Woman Evolve with Sarah Jakes Roberts - Successful Failure

Episode Date: February 25, 2026

Kevin Fredericks, better known as KevOnStage, shares with Sarah Jakes Roberts how a potential failure resulted in success following his game-changing strategy. With pre-orders low but audacity at an all-time high, Kev shows: if at first you don't succeed, dust yourself off and try again. Together, they explore resilience—asking, is it something you're born with, or something you evolve into? We ain't gone hold you, this episode had us rolling! But if fear's got you playing small and your faith needs a little deconstructing, lock in. This is your kind of carrying on!

The reluctant king theory is the person who doesn't want to be king needs to be king. Okay. And the person who doesn't want to be king, doesn't want to be big, is actually the person who's best suited to lead people. You know, some people want to help you as long as you stay at or below them. I just don't rock like that and that's why I sleep well, because I ain't hating on nobody and I ain't worried about nobody. When it's time for bed, I go to bed, quit because I'm free and peaceful.

What's up family? It's your girl. Sarah Jakes Roberts and we are back with another episode of the Woman Evolve podcast. What's going on with you? How you feeling? I am feeling like I deserve a cookie because I worked out today and I know you're like, girl, you work out. She don't work out. The work does her. You understand what I'm saying? She doesn't work out. But I worked out today and I went on a little walk and I just feel like I deserve a cookie because that's the stage of my life. I don't know. Well, I do know what happened. My rhythm has been thrown off. I'm trying to get back in the saddle. But also trying to try and to to be like patient with myself and all of the things. It's just a lot going on, which actually ties into this week's Mind Your Business question. So before I like, I'm not going to call it trauma dump, but before I tell you what I've had to come to in order to get to where I am right now, I want to play this week's question. So let's get into it. Hi, Sarah. My name's Kishana.

It's really funny that I'm calling because I've been thinking about it for a while. But first of all, thank you for your plan. platform and your voice. So let me just get into my business. I know that you've mentioned that you've gone back to school and though I'm currently taking a break looking at my computer like, what did I get myself into? And so my question is, how do you push through to get the hard things done? Like when it comes to your relationship with God and how you approach? you know your schoolwork and everything like what does that look like because I am struggling and I am doing my best to you know consult with God and everything that I do specifically with the school thing but your girl is struggling so I would really love to hear your perspective and maybe some tips on something that you do to kind of push it through so thanks none of my business. Hope to hear from you. Bye. I love this question so bad because I have had to

assess and reassess and assess again as I have been on my school journey. So for those of you who don't know, I have gone back to complete my bachelor's degree in human development and family studies. I am also taking a theology course at Princeton. It's three classes total, which, you know, when I was in school, like when I tried to go to school the first time, I was taking 15 hours, one semester, 18 hours. So it feels like three is not that much. But when you consider the amount of children, responsibilities, businesses, sermons, all of the things that I have to do, I feel like I am taking 28 hours of school.

And I am sometimes very overwhelmed. And I have had to, the reason why I said assess and reassessing, assess, it's because each course has its own rhythm, its own mandate for assignments, for quizzes, for testing. It requires something different from me. And this is the first time I've taken three. I've usually taken two, but I'm going to tell you last semester, I was actually taking two courses.

And one of the courses, pretty traditional. There was like reading assignments, lectures you listen to, homework, writing assignments, and then you would take a quiz. I had one class last year where you basically, did nothing but read. She would give you like three things to read in a PowerPoint. And then you took a test, like not on that material, but like in four weeks you take a test on the things that you read. That's not the way that I learn. I have to have an opportunity to apply, you know, the information that I am receiving into something that feels less, less high stakes in order for me to really understand the concepts and

have an opportunity to try and express them in my own language. And so I dropped that course. I did. So when you talk about like how do I handle all of the things, I'm constantly asking myself, one, I go to really understand what I have signed myself up for. I need a minute of observation and assessment. I need to understand the rhythm that this course is going to require, the demand on my time that is going to make and how I can show up in my life in order to fulfill those obligations. And so there is a minute where I'm just kind of like taking things day by day. And then once I kind of get a good handle on what it's going to take for me to do it, I have to consider what responsibilities am I balancing that I'm going to have to reassess,

delegate, what expectations do people have of me that they're going to have to modify in order for me to accomplish this goal. The problem that I have found, this is what I have found with myself, is that I want to take on new things but remain the same person. I want to show up in the same way that I've always shown up for everyone in my life, and I want to continue to show up in the same way that I have shown up health-wise, physical-wise, nutrition. Like, I want to do all of the things the way that I have always done them while always adding

something new. And that is the fastest way to depletion, burnout, and feeling resentful and overwhelmed in your life. Because the reality is that when you are adding in something new, that is meant to change you. I'm literally retaining and consuming information that is changing the way that I see the world. It's changing my vocabulary. It's literally changing me. And so to sign up for something that you know is going to change you, but then want to remain the same so that there aren't, so that you can minimize the amount of disruptions in your life is unfair. And so I have had to admit that I don't want to tell the kids to leave me alone so that I can study. I still want to finish in time.

I can watch a movie with my husband. I still want to preach on these days. So I've had to admit that I'm not going to be able to do all of the things that I have always done the way that I have always done them and take on this new responsibility. And in some instances, I have to grieve the life that I had before I said yes. And I have to acknowledge that this season of my life will not allow me to do that. And then I have to be honest about what it is that I need in order to accomplish X, Y, and Z. As a leader and an entrepreneur, I have the ability to create my own schedule within limitations because there are still certain things that have to be done regardless. And so allowing myself windows of studying, allowing myself windows of meetings, windows of

email has required me to be really intentional about my time management. The other thing I will say is this. Oh, and then sometimes I'm doing homework until six or seven, 30 until the evening and I'm redirecting my children to my husband sometimes or I'm telling them, hey, if you stop interrupting me, I could get this done faster and then I could do your hair before you go to bed. I'm literally direct quote from my life. The other thing I've had to do is this, I have to go to sleep. I have to get in the bed. I haven't been on social media and it's done my mind well, but it's also just been a reminder to me that like I, I, I, I, I, I haven't been on social media. I, oftentimes avoid my responsibilities by scrolling and not having that distraction has allowed me to,

when my day is done, to like, I can put my phone down and I can sleep or I can read and I can get in the bed earlier. My rhythm gets thrown off when I am not, when I'm not keeping my sleep rhythm, a priority in my life. In the perfect world, if I could be down by like, if I could be in the bed at 10 and down, I'm going to say no later than 11. I can be a good person. When I, I start staying up until 1 o'clock in the morning because I want to get ahead of my reading or I didn't want to disappoint anybody. So I've put my schoolwork on the back end or my prayer end on the back end. I can still get up at 445, 4.5 o'clock workout.

I can still get up at 615 to do the kid things. But I am not the best person to be around. The attitude is very funky, very funky monkey. And so I've had to make some choices and decisions. I recently have felt convicted because there's a lot of reading. in all of my courses this year, a lot, a lot of reading. And I've been functioning with this mentality

that I'm just going to finish all of the reading and then I can do the assignments. And I'll finish all of the readings and then I'm reading for fun outside of this, like a hermeneutics book, which is just about contextualizing scripture and interpretation of scripture. And wow, that sounded really lame

that I'm reading that for fun, but I also did read a Kennedy Ryan book so like not too much. But I'm reading that. for fun. And so I've been kind of putting on the back burner what is a part of just my own spiritual edification and a study time with God. Like I'm going to finish my school reading and then I'll have like the next few days to really dig deep into my deeper level of devotion and study time. And I felt conviction today about not prioritizing that devotion time and thinking that it is

something that I can do once I've finished everything else because I've noticed my life is slipping in a few ways. And by life slipping, I mean, I just have noticed my sleep is slipping, my tolerance is slipping. And I can feel like when I start to get a little bit resentful, when people are asking me to do things that are totally within the realm of what is justifiable based off of who I am in their life and what they have come to expect for me. And that's one of my first signs that I'm like, I'm out of alignment and I'm not synced with God. And so From a spiritual faith standpoint, I have to remind myself that what's more important than me getting the degree, what's more important than me, making sure that the businesses are functioning properly and that we're aligned with the potential and the opportunities that are in front of us and that the ministry is also continuing to be relevant and a good steward over the people and resource that we have was most important in all of the, then all of those things are my integrity to my relationship with God.

And when my integrity with my relationship with God begins to drift, I have to be willing to lay all of those things down. And so, yeah, I think that that pretty much sums it up for me. Assess and reassess and be patient with yourself. So we were in Los Angeles and we were up two nights while we were in, LA. One night my husband literally laid hands on hundreds of people. We were at the church until three o'clock in the morning. And then the other night, I preached. And then we got on the plane. We didn't, I didn't sleep on the plane. We got home at four o'clock in the morning. I didn't

go to bed until 6 a.m. And those two nights, really, I believe, kind of threw off my entire rhythm of rest and recovery. And so from working out to nutrition to school work, I've been working from a deficit and sometimes you just need a hard reset. If you can, if you're in, if you have the capacity to do something like take a day off to kind of recalibrate your life, to rest, to ask for additional support. Maybe it's just a few hours, but you have to take a minute and take inventory of your life. What am I doing that no longer fits? What expectations are going to have to change? Expectations that I have for myself, maybe expectations that others have of me, and how can I bring them into helping to support me?

as I evolve and grow into someone who is pursuing her dreams and pursuing the potential of what God has for her. So, yeah, I hope that helps. If I would have taken a moment, let me see if I could. Oh, yes. Okay, there's a moment in scripture where Moses goes back to Midian and he's telling his father-in-law all of the things that have taken place. and his father-in-law gives him some instruction about really creating structure for the people so that everything's not falling on him.

Jesus has the disciples, and Jesus gives the disciples a task to feed the 5,000, but then he gives them a structure for how to accomplish the task that he has given them. And so if you want to go back to your relationship with God, like what are some things that I can be praying? What are some things that I need to be sensitive? Ooh, I got something else sensitive to.

as the Lord one, qualify God. Is it something that I'm pursuing because it's a part of your purpose, your destiny, your identity for my life? Or is it something that I'm doing from a place of like insecurity, fear, whatever? Maybe you don't know the answer to that and you just ask God to make it clear.

If it becomes clear that God, you know, that this is a part of what God has for your life, then ask God what structure is it going to take for me to accomplish this task? And then the Holy Spirit, right? We always talk about the, When I grew up, the Holy Spirit won't about nothing but speaking in tongues and shouting, right? But as I have grown in my own relationship with God, I recognize that it gives us the ability to have self-control or discipline.

And so, Lord, what discipline am I going to need in order to make this happen? And can you allow me to experience that discipline? What patience am I going to have to have in order to make this happen? Patience with myself, patience with others. And so there's a few things that you can take into your walk with the Lord as you weigh this. But thank you so much for your question because it has allowed me to pull fresh from my own conviction and my own need to realign and reassess. And so I hope that it helps you. I'm really pretty excited about this week's episode.

Part of the reason why is because so we recorded this, it was right before the holiday break. And by our conversation, you'll be able to see that we were both pretty tired. and just trying to figure out what happened to people taking time down during the holiday season. But we had this moment in the conversation that was really, I think, edifying, I guess, for me.

I felt seen and that as people who navigate having a lot of eyeballs on our social media, our work, and also a lot of responsibility and accountability that comes with that, we had a moment of just like really talking about how that shows up in our um in our processing and what it feels like to be in moments when you are when you've disappointed people and that

disappointment is being expressed on social media in ways that can often feel hurtful or harmful to you it actually kind of reminds me growing up um you guys are just my friends and I just talk to you but growing up, I grew up my father's Bishop T.D. Jakes and, you know, he's a mega pastor. And this was, you know, before think pieces and hot takes on social media, there were still a lot of people who took issue with mega churches, these big churches. And I'm a kid, right? I'm like eight or nine years old. And so I'm trying to process, like, how do you keep from being a megachurch?

Like, I'm literally trying to figure out one, because I think I'm always just listening to what people say and trying to figure out how do you mitigate some of those issues and complaints? And it's like, you know, maybe we should cap it. Maybe no one, we should lock the doors. And no one can come in after this point. Like, how do you keep from becoming a megachurching? And I realized I was youthful in my thinking. But as I think about my own life, it's kind of like, how do you keep from becoming an influencer?

Because I never, I'll join social media when everyone joined social media. I had a Facebook page when you had to have a dot edu email address to get on Facebook and I got on Instagram because all my friends were on Instagram and we were just sharing our lives and sharing our things and no one was really checking for me. I didn't, you know, like that. And then it kind of grew and people who were connected to my journey were following me. And I think that part of even me being off of social media has allowed me to realize that like I've never been a, author, a pastor, a preacher, a podcaster without having the immediate feedback from people.

And it's crippling in many ways because if you aren't careful, which I haven't always been careful, you find yourself trying to validate whether or not something was good or worthy based off of the responses of people. And being off of social media has allowed me an opportunity to recalibrate why I'm doing what I'm doing, and what success looks like outside of having feedback from either feedback or criticism from other people. And it was encouraging to have a conversation with someone who is navigating similar waters outside of that. I think we just had an incredible conversation about growing up in church and finding our own path to faith and God and grief and relationships. I think you guys are really going to enjoy it. it really just restored my love for podcasting in a way that I didn't know that I needed at the end of the year because your girl was tired.

And then I was like, this feels like the types of conversations that matter. And so I hope you agree. Let's get into it. Can we talk about how you went from talking about like your book release and the marketing behind it and turning things up to like just landing on the New York Times bestsellers? It's like, can we unpack that? What was the process? What was the journey? The journey was abject fear.

First, I was like, man, I hit the New York Times best set a list the first time with my wife. And I always thought that book would do better because she is their own person with her own audience and people love her. But this was going to be by myself. And my publishers were like, hey, man, it's not working, brother. It's not working. So I was like super embarrassed talking it out with my wife. And she was like, you need to switch up your marketing. You know, like you need to switch up your angle.

It's like you're funny, but that's not the reason people need to buy this book. You need to tell them what you know, which kind of felt like bragging. But I really struggle with that. But I took her at her word. I made a video within that hour and like switched up the programming. And I ended up on the list. And I was genuinely surprised. But I have learned time and time again, listen to women.

Listen to especially your wife Like your wife is designed to help you And vice versa, don't get me wrong But she has nothing but my best interests At hand when she says that So I listened to her and I ended up on the list again So shout out to her That one is all her

Because it was not going to happen If I didn't listen to her so I'm very grateful I feel I love the pivot that you took though I feel like when you are writing a book, people think the hardest part about writing the book is writing the book. It's really not the hardest part. Right.

But that part is hard. That part's not cute. Like, don't get me wrong. But having to tell people about the book and convince them that it's worth them reading. And it takes just like time after time after. It's really a challenge. And I personally, I think that's the hardest part for me.

Because when I finish writing the book, there's a part of me that's finished with the book. For sure. I close that laptop, I'm done with it. So I don't understand why I'm now talking about it all of the time. Yes, I agree with you wholeheartedly. It is hard, but marketing it is infinitely harder. I'm no stranger to hard work, but like getting people to reach in their wallet and pull out their credit card, especially in this economy, is harder and harder.

And, like, I was just making people laugh. And they were like, yeah, people were commenting like, oh, yeah, that's a funny video, but nothing about that said, write the book until you did this. So yeah, my publisher's like, You want to write another book? And I was like, absolutely not. I don't have another press run of that magnitude in me. God bless you. Thank you guys so much.

Go with God. I'm in that crossroad right now. I have a meeting with my publisher after our call today. Because I like there, I have an idea that I want to write a book about. But then I see y'all out here pushing these books. And I'm like, but do I mean it that bad? Is it that important to me? Or is it a substact?

Maybe it's a substact Maybe it's an Instagram carousel Maybe I just jot my thoughts down You swipe through and then we all go home Do you feel like You know I've seen your journey like from the outside looking in I feel like in many ways And I mean this

I feel like we've grown up together in a lot of ways Because we were both on Twitter around the same time And just kind of like doing whatever I feel like it's difficult to even pinpoint the strategies behind your success, the development of your platform, your brain, your voice, because it has happened so fast

that I feel like writing a book like this requires that you like really dissect, okay, like how did this happen? Because on one hand, it feels like it happened fast. But on the other hand, like there was some strategy that went into it. Yeah, absolutely. I think when you're in it,

like living through it, you're not really able to see what's happening a lot of times for me. It's like I'm just figuring out how to sell these tickets, how to get a job, how to move to LA, how to get a TV show made. And for me, I'm not even saying that I'm proud of this, I'm terrible about looking backwards. Like, I feel like the things I learned, I automatically apply, but I don't look at whole things and do like full SWAT analysis. I like brush it off whether it's a failure or a success.

but writing a book, not only do you have to remember it, you have to go into great detail about it and you have to kind of really analyze it. So in some ways, analyzing your failures is not comfortable, but I think it is what makes people great. I saw this interesting video that was saying the difference between people who are really successful,

people who are not successful is not the ideas. He was saying we all have good ideas. successful people just execute more of them, so they fell at a higher clip and they find the ones that are successful faster. People who are not successful tend to dwell on their ideas, rarely execute them so they don't even know if it's going to be good or bad and they finally do it. They don't do another one. And I think that's so true for me. Like, I'll take an L quickly and often, and I'm not afraid to take an L. I think a lot of times we feel fear failure.

No one in any industry succeeds continuously straight up. You eventually plateau. You hit dips. There's no filmmaker. There's no artists. I was just talking to one of my employees about this. He was like, we're going to keep going to the top like Pixar. I was like, Pixar and took some else.

Like their first nine or ten movies were great. But they hit a moment where they were like, oh, we don't know what we're doing right now. and then they hit up failure again. I think being open to that allows you to try more things and fail at more things, but also succeed at more things. But I think we're so afraid of the failure aspect that it kind of becomes crippling and the thought of failure prevents people from trying at all. And that's the only thing I can't do. I can't just accept failure and lose. That just the dude cannot abide.

I can take an L, but I can't just not know. Do you think that's a part of just like having a growth mindset? I totally agree with you. You know, I've got a startup and I'm a founder. And a lot of times I'm bringing in people who I feel like have raw talent or they have a passion for something. And I'm like, go for it. Just try it. And they're like, but what if I'm not good or I don't want to fail?

And my kind of thing is like, well, I don't know what I'm doing either, to be honest. Like as your leader, I don't know what I'm doing either. So like there's grace here for you to figure things out. Do you feel like there's just this innate ability to have that level of resiliency and, you know, it's not carefree because you do care or is it something that can be developed? I have had this thought. This is so interesting that you ask me that I'm trying to decide if it is innate or can you develop it. I've talked to friends who are like, you know, some people, and he didn't mean this derogatory. He was like, some people don't want to be the guy or the girl.

Some people just want, this is the example he used. Some people just want to be a night shift manager at Waffle House, have a double wide, a pickup truck, a dog, and a shotgun. And that's all they want out of life. And them not wanting more isn't bad. I think some people like me and probably you, there's an unsettling part of us. with like not pushing forward and trying.

And then there's other people who have that there but are just crippled by fear. I think the big difference is fear. That's honestly what I think. Fear can lead to you not trying. It can also lead to you saying, I'm actually okay with this because fear also works as a safety net. We think it's just like, oh bad, I'm afraid, I'm scared.

But fear is also like your body wants, your brain wants to keep your body safe. And if I sat here for the rest of my life, I would be safe. But I wouldn't live. And yes, when I leave my house, I can get a car accident, I can get struck by lightning,

but I can also go to the beach or go to Spain or meet a new friend or try something. You know what I'm saying? So I think, I don't think it's an eight. I think if people decide, all right,

I'm not going to be led by fear anymore, then I think they can move forward. I think some people are born like that, And I think some people are, you know, paralyzed by fear. And others are going to break through that and try. And the key is you really got to try again. Sometimes you just kind of get beat down. And then you're just like, I'm sick of trying.

I'm over love. I'm over business. I'm over ministry. Whatever it is. I just can't take another ale. And I think that's what takes people who have it, may have lost it to losing it forever. Is there just like I'm not,

as long as you're willing to try again, I don't think there's anything you can't do. But once you lose the willingness to try, I think then it becomes low-key the end. I don't mean to be so bleak, but I think people settle in and be like, you know, I got my kids going. They find like the joy in others,

rooting for others. But I don't think that fire ever really goes away truly in you. I think we just kind of forget about it. and I just can't live like that. I think part of my problem is whenever I finish something, I'm always like, we could have done better.

Like it could be amazing. And I'm like, yeah, but where wasn't it amazing? And I'm going to do it one more time. I'm not going to say I'm doing it forever. I'm going to do it one more time and I'm going to do it one more time perfectly.

And then I won't do it again. And then I do that one more time. And I'm like, you know what? You know what? Actually? I think we could probably tweak this just a little bit and I think that that's, but I do feel like because when we tour, I'm always messing

with like the programming and stuff and then when we hit the sweet spot, like I can be satisfied. But until it, and this is what I tell myself, right? And I'm a church person. I had to, I have to spiritualize it. I'm like, it's not what God showed me. Until it's what God showed me, we're going to have to keep doing. It's not there yet.

That's not what he dropped in my spirit. It's close, it's close, but it's not what he dropped in my spirit. For sure. I am the same way, it's so interesting. I am the same way you got to like, you always want to make it better. And it will never be perfect ever. And that's the strive for us. Because then we'll take all the learnings and start from something brand new scratch

where we can really mess it up all over again. He'd be like, oh, this, now look, I didn't really mess this up. Now, I got to do this at least three, four more times until I get there. So interesting you say that because I was at the first woman Evolve in Denver. Melissa spoke and I watched it, you know, as a man, you know, I watched it go from, you know, I think it was at the church in like surrounding areas in Denver to like arenas. And I think you were probably like, but we could be at stadiums, you know, if we just did this and that, we probably could do stadiums or we could probably do it twice a year, you know,

and the outside looking in, it's like, yo, Sarah is killing it, y, y, Sarah is killing it, y'all. Like, look at how big this is. But I do think, like, you know, I think God puts that in us as well, though. I think certain people, he puts that, that insatiable desire for newness, creativity, greatness. You know, I was talking to Kirk Franklin about this, and I thought I was unique in this. When I am winding down a project, I lose interest. And the next thing, it's like the next shiny thing is like, oh, I got to build this up.

You know, and I think in that perpetual state of motion, you're always going to be finding the mistakes because you're always doing something new. And even when you're applying learnings from previous things, the world is now changing. So even if you did it perfectly, right, last year, now the world has changed a little bit. So perfect for last year won't be perfect for the new year because people have changed. The economy's changing. The world is changing how people see you is, whatever the case is. So that's why I think we're always tweaking, trying, learning and all that stuff because it's, we live on a spinning rock.

So you'll never be perfectly sat down and save. You know what's crazy. I was actually thinking about this because we're hoping that we can get Melissa in 2026. and I was thinking about how she came to the first one. And I have to say, I knew what I wanted woman evolved to be. Like, I knew I wanted, obviously, faith and spirituality is such a huge part of my life that I wanted it to be a space where it was easy to relate and connect to God, no matter what you'd gone through and what your background was. But I also wanted to balance that with this reality that, like, we're women and we're going through all of these different stages and phases of life. But I feel like I wasn't necessarily chasing bigness as much.

as I was, there was, there's a feeling I really can't describe it. There's a feeling that I wanted to have in the room that I just, and there's a certain kind of person who I felt like should be able to walk into the room that I felt like what were their deterrence that would keep them from there. And I think it kind of grew

on accident and a way that I'm not always very comfortable with, which makes me want to ask you this question. Really? Oh, oh. Sarah, Jake's Robert. Don't get me started. Don't get me started. We will turn into therapy. Okay.

I really don't like speaking and I really don't like being in front of people. Well, what a professor of you show. I tell the team all the time, if I could create the rooms but not like leave them, I would feel more comfortable. I think you, I think I've been trying to figure out why I think you're Neo

and the chosen one. Okay. Yes. It's the reluctant. Are you familiar with the reluctant king theory? No. The reluctant king theory is the person who doesn't want to be king needs to be king. Because the person who wants to be king wants to be king for the wrong reasons.

Okay. And the person who doesn't want to be king, doesn't want to be big, is actually the person who's best suited to lead people. And I think what you said is like who you want, and I think that's why your appeal. I'm so glad we're doing it. know you want to talk to me, but I wanted to talk to you. I don't trick you in making you think this is about you. And I was like, I would love it. The book is a good thing.

On Christmas, mind you. On Christmas, basically. I've been thinking about why you, why people are drawn to you. And I think it's because you welcome people in a way that the church hasn't always made people feel welcome. And I think that is the, I use my brother as an example. He was a full-blown. sinner. Children everywhere.

Lissiviousness. I don't really know what lasciviousness means. It's fancy that. I'm going to look it up when we're finished. So good. I feel like he was lasciviousness boy. And he went from coming to church at

we ended around 2 o'clock at 1.45. This is over four years. Coming at 145 to 130 to 12 to 1130 to years later, he was the superintendent of the Sunday school from full on sin. And it's because our church. just welcomed him.

Everybody knew what kind of like he was living. But every Sunday was, oh, good to see you, hugs. He went from the back to the front to facing the people. And I think you have that sort of come on in, get yourself something to eat, regardless of where you came from or where you're going. Get yourself something to eat. Take those shoes off, get you a towel. You know what I mean?

Like that's why I think I can see now why you don't want to be big, why you don't want to be in front of people, you know, how people can be, especially you being the limelight from birth. almost. But I think that's also why you are uniquely positioned to do what you're doing. Yay. Yeah. That makes me so.

You know, you know, I think I just, it just, I just, I just. I just. It was so real. I feel you. Because you don't always want to be. chosen person because it's not easy it's heavy you got to carry burdens nobody else ever knows

about you have less and less people to talk to them about you got to be quiet while people talk about you and satellite your name so it's like hey man I just want to be in the back and listen I don't want to be in that but that's why because you don't want it it's why and you can't choose

to be what you're chosen that's why God chose you you didn't choose this you just got to walk in and I'm sorry he knew it He formed you before you were in the womb. He knew you. That's on him. I'm sorry, I can't help.

I wish I could because I got my own burden to bear. I don't want to do all this stuff I got to do, but somebody got to do it. Well, this is taking a turn. Don't tell you that much. This is taking a turn. You know, here's the problem. And I didn't let you get to the question you wanted to ask me, so I hope you didn't forget it. I have it in my mind, though, so I hope I don't lose it.

I just want to button this up by saying, you know, I don't. do think being subject to people's thoughts and opinions in the way that we are, especially on social media, I think whether it's good or bad, that it's unsafe for me. And I think that there's a part of me, especially like with what I've gone through in my teen pregnancies and being talked about, when people talk good about me, it's like, oh my gosh, they love me, I'm accepted, there's nothing wrong with me. And you can't build your esteem on that either. And then when they talk badly about you, like, see, you y'all had no business doing this. So, it's like, it's not, It's like you really can't win leaning into either.

So it forces me to kind of go inward and to reclaim, know who I am and God and to trust that. But then it makes me not want to show up at all because I had to work so hard privately to figure out who I am, to be okay with who I am. To then take that and present it to people without needing people as hard. I, I, you are spot on. Jerry Seinfeld said, you hear the cheers and you hear the booze. and they're both lies. Yeah. You have to tune them both out

because the people who cheer for you one day will be the same people booing for you. Yeah. And the people who boo for you might cheer and the people who talk about what you are doing are likely, possibly doing the same thing. So you really do have to be solid. And I used to yearn for the public's approval.

But when you yearn for the public's approval, you are susceptible to their disdain. For sure. I had to be like, oh, I can't go looking for tweets that support me because you're going to find somebody that cave on stage is ugly and he ain't funny. Okay, well, dang, I was looking for, okay, wow, that's in here too, huh? So let me just focus on the work, do what makes me happy, have a solid base of family and friends unrelated to electricity.

Yeah. If I was no, if Kev on stage got canceled or whatever that means, I could still come to your house and play Uno. For sure. You got to have your group chat and your sound base because the internet will make you feel like the whole world hates you. Oh my gosh. It'll feel like the entire globe. The entire everybody.

Everywhere you go, people talk and the more algorithmic this gets, the harder it is to avoid because you don't have to search your name anymore. You don't have to look for it. Usually you had to go search your name or follow these people. Now the album is just like, this person hates you. What do you think about that? I have on TikTok. If anyone ever got on my 4U page on TikTok, they would just swear, I don't know anything about Jesus.

I don't want any inspiration. You all did a great cover of greater-dive faithfulness. I'll never hear it. Because I don't want you all to think that I want to see anything about me. I can't do anything about it on threads. Instagram already got me. TikTok is the one place where I can say one-two, one-two-three release them. no much.

You, Mecca, I get, I be, that's, you know what I mean, keep me, that's about this close,

that's about where I'm going to land on the FYP because I choose not, I don't, it's not where I thrive. It's just not where I thrive. And the thing is,

I feel you, I was telling my wife, I'm, I'm gonna have to eventually get off of all these because I know. I can't, you're not built to take it.

Yeah. Human beings are not built to take that much. negativity. We're not designed that way. And it's going to be a sad day and I will miss it but I can't take it either. I think people think we are uniquely positioned

to take anger. No, no, no, no. It hurt my feelings too, y'all. Yes, I saw that. Yes, that hurt. My feelings bad. What you mean? I'm not special. I was just like you. I went to high school, middle school. I want to be friends. I don't want to be like. I'm hurt. You

got me. Yes, I saw your thread. Yes, I saw your ticket. No, I promise you I saw. And then you know what else? You know what else really blows me? Is when people be like, I don't care what they say about you. Are they saying things about me? Because I wasn't aware.

Did I? I don't care what they. They could never make me hate you. So they're trying, man. They're trying to make you hate me then. I didn't know. Let me tell you, when we left Woman Evolve in Atlanta, it was probably one of the most, like, powerful

experiences we'd ever had. And it just, everything was right. We downsized in order to go to State Farm Arena, but I felt like God maximized the vision. And it was just beautiful beginning to end. I could have never been prepared to be

tossed to and fro on the internet. I just wasn't prepared. Over an offering appeal, you know, and which is kind of, you know, I think my sensitivity about like, you got to be responsible, you got to be this, I'm like, okay, so I hated that. Then where them fans at is what I'm getting tossed.

I didn't even know. I thought we was just, I'll be honest, I haven't heard more than 15 seconds. And you know what, my bad, I'll listen to the whole thing next time, but I just could have never guessed that that was going to be the thing that got me. That was, but, you know, God is faithful. I got to get you on my not my best morning podcast where we talk about all the things where the world dragged us and what we learned from it. Because I, you know, and sometimes I see, you see your friends out there and you want to jump out there and help them, but it'd be like, well, then they're going to get on me.

I already took my lashes. So you know what you do? Because I know you can see when I like the post. So I just want you to know I am in need standing with you. Because they're going to jump on me. It's not my turn now. It's going to be my turn again. I'm still healing.

But I want you to know. I hit you on the side. I'll text you on the side and DM you will be like, bro, that's crazy. Oh, no. I can't jump out there. You're covered. You're covered for sure.

I went before the throne and I can't stop anything. Who am I? I do. I don't want to draw their attention to me because they'll be like, I know you ain't talking. We still better. And look at you all linked up together and see this is what happens. That's not going to help anyone.

It's like, have you seen that Donald Glover meme where he comes and then the world's on fire, he's just like, ooh, that's where it feels like. It's the worst when you didn't see it coming. At least if I knew I, I misstepped, I'm like, okay, they're going to kill me for this. When you didn't even know what you did, you go on threads or TikTok, you're like, oh,

I'm in trouble. What I do? I'm in trouble. I didn't. I'm so afraid to be. myself on the internet. I used to want to be in a sorority. I dropped out of college.

I'm glad they didn't get me on that. They'd snatch my letters up. You better denounce right now. I never did it. You denounce the thought that she wanted. I denounce the fact that it was in my heart to do. I'll tell you that much. I'll tell you that right now.

I didn't do it. But it was a part of what I probably would have done had I graduated, but I didn't. But it was. And so. I don't even know what they're talking about in there, but it sound like it ain't for me. They wanted to make me an honorary something. I said, y'all ain't fin to get me.

You ain't fin to get me. Nope. Y'all didn't get the letter. Y'all canceled. Your coverage has been canceled. Nobody's interested. Amen. Amen.

This podcast has gone off the rails. It was needed. At least on my behalf, it was needed. You need some people who know what you're talking about because otherwise you feel like you're crazy. And I'd be like, am I crazy? Because I didn't do. Because in your mind, you really haven't changed much.

No. But somehow the perception of you changes and you don't get a notice like, oh, people feel differently about you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're like, oh, wait, dang, I thought I was with y'all. And it's like, oh, no, you with them now. Ain't nobody told me. I didn't know that you felt differently about me. So I was unaware.

I thought we was all doing this. So it is a unique situation that I don't wish on people. It's hard to explain, harder to live through. But I am still grateful that God has allowed me. I just felt like I should say that. I didn't even have the even say it's Sarah. I don't know. I'm just grateful that God.

I didn't know. I had my friend Candice. My friend Candice told me she was like, I think that you are in a different lane now. You know what I mean? She's like after the Atlanta thing, she was like, I think that you're just, but I don't, the thing is, I don't want to be on the highway. The thing is, I want out the car. But thank you God for all.

And then there's the balance too, right? For sure. Because also, thank you God. Also, sometimes I wake up, I have my really early morning calls and I'd be like, man, I hate waking up, but not like that. Not like that. I do want to see tomorrow. Let me be clear. I love life. I do what, don't you take my wife away? I don't want you to take this away. I just want to complain a little bit. Just a little bit. Okay, so this is what I was going to ask you. And this can I can kind of force back into the book conversation. Maybe. We'll see.

Do you think that that is our church religious upbringings that makes us always have to like balance, even 16. with like you gotta stay humble. You know what I mean? Like is this idea of like, yeah, you can't complain because you gotta be grateful. So does it leave room for you to even have a human experience? And I think about this and I know that you, well, I don't know, but from the outside looking and I will say,

it looks like you've done some element of deconstructing as it relates to your faith. And I feel like for me, I've done my own work. And I feel like I have really had to lean into this reality that like Jesus really was 100% divine, but all, also 100% human. You know what I mean? He grieved in the garden.

He got frustrated. He got upset. And I think my disconnect with church growing up was like, if I couldn't do it perfectly, I didn't think I could do it at all. But this idea that like we have this mediator who understands what it's like to be human. So you can be human and still stretch towards what wholeness looks like through our relationship with Jesus. But I'm just curious.

Like, do you think religion has robbed us of humanity? 1,000% I go so far to say religion and blackness because in my life those were low-key one and the same

but pride comes before the fall you can't have no haughty spirit and then at the same time my grandma like you need you ain't got to do all that it don't take all that

so it's like that's the black upbringing plus religion and when you grow up as churches I did those were inextricably linked so I remember one time

my boy who was an atheist I was thanking God for something that he did this is way back before I was even kept on stage I was just like I don't remember what I did but I was thanking God and he was like yeah you should also thank yourself and I was like what no I'm nobody I'm nothing he was like yeah but you did the hard work and I was like I rebuke you in the name of Jesus and the name of Jesus

is a spirit on you because you're trying to take God's credit you know that's that's for him and I do struggle with that because I'm like I feel like and obviously I've done the work, but I, I, I, God has allowed me to, to do this. And I don't know where gratefulness and humbleness, is that me truly being humble? Is it a, is it a fake humble? As we used to say in the church, am I being humble? Because sometimes, you know, I had the benefit of being really in the church,

not just a member like I worked in the church, my family was there. So I saw the position, the way a pastor had to peer to his flock and I'm not blaming the pastor. Sometimes the people put you on a pedestal and they rob you of being a regular person if you wanted to. So there was a version of you that had to be for the people and then there was a version of you that truly was. So sometimes they had

to be humble so people wouldn't be like, oh, you this and you that. So I don't even know where the line between humbleness, gratefulness, it seems blurry sometimes. And I don't ever want to feel like I'm upstaging God. And I also

so am truly believing that the things that happen in my life are divine, right? So it's like I don't, I didn't, that's why I rebuke my atheist friend, because I'm like, you ain't going to give, I couldn't have orchestrated. I can do the work. Like, I can work hard, but I couldn't have orchestrated things that happened in my life, the way they happened in the way that they happened. That to me is still God. And I still believe in God until your deconstructing point, I realize, and I do.

have a lot of grace for my pastors and preachers and everybody, because I don't think anybody had ill intentions. I think in the same way my parents were doing the best with what they can and what they knew, I think my pastors were too. They didn't all have the knowledge that we now have. They didn't all go to seminary, so they were preaching what they believed. And then my parents and grandparents were reinforcing what they believed. And sometimes people just don't want to challenge that because if I look into this one thing, the whole thing might unravel. So people would rather just not question anything.

I'm just not built like that. And I never was. Even as a kid, I got in trouble. I grew up apostolic because they were telling me, you know, Acts 238 is the only way you can get to Christ. That's it. There ain't any other way. Acts 238, everybody going to learn about Jesus.

And I asked the question, I said, what about a kid in China who's being taught the same thing about, you know, Buddha? And he's being told everybody's going to come to Buddha. And if you don't come to Buddha, then you're going to hell. And they were like, if you want to be a sinner, just be a sinner. Okay, that's not an answer at all. Yeah.

I'm genuinely curious because I only learned about Jesus because this is the family I was born into. And this is how we were born. What if I was born in India or Russia where this religion is dominant? So I think I deconstructed at 12, but I didn't have no internet until I was 26. So that's when I try to understand. I think a lot of times people think deconstructing is like, for me, it's not a way to go away from church. No. To me it's about I want to understand God for myself

for real, not just what was imparted to me because once I found out my pastor, one of my pastors growing up, my first pastor, he was one of those pastors where everything is a sin. Card games is a sin. Going to the movies is a sin. Women wearing pants is a sin. Women wearing makeup is a sin.

Everything. It was Bobby Boucher. Everything's a sin. And I found out, but I could never understand why was the movie the sin or was the movie theater a sin because the drive-thru was kind of a gray area, but we could absolutely watch the movies on VHS. I didn't find out until I was a man. My grandma told me, oh, the reason he started saying that is because his son had sex in movie theater. And then he started preaching that it was a sin. And I was like, well, I was nine and I just

wanted to watch the line kids. That ain't got nothing to do with us. So I think it was just trying to understand why things happened. And the final thing, because I know I've been rambling, I think I think I understood God a lot more, just for me, Kevin, not everybody's thing. Clarify, clarify, before they clip me out of context. I understood God a little bit more, a lot more when I had kids. Because I have two children, me and my wife are together. We have both of those children. These two children couldn't be any more different than if they were two children from opposite ends of the earth. They're both our DNA. But how to praise them, how to discipline them, their likes, their dislikes, how they approach food, life, friendships. totally different. And I remember thinking, if I have to love these two boys differently so that they feel love the same from me, then how could God with billions of children raise them all the exact same when we're all over the place? We have our own fears, thoughts, experiences. And I think that's why a personal relationship with God is so important because he can truly understand you because he created you versus when I was growing up I feel like I was trying to fit into this box of like

this is what a Christian is and it's this and this and this and only this and I feel like that doesn't allow you to experience God truly because that's that that's what works for you and I'm not of course clarifying I'm not talking about abuse and puns you know what I'm saying like I feel like you got to say that stuff because you say he ain't say abuse was off the table that's assumed that's assumed I'm not talking about that. But I think that for me is a way to bring was a way to bring me closer to God because it's hard for me to continue to love

something that I don't truly understand. And the more I understand it, the more I love it. Same thing with Melissa. I'm not deconstructing her, but I'm always trying to learn and understand her better so that I could love her better. Bars, Kev, thank you. We're going to clip that, make sure she gets it. We will attack her.

It's true. I don't know. I think it's necessary. We can't have, I mean, you know, our grandparents' religion and our grandparents' faith. And I think to have something that is real and resonant. It just, it never really made sense to me. And it wasn't until I got older where I started kind of saying some God, if you're real kind of prayers that I really began to experience. Like, okay, well, it seems like you answered that. And I don't know, it's been a journey. I think that's probably why I try to minister the way that I do is I'm was thinking about that person who's on the fence or who may not. And sometimes when I'm like preaching, like I try to give context to the story and why it's important because there's just so many things that we take for granted in church, which is why

we end up just talking to the same people over and over again. But some people, this is their first time and they don't understand what it means and why it's important. And so I don't know, I think I struggle sometimes because I may not be the most profound as it relates to speaking. but I do think that there's like this beauty in being elementary so that you are able to capture the people who are learning things for the first time. That's why that scripture, I don't know if this is exactly right what it meant,

but like one plants, one waters, God gets the increase. I think there's different pastors and preachers because there's different people and they're at different stages of your life. The person you need, the food you need when you're an infant, you know, the Bible talks about milk and meat. Like, if I'm just, I'm apprehensive about God, I've been hurt by the church, I'm whatever, if Sarah Jake's Roberts is the person that makes me feel like, you know what, maybe it's not so bad. Maybe they're only meant to be in your ministry for four or five years.

And when they've learned everything, now maybe you go learn from McClendon or somebody who's like, oh, they can really challenge you on a theological debate or something like that. You don't have to be the person for everybody for all time. We just be passing through. Some artists we love for a time And they take a turn left We're like, oh, I ain't really rock what you? Right, right, right.

But I wish you the best. It ain't know it will. I don't know why we think pastors and preachers Are like they have to fit you. They are for who they're for. Like I always use this example. People give Mike Todd a hard time for anything. My nieces and them love Mike Todd.

Yeah. They love Pastor Mike Jr. They love that feels, that's an entry point for them. And maybe they go through there and they're like, oh, they're Sarah Jakes or this person or whatever. But, you know, I think it all matters. I think everybody plays a part

in God's overall plan. I think we should allow that instead of ridiculing that. You know, I've met Mike. I don't know them personally, but I have never once seen him go viral, gone through the comments and not seen people who were like, I was in the room.

You had to be there. This was powerful. Jesus was lifted up. Like they, you know what I mean? So I withhold all, you know, preconceived notions that could exist because I, there's, there's people who are being blessed and edified. And at the end of the day, we're all going to be judged by our fruit. 1,000 percent.

And I think it's one thing that is both good and bad for the church is the internet. Because if I'm talking to you about something that applies to my flock and you see it out of context, it might not make sense. But to the people I was talking to, they might understand it. It might make sense to them, all that type of stuff. But when you take that clip

and you clip it and you put it out on whatever gossip site and then people take their life and their experiences and their church experiences and they impose that the one comment I always see and this is why I don't go to church.

This is why? Because this thing that just happened for the first time and ever happened in your life, it's okay to say You just don't go to church because you don't want you. You don't feel like it. It hasn't resonated with you.

Ain't nobody going to whoop you. You big and you're grown. But I think it's been a blessing and it's been a detriment because we didn't realize, I didn't realize how many people who had been hurt feel like, boom, now I feel vindicated. This is exactly what I'm talking about. And sometimes it's true. Sometimes the church can be embarrassing and all that type of stuff because it's full of people who are embarrassing and flawed.

So there's no way for it to not be what it is when it's feeling. with people who are doing that. You know what's funny, though, about what you said as it relates to the social media being both good and bad for churches. I agree with you 100%. I think it is a way of holding churches accountable, those who have been harmful, and those who could benefit from having some extra eyes to help people understand what's toxic, what's not.

But I also realize that it can be very harmful. You know, one of the things I'm committed to doing as leader, and, you know, we're going to see if it works or not. But I do think that like pastors have either been like deified, placed on a pedestal or caught in a scandal. And it is my goal to use social media to just show that I'm just a person. You know whether it's me taking my bonnet off or like trying to mess with my natural hair for the first time. Because I do think that there is this middle ground where like we don't, I think the pressure of being the God in a church when you're really just a person is why so many of them have ended up in scam. because it couldn't live with the pressure of that.

So I try to like alleviate that pressure by letting you know, like, yes, I saw the one, two, three release them. Like, yes, I'm trying to figure out how to do my hair. Yes, I'm frustrated. We're taking meetings. Like, I do think insisting on humanity while also acknowledging the pursuit of divinity is the only way that we're going to be able to really navigate a culture that's trying to understand what it means to be a leader of a church, but most importantly, a follower of Christ. I think you are absolutely right. This is going to sound like it doesn't make any sense, but I think it's the same thing that happened with wrestling.

Like when we grew up, wrestling was K-Fabe, meaning we really thought Hulk Hogan hated macho man or whoever he was wrestling. We didn't know they were friends. That sort of wrestling would not be able to exist in today. There's just too technology. People are smarter. There's no way to do it.

So they drop that in order to evolve, and it's why it's so big, I think pastors are the same way. I think there was the K-Fabe of pastors that they were perfect and never made mistakes. And then what happened is as I grew up, there's a scandal. The pastor doesn't have a baby on somebody. This happened like, oh, so they're just like me and you. It was always like that.

And I think they just are chosen to be leaders, but it doesn't make them perfect. They are not God. They are not Jesus. They are pastors, preachers, leaders of men. men and women. And I think it's important to show that humanity because sometimes with humanity comes grace. I think if we don't see you as a human, we have less grace for you as a human to make mistakes, to be caught in a scandal or to do something I deem wrong. It's like everything don't got to be I throw you away. Right. Like if me and you were real close friends, we could be great friends

and have be friends for 20 years, you could still hurt my feelings. And because you hurt my feelings once doesn't mean I'd be like, I don't talk to Sarah no more. Like, I could be like, Sarah, man, that wasn't cool, man. Why would you say that? And you'd be, oh, my bad camp, I didn't know. We could have an argument and we could maintain friendships.

I think sometimes social media makes us feel like one mistake means I got to throw you away. There's nothing good you could ever be because of this mistake. And I think some things, of course, require that. But a lot of times it isn't that. Sometimes people didn't do it on purpose. Sometimes they didn't know any better. Sometimes they're learning.

Sometimes they made a mistake. But like if you look through the Bible, God used all kinds of people that we would throw away. David was tripping. Yeah. It was big tripping in the Bible. Like, tripping. And he's called a man after God's own heart. He sent that woman's husband to the front line.

Did. He was, imagine that on the shade room. man, King David doesn't send your ride to the front line because he saw Bathsheba twerking. Whoa! Maybe she wasn't twerking. I took some liberties. She wasn't. She wasn't.

She was baited. She was bathing. I ain't a pastor. But God still uses all of us. And I think it's like we don't have to be in a rush to destroy people. Yeah. Or build them to the heavens.

We can just let things be. I think we're in a rush to make you either perfect or evil. And everything in the world is really just great. I'm not perfect nor evil. I'm a funny person, but I'm not funny all the time.

I'm kind, but don't trip. You know what I'm saying? Like, I don't play about my business. I don't play about my family, but I'm very, you know what I'm saying? I think that's why I am how I'm, that's why I take my shirt off all the time. That's why I talk about what I talk about

because I want people to be like, oh, Kev is just like one of us so that whenever I inevitably upset you for something that I do, you at least understand that I'm, actual person before you eviscerate me on Twitter threads or TikTok just know yes I've seen it I've seen one two three releases so I'm going to see your video when you stitch me and destroy me and it's going to maybe delete TikTok or go to my burner account because they've never felt so seen it's real

strict on threads I don't know where you didn't got killed one that is strict on I've been killed on Twitter multiple times TikTok. I ain't been killed, killed on threads just yet but I know my day is coming. Threads,

well, and I don't know I worked really hard for TikTok so they I could have been getting tossed around on there I don't know but, you know, threads is real strict.

Oh gosh, I was going to say something to you about, oh, okay, I'm going to say this one more because we're just having this conversation about church

and growing up church and then I'm going to ask you about your book. I'm going to ask you a few more questions about your book. I really do. feel this is me and I'm curious for your perspective and opinion. I feel like growing up in church,

I heard a lot of messages about like what God's going to do for you, but not necessarily like the character development that is available in the process of us becoming like God. So I want to dissect that a little bit because if we believe in the power of the Holy Spirit to really transform us to become someone who looks more like Jesus. That's character. That's morality. That's discipline, integrity. All of those things.

Which is such a thick process that it should leave no room for you to judge anyone else. Ultimately, we're talking about the process of sanctification and becoming holy like God is holy, right? Like, I feel like I miss that lesson growing up in church. And so I do think it left me feeling like I was just supposed to ask something from God. instead of becoming someone in God. And I feel like you, I just feel like that is a distinction

that is missing in our conversations about faith and ministry and sermons that I think would help people understand why this matters. It's not just what God's going to do for you or that God is in control. Like we have an opportunity to become in this process. And you can be that person of integrity.

You can be honest. You don't have to model these lives. And I'm curious if you had a different experience. No, I think you put words to something that I had been thinking, but hadn't quite like, oh, I'm doing these fingers. I mean, we're talking good. I hadn't quite like nailed down because, like, growth is character growth, all growth.

It's not perfect and it's not linear, right? Just like healing and injury or a baby learning to walk. Like, you learn to walk, you learn to balance, you stumble, but you don't just pick up and walk. perfect and never trip and never fall. And I think, you know, if you think about like a purifying process, the Bible talks about purifying, like, it's a process. It takes time.

You remove impurities by heat, by fire, and by time. And I think in some ways, God is probably developing us a long time. And that means mistakes will be made a long time. And what you learn for this level or for the next level is learned by mistakes from the previous level. So if you want to continue to go up, that means you're going to continue to make mistakes of. And I think I don't think I've ever learned about the character development in that way. I think a lot of times it was very transactional. You do this, you get that.

You pay your ties, your card don't break down. You know, it was very like give, receive, give, receive. And I sometimes think about like, oh, this is going, this, I don't know why I felt this such a way. I sometimes give my dog a treat to train him to like sit, behave, don't jump on people. And sometimes I just give him a treat because I like him and because he's my dog. And I think God sometimes gives us things just because he's good. And because he has so many things to give us. You don't always have to do something.

I just came home and I like the dog. let me pet you, let me give you a treat because I love you because I'm good, because you're good, because you're... And then I found out he did doodle where he was supposed to. And then, you know, I can't get the treat back. We just move over from here. I didn't know you tore my slipper up upstairs. But even still, you're still worthy. And I think I grew up mostly scared of God, mostly scared of hell.

We grew up very focused on the vengeful part of God. the fire and brimstone part less focused on the goodness and the grace part of god um and i think god you you would you would want if god is our parent you would want the best for your children you would want them to experience things um that are good even though you know they're going to have to develop to truly appreciate them so i i think that's a very um spectacular point that you made that's something i've thought about but haven't been able to be like this is what i i i I think it is. And I think it's what happening for me and you in certain ways.

We're like living in a, even though your dad was a pastor, he wasn't a pastor in this age. You know what I mean? So there's a lot of things he can help you with, but he can't help you with everything. Or a woman, which is its own. Listen. Listen. It's his own set of struggles. Ain't nothing he can, ain't nothing TD can tell you about that.

Yeah. Tell you everything you know he won't be able to tell you nothing about that. So I think in some ways we're doing things. in an ever-changing landscape, trying to figure it out always, and it's impossible for us not to make mistakes. And I think that's part of it, like, it's risky, but it's also worth it.

It's risky and rewarding. Okay, I want to ask you, as you look at your life, your career, and the progression of it, mind you, I just want to say, you put the whole squad on. Like, when I see the commercials, I'd be like, oh, those are the kids.

Oh, that's his friend. Like, you put the whole squad on. So much respect for that. Thank you. I am wondering, as we see, like, the world change with technology and the entertainment industry beginning to change, like, what makes you hopeful and what makes you nervous? What makes me hopeful? Great questions, SJR. What makes me hopeful is, like, people like me who grew up with, like, less access.

to the tools are the internet is equalizing the playing field. For sure. Where like I grew the more technology and the tools became available to me. I didn't have money for cameras, memory cards, equipment, paying for editors, filmmakers. Like, you had to have money. Now, the majority of my businesses run from this, which a lot of people have access to. Like there's so much that I do myself is there. So I love that because of the internet, your talent is more easily able to be discovered by people who would like you because the gatekeepers can't stop you from posting.

And the algorithms are designed to put your content in front of people that like it. So it's equalized. The thing that makes me worried, first as a black person, as, companies consolidate. Yeah. It's the greatest resources are never going to be reserved for black people and even less for black women. I'm still fighting to get equal footing with my white counterparts, all things being equal

or me being better than that. Right. They're not going, they always going to have access to more of a budget than I have. We always, you know, because we figured out how to make chitlins and oxtails with the scraps, they think that's all we want. Yeah. We would love the choice cuts. We'd like the ribby or the pork, you know what I'm saying?

But because we make oxtails look lit and chitlin's edible or whatever that is, I think that still permeates. And you think because you can do more with less, I'm always going to be able to give you less. And then because we make it work for less, it's hard to argue for more. So it's like that is such a hard thing to overcome because a lot of times it's not people like us seeing our value. I found that most of my success has been because a black person in that company has saw my value and explained it to somebody who not only didn't see my value, probably never even heard of me. And then I was able to deliver versus if that person in that position already was a fan

of that XYZ creator thing, they're more likely to open up the budget for them because they understand. And when we usually don't sit at the top of as many companies as white people do, It's just, it's hard to explain. Like, I could be super famous. It's like being black famous. Like, you know, Delroy Lindo can mean a lot to us. And there might be a whole bunch of white people who don't know who he is or Spike Lee or

whoever, whoever the case is. And I think that applies in Hollywood, in business, in brand deals. It is. And I be knowing these things because, you know, I work and, you know, my lawyer will be like, this person got this amount. I'm going to ask for that. And the brand be like, yeah, no, we don't have that budget anymore. But you just had it for that person, and we're going to have it for them every time.

We don't have it for you. So that part is like, I don't see that part changing as quickly until black people are able to be in those positions, making those choices with access to those same resources. I always think about, I used to listen to this podcast called How I Built This or How I Made This, something like that with Guy Raz. And so many times white people would have an idea and their first investment with family and friends, they could raise $500,000. Yeah, yeah. Just internally, parents, family and friends, not even nobody in the tech space. They just had that money. And for black people, that's not that common.

That kid could have that same idea. He's not going to have access to $500,000 from his parents or even any way to go to Silicon Valley or Shark Tank or whatever. So I would hope that I can be in a position to be that resource for somebody else. That's why, to your point about my friends, that's why it's so important for me to bring people up. Like, before I was in Hollywood, a black woman helped me get an interview at Boeing because, and my resume at that time was the last thing on there was you pastor. I had no business getting an interview at Boeing, but she was like, I was in this before LinkedIn, so I didn't have no picture. She was looking for black people to be employed at Boeing. And her looking out for me, I did good in the interview.

It allowed me to get that job, help me and me and Melissa put our kids in private school and all that stuff. So ever since then, I've been like, if I get my pinky toe in there, the first thing I'm going to do is be like, all right, let's go tone to here. Let's go. Let me put all these actors on because, one, that's how I am. And two, in this business, you don't know who's going to blow past you and who might be able to pull you up. For sure. So I feel like it can't hurt, you know, to help somebody that can't help me at all. At minimum, I'm doing what somebody else has already done for me and continues to do for me.

And so if I get nothing else out of it, then doing the right thing, that's good enough for me. Because I got some things that I didn't deserve. So I have no problem looking out for other people. I think that that's why God will always continue to bless the work of your hands, though, because you take it and you're fruitful and you multiply. You know what I mean? And I think that that is the most Godlike thing anyone can do. I appreciate that.

I didn't put my talent in the ground. I, I ain't bury it. And I love to give people opportunities. I realized my purpose along the way of when I worked at all death and I didn't even have any money. I realized the thing that brought me the most joy is just like a person hadn't had a chance to act. They get a chance to act. They hadn't had a chance to direct. They were always a camera person, but they want to direct.

I can do that for you. And I've just been kind of doing that in my career. and I think it gives me more joy than anything else as being like being on a ladder and pulling somebody up, even if that means they go past you, that also doesn't bother me because your path was always your path.

I don't want to, you know, some people want to help you as long as you stay at or below them. They don't want to help you if it means you can blow past, blow past them. That ain't, that ain't, your journey is not mine to own or hold. If I help you and you blow past me,

One of my interns, Trevor Wallace, White Kid, he was my intern at all death. That boy is filthy, rich, touring all over the nation, doing stuff I want to do, touring in Australia, and I cheer for him because that's his journey. I don't want to sit up here and be jealous of somebody that I helped. Brother, go on, go on past me. One day, hopefully I meet you up there. But if not, kudos to you, that ain't, I just don't rock like that. And that's why I sleep well, because I ain't hating on nobody and I ain't worried about nobody. When it's time for bed, I go to bed quick because I'm free and peaceful.

I do think like, okay, if you're listening to this podcast, you got to get Kevin's book. It's going to bless you. But I do think that just hearing his heart posture as it relates to his career and his path, ought to give you peace on your path and where you are. But there is something that I think is like not being stated that I want to highlight for those of you who are like taking these gyms. when he talks about the podcast he listened to about how people built their careers or built their businesses,

when he talks about the strategy and getting into certain rooms and bringing other people in the room, like he's not just talented, he's smart. He's not just, you know, creating content that makes you laugh. Like, do not let the laughing fool you up underneath that. Like, there's, he's studying.

Did you hear some of the words he's used throughout this podcast? Can we put a buzzer every time It's a big, you know what I mean? Like, I just, because let me tell you where these comedians get y'all messed up. Y'all be thinking y'all be he-he-he-h-h-h-h-in, but they're not really he-he-heeing all the time.

They're doing a lot of thinking. You-he-he-he-he-he-he-in-they-thinking. And I just want you to know that Kevon-stage don't be on. He'd be in the library. Kevon-l-lub studying. Okay, it's not. So studying. Talent is not enough.

Oh, my God. You want to pick up a book and you should pick up this one. Study to show that self-approved. That's Bible, but it can be applied. applied to regular life, though. Thank you. We could have talked probably for another hour. I didn't even get into all of the questions.

I want to talk about parenting and marriage and all of the things that you have going on. But maybe we can run it back in another way. But I'm grateful for your time. I appreciate that. Thank you so much for having me. You were amazing. We working when we should be off. But at least we understand each other.

This is just the way the world is this year. I don't know. But we both doing it. If we have to work, at least it could be this. I'm hoping my next meeting is not, yeah, real work. I appreciate that. Thank you so much for having me, Sarah. I really, I truly appreciate it.

My pleasure. Thank you. All right. It is the last week of Black History Month, and there is nothing like talking to somebody who is going to be Black History in the Making. I am so inspired by the courage that Kevin and his wife, Melissa, have shown in pursuing their dreams and allowing other people to be a part of it.

I cannot wait. I'm going to be having a conversation with Melissa pretty soon because she's doing some incredible things and sharing from her journey and experiences that I think will be really helpful to you. And let me tell you something. We need to have a conversation about the America's next time model documentary, but we can talk about that next week. If you haven't heard, the WOMADEvolve conference is in 26, July 30th through August 1st. We have about a thousand tickets left. So if you want to be in the building, I would love to see you there.

there's not a bad seat in the house and girlie ball has about a hundred tickets left i'm giving you numbers actual factuals because i want to make sure that we at least gave you a chance to get into the building um we're going to open up overflow tickets as well and they told me the overflow tickets is where it was at overflow was this uh room within the georgia world congress center literally within walking distance of state farm arena where we have the the main the main conference and there are screens set up and community set up and they have their own hosts. And then we do podcasts live from there, panels live from there, conversations live from there.

And so we call it the overflow room. And yeah, those will be open soon. Listen, I have enjoyed spending time with you this week. I pray that there has been something that has been said in this conversation that has filled your cup. I am looking forward to continuing to grow with you all here at Womney Ball. We've got some exciting things that we have been working on that I feel is really just going to elevate your connection with us and to make this feel more relevant to the spaces and places that you are. So hang tight. And if you're like my girl or myself and you're just like,

Lord, how am I supposed to balance at all? This prayer is for you. Lord, we open our hearts. We open our minds. We open our lives to you, God. And we say search our hearts. Search our hearts so that we may understand why we're doing the things that we do, how we're doing the things that we're doing, but most importantly, the way that you would rather us do them that preserves our soul. We know that above anything else that you want our souls to prosper. And so if there's anything that we're doing in our lives right now that's keeping our soul from prospering, Lord, we just ask that you would highlight it, that you would bring us to a place of radical honesty that we may be honest with ourselves and honest with others so that we may live lives that reflect

integrity and righteousness and all that we do challenge us God grow us comfort us give us wisdom order our steps as only you can do you know the end from our beginning you have the perfect timeline as it relates to our lives and so God we just ask that you would allow your presence to be tangible for us, that it would be near us and all that we do, and that we would be led by your spirit and your spirit alone. In Jesus' name, amen. Evolve.