Woman Evolve with Sarah Jakes Roberts - The Cost of Obedience with Natalie Manuel Lee

Episode Date: June 10, 2026

What does it really cost to follow God’s plan for your life? This week, Sarah sits down with Natalie Manuel Lee for an honest conversation about obedience, people-pleasing, purpose, and learning to choose God’s way over culture’s expectations. Together, they unpack the tension of trusting God when the path feels lonely, setting boundaries that protect your peace, and finding the courage to walk away from what no longer aligns with your calling. If you’ve ever wondered whether God is leading you into something new, this conversation is for you. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Shop now at performance.ca. 3-day sale. Driven by Performance Auto Group. Sometimes you think that burnout is a sign that I need to quit it, but burnout for me has been a sign of like I need boundaries, I need to change the way that I'm doing it, or I need to make sure that I have breaks in between. Exactly. And I think for me, it was all of that. I need breaks in between. This is not your God. Yeah. Put this down. Like, release, this, surrender this. And then the boundaries, the boundaries. The boundaries in place. Like, actually, it's five o'clock. We don't need to continue to do this, you know? And I think. to when you get so caught up in the results

and wanting everything to be okay you then begin to jeopardize or compromise yourself in it because you want to please like we talked about others of the world and then that's when it was like once I got free from that I was like okay I'm not doing it this way anymore

What's up family this is your girl Sarah Jakes Roberts and you are listening to the Woman Evolve podcast What's up with you? What's going on in your world? How are you feeling? Are your kids out of school? My kids are out of school. I'm sitting at the house.

Of course, by the time you're listening to this, I am probably sitting at the house propped up with an egg brace, but I'm still making sure them kids are getting where they need to be during this summer. You understand what I'm saying. You know, we thank God for older siblings with gas money who can tote and float these children

to some activities during the summer break. I am not sure what's happening with me right now to be truthful and honest, so I'll just wait. hopefully I'll have an update for you. I do know this because I am recording as many as possible before I head into surgery that I am hoping that by now my recovery has been a brief. That's what I'm going to do. I'm not going to tell you how I am. I'm going to tell you how I hope I am. I am praying that the recovery has been smoother than anyone anticipated, that I am sleeping well, that my vocal cords

are working properly, and that I have managed to get ice cream and french fries as many times as I wanted. come back and figure out whether or not this was true. But that is my prayer for me. That is what I am hoping is happening in my business. But I want to know what's happening in your world because by time you hear this, I'll be able to look on the comments and see what's happening with you. So update me. What's going on in your world? What are you learning about God in this season of your life? What are you learning about yourself in this season of this life? Put us on game. We want to know. Drop a comment below. I'm going to mind your business. I got this question that I think is really going to be something worth marinating on. Let's dive into it.

Hello, my name is Lauren Fulton, and first I just have to take like 10 seconds to not cry while I tell you how powerful and special of a sister in Christ you are to me. I'm so grateful to have been able to have heard many of your sermons. You truly are a beautiful spokesperson for our Lord and Savior. Okay, so two questions. I guess I am in a relationship. That's all right. And it is, I don't have to put out. Let me make this short and sweet.

Anyone else and everyone else tells me I shouldn't be with this person because they have nothing taught for me. He doesn't work. He doesn't have the greatest habits. And yet we separated. I got myself clean and, you know, got myself jobs. We established my relationship with the Lord. and he resurfaced into my life.

Now I'm with him, and I don't know if I'm supposed to leave him or if I'm supposed to stay. So I guess I would ask you directly when everything is telling you to walk away from something. But you feel deep down in your soul that you can help them. Am I lying to myself? Is it God telling me to speak around, or is it me justifying what I truly? we want. Okay. Have a blessed day. Thank you so much. Bye. You know what I think makes this question so unique is that so often we wonder, as it relates to the desires in my heart, how do I know what's God and what's me? How can I tell

whether or not I am hanging on to my will and my desire of God? And so my first piece of advice for you in this scenario is to find a way to become completely at peace with whatever outcome is possible. So as it relates to you in this relationship in particular, I want to be specific. I want you to walk out what it means to leave this relationship alone, what it means to leave him alone to not be the one who's helping him, to not be the one who's cheering him on and supporting him, and find a way to get to a place of peace about that being the walk that you need to take. Also, it sounds like you're already at a place of wanting to hang going, but what would it look like for me to have peace to stay in him? It's only until we can be completely detached from either

outcome that we can honestly hear from God. When we are praying to God, but we really only have one outcome in mind, it does skew our perspective. But to get to a place where we really, really can say, nevertheless, not my will, but your will be done, that is the ultimate place of sacrifice and surrender where we know that God can really reveal to us truth. I was thinking about this earlier, even as it relates to surgery, because I've been going back and forth about whether or not I might actually show up to get it done. And I guess we're feeling to see if I show up to get it done, because anyways, but I was thinking about, one, how I don't have to want to go through this in order to go through it.

Jesus had a moment where he didn't want to go to the cross, where he said, let this cup pass from me. I don't want to drink this cup of sin. I don't want to have to get on the cross and live my life out this way. This isn't what I want to go through. But you know what else it says? As much as it is comforting to know that Jesus was in a situation where he felt that very saying reluctant about having to walk through something.

That scene is said in the Garden of Githemimini, where ultimately he begins to pray until he get to a place where he was at peace with the road he must take. My goal is to get you to a place where you are in a place of such prayer, even it was hard prayer that said beads of sweat almost like blood were pouring out of Jesus. That's how intensely he was praying and wrestling himself down to get to this place of surrender, I want you to be willing to lay it all down on the altar and say, God, if this isn't your path for me, if you don't want me to be in this person's life, if you don't want me to be the one who's helping to bring out what you see in him, then I'm going to lay this down completely.

And it's going to hurt because I believe in him. And it's going to be difficult because I believe that I can add value to his life. But if it's not what you want, I don't want it either and grieve that and let it cry and sweat and let it break your heart. So then when you begin to pray you can honestly hear from God and God can strengthen you for whatever your next is. The Lord may say you do need to walk away. The Lord may say, you know what? Sticking it for a little while longer and I'll give you strength and strategy for that. But we can't hear from God while also holding on to what it is that we really want. And so then what does it mean for me to hear from God? To begin to ask the Lord, once you've really wrestled that part of it down where you've

allowed the Lord and the Holy Spirit to pry it from your hands, to begin to begin to ask, to ask the Lord to allow me to see you in this situation. A lot of times when we are used to serving other people and we're used to our identity being connected to the support and help and development of another person, of course we can look at someone and see how we can add value to them because that's what we do in every relationship we're in. But the question that then becomes, if this is a relationship, not a project, can this person pour back into me? How do they develop what you're doing in my life, God. How do they make me stronger? And sometimes their strength, they can't strengthen you in the same areas that you can strengthen them. That's okay, but you are able to be strengthened.

And so, Lord, allow me to be someone who doesn't just love the way that you love, but who can also receive your love in return. And how do I receive your love from this person? I believe that relationships that are divinely orchestrated allow us to see God in the other person and the way that they show up for us and allow us to become more like Jesus in the way that we have to show up for them as well. But it's reciprocal in relationships, an intimate relationship like the one you're talking about. And other dynamics, it's not always reciprocal. It's not always balanced. It's not always equal. But in a romantic partnership where two become one, that reciprocity allows for a oneness because we're able to bring strength in an area where the other person may have had a weakness.

And so examine that delivery that you bring to the table, but also the offering that that person is bringing to you and weigh it from there. I hope that's helpful. Take everything I say to the Lord in prayer. I always say this. Test it. And the Lord will speak to you. You know the Lord.

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are at stake and yet still continuing in obedience like the one that I am about to have with Natalie Manuel Lee. She has a passion for discovering and unearthing the defining stories that have shaped people's lives. She has her own podcast and what she is able to have conversations with influencers, thought leaders, artists who are out here trailblazing in their own ways. But it is because of her unique personality with her driven sense of purpose that she is able to bring out transparency, vulnerability, and inspiration that can apply to anyone no matter what walk of life they're in. Natalie has created a platform that bridges the gap between culture and inspiration with a sense of honest conversations and the icons that she have spoken to,

you end up feeling closer to them and like they're more like friends. She premiered her own docu series now with Natalie on the Hillsong channel in early 2019. And from there, it just has continued to grow and develop. Season 4 is available on YouTube now. So after you finish listening to Natalie's podcast with me, you're going to want to know more and more about her and her walk with the Lord. So head on over to her YouTube channel, subscribe, make sure that you stay plugged in. She has so many incredible conversations that I know are going to be a blessing to you and anyone who listens.

So let's get into this week's episode. So you know our phrase for this year is going rogue. I don't know if you know this or not. Okay. And whenever anyone hears it, there's like either they instantly get it or they need a little explanation. So I'm going to give you an explanation. I'm going to need that explanation. Okay.

So you think about Romans 12, 1 and 2. We're not being conformed to this world. We're being transformed. And yet the reality is that in many ways we have experienced confirmation. We are conformed sometimes by our fears, by our insecurities, and we find ourselves in this misshaped version of who we are. And so we're encouraging women to go rogue, to break out of that, to do something different than what is expected or their norm.

And so I'm wondering when you think about your life and this season of your life, in what way are you or should you be going rogue? Great question. Thank you. I think for me in this season, I think as we all know, a lot of us want to go culture's way. And for me, going road is going kingdoms way. And understanding what that looks like and what that means. Knowing that, so for right now, I'm preparing for the next season of Now with Natalie. I'm writing a book.

doing a lot of internal and healing work. So with that, I think there is this proclivity and propensity for our culture to want to do things the way that culture does things. But in order for us to be obedient and to do the things that God has called me to do, I have to go kingdom's way. So in my opinion, that's what going rogue would be for me. I totally, I mean, I totally align with that definition. Right. Do you feel that the kingdom way is different than even like, I want to say this properly, but like I think that there's this idea of like the church way of doing things. But when I think about your life, you live at this intersection of kingdom and culture.

And I think that you almost stand there with this sign pointing people towards the path of kingdom. But in order to do that, you have to navigate those different spirits and expectations and events. and opportunities. And so what does that look like for you in practice? Like how do you know what's bait that can exist within the culture to get people to the kingdom versus what's compromised? I think the fruit of it, the fruit of what I may feel in that moment. If I feel peace about a decision or a situation, I know that that is the way I need to go.

But if I feel the bait and there's anxiety and there's a little bit of fear, not nerves necessarily, but maybe a little bit of like, wait, then I would know that that's bait. But I think for me, I know that if I'm in a space of peace, having, making sure that I can trust God and what he's called me to do. And so a lot of times it's like,

if I don't have the peace of God, how do I have peace with God? And so for me, if I don't have peace with a decision or a decision that I'm making, if it's a partnership for a brand deal, or if it's a guest that I want to have them on my show or if it's a topic that I want to talk about, I know that I have to follow the path of peace.

And when I feel a little bit more anxious or a little bit more fear and I think like, oh, wait, they're doing it this way. This is culture's way. I know that in order for us to be an alternative to the world, we have to be different. In order for me to be able to make an impact, an eternal impact on the world,

I have to be an alternative to the world. And so for me, it's going to be, I take the lonely road. It is lonely. It is ghetto. It is not fun. It is not easy. Talk about the pressing and the crushing and knowing that the process that I'm going through, I have to know and hear clearly. Okay, this is what God's calling me to do.

Even though I want to book that guest or I want to have that brand partnership or I want to do this, but that's culture's way. I know that if I go outside of God's will to get what I want, I have to stay outside of it. his will to keep it. Oof. A bar was dropped. Girl. So that is how I follow the path. Because I'm afraid to be outside of the will of God.

Yeah. I'm afraid to, because I've done it before. And each way is a cost. Yeah. You know, saying yes to the call on your life, there's a cost there. Going outside of God's will, there's a cost. So which cost do you want to pay? I want to pay this cost because I know the fruit of that cost.

Even though the bait looks good, the bait feels good. It's very alluring. It's what the world is saying. But if I go over there, I'm going to have to stay over there to keep it. But if I go his way, I know that it's a longer path, but I know that I'm in alignment. Is social media bad for your mental health? Are we spending too much on other people's weddings? And why is heteropessimism trending?

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With podcasts like It's Been a Minute, NPR is here to listen, ask more questions, and take your curiosity further. Follow NPR's It's Been a Minute podcast and indulge your cultural curiosity. So, I mean, I feel like you're like answering this question in the process of me asking it, but I'm going to ask anyway, how do you deal with the fear of missing out? You know what I mean? Girl, I used to be her where I didn't want to miss out, where I was a people pleaser, where I wanted to be everywhere and do everything that everybody was doing. but when I realized that it started to cost me, it started to cost my capacity. It started to cost me just even purpose of being home with my daughter, Mae Jones.

It started to cost me being the wife that I needed to be. For me, the people pleasing started to dissipate once I realize, and the fear of missing out, once I realize and anchored in my identity in him, the fear of missing out for me now is like, I want to be invited, but I'm not going. I can't go. I'm not going. I'm tired. I got to do X, Y, and Z. But I know there was a time and place where I didn't miss out because I wanted to be at everything.

But I thought that me being at everything and showing up at everything was a validation on who I was and where I needed to be and how people saw me because I wanted to please man and not God. Okay, so I am kind of struck by not just you, but like your whole family. You know, it's not just that you all are who you are. It's that you have maintained your reverence in the midst of your success. Can you tell me about like growing up in your household? What type of, because there's, my father always talks about like something's in the soup. You know what I mean? There was something in the soup.

Something in the soup. At the manual household. What was happening over there? Child. My mama just staying on us. Yeah. So my dad was a professional. professional athlete. So he was a baseball player. So I was born into this. I was born into limelight. I was born into

cameras, lights, microphones. And so they were people who were very, very much anchored in purpose. And so for us, that's all that we knew was that, yes, dad is who dad is. That is outside, working, doing his job. my mom was home and it was instilling us in the word. You know, this is the greatest among us serve. The gift that God has given you, you are used to use it to serve people. And so honestly, I don't know any other way, if I'm being honest with you. This is, I was born into this. I don't know what life would look like if I wasn't on the other side, but I know that

nothing is wasted and understanding like looking back then on the crumbs and like the seeds that she planted in our life as well as my dad is why we are all where we are today. And my dad being a successful baseball player, coach, him being in the limelight and seeing how he carried himself, that was very inspirational. So my dad was someone that, you know, was a coach, but also was mentoring the players at the same time. My mom was doing private Bible studies with the wives. And so that was what, that's all I knew. And so, you know, naturally for me, I do private Bible studies. You know what I mean?

I serve with the gift that God has given us. And so I believe wholeheartedly, unequivocally so, we are all where we are because of the seeds that they had planted in our lives. Do you feel like you ever went through a season where you were like, you know, I'm trying on their faith, their religion, but it's not quite mine yet? Like, was there ever a season or was it always just innate for you? I think that's a great question. I think I did not fully, I mean, we know him, right? So it's like growing up, just like even with your dad, you know that there, you hear it. But I didn't start to truly experience who God was until I moved to L.A., which was about 20 years ago when I realized like, oh, I got to do this on my own. Yeah. I got to figure all this out on my own. I can't lean on my worldly father. I have to learn how to really lean on my heavenly father. What does this mean? What does this look like? Because for me, growing up, even in college, college days. Like, I still have my parents. You know what I mean? I still had them to lean on to. And so I would say, I wasn't necessarily putting on their faith. I think I was just going with

the flow of what that was. But then once I came out here, I was like, oh, I got to figure this out. I have to really know and walk boldly into what I feel like he's calling me to. And that was a lonely road. You know, it was a lonely, pressing road. But that's when I feel like, my relationship with the father grew more intimately than ever when I was fully on my own. How does someone cultivate their own personal relationship with God?

For me, spending time, spending time, like truly knowing who he is. I mean, be still and know that I am God. You have to be still.

And then you begin to know. It's just like friendship. You spend time with them. That's how you get to know them. You understand the character of them. You understand the equity of them. So for me, sure, there's seasons all the time. I'm like, oh, my God, is God I going to show up?

But I know who he is. I remember the equity of God. So for me, when I moved out here, all I did, you know, when there was moments of not wanting to miss out or whatever, it's like, let me go in my prayer closet or let me sit in here and sit in here worship. But it still was a process and it still is. I mean, I definitely feel like we are homies 1,000 percent. That is my ace boo-cum, but it's still, we will, you know, we get to know him until we go to heaven. There have been so many different, like, versions of your life that you had experienced. You know, so, like, you and got to go together real bad because you and got been to a lot of places.

Do you want to talk about, like, all of the different steps your journey has taken? Yes, so when I moved to L.A., I knew. So I went to school for communications, so studied that for a little bit journalism. And then when I moved to, so when I graduated, I went to New York and had a internship at CBS Sports and extra TV. So I knew there was some type of communication, journalism, what that was going to look like. Then from there, I moved to L.A. And I started styling with my brother, Jerry Lorenzo. We were styling videos before he was even fear of God.

So I was styling with him, and we were just both in the fact. fashion industry. And then from there, he started building fear of God. And I went along with him. And then fast forward four or five years later, this was a ghetto transition. I knew God was calling me out of there. But it was such a hard decision to make

because I wanted to continue to build this brand with my brother. But I knew God was calling me elsewhere. First of all, okay, can we, before you just skip on to the next step, I feel like we should unpack that a little bit. Yes. On some packet. Okay, so you're working with family.

Yes. Yes. Yes. We're working with family. You know, and all of the beauty and complexity that comes with that. The beauty and the nuances. Yes. All right.

It was, and it's so funny because when he asked me, I'll never forget when he asked me, I was in my apartment or I was in my friend's apartment and I read the text and I heard so clearly go and help pick up your brother's cross with him. So it was a space and a posture of service for me. So there was no ego. There was no pride. So right when I was like, okay, then I will say yes, I knew going into that building, I knew coming alongside him, I was there to serve.

And so it wasn't as complex or nuance as it may seem because I made sure I stayed in position. Because there were moments where it's like, Jerry, we, you know, did it up. but it's like, oh, okay, that's still your boss, that's your brother. There's respect there. There's love there. But then also, I had a job to do as well. Not only just help him push along this brand, but be his sister. Be his eyes and ears. See what's happening in the culture, in the office, et cetera.

And so I think I was apprehensive at first because I didn't want our relationship, you know, for it to go any friction or any tension, but there wasn't. And tell it was time for me to go. I was going to say because there's this idea of like loyalty to your family. You know. Girl. Okay. Loyalty to the family versus loyalty to your call and your purpose.

And this is like a universal experience. It doesn't matter if you're like a P.K. Like I have been or your brother's building a brand like yours. I think that there is this moment whether we're going to continue to be loyal to the way they communicate, loyal to the way that they heal or don't heal versus charting your own path. Can we talk about that sense of betrayal

that can come when you say you may be what I know, you may be who I have been shaped around and who I love, but in this season of my life, I have to do something different. Yeah.

It can be really hard. And that's honestly why it helped me to like fully uproot this root of people pleasing because I wanted to please him I wanted to make sure that it was okay I wanted to make sure that are you okay

and not even realizing as I was like digging deeper into this people pleasing like why I'm this way I left a lot of my rejection wounds unattended so I was pulling from a place of rejection I was being led by my wounds as opposed to my discernment in those relationships. But then when it came to him and leaving, I knew I couldn't afford to stay any longer. It had nothing to do with him.

It had everything to do with what God was asking me to do. But also because I did some of that personal work prior was like, okay, even though this is really tricky, this is really hard. And I want to stay with you. And I want to plead you. I can't because I'll then betray, like you said, said myself. And I wasn't used to putting myself first. I wasn't used to saying yes to me before I would say yes to everybody else. And so I think it was a tricky transition, not because I was clear. It was more of like I knew that he may feel some type of way. But then literally, probably I think after we launched season one of Now and Allie, he's like, oh, I get it. I understand now. I get it. And now, I get it. And now he's like my biggest cheerleader.

Yeah. But it is that tension and that nuance of wanting to honor what you know, but then also honoring where God has really calling you to go and be. It's kind of wild when you're from a close-knit family. And we're also like this. You seem like it. Of course, I don't know a lot of you personally, but just from what I see on social media, you're very close-knit.

And I think there's a different dynamic when the family maybe doesn't have as close-knit. but when you are known as a unit, it can be difficult for you to find your own individuality and to not feel like you're betraying the family. And I feel like so much of what people experience when they have like enmeshment within families, a part of them suffers. Like I feel like in many ways,

me getting pregnant as a teenager, like it gave me a distinction, it gave me my own identity, now I had to work through, you know, what's healthy, what's not. But I think there was a separation that I got to have that a lot of my siblings didn't get to have. And so they had to kind of find themselves.

And, of course, that was just as difficult as a teen pregnancy, but just in a different way. Yeah. And I think for me, too, naturally, I'm the youngest of four. Okay. So when you're the youngest, you're always everybody's cheerleader. You're always picking up after what everybody else is doing. You're also looking at them to essentially lead you and follow their path. but I think it was, that moment was definitely like what you're saying.

It's like separating. Like we are all so close. But even doing like the personal work and healing and understanding generational curses and generational patterns and family patterns. And there's certain things about my family that is absolutely amazing. And then there's other stuff that is toxic. Child, mine too. Girl, child mine too. For all of these scriptures.

For everybody. That's what I'm saying people Let's keep it a hundred I would have just been raised in this household You would have been a little messed up steel And we all are Even the family that we're both probably

individually raising It's like there's no Nobody is exempt Yeah But that's the truth And I want people to know Like I get it Our family is a forward facing family

We're this blah blah blah But no we we go through it too We go through it Do you ever wonder as a parent Like I wonder how I'm messing this kid up Like I'm doing everything I think about that two days ago. I had a little mom breakdown a little bit.

I wonder how I messed. Oh, you did? You went rogue? Wait, let's talk about it. No, because I have a story to tell. No, she was just, God, forget me. It's too much. It's a lot.

Calm down. Please. Calm down. I'm a person. I'm right here. Chill. Be quiet. Stop.

No, honestly. I'm not here. I'm not here. Leave me alone. Leave me. If I could tell these kids. Bras. What is on the inside of my soul?

What do you want for me? I got to feed you. I got to be nice to you. I got to be nice to you. I got to be patient. Blow your nose. I got to do home or leave me alone. Your lunch.

Stayed up by yourself. Exactly. Be a strong independent 10-year-old. You can put on your pajamas. You can do it. And put on some lotion. Why do you want to walk around as she? Sarah.

And why do I have to tell you to put on lotion every day? Every day. It's the same thing I told you to do yesterday. I am tired of it. Y'all need to grow up. Get it together. Literally. I'm like over here like, wait, God, please.

And it's so funny if I'm being super transparent. Like, there's just patterns that I, for me, I could, I, my patience, I need to really, Father God, I need help with that a little bit. Because it's like, like you said, you heard me. Yeah. I just, can you put on your shoes? I'm not, one more time. I'm tired of it.

So my nervous system, you already know, it's right here. All the time. So then if it. All the time. And then here's the thing, and this is what we have to work for it. Because, like, in the world, right? Like, not at home, but like in the world. When you know that somebody plays with you, the moment they hit the door,

you just kind of go on defense because you're like, I already know that you play with me, so I'm going to be on guard. But when that person live in your house and they knock them on that door and then your kid, it's like you like to play in my face. but my nervous is numb I had to bring this down because I'd be ready I be ready what's up I be sit down

I'm not playing now I'm not playing it girl because you got me on fumes from yesterday from yesterday and I barely have my quiet time this morning with the Lord so this morning not ready for you no what are we going to do about it I'm looking at you what we're going to do

you tell me I have started telling these kids like you know mommy's a person too. I love that. Mommy's a person too. And it's so funny because growing up I saw my parents as heroes.

Yeah. And so until, you know, probably I was like 20 years old and knowing like, oh, you guys are people too. Yeah. And so same with Mae Jones, my daughter. Yes, you're five years old, but I'm like, I only have this amount of

capacity a day. Yeah. And, you know, and I think too, for us, we're working moms. So it looks a little bit differently than what it was a few generations ago. For sure. And so it's like we're trying to juggle

what this actually is supposed to be. What is this supposed to look like? How many, am I supposed to be patient in this moment? Am I not? Is it okay? Because when I just, I just like, sit down. Like I just, and then I did have a moment of like, okay, God, like, I know it was an ideal. Probably wasn't the best thing.

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Why is this taking me that far? What is it that I have to do differently so I can show up differently? And there's days where I show up and it's great. And then there's other days where it's like, here's your toothbrush. Yeah. You got it. You know, my daughter, my. 10-year-old daughter is different than, so I've got a 16-year-old, and then I have bonus

daughters that were teenagers when we met. And so I am amazed at how different my 16-year-old daughter is from my 10-year-old daughter. Okay, how? What's the difference? Well, now, I was a different parent for both of them, right? So for the 16-year-old, I was a single mother for the beginning stages of her life, but she remembers that. And so I think that there was probably this sense of like take it easy on mom right because she's got a lot on her plate and her little brother or her older brother is probably giving her that knowledge

like you know and he was there my 10 year old she doesn't want to take it easy on me at all that's Mae Jones I feel do you feel like she's mostly like you she is like her father she's very demanding and she wants what she wants when she wants

it last night you know I guess she woke up in the middle of night She had security my phones on silent, his phone's on silent. So she starts hitting the find my iPhone alert to wake me up at 1.30 in the morning. This is a few hours ago. Well, you look great. You look great. And thank a very few hours ago.

But she means now, like when I call you. And I'm just not used to a child being that demanding. So how do you respond to it? I don't I'm tired of it I'm tired of it I have to talk to her like everything is a negotiation or like something that has to be unpacked

and explained and I feel the only way that I can break out of that and this is where I don't have tools is to talk crazy to her and so because I don't want to talk crazy to her here I am trying to explain to her that like mom really does have a job And I really do get it.

And I am not here for your begging call. So like, I am hopeful that in me explaining things to her, that I am teaching her communication skills and that she is in some way getting it. But the mental Olympics of raising children. And I only have one. And what it is, too, and I even said this to. And my husband Brian is like, she don't get that. I was like, why is it always a fight with you? Because it's just tug and pull.

Why am I fighting with you? Yeah. Why are you not just saying, okay, yes, mom. But then my mom was like, well, what did you expect? That's what you were like. See, and I rebued that. I said, oh, but I said, but I thought I thought that I worked through those things and that they didn't get passed down. Natalie, I'm going to tell you.

Yeah, help me, Sarah. Help us. I had my child at my first child at 14 years old. Yeah. And believe it or not, he was the easiest. child that I've had to raise and I raised him as a teenager. Really? I think God was like, you're already going through a lot.

I'm not going to give you what I have in store for you. Do you think it's the difference between the time we're living in? Like what's the access to what's on their fingertips or are they just not? Yeah. And I'm trying to find it. You know, I got in trouble when I was being, when I was a child, because we may have to edit this story, but I'm going to go with it anyway. Yeah.

Because I'm just thinking about this idea. of, you know, your parent telling you, your mother telling you that, you know, what you're actually just getting the harvest of what you sowed into her life. But, you know, my, I had a nanny at the time and someone told me, I was always in grown folks business always. Yeah. And someone told me that her and her husband couldn't have children. That something happened to him.

Now, Natalie, okay, just stick with me and don't judge me. And this may need to be edited. Tell me. So, you know, I was nine years old, eight years old, and she said something to me that I didn't like. And mind you, I was an angry kid, right? My parents weren't around. They weren't as present they wanted to be. And so I was probably upset that she was even there.

And she said something to me, and I didn't like it. So I was back in my journal in the back of her car scribbling. So she knew I was lighting her up. I didn't say it to her, but baby. Me and that old. Catch her in that rearview mirror. Right. I already know.

I already know. And she went into my journal. Oh, she went to the journal. She didn't. And I had put some things in there. And then what happened? I cannot believe that I am saying. Like, even if it never makes it to YouTube, the fact that I'm about to say this in front of you all.

I appreciate it. So I wrote in my journal some things about what I knew about her life. Now, mind you, I'm like nine years old. They told me she can't have kids. I don't know what that means. I'm thinking her husband doesn't have private parts. So now I'm back in my journal. writing about

Sarah And that's why he ain't got no polite That's why he ain't got that But look I don't think that's That's, is that bad Like you're human That was a moment

But I look at my daughter now And I'm like, why do you Act the way that you do And I literally just text Because they didn't whip me So because she went in my journal And she told them And so my parents call me down

Into the room And they were like Can you explain this? What did you? Do you remember? They told me they ain't she had. And then I was like, and then it was just my personal journal. I can't believe she went in my journal.

But low-key, that's on her. She shouldn't have went through your journal. That's my personal. Like, actually good on you that you didn't cuss her out face-to-face. Right? I was true. Exactly. But, yeah, so I am definitely reaping that because my daughter has a level of expression

that is beyond what is necessary. And so no matter how many generational cursory. we break before raising these children or while raising them, genetically there must be something that we're maybe breaking the generational curse is less about keeping it from ever getting on them, but breaking it so that they know how to get it off of them. Ooh, that was good. I needed that right now. Because sometimes we're like, I want to break it so that they never have to experience it. But maybe breaking it is teaching them how to dismantle it. That's really good. And I think that's probably. what I need to just keep that focus. Because I'm thinking in my head, like she, her mouth is wild. It's crazy.

But then it's also, you know, I'm so grateful that I don't have to shape this boldness and this courage. Like, I'm so grateful you're very bold, you're courageous. Now I just have to shape you. I don't have to teach you how to use your voice because you know how to use your voice. Right. But I need you to know when to speak and when not to speak. Yeah.

You know. And, you know, I think teaching. them the art of apology, unfortunately through those moments where we end up like spas and gal or saying too much or saying it too harshly did say, hey, I was tired, hey, I was this, I meant what I said, but I could

have said it differently. Did your parents ever apologize to you? My mom did. My dad was pretty, because he was on the road a lot, so there was never for him to really, my mom was the one that was in our butts. She was the one that was like, so

she definitely did. I can't remember like was there moments but even even to this day now she's very much like you know i only knew what i knew yeah i didn't know any better and i think for us now as we know like we have tools that are at our fingertips that help us to be aware yeah and for them no excuse they didn't necessarily have that but she definitely i mean she definitely knocked a few buck though it was very like oh god like even my brothers and my sister when we know that my mom was about to bring the We would put stuff. Period.

Yeah, because you're not about to just, no, I'm going to have a little cushion. Because we know. Multiple pairs of pants and panties. Yes. Yeah, you know, and that's the other thing. I was having this conversation because I really, I grew up in a household

where you would get whooped. Yes. And so when I was raising some of my children in my earlier ages, I was like, you could get whooped for anything. Yes. You know, and I think that as I've become more awakened, that I am trying to use, like, better tools

for raising this. them beyond just giving them weapons and talking. Because if I think about it, looking back, I don't know if the weapons didn't bother me. I didn't, I don't think that it, I don't know if it affected me. No, yeah, it didn't. It wasn't,

it was, you know, but even with her, she's really sensitive. And so she will get a little, but then there are moments where it's like, if I know I'm hot, let me just walk away. I popped Ella once and she told me Queens don't whip their children with tears streaming down. No, she didn't.

That's a 10-year-old one. Oh, she lights you up. Oh, no. She said, Queens don't whip. Mind you, she got tears streaming down her face. She said, you're not a queen. She took my crown. She said, I may got this woman, but she don't have a crown.

She said, Queens don't whip their children. I said, this one did. It's all I had. I was down to nothing. Exactly. That's all I had. Cry, I know. Thank you for making me feel seen.

Yeah. Isn't that? So we're in it together. We're in it together. You're not strong personalities. They're going to need it for the world we live in. For sure. And we can survive this.

Yes, we can do hard things. But it definitely takes me out. Yeah. It takes me out. But thank you, God. What a gift she is to me. Yeah. What a gift.

What an honor it is to be able to be entrusted with her. Yeah. And so I think that too, I can feel there's moments where when I get frustrated, like, I see who she is. And knowing, like, this is my responsibility to raise her the way that I know how to raise her. Even though I'm ready to knock a few bucks a moments. I will say, even though, even though, Ella be taking me, I am the only person she ever wants to be with. See?

Ever. But also they say that it's the safeness that they feel. She told him, I'm her emotional support. She said, I won't call you an animal, but you are my emotional support. The only person she ever wants to be with. Like, even with me taking time away, any of the other kids would be like, Mom, you work so hard. Ella's going to be like, Mom, I mean, she will follow sleep on FaceTime with me. She said it makes her feel safe.

Like she only wants to be with me. And see, and that's how you know it's toxic. Exactly, exactly. So toxic, girl. Because I even had to ask her doctor, she was like, yeah, no. She goes, the reason why she acts so out with you, she feels safe. It's like, okay, because even at school, she's great at school. Ella's so nice to her father.

She never gives them any lips. She never is frustrated nothing. But me, she'd be like, oh, listen. Right, exactly. Okay, we went on a journey there. We went on a journey there. Oh, but we answered that question, period. you just turned 40

how do we feel about it you know I feel like I finally woke up really everyone says this about 40s I want to hear it I want to be 38 this year you're gonna be 30 okay I feel I can look down you know people like fourth floor is activated going looking down at the

third floor the second floor the first floor you could see like just the different versions of me and then getting here I almost feel like, oh, I'm a woman now. Yeah. Honestly, that's how I feel. I feel like I woke up. I feel like there's a lot of stuff that was dormanted in me.

And I feel fully confident in who I am now. And it's so interesting because even last year, the beginning of 39, I felt that. But I think even more so there's clarity that has emerged. But 40 is different. And your body's different too. Girl. How? Just the, I can't eat all the.

stuff I want to eat no more. Because it finds its way back to you. Finds its way back. Fatigue. I'm a little bit more tired now. You just got to do things differently. Like even when I work out, I'm a little bit more, you know, exhausted than I would normally would be.

But I love it here. Like I said, I feel like I woke up. And I mean, I just turned 40 a few months ago. I think a lot about even like parimenopause and stuff and I'm just like, what are some of the things that I should be like They say brain fog, which I feel like I've had since May Jones was born.

I feel like I have brain fog every day. And like everyone's tired. Everyone's tired. So when will I know? Tell me. Am I in it? I don't know. I'm always tired.

I always have brain fog. I don't know. No. When they start talking about fatigue, like whether it's your hormones or this or like fatigue and exhaustion and brain fog, I'm like that's like my baseline. Yes. Throw something heavy at me. Same.

But I don't know. Hopefully I hopefully have a couple more years. For sure. Yeah. But, you know, she's going to be gentle with you. Yeah. Hopefully. When you think about who you are today, what parts of you feel like the most settled and what parts do you think are still developing?

Most settled is probably, like I said, because there's turning 40, my identity, probably. Most settled. I feel like I finally know who I am and why I'm here. developing a girl patience and control i think i still my anxiety could can take over sometimes being able to distinguish between a lie and truth in my mind you know i think those are the things that i could feel like it's a constant thorn in my side of like oof okay switch out those thoughts switch out those thoughts

so it's like in one instance i'm aware of who i am And there's another instance where it's like, so I know that I need to continue to press in a little bit more on that. Outside of, like, God and your husband, like, who's your closest confidant? Friend-wise? Besides God and my husband? My mom. Yeah.

Yeah. Truly. I think, you know, just, like we said, we've butt heads, too, but that's my role dog. That's someone that I know that will cover me day in and day out will, correct me will cheer me on will lead me in a way that I know that I need to be led yeah I would say my mom

it's funny I was watching this scary movie and in the movie there's like this kid that's like demon possessed I think he got like switched at birth or something girl what movie was that? It's like day is damien something like that okay but anyways in the movie no one believes the woman that there's something wrong with the kid she's like this is not my kid

there's something wrong with them husband doctors, everyone thinks they're crazy. And I was like, if I was ever in that situation, my mother would believe me the moment I said it. Yeah. The moment I said it. She would be looking at the kids sideways and trying to like cast it out.

My mother is that for me as well. Same. Yeah. Like, thank you God. And we're so similar. And that's what my dad always calls us triplets. My daughter, me and my mom were like pretty much the same. Yeah.

Good and bad, all the different things. So, okay. So she also, that's why she knows what's going on with your daughter. Exactly. She was like, that's what? Like, hello. Okay, we're going to do some rapid fire. Ooh, some rapid fire.

You ready? I want you to build your Mount Rushmore of fashion. So what do you? Like, who would be, like, the four or five faces that you feel like are like the most iconic fashion? Sarah. I know, right? I don't even, I feel offended. Well, people get offended if I am.

I'm just playing. I have to say my brother. Okay. Love Tracy Ellis Ross. Yes. Carla Welch, which is a stylist, and Tessa Thompson. Okay. Oh, I feel like she's a...

Tessa, but she dresses. Yeah, she puts it on. What is the first thing you notice when meeting someone? Their spirit. Instantly. Yeah, which could be good and bad, you know, because some... Yeah. So probably there's spirit for sure.

How do you navigate those moments where you're like some... Your spirit's off, but I still have to work with you, have to engage with you. How do you protect your spirit from those spirits? I think just that being able to discern what the spirit is and then go from there and know how to move like, oh, or is it a spirit of deception or is it a spirit of manipulation or is it a gaslighting or what is it? And so then maybe start tracking like, oh, are you that person? Are you that person? So being able to, I think the best way to protect it is to identify it. Yeah. Oh, that's good.

When was the last time you created something just because you wanted to? Flowers, but I love flowers. Like making arrangements? Really? Oh my God, that brings me life. It brings me so much joy.

Do you like go to the? I go to the farmer's market on Sundays, Brentwood Farmers Market, and just pick the freshest flowers and they just bring life. But for me, it's that creative outlet where it's like, I'm not getting paid, it's ain't a job. This is just something, and Mae Jones loves it too. How important is it for you to have outlets of creativity that don't have pressure connected to it? So much. That's where I thrive. Because you know it's like when you are in these spaces and you're working, you understand there's a different level of pressure, if you will. But then when you're doing it freely, there's just so much freedom. And it grows that little inner child in me too.

Yeah. Like, oh, I know that I need, you know, I need those creative moments because then I noticed I started resenting someone. of my work. Yeah, right. That has been my vow with writing. I love writing so much and I'm like I will never write just to write a book or just to get the check because writing is so sacred to me. So it'll be like years sometimes

before I have anything to write but I have to protect it because you will start resenting the word. And I noticed that. I noticed that I started resenting a little bit of when I was writing and was finishing up and then now with Natalie and I had to be honest with God like I'm actually angry. I'm actually bitter. This is

actually burning me out and I'm not having as much fun anymore. But I realized it was just because I wasn't being able to be creative in other spaces. But we're good now. Yeah, that's good. We're good now. But because sometimes you think that burnout is a sign that I need to quit it. But burnout for me has been a sign of like I need boundaries. I need to change the way that I'm doing it or I need to make sure that I have breaks in between. Exactly. And I think for me it was all of that. I need breaks in between. This is not your God. Yeah.

Put this down. Like, release this, surrender this. And then the boundaries. The boundaries in place. Like, actually, it's 5 o'clock. We don't need to continue to do this, you know? And I think, too, when you get so caught up in the results. Yeah.

And wanting everything to be okay, you then begin to jeopardize or compromise yourself in it. Because you want to please, like we talked about, others of the world. And then that's when it was like, once I got free from that, I was like, okay, I'm not, I'm not doing it this way anymore. I'm going to just do it, Kingdom's way. Because when I went going back to the conversation earlier, when I was doing it Culture's way, that's when I got in trouble. That's when I got in trouble where I was burnt out, when I was resentful. Yeah.

Because I wasn't seeing the culture's results. I was seeing the Kingdom's results, but I wasn't seeing culture's results. So that's where all of that bitter, anger, resentment. and then we have to mark that. I think that we need those moments. If anyone is creating content, you need the moments

where it doesn't go viral. You need the moments where it doesn't hit where the numbers don't line up because it makes you question whether or not you produced it so that it could go viral or if you produce it because you believe the message was important.

And when you believe the message is important, it will reach who it's meant to reach even if it's 50 people. It's not the one that does millions and millions of views. It's the one that does a few things and that person says, this really meant something to me and to honor that it was about that person

and not necessarily about the numbers. Bang, bang, bang. And that's where I had to find the freedom. Because after I did film season one, I was anchored in all that. I was anchored in external validation looking for it to satisfy this internal longing. And as we know,

that's just simply from aligning that way. But you're so right. And once I got that, I was like, oh, okay, if this impacts, One, I've done enough. Yeah. One, I've done enough.

Everything else is up to God. It ain't on me no more, you know? Yeah. So. Okay, one last question before we go. Yeah. If you could only eat one meal for the rest of your life, what would it be? One.

Is it appetizers, meal, and dessert? No, girl. Oh, my gosh. One, probably enchiladas, Mexican food. Okay. chicken sea chicken enchiladas chicken enchilada yeah for sure I like Mexican food what kind of sauce are we put on top of it some green sauce period some green sauce love it yeah thank you yes thank you for taking this time with me thank you for sharing it my my mama trauma yes I love that thank you for having me what an honor it is to sit here honestly thank you for trusting me real talk my pleasure thank you make it easy your heart's pure thank you There were so many things that Natalie said in this week's episode that I just felt like we're so open, honest, and vulnerable. Shout out to the women who are raising young women or around young women who remind them so much of themselves.

And you're just trying to keep that fire alive also just a little, just, you know what I mean? Just a little doting. No, you can't dot that. You know what I mean? But just a little something. You want to just rough them up, but not rough them up. But just shake them. you know what I mean? Just a little bit. But anyways, I am so grateful for your honesty, for your

transparency. There were just so many moments in this conversation about what it means to truly trust God with your life that resonated with me. And I know it's going to resonate with so many of you listening at home. It's my honor and my privilege to sit down with you, my sis. Make sure you subscribe to her podcast. And while you add it, make sure you go on and subscribe to hours, rate it, leave a review, share it with your friends. I love you all so much. And I just want and pray right now for the women who are out here. And boy, they're trying to lead and heal all at the same time. They're leading themselves. They're leading their families. They're leading their children. And sometimes the girls are tired. We are the girls. Lord, please meet us. Allow your spirit,

your presence to rest on us. To remind us that first we are children before we are mothers. to remind us that first we need healing before we can be a vessel for someone else's healing. Lord, I ask that you would search our hearts, search our ways, and help us to see the areas where we have grown, that we can be affirmed in our ability to overcome pre-existing barriers of development. And yet here we are further than we ever thought that we would be. May we cling to that and hold on to it as we step into the next, season of unknown. God bless the women who are listening to this podcast and the fellas because we know they be, we know they be listening to. Lead them as only you can guide them in Jesus name. Amen.