Woman Evolve with Sarah Jakes Roberts - The Cost of Yes

Episode Date: November 19, 2025

Sis, what happens when God calls you to do the very thing you said you'd never do? In this heartfelt conversation, Sarah Jakes Roberts and Dr. Anita Phillips get transparent about friendship, obedience, and the cost of saying yes when it changes everything. From unexpected callings to public pressure, they unpack what it means to follow God into unfamiliar territory, redefine identity after loss, and keep showing up when you feel fragile. It's funny, honest, and deeply spiritual—the kind of conversation that reminds you that obedience isn't about being perfect; it's about being dependent. So if you've been wrestling with God's instructions or trying to rebuild after a "yes" that shook your whole world, this one's for you.

Your purpose is the thing that requires you to fully depend on God so that his purposes can be performed through you. It is going to require that I partner with God for everything. PT texts me even said, you know, hey, do you have time to talk today? I was like, yeah, I'm free. And then the phone rang. And I remember staring at the phone. Like, this is a literal answer the call call. Like when I swipe and answer this call, my whole life is going to shift.

And so I answered. Hey family, it's your girl Kayla Waniqi here and I'm so excited to be hanging out with you on the Woman Evolve podcast this week. We are stepping into the holiday season and with Thanksgiving just around the corner, I've been doing a lot of reflecting on gratitude. And if I'm honest, this year has been heavy. But as I look back over the year, I can clearly see how God's. has carried me through it all. And I'm so very grateful for my village, the ways in which I'm learning to love myself more like God does, and prioritizing health and wellness on a consistent basis. Okay? Your girl is getting consistent and y'all will be so proud of me because I'm evolving

for real, for real. And although this year may have been challenging for so many of us, God has stretched us, refined us, and blessed us in ways we didn't even see coming. So my prayer is that you take a moment this week to slow down and truly thank God for the big things, the small things, and all the quiet miracles in between. Now, speaking of gratitude, today's episode is one we are truly thankful for. Pastor Sarah sat down with our girl, Dr. Anita Phillips, and y'all already know they had a good girlfriend time, full of kikis and heart checks as they get into all the deeps on sisterhood, leadership, and calling. Now, these two always leave us with something to think about, and I already know I'm taking notes today because the gyms are going to be rich. Now, before we jump in, a quick reminder, next week is Thanksgiving, so the podcast will be taking a short break as we all rest, reflect, and spend time with the people we love.

But don't worry, we will be back in December, and Pastor will be stepping back into the seat, stronger, refreshed, and ready to finish the year with us. So, if y'all are ready, like I'm ready, let's get into today. today's episode. Here is Pastor Sarah and Dr. Anita. I feel like there needs to be a theme. Like, I feel like this is the perfect time for the girlfriend's theme. So my girlfriend. There through thick and thin.

Yes. Yes. And it's thick. And it's thin. One thing about it, one thing about it is thick is. because it's ever been. Like, can we talk for a minute? Because, like, I started off the year so strong and doing so well.

And, like, I'm still working out, but I cannot keep food from falling into my mouth. I can't stop it. I'm just trying to change my relationship with my hip circumference because it's being maintained at a high level. And I see the scale going up. and I just can't bring myself to care. I have spent all of my caring for the year. I'm all out of it. I still step on it every day.

Me too. It's the truth and accountability situation. Yeah, I'm just going to be honest. You know, because if I don't, then I make up the stories like, girl, you didn't eat that much yesterday. No, you didn't do that bad this week. Didn't get on and be like, yeah, I did really bad. But at least each day, yes.

Accountability. But I'm not doing that different. I'm telling myself, like, it's waterway. And at the moment that you just stop eating the car, and you, it is, but the problem is I'm not, I'm not moving to the next part of the plan. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's like when we try to do that, well, muscle weighs more than fat and that's why I'm gaining weight and you just be like, you ain't gaining muscle that fast.

It doesn't work that way. It's also rest, you know, my body doesn't have enough time to recalibrate and transform the things because I'm not sleeping. Sleep is everything too. It's a game changer. So next week, we're. resting. This week you're resting. And what a rest you deserve. What a rest you deserve. Because your life, like, can we talk about it for a minute? Your life, you know, it just won't be

steel. It just will not. I'm like one of those cartoon characters holding on to the back of the train with your legs flapping in the wind, the runaway train. Like, it just won't be quiet. Every time I think that we're at a place of stillness, your life says, hold my communion cup, and then begins to take off in another unexpected direction. At the beginning of this year, you were like, foot loose and fancy free. Is that what they said? That was you. I remember her. I was feeling like, I got this now. The world is my oyster. I can do whatever. I'm like taking up space. You started off in Rome. You were just like so free. And look at you. Look at you.

Chains. Chains. I am a prisoner of Christ. A slave to the gospel. When I tell you, I went to Rome and I went to Rome because I wanted to visit Paul's tomb.

I wanted to walk where Paul had walked. That was one of the reasons Rome was on my bucket list. I wanted to get to that. And I should have known better. I should have known better. I should have known better than to go and kneel by the bones of the man who defined what it means to be a prisoner of the Lord. I mean, you play stupid games.

I played myself. But you've answered the call. You've answered the call. Child, what else can you say but yes to God? It's really something. You know, when we talked to Dr. Sarah Lewis last week and we talked about just her book, which is, I know it's 10 years old, but it's just so beautiful, the rise. And she's talked specifically about the gift of failure.

And, you know, I can remember, and this is like an annual thing at this point where we kind of close out the year together and just talk about womanhood and friendship and connection and community. But I can remember, I don't even think it was public, but as having some podcast moments where I knew you were in a moment of transition, a moment of, a moment of unwrapping a gift of what we believed would be glorious ruins. And there has been so many gifts that have been birthed from that moment of a rubble. I think that's what we called it when we had our podcast, building from the rubble. Because somebody had written a book about making power moves. Yuck. Wasn't it around that time?

It was. It was. Yeah, I thought so. Yeah. And my friend has discovered power in a new definition. And I don't know it would have been possible had you not gone through those moments of, I hate to use it. Because failure has such negative connotation, I think, especially as like Christian super spiritual people were like, it wasn't a failure. God, used it for your good.

Yeah, no, I have no need for that. I have no need for that. I use it delicately. You know. You know, I mean, a marriage. failed. Yeah. You know, that is, that is the truth. Divorce means a marriage failed. And so it did. Yeah, I'm getting a new relationship with the idea of failure this year, for sure. And what, the humility that is often required to move into what God has for us next. And I just

wasn't expecting this next at all, though. So you're right. My years have really been wild, you know, so it's like, okay, the last time that we were talking about that, and that, yeah, I had survived a divorce and moved to a new state. And I mean, everything changed. My life was unrecognizable from a few years earlier. And I thought, okay, we got this. And now it is unrecognizable again.

What's interesting to me is that most people would believe that if you go through a divorce and I think what could make your situation a little unique and please correct me if I'm wrong, a lot of people feel like they've lost themselves, especially when they've been in longer marriages, that they lose themselves and they don't have their identity. And I'm not suggesting that you didn't experience that,

nor am I suggesting that that's everyone's experience. However, I do think that most people would assume that because you were accomplished, because you had so many different things going for you, that though you experienced the failure of the marriage, that there was still this identity that had been cemented that could exist outside of the context of the marriage. And I think as your friend,

I certainly saw you be able to continue to do that. What I did not anticipate is that you would also step into a new dimension of identity in becoming a pastor. So can I ask you, friend, like, you are the lead pastor at one Los Angeles. How did we get here? What happened to you? here. Nobody. I'm not supposed to be here.

How did this happen to you? Who did it? Who did it? What happened? You know, I know people probably are wondering that. It really was God that did it. And it's so interesting because he is always interested in growing us. And the way you just said that about, okay, I had this identity that did persist outside of and beyond a marriage.

And that was 100% true. And I was so, I was grateful for that, you know, that that's something that I feel like I absorbed from my, from my mom and my grandmother about just always being who you are. I never felt lost in the role of wife. I never felt lost in a role of mother. You know, when my children went empty nest and we went empty nest, I was like, I love them to death. And also, like, I got plans. You know, I wasn't left wondering, what will I do now that my kids are gone?

That wasn't my experience. I know that is the experience for many moms, and that's fine, but for me, it wasn't. I was really clear. And so that did feel like a bedrock that did help me stay, remain, restabilized after being married for almost 27 years. And so while I was grateful, right, hey, but I do have this. Anita knows who she is. She is independent of all of these different relationships, of being mother, being wife, that identity existed. And then God was like, I'm glad that that helps you.

I'm glad you enjoyed that. Now watch me smack that out of your hand. Give you an identity that you were not expecting, not prepare for, not anything. And now I have to reshape my relationship with my identity. So the thing that felt like my bedrock, my stabilizer, now has been shifted entirely. And so, man, God be up the stuff. Can we reshaping our identity. Okay.

So most of us are at this time of the year where we are beginning to realize that we're at the end of it, things are wrapping up. And, you know, maybe some people have had the most amazing. My year wasn't necessarily bad, but it wasn't necessarily...

I mean, you had a little shift this year too, sis. We'll get to that. I was going... Okay, not too much. It's my podcast. I remember flying to Dallas to attend an installation. So, yeah, I think you had a little year this year, too.

I do think that it was a year of redefinition. It has been a year of redefinition. And redefinition doesn't necessarily feel good or bad. It just feels foreign. And I have had to... It felt a little bad. Period. For me.

What was that heat? We're still turning heat and the light. It's still hot. You know what the hardest part of this year was for me? It wasn't even necessary. Because I feel like the Dallas thing has been going on for so long that by time we stepped into it, the bad part of it, I had already become... Gotten through.

Yeah, yeah. Versus the whiplash that I experienced. Which was like, one day I was mine in my business and in the next day. Everything was your business. I wasn't. Yes. I do feel like, though, in this process, the hardest part for me this year was really what happened after WamanEval. I could not have imagined.

But now I see, I'm kind of like some people are like the early experiencers. of certain cultural shifts. And now I just see how easy it is to become like a trending topic. Like, and you're just like living your life in the way you've always lived your life. But now there's just so many opportunities for different opinions and perspectives about the way that you're showing up and a way that didn't exist before. And so I think that that probably invited me more than anything to reclaim my identity. You're going to talk about the conversation from last week.

where we talked about separating our outcomes and just having an offering. It really purified my offering in a way that I feel like I am still navigating and taking hold of my sacred identity outside of the outcomes that exist for other people, good or bad. And that reclamation process has probably been some of the hardest work that I've done this year. But I think it's also because ministry started for me from such a random place that I couldn't, I think for a long time, like, I could not believe that God was using me. Like, literally couldn't believe it. Like, I just could not believe it.

And that it was, like, impacting people's lives. Like, I couldn't believe. So the testimonies and stuff were affirming me in a way that I think that God desires to affirm me. So I almost needed this, like, Band-Aid ripped off where I could trust. and stand in what God did and that I said what God told me to say without needing the affirmation or validation

from others, especially in a world that's going to have so many different opinions and perspectives. So that was like the hardest part. The hardest gift to unwrap this year was that opportunity to not see people talking badly about

me as failure or people mischaracterizing me or misjudging me as failure, but as as an opportunity to really stand firm in who I know God's called me to be and to walk with humility and grace, right? I don't want to be unteachable, but also qualifying who the teacher gets to be. Oh, that's good.

We got to qualify. Some of these teachers that are trying to teach you lessons, they're not certified in you. Listen. They're not certified. They don't know how you like to learn. They don't know how you need to hear it. They don't know how to, not every person who has something to say to you or about you should have the ability to become the teacher that molds the way you show up in the world.

You've got to really seek God about who has he called to be a teacher for you and who is just in the peanut gallery making noise. And like I mean that like no shade, no, no, no shade, no tea, you know. Yeah. But it's the moment that we live in. Yes. There's a peanut gallery everywhere around every corner. And I'm such a delicate little flower. You are not.

I am a delicate flower. You are not. I am. You are big-hearted and you want, you care about people. And so that doesn't make you delicate. I'm so delicate. I'd be ready to not do the bit. But anyways, this isn't about me.

This is about you. I feel you, though. I feel you on that sense of delicacy, though. I've definitely felt like paper mache this year. Oh my gosh, I have felt that fragile. I am paper mache level, toss a pebble, and it's going to pop something. Like I have been so fragile this year. I have experienced fragility in a way that on a sustained basis that I've never experienced in my life like this.

Not like this. Not like this. because I was forced taking step in into the pastor role won the shock of it so for people who don't know how it happened maybe we should say it. Oh yeah so right right right let me tell you

how it happened and you can interject. You tell me how it happened. This is my story to tell. This is my story to tell. So the fires happen in Los Angeles created so much devastation and there was really

I think this Sunday, it may have not been the Sunday that you came. It was the Sunday before you came. To the team was so widespread. The city was in so much hurt that people were like, I don't even know if we should have church this Sunday. Like, no, we got to have a place to gather. But it had just been that devastating. And so my husband's just randomly walking around the house.

And he's like, I think I'm going to ask Dr. Needed to speak on Sunday because the city was still hurting. He had been there, but he really wanted to be careful, just loving the city through this difficult time. I'm like, I think that'd be brilliant. She's going to make sure that people feel safe, feel seen. She's going to create a sense of anchoring and grounding. And I think that'll be beautiful.

So we're in Dallas. My friends getting ready to preach in L.A. We've left service. We're watching on YouTube when we drive home, which is what we do. That's like our rhythm. When we leave Dallas, we turn on one in the car and just experience the service there. And I log in and you've got the room singing and connected. And there was this, the only way to explain it,

and one has been so critical in shaping my ministry journey and helping me to hear and understand the voice of God, the only thing I can say is it just felt like one. It felt like one has always been this space. There was literally a Yelp review or a Google review. That was like, one is the kind of church for people who don't like going to church. And it felt like the kind of service

where even in the midst of this devastation, even in the midst of this chaos, that there was an opportunity for harmony, for beauty, for anointed healing, if we could just get together. And it was so powerful that PT text me, he's like, are you watching this? I'm like, yeah, I'm watching this.

It's crazy. It's beautiful. It just felt like it tapped into the core of what one is. And you get to tell the story from here. So, yeah. So people would probably be surprised because of our relationship that was my first time ever speaking at one.

Yeah. And after living in California for almost two years, I hadn't even been up there on a Sunday because usually I'm traveling and speaking on the weekends. And so it was my first Sunday morning at one in five years. And it was my first time ever speaking there. And when I walked in, I just had this rush in my spirit like, man, why haven't I been here every week?

Like I just felt like this is where I should be when I'm home. I'm going to start coming more. You know, I was just like, man, this room. And during the first service, I was just looking at the people. And I was just like, man, I just love these people. It was this overwhelming love and joy. And I was like, yeah, I definitely got to come here more. I should have been coming.

And then preach the first service. Come back for the second service. I'm in worship. I'm looking around. I close my eyes. I'm just having my worship moment. And then I open my eyes. And I hear that part of me, the prophetic, that speaks words to other people, say,

oh, my God, I'm the pastor of this church. And I was like, what? The Anita brain and the prophetic were having this conversation, and I was just like, no way, no way. And I just started laughing in that moment because it was ridiculous, but I also kind of had this wave of joy. I knew it was the truth, but it was wild. And then I had to go up and preach. So there was that. I had to go back up, preach the second service.

And I left and said nothing. She said nothing. And you are like, I said nothing. So Pt and I are like, are you watching this? Are you watching this? And she's preaching. And so I text her and I'm just like powerful services at one today. I'm like, I think I asked her, how'd you feel?

And, you know, she's like, you know. I should pull it up. You have to scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll. Let me get the receipt on that. We were like talking so ambiguous. I'm like, how'd that feel for you in the room? And, you know, she's that. I think kind of churched me like, you know,

I was a hope I was a blessing to the people. and God certainly needs. Uh-huh, yeah, yeah, yeah. If you ever need me to serve again, just call, no problem. And I kind of just was like, I tested it. I just put them Googling, them like emoji eyes. Just kind of like, did we see the same thing? The side eye.

And she didn't say anything to me about it. But PT, let me tell you something about that man, PT. He doesn't beat around the bush. I thought it was just me. Like when he met me, he was just so enamored by me that he didn't beat around the bush. What I know now that I didn't know that. is that he doesn't beat around the bush. I don't think it may have been Monday morning at 6 a.m.

And he's like calling her like, hey, did you feel that? Because I felt something there. It was like 6.49 a.m. Something like that. Not that you remember. Not that I remember. But after we were texting and you were just like, hey, you know, we're seeing something here. And I'm just like, yeah, well, praise the Lord, L.O.L.

You know, anything you need. I'm there. And I will never forget this. See the text. I have it right here, right? I'll never forget this. Yeah, but you said, we'll pray. God has never not spoken to you.

Yeah. This we know. And I just said, that's a fact. And then there's my girl. Sitting down. Just taking it. Yes. And I was it.

But I still didn't say anything, even though God had already spoken. Because I was like, yeah, I got to go to sleep and see if that's still here when I wake up tomorrow because this is not a small thing. No, it's huge. Yeah, this is huge. Went to sleep. I didn't say anything about it to anyone. Not any of my other friends.

I just went to sleep. Woke up the next morning at 5.30 a.m., which I don't do. And I felt like the Holy Spirit was standing over to bed. Like, good morning. I'm still here. And I was like, dang, still there, still there. I called a friend, prayer warrior friend. I shared it with them.

They were like, yeah, I wow. Wow. And then PT texts me around 630, 640 and said, you know, hey, do you have time to talk today? I was like, yeah, I'm free for about three hours. And then the phone rang. And I remember staring at the phone like this is a literal answer the call call. Yeah, yeah. Like when I swipe and answer this call, my whole life is going to shift. The actual foundation of my life is going to shift. You know, and so I answered. Let's talk for a minute about something being divine and terrible. divine and difficult. And I feel like this is such, this is that.

And let me tell you why, because if you're listening, you're like, you know, how could obedience ever be difficult? That means to me that you've never fully really obeyed. Sometimes God calls you to do something that requires you to abandon everything that makes you feel secure, comfortable, confident, powerful so that you rely solely on him. this willingness to lay your life down, to abandon your life, to step into the call is excruciating.

It just is. You are vulnerable all of the time. You are uncertain some of the times. And the only time that you... Well, the only... Well, I'll say most of the time. In some ways, most of the time, yeah. The only time that you're not

is when you are fully in the thing, that he's called you to do. Because then there are some moments for me where I am just so sure that this is where I'm supposed to be that there's no room for uncertainty in that moment. Yeah, I guess uncertain. There's no room for uncertainty in

am I doing what God said to do? Did I hear God correctly? No one for that. Uncertainty in terms of like, what skills do I need to develop? I haven't done this before. The human part of me. but like there was no uncertainty in this,

which should have been a warning, right? That it was so clear. And then God speaks to me, God speaks to PT, God speaks to you. I think one of the moments I always laugh at is when he called and we were having the conversation and you were on the phone as well. And I finally admitted that God had spoken this thing to me.

And he was just like, did she tell you that? You know, it was like, no, she didn't tell me. Because it would have been over already, you know. It was like, here we are. And then there were so many other confirmations. was just like boom boom boom boom and it's like when god front loads confirmation like that in this undeniable way yeah you're being anchored deeply because the strength of the wind to come will require that that there has not been a moment when i could say in any real way maybe we all miss god on this no no nope nope nope

nope and when that door is closed like people think they want that you want this absolute surety that i am in the will of god but honey when that happens click, click, that's it. You really can't. Go ahead, go ahead. There's no rethinking it. You know what I mean? Like, you want to be like,

if I just know what a hundred percent that is God's will, I'll be fine. I don't know, fine, fine. I don't know what fine is, but it's the weightiest, it's the weightiest thing I feel like I've ever said yes to. And I've said yes to a lot of things. But this one, this one is no joke.

You know, I feel the same way about Dallas, though. I feel like it just pulls from what I know I don't have, but what I know God will give me. And the thing between don't have and getting it, that little space in between. And then I just don't think, people want, you want to know your purpose, you want to know your purpose. Your purpose is the thing that requires you to fully depend. on God so that his purposes can be performed through you. The thing that you say, you know what, I cannot do this the way that I have been called to do it with my own strength, my own resources, my own knowledge.

It is going to require that I partner with God for everything. And if you are mis-independent. If you are, I don't need nobody. I don't want to rely on nobody. It is possible that that also shows up in your relationship with God. where you would rather God just give you a command and you perform it than to have to walk out partnership with God that requires dependency,

step by step, teaching and leaning in and guiding. It has this way of making you feel small and larger than life at the same time. It's something. Teeny, tiny, no, it is. And when I was in Rome, when I did find Paul's tomb, and we got lost and turned around, it took us two hours to find it. Like I was about to give up and it's just like I cannot give up.

I knew I had to get there. I get beside that tune. They have these kneelers where you can kneel down like to pray. And I just got down on my knees there and all of a sudden burst into tears. There was this weeping that I could not stop. I almost panicked because I'm like, what is this thing that's happening? And I know now that my spirit was ahead of me and what God was asking me for and what he was giving me that I was going to need. It was

mind-blowing. And all I could say at that space was, I don't know what this is that you're placing on me, this weight, but I'm saying yes to you, even though I don't know what it is. But it is this heavy. And this was it. Or at least this is the first manifestation. The pastor roll is the first manifestation of what that was happening to me that day.

I can't say this is all it is, it's definitely that the weightiness of it, but it also felt like an honor. It felt like it just felt like giving everything. It was like the biggest yes ever. And the fact that God asked me for it and extracted it from me before I knew what it was, like that's one of the anchoring points.

But it did transform the way I'm living. So I think I might have said this last year, how when I was walking through my marriage ending and walking through divorce, it was so emotionally painful that my inner world became very noisy, noisier than it's ever been. So throughout my life, I always had a strong inner voice. And as my relationship with God grew, I could hear God. I had an internal conversation anchor.

And once I had that, I could always see the horizon past any storm. But it was so noisy inside of me. at that time that for the first time in my life, my inner world was too noisy for me to feel like I was hearing clearly, which was very disconcerting. So I had to change, I had to relate to God in a totally new way. So I described that season as pillar of cloud by day, pillar of fire by night.

I had to actually follow the signs that God was giving me so I knew what my next external step was. I did not have an inner compass, an inner voice. I had to follow with my eyes, so to speak. never had to do that before. Very disconcerting. Got it down pat, though. It took a couple of years.

I got really good at it. And now I'm in another one. I'm in daily bread life now. Yeah. And that's new. That is new again. So I got that internal voice came back. Like when God spoke and realized, like,

I'm the pastor of this church, that was the loudest internal rise that I had had in a couple years. So that was the shift. I recognized it. And then I got thrust into this truly daily bread, mercies are new every morning, what do I have for today? And that's it. And that's a whole new way of living now with God. And I'm not a fan. Yeah, I gotta be honest. It's still hard. It's very

hard for me to do this. And I know people, so many, I don't know, but so many people have said to me, everyone that I've talked to has said, I can easily see you as a pastor. Oh, that makes so much sense, but I'm not one of them. I did not see that at all. I didn't see it at all. So it's big for me. As you're talking, I don't know if it's because I'm tired or because I love you or what, but I feel a little emotional because I'm thinking to myself about like, what makes this so hard for me? Like, what is it that? Because I'm just trying to tap into what the difficulty has been for me. And I feel like it's so multifaceted, like the pressure and the pain of it. Unrelenting pressure. And it's like, I don't want to, I don't want to mess this up. You know what I mean? I really, I take so seriously this honor and

privilege of being a trusted voice and a leader. And I only want to, I only want to to give them what God tells me. And I just, I feel like I love, I just love the people so much that I love them enough to say that you deserve better. And I don't even mean that like in a funny way. I know what you mean. I feel like you deserve someone better. I don't know what better looks like.

Maybe it's someone more educated. Maybe it's someone more eloquent. Like I just, I love you enough to say that I really feel like you deserve better. And so I'd be like, God, if you don't want to use me or if you're not going to use me or something's wrong. I just want to put it out there. You know, this Sunday when I get up there, just like make it so clear. And he just continues to show up. And so I'm just like, okay, I am who God is using for this time and this moment.

And then the humility of that is another. type of excruciating. Yes, that part. Because then it's just like, Lord, of all, like, I know, I know of a few people could do this better in the fact that you would use me and allow your spirit to rest on me

and that you restore, like, you really do restore me and you haven't forgotten about me. And I don't know, it's just I want to get to a place where that doesn't take me by surprise, but I also never want to to allow that to become so normal to me that I forget how beautiful it is.

Yeah, no, I'm with you. I think I concur, I concur, I second that in every way. I don't know that there's any skill set, education, whatever can be obtained externally. That would change that because I think in case, is like hours. God will just strip all that away anyway in terms of its usefulness

so that it, again, like you said, the dependency. The dependency, you know? It's what he wants. And the humility, I felt like I had a grasp on humility before. But now I'm lower. Lower.

Lower, lower, lower. Lower, lower. You used to see that vacation Bible school came around and did you. And it has felt like that because when I am doing something new, so I have a new book that is coming out. But early in January, I was like workshopping it. I had put together this group of people and I was meeting with them once a week

just like teaching the material, walking through it. I wanted to make sure it was going to be clear. And I remember saying to them, this is before one dropped into my life, that that was even a new pursuit for me because I don't bring things out until they done. I don't learn in public. I don't know how to do something. I will learn how to do it first and then I will come outside. I have a trainer who comes to teaching me the boxing thing. I don't go to the boxing class. You come let me figure this out and then I'll show up looking like a halfway know what I'm doing. But I don't go from scratch out here in the street. And so it was a big move for me to

come to them with like undone work. But it was really beneficial. But I couldn't, I feel like stepping into the lead pastor role at one, I'm having to learn to do this. In front of people. In front of everyone. I hate that too. I hate that too. The world.

You guys, like the layer that that brings into our relationship, PT, like, oh my God. I don't get a chance to be an expert at anything right now that's related to what I'm doing. And so you said earlier, the vulnerability is just a state of existence. that is contrary to how I prefer to live. And it's tough stuff.

It's tough stuff. But it is about this consistent vulnerability where I am allowed to be completely human and not let that diminish how much I believe in what God is saying to me, telling me, you know, to not trust yourself and to trust yourself to hear him at the same time.

Yeah. So someone listening, would say, why would you, why? Why do it? Why do it then? Yeah, right? One of the things that does give me confidence is knowing his, knowing his voice, and that I am, I can look back now and see that this does absolutely make sense in the arc of things. And so I trust God. Don't look at me. Don't look at a pastor Sarah and be like, yeah, I would never want to say yes. to that level of smushing, crushing, because we,

this is not 101, we're not at 101. This postdoc work is in the spirit. Like we are, we are operating at the level of experience, call, whatever that God has required of us. You have to say yes to what he requires of you.

Yeah, yeah. But it will, it will cost everything. And if you got five cents in your pocket is going to cost five cents. And if you got $5,000, it's going to cost that. If you got $50, it's going to, it will cost everything. everything. But there's these moments, there's these moments, especially on a Sunday or sitting with a

member one-on-one or women's Bible study. There's these moments that I pause to memorize, that I let my body soak up, these moments of what the worship sounds like. These moments when I see someone who I've known been going through something hard hit that altar at church and I see them getting their breakthrough and I've had the privilege to pour into them, but now I see God coming and doing Like there's these moments when you have this awareness that I would have done it all for right now. I had have done it all for right this minute for God. And I hold on to those and I reflect on those in between those moments. Like that's the best way I can explain it.

It's even as much as it is costing, it is worth it because what's that, what's that scripture say? you know, that the weight of glory will outweigh. The weight of the glory to be revealed will completely outweigh this. And I do see that. We do see that. A woman evolved, we saw that. Yeah. And the weight of thread cannot outweigh the glory.

The weight of the peanut gallery cannot outweigh the glory. Like, it just doesn't. And so that's why you say yes. That's why I could not have resisted saying yes in Rome to a call and a weight that I didn't even know what it was, but I felt the heaviness, but the love affair that me and God have, okay, and I say yes to him,

that that love affair is rock solid, and I don't ever want to not be in it. Nobody wants to be Jonah either. For me, it's kind of like, I know enough to know that one thing, one thing they'll say a lot about the girl, but one thing they'll never be able to say is that like,

when I have a conviction, I act on the conviction. Now, if he ain't convicted me about it, I don't know what to do. And y'all, I'm a witness because I can remember those conversations with Sarah before Dallas. It was just like, hmm.

Him ain't speak to me yet. And when him speak, I will not ignore how obvious of God. It's a no for me to listen to God. I don't care. I don't care what it looks like. I don't care what happens when I preach there until God makes it clear that that's where these hips belong,

I will be over here in my house. Because I don't care about the aesthetic of it all. Right, I love that about you. I don't. But when God gives me a conviction, I move on it. And I can't not do it because I do believe that the safest place in the world is in the will of God. And I believe that conviction moves us towards that,

will. And so a lot of times people are wondering, like, how do I do this? How do I do that? Your conviction is your guide. It's the Holy Spirit leading you and guiding you. And sometimes because the Holy Spirit isn't convicting us about our destiny, our generational wealth, are this or that, we feel like, well, just because he's convicting me about this, if he don't convict me about that, I'm not going to move. But we don't understand that obedience creates an atmosphere for us to move further into the vision that God has for us in his master plan. And so practicing saying yes on a small level is how we build the muscle to say yes on a big level.

So to your point, Dr. Anita, like we had to say yes in a few small ways that didn't seem like a big deal so that when it was time to say yes in some hard ways, we couldn't say no. We couldn't say no. And that's, man, that's a whole thing right there

to dive into. The difference between a wholehearted yes and I can't say no and they're linked. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, the Jonah is why we can't say no because we know better. I know better.

This is not going to go well for us. I wish I didn't. He will ruin. I know the Lord. Like, y'all want to talk about the Lord who will bless you and all that. I said yes, I want to talk about Old Testament God who says if you do not do what I ask you do,

I'm going to let pestilence fall upon you. I'm going to let you be captured. I'm going to make sure your life is ruined. And the moment you call out to me, I can reverse all of those things, but you're not just going to be out here doing you when I need you to do me. Facts.

And it's not worth the resistance, right? Because Jonah, let's get in Jonah. Yes. Jonah, not only, he ran away because he didn't want to do it. His heart wasn't right. He jumps in the water because he don't want to hurt other people, right?

Because he boat's about to go down and hurt other people. So we will have those moments where you say yes because you realize your yes is about to hurt other people. Yeah. Then he gets in the water. the whale gets him, he spends the three days. He comes out of the whale because he has agreed to do what God told him to do.

So he goes and does it. But Jonah's story doesn't end well because he didn't let God change his heart. It changed his, Jonah had a change of direction. Yeah. But he did not have a change of heart. Yeah. He was left sitting on the side of that mountain mad at God for not destroying Nineveh because he still wanted Nineveh to be destroyed.

And so, like, I think that we're always. and I know this from talking to you and you know this from talking to me. Like for us, it's not even just about the yes to do the thing. It's this yes. Yeah. I want to be on the same page as God in my heart.

I don't want to just do it. Jonah did it, but he didn't have a change of heart. And so that opening up and letting God just rip our hearts out to reconstruct them. Yeah, I'll give you a heart of flesh. Yes. I'll give you the desires of your heart.

I will help you. you desire this. And now I can take- And then I will fit and meet it. Yeah. You know, the potter's house represented a lot of, a lot of different things for me. One, I grew up, I hated church. I just did.

I just hated church. We were there all of the time. I didn't have any of the church spiritual gifts. It didn't make sense to me. So I really saw it as a place of just like boredom. It took my parents away from me in my mind. Like, you know, now whatever, we can get into a whole thing about that. because my mom has reflected and said, you know, it didn't have to be that way.

And so you're talking about the bodykeeping score. This building, this place has represented a place of restriction, of hurt, of grief, of pain for me. And now God wants me to lead there. And so one of my prayers was like, God, help me to love these people and to love this place the way that you love it. So I feel like the first couple of years of being there wasn't even about like what's the succession plan.

what's the is there a plan. It was really God changing my heart towards the place where I was excited. I'd be excited to go to church, which is like crazy because. People don't know, but yes, that is. You, you know, and to love on the people and that I don't have to pretend to be someone I'm not to do it. Like, I don't go up there and pretend that I'm someone else. Like, I get to be myself and serve what God's doing in the lives of people. And, you know, but God gets.

me a heart for it. And I, you know, lately I feel like God's working on my heart in a way that I'm having a difficult time giving language to, but I do feel like there is an identity transformation that's taken place in my heart, a settling into who God is, who God has always been. So I read scripture and I'm like, I think that's who you are. And he's like, girl, not only is that who I am, that's who I've always been. I love that. That's who I've always been. And so I was reading, it was like Isaiah 44,

and he was talking to Israel, and he says something, oh, Lord, help me to remember. Oh, he said that he blotted out their transgressions. It's like a thick cloud. I blotted out your transgressions, and, you know, all I see is you is purely, and then he goes, return to me. And it's like,

sometimes we're distant from God because we think that he remembers and that he'll hold us to that moment that we can't forget, not realizing that he's not even looking at it. He's like returned to me that I haven't moved its shoe. And it's like, God, you stayed in position.

Like, while I was hating church, you was like, you'll be back one day. You'll be back. And your heart will be in a better place and you'll be healed and you'll see the beauty in this place. And your parents will take ownership of the ways that they showed up in your childhood. It'll be okay.

It'll be okay. And I feel like God is loving on me in a way that I don't want to miss. So I'm finding myself, forcing myself to be present. You know me. I'm a planner. I'm like, I'm never in the moment because if you're in the moment, you're not planning for the future. And so I am really reminding myself to like, experience this joy, experience this peace,

and to keep God's presence in front of me and all the things that I do. And in keeping his presence in front of me, I'm able to see all of the ways that his love is headed my way. I love that. It comes back to the love affair. Yeah. It comes back to that love affair.

Staying in the moment is big for me right now, too. Like I said, Daily Bread. What Dr. Sarah said last, week about that arc of history. Yeah, yeah. I've been, I'm very much clinging to what I know about the arc of his, the story he's been writing in my life. So it's, he's, it's a cliffhanger right now.

It's a cliffhanger, you know, like where are you going with this? Where are you going with this? Exactly. Because it was to step into the pastoral role, it was like such a big, it just, it felt like a comet hit the planet, that is me. Everything just got pushed out of place and I'm trying to understand how it fits into my overall identity, life, course, everything. And I'm just like, okay, but you know what? God has absolutely blown me away with the story. He has written up to this point. Yeah. So I'm going to do my daily bread, but I have so much confidence in the arc of the

story that he's writing about my life. And that helps me to not be anxious about time, you know, because I turned 52 years old this year, you know, I'm calling half, you know, I'm going to 104. You know, my grandmother lived to be 103 years, 11 months, and some days old, almost 104. So I'm like, okay, we'll do 104. So maybe I'm half done, but there's something weighty about that, you know, I'm thinking about, like, my age. I'm looking at my children be adults and what I want to accomplish. But right now I don't feel like it's my story to write. Yeah.

He knows the desires of my heart and my thoughts, but just trusting him, the arc of the story he's writing about my life, lets me stay in this daily bread moment, if that makes sense, and that's necessary. I never disliked church in the way that you once did. But I had a generational storyline about what it means to be a pastor. And I had no interest. So I wasn't just surprised by being pushed in this position, but it's touching something for me that I was like, because anybody who knows me, including you, knows how much this is ridiculous.

And I was just like, I will never have to worry about that again. I won't date a pastor. I mean, I was like, it will never. I was real loud about it, that it would never be. And then here we are. So God is working out something for me as well. and just a surprise about how he does fulfill his word. Yeah.

Right? Because we can know God speak something, but not know how it's going to manifest. And when we first met and started, like, when God put us together as friends, one of the things I knew also was that he had called me to labor in partnership with you in ministry in different ways. Didn't see this one, though.

No, not at all. Didn't see this Potter's House situation. I have to tell you though And I know we have to hop off But I want to say this For those of you who are listening in particular You know Dr. Anita did have a very long list of what she wasn't going to do And dating a pastor was one of them for sure

And after all of the holy sacred moments of you know Earlier this year transpired I had to be the petty friend that was like now look at you A whole clown Look at you With your big old red nose Miss, I ain't going to date a pastor, has now become one. The pastor.

Now folks out there saying that about me. I ain't going to date a pastor and I'm the pastor. Child, this was a flip script of epic proportions. One word to define who you have become this year. Dependent. It hurts me. Terrible. I felt that.

all in his area. Yes. But that's the word. I heard that word immediately when you asked. I was waiting for another one, but another one didn't come. And so it is dependent in a way that I have not been before, dependent on God. And dependent on the people who love me and surround me as well. Yeah.

Yeah. Dependence. It's a moment of deep dependence. And we say that all religiously. but like I'm saying that in a very real way. The kind that makes your stomach churn a little bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The kind that makes you want to lay down in the fetal position.

The kind of dependence you don't always want to have the experience of. I'm having that in a deep, deep way this year. But I'm starting to see sparks of what God is doing in that. Yeah. And so I know it's going to be good. My word, and I don't know why this is my word, so I'm going to take it into my prayer closet, but steady. I feel like the Lord has really made me steady this year.

Maybe more sturdy, but steady. Uh-huh. Yeah. And I'm going to figure out what that is. Maybe that's what I'll talk to the podcast about next week is why. I just had this image of, I used this example in a message earlier this year, but when boxers are training, one of the things that blur. me away the most is they do exercises that make their neck strong.

Like they're literally like got things on their head and they're like lifting weights with their neck to make their neck strong because when something hits, some of them, it barely even move. Yeah. Because they're able to absorb it. They are able to remain steady even when they're hit. Like a hit that would not be clear to the ground barely turns their head because of the strength that they've built.

And that's the image that I just had when you said sturdy. It's like, yeah, it's not even going to put you off balance. Because the strength that he's building. So you got this. I love you, friends. I love you. Okay, listen, I told y'all they were coming in hot with the gyms today. And I hope something in that conversation spoke to your heart.

and reminded you of your strength or even gave you a fresh perspective as you head into this holiday season. We also want to encourage you to truly pause and take a moment to name what you're grateful for. Not just what's perfect, but what's been purposeful. God has been faithful in ways we didn't expect. And gratitude has a way of awakening joy, peace, and clarity. So prioritize that during this holiday season. Also, don't forget, we're taking a break next week for the holiday, but we'll be right back in December with Pastor Sarah at the mic,

ready to close out the year with all of us. You're not going to want to miss what's coming, because you know our girl is coming through. Now, thanks for rocking with us, for growing with us, and for being part of this woman evolved community. Have an amazing Thanksgiving. Stay safe, stay grounded, and always keep evolving. Evolve.