Woman Evolve with Sarah Jakes Roberts - Turning Heat Into Light

Episode Date: November 12, 2025

When the pressure is on, do you shut down or shine up? In this powerful convo, Sarah Jakes Roberts sits with Dr. Sarah Elizabeth Lewis and Dr. Anita Phillips to talk creativity, the gift of failure, and how to separate your work from your worth. They unpack why dreaming can feel risky right now, how to handle pressure without losing your identity, and what it means to build on what broke. From "turning heat into light" to seeing art as a path toward justice, this episode will meet you where it hurts and remind you there is purpose in your process. If you've been grieving a job loss, navigating a creative dry spell, or questioning your next move, press play and get language, wisdom, and courage for the season you're in. Keywords: Sarah Jakes Roberts, Dr. Sarah Elizabeth Lewis, The Rise, Dr. Anita Phillips, creativity, failure, resilience, faith, mental health, Black women, vision and justice.

It is my belief that God desires us to be in relationship with people because his plan is best manifested through partnership, but not to be relying on our affirmation, our identity to come from other people. That is my hope that we see the creative gift that we've been given as one that is foundational for how we redefine. We can be in society. It will not always be like this. Stay well and stay ready and keep pouring out your gifts because things will shift. Well, well, well, look who the cat has drugged. What are you doing with your life?

What is happening in your world, baby? Is you barely hanging on? Are you doing all that you can? What is happening? Are you showing up with strength and courage and, like, you're full and confident? Or are we just ready for everyone to get somewhere to sit down and not touch anything?

No matter where you are on the spectrum, I just want you to know that I am grateful that you are choosing to start your day with me. me, that means something to me, and I am grateful. And I love to mind your business, and I'm going to get into that. But first of all, let me see, how am I doing? I am both barely hanging on and unbothered at the same time. I think because I'm barely hanging on, I am choosing selectively where I am giving my energy, and it has been liberating. Did I tell y'all the story about the dog? Did I tell y'all the story about the dog? I can't remember when I recorded. But here's the

thing. The point is this. I had something happen with the family and the dog and my husband really inspired me because he was so clear on what he could or could not do that it made me realize that I have been bending and stretching and twisting and contorting to make things happen that I did not have to take on the sole responsibility for. Like no one told you you have to. You have to had to do all of that on your own. You chose to do it all on your own so that you, because you didn't think other people would be willing to be inconvenienced or because you didn't want to inconvenience to them. And now look at you. Inconvenanced. That's your first, middle, and last name. Look at you, tired, broke down, weary, not what God wants for me. And so you know what I said?

I decided to start creating boundaries. And I am practicing this by being present in my body. And you guys have heard this before. Like, I'm being present in the moment because the only thing about taking on all of these responsibilities is that you cannot afford to think in the moment. You need to think 12 steps ahead. And when you're thinking 12 steps ahead, you never know how this step currently feels. Like, am I standing on sand? Am I standing in the mud? Am I standing on solid ground?

I'm 12 steps ahead, which means I'm not planted here right now. And so I have been choosing to be planted in the moment to determine, like, how is this experience making me feel? Do I feel empowered? do I feel afraid? Do I feel nervous? Like I'm asking myself, and what can I change in this moment to keep this from happening again? Sometimes it's communicating, sometimes it's readdressing my day. Whatever it is, it's been liberating, and it's been helpful for me.

And maybe that will be a little bit helpful for you. I'm recording this on November 6th next week on the 11th, when the 11th comes before this actually dropped to my husband and I are celebrating 11 years of wedded bliss. And it really has been what it blissed. Like on one hand, it doesn't feel like it has been that long, but it also feels like it's been forever. But I have learned and grown so much. Maybe I'm going to make him do an episode with me.

And we can maybe bring five and a half things that we each learned in the last 11 years. And that'll be what we do next. Okay. So, all right, let's get into this week's episode. Well, no, let me get into this week's. Mind your business question. Good morning.

I was walking to the store and I started listening to your podcast. And the part that stuck with me the most was worrying and anxiety. And right now I'm having those issues. I am stressed from work a little bit. while I'm in a position that I feel was meant for me because I have a boss who's advocated for me I am feeling insecure and not being seen or acknowledged by him and I don't know if he understands that and I've talked about that with him but I don't know how that sat with him and so I'm worried about that and the outcome of that conversation that I had with him and how I will be

perceived. I'm 60 years old and I have over 36 years experience and I know who I am but for some reason the past number of years I've just been feeling some kind of way about myself and just feeling unworthy. And I don't know where it comes from. I think I know where it comes from. And then I have one of my adult sons who lives with me. And he doesn't treat me very well. Currently he's not talking to me.

And it's happened for a number of years where he doesn't want to talk to me because maybe I see something that he doesn't like. And I'm exhausted in that because I do everything. And he's here. And I don't ask much of him. And maybe that's the problem. And whenever I say something that he doesn't like and he gets upset, he will stop talking to me.

It's been almost a month. And they just, It just, I'm feeling just really unworthy. And I'm feeling ancient. And I'm tired. I'm very tired. And I don't want to feel like this anymore. And so, yeah, the part of the podcast that stood out was being ancient and worried.

The moment that I heard your voice crack, my heart just started going to. out to you. I am so sorry that your heart is so tender right now, that you're feeling insecurity and frustration and worry and anxiety. I feel like the world is hard for so many people right now, but hearing the personal stories of how life is difficult, it just, it breaks my heart. And I think you should know that it breaks the heart of God. Anytime we aren't showing up in the way that God designed or desired for us. I know that it breaks God's heart because God knows that our ability to show up in the way that he desires and designed will ultimately bring us health. And so it's not like he's ashamed of us or condemns us when we aren't showing up in that way.

It's actually quite the opposite. His heart goes out to us. It longs for us to bring us to a place restoration and reconciliation, and I can sense that even now, that that's God's heart for you. You mentioned so many things, and of course, without knowing some of the nuances and details, I can't give you specific advice on how to handle each scenario, but there is something that you kind of skipped over that I want to offer you as a starting point for prayer and reflection. You said over the last few years that you've been feeling insecure.

And then you said, I don't really know where it came from. You go, well, I really, I think I know where it came from. I don't know what that is. And to be honest, I don't need to know what it is. All that I know is that whatever it is,

it changed the way that you see yourself. And while the incident itself may have origin, I will say that anything that makes sense, you see yourself differently than the way that God sees you is the plot of the enemy. There is a real adversary and sometimes we're so frustrated trying to figure out where is God in the midst of something and how could God allow X, Y, and Z to happen that we forget that we have a real adversary, that God allowed us to have free will and to allow the enemy, his plans to have

access to us with the belief that we could thwart it, that we would be dependent enough on God to seek his strength and his wisdom on how to overcome the enemy. Of course, we hardly ever do that. We think that we can do it in our own strength, in our own will, in our own way, and then we end up living with the results of that. And what struck me as you were talking in Genesis 3, and I've never really thought about this, is part of how the enemy allowed his plan, to attempt, heavy on the word, attempt to thwart God's plan, was that he presents to the woman and the man in the garden, something that makes them question the way they see God.

And he says to them in Genesis 3 that you won't die. God knows that in the day you eat at this fruit, that your eyes will just be open and you'll be like God. And so it seems like, you know what? I can't trust what God said to me. I can't trust what God said about me. I can't trust that God has my best interest at heart. That is where he started. But what's interesting is that what happens on the other side of them eating from the fruit is that it actually changed the way they saw themselves. He started by making them question God. He ends on making them change the way they see themselves.

How do we know this? Because they ate from the fruit, the number. moment they eat from the fruit, they notice they're naked and they try to cover themselves. They were naked all along, never saw a problem with the way they were showing up all along, but something happens. And when that something happened, it changes the way they see themselves. I don't know what happened to you. I don't know the origin of the pain you're currently experiencing, but I just want you to know that it is possible that it didn't even start with whatever that circumstance is that it actually started by intention from a real adversary, a real enemy meant to change the way you see yourself. You know what happens when you no longer see yourself as powerful,

as one who has dominion, as one who is worthy, as one who is beautiful in spite of all of the things that would, all of the evidence that would suggest otherwise, that when you begin to see yourself not through the lens of mercy like God does, not through the lens of grace like God does, but you see yourself as a direct reflection of whatever went wrong, you start to feel insecure. You don't speak up for yourself. You need other people to validate your needs

and your worth and your value. And when they don't, you begin to turn into a shell of who you are. It is my belief that God desires us to be in relationship with people because his plan is best manifested through partnership, but not to be reliant on our affirmation, our identity, our posture to come from other people. And navigating that fine line is hard because sometimes people are the way that we cope. Sometimes they're the way that we feel safe and comfortable. And so I do believe that perhaps

there's a reorientation available to you. When you look at whatever it is that happened to you, without placing blame, without saying, you know, this person did this to me and now I'm stuck, I want you to consider how did the plan of the enemy change the way that I saw myself as a result of this experience? Because the reality is no matter what happened and who was at fault and whether you were the victim or the villain in the situation, I think it's important to realize that it all started with the enemy. So we're not going to just attack who did it. we're going to go straight for the source. And part of going straight for the source is going to require faith, right?

Faith that I can be restored from this, faith that I can be redeemed by this, faith that the Holy Spirit can meet me in this area and level of my brokenness and empower me. There are some practical things that come to mind, but I don't know your situation well enough to tell you exactly how it can play out. But I do think that there is a possibility that you have allowed people to believe that you are stronger than you actually are, that you are more. resilient than you actually are, that you can handle being ignored, being talked crazy to in a way that actually impacts you. And because we cannot change them, we can change the way we show up

in the situation. And part of changing the way you show up in the situation is asking for help when you needed. It is letting someone know that you're a human too, that that hurts you. It's owning the moments where you could have said things differently. You mentioned saying things to your son and maybe you could have said them better. I think there's room for us to say, you know what? When I had this explanation, I was upset. I've been harboring it in for a long time. And I said it in a way that wasn't productive or healthy. It doesn't change my need for X, Y, and Z, but I want to do a better job at communicating it. There's room for you to take up space in your life in a way that makes you feel more confident. Confidence is not built

by someone else affirming you. Confidence is built when we can trust that we can show up in the way that God has designed, declared, desired, and that the world responds to that. I have confidence that I can survive. I have confidence that I can speak up. Not because I'm just superwoman and superhuman, but because I believe that God will give me language. I believe that God will give me humility. I believe that God will give me courage. And I believe that those who have an ear to hear will be able to hear and understand and act on the words that come out of my mouth. And I want to be held accountable too.

I think a lot of times we have these conversations and people are so busy trying to say things, but they don't prepare themselves for hearing feedback in return and having a humility that says, I want to express how this has impacted me perhaps negatively, but I also want to leave space to hear your experience as well. And I believe we have an opportunity with that. I think maybe I don't know if your world would allow this,

but even taking some time, a little break. Yeah, I'm good for 10 minutes in the car. But allowing yourself to reset in between environments, sometimes we're so busy going from thing to thing to thing that we don't take a minute to reset, recalibrate, to keep God in front of us as we move into the next item or task for our day. If your time, schedule, resources allow for something more extensive, a staycation, going to a friend's house and and I just need a break from my environment. I would certainly tap into that as well because it be an opportunity for you to remove yourself from the environment so that you can see more clearly the way that you show up in the environment and to just have a break from it all.

You know, your adult son is living with you. I'm not exactly sure what all goes into that, but not being afraid to say what you need and to create those boundaries so that you can have some sense of a safe space in a sanctuary within your home are just a few of the things that came to my mind and heart. But I think above all, you got to know that we got a real enemy that you are being impacted by that real enemy's plan but that you have power. Come on, I'm thinking about our song, All Authority, to push back the enemy to fight from the place of victory. And it's about time you use it. Part of my, am I going to use the word struggle? Yeah, I'm going to say tension. As someone who has navigated,

different seasons from a leadership perspective is encouragement and a responsibility to seek God about how he's showing up in challenging times and how we are to respond in moments of challenge. I've never felt more of a great responsibility than present day in my leadership journey, which don't, don't be full. Don't allow that to gloom and doom you because, I mean, I've probably 10 years into this. So, I mean, 10 years, is that a long time? I don't know. I just don't, I don't want to say that like I'm like 40, 50 years in.

But I will say, and if you're on social media, you hear people talk about it, it's unprecedented times that we've lived through two. Too many unprecedented times will take some precedent times felt and agreed. But I left this conversation with Dr. Sarah Elizabeth Lewis and Dr. Anita Phillips truly more hopeful than I have ever been. I want to frame this and give it some context. So I am a black woman. Okay, shocker. However, woman evolved doesn't exist solely for black women.

though because I am a black woman and I create these spaces, there are predominantly black women connected to this movement. Why is that important? Why am I playing the race card? Let me tell you why. Hold up. Here we go. Because data is revealing that black women have been greatly impacted over the last year in economic and political shifts that have caused stress and, worry and confusion and insecurity in ways that I'm going to say that we've perhaps never had to deal with. And the reason why I say that is not because we've never had to deal with oppression and shifts, but there was a really hopeful time in which it felt like there was room and space for our diverse perspectives and, you know, to bring representation in rooms where there wasn't always representation. And so it felt like we were beginning to experience a different way of being. And now there is legitimate fear about whether or not that is something that will continue to be

available to us. And I'm a faith leader. And as a faith leader, I am privy to so many different perspectives on what it looks like to do what is right. And I can tell you right now, everyone's definition of what is right is different. But I will also say that having conversation about the impact, the real impact of how things are impacting and affecting different groups is really important. It builds empathy. And I can't think of anything that we need more right now than really to understand where one another's coming from, even if we don't agree. I think it changes the way that we engage. I only say that to say that the beginning of this conversation, does talk about the experiences of black women, the black experience over history,

and it addresses that discouragement that is palpable for those of us who are close to this type of work. But the reason why I said I left more hopeful is Dr. Sarah Elizabeth Lewis is a historian who looks at the way that art in its different mediums have always been, has always been catalyst that can allow us to experience change and to tell the stories of our history and our culture in ways that neutralized defenses and welcomes real authentic conversations about the impact of what's taking place. She is an acclaimed writer, curator and scholar whose work has illuminated the power of creativity, resilience, and collective imagination. And what I love so much is that she does this by drawing from art history,

cultural studies, and the stories of pioneering individuals. She's able to explore how vision and perseverance shape our shared future. I just love this. I'm getting goosebumps just thinking about it because that word vision, that word vision is so, so important right now. And I feel like we have been dependent on other people to cast a vision for us. And when we don't like the vision they cast, we shut down. And I believe that this is an invitation to use your imagination, to activate your faith and allow your faith to cast vision. Your faith can cast a vision that the news can never cast. Your faith can cast a vision that commentary can never cast. And if you are not asking your faith to cast a vision in this season, you will be discouraged and feel that discouragement.

Sometimes we have to cast a vision from that place of discouragement. And it's just, I want to get out of bed today. You know, sometimes it's, I wish I could open up to someone and I want to talk to someone, whatever level you are on. I want your faith to cast a vision. Dr. St. Sarah, I felt she's so smart, so brilliant that I just feel like you need to say all of her name. But Dr. Sarah Lewis, through her research and storytelling, invites us to reconsider failure possibility in the unseen forces that propel human progress, which I felt was just so appropriate as so many women are experiencing a failure of their dream, the dream that they had in mind, a failure of the future that they had in mind.

I think many of us are looking at the failure of a world that we have. had envisioned and what is our response in those moments of failure. I will tell you that this conversation literally just skims the surface. We've already committed to having another conversation. And I just want to say that it's very interesting the way that this happened because Dr. Anita Phillips and I were supposed to record on the same day. And because of just a miscommunication on time, I logged in and Dr. Sarah Lewis and Dr. Anita Phillips were there at the same time. And because I knew I wanted to take some time to really address the discouragement. I mean, SNAP benefits have run out.

The government is shut down. Employees are furloughed. I felt like there is this necessary intermingled conversation of what it means to be experiencing devastation. I'm thinking about what's happening in Jamaica. To experience the failure of a system, to experience the failure of life the way we thought that it would be. Maybe some of our own personal fail. failures that were failures because we just didn't bring our best or our best wasn't good enough, feeling our way through that and also choosing to learn and rise again from it.

And so the conversation just skims the surface. When they were both on there, I felt like they could add a necessary, that they both had necessary perspectives that could really add to the conversation. I am going to do another conversation with Dr. Sarah Lewis probably at the top of the year because I feel like as we talk about vision for a new year and the residue of some of our past experiences, how do we live in such a way that we aren't separating them, but really seeing the value in the continued narrative that takes place as we enter into a new year. I have never felt more dumb than talking to two of the most brilliant women who I've ever held

space in conversation with, but I pray that this conversation makes you feel a little, a little, little, a little bit more brave, a lot more smart, completely more whole, and committed to pressing on and not just pressing on, creating going and living on in a way that has dignity and courage and resiliency because it's what's available to us. So yeah, let's get into this week's conversation. You know, we're coming towards the end of the year, and for many, Black women in particular, has been a difficult year where they have found themselves displaced, wondering whether or not they have the ability to create value in the way that they once did if they can dream the way they once did. And I am sensing and having conversations with women at events. We have an event called

impact circle where we gather entrepreneurs and leaders and change makers from different cities in an intimate setting and just create a space where they can connect with one another. So they feel less alone and isolated. And one of the things that I am picking up is that it just feels dangerous to dream. That it feels like the formulas that we have bought into that would bring us change and success and allow us to have, you know, optimal impact is no longer available to us. And so, Dr. Lewis, if it's okay, I would like to talk to you a little bit about the gift of failure when the effort should lead itself to success, but the culture and the ecosystem and which our effort

must exist is making us believe that failure may be closer of an option than success. Mm-hmm. Okay. Well, first, Pastor Sarah, thank you so much for having me. It is really a thrill and a gift, especially to be able to speak about a book that was so close to just my heart, but really fed my spirit and allowed me as a black woman, as a woman, to think about what we don't often have the luxury to engage in, the productive quality of so-called failure, right? I think we as black women are often so, under pressure to ensure that we seem like and are successful, that we don't get to actually enjoy the eternal cycle of the creative process, which is always requires, you know, that you build on what it is that you break down, that you're able to innovate based on what doesn't work. So I gave myself that freedom to engage with that topic in the book, in The Rise, which I wrote now 10 years ago, and I'm stunned that here it is still bringing me to you and to, you know, places. all around the world. It's been translated into seven languages. It's done all kinds of work in different

domains. And I think for me, the question is still why. You met me through my interview with Brunei Brown through that. For me, the question is still why. You know, we are here, you're mentioning the urgency of the moment, and it's one that's forcing us to turn heat into light, right? But as we engage with that moment and that transformation, we're also called to do what generations before us have done. And that is to think of what's necessary for the moment and what's necessary for the era, you know, we're crafted in, right? I'm here on Harvard's campus today, and I walk by spaces so often that are storied, right, that have leaders who have guided our path, whether it's W.B. Du Bois, and you think of what they have lived through in their lifetime.

You think of W.V. Du Bois living through the racial nadir of American life, the Woodrow Wilson regime, the instantiation of federal segregation, right? And there he is, wanting to ensure that all can live out their full potential, uplifting black Americans. And he's living through that period, and then he'll live through the Harlem Renaissance as well, right? So how do we live in generation time? We have to acknowledge that failure is a part of that, right? There are moments of in which it will seem as if the very fabric of society has broken down. But when you keep that dual perspective on what's necessary for the moment, what's necessary for the larger arc of time, then I think you can remain encouraged. So that as a historian is where I sit and where I stand in terms of perspective, right? The book is born as an offering, right, as a guide system to unfurl the stories of individuals from artists and entrepreneurship,

and athletes of all races and all backgrounds to determine how they have performed this eternal dance, right, and building based upon ruin. And it's not a book that I expected actually to be out in the world the way that it is. But it speaks to, I think, how urgently we all need the space and the models and the guides to see how others have done this. You know, you're creating the space, right, through impact gatherings.

You're creating the space through these conversations. you're creating the space to these conversations. And so I want to salute that urgent work. You know, I'm one of the things that's probably going to stick with me for the next week and a half as I digest this conversation is turning heat into light. If you hear that on Sunday, I will attribute it to you just like one time after that. I'm just going to take it from myself. I love that.

No, heat into light. I think that is the call. That's the mandate. My friend, Dr. Anita Phillips, has built this incredible movement about moving into the light. And I can imagine just hearing those words, Dr. Anita, what comes up for you, this opportunity for us to experience this heat and resist the temptation to allow it to burn us, but instead transform our ignites, igniters? Like I think inside of each of us, there is something that is meant to be ignited, to come alive, and to respond. to the urgency of this moment and to transform that into light,

but I'm wondering what comes up for you. Yeah, that struck me too. You might hear both of us preaching that soon because it is the opposite. It's about the direction, not to allow the heat and the pressure to drive me into the dark, to want to go underground,

to want to shut down, to want to unplug and extract myself from the presence of that intense heat, which direction am I going to allow to push me into, what lessons will it help me learn, and what it will let me believe about how I can be transformed. And I love that.

Link to what you mentioned, Doctor, about the arc of history, because that's very much how I look at my life and how I look at helping clients. What is the bigger picture of your life over the pressure that you're in right now? That's right. Because if I can keep my eye on the bigger picture, it helps me to hold on to where I'm going next. Oh, you both are getting me so full already.

I'm like, how am I about to cry? I haven't even been five. minutes in this conversation. I love this. That is it. How are you going to, you know, there's a line that's coming to mind that's on my heart about this that Winton Marsalis said to me, he was a dear friend and has been in my life for now two decades. And I mean, the model he sets for the rigor, right, and the dedication to craft, to also uphold a tradition to, in the face of the kind of innovations maybe that others want, but there's this line he said, a musician said to him when he was very young handling the heat of that moment and the musician said, just tell me, how are you going to

handle that pressure? How are you going to handle the pressure? Right. I think today, and I'd love to hear too, Dr. Nita, you reflect on this, but we have, as I know as a professor, outs to handling that pressure. But that pressure, when you actually engage with it, there are, and this is what I deal with in the rise, there are invaluable resources that you develop, right? That grit, that resilience, that discernment to hear how you're being guided by God, that then lets you become that beacon, right? That then lets you transform the raw material of who it is that you are into, being a blessing for others, right? It's handling that pressure. And if you don't see it, as you say, like, over the arc of a life, if you don't look at how someone's navigated that, you know,

that you might miss how, in fact, what seems to be hardship, what seems to be and is, you know, real societal suffering can become a blessing, right, over time, you know. You're asking me, gotcha. I'm listening to you. Oh, I just want, well, I'll pause on it. I just wonder, I, but the transformation of heat into light, like, that is the formula. That's, I think, what we're all here to do, you know. For sure. I mean. And to be honest about how hot it is in the process, because I think as black women, we can drop into that space of, it's not that hot, I'm good, I'm okay, and not allow ourselves to be in touch with how much it is painful for us and not allow other people to see. how much it is indeed painful for us. And that for me to acknowledge the pain that it's bringing is not for me to release hope of the future.

We can do both and. I can be in pain and have hope. It can be suffering and also believe that there's a next chapter, that God can work good out of this, that I have the skill set to survive this and to grow from it. That both and is the challenge

that I think we have as humans, but I think that black women have particularly because of the performance demands that we've experienced and that we may fail on a day in that process or two days or three days in holding both and that it's okay to do that as well, which is what I think you've been letting us know. That is okay. Writing the rise I do realize was hard in terms of just the balance and stories of black women I wanted to include because it's actually, it's very difficult to find on the record stories about how it is that a black woman has handled that pressure, right?

in the face of that failure. It's much easier to find all these commencement addresses of other backgrounds, other identities of speakers disclosing their so-called failure. The only woman I can think of who did disclose this aspect of her life in a really fulsome way of someone who has had such an outside level of success that she's almost, you know, impervious to critique, rightfully so, and that's Oprah, right? She spoke at Harvard here about the benefits. of failure, the way in which it offered her information and a redirection. J.K. Rowling offered a commencement address on the same topic, but it was far easier to find stories of men transforming their heat into light, men processing the irreplaceable gifts of failure

for iconic achievements of all kinds. So having the space in this generation is key. If you don't, success alone doesn't beget success. We know this, right? So if we're not able to tactically think about the resources that we're creating as we encounter all the difficulties in this life and don't just do it out of fellowship and sisterhood, but do it actually as a practical roadmap, right, for success of all kinds, then we're depriving the next generation and our own of what we need. You know, that makes me think.

I have a 16-year-old daughter and she is in this IB program at school and she has to write about her experiences. And she talks about how we always say that she's resilient. Ever since she was a little girl, she'd, like, fall on the floor and bounce back up, or she'd experience maybe getting in trouble. And she would just be fine. Like, she'd be forgiving us for doing what we had to do in order to correct her. And she goes on to say in her essay, though, that how resiliency has now become almost these

walls that she feels trapped in where she feels like she's created for hard things, but she doesn't always want to have to do hard things. And when you say that about there being few stories where women are given space to admit their failures, I'm wondering how do we begin to have a healthy sense of division from our output, our performance, our productivity, and our identity? It seems to me that there would have to be some level of separation

between that which I am attempting and who I am. And if we are not allowed that benefit, then we are quiet about our failures because we see our failures as a reflection of our identity. You've just both asked the question and offer the answer, you know. I spent five years researching really that central question. How is it that people disaggregate a difficult experience you could classify as failure and not be crushed by it.

And what's the difference between those who are crushed and those who are not? And really the difference is precisely that. If people are able to distinguish between the experience as offering information and the experience as defining their identity, you know, if they're able to do that, they're able to win. They're able to take it, take it and move forward. I feel my heart is just being pierced right now. Because, I mean, I think the stats in earlier this year were 300,000 women had lost their jobs, black women in particular.

And I am thinking about how it's not just a job loss for some that it's a loss of identity. And I am wondering if part of the process in turning heat into light is allowing the job loss to not necessarily be identity loss. that for women who were high achieving and perhaps really on a path of upward mobility in their fields and now having to start from the ground up to see this as an invitation to create an invitation to build, but not necessarily an indicator of destruction. And my heart just burns because I feel like part of what I am experiencing in my DMs and our emails on our app are women who have lost themselves because they lost their job. who have lost their hope because they no longer see a path towards success and promotion. And I want more than anything for them to experience that degree of separation. Yeah. The term indicator here I think is key.

It's both an indicator of where we are as a society. These statistics are sobering and are clear indicators, right, of who's being valued. But the circumstance can also, as you say, been an indicator for transfer. formation, of potential redirection. And that's what we have to hold on to. Yeah. You know, when your work is a historian, so we've got millennials and millennials are always talking about living in unprecedented times. Like we've lived through pandemics and, you know, so many different other challenges. And yet you have studied history and know that many people have experienced different challenges with wars and disease and outbreak. What is it about us navigating us?

unprecedented times that you think we should know and hang on to while we also build our lives. Oh, this is a broad, fantastic question. I think what distinguishes this current moment from other crises is that we are in the midst of what I call a crisis of regard. Crisis of regard. We are struggling to understand how we are meant to see each other and ourselves. You know, we have the means for the first time through technology and other devices to see each other fully anew. But we seem to somehow still be unable, right, to get out of our silos, our identities to fully understand the other as ourselves. So that crisis is distinct. And I think it offers us a real opportunity to engage with a lot of the different, you know, creative vehicles we have to

refashion our world. So that's one distinction as a historian as I see it. I love that so much. And one of the things that I think has made this generation so maybe more liberated than previous is that they have an invitation to create art out of their lives, out of their day-to-day existence. Like everyone's to be a content creator, and sometimes people speak about that negatively, but I think it is an opportunity to imagine. And when I think about your work at the intersection of art and justice and this idea that we're living in a space

where it is more okay to be a creator perhaps than it has ever been, I am wondering what opportunities do you think exist for us to take these different avenues of creativity and to begin to bend the arc of justice into a direction that has equity available for all. Yeah. What's really striking about this generation

is that we finally recognize exactly that. If this is the extension of the civil rights era, what's new is that we have seen visual technologies, creators, not only entertainers, right, and actors who were often on the front lines in prior decades, as central for the movement broadly defined, right? You know, at Harvard, I teach a course, vision and justice. And as a lecture course, when I last taught it, it had the second highest demand at the university and the core curriculum. What that says is, that there's students who, and the course is looking at this question, who want to understand what the function of art and culture is for determining who counts and who belongs in society.

And it's not a course that only looks at the current day. It goes back to 1790, you know, all the way through to the current day. It's looking at these often hidden but historic objects, mediums, tactics, whether it's the photograph, whether it's a work of sculpture, whether it's a monument, that have, in fact, transformed the cultural language, landscape and the definition of citizenship itself. So they're learning this. They know in this country, we know that citizenship was defined 1790 as being white male, being able to hold property, and the current definition is far broader, still contested. But they know in this course when they come out that the laws that transform that definition have not been alone enough to affect change.

It was always also the work of culture, right, that transformed our understanding of who belonged. It's why Frederick Douglass focused on the power of the photograph and what it ignited in individuals who saw images for the first time of African Americans self-possessed and dignified and free when the Constitution turned us three-fifths human beings. He understood this. He also understood that we'd still be reckoning with it over a century later. So the students are picking up on the headwaters of this idea and they're leaving seeing their platform. not only as means of self-expression, but as ways to be civic leaders in our society. I love that. I'm just so obsessed with that because I feel like it's,

for so long there's been just this separation, right? Like if you were an artist or a creative, then you were like in this little corner of just kind of like, you know, artsy-fartsy and maybe it wasn't creating impact, but you have seen this hidden, this hidden thread of how art really has an opportunity to invite change in a way that translates cultures that looks beyond just words and language and speeches, but puts it right there in front of you and evokes an emotion that evokes a response and a responsibility to be a

part of the change. And that makes me so excited for artists and creatives who are showing up in today's era. I am wondering, as you look at all of the different mediums and forms of art that exists right now and also all of the opportunities for maybe empathy is the word, maybe not, but a translation between cultures. Our algorithms have divided us more than ever. And I feel like there's a barrier that exists between different cultures, different generations. And I'm wondering, where does art have an opportunity to tell a story right now? So, this question I love.

Yes, first, I should say artists give us language for what the democratic imagination requires, right? Cheryl and Eiffel and I just put together this convening Vision and Justice Now, where we brought together a whole set of creators, artists, makers alongside lawmakers, right, and leaders from Yarra Shihidi, Ava DiVernay, Amy Sherald, Mark Bradford, Brian Stevenson, Cheryl and Eiffel herself, Deborah Archer, head of the ACLU, to address this question. What does culture offer that other avenues of living don't provide? They offer us language. They offer us the invitation, I think it's a term you use that I love, the invitation to imagine the world anew, right? But they also do, I think, the very thing that we

don't really deal with, and that is put language to the unspeakable. You know, this is a, country, this is a democracy that is predicated on the unspeakable. You have a bedrock foundation of the nation that is defined by a sentence that does not make sense, you know, built to instantiate a country with an ideal of freedom and equity built on chattel slavery. Doesn't make sense, right? Together. But what the arts allow you to do is to move. past the limits of language, right, to reimagine a new. So what creators can offer, and I don't think you're asking a question about one medium versus another, right? But for me, what's exciting is that the whole landscape is activated now.

But more than that, and I want to ensure that we kind of land this, because as we had this conversation with your listeners, even if you're not creative, even if you yourself are not going to make art, work of culture, storytell, and different ways. You're part of this. Why? Because we, vision, the power of culture, what it is that you consume, is a civic skill. It is how you participate. You are, you're not just reading the worlds, I think today. We're not just engaging through headlines, through discourse. We're looking at what's happening around us and constructing narratives out of it. Why do we have such a massive debate about Confederate monuments, for example? We didn't all of a sudden wake up and start to love steel more or bronze more, right?

We're doing this because we started to understand that the visual signals that we affirm or that we accept in society determine the norms and laws of the land. So we have to begin to ask ourselves what we're seeing and what we're choosing not to see, right, and how that determines the structure of society as we go forward. So we're all invited into this dialogue about the power of vision, really, for justice, whether we're creators or not. I love that you made that, you laid that foundation for those who may not consider themselves as creatives because we are consuming and taking it in and allowing it to be a part of the narratives. that we create in our minds.

I am thinking to myself, even as you were speaking, I think that there's this notion, and maybe it's just within what I'm exposed to, maybe it's not universal, that like if I can't do something hopeful or something that's positive because I am overwhelmed by so many of things that are breaking my heart,

and I'm overwhelmed by so many of the things that are causing discouragement, then I can't create anything at all. And I think leaning into, like Dr. Anita said earlier leaning into the reality of that heat that it burns. But even the heartbreak itself deserves to be expressed, that the pain itself deserves to have an expression of creativity that can allow us to perhaps experience unity. I think even for me as I'm speaking, you know, I sometimes feel challenged. Like if I don't have this like happy go lucky message because

life is hard and the world is hard, that maybe I'm doing a disservice, but I'm, made a decision a couple weeks ago that I'm going to speak to where we are. And it was probably one of the most powerful messages that I have shared as of late because I think people are wondering, is it okay to not be okay and to give language and expression to that? And I feel like that is the beginning of okay, is this ability to see that I'm not the only one who's experiencing this tension and that I want to. to be hopeful, but I'm also living in this world that it feels like my hope is being vacuumed anytime that he emerges. And what does it look like to have someone who gives me that language,

who gives me that expression, who creates this safe space for this heartbreak to exist? Dr. Nita, I'm thinking about you and how, you know, even especially right now in your career that you're leading and really wrapping your arms around creatives right now, what is it that you think is happening in their hearts and in their in their souls that will be an opportunity for us who are consuming to really feel seen and heard. I think it's about encouraging them to stay present because the hope that their art will transcend a space, an era, a moment, they have very specific dreams when they came to L.A. about what it would look like for their art to succeed, but that it is still worth just creating, creating, creating, and sharing with one another,

the power of what that releases in other people in this moment and maintaining the hope that things will shift and they'll see their dreams come true. But L.A. is suffering an incredible downturn right now. Studios are closing. They seem to be less opportunity. And so keeping them encouraged that the gift that they came to hone and share is still worth that, even though it seems that the outlets that are coming. consuming it or changing, that they should continue to create for the sake of creating,

that that in itself is healing them and healing us. Dr. Lose, it looked like you went into thought about that. I'm wondering what came to your mind. Yeah. So last night we were, at Harvard, we had the DeBoise Medal ceremony that honored among others, Spike Lee and Amy Sherald and Misty Copeland. And I'm really fortunate to have Misty and Amy in my life as friends. And it was just, as you were reflecting on the call to creators to create regardless, I thought of how productive it is, maybe to think in this moment about not just your work as impactful for necessary, not as of your work as impactful for your own generation alone. But what happens when you begin to even expand that?

to potentially the next generation. Who inspired Misty? And what did they think necessarily about their own potential life in ballet, right? And she's spoken about her heroes, which painters inspired Amy Sherald, who might not have necessarily had the kind of success they wanted,

but then went on to feed her, to seed her. I think when you look, as a historian, And I do this and I take comfort in this. When you look at the different generations that are interlaced through that web of inspiration, we can take greater comfort and stop looking at the end product and impact in one generation alone as an indicator of the worthiness of the effort. It's a great chain we're in. It's a great interlaced chain.

And I think the creative process of all kinds shows the web that we're weaving, you know, over the centuries. And if we keep that perspective, we stay part of that grander community, I think then we can remain even more in courage. So that's what I wasn't thought about. She said that. I love that. It's such an offering. We're presenting an offering to the world. And it's not on us to determine where it lands or the outcome.

It's just our offer. and to find fulfillment in the offering, fulfillment in the doing, and the freedom that exists in that. That's what I hear you saying. There's a freedom in that. Yes, you know, this is why I'm sitting here with you today. My grandfather wanted to be and was a painter,

but he did so, you know, he was expelled from high school for asking where Black Americans were in the history books. And 11th grade asked a question, told black Americans, you know, 1926 New York City, did nothing to merit inclusion. And he just didn't accept it. And so he was expelled for being so-called impertinent about this. And he went on to become an artist and, you know, performed, played bass, backup, Count Basic, Duke Ellington. I just learned Billy Holiday, too. But I didn't know when I was graduating from college. I went to

Harvard undergrad, why my grandfather didn't have a high school diploma. I had no idea. But he taught me how to paint. He taught me how to dream through clay and through pastels. And it was only when he died that I learned this story. So there I was in college, a sophomore, asking these questions of my professors. Well, don't the arts mean more than just what's formally here that we're describing, can't they cohere a life? Haven't the arts actually changed? You know, how we define society? And those answers weren't ones that I thought were enough. So I began this path that's brought me back to Harvard to teach the very topics. I wasn't taught to honor effectively my grandfather's path. And my name, Sarah Elizabeth Lewis, is meant to honor my grandfather, Shadrach, Emmanuel Lee,

with those initials. So the fact that I can be here with you, Pastor, Sarah, Dr. Anita, two generations later, right? Thinking through the very topics that my grandfather was expelled for asking about, right, is a testament to how the world changes a testament to what's possible. And I think a testament to how the generations are linked. I wish I could formulate this question or this thought properly. But I do feel like part of what I'm going to take away from this conversation, And I think you have the benefit of it because as a historian, you see the world within context and not as such a tunnel vision of whatever that dash is in between the year you were born in the year that you depart.

But to see it as all interwoven. And I think even in scripture, like we hear God saying, you know, I'm the father of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That God himself sees not just his expression as one generation in one life. It's that and also a generational perspective. And I feel challenged in this conversation, even as I'm leading and guiding, to remind people to zoom out of the picture and to remind ourselves that this is but a vapor. This is just a moment. And we get to fill it with all that has been placed inside of us, whatever it looks like, but also to realize that we're carrying one from someone who came before us. and also we're leaving something in the earth for those who will come behind us.

And I am not sure that that is something that is as relevant in the minds of people. Maybe it's just me. Maybe I'm just, you know, one of the few. But to see beyond the moment, I feel like that's such a gift, especially when everything is like urgent, breaking news, everything is making you feel like the end is near. But we're still yet now living in a continuation. Yes, yes. you have an extraordinary calling on your life, Pastor Sarah.

You know, you really. And the way that you're walking in your gift, I find extraordinary. And I love that you will take on, right, this call to ensure that we understand that we are part of this broader continuum. Because it is, I think, one of the ways that you can start to turn that heat into light. It's like, when you recognize that you're fashioned for that, that moment, yes, but perhaps for a grander design than even you understand, then you can walk in your gifts through that heat, right, knowing that you're going to illuminate the path for someone else

or hopeful that you might, right? In the same way that my grandfather eliminated it for me, and I think at the end of his life knew that he had, even if he hadn't met the moment that he wanted to, just for himself, right? So here we have a new way of going forward and a new way, hopefully to ensure that we all have the guides we need to create that transformation in our lives. So can I ask you? Oh, I'm sorry, Dr. Nita, please go ahead.

And then I'm going to ask you both the same question. Yeah, it just made me think about what I feel like is a turn that's happening in the generational trauma conversation that I've definitely been trying to encourage is that we've given so much energy in the last decade, especially to how do I break generational cycles that are negative? how do I heal generational trauma? But I'm encouraging people to also ask their mothers, their grandmothers, their grandfathers, questions about who they were, what dreams they had, that we're not getting those stories only at the funeral when someone is talking about it because there are also generational blessings for us to run with. And when we find out about these threads that were kind of sticking to us,

but we weren't aware of, we can escalate the effort to see our generational blessings brought forward. and that that's a view of our family history that we haven't always taken the time to dig into. So yes, to break in generational curses and cycles, but also yes, to picking up, embodying and running with the blessings that our family has been working on advancing. That's a big part of it too. That's right. I am often reminding myself whenever I'm seeing, you know, things that are happening in the world. and, you know, call me unsurious, but I'm like, how bad can it get? And I know that it can get pretty bad.

But it's also like when I think about where we started from, when I think about going to the slave dungeons in Ghana to where we are now, I'm like, if they were able to survive that, there's got to be something in us that says, okay, this is our time to show up for whatever our fight is going to be, to offer to this moment, whatever it is that we can offer. but I just have to believe that even as life as we know it may be taking going a different form, that we also have the opportunity to rise to the occasion to meet the moment. And I feel like that's just what I want more than anything is to see a generation resist,

defeat, and to meet the moment and being present in the moment and believing that there is something that we can offer to this moment, even if it's just connection, community, expression. Like everyone's not going to be on the front lines. I get that. But that doesn't mean that we can't be on the front lines in our homes, and our families, and our communities.

And that in itself, to have that sense of agency, it really does feel like to me an underground railroad moment. And like, what role do you want to play in this time in history that says, I can stand by who I was in the moment. And I just, I fear that we're going to be frozen into consuming consuming, consuming, and feeling defeated and discouraged when we have an opportunity to say,

you know what, it's going to keep, obviously this is going to be a snowball and things are going to keep collecting and there's going to be a new story and a new headline. What can I do for my neighbor? What can I do for my friend to be more present and more available to serve the greatest need that is within my reach to meet? And I feel like that's the opportunity that we have, and that's what we have to keep in front of people in the midst of everything. Yes, yes. And how we do this is the question, you know, I have to say, I'm kind of in this moment, though, of a feeling as if the outcome is assured

because of the severity of the circumstance, you know. There are times when it is so dire that you can't help but know what truly is in front of you. And that's the moment when you get serious. You get real. Because we do consume today in a way that can make it hard to pause and say, wait, what is it that I really know about this moment in time? So the intensity of the moment is forcing that on some people. And I think that part of the bewilderment for some is that they haven't really been forced to do that before.

But these conditions didn't just arise out of nowhere. There's just an emergency state reveals the conditions that have been there all the while, right? They're just dramatized and they're made vivid and they're graphic and you have photographs of them. But this is, you know, so it's giving us an opportunity to show who we actually are and why we've been birthed in this era and this generation. and what our gifts are meant to be, how we can blossom them more. I think that because of that, I mean, when it's time to go to war, we will get in shape, right? There's a clarity. Right, right, right.

And I think in this generation, though, people aren't always met with a call. Yes. Like, you know, how can you serve? That's not really the – so there is a call that's being offered to us in this generation, you know. how will you share your gifts? And why wait? So please share them now. And this is, I think, what makes me actually think of, you know, a 30 years from now as a period in which I hope I'll be able to look back and smile with some pride about how we came together and how we bloomed in this moment, you know? I want to be able to say at minimum I did my part. You know what I mean? I did what I could

with what was given to me. And when I knew better, I did better. And I offered that. I have to ask you all before we go. We talked about the links between generations and how we are not just living in this isolated moment, but we are carrying with us, the legacy and inheritance of those who came before us.

I am wondering, what is it that you are presently doing? who is it that you are presently being that will be a part of the future link for the generations that are coming after you? You know, 20 years, 30 years down the road when there's a student at Harvard, when there is someone who is navigating that path of faith and emotional wellness

and in Los Angeles, what is it that you would have offered that helps their journey? For the both of us, I understand, but do you want me to begin? Yes. Please. My hope, my hope is that I've offered an architecture and language and a model for understanding that the arts, that culture, is not a respite from life or a kind of luxury, but instead has been the foundational or research. on which we've determined who counts and who belongs in this country and around the world.

I've done this through looking at the work of Frederick Douglass, looking at the work of W.B. Du Bois. I've done this through being a curator, focusing on the work at MoMA and the Tate Modern where I was. I've done this by being in the classroom with students, just trying my best to nourish their gifts and seeing them already blossom in the world. That is my hope that we see the creative gift that we've been given, I think, by God, as one that is foundational for how we redefine who we can be in society. That's it. Beautiful. I'm having conversations with my daughter about what it means to take good care of herself, even when she doesn't feel powerful enough to

change some of the circumstances around her, that it's worth caring for yourself. So you remain well, spiritually, emotionally, mentally, physically, relationally, so that you can move forward because circumstances will change. And having those same conversations with women in our church, with my clients, with anyone who will listen, I think it's really important right now for us to hold on to what we are worth

and that our wellness is worth being maintained. That very personal moment, because these heat moments can cause us to take less care of ourselves, it will not always be like this. stay well and stay ready and keep pouring out your gifts because things will shift. It's worth staying well. I feel like there's such a beauty in that wellness that allows us to tap into the rich heritage that is available to us and our opportunity to prepare the next generation for by our offering and what their heritage will be from us. I want to thank you all for this divine appointment.

There is no denying that this is certainly a God thing. And I believe that this conversation is going to add my prayer as peace to the hearts of those who feel uncertain and untethered right now, that they would be grounded afresh and a reminder that these are not necessarily unprecedented times that the world has seen calamitored. calamity and heartbreak in trouble before and yet has found a way to respond and to answer the call of the moment. And I am hopeful that as we reflect on 2025 and move into 2026, that this conversation in some way has helped position those women. And so I want to thank you all for your survival and your wellness and your leaning in that has allowed us to eat from the fruit of your vineyards. I am, I am rich and so much better. You know, I am a girl who has been through a lot

and some of you know my story, some of you don't. I dropped out of college and have become just such a fan of women who, I'm back in school now, but such a fan of women who have really done so much work and research and really given language to things that some of us sense, but just didn't have maybe the research and the history and the knowledge to back up that sensing. And so I glean, I feast at the feet of women who have language, and you two are certainly two of those beacons for me. And so I just want to thank you for allowing me the opportunity

to experience your light and to experience your mentorship through this moment because that's what it is for me. What a gift this is. Can I just add? I think there's a way which, you know, knowledge is the foundation of what you know, foundation of what happens in academia, but knowing, knowing, knowing is always greater than knowledge.

So the power of the spirit, the power of intuition, of instinct of the word, this is for me one of the greatest gifts of this conversation to be able to integrate the two. You are always welcome at my classroom in my arena here at Harvard. I'm so honored that you brought me into your space here. I also want to just add into this conversation as we as we close, just the importance of surrender to your gift, to your truth, how you're being guided, to not let your knowledge about the world, just defeat your knowing about what to do and how to move and go forward. So I know Pastor Sarah on your journey in being back and school, you're in in an extraordinarily powerful position to integrate both,

to model for people, how both are necessary. As you do to Dr. Anita and in your fellowship together, I know you can support yourself in that, and I can see that in this conversation. So thank you for this. Thank you. I hope that, like myself, you are leaving this episode feeling a bit more encouraged.

My heart is full. I pray that this conversation helped you hold. both things at once that honest pain and real hope can live in the same place. I'm praying that you will separate your identity from your output, right? And that you would protect your wellness. Keep offering your gift like a seed, not just for you to experience the harvest of, but for the generation to come. Do me favor and share this episode with the sister who is standing in the heat,

trying to figure out how in the world do I transform this into light. and leave a review so the other women can find this space. And if you want more, you can watch and rewatch this on Women Evolve TV and keep the conversation going with us there. Part 2 is coming next. Dr. Anita and I are going to dive a little bit deeper into turning pressure into light. We're going to share our business. Dr. Anita and I do this.

It's like, at this point, it's a thing at the end of the year. We just kind of like, girl, how you doing? Hopefully, it is a starting point for you to have conversation with those you hold near and dear. Lord, we feel the heat. We feel the world changing. We feel the ground shifting underneath our feet. And we're trying to stay steady. We're trying to stay hopeful.

We're trying to stay open. And sometimes it's hard. But in community and through connection, we stay wide. We stay open and we stay ready. Thank you, God, for not allowing us to do this on our own for sending podcasts and sisterhood and friendships and family. and most importantly your word to see us through from season to season. Now may the same grace, the same strength, the same courage that carried those who came

before us through be our inheritance now and forevermore. In Jesus' name, amen. Evolve.