Woman Evolve with Sarah Jakes Roberts - What Is for You Will Never Miss You with Danielle Brooks

Episode Date: June 17, 2026

Host Sarah Jakes Roberts is in her bag, pulling out the kinds of questions that get you talking like you’ve known her forever. And that's exactly how we land smack dab in the middle of the iconic Danielle Brooks' business! These two waste no time getting into what it means to remain teachable while succeeding, embrace failure without letting it define you, and trust God with the outcome. By the time it's over, this episode feels like a mirror for so many women, reflecting back the growth we don't always clock in real time. Sit with this one, sis! Rula patients typically pay $15 per session when using insurance. Connect with quality therapists and mental health experts who specialize in you at https://www.rula.com/evolve #rulapod Sign up for your one-dollar-per-month trial today at https://shopify.com/evolve Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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So, whether you're snacking, sharing, or just treating yourself, nothing else is Reese's. I've really had an issue with making myself small. and not seeing like there's so much value in who I am. But I think along the way God was like, no, you got something. No, I got you. You are special.

You are talented. You are, you know, who I made you to be. What's up, family? This is Sarah Jax Roberts and you are listening to the Woman Evolve podcast. And as you can see, I am a neck brace-free shorty. But listen, it's probably only for a limited time only. I, if you listen to last week's episode or you heard my message from the Potter's House Dallas called Help is on the way, then you know that I am going to have to undergo a surgery on my spine while the bones healed. Well, I guess I could give you a quick little update. The bones healed. So had a trampoline accident, broke bones in my neck, but also had herniated disc. And the herniated disc were compressing against my spinal cord. While the bones have healed beautifully, miraculously. even as if they have never been broken at all.

But the disc have actually gotten worse. And so I need to have surgery on my spine. If you're wondering how I'm feeling about it, not great. I'd already, as you know, have been down for a few weeks. But knowing that I'm going to be down bad, well, I don't know if I'm going to be down bad. I could be down bad. I could be down medium. I could be down low, like not even that bad.

But anyways, I'm going to be down for a little bit longer. I don't love that. The procedure sounds, it's evidently very common, but it is major. And so I'm not looking forward to it, which was basically what my message was about on Sunday, about the moments where we have gratitude for who God is and what God has done in our lives, but also some grief, some pain, some sadness about some of the things we're being forced to walk through that we would rather not walk through, and yet believing in God's faithfulness

in the midst of it all, God is still good. I don't question that. I'm experiencing his goodness, even as I'll walk through this, and life is hard. And creating capacity for us to hold those two truths, I think is going to be so necessary

to our journey as believers is to recognize that we didn't sign up for a cakewalk. Life is not a cakewalk. Literally, the Bible says, that the rain falls on the just and the unjust. That's those who were trying to do everything the right way and those who are out here not trying to live right at all. Everyone's going to experience trials and tribulations.

And so I have embraced that. This is a part of my journey and my story. I don't have to like it in order to live through it, walk through it, and to experience God's goodness through it. And I trust God through it all. I know that God's going to take care of me and all things concerning me. So I'm going to have to be back in a next. brace. The recovery could be six to 12 weeks with physical therapy. I don't know what to expect,

but I'm going to do all of the things, check all of the boxes so that I can be well. By time you're listening to this, honestly, or seeing it, I've probably already had the surgery because they gave me that the one that said at the rate of progression I needed to get seen as soon as possible, but yet still not emergent. And so I have likely already had the surgery not recovering. So pray for me and not just for me, but for anybody who's walking through something they would rather not go through and trying to sense and find God in the midst of it all. May the Holy Spirit reveal to them and me, even in this moment, the ways that we can be reminded of all of the things that God has said and promised us and comforted us in previous seasons of our lives. So, all right, it don't get no deeper

than mine in my business than being in my spine and my feelings. rude. How dare you? But now that you've minded mine, let me mind yours. If you want me to mind your business, you want to hear my take on things that are happening in your world. I want to encourage you to call me at 214-790-871. Again, that's 214-790-871, and be like our girl who's about to let me mind her business and drop me a message about what's happening in your world. Listen, I may not always have the best advice for you, but sometimes it's helpful to hear another perspective. And one thing about me is if I don't have anything to say, I will not say it. So, yeah, let's mind our friend's business this week.

Hi, Sarah J. Swarvers. My name is Raquel Richardson. And I just want to say, I thank God for the ministry of your dad and of you and your family. God bless you. My question is that how do you deal with people that you have to see daily on a work-related basis? and, you know, you have to continue working with them knowing that they plot against you. They don't like you. You know, God showed you, and it was confirmation, 11 times, and you see it,

but you still have to work with them for a season until God says to move on. How do you deal with people who have to work with that? You know are not good, but you have to work with them in an environment that's going to be, you know, helpful for other people, patience. God bless.

Love you guys. In Jesus, me, bye. You know, one of the things that I can appreciate about this call is that you really want to show up in a way that reflects not your betrayal, but your growth and your faith and your desire to reflect, honestly, the characteristics of Christ in the midst of it all. So if I can start you in the Bible, I'm going to take you to Matthew 5. When you look at Matthew 5, Jesus has this long, it's called the Beatitudes, but it's this long sermon about the ways that we should be showing up in the world. This is where we hear a lot, bless our poor and spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. So this long list of like who's going to make it in the kingdom of heaven, who's not what it takes to be someone who makes it into the kingdom of heaven.

And let me tell you, this is such a critical moment in Jesus ministry because it begins to reveal to us that the kingdom that he is establishing is different than the kingdoms of the world. Where the kingdoms of the world, especially at that time where the primary kingdom of that world was the Roman Empire. And the Roman Empire was about brute force. It was about authority and power by any means necessary in control. Jesus begins to introduce this concept of a kingdom that is meek and it's built on righteousness and it requires us to become someone. It's not about us taking control. It's about us becoming someone who's able to master ourselves and to have control.

And that's what I hear you saying is that you have an opportunity to let your frustration, your anger, your bitterness to control how you show up in this relationship. relationship dynamic, but you don't want that. You want to choose something differently. And Jesus tells us in Matthew 5 specifically as it relates to retaliation, you have heard that it was said an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, but I tell you not to resist an evil person, but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. Now, first of all, I know you listen into that and maybe you're thinking to yourself. Now, why would I not resist evil? But I love looking up the words in the Greek.

If we look up this word, resist in the Greek. It means to stand against. Now, let's think for a moment. Who you have to be in order to stand against someone who was done you wrong, to stand against an evil person, to look them eye to eye and stand against them. In many ways, it's like you're going to have to become equal with them to stand against them. I hope I'm saying this right. When Jesus says in Matthew 5 and 39, he says, I tell you not to resist an evil person.

Do not resist them. Do not make it your mission to stand eye to eye with someone who is intentional on lying on you, betraying you, saying evil things to you. Do not make it your mission to create a battle or a war with them. Instead, live in such a way that they feel like you have forgotten it. That's turning the other cheek when it says, but whomever slaps you on your right cheek,

turn the other to him also. That means to show up in that relationship dynamic as if it never happened to you at all. It goes on to say, if anyone wants to see you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak also, and whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him to give to him who ask you from him who wants to borrow you. So that whole part literally is about retaliation in the moments where we have felt betrayed. So what does that mean to us as believers? Like if I am not going to go toe to toe with the person who has harmed me, who has said evil things about me, and instead I'm going to live people.

peacefully with them, who am I going to have to become? That is what you're going to have to ask yourself. So I'm going to turn the question over to you, and I am going to ask you to ask yourself, who am I going to have to become in order to continue to show up in this environment if my goal is to show up as if nothing happened? And if your goal is to show up in the environment as if nothing happened, I'm going to have to be forgiving. I am going to have to see them the way that God sees them. I am going to have to not hold people to what I would do if I were in their situation. I am going to have to create boundaries so that it is possible for me to do the work that needs to be done in this environment without there being any overflow into areas of personal

relationship that could allow for us to experience another opportunity for betrayal because I don't want to have that impact the way that we have to show up in this workspace. here's something that I always say to do that is probably one of the most difficult things to do when you feel like you've been betrayed by someone pray for them and who you have to become to pray for someone who has done you wrong and I mean like a real prayer, like a real godly prayer,

it requires you to take the offense out of your heart and to pray the kind of prayer that would bring them to a space of delivering so they never show up in that way again. It requires you to say things like, Lord, heal their heart. Lord, reveal to them areas

where you want to be in partnership with their actions, with their words, with their thoughts, and in the process of doing that, you have to partner with God to do it. And so if you have to work with the enemy, someone who has betrayed you and you have to keep showing up in a family dynamic

or any other scenario where it seems like this person, and I could really, we could really go toe to toe, we could really tussle. I want to challenge you to grow in God, to grow in your own personal boundaries, to ask, what is it going to take for me to do that? What am I going to need outside of the workplace? Maybe the workplace is going to require so much capacity from you that you have to diminish your outflow outside of work, right?

Because I need to preserve it now to show up in this space. what does restoration look for me when I come out of this place? Those are some practical things, but also just praying for that person and praying that God would give you the strength that you need to show up in that space in a way that honors him, even if it is not a thing that honors,

they give them what they deserve. Sometimes we don't give people what they deserve. Sometimes we don't give people what they earn, because if we do, we've been and gave them some things that don't look like God. So we don't always give people what they deserve. We give them the great. grace that we didn't earn, the grace that we didn't deserve. And we pray that God gives us the strength

to do that. I hope that's helpful for you. Ladies, it's your girl, Kayla Wanakey here. And listen, one thing about me, I love a good online shopping moment. But I can't stand when every website suddenly expects me to remember a password. I created back in 2019. And don't let me find that one thing I've been looking for and then realize my wallet is in another room. That right there kills the vibe and the whole shopping experience for me. But lately, whenever I'm checking out and I see that little purple shop pay button, baby, I immediately get peace. One tap and it's all done.

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Also, if you're trying to grow your brand, Shopify helps you create email and social campaigns while handling everything from your inventory to payments to analytics all in one place. So sign up for your $1 per month trial today at Shopify.com slash evolve. That's Shopify.com slash evolve. Hey y'all, I think it's time for us to start normalizing, taking care of our mental health, the same way we take care of every other part of our body. I know what it's like to carry stress, anxiety, pressure, disappointments, yet still showing up to do the work. But at some point, we have to make room to start showing up for ourselves. And one thing that I know can feel so overwhelming is finally deciding you're ready for the support

but having no clue where to start looking for a therapist, especially one that actually accepts your insurance. Well, that's why I want to tell y'all about Rula. Rula is a health care company that helps connect you with licensed therapists and psychiatrists who are covered by insurance. What I love is that they don't treat mental health. care like a one-size-fits-all experience. They take into consideration your goals, your preferences, and your personal needs so that you can find a provider that's a right fit for you. And listen,

getting started doesn't have to take forever. With Rula, appointments can be made available as soon as tomorrow. And with most major insurance plans, the average co-pay is only around $15 per session. And what really stands out to me about Rula is that they stay connected throughout your journey. They check in with you to make sure the care you're receiving is actually helping you move forward because therapy shouldn't feel out of reach. It should feel like a resource that's available when you need it. Thousands of people are already using Rula to get affordable, high-quality therapy that's actually covered by insurance.

Visit rula.com slash evolve to get started. That's rula.com slash evolve. You deserve mental health care that works with you, not against your budget. I am so excited for you to have this conversation with our guest today. I've been a fan of hers since Orange's and New Black came out on Netflix. I remember binge watching it episode after episode after episode and just thinking that this was an incredible, talented cast coming together to tell stories about women who are often overlooked or marginalized.

And of course there were comedic and dramatized elements of it. But I also just thought it was a unique way to tell the stories of different types of women. Daniel Brooks is an award-winning actress, producer, and creative powerhouse. She is best known for her breakout. role in oranges the new black tasty but since then she has done so much incredible work she is a julie art trained performer daniel has become one of the most dynamic voices in entertainment she's earned acclaim across television film broadway and music because them pipes baby the microphone stays on her standout performance in the color purple peacemaker and the piano lesson

which i got to see have showcased her range her depth and her ability to bring powerful emotional layered characters to life. But when we sat down, I wanted to know about Danielle the woman, not just the powerhouse, not just the talented performer, but what has it been like balancing career and family and marriage and still making time for yourself? And still, even though you have achieved so much success, what does it mean to continue to dream? What does it mean to continue to show up in spaces where you may feel different? I just had so many things that I wanted to ask her. I believe that this week's episode is going to be a blessing to you. We're calling this theme trusting God with the outcomes. And there's no other story to help us really tap into what that

means, like the story of someone who has had to pursue her dream against all odds. So let's get into this week's episode. How would you describe your life in three words? We just going to jump right up in that, bud. Hey, how you doing? I know, how you doing? I'm just Sam, now we just get to mind your business. Wow, right into it. Okay, my life in three words, I would say, is intentional. It is joy-filled. Okay. And it is, this isn't three words now, but like, I'm in the planting seed phase.

So I don't know if there's a word for that, but that's what I'm in. What are you planting seeds towards? I am planting seeds towards my name. next chapter. I really am. It's mostly based in a career. Okay. But I think that has to do with me too. It's like me getting out of my own way, me believing that I can do it, all that kind of stuff. You believing that you can do it? Yes. Yes. I'm starting to lean into directing and writing and and other things that, you know, are new to me. Oh, I love that because, you know, some would say, you know, a legend.

Oh, me? Already. Oh, wow. For sure. Thank you. Thank you. Very clearly one of the greats and still challenging yourself. Oh, for sure.

Tell me about the mentality of like, yes, you know, I'm accomplished here, but I'm also challenging myself in other ways. Oh, man. I've always been really ambitious. I've always been like, I know I can do it or God has more for me. And the thing is I know that we only have one life. We get one chance of this thing.

And I would hate to let this little life that God has given me be not used to its fullest capacity. And so I'm always just like, okay, Lord, where are you taking me now? What are we doing now? And I'm okay if things crumble. Like, I'm okay if I fail. I'm okay with that. But along the way, I've had my eyes. obstacles, which are myself half the time, you know, of just like, can I really do this?

Maybe I'm not capable. I don't know. Like, did you really put that bug in my ear? Yeah. And so I think I'm, I know that I'm at this phase of my life where I'm just more sure of myself. I feel like, you know, I've been affirming myself for years, but like I'm like, know it now. Like I know that I got the goods.

And I know they didn't come from me. Come on somebody. What do you attribute like coming into that place of being assured of yourself? I don't want to say the industry. I actually don't want to give credit to the industry. I think it's hard because like when you are, you know, Oscar nominated, Emmy nominated, Tony nominated, Grammy winning. Those things really do say, yeah.

Like I do have a place in this industry Like I'm not going anywhere But I actually feel like It's from me getting back up I feel and so again That goes back to the industry too Where in my industry you get a lot of nose You can get a lot of nose

You know and a lot of times it don't make sense And I've had a few experiences in my career Where I'm like this does not make sense one plus one is two and y'all's saying it's three and i know i ain't stupid like why i don't have a job and it's just saying no like what is for you will never miss you and if it's not for you i know that god is saving me from something or has more to teach me and so it's not that i'm not um it's not capable or i'm not enough or that i'm not worthy it's just my not be right now. And I'm okay with that now. Now. Yeah. When wasn't before? I was going to say when

weren't you? Always. Maybe six months ago? No. I think just with time, I think when I was younger, I just always, like again, so ambitious, just wanting to be the first to do everything. Like, I was 17 when I went to Juilliard. It was the youngest in my class. You know, I've always just been like, I want to do it. I can do it. I can do it. it not really always having the tools but just being very ambitious. You know what you said earlier that I love that I think speaks to

your character development is that you said you're not afraid of failure you're not afraid of things crumbling and that your resiliency has less to do with the accolades and more with you getting back up again. I feel like that Come on recap.

Well because everyone's got like this fear of failure and what if it doesn't work and then like if I fall this idea if I get back up again, creates another opportunity for a failure. But it feels like you've translated this in such a way that you see failure as a teacher. Oh, for sure. For sure, 100%. I don't know if I learned that in college.

I don't know where it happened, but, like, yeah, like, it is a teacher. It definitely is. I think, I don't know, we get so embarrassed by, you know, not being on top or not, like, just, embarrassed by feeling like we didn't accomplish something or whatever it is, but I feel like that doesn't last long. You know, I feel like you can always, I don't think you should do things to prove to others, but I definitely feel like you can prove it to yourself that you are worthy, you're able, you know.

So, yeah. Can you tell me a little bit about like your family life growing up? You tell me you're a country girl. I'm a country girl. Like you My mother is a minister Yes and my father was a deacon for many years My parents have been married for over 40 years now

I have a younger brother DJ Brooks I have a wonderful husband Dennis Gellin Y'all Google them anyways And I might as well give you a whole name And I have a lovely six-year-old daughter named Freya So I'm a mother, a wife, a sister A daughter, a friend A lot of things

What was it like growing up in church? Oh, I questioned everything. Yeah. I was in everything, too. I went to church 25, 8, not 24, 7. Period. I understand that. I was there. Bible study.

Girl Scouts was at church. My first job working at summer camp was at church. Okay. I did everything at church. But I'm so grateful. I mean, it was my foundation. You know, I really believe that's where my love for acting came was through church because both have the same goal is to reach people to help people

see themselves differently hold that mirror up to themselves so i really attribute going to church as my way into theater um and so yeah that's what i've always loved and and i know that it was from spending time at bevelingham baptist church you said you questioned a lot of things oh girl yes I was always the one to be like, well, if I can be frank, you know, it was like when it came to women being preachers or, you know, what we eat shrimp and all of the things or like wearing, having piercings, tattoos, homosexuality. I was always just like, but talk to me about this, you know. So yeah, I was a questioner. And sometimes I got the answers I wanted and sometimes I did. But I think what I enjoyed about it, the journey of being in church and learning faith for myself was that I had to learn it for myself.

Who is God to me? What is religion to me? What is spirituality to me? And not only what I've been taught. Yeah. And that was challenging, you know. because my parents did teach me and they want to see what they taught

and they child. And it's like, okay, y'all, but now I'm grown. Let me figure out God for myself, okay? And so, yeah, I never, he's never left me. That's one thing I can say. He might have been like, come here, come back over here now. Girl, stop playing.

Come back over here. But he's never left me. I love that you had those questions, though, because I do feel like sometimes in religious environments or church, like, we are taught to kind of silence our questions. And one of the things that I learned in discovering God for myself is like, God can handle my questions. As much as we want, like, God give me answers, we have to first be willing to bring God those

questions. And I feel like creating those environments, create space for me to, like, know God for myself and to experience spirituality for myself. 100%. What's, like, one thing about your relationship with God that you learned in adulthood that was, like, transformational for your relationship? That's a really great question. That what he promised me will be, it will be that he's got my back, that you preached about it before about him being a wallbreaker.

And, you know, truly no weapon formed against us will prosper, right? And you preached once about he gives us most. multiple weapons. Yeah. And I think when you're in the beginning of, you know, adulthood, your 20s and 30s, really your 20s, truly, but you're 30s too.

Like, you're going to have a lot of demons coming after you. I tell people the 20s are out to kill still and destroy. They really are. No, the 20s, she's, she nasty. She runs up on you, making you question everything you know about yourself, about other people,

and then you're trying to explore and figure things out. It's just, I feel like that's one of the great. greatest openings. Yeah, and I really feel like for myself, I've learned he has got my bag. Yeah. He wants the best for me. And I think because the type of person I am, I worry twice. I'm one of those people that like worry before the problem is even there.

Okay. And then when the problem is there, you worry again. Or half the time the problem don't even happen, you know what I mean? So I've learned to like trust that God's got you. Okay, so you told me a little bit about your child. 17 years old, you go to Juilliard, New York. Country girl from Augusta. Yes.

Well, born in Augusta. Born in Augusta. Grew up in South Carolina, Greenville, and then kind of grew up again once I went to school in New York. At what point do we realize, like, we're not just talented. We're like Julia talented. Because, evidently, you know, they're not just letting people run up into Julia. You know what I mean? Like, at what point do we realize, like, this is actually, like, a thing?

Oh, wow. I guess when we get our first big job. I was funny because my dad has always been supported. My mom's always been supported. But my dad didn't really, it didn't hit him until I got accepted into Juilliard. He's like, oh, snap. Like I ain't know what I was happening here. He jokes every time about it.

Sarah, he's always like, I didn't know I had a star now. It's like he's always joking about it. But for me to realize it, I think it was once I got my first job in Orange is the New Black. I was like, oh, snap. And it took time. Like, it's weird because I always feel like, and I said this before, but I always feel like actor years or like dog years, you know how like I don't know much about dogs. I do have one, but I don't know much about dogs. But like for one year, that's like seven years or something in dog talk.

And I always felt that with actors, like one no feels like seven nose. One year feels like 10 years. And so I was grinding that first year. out of school, just hearing no, no, no, no, no. And then I finally got that yes with orange is the new black. And that's when I was like, oh, wow, okay, okay, I must. And then doing color purple on Broadway at the same time, you know, and then building my relationship with Ms. Oprah doing a movie and just all these little

moments that God kind of reminds me. Because again, in my 20s, my struggle was like not thinking I was worthy of any of these things. I've really had an issue with making myself small and not seeing like there's so much value in who I am. But I think along the way God was like, no, you got something. No, I got you. You are special. You are talented. You are, you know, who I made you to be. Okay. The idea of like playing small in your 20s and coming to this place of like finally trusting what God says about you. First of all, I want to commend you because that's a

journey that a lot of women take a lifetime trying to figure it out. But you finally came to a place where you really, really learned to trust God and that. To me, that feels like we're talking about going rogue this year and I feel like breaking up with this idea of I need to play small or I'm not

worthy. You went rogue from those narratives and stepped into what God said about you. Yes. I agree. You're right. I mean, I feel like I have gotten to that point of going rogue on feeling like I'm not worthy. And that's a good feeling. And that's what makes me excited for like when I'm, I'm not trying to rush the time. But when I'm 40 and 50 and 60 and you start to shed those things that don't serve you anymore. Like I'm at that point. Let's shed the stuff that's not helping us get to the next level, you know.

So you go back to 17 year old, Danielle. What are you saying? to her. Ooh, girl. If I could go back to 17-year-old Danielle, oh, can I switch it? Yeah, sure. If 17-year-old Danielle had to go to 36-year-old Danielle, she would be like, dang!

You know that little meme when they say the other word? It's like, dang! I think seven, I know 17-year-old Danielle would be like, you standing on business. You like, you outdid what I could ever imagine you doing. And every, like, this is the thing about me. Like, you know how there's people, there's so many people I admire, like Valua Davis, right? And she's so eloquent.

And everything she says, you're like, oh, my God. Because she remembers, like, August Wilson said this. And, you know, Cicely Tyson said that. It doesn't land on me the same way. It lands in my body, in my spirit. So, like, when I hear you in a sermon or I hear another pastor, I hear someone else that I really has something to give, I feel it, I take it in, and then I embody it. Wow.

So that's what I feel, like the 17-year-old Danielle would say, all those songs, you listen in the Indy, I read, and about the journey, you know, and all of those things that, again, here, I get stuck on the words, right? I might can't find the words, but all of those affirmations, those scriptures you even read, they stuck with you. And you put it into practice, baby girl. Like, that's what's amazing to me. I think that is what my 17-year-old self would be super proud of. It's like you took that information that you were given, that wisdom, and you put it into practice.

And you executed it. The thing. That's what I think she was saying. What would yours say? What would you say? Oh, my 17-year-old self, if she could see, she would not believe all of the ways that she was wrong about herself. Yeah, she just wouldn't believe. I think that she would be so proud that even in the midst of all of the things that I went through, that I still maintained my commitment to authenticity.

in truth. Because I feel like as much as I've changed from that 17-year-old girl, there are some parts of me that still remain. And I feel like those are the parts where like all of the things that people experience from me

and the people who connect with me, like they're connecting with the core of who that 17-year-old girl. Like as much as it feels like the enemy stole from you, there were some things he was never able to touch. What do you,

I'm now interviewing you. Go ahead, let's do it. What? I like conversation, which you've been given great conversation. But anyway, What do you feel is at that core? What do you feel like that 17-year-old possessed that you're so glad that you were able to keep?

The ability to see people, to relate to them without judgment, and to not be so impressed with trophies and things, but be more impressed with. and things, but be more impressed with who people are. That's dope. Yeah. Okay.

What do you have left from 17-year-old-year? Oh. I think definitely the non-judgmental. I think I've always been open to people and who they are, people being awkward and different.

I'm attracted to that, like knowing who the person is. So I think that's something I'm very proud to still, like you said, like to see people without judgment is something I think I kept. I also think the fearlessness is something, the ambition is something that I have not let this world take from me. And I'm so glad about that. I'm like, you know, like not letting them steal that. You said earlier that for you acting was very similar to ministry and that it like holds up

a mirror. Can you unpack that a little bit? Oh, yes, for sure. In every way to me, starting with the core, which is the goal to let people see themselves reflected. But I've always looked at even like a choir being like the chorus. You come in and you get a program and it's like a playbill. You get the pastor who is like the leading man. You have the deacons and everybody in the church that are like stage management. You know, I just have seen it so theatrical in a way. And I've seen both of them change people's lives. Like doing the color purple on Broadway and watching strangers hold hands at the end of, you know, the number, the end of the show.

And also being at church and seeing people come down in their lives being saved. I've seen it. And so, yeah, it's always been this parallel for me, church and the theater that I just, I'm just so grateful for. I mean, my first church play was at, or my first play was at church. But, yeah, there's so many different parallels. I'm curious because you said you're thinking more about like directing and writing. What kind of mirrors are you building or do you want to build? I just really want people to see that we are so complex as black women.

Oh, talk about it. That's what I want. I want us to be in worlds that we've very rarely got to see ourselves in television, but are true in real life of who we are, just the complexity of who we are and how we love each other as women. I want people to see. We are in a world where we have housewives of everything. You know, and all of these these worlds that are so showing us in a way of conflict and how we were like going at each other. And we might not always agree, which is true, but there's so much more to how we love each other.

And I think for me, that's what I plan to do is focus on stories that are reflective of that. Like I'm drawn to things like waiting to exhale, you know what I mean, or girls. trip where like where you just get to see sisterhood. And I always want to make sure that I'm doing things that when Freya is 21, 22, whatever, that she can be like, yeah, my mama made that. And I feel seen. Yeah. That's what I want.

Oh, I love that. I love storytelling about the complexities of womanhood, in particular black womanhood. Because I do feel like sometimes we always, we only see ourselves sometimes in a monolith where we have to be the strong black women. But then one about those moments of vulnerability where things aren't always so easy and being able to really show that in a way that makes another woman feel less alone.

Because sometimes I feel like black women are some of the most loneliness or the loneliest, but I wonder sometimes how much of that is because we haven't had safe spaces to be vulnerable. I agreed. And this is something I want to talk to you about. Just maybe, I don't know if it's just like, I've always, I'm just starting to like,

get annoyed with this notion that we can't be angry. Yeah. You know, my mom was like, don't be mad. Dolls get mad. But people can be angry. And we've had this whole trope of like the angry black woman. But that's an emotion that emotions are meant to tell us about ourselves. They're this awakening in the body that's saying something's not right.

Yeah. And I feel that we ignore that. emotion because we've been told that and it's not healthy. And I don't feel like that I'm not saying like when I walk around angry, but I do feel that that's a part of being a human that we are not, we are no longer able to express because the world tells us we're not supposed to. And I don't agree with that. I don't agree with that. I mean, sometimes I wonder if that's like religion too, you know, but I do think that there is this idea of like suppress your emotion. only show the good ones.

But I do feel like I've had to come to a place where I can acknowledge what anger is in my body. For a long time, I didn't even know what I was feeling. So to be able to be like, oh, no, this is what anger feels like. And I feel violated in some way. I feel like I need to protect myself in some way and allowing myself to experience that was really liberating. Because, I mean, even the Bible says be angry, but sin not.

So it's like, you can feel this anger. Now let's figure out what does communicating get looked like, what does releasing it look like. But I do think we have to give ourselves to be angry, especially now, because there's like so much stuff happening in the world that if we don't feel that anger that we can channel in towards passion for change or we're constantly trying to suppress it, we may not show up in a way that can bring real impact. That's how I feel the same way. I feel like we need to find ways to release it so that we can be impactful. And I think, you know, everybody doesn't have platforms like we do. but that also is reflective

in what our families see and what they believe is okay to do you know like even crying you know I was so happy my mother just became a Delta and it was such a cool experience but I was watching all of these women like hold back their tears

and I was like and me too I'm like holding back my tears like why are we not just letting ourselves feel this incredible emotion you know It's just such a complicated thing. And I think it does have to do with some might be religion, some might be, you know, being people that of color. You know, it's a complicated thing.

Yeah, I am trying to be more emotional these days than like cry and things like that. I don't enjoy it, though. No? No. Why? Because it just like feels weak or something? I think it feels like, now this is what's happening to me because I feel like I'm leaning or being more open to it now when things have. happen that make me want to cry.

I am, it feels like the vulnerability is out of my control. That's what it is. That's what it is. It feels like a loss of control. I think that is exactly what a lot of women feel. Yeah. Is a lack of control. That's probably with anger.

That's probably what it is. That's probably with crying and everything. It's like I don't want to have any motion that I feel like I can't control. I think we're on to something here. So we have to be willing to let go of control. Someday. We need to talk about this. We got to impact this.

The women's need to stay in control. The black women need to stay in control. What's that about? And maybe that's why the stories you're going to tell are going to be these moments where women get to be a little out of control. Yeah, release control. Yeah. And who do they become in the process of releasing that control? Thank you.

Because I was getting a little lost in the writing process. It might have just helped me unlock something. I think that's powerful. And it gives other people permission. to lose control within context. You know, there's got to be spaces that we have, whether they're in our relationship with God, our friendships, where we do not have to be in control.

And maybe black women will stop being so tired if they don't have to be in control of everything, including their emotions. Because I don't want to be tired all the time. Are you tired all the time? Not right now. That's good. I'm tired all the time. I am.

Well, girl, you need to cry. That probably That would probably sleep like a baby I'd probably I don't know if you got whoopens as a kid But them whoopens that sleep after that Wopin after you let out them cries That was a deep sleep, a deep slumber

Oh my gosh Is social media bad for your mental health? Are we spending too much on other people's weddings? And why is heteropessimism trending? If the culture's asking it, NPR's It's Been a Minute podcast is talking about it. It's Been a Minute stands for your right to be curious,

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and indulge your cultural curiosity. Oh, goodness. I felt like this week, oh, so this ties in perfectly to what we're talking about this week at Women Evolve because we're talking about trusting God, with the outcome, which means we have to be willing to let go of control in order to trust God with the outcome. Have you ever had a moment where you just had to let go of control?

All the time. Yeah? Can you tell me about one of them, like one that really was hard for you to do, hard to trust God with the outcome? Oh, booking Color Purple, the movie. because they made your girl audition. Mind you, had done it on Broadway. Killed it on Broadway.

A year. On Broadway, Tony nominated Grammy winning. Showed up with great character. And what I mean by that is being good to work with. I've showed up. You know what I mean? Not a complicated actor to deal with. And I still had to.

audition. Yeah. And I had to trust because a lot of people around me was telling me to move with ego. Girl, you shouldn't audition for that girl. Uh-uh. Don't you tell them no. Uh-uh. If they want you, they're going to want you.

That's what they were telling me. And I was like, but my God is got another bug in my ear and telling me to put their ego to the side. Oh, that's good. And I listened. And I'm so glad that I listened. Because life has changed in so many ways, so many beautiful surprises by putting that ego down. And I feel like that was my moment, you know, of trusting God, going rogue on what the world is telling me is right or wrong or what I believe should be.

And saying, no, I'm going to trust that this is for me and God is going to lead me to it. Yeah. I feel like that's why God trust you with the influence and the opportunity is because I feel like ego requires you to like puff yourself up and make yourself a God, you know? Whereas continuing in that space of humility is an opportunity to just let God get the glory and just I think that should that does. It shows so much trust in God. And I feel like the more success or opportunities for success that you have, the harder it is to resist allowing that success to shape how you show up in the world. But it gets tricky because, remember, I'm learning how to know that my worth. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay. I'm learning that how do, so it was that weird balance of like, I know my worth, but do I should, how do I show? How do I tell them my worth?

Do I say, no, I ain't going into this audition? You better know who I am. Yeah. Or do I say I'm going to put that to the side and be confident in. and what God has given me. And I think that's where I had to lean into the difference of the ego and confidence and knowing like I do have what I need to, you know, I have what I need and possess what God has for me to make this thing happen.

But this side isn't going to serve me, you know. I don't know. That's all I got to say about it. But, yeah. No, I think that's enough for someone to think about. as they continue. Because a lot of times we talk to people who are maybe just starting on their journeys and how do we inspire them.

But there's something to be said about people who've had success but are still building. And how do you navigate the balance of like I do have, you know, I got some credits. Right. You know, I have some credits. But I know that I'm still not exactly where God has called me to be. And so how do I not like drink my own Kool-A? Yes. And like mess up what he do have for you.

Yes. I don't want to get in the way. Because if you got to build yourself up, then you don't need God to build you anymore. I need God to build me. Build me, Lord. Build me all the way up. And that's why I'm at, Sarah. Like, build me, Lord, build me.

Like, I'm in the reconstruction phase of this thing. And it's scary and it's hard. And that's what I was going back to, like, when I was talking about. Like when I was talking about those three words you asked me about planting seeds, I'm in a planting seed phase of my life. So it's rain, it's hot sun, it's a lot of water, so it might be some tears, you know, like, but I just, I look forward to when everything blossoms. And I can say, we did that, you know, like, I, because I know what's going to happen because I've let go. of that, you know, double worry thing. You know, like, I'm in a new season,

and it's really exciting. It's really exciting. That's it. I mean, you're literally trusting God with the outcome with these seeds. Yeah. I'm wondering, like, who are you becoming in the process? Like, of course, there's the outcomes

of the practical things. Like, we're going to be watching your shows or films. Like, that's going to happen. But, like, on the inside of you, who are, can you feel who you are becoming in the process? Mm, yes. I think I'm someone that's more sure of myself. You know, like even coming in here, right?

I didn't come in with a posse. Yeah. You know, I'm in the back, putting my belt on with your lovely stylist, Jay Bowling, we love. You know, like I'm sure myself, I don't need, I don't need validation from the world. God, told me who I am. I can stand 10 toes down in that. And that feels so good. And it's even better because like I can pass that to Freya.

Yeah. I get to teach that to my daughter. I get to teach that to whomever comes in contact with me when they feel like they're not enough. They can see that through what I'm showing and putting out into the world. I was going to say my husband has this thing. It's an identity statement. And you talked about God telling you who you are. And so I'm wondering like if you had to give me your identity statement, who is it that God has told you?

are. Who is God told me I am? I think I'm like searching for some big words or something, but whatever comes to your heart. I am a woman who has God's favor all over her and who knows who she is and knows who she's is, belongs to. I am a woman that holds a lot of peace and a lot of joy and has a lot of love to give. I am an understanding woman. I am a complicated woman. I am a woman who tries her best and tries to hold as much purity about herself as she possibly can. But when she can't, She knows who to go back to. Yeah, I think that's who I am. That?

That was very cute. That was very cute. You know, you kept saying the word hold, which to me speaks to intention, which is the word that you used. And holding on to those things, peace and joy and purity and a world that literally tries to strip it from you. Like, and maybe you've had experiences where maybe you've, it kind of slipped through the cracks and you had to reach for it again. Like, it feels like you're holding, that word felt very intentional. Like you're clenching it.

I just felt like in the spirit, this version of you that's had to clinch it. And I think as you've held onto it and gone into different realms and spaces, that that is what has been your anchor through those seasons. Your intention to hold on to those things, I feel like that is going to assure that you never lose yourself in the midst of everything, you know, marriage. family, career, that intention to hold on. I think God's going to whisper to you like how to show up in every season, what to say yes to, what to say no to, because you are intentional about holding on to those things.

Most people hold on to outcomes. And that's why it's hard for us to trust God with outcomes, is that we hold onto the outcome. I've got to have this way. I got to have this award. I've got to have this. And so we're holding on to the outcome and we lose ourselves. But if you hold on to yourself, God will take care of the outcome. Come on somebody.

A word. A word. That's why you are who you are. Well, you gave that to me. That was an alley-you. Because the way you kept saying, hold, it just felt like life may have taught you that you better hold on to this. Yeah. And when you ask me my three words, intention, being intentional was one of them. Yeah.

Yeah. And that's something that I'm really, that was like, you know how people make vision boards? I'm not a vision board girl. Yeah. But I made one this year. Okay. I made a bingo card of the things that I wanted to do. And being intentional is really serving me well this year.

So I'm going to hold on to what you say. And I'm definitely going to play this back on the podcast. Come out when those times I need to be reminded. When you hear your identity statement, though, it's going to move here. Thank you. And I'm glad you challenged me to say it because, again, that's something that I've always struggled with too. is, you know, what I was speaking about earlier, wanting to just sound so eloquent and,

but it's so much better when it comes from just who you are, just being who you are and not trying to be someone else, you know? Like, people will always connect with that, and I can always go back to that and say, yeah, that's, that's Danny, you know. Even if I stumbled over a word, that's Danny, you know? That's how I feel about speaking. I am speaking is I know people know me for speaking but it's not like I don't feel like I'm the best speaker because I do feel like I stumble over words or I don't always say things in the most eloquent way but I can say that it's always from my heart and I feel like when something's from the heart it always reaches the heart and I just I don't know I feel like people sometimes they want to like do content creation but they're like man I can't speak a certain way or I don't do it this way and so I shouldn't do it at all. But I feel like using the voice that God has given you with the language God has given you, with the capacity God has given you is enough.

It's enough. It's enough. It's enough. That's enough. We are enough. Yeah. We are enough. And God multiplies what we offer.

And it's like for this stage of my life, this is what I have. And I offer it up to God and God increases me and gives me more capacity. and now I got a little bit more to work with and it's like, do I hold on to this? Do I offer it again? And like that constant cycle of like offering again and again and again is how I feel like I've learned to trust God. Like it may not be enough, but it's what I've got.

And I'm going to offer it to God and God's going to show me what to do with it. Yes, yes to that. That is exactly what I mean offering. It's saying, Lord, what's next? I got you. I know you got me, but I can't get there. Faith without works is dead. So what work you want me to do?

I'm ready. Yeah. You know, like, yeah, it's exciting. I love it. And I love a good, deep conversation. So I'm like happy, girl. You know, I do think you said something. And a lot of times people struggle with ambition because they're like, you know,

I don't want to be too ambitious or I don't want to own it. But you talked about being ambitious. But I just want to add from my perspective in the time that we've talked is like you are ambitious for what God has for you. Only. Only. Only. That's cute. Only.

People say to me all the time, like, because we talk about accolades, whatever, Grammy winning. I don't like to sing. What? I really. I guess that's how I feel about speaking. It's like, it's not that I don't like it, right? Right. But it's not the thing that I feel like God really wants me to do.

I think there's times, you know, I got to play Mahalia, and there's times where I get to use the gift. But I think that's operating in how other people want me to operate. I think God will make it very clear to me, and he does when he wants me to use that voice. I'mahelia Jackson, in color, purple, whatever that is. But outside of that, I only want to operate where he tells me to do in the way he tells me to do it. So, yeah, I'm with you on that one. That means you protect your gift, too. You don't let other people abuse it for their own purposes.

No, and it seems like you don't eat it. Honey. We have to because when you know what God is given you, you're called to protect it and steward it. And other people may not understand it the way that you do and want to use it in their own purposes, but you protect it because you know where God has called it to be placed. How are you saying no to people? Is that an easy thing? Does it come easy for you? It is easier for me to say no with like career professional stuff than it is for personal family things. my 10-year-old punks me I have a difficult time

all the time it's not that I can't tell her no but like there's a negotiation before the no I know that I know that if I just hear her with the no that I'm going to need

legal counsel and representation what does that like for you raising a girl like is she like you is she different than you have you had to change in order to like she is

everything that I would want her to be She is the coolest kid We named her Freya Because we wanted her to know That she will always be free She should be able to do whatever she wants And be whoever she wants in this world

She is that Yes She got the memo She got the memo But I get the memo Because you gotta be careful That word The words are powerful

So that girl is free But I just love Just the way she is in the world. Like, for example, we went to this event in this older lady, wanted Free to give her a hug. And Free was like, no. And the woman came to me, older lady, came back to me, and she was like, your daughter's being rude. She don't want to hug me. I said, well, ma'am, she has a choice. She doesn't have to hug you. Like, why does she have to hug you? And I said that in front of Freya and in front of the woman very calmly. And it took her a minute, but she came back to me.

I'm sorry. You're right. And I just was like, that's my kid, yo. It's my baby. You got to tell them. You know, you have, no, it's your life. It's you. It's like your space.

And she knows that at six. Yeah. And I just, I'm so grateful that she's not a yes girl. She's like a questioner, like her mom. Why? Help me understand it. And that's what I'm doing more of. than what I think I was given.

I had great parents, but they old school. You know what I mean? And I think I allow her the opportunity to ask the questions, give her the answer, you know. And maybe even go back for myself and say, what do I really think about that? I really believe. You know, I think that's where we are right now. So I just, I love that girl so much. I love that parenting forces you to check your own answers.

Because sometimes we just regurgitate the answers that we receive growing up. And then when they add that extra. Why? Why? Why? And then you get that answer to that why?

And then you don't have an answer yourself? Girl, I got so mad at myself yesterday. I was mad at her too, but

she yelled at me for her the first time yesterday. Okay. And I was proud of myself. I was proud of myself,

everyone, for not doing what I know my mom would have to do it to me. Slap your face off. Swap your face off. Outside,

outside to the pool. Be looking at next week. Next week. I did not do that. But the whole argument was because she wanted to put this big old yellow clip in her head. And I was like, no. And a part of me, I have mixed feelings about it because, like, I'm the mom.

Okay? There's some things that I'm going to say that you're just not going to agree with. And you're going to have to be okay with it, little girl. But then there's a part of me as like, why not? Why can't she wear the yellow? Just let her wear the yellow little clip. Okay. And she'll figure it out.

That is just too big for the moment. It's not right for the moment. Or she won't and she'll be happy. Like, it's such a complex thing being a parent. It is. I was talking to my daughter about how, I think I told her sometimes when I tell you to do something, your response time's a little slow. And I'd like to see it pick up.

Yes. I'd like to command response. There's a little, the way you touch your iPad, I wanted to be that fast for you. And she was like, okay, so when I ask you to like, you know, make me a bowl of cereal or get fruit or something, can I say response time to? And I was like, mm-mm. You sure cannot. Glad we can have this talk. Because no.

And she was like, well, why? And I was like, well, because I am the boss of you. And. I am. You're your authority. And. I'm your authority. That's it.

You do what I tell you to do. For sure. And that's all I had. But see, that's why it's so complicated. I know. It's so complicated. Because you're on my timeline. I'm not on your timeline.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And that's, and I don't know. That didn't feel like a solid enough. Right. But I think it's also about we have to train you. We have to teach you. because it goes beyond the house.

When you get a job, you're going to have to have a response time. And if you don't have the response time, baby, you ain't going to have a job. You ain't going to be able to survive. I'm preparing you for the world. That's what it is. Yeah. That's what it is. And I think that's what I have to make sure.

That's why it's so complicated because in the moment you'd be like, dang, I don't have to answer. But when you take that time to think about it later, you're like, okay, I know now, I can say this next time. Or like, which I'm happy to talk to another mom and be like, girl, like what you say because I don't know what to do you know what I've learned though the power of circling back so like sometimes in the moment you got me I'll be honest right right I have a good answer okay but then I'll circle back like remember when we were talking about the bow on your head you know this is part of the reason why so like I've had to circle back because sometimes I don't have the answer in the moment and then we feel like okay well then next time I will but who knows next time's

going to be a different thing, you know, but it's never too late to get that lesson in. It's so complicated. Because, I mean, I don't know your thoughts about gentle parenting. I think we're, one, I think we're kind of gentle parenting. I think we are gentle parenting. But what are your thoughts about them? With a little sternness. Yeah. I am here for gentle parenting. Yeah. Because as we talked about, spoiler rights, spirit of child, my house was definitely making sure, honey, I was not spoiled. And there was benefits. I'm agree. child turned out great, but there was complexities to that too. Like there were things that, you know, I probably definitely talked to my therapist about.

Not probably. Let me tell you about spoiling the rod and sparing the child. The spoiled child, first of all, I still ended up pregnant as a teenager. Okay, and now I can't use my words. I don't know how to talk to people. And the rod, the rod was not spared. But as an adult, like my communication skills. aren't there. I don't know how to fully own when I'm wrong because I'm afraid that something's

going to happen to me if I'm wrong. I'm performative. So yes, the rod was there. But now... It came with some other things with it. It came with some circumstances. I don't know. But I'm... It's teaching me a lot, gentle parenting. Obviously about myself, about my childhood, what could have been done differently, but I think a lot of it comes with patience. Yeah. It is so much patient and communicating with your child. That's, I think, really the issue there. And it also was like thinking about the other day because we have a dog and our daughter had kicked the dog.

And we was like, Freya, kicking a dog. Girl, come on. But what do I look like telling my child not to kick the dog? Not to kick the dog. And you're ready to go upside her head. So you know what I made that little girl do? What child? Pick up all the poop.

Mm-hmm. In the yard. Yeah. And she cried eyeballs out. And it just was as harsh as her getting a whooping. You know, it felt that way to her. And that's all it was. It was just like, how can I redirect this parenting thing to still get the same or similar benefit of how, you know, we turned out.

Yeah. But without, like, all the abuse. It does force you to be creative. We have six children. There's six of them. So I'm not going to put any of them out. but there was one of them that was stealing at school. Oh, no.

And we, the rod had not been spared with this one. And the rod, the rod was not doing anything. Right, right. So we had to get creative. So she came home from school after I got that email. Her room was stripped down mattress on the floor. Some khakis and a white t-shirt were laying on the bed. And I said, since you won't stop, I'm going to prepare you for a life of prison.

Right. Because this is where you're headed. I had like oatmeal, no shit butter, sugar in the morning. A lean cuisine meal. Smart. She's straightened up. Come on somebody. He's or she's straightened up.

One of the kids straightened up after prison. It makes you get creative. So now it's like I have to figure out one. I think one of the whole gentle parenting people said like you have to come up with a consequence directly related to the action. Yes. Yes. And then it may. Which we both did.

Right, right, right. Yeah. It may require some creativity. But I think that's the issue people have. It takes creativity, which takes creativity. which takes time. And to be fair, like my parents, I mean, they were on welfare when I was born. You know what I mean?

They didn't have these holes. And they didn't have time or patience after working where they worked and dealing with things outside to come home and now listen to you. And so I do think their capacity for it just didn't exist. But like, thanks to their hard work and their work ethic, we have become who we have become and we have space and capacity to do some of the things that may have not been able to do. I'm saying that just because any of our parents listen to this. Thank you, Mother.

I know my parents listen to it. I am so grateful for everything. Would not be who we are. Not at all. Thank you for the rod and the worst. So much. Okay. Yes.

Okay, I'm going to do rapid fire with you. Are you ready for some rapid fire? Let's do it. Okay. What's your go-to reset after a long day? Definitely a bath. Give me a bath with a candle. I don't drink anymore, so no warm.

But yeah, that's in a good, like, TV show. I have my iPad. What are you watching on TV or what's moving you? Yes. I, okay, so I'm still a sucker for American Idol. Don't judge me. Okay, that's all right. I just love seeing people, like, go for their dreams.

Yes. But then I'm also watching Paradise. Yes. Watching Cross. Paradise. So good. Okay. Is Dylan the lady's son?

Don't ask me nobody names now because I don't know. The lady Sinatra, the lady who runs. And the boy outside, they say that's her son. It could be. It could be. What do you think? I don't know. I don't know.

Sometimes with Paradise, I just sit back and just let it happen. Right, right. Because I just have no idea. Like when season two started and we were at Graceland and Memphis, I literally exited out to go back in to just make sure I hadn't selected the wrong show. See, I exited out, but came back when they went to the wife, Sterling's wife. I was like, okay, I wasn't prepared, but I'll go back. It's such a great show.

It is good. No, when they tied it all together, I was good for it. Okay. Broadway or film set? Either. I love them both equally, but film right now. Okay. Broadway's very taxing.

Girl, eight shows a week. There's only seven weeks or days in a week. Yeah. I would have eight shows in a week. Like, I remember, like, when I was doing piano lesson on Broadway, I would do the seven shows, which ended on. Sunday at 5 and I would go straight to Atlanta to be back home for my daughter for one day. Jeez.

And go right on back on that plane to be at work at Tuesday at 7 p.m. So, yeah, it's very texting, especially if your mom and you're trying to, you know, make life run. But I've learned to not do that anymore. I trust my husband. He got it. Southern living or city life? Oh, Southern living during the fall. in winter, and then city life during the spring and summer.

Okay, okay. If you could only eat one meal for the rest of your life, what would it be? One meal? Probably pizza, but, like, I really love dark chocolate. Really? All day. Dark chocolate. Not like a 90% but like a good 72.

Okay, okay. Yes, lilies. Mm-hmm. What are we getting on our pizza? The way that your eyes just filled with some... No, you are passionate about this piece. Is it deep dish? Is it thin crust?

Like, your eyes went somewhere. Something deep. I really like marvell, mellow mushrooms. Okay. So, like, I like banana peppers with pepperoni. Those are my two, like, go-to. Very nice. Like, items on the pizza.

Okay. I want you to build your Mount Rushmore of actresses. What? Right here. We're about to fight. Build your Mount Rushmore. Oh my gosh. I think there's going to be people mad at me, though.

No. Oh, gosh. Oh, my gosh. My Mount Rushmore of actors. I'm going to keep this black focused. Okay. Okay. You definitely have to have Sisley Tyson.

Without a doubt. It's just disrespectful. You have to have Haddy McDaniel. Haddy McDaniel might trumped Cisley Tyson. We'll see. Where this goes. Okay. Viola Davis, without a doubt.

Lilius White. We're going to throw a theater girl in there. Okay. This one's difficult. I'm like, Lord, don't tell me I'm forgetting somebody. And I'm trying to figure out which generation. Yeah. This is a lot of pressure, and I don't like this.

Okay. Hmm. One person I can't live without. Hmm. Pray about it. He'll answer you. Angeineuella. She asks.

Down. No, honestly. So that would be mine. Angineu Ellis. Valola Davis. I'm sorry, sisely, I love you, but had to me, Daniel. And who else is that? The Broadway girl.

Oh, Lilius White. Tell me about her since I'm not familiar. Is that going to get me canceled? Is known, she was in Dreamgirls as well. She was in signs of life or something like the line. Oh, God. But she's just, she is a goat of the theater, almost like Audrey McDonald. Yeah, I know.

I was going to throw that one out there. But Lillius White is somebody that I relate to, have always related to. I was going to say, like, who inspired you? Yeah. I didn't even ask, like, who inspired you to, like, go into the arts or, like, who were your role mom? I guess maybe is that the Mount Rushmore? That would be my Mount Rushmore, but not the women that inspired. There's two women that really landed it for me.

That was Natalie DeSelle Reed. And she was in Cinderella, the Brandy version. She was one of the stepsisters. And she was in Eves. She passed away a few years ago from cancer. Oh, yeah. I can see her face. Natalie DeSell Reed.

I just love her. And Countess Vaugh. Really? Countess Vaughn was that girl? She was. People be sleeping on her. Like, she was that girl in the 90s. And so I will always give her credit those two for letting me see myself in this world, you know, for sure.

Okay. Yeah. I'm still stuck on Lilious White stuff that she was in. Like, not that quick on my feet. If you can't. You're a good time, though. Look at up. Lillius White is that girl.

Okay. Two more. Are you a clapback girl or a stay silent girl? Stay silent. Yeah. I don't have time to clap back. Yeah. You can only give me the clap back if it's like you really, really had to push me.

But stay silent and you just ain't going to see me no more. Yeah, period. Yeah, you lost access. What about you? I'm a stay silent girl too. Yeah. Now, even on social media, now we'll block you so I can make sure you stay silent. That part.

Yes. But no, I don't do a lot of clapping back. Yeah, no. I want you to fill in the blank. This world needs more. Hmm, this world needs more patience. I think we need more patience with each other. Yeah, I want us to be more kind.

And I, hmm, all of this is complicated. Maybe more understanding. Because if you have more understanding, maybe you can be more patient and more kind. So more understanding. Yeah. What would you say? I would agree with you. I like that you said patience because I think we need to be more patient with ourselves

and more patient with others. I feel like the sense of urgency that we have with ourselves and our dreams and our need to get it right and to be perfect shows up in our expectations of other people too. And I think it makes it hard for us to be compassionate with people. Yeah. Because we don't have that for ourselves. Yeah. I'm having to learn to be more patient with myself. Me too. It's, you know, because I just, I want to have it together and be right.

But I guess we have to trust God with the outcome. You know how to try it? Allegedly. Thank you. This was great. I hope you enjoyed yourself. I had a blast. This was more than things. Good.

Thank you. My pleasure. One of my prayers is that this episode, would give you permission to feel, to be vulnerable, to ask questions, to evolve, to release the pressure of perfection and hold on to the things that truly matter, your peace, your joy, your authenticity, and most importantly, your relationship with God. Thank you so much to Danielle Brooks for joining me for such an honest and beautiful conversation. And thank you to every single one of you for tuning into the Woman Evolve podcast every week. It allows us to grow together in

real time. I thank you so much for your patience and your prayers for me as I go through this season. I cannot wait to update you and let you know how I'm doing until then take care of yourself. And if you see another woman, make sure she is not left behind. Let's pray for those women as a matter of fact. God, we pray that right now as a woman is balancing her responsibilities, her dreams, her insecurities and maybe like me, she's going through a season in her health where she's wondering what does it look like to trust you with the outcomes. God, I pray right now that you would send support, peace, love, your presence, that it would come in a way that only she fully understands is a sign from you. And God, I pray that in that moment that she would feel your loving presence

wrapped around her and that she would exhale, that she would breathe you in and breathe you in and breathe out anything that isn't from you and from that place that she would walk in wholeness as she tackles the rest of the week. Give her grace and give her strength in Jesus' name. Amen.