Woman Evolve with Sarah Jakes Roberts - When Everything Feels Uncertain With Touré Roberts

Episode Date: April 29, 2026

We live in an unpredictable, often unsettling world. One that can feel genuinely threatening at times. So what should our response look like when we’re faced with that kind of uncertainty? That’s where bestselling author, entrepreneur, and Pastor Touré Roberts steps in. Alongside his better half, Sarah Jakes Roberts, and centered on his new book Knowing, PT leads us toward an inner confidence rooted in faith rather than external circumstances. This episode takes a closer look at radical freedom and divine intelligence, pointing to stillness as a practice for discerning direction that leads from doubt to clarity. We know this is going to bless so many people, so hit play and let Knowing be your next read! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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You have been shaped by certain things. Good or bad, sometimes indifferent, yet you have been shaped. And you cannot trust entirely the things that have shaped you. Sometimes even good shaping keeps you from God shaping. Right? Because I feel like, hold on, wait a minute. Good shaping keeping you from God's shaping. Yeah, yeah. This is Sarah Jax Roberts, and you are listening to the Women of All podcast. What's up with you?

Listen, I don't know if you have ever been in a season where you are just uncertain of everything. I don't, like, for me, I just feel like the pendulum to be swinging. Sometimes I feel very strong and very confident. and then there are moments where something happens and there's a shift and my ability to show up with that same level of confidence. I am thinking about after conference last year, a 2025 conference woman evolved. First of all, just the landscape of social media has changed so drastically. When I first started this podcast, it was 2018, January of 2018. I was doing it on Facebook Live in my office and then in my closet.

And it was literally just this community of women who would log on every Monday at 3-ish, and we would talk and communicate. And that's really how Woman Evolve started. And now here we are eight years later. And so much has grown and changed and evolved as it relates to Woman Evolve, but also just the landscape of social media. So anyways, after conference last year, we had an incredible time in the room. For me, it felt like one of the most powerful Woman Evolve conferences we've had. And I know I probably say that every year, but there was just something special about it.

And we had this closing session where the women were like loving on one another and hugging on one another before they left. And I could literally feel the presence of God. There were tears in my eyes. It was just powerful. And then I was expecting to do, as I have done in previous years, it's to like log on social media and like relive all of these moments with the people who were in the room. The only thing is I wasn't reliving it with the people who were in the room. I was reliving it with the people who were in the room and the people who were outside of the room, you know, hearing things about what took place in the room and making judgments and statements and statements about what took place in the room.

And all of a sudden, what I felt so confident about, what I felt so assured took place in that room, I started to question myself, my call, my anointing. I was like, how could I have missed it that much where I could feel the presence of God in the room? But now all of these people are adding their perspectives, their takes about who I am. am and I feel uncertain about my identity and anointing. And in that season, I had to really, really get into my word on a deeper level, not just for my own day-to-day maintenance, but I really wanted to see God clearly as it related to my calling and my anointing. First of all, my big thing is this, God, if I am out of the alignment, if I'm doing something

that doesn't reflect your glory, if I'm doing something that's pulling someone further away from you like, Lord, please bring it to the surface, highlight it, shut things down. I don't want to do anything that's outside of the will of God, even if I did it out of what seemed to be pure intentions. And yet, I couldn't find peace about this idea of like never doing woman evolve again and shutting everything down. And so I started asking God instead, help me to become clear, help me to become anchored, help me to not be moved when there are conversations happening that don't reflect my heart or don't reflect what I know to be true. And I'm constantly in this place where I am having to unravel my expectations, my idea,

so that I can lean into what's real and what's true and what's rooted in God's word. I feel like that is basically the theme of this week's episode. We want to talk about what it looks like for us to have the type of faith that allows us to fight back in moments of uncertainty and moments where we are unsure. So I am so excited to share with you some of the lessons in gems that I know are going to bless you. First, though, I want to share a question that speaks exactly to a moment like this, where a person who has gone through a struggle as trying to find her way back to herself after what she's gone through. She can tell it better than I can. Let's play it.

Hi, Pastor Sarah. I'm calling as a member of the Asian delegation. I've been a long-time listener, and I am truly so grateful for the work. wisdom and the honesty and the authenticity with which you present living out your faith. And my my business question is, I have recently been noticing that I've lost my spark. I got married in 2024 and through my husband's friends and families and messy exes, I feel like I have truly lost faith in the Christian space. I feel so hurt and betrayed by spiritual leaders that my husband was friends with

who would message him late at night, message him heart emojis, and just act unfaithfully. And I think as a collateral damage, I really just feel so hurt. And I'm mending my relationship with my husband. I'm going to Christian counseling. I'm seeing a therapist. I'm spending time in prayer and in meditation. And yet I feel like I lost that part of me that was once so joyful and innocent and genuine, and I really just shuddered that part of my heart out. So now I don't want to meet up with friends. I don't want to talk to new people. I'm not as engaged in church.

And I feel like I'm doing all the right things to heal both with myself and with my husband and setting boundaries with those same Christian friends. And yet I feel like I'm not. I'm not there yet. I'm not seeing any fruits of the hard work that I'm trying to partner with God in healing. So my question to you is, what do you do when you feel like you're doing all that you can to regain your spark after some traumatic people relationships? And you're just not getting it. what are some scripture-based things I can do to kind of heal and I don't know, find me again, or live out the life and the heart that God wants me to live out with.

Anyway, thank you, Kasa Sarah. Hope you get this message. Hope you're well. Bye-bye. First of all, first of all, what's up Asian delegation? I hear you out there, Queen. Thank you so much for rocking with us in the Walmanie Ball. podcast over the last few years. I do not take it lightly that in seasons of difficulty,

in seasons of transition and heartbreak, where you've begun to question your faith that you have continued to see this as a safe space, that means a lot to me because I really pray that when God created this vision of women evolved, that it would be a safe space, not just for the people who always feel strong in their faith, but for those who are wondering, what does it look like for me to have faith after what I've gone through? So thank you for trust me in those seasons. Then I want to say I'm sorry. I'm sorry that you've had to experience those betrayals and those disappointments. It's never easy to go through something like that where your heart literally breaks. As you were speaking and you were asking about finding your spark again,

I had to take inventory of my own life in the moments where I felt like I lost my spark. And I have some rogue advice to give you, some news that I don't know, I think it's going to maybe sting before it helps, but hopefully you trust me enough to stick with the journey. I want you to stop grieving the spark that you lost so that you can see the spark that can exist now. When our bodies, our lives, our marriages go through transition, we can find ourselves longing for what once was, longing for distant memories that we don't feel like we can ever access again. And the thought of never accessing them again, can make us feel so heavy and so disheartened that we start to shut down altogether.

And when we begin to shut down all together, we miss out on the opportunities to see what it can look like to find a spark in our present. So I use those examples about body, marriage, and family because those are all realities that we've had to experience. My husband and I had this conversation once. It was after we'd had our daughter Ella. And, you know, we were like honeymoon phase, just on top of the moon. We had the baby. Everything was smooth sailing. But then he started working more when I was still at home taking care of the baby.

And then I wasn't sleeping much. And I was wondering if he could get up and help more. And I could tell that, like, I was starting to feel resentment towards him. And we were having this conversation. And he looks over at me. And he was like, I don't give you butterflies anymore. And I really, in my soul, wanted to say, no, you don't. But then when he asked that question, I felt a little flutter on the end.

inside. What we had to learn at that season of our marriage is that our connection was not going to look like what it was before we had the baby, but we could tap into something that was richer and more intentional if we were willing to do the work. Your relationship with your husband may never go back to what it was before you had this knowledge. Your relationship with those people in your life may not go back to what it was before you experienced those betrayals. And that's a blessing because you have had some experiences that shift the way you see them and shift the way you see him. The question then becomes is, Lord, what can you do with the knowledge I now possess that can bring me to a place of certainty instead of feeling uncertain? I am reminded of Psalm 51.

When David writes this prayer, it's at a very critical time in his life. He didn't lose his salvation. He still believed in God and was, you know, I guess was not attending church. We know it, but was still in relationship with God similar to how you were. But he wanted something different to happen. He wanted a re-awakening. And in Psalm 51, he writes, create in me a clean heart, oh God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me.

That is my prayer for you. That verse continues, that chapter continues. And it says, restore to me the joy of your salvation and uphold me by your generous spirit. Sometimes we're asking God to give us back the old heart we had. And instead we've got to be asking God, what does it look like for you to create in me a clean heart? A heart that can show up in the life that is now available to me after what I have experienced. And how can you bring me to a place of having a steadfast spirit? So, my friend, I am praying that you grieve what was very well.

I know you said you're doing all of the work and it doesn't seem like it's happening. Healing is a process. It takes time. Be patient with yourself. and be sensitive to what your spark can look like now. So when you're scanning your heart and scanning your mind, like, oh my gosh, does this feel like it once felt like? Allow that to be a memory, allow that to be in the past so that you can say, hey, did that bring me joy? Hey, did that offer me more trust?

Hey, did that offer me an opportunity for faith? And little by little, you'll build the fire that brings you back to a place of having a spark that burns with a flame that won't be easily put out. Thank you for trusting me. I know I can't be the only one who has had a little bit of discomfort with your bras and shapewear. They are the foundation before the outfit and a good bra will change your posture and your confidence, okay? And let me tell you, I spent years trying to find the perfect fit and then I tried honey love. It's a female founded brand designed by women and baby, this is different. First of all, the support.

You're not constantly adjusting, pulling, fixing, and it's forever. size. You don't have to worry about that underwire digging into the soul at the end of the day because it's wireless. Honey Love has this bonding technology that actually lifts and holds you without the wire. So it's comfortable and supportive. I've been loving their new crossover contour bra. It gives you that smooth, sculpted shape under everything and the cloud embrace bra. Listen, it feels like you're wearing a cloud, but still getting that structure you want. Like, how y'all do that? And don't even get me started on the shapewear

because the way this shapewear moves with you, no rolling when you sit. It's giving support. It's enhancing your curves, not trying to squeeze you into something you're not. And can we just thank God for an easy bathroom access because whoever designed that was thinking about the real life moments,

we deserve comfort and support. Treat yourself to the most advanced bras and shapewear on the market. Use our exclusive link to save 20% off HoneyLove at Honeylove.com slash woman. That's honeylove.com slash woman. After you check out, they'll ask where you heard about them. Please support Woman Evolve and tell them we sent you. Experience the new standard in comfort and support with Honeylove. When I read my husband's book Knowing there was something so powerful about what he was

offering people, especially at a time when I know that the world is absolutely crazy, and uncertainty feels more familiar than certainty. I can remember a time where things felt predictable, not that there weren't casualties, not that there weren't atrocities, but they felt more spread out. Now it feels like every single day we open up the news, we open up our phones, and we're doing so holding our breath with no idea what new devastation awaits us. So when he told me that the Lord had placed on his heart this idea to write a book about knowing and having certainty in times where uncertainty seems so pervasive. I knew that there was an opportunity here for us to really meet people right in the midst of their instability. He's my husband. I love him,

and I could just end his bio right there because I'm just so grateful that the Lord has allowed me to have such an incredible man as my husband, but he's also an author, an investor, an entrepreneur. He is the founder of one, a Potter's House church in Los Angeles, and he is the co-senior pastor at the Potter's House in Dallas, where we get to lead a diverse community committed to growth, healing, and purpose. When we started having this conversation, I knew that, like, I could sweet talk him. Like, in February, we did the love talk, and I could talk to him like he's my husband, but I wanted to respect the gift and anointing that's on his life because I realize that this book is strategically positioned to help so many people.

So if you notice it's talking, like, I'm really trying to be a professional while looking at my man, my man, my man, my man, my man, because I believe that the message of this book is so critical to the times that we live in now. I hope you enjoy this conversation and make sure you get the book. It is out now wherever books are sold. You know, I always say that one of the things I love the most about you is that you are one of the most confident people I know. and you say that you can't tell whether or not that's a compliment or not,

but I promise you it is no matter what situation we're in or what new opportunity we're standing in front of, you have this confidence, this certainty that you bring into everything that you do. So I feel like the easy path to this conversation would be me going straight into asking you about, like, how did you get there? But first, I want to talk about you having moments of uncertainty, to yourself. And I'm wondering, can you share with me one of the seasons or moments in your life where you felt the most uncertain about yourself, God's plans for you, just maybe like you were

in a cocoon? Yeah, I think the season that comes to mind is when I was going through my divorce. I was, I had confidence, big confidence up to that moment, but that moment challenged everything for me. How could I, as a man of God, a man who loves family, be going through a divorce, unfortunately there were voices around me that fed into my uncertainty, voices that disqualified me from ministry and some even disqualified. qualified me from being saved. And it was a really, really dark time of really questioning, you know, people that you admire and you trust. Their words matter in your life. And so that was a really, really dark tunnel for me.

So what, I guess, when you say you felt uncertain, like you felt uncertain about your purpose, your salvation, like, what did that look like for you? Yeah, I felt uncertain about everything. Now, when I say uncertain, I didn't entirely subscribe to the idea that I wasn't great or I didn't have a calling. It didn't have a purpose. I just had to wrestle and fight for that, for the truth about who I was, for the truth about God's plans for my lives. And so I don't want to make it like I abandon entirely my sense of identity, but that was a season where I had to really find. fight to maintain that posture. I really feel like that's an incredible starting point for this conversation because when I think about people and the stage of life that we're in as we look at the world and what's happening in the culture, there are a lot of reasons for us to be fighting to maintain what we know is true or hope is true.

As we see the world change, as we see some of the weaker parts of humanity on full display, people can begin to feel uncertain and wonder where they fit in the midst of it all. And part of what I love about this book is that it is an invitation for us to know better, to hang on to what we know, to understand what it means to know in the midst of uncertainty. So I'm wondering, can you talk a little bit about what you sense happening in the world, the instability and the response that is available to us as people of faith? and questions, people of faith and questions. For sure.

You know, I was almost tempted to say that the world has never been here before, but the world has had iterations and moments of uncertainty in the past that we have overcome. But we didn't live in those moments. We didn't live in those times where there were real existential threats. So what really inspired me to write knowing was I saw a scary world. I saw divide and unrest and threats of all sorts and types from, you know, climate issues to natural disasters to wars and the rumors of wars, to the shaky economy and how that shaky economy trickled down to individuals. I mean, we, I mean, from, you know, pandemics.

I mean, it, the world got real scary. I remember being in the pandemic and the reality of it was, are we even going to make it through this, you know? And so, so I, I recognize how violent, not navigating uncertainty is. And what I mean by violent is, I mean, even like the brain is wired for predictability. And when I think about the season that we're in, uncertainty is not like seasonal. It literally is the weather right now. Yeah. Like every single day something new happens that threatens literally life.

You know, we're talking about going rogue all this year. And I feel like there is an opportunity with knowing for us to consider what it looks like to go rogue in a world that has gone rogue. Yeah. What does our response look like? And I'm thinking when I talk to people, when I'm looking at DMs, when I'm preaching, when I'm speaking to people, people are really afraid. Like there are moments where, you know, life seems normal. And then there are other moments where you can just tell at any second, at any headline, any news alert, everything that I know to be true can be stripped away from me. The job market, the economy, like what I know.

as safety right now, it feels like it's slipping through our hands. And yet you are saying that it is possible for us to see what's happening in the world and to navigate it with a sense of knowing that changes the way we show up. For sure. And I love that the theme of the year for you and the people that you lead is going rogue. I love that because that's what really knowing. is about like like for me going rogue is having this this radical freedom uh this cultivated and developed freedom which i believe knowing gives you that allows you to not be crippled by what's taking place but to be free enough to with optimistic expectation radical freedom not just cute freedom i I mean, being radically free.

And to be driven by that freedom with this optimistic expectation, which I talk about in the book a little bit, to expect unprecedented outcomes. You have to, sometimes you got to fight fire with fire. You mentioned that, you know, the world has gone rogue, and it has. So you can't be timid and constrained and limited and boxed in. And so it is radical freedom with radical optimism to see radical positive things take place through your life. I love that you're using the word freedom because I do believe that there is a freedom that is available to us if we can figure out how to let go of the way we think things had to be. And okay, so there's a part of your book. This is, I wasn't going to go straight into the book, but there's a part because you brought up the word freedom.

I want to read this portion of the book. And you're talking about letting go. And a lot of times when people think about letting go, there's a reluctance, a grief connected to it. And yet in this book, you are framing it in a way that allows us to see letting go as liberation instead. And I want to lean into that a little bit as we talk about going rogue, because there is a little bit of a nervousness that can come with it, and uncertainty. Part of the reason why we can't go rogue is like the world is uncertain and going rogue seems definitely uncertain. So it's like, you know, the devil you know versus the one that you don't, but there is a freedom. I want to read what you wrote about letting go. You said it wasn't

faithlessness. It was freedom. I was being invited to unlearn, to unlearn the beliefs I built from pain to unlearn the roles I thought I had to play, to unlearn the patterns I accepted as normal. but that were never aligned with who I was. Can we talk a little bit about the power of letting go and the freedom that is connected to it? Yeah, I think the imagery that I have is a mummy. But a mummy is about preservation. They put this whatever around this body

to preserve it in whatever state it was before it expired. And that seems really cool, and I think it works for dead things, but it wouldn't work for a living thing, because life wraps us like a mummy. It wraps us in moments, it wraps us in experiences,

and we become wrapped so tightly that we cannot move, nor can we take the form or shape that is relevant to who we have become, who we are becoming, and the shape that it takes to really have impact in life and to live a healthy and abundant life. And so for me, I realize that my journey to wholeness, my journey to become everything that God has called me to become is going to require new iterations of myself. And so in order to become, I have to unbecome. You know, we always talk about becoming as if becoming is an automatic process, but if you are becoming, that means

that simultaneously you are becoming. So what is your part in in aligning with that unbecoming? Your part, your sacrifice, your offering in that process is being willing to let go. And it only works in the context of God's love. It only works in the context of knowing there's that word, knowing how God sees you, how God feels about you,

and also knowing that you are in the very moment that you're standing in known by God. That's what creates the freedom. I'm free to unwrap myself, to unmumify myself. If I might use the word,

I'm free to, to let go because I recognize that I'm not even the one unwrapping myself. God is in the context of his love. Oh, that's so good to me because I'm thinking about my own life experiences of being wrapped up in fear and shame and insecurity. And I feel like for me rapping, it's almost like, okay, since we're using analogies, right? It's almost like a yo-yo, right? So like I can feel myself like come a loose.

But then one trauma, one bad experience, and instantly I can retract so easily back into that mummy state. When I sense rejection, when I sense abandonment, inadequacy, insecurity, it's almost like it has become my default setting. And though there are moments where I'm able to be free from that, I think the idea of living in it all the time is both seductive and sensitive. scary. And I think a lot of people are like this where they want to experience that freedom. But I think I have a fear of like, who would I be on the other side of like constantly being free? Like, could I trust myself? I think there's something that makes us believe that as long as I stay a little afraid, then I don't have to worry about failure. I don't have to worry about people seeing me the wrong way. Because fear does service in some ways.

Like it's so easy for people to say, like, get out of your comfort zone, step out on faith, do the thing that scares you. But fear makes me believe I'm keeping myself safe. And the idea of just like letting it all out and not caring requires a level of vulnerability. But I don't know this is what I feel like I have to battle and what I think someone may be battling is like, I don't know if God can love me in that condition of freedom in a way that makes me forget all of the things I'm afraid of. You know, we have to remember that we were created in a state of freedom. Okay.

And the moment that we started questioning is when that freedom and we were seduced into questioning. Yeah. That freedom became something that the enemy exploited and he took that freedom and God gave us free will. He took that freedom and perverted it and used it against us. And the only way that he was able to use it against us was to get us to question and not know because we were created in the context of knowing. We were set. We were in uninterrupted relationship with God. We had the omniscient one as our teacher,

which means that to a certain degree, we were tapped into knowing. And when the enemy comes, he attacks that knowing. So anyway, as it relates to freedom, freedom is actually our portion, to not be free is unnatural. He didn't end, but again, so I think if a person struggles with freedom, first of all, they have to recognize that God can handle the stumblings of freedom.

Freedom, we will stumble. We will, you know, going rogue means that it's going to be unpolished sometimes. You know, it's going to be there going to be mistakes, right? What's that scripture? the steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord, and it says, though he fall. Now, wait a minute. Like, hold up.

Like, so sometimes, and then let's not go there, sometimes you can learn more from your fall, from your dip, from your mistake, than you can if everything, it flowed smoothly. Okay, so I know we got a little out of order, but you said it's freedom, and it made me want to go to that part about letting go, especially as we consider what people are going to have to do

in order to position themselves to go rogue. There's some things we're going to, I have to let go of. But I want to talk about knowing in the way that you define it in this book, right? Because so many times I hear people say, like, I want to do this, but I don't know. Like if I played you the inbox from the mind your business questions, it's a lot of people saying at the end of the day, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. What does it mean to know?

Oh, gosh. To know is assurance. And the reason why I called it knowing is because, you know, you know, is because, you know, It means that this is an ongoing process. It is both knowing and yet knowing. But to know is to live with certain convictions, with certain things that have been settled within you. And if I might go back to science

and how the brain is wired for predictability, And if the brain does not have predictability, then it goes into certain states, the fight or flight state. And it's actually more of a paralyzing state because it stores up energy, if you would, for whatever negative thing might happen. It's unpredictable, as opposed to locking you into this creative place where you're able to move forward. And so knowing, first of all, is an assurance. It doesn't mean that you have to know everything. It just means that you have a certainty. I don't have to know exactly what's going to happen next, but I know who's holding it.

And I was thinking about this passage of scripture. And it's when God says, for I know the plans I have for you. They're good and not evil plans to prosper you and not to harm you to give you a future and a hope. So essentially what God is saying is that I know my plan for you, it's good, and you have a good future. God's saying that. And that word knows Yada, and it's a Hebrew word. It's the same word that's used to describe intimacy in the scripture. So we're talking about experience. So watch this. So God's saying, for I am experiencing the plans that I have for you. in real time, talk about knowing, I am in real time experiencing your good future. So knowing is

finding a way to begin to experience the good that is to come in spite of the uncertainty that you're standing in. Oh, that reminds me like this scripture, the joy of the Lord is my strength. Like we say it all the time. But like, no one is asking like, why does the Lord have joy and why should that give me strength? If I look at what's happening, happening in my life, there must be something that the Lord knows about what's happening that is bringing the Lord joy that should give me strength that I need to survive the moment that gets to what Jesus knows or what the Lord knows about the present moment. I'm standing in.

Totally. The foundation of the foundational scripture for the book is be still and no. So can we know and still be on the move? Because we still got things to do. Like, what does it mean to be still and to come to this place of knowing? Stillness is not about physical mobility. It's about inner tranquility. Yeah. It's about, you know, he says be still and no.

We're talking about the stillness of the soul. And there's only one source that can steal your soul, and it's the one who created you, who gave you a soul. And so that's one of the reasons why God speaks to us. A lot of times he speaks to us, whether written or through. his spirit or whatever. He speaks in repetition. You ever like read the scripture and you're like, I just read that. He said, it's because the issue is not about God giving you something new necessarily. It's about God grounding you in some of the fundamentals about, one, who he is, two, how he feels

about you and three, the plants that he has in store for you. And so being still and knowing is, yeah, you can have a knowing which is on the go. But the issue is, I can't know unless I am able to get steel. And in a world that is constantly tugging at you and pulling at you and not just physically, but it's pulling at your attention, it is a war to fight for your stillness. But I'll tell you right now, it's a war worth fighting because we are in a time in our world and in our life where we have to separate God's thoughts from everybody else's thoughts so that we can move forward.

There's a moment in the book early on where you begin to let us know that knowing is not something that is unfamiliar to us, that it is not something that we're like reaching towards and going to have to find and I've never known anything before my entire life. You were saying that it's actually something that we are born with, that we are. we know well, that we may have even experienced. You write, if you look closely, there are subtle moments, faint yet familiar, when that deeper knowing breaks through, little glimpses, gentle nudges, internal whispers. Can you help the people listen and understand that they already know more than they know?

You know more than you think you know. Yeah, it's true. You know, people talk about, you know, knowing can be, and some people would describe it as, kind of like an intuition. It's much deeper than that, but that intuition is more of an accessible term to most people. And when people talk about intuition or tapping into things spiritually, they often call that the sixth sense. With the other senses, sight, touch, and taste, all that kind of stuff, being the primary senses. But I argue that knowing is actually your first sense, that it is, you're born to know. You're born in the context and the awareness of

knowing, but we lost that. I mean, I don't know how theological we want to get right now, but back to the garden, they knew. They had God, God is truth. And God said, hey, this is that, this is this, this is that, and this is that. When the serpent comes to deceive them, the first thing he attacks is their knowing. He says, did God really say, now I am questioning the source of my knowing? And this is what takes place. And so he was successful in disconnecting them from what was inherent. They were created in the image and in the likeness of God. So they were knowing. So his strategy was brilliant. Let me get them to watch this. Go from knowing to question. And then ultimately from questioning to doubting and what did it do is it disrupted their compass.

It hijacked their compass. It sent a virus to their internal compass. And the next day you know, they're over here. And God is saying, where are you? So we were born with the created, rather, with the ability to perceive. In fact, let's talk about that. There's a word in the scripture that's only used one time in the scripture, and the English translation of that word is senses.

It's only in the Bible one time, and if you look up that Greek word, it literally means organ of perception. So God has created us, and it makes sense. If he gave us eyes to see and ears to hear and a nose to smell, why would he not give us the ability to perceive divinely. And so, but, you know, but you have to discover it. You got to trust it. You got to know it.

You got to train it. And then it becomes a compass. And so that disconnection that happened in the garden, it happens to us to even in our youth, which is part of the reason why I know you wanted Ella to write the book. I'm sure someone in their lifetime has been around one of those kids that just like knows things that they shouldn't know. Maybe you were one of those kids where people were like, oh, you got an old soul, you're wise beyond your years because you just know things that you didn't know, that you shouldn't know. Ella would sometimes as a baby, like not fool with certain people. And later on, we would find out that they weren't someone who should have maybe been around and Ella would be like, I already knew or we would be like the baby never really liked them.

We know as children, why did you have Ella write the forward to this book? And because, you know, I'm trying to treat you like a, you know, professional today. But I know that you were met with a lot of resistance as it related to allowing Ella to write the forward for the book. Why was it important to you to have a child affirm this idea of knowing? I think that children are less warped than we are. They haven't lived long enough to experience the things in life that warp you, that reshape you, that change you. And the reality of it is I hadn't even considered that until Ella came to me outside of her normal way of being, aside of her personality and said randomly, Dad, I want to write the foreword. And I know my daughter.

Like, that didn't come from a nine-year-old trying to be an author. When she said it, I looked at her and I saw divinity in her face. I felt divinity in her tone, and it just wasn't like her. And she didn't have a whole lot of information to say. There wasn't much about it, but she knew that she was supposed to do that. And I sensed knowing on her. And as I begin to unpack it, I'm like, oh, it makes total sense. She has a proximity to that space of knowing that all of us are really trying to get back to.

There's this passage in 1st Corinthians 13 at talk. about it says when I was a child I spoke as a child I understood as a child and when I became a man I put away childish things the context is that we are moving toward this this successive degrees of knowing until one day literally says you got to read it we will know even as we are known so the journey in faith is to get better at knowing you'll guess a lot less and again in this era of misinformation, of inundation of misinformation, of misinformation, of misinformation, of random information, everybody's literally vying for your

attention, the ability to know and to perceive is not only something that is going to allow you to survive, but you're going to thrive because people are going to be looking for truth, and we will embody it. You mentioned misinformation, so I want to talk about misknowing for a little bit. And I want to talk about the moment when you realize that everything I know about myself, maybe about God, maybe about others, has been shaped by something toxic, something unhealthy. And now I have to get to a place where I am dissecting and interrogating what I know to determine if what I know can carry me. into what God knows. I know that you've experienced traumas.

I've experienced trauma. Trauma changes what we know, and it changes what we believe. Can you talk a little bit about what happens to us when we misknow? Yeah, I think that every human being will go through a process of misknowing, and hopefully they will come to knowing.

God is going to use Abraham mightily. He knows he is. But the first thing that God tells Abraham, before he sends him out to be great, is he says, you're going to have to get out of your father's house, you're going to have to get out of your country, you're going to have to get away from your family, into a land that I will show you. Essentially, what he's saying is you have been shaped by certain things, good or bad, sometimes indifferent, yet you have been shaped. and you cannot trust entirely the things that have shaped you because sometimes even good shaping keeps you from God shaping, right?

Because... I feel like, hold on, wait a minute, good shaping, keeping you from God's shape. Yeah, yeah. Parents, environments, things that you have done with the best of intentions don't necessarily mean that those things will equip you, prepare you, shape you for your divine purpose, your divine identity. And God knowing that says, see, in God, good is not enough. In purpose, good is not enough. In purpose, great is not enough. In purpose, aligned. There's only, they're not, you're not an ABC, D, E, F choice. You have got, before God

put you in your mother's womb, God knew you, he saw you, and he sees you, clearly. And so he knows what it takes to get you to be who he saw before he put you in your mother's womb. And here's the hard part. Sometimes to get you to be who he knows you to be, you got to go through some stuff. And that's where things get tricky because you're like, God, if this is your purpose for me, if this is your plan for me, it should really be peaceful and joyful and easy. But here is the thing. He's the shaper. And sometimes in order to to refine us, we have to go through the fire. Okay.

You said that. So I want to talk about closing the gap. Because it, okay, in order for me to get from misknowing to that place of knowing, there is, there's a gap, right? Okay. I don't know what I don't know. I don't trust what I do know. And so I feel stuck. And there is a coach that is available.

to us, a tool that is more powerful than AI or friends or therapy. There's something that is available to us to help us go from misknowing into this space of knowing. When I was growing up in church, when you talked about

being filled with the Holy Ghost, it was so that you could clap, shout, and dance. It was not necessarily, at least if they were talking about this, I wasn't paying attention about this person who could be with me. and coach me and guide me and lead me into this identity that is available to me through God.

What does it mean to have the Holy Spirit a part of this journey in learning how to know? The Holy Spirit is everything. The Holy Spirit is God's guarantee that you become. Literally, the Holy Spirit is God's guarantee that you become. It would be challenging for God to say be this. be that and not give you agency to become it. So the Holy Spirit is divine agency. It's God's bet on you.

Wow. It's God saying, oh, they're going to get it because I'm going to give it to them from the inside out. And I was just thinking about, you know, me, I love the scripture. And there's this passage in 1st Corinthians, 2, 9, where it talks about how the eyes have not seen. and the ears have not heard the things that God has prepared. Look at what he's doing. In there, he's talking about the limitation of those senses that we think are our primary senses. It says the eye is not seen.

The ear is not heard those things that God has prepared for those who love him. So the reality of it is there is a whole world. There is a whole dimension of things that God has for us that we won't be able to see by our eye, that we won't be able to hear by the ear, and we stop there and we shout, oh, hallelujah, that means it's the future. It's worthy of shouting, but you've got to read the next verse. It says, but God has revealed them to us through his spirit. So he's disqualifying those senses and saying these incredible things are going to happen

through the spirit. And then if you keep reading in that passage, it says the spirit knows all things, and that the spirit freely gives to us the things that God wants us to know. And so my relationship with the Holy Spirit in the book, I talk about divine intelligence and the difference between artificial intelligence and divine intelligence and how divine intelligence becomes the resource that guides me from misknowing to knowing. But I have to yield. I have to trust. And sometimes I have to try because you sharpen that sensing, that ability, you sharpen it by, you sharpen it by, trying and sometimes it's trial and error. I sensed that I was supposed to do that. I didn't do it.

Man, and had I done what I sensed, this positive outcome would have happened. And sometimes it's more positive than that. I sensed something. It was awkward. It was weird. It didn't make sense. People around me, you know, told me I was crazy for doing it. But I trusted my knower, that organ of perception. I trusted my knowing. I did it and I won. And so over time, as you begin to exercise it and train it and learn it, the gap that you're talking about between misknowing and knowing, the gap between trusting and moving gets shorter and shorter. Alignment happens faster and faster, and it accelerates what God has for you. See, so, okay, so that's what I was going to ask you, because there's somebody's listening, you know, the WOMEEEVal podcast. You got everybody from

Like girls who grew up to church, the girls who've never been in church. And everything was like, okay, how do I have a relationship with the Holy? Like, am I just talking to the sky? Like, what does it mean to experience the Holy Spirit in this intimate way? Like, maybe in service or as I've seen, you know, I have felt something when someone was preaching or someone was singing. But, like, I don't know how to live with that every single day. I don't have the musicians. I don't have someone preaching.

No one's walking this out for me. How do I tap into the spirit as a practice? It's a part of my identity every single day. I love it. It begins with, first of all, believing that you can. Because remember, the first attack, the first attack was questioning and doubting. Now, was doubt. I'd say doubting over questioning.

The enemy's attack was to get them to doubt by first planting the seed of questioning. Here's the thing. They were so connected to God. in God's voice, that the enemy couldn't just show up and say, doubt God. Yeah. He started with this subtle question the character of God, because if the character of God is unworthy, then I can begin this process of dividing you. So the first step is you've got to believe that you can.

Again, if God gave you eyes to see and a nose to smell, why would he not give you the ability to perceive him and his voice? So it is to a certain degree logical to believe that somehow I do have the ability to perceive God. Second thing is you have to create space for it. You have to not be so committed to what you currently and presently know, think, and believe. I think that there is a level of surrender, to be honest with you that creates the internal environment for the impressions of God to be perceived and discerned. I have to, watch this. I can't want God's opinion and be completely married to my own. It doesn't work that way because we have

an unlimited ability and capacity to lock ourselves into what we think ought to happen, right? And so, If I trust God and if I trust the plans that God has for me, then it gives me the ability to surrender and believe that he will speak to me. And let me tell you another thing. I make up my mind to believe and obey before he even speaks it. Yeah, whatever you say. Whatever you say. And that's hard.

I ain't going to lie. You know, there are people that, you know, you, you, you, You, what was that song? If loving you is wrong, I don't want to be right. There's some people in relationships right now. Now, don't say nothing because I ain't going nowhere. Look, you know, just, I mean, I've, I've experienced people that want what they want so bad that if you start communicating anything outside of what they want, they will shut you down. Well, how are you ever going to perceive?

God's thoughts are not our thoughts, his ways are not our ways. And you're looking at your little five years, your little two years, your little one night. You're looking at that. God is looking at the whole of your life, and he's looking at the whole of your legacy.

And so you've got to be willing from the place of surrender to joyfully receive God's word. Okay, so I feel like one of the things that people should take away from this conversation is a lot of times we're asking God for faith to do something. And we don't get enough faith to do something because we don't first have the belief or enough faith that he can give it to us.

I want to say this right. I think we look for faith to do. And sometimes the starting point is not faith to do. It's just faith to believe that we can. So we end up skipping steps. Like I want faith to just start the business. But no, first of all, let's have faith. to believe that you can do it.

Before you ever get the steps together, before you ever get the website, let's just work on having the faith to believe that you can because that is what starts the knowing inside of you. If I can build me, then I can build it. But sometimes we want to build it. And I think that there is an unhealthiness

to us building it because we build it and then it becomes our identity because we didn't first take the time to build ourselves. If I can build me properly, if I can get to a place, where I trust God, if I can get to a place where I believe that God has good plans for me, that He'll be with me and the wins and the losses.

Then when I set out my hand to do, I can do with excitement and creativity and with joy because I have enough faith in who I have become in the process. And I think that that is what sets this book apart. I told you when I was reading it, it makes the integration of humanity and divinity painfully simple, where you just, in a feeling. I didn't know that I could have done this all along, that I could be human and that the Holy Spirit can meet me where I am and I can walk this out every single day and I can feel confident not because of what's happening in the world, not because of what I can do in my own strength, but because I'm not facing it on my own because I've got a coach and I've got guidance and I have wisdom. It just made it so painfully simple to me that I feel like if anyone is experiencing uncertainty, if anyone has ever questioned themselves or come to a place where they realize everything I know is actually false,

that this book doesn't just meet you in this place of uncertainty until you fake it till you make it. It meets you there. It comforts you. It acknowledges what it feels like to have that uncertainty. And then it subtly begins to move you into a place of having. having a firmer foundation in yourself. And when you have a firmer foundation within yourself, it changes the way you show up to the uncertainty in the world.

Yeah, that, I completely agree. I'm thinking, you know, the book, I think you felt what you felt, and I feel what I feel when I go back and read it, is you feel known, right? There's, the God who made you knows more about you than you do. And so, but the reality of it is within you, there's a resonance because

because you are in you. So knowing speaks to the you in you that you haven't met and it affirms that you, it validates that you, it leads you to that you and it gives you disciplines and practical steps to live out that you.

And there's something that you said just a moment ago and you were talking about becoming, you know, you hear the story of Millie, millionaires, multi-millionaires, centimillionaires, billionaires, billionaires. And you've heard it said before, they have a confidence in the fact that if they get broke,

they lose it all, they don't panic. They know that they will get it again. And it's because, and knowing is similar, it's because I have become, I am a creator. And creators are not limited to circumstances. They're not limited to environments. They're not limited to the uncertain. If you are a creator, you're going to create. It's what you do. And we were creating the image of God, which means that we have the ability to create our way through trouble, out of trouble, into success, you know, out of failure and back into success again. And once you have a knowing, this is that confidence you're talking about that I have. I've been through a lot. You know, my life has unfolded in many ways,

professionally, relationally, ministerally, I mean, just in all kind of ways. But I have a knowing because some sort of way as I've trusted in God, I've been like that cat. You can toss me any which way,

but I'm going to toss me any which way and I'm going to come back and land on my feet. That's what knowing gives you. And let me tell you something. That's freedom. It's freedom to know that my posterity,

and my prosperity is not dependent upon what's going on around me, but it's based on the reality of what is in me. And man, when you get that, you're good. You know, it doesn't mean that you're not human. It doesn't mean that you don't have to wrestle a little harder to get to that place. But it's a real thing, and that's what that confidence is ground. I don't come what may. I got that tattoo on me, you know, with a cross.

It says, I can do all things to Christ who strength as me. I believe it, and I believe knowing will give that same confidence. Well, you said come what may, you can handle it. So we're going to do some rapid fire, and we're going to see if you can really, if you really about that life. Like I hear you talking about you, you know what I mean?

We're about to see. All right. I'm going to take it easy on you at first, and then we'll get harder. Whatever. Who's the most important person in your life? As I'm sitting across from you. Me.

What? Okay, sure. Do you want to unpack that? Yeah, because it's not selfish, it's self-fold. Who's the most important person in your life beside you? Honestly, you. Because you're my partner, you're my, I wouldn't do anything significant without you. You know, as they're like to say, human, there's no one who knows me better than you.

that I don't believe there's anyone that knows my potential capability better than you. And so if there is something that I'm thinking or I'm feeling, I want your input. So it's you. Good answer. Good answer. You can come back. It's true. What's something ordinary that you find beautiful?

And now that's at me this time. I mean, I'm from California. Oh, yes. The ocean for me is, I think it's ordinary. There's ocean everywhere else across the world. It's all ocean. But it's ordinary. but it's it's stunning.

What's the one talent you wish you had? Ooh, man, singing. Really? Man, if I could sing, let me tell you why. I mean, and I'll sing, but if I can, like, really sing, if I could take my words and put them to sounds that come out of my mouth, and I'd be dangerous. God knew not to do that.

Oh, and I can affirm. Especially before, yes, Jesus. Do you know who I would be if I could sing? It would be terrible for you all. PT, this is an incredible question that I want you to answer honestly. Okay. And with true integrity. Clap back or stay silent.

Ooh. You need time to think about that? I mean, wait, what's it? I mean, stay silent. To Ray Roberts. What? You love to clap back. Well, you didn't ask, what's the right thing?

We're talking about the right thing. We're not talking about the right thing. We're talking about you and your default setting. Clap back. Clap back. Clap back. Because don't do that. Don't do that.

And you know you shouldn't do it. And so let me help you understand not to do it. Don't do that no more. Okay. And which you got to, which version of me are we talking about? Like we, because there's two of me. What did you tell me? No, what one, wait a minute.

Because there's one that's mature. Right. sure that will stay whoever runs your social media who is that whoever runs that fair enough okay period cliche okay

a red flag you ignore too often oh potential what do you mean I believe in people I love people tremendously I believe in the potential of the human

and I will see a red flag and I will allow my optimism about the potential to make me do stupid stuff sometimes Okay, build your mount Rushmore of Knowing. Build your Mount Rushmore of Knowing. Write an identity statement, a very clear identity statement about who you are, who God says you are, a clear statement about what you're called to be and do. And read it every day.

Okay. Last question. If you disappeared for a month, where would you go? For a month. I would go to a toram. It's between Cape Town, South Africa, and New Zealand. Really? Yeah.

Why? Cape Town is beautiful. It's amazing. It gives me California a little bit. a little bit, but it is Africa and it's rich and I think it would accommodate me well. New Zealand is because we went there, obviously. The food is amazing. I feel like nobody would know me there and I could just explore its beauty and be completely left alone.

Beautiful. Well, thank you for being on the Woman Evolve podcast. Is there anything that we didn't talk about that you feel like is important for people to understand about knowing? Not so much about knowing, although there is a chapter in the book called The Unfolding of Knowing. But I do want to encourage people that life unfolds. And I don't want people to be stuck in the moment that they're in. To think that life is about just surviving this moment or getting past this way. moment. I get it. I know you can get squeezed and be putting that way, but to stay radically

free and be driven by that optimistic expectation that that the best of their life is yet to unfold. Thank you. Thank you. I pray that the conversation blessed you as much as it blessed me. I know that when we begin to talk about uncertainty that it can be like opening up a can of worms opening up your heart in ways that maybe you were or were not prepared for us. I want to make sure we pray with you before we head out. Holy Spirit, you know our hearts, you know our journey and you know the path that we have taken to get to where we are now. God, I thank you because you don't just hold today,

you don't just hold yesterday, but you hold every tomorrow that we possess. God, I pray that those who are listening would learn to invite your presence into every moment of their day. And as they invite your presence, that they would feel the peace, the certainty, and confidence that they are never in anything on their own. God, help us to lean into the trust and the safety that we have in you, that it would be our armor as we navigate the ups and downs of life. Lord, order their steps as only you can do. Comfort their hearts as only you can do.

and propel them into destinies that require them to depend on you so that the world can become better as a result of their obedience and dependency. In Jesus' name, amen. We'll see you next week.