Woman's Hour - 02/06/2025

Episode Date: June 2, 2025

Women's voices and women's lives - topical conversations to inform, challenge and inspire.

BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Well, it is Monday morning, but we're going to get to what my first guest calls Tuesday Sex in just a minute. That's Ida O'Brien. She has coordinated intimacy scenes in some of the most popular TV programmes. Her new book is a guide to improving intimacy and so improve our relationships with ourselves and others.

Now, Eda has a ton of tips, for example, walking barefoot in nature. And we'll get to why she thinks that's a path to intimacy. But what about you? How do you foster intimacy? Is it holding hands with your partner? Is it making yourself a delicious dinner? Or something I'm not thinking of this morning. You can text the programme, the number is 84844 on social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website. You can send a WhatsApp message or a voice note and that number is 033700 100444. Now the United Nations has called Sudan the

world's largest humanitarian crisis and we know this is a war where women and girls are severely affected by sexual violence. We're going to hear about the open letter sent today to the Prime Minister by aid organizations and celebrities that are calling for urgent action to address the crisis in the country. So that discussion coming up. Here's also a headline that caught our attention. This is in the eye paper right now.

It says why heart disease will remain the number one killer of women according to medics. We're going to have a discussion on that too. Also today supermodel Hayley Bieber has sold her makeup company road to elf beauty in a deal worth up to one billion dollars. Now this comes hot on the heels of other mega makeup deals by celebrities worth millions of dollars. We're gonna have the celebrity makeup artist at Val Garland, yes you probably know her from the TV show glow up, and she will be joined by the Telegraph beauty director Sonia Haria. So looking forward to those conversations but let me begin with the kisses, the embraces and the sex scenes. Coming from some of your

favorite films and TV shows well they may very likely be the responsibility of my next guest. Eto Brian is a world-renowned intimacy coordinator. Her work has been seen in Normal People, I May Destroy You, It's a Sin and Gentleman Jack to name a few. How amazing were all of those programs by the way. She's also the creator of the Intimacy On Set guidelines which are used around the globe and she is here to tell us about her book, her debut book. It's called Intimacy, A Feel Guide to Finding Connection her book, her debut book. It's called Intimacy, a field guide to finding connection and feeling your deep desires. Eita, welcome to Woman's Hour.

Nuala, thank you for inviting me. You're so welcome. Okay, let's get into the term intimacy coordinator. Tell me what you do. An intimacy coordinator is a practitioner who brings a professional process when engaging with the intimate content, so the same as a stunt coordinator would do with a fight or a choreographer would with a dance. Now some of the shows I mentioned there, Normal People, I May Destroy You, It's a Sin, Gentleman Jack, I remember those intimate scenes so clearly which I don't know whether I would have with many programs, so there was obviously something

quite special about them. But tell me about this particular role that you've carved out for yourself and why it was needed. So before the intimacy onset guidelines, there was no professional structure in order to creatively engage with the intimate content in a theatre, TV or film. And in that void, then the actor said there was a couple of things that were going on. The director would be, I've had director say to me, if I engage with the intimate content and spoke openly, I felt that I would be considered a bit of a weirdo and a pervert because there wasn't a forum to discuss it professionally.

And then of course without that, then it was, the intimate content was like the elephant in the room, the thing that was not spoken about. And then when it came to actually performing it, it was, I shut, deep breath, let's just do it. And of course in that place, nobody can bring the best of their creativity to the intimate content. And the other aspect is that then what someone felt personally, and those questions about agreement and consent, there wasn't a structure to put that in place. So then what someone offered professionally, you know, so there wasn't, you know, there was a confusion. And that's what's been absolutely glorious in lifting the lid, in making the intimate

content something not just natural and normal, but a beautiful and important part of our physical story-tellings as human beings and then being able to have a structure where everybody can work creatively. The director can, visions can be served, the actors' personal requirements can be honoured and listened to and it means that they then can really serve character, serve story-telling and everybody make a really beautiful scene. And I suppose a lot of these conversations started after revelations from the Me Too movement. That's right. So I by default was creating the intimacy guidelines and developing them right from 2014. So pre-Me Too.

Pre-Me Too and I was already speaking in the industry and had gone to Equity to share the guidelines and I shared them with a group of agents in July of 2017. But absolutely there was a sense of, in July of 2017. But absolutely, there was a sense of, you know, do we need this? But the shift and the subsequent Time's Up and Me Too movements post-Weinstein absolutely changed the professional landscape and then the intimacy guidelines within the intention to work with respect and work within codes of conduct.

That's where the intimacy guidelines were welcomed and then the result of the quality of work we could create. And there are, I'm just wondering about what welcome you get when you come onto sets, for example. You will know of recent examples of resistance to use an intimacy coordinator. I'm thinking of the Oscar-winning actor, Mikey Madison, she was here on Woman's Hour,

sitting in the seat that you're sitting in. And she chose not to have one while filming Anora, which has graphic scenes. It was about the life of a sex worker. Would you have tried to change the mind of Mikey? So, I can't obviously speak about any production that I haven't been involved with, and also that's part of what we're bringing into place is that we're respecting everybody's choices, giving everybody a voice and honouring their requirements. However, what I would like to say is that best practices on a production are brought in way before the camera starts rolling and the production will have identified the

intimate content and then I will then read through, I will identify the intimate content and to understand that as inter-business practitioners, first of all we serve the producer. We are their ally in putting in place best practice across a whole production. And then of course what we're taking care of is both the people who are very empowered on a production, someone who might be the number one cast, executive producer, right the way through to a supporting artist, you know, who might be coming in. So I've worked on scenes where there's like pole dancing and lap dancing, and you've got professionals who are lap dancers and pole dancers, so they come with that adult industry experience. And then we

have middle-aged men who are supporting artists, you know, and they are there on that day. Believe me or not, to receive a lap dance where someone's undressing with naked breasts in front of you and that sexual content from 9 o'clock in the morning till 7 o'clock at night is a thing that needs to be taken care of. So we put in place best practice across a whole production and that includes finding out what's wanted, understanding what the choreography is,

putting in place the written work, you know, so the writing of this is what's wanted, whether I'm wanted on set or not, and that goes off to the legals, there's risk assessments and then there's follow-up. So even though someone might not want me on set you can hear you can see that actually there's a lot of that wraparound care that we put in for a whole production. It is interesting to think about the whole team or the, I don't know, the person who is little more than an extra perhaps in some of those scenes. Gwinnapalter was another one of course she derided the use of an intimacy

coordinator saying I'm from the era where you get naked, you get in bed, the camera's on. Well again you know everybody's requirements are to be honored and again you have people who are really experienced and really empowered and then you have people who are more vulnerable. And again, what I teach and what I, you know, when teaching my intimacy practitioners, the skill is in listening to each person's requirement, and you're listening both to what they say, how they say it, what's happening in their body, yes, and the language that they use. And then we're adapting, you know, so I had the joy of working on We Live in Time with Florence

Pugh and Andrew Garfield. And Andrew Garfield said of my work in the press afterwards that I gave them a beautiful playpen within which they could play. So there again we have two performers who are so empowered, who are so spontaneous, who are so in their bodies. So you adjust how you offer the support and that's the skill of the intimacy coordinator. And maybe I should ask as well what you mean by intimacy. Yes. Because is it always the same thing?

Absolutely not. Because I think some people, like I was thinking about it, like intimacy that you might have with your newborn baby, right, that you have that connection. Or intimacy that you have with your lover, which is sex and a completely different sphere. How would you define it? Absolutely. So I have here written in the book. There are different types of intimacy, physical, sexual, emotional, intellectual, spiritual and experiential. So that's all those aspects of kinds of intimacy. So with your partner sort of like, um,

you know books that you might read and subjects that you're interested in, perhaps things that you do together. Do you like going walking in the woods together? Do you like going to the cinema together? And then of course as you were saying there's a different kinds of intimacy that you have with the different relationships with your parents, with your children, with your friends, you know, perhaps with the people that you do yoga with. So all of that is the whole, what I see, a whole circle of qualities of intimacy, of which sexual and sensual intimacy is part of that. And I really feel then even with the people that you are, your lovers, that actually recognizing that all those forms of intimacy also help to go to allow, you know, then releasing into your sensual and sexual

pleasure to be really fully rounded and to serve all of that. Because the book is practical. I loved going through and seeing some of the exercises that you recommend as well. Mirrors feature in different ways. One as simple as staring at yourself in the mirror and trying to see yourself without judgment. This is woman's hour. Let's talk about women in mirrors. Well, so first of all, just really recognizing in the book, you know, with my work and again quoting from the book, from the mirror chapter, if the intimacy we see is unrealistic, it separates us, separate from its emotional narrative, then it's telling us a lie about ourselves. It's making us less honest, less

open. If what we see is complex, truthful and challenging, then the entertainment industry can help society understand itself better. So what we're bombarded with, you know, as all society, both men and women, but women in particular are the images of what we're sold as how we should be. And all of that's beautiful and wonderful, you know, sort of, but actually it distorts or makes us feel that we're lesser than if we don't attain this. So actually going, yes, our entertainment industry is beautiful, beautiful people are wonderful, but actually, let's just get it back into our bodies. Let's honor and love ourselves. And actually, for our own intimacy, the first place it has to start is with ourselves, into me see. And that starts with just that journey

of connecting with yourself, being embodied, loving yourself. And that starts with a mirror. But... Or can start with a mirror. Yes, but a hard thing to do. I mean, what do you say? I mean, the image I started thinking about was that scene that you refer to as well. Good luck to you, Leo Grand. Emma Thompson, as her character stands naked in front of a mirror. And she spoke to us here on Fullman's Tower as well.

But I think when she speaks about that, she talks about, I suppose, the expectation to look a certain way. And she is like, you know, this gorgeous Hollywood actress as well. But for the average woman, what do you recommend? So what I'm really recommending is, is that journey into just intimacy and connection with ourselves. So it also has to do with our societies becoming ever more disconnected. And that's where it's just such a joy to be here with you in person. Yes, I love it too when people come in.

Isn't it? But we're so much more disconnected, engaging in our life through our screens. And therefore, our relationships, we're less embodied in that journey with being with each other. So it's first of all just connecting with your body, connecting with yourself, feeling into yourself, what do I want? Where am I in my body? If someone's going to ask you, what do you want? What do I, what is your, pardon me, what are your wants? What are your desires? And again, this is what I do with my actors is sort of like, if we're going to tell this beautiful physical body dance, we need to be embodied, we need to be in our bodies, which is where then that's

where I give the tool rather than just saying be embodied just like walking barefoot or massaging the feet. Not wearing high heels? Well understanding what high heels give you, don't just do it as a default, it's a wonderful thing with a beautiful you know dress on to have that line but to understand then does that make you feel good or do you actually feel better and stronger and more sassy? Sassy. I like sassy. Sassy, sassy, sassy.

You know, by having your heels on the ground and feeling that power. So, so it's that journey of, of dropping into yourself, loving yourself. And it is hard, you know, but, but just that thing of going, yes, that's out there, but actually how do I feel inside? And as Emily Nagoski says, when we are disconnected and we feel bad about ourselves, that then we actually allow ourselves to have, you know, more abusive sex, you know, sort of less satisfying sex and all the rest of it. So it's really important that in this journey and what I'm bringing from the intimacy on set guidelines, which is really opening out and honoring what everybody wants, which invites everybody first of all to think about what do I want and that's the

beginning of this journey. What do I want? How am I in my body? Honoring myself, loving myself and it is a tough journey or can be a challenging journey but it's also glorious to start at that place. And I think the difficult part is some of those images and unrealistic portrayals that we see in the media be it with TV or film and I want to come back to that in just a moment but before I go there I mentioned it's Monday morning let's talk about Tuesday Sex. How would you describe Tuesday Sex and its purpose? So I had the joy of working, of being on a panel discussion at Sundance with the amazing Dr. Ordna Goralnek, who has her TV series, Couples Therapy. And we spoke a lot in our

preparation for that panel about sort of the frame within which you make the work and the frame within which, you know, what the choices are, the choreography of what goes out into the world. And after we had the panel discussion, she came to me and said, oh my goodness, I'm understanding that actually what you do bring more realistic sex. And I'm inviting that writing, write really good, realistic, anatomically correct sex scenes

so that all of our humanity can feel okay about itself. Again, when we see something unrealistic, it distance us from ourselves. And then that goes into, yeah, great, having erotic, beautiful, flying off the rafters intimate content, but let's also have that waking up in the morning. And if that's couples, you know, that they have sex in the morning, sort of rolling over and perhaps you might go, yeah, great, but go and brush your teeth first. You know? So we have this content and again, working with a couples therapist, Lindsay Blair, who comes and teaches myself and my intimacy practitioners about the anatomy of arousal. And she was saying she has couples coming to her, she's a couples therapist, and they feel they're

wrong. And they describe how, you know, things are not good in their intimate lives, and she goes, you are normal. So again, it's understanding, and this is a bit that in my training with Lindsay Blair, she taught us both the anatomy of arousal for men and the anatomy of arousal for women. And oh my goodness, as a mid-fifties woman, I didn't know what happened internally in the anatomy of arousal. So I have all the diagrams here because it was mind blowing to me. And when we understand the anatomy of our arousal, then we understand what's going on. And again, so this myth of penetration after like 30 seconds of kissing.

Which we often see on screen. Which we often see on screen. And again, the greatest presentation for women around, you know, genital concerns are vaginal pain. And that comes from a lack of understanding of actually what it takes for a woman to need lubrication in some way, to need time before penetration can happen. So these kind of details, the anatomy, the understanding and education will allow us to enjoy sex in all of its gamuts. And that thing of Tuesday sex is about just knowing that sort of like a quickie or just, you know, a kiss and a cuddle and a naked skin together is as valuable, just, you know, something that's not all things, you know,

like a three course meal or bells and whistles. It can be a gorgeous snack. Exactly. All of it is to be welcomed, honoured and to be enjoyed for all of its beauty. And for enhancing that intimacy. Before I let you go though, I know you sometimes don't wear makeup on set, even though some people have it as an armour, I think you take it off to be closer to the people shall we say. But you know there is plastic surgery of course happening, a go-go particularly, we see it on screens now, we can see it quite clearly I think at times. There's not a lot of body hair

going on either and I'd just be curious for your thoughts on that and kind of where, what we're seeing on screen, how it impacts I suppose on other people's body image in real life. That's right. And again, it's not just for women, but for men as well. There's this sort of like, yeah, again, just that that stepping ways to this sort of very homogenized body and and body hair is one of those aspects. Again, it's natural, it's normal, you know, sort of many of young young people feel as soon as they become sexually active, they need to remove their gentle hair.

And again, so what I sort of invite in the industry is, yes, there's times when sort of somebody would groom themselves and take all that body hair off, but at that time, that it's right and proper that they don't. So for example, I did a wonderful film set in the 1920s. And you know, myself and the lead and the director spoke about it would be natural, normal for body hair that wouldn't have a groomed genital pubic hair and wanting that to be part of the reality. So that's also what we're looking at is how we reflect who we are as human beings back

so that we feel good and are honoured in who we are in our everyday selves. One tip you'd like readers to take away? I'd like to take away just the joy of what the intimacy onset guidelines have done is lifted the lid and allowed the aspect of who we are in our intimate, beautiful, loving selves to be a natural, normal and an enhanced creative part of our human storytelling. And that's what this book is doing, is lifting the lid and inviting everybody to consider it as an important part of your Life and the book gives tips

In order to navigate that and I'm absolutely delighted to be sharing that out there in the world One comment coming in I feel very strongly about the need for intimacy coordinators We're all becoming unshockable either through sex or violence seen on screen My question is why we need to actually see the sex rather than just imagine I think film directors are all trying to outdo each other with what they can get away with. I'm in no way a prude and have had a very loving and long marriage. So one comment, Eta O'Brien for you there. Intimacy is out on Thursday. Thanks so much for coming into the studio. We are taking your comments 84844. If you'd

like to talk about how you foster intimacy maybe listening to Eita there might have sparked some thoughts as well do get in touch. Now a group of experts have highlighted that in global heart disease clinical trials less than 30% of the people taking part are women. This is despite more than 30,000 women being admitted to hospital in the UK each year due to a heart attack. Women are twice as likely to die of coronary heart disease, the main cause of heart attacks, than they are of breast cancer. I'm joined by one of those experts right now, Vijay Kannadian, who is professor of interventional cardiology at Newcastle University. You're very welcome. So why do you think people,

women, excuse me, are not taking part in trials? Thank you very much for having me. The reason is multifactorial. Women traditionally have a tendency to put their family first. So obviously when they come to hospital with a heart problem, they want to get their heart problem fixed and they say, I want to go back home and look after my children, look after my husband. And also, a lot of the research are tailored for male participants, for example. So there is a lot that the researchers, the clinicians, will also have to do. And women, of course, they do tend

to have a lot of caring responsibilities. But we can make their follow-up appointments a lot more flexible to fit around the schedule of the female patient rather than having to mandate fixed follow-up protocols. And yeah, and even women themselves, they have a number of reasons. They don't think of heart first and cardiovascular disease, as you have just mentioned, is the number one killer for women in the UK and worldwide. And women present with different symptoms, for example,

when compared to men following a heart problem. And they have a number of other additional risk factors, including those contributed by gynecological conditions, like endometriosis, polycystic ovarian conditions, pregnancy related conditions and of course the homeowner factors such as when they reach the perimenopausal or menopausal the estrogen goes down and they're at higher risk. I think that's true Vijay that many people wouldn't group those aspects together you know if you think of reproductive health you don't always attach it to heart health

as well and I want to come back to some of those but what percentage of women are in these trials in the majority of these trials would you say? It varies some studies only have 5% of particularly studies that evaluate new drug therapies, and some studies around 25%. So maximum around 30% of clinical trial participants are female. But we have shown in one of my own studies that I published in the New England Journal of Medicine

last year conducted in the UK, we had 45% of patients were female. So that is the largest percentage of women participating in research. So we have shown that it is possible to have women involved in research studies. And what was the difference there? How did you approach women? Yes. So there is also saying that studies led by female investigators. So I am, I was the chief investigator for this study and that is also one of the key elements that we are trying to address to have more female investigators, more females as part of the research team. And women needs, I'm a woman too, so we need a lot of trust in the person who's explaining to us the study. So and women will have a lot of questions and it is the responsibility of the

clinicians to make sure that we address all of the questions that a woman might have to enable her to participate in the research study. So your research study for example where you said you had 45% of women, how long was that? How long did it take? That study was affected by the pandemic so I think it ran around five to seven years period. Okay interesting because that would be a significant amount of time obviously affected by the pandemic but trials can last a number of years. I'm just thinking about the time commitment that people put into them. Yes, so most of the studies the primary outcome that we are looking for is usually around 12 months and some studies we will want to know the long-term effect of the the research intervention whether it's medication or procedure that we are doing on the long term but the follow-ups, not necessarily the female needs

to come into hospital, we can also conduct them remotely through telephone follow-ups. And that's one of the recommendations that we are making in our document that was published this morning to make sure that the follow-up appointments are flexible. If she needs to take her child to school in the morning, then make it mid-afternoon or something like that. So make it more flexible for the women. And that's not the case at the moment? That is not the case at the moment, not for all of the

studies, which is what something we are trying to address in many of the research studies that we are taking part in. And also big funders in the UK, we have big funders that support clinical research are now mandating that these kind of strategies are implemented upfront to ensure that women participate in and also having female patients themselves. lived an experience of heart condition as part of the study design so they can share actually this doesn't work, this works. Also having them as part of the trial team to identify why that particular area of the region has got low number of females and that has to be done straight from the beginning not not when things are not going well. Let me get back to symptoms, which you mentioned are different, how they present in women compared to men when it comes to heart disease. What should people know?

So the traditional feeling is the tightness when they're having a heart attack, is the tightness across a band across their chest. But women can generally feel unwell, and she might put it down to, I've done a lot of work today, I'm not feeling well. It is not to scare our patients, but for them to think in their mind, could this be my heart? I have family history of heart trouble. I have risk factors like blood pressure, my cholesterol is high. So they themselves are thinking about it and going to the doctors, their general practitioner, for example.

We've involved general practitioners in this document and say, doctor, I hadn't been feeling very well. Could this be my heart? And they can initiate the test that lead to the right diagnosis. Some people might feel sickly, feel nauseous, and they might have pain in the back rather than on the front. You're pointing to the back of your neck there as I speak to you. Yes, back of the neck even, or in between the shoulder blades. So these symptoms, we really do not want the women to, of course, if you've been exercising or something you're likely to have, but if it doesn't go away and you have a family history of heart problem and you have risk factors, then it's best

to get checked out rather than putting up with the pain, for example. I understand and I will of course say to people that you know if they do have any concerns to consult their GP. But before I let you go Vijayay, you mentioned endometriosis, polycystic ovary, perimenopause, menopause, that they are also things or times to be thinking about cardiovascular disease because they make women more prone to it. Absolutely. This is something that has been ignored for a long time and that is one of the reasons why we come, collective effort. It's not just one person dealing with it. For the women, whether it's a gynecological problem, whether it's a heart problem, whether it is a stroke,

it's all her problem. But she's being dealt with by different specialties. And we are learning. There are so many research studies, and recently even learned that even if young girls if they have early menarche for example they are at risk of cardiovascular problems in the future and excessive bleeding for example relating to fibroids. So as a woman myself I feel you know really bad about it that we we have these

additional risk factors but what the key is that most of these are preventable. So the gynecologist can deal with the gynecological problem but also alerting to our general practitioners or if there is a say undiagnosed blood pressure for example, undiagnosed cholesterol, then they can be treated and treating them with the medication can reduce their risk significantly. And you hope by speaking out and making this information public to raise awareness and get people thinking about it. Absolutely. It's raising awareness is such a key thing. I've had patients who've put

up with chest pain for seven months and they've been suffering. Women, you know, we talk about resilience. We are resilient, but I would say it's an incorrect resilience. So if you have the problem, you get help. So that's the whole idea of raising awareness and also for women to know, yes, we are women, we have gynecological problem, breast cancer, all of the other things that we are affected and afflicted by, yet all of these can have consequences on the cardiovascular health.

And it's almost empowering the women themselves. Even I do that myself. I go check my blood pressure, check my cholesterol. And if everybody does that, and I think we can change the statistics of women dying unnecessarily due to cardiovascular disease, hopeful, and also having our male partners also championing for our health and they should it's always the women that says, why

don't you go and look, I'll call the ambulance, I'll call the doctor. But if men also does the same for women, how incredible that will be. And we can change the statistics and help save the lives of so many women not only in the UK but worldwide. A really good point as well for the men to push their women to get it checked out. Vijay, Canadian Professor of Interventional Cardiology at Newcastle University, thank you so much. Now are you one of the growing numbers of women going it alone? By that I mean have you decided to have a child without a partner? Perhaps you did

it with artificial insemination or IVF, maybe you adopted a child as a solo parent and maybe this was recently or a long time ago. It can be a very expensive thing to do, sometimes with stigma and a lack of understanding from those around you. Whenever it was and whatever your experience was, we'd love to hear from you for an upcoming series on the topic. It is possible we may not have to give your name, so do get in touch. We'd love to hear from you. You can text us 84844. You can send a WhatsApp message or a voice note.

That number is 03 700 100 444 and on social media we're at BBC Woman's Hour or indeed email us through our website. I'm looking forward to hearing those stories. Sally in Wales got in touch, she says, as a 62 year old single woman, I've never sat down and actually thought about articulating what I want sexually. Mad really? Thank you. Thanks Sally for getting in touch. Let me move on. Now the United Nations has called Sudan the world's largest

humanitarian crisis. An open letter organised by UK aid organisations has just been delivered to 10 Downing Street today. It was signed by Sudanese activists, UK aid leaders and high-profile figures demanding that the UK government take urgent action to address the worsening crisis. They say over 25 million people are now facing starvation and that women and girls are particularly vulnerable with harrowing reports of gender-based violence. This comes as the medical charity Medicines en Frontierre reported that 659 survivors of sexual violence in South Derv for between January of 2024 and March of 2025 of those 86 percent reported that they were

raped. So this is obviously a very distressing topic just to let you know as we begin to speak to Eva Carr campaigner and founder of Women for Sudan and Sudan Transnational Consortium. They are signatories of the letter. Good to have you with us. Tell me a little bit about this action, delivering the letter, what you want to happen. Thank you and good morning, Mula. So this action was organized by Plan International UK,

together with a coalition of Sudanese civil society, as well as UK aid organizations and some celebrity sign-ons who wanted to endorse a lesser and public petition campaign specifically targeting number 10 Downing Street to pull the attention of the prime minister to take urgent action to address the worsening humanitarian crisis in Sudan. This of course comes just six weeks after the UK, the foreign secretary, hosted crisis talks in London around the anniversary on April 15th and during a time during which we saw an escalation to the violence. You've said in the letter that women and girls are especially vulnerable. What are you hearing? Well, unfortunately we're hearing very, very distressing and, you know, grim detail. It is, as you so kindly warned your listeners, we're

hearing about rape, gang rape, abduction, sexual slavery, forced marriage, forced impregnation and this is affecting men and boys but of course women and girls are especially vulnerable and the ages range from 75 to as young as one year old, unfortunately. With this, I know that a Foreign and, Foreign Commonwealth and Development Office spokesperson has said to us that, as the Foreign Secretary has previously said, that yes, Sudan is suffering one of the worst humanitarian catastrophes on record, which is why they convened leaders from around the world in April to strengthen support for the Sudanese people. They say the UK is doing all they can to provide

aid. In April the Foreign Secretary announced £120 million to support over 650,000 Sudanese people in desperate need. It says the number of people who need help will rise if the warring parties continue to show an appalling disregard for human life by blocking aid routes that must be kept open, accessible and safe. I'm sure you're familiar with all of that Eva, but what's your response to that and what is it you're looking for in addition? Thank you. I mean, you know, the asset that we saw, the engagement of the UK Foreign Secretary on Sudan was, you Sudan was very much welcomed.

And those talks, people had high hopes for the intention behind them. But unfortunately, we didn't see any Sudanese actors at that table, neither civilian nor civil society, which in itself raised questions. And I think it did set high ambitions for itself. Unfortunately, there wasn't any, the consensus that we expected from those actors, those 20 foreign secretaries or the representatives in London. So, you know, there was, you know, wasn't supposed to be a pledging conference. Money was pledged.

But unfortunately, sometimes when the political piece is not, doesn't come together as expected, you know, the pledges come almost as a sort of, I suppose, a peace offering, if you'll allow the expression. Unfortunately, you know, that pledge from the UK is welcome, as funding always is. Unfortunately, the Sudan Humanitarian Responsibility Plan is 13%, you know% filled at the UN level. And so, the UK can do its bit, but really what we need to see is funding scaled up much more to not just fill that pot,

but make sure it goes to the actors, the local responders, those who are working on the ground, who don't normally see UN funding. And of course, with the abrupt withdrawal of USID funding we have lots of mutual aid groups including the emergency response rooms that are in dire straits since. So essentially you know funding is always welcome it does need to be concerted we do need it scaled up and flexed to local actors so

that it's sustainable and flexible funding but also we need to see more progress on not just the political piece but the protection piece and that's where sexual violence is really falling flat. It's a really difficult time though Eva, I'm sure for you to be able to get the attention that you believe it deserves. We know that Gaza is in the headlines, we know that Ukraine is in the headlines, even defense spending for example this morning. How can you capture that attention? Do you think an open letter is going to do it? We're certainly hoping so. And I think what letters do, you know, in sort of advocacy

campaigns is it shows that people care, it shows that people are watching. And those are two important ways to signal to government that this issue is not going away. Not only Sudan, the world's largest humanitarian hunger displacement and protection crisis and needs dealing with, you know, just for the scale, as well as the regional impact, but it's going to impact on regional security in the region. It's going to impact, you know, the attention, the funding that is available on, you is available with the UN, multilateral, as well as impact UK spending. We've already seen a cut announced by 2027 in the UK, and that in itself is causing a lot of concern for a lot of protected crises and possibly new ones that we might see by 2027. So I think, yes, absolutely, bringing attention shows that something is not going away.

It still matters. And the more eyes, not just in terms of numbers, but let's say the profile, the celebrities that have signed on, heads of UK organisations, this is not going away. The UK public is taking more of an interest. The Sudanese diaspora in the UK and around the world are going to continue advocating and fighting for this. Eva Kaur, campaigner and founder of Women for Sudan and Sudan Transnational Consortium, one of the signatories of the letter that we've been discussing. Thank you so much. I'm joined now by the flat racing jockey Holly Doyle, who has just surpassed the record set by her hero, Hayley Turner, who recently bowed out of the sport. At Ascot in May, Holly had her 1023rd win, becoming Britain's most winning

female jockey of all time. Now, horse racing is rare among sports in that male and female jockeys compete equally against one another. In Holly's case, that can even mean going up against her own husband, fellow jockey Tom MacRand. According to the British Horse Racing Authority here are some of the figures where women currently make up less than 15% of the professional jockey population. So small numbers indeed. I do know that horse racing can be a controversial issue for some. Let me welcome Holly to Women's Hour. Hi Holly, good to have you with us. Morning, thanks for having me. So this milestone victory that you have had, when you saddled up that day in May, was it in your sights? Was that the thing you were thinking about?

To be honest, not really. I surpassed the thousand winners, so that was kind of I'd surpassed the thousand winners. So that was kind of the aim really for a while. And it wasn't really on my radar to surpass Haley's tally, but obviously when I did it caught quite a lot of attention. Definitely. So no, it was nice and Haley and I are real good friends. So she retired a few weeks before she's gonna have a baby. So I suppose she, you know, it was good timing, really.

Yeah, definitely. Maybe slightly annoying for her that she had just retired and then her record was beaten. But what is your tally now? I'm on a thousand and thirty something at the moment, and hopefully there's another 1,000 under the bonnet that we'll have to see. That's amazing though, those figures.

Do you keep count? Is it something after each race, each ride? Not really. We compete every day, seven days a week and ultimately it's my job to ride when there's time. I'm just trying to keep the ball rolling and do as well as I can. Well you talk about just even alluding to your schedule there, your husband, as I mentioned

a fellow jockey, has described you as relentless, do you think that's a fair characterisation? Possibly, yeah. Yeah I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing but it's worked out okay so far. I think it's probably necessary if you're going to be top of your game like you are. What is your schedule like? I often wonder what does it take to be a top jockey? Yeah, I suppose the word Tom used was relentless, which is a pretty good way to describe it. So for all jockeys really it's tough. Like I said we race seven days a week, we don't just turn up on the Saturdays and not at the big meetings, we're at Red Cars and Es on a Monday or Tuesday so obviously we have to work in the mornings, ride work on the horses, on the gallops to get them fit and try and, you know, get the rides in the afternoons.

Obviously, we have day racing and evening racing and 80% of the time these days is night racing. The last races can be up to nine o'clock at night. So yeah, you're back at 11 or 12 and back up at five in the morning. Yeah, so it's pretty crazy. When do you sleep? When I can really, as soon as I get home, it's head down and do it all again the next day. I've been doing it since I was very young, so I don't really know any different, which probably helps. You know, I read an article with you, Holly, that said, I never relax.

You make yourself very vulnerable. Talk me through that a little bit. Do you really not relax? I suppose I'd never relax. I don't have time to relax. I'm a bit better these days, but there are no off days, like I said, for me, and I find it hard to find the time physically to do anything other than have my mind on riding horses, which it's my life really.

I know it's my job, but yeah, it's my life. You mentioned Hayley, of course, who retired and sometimes it can be quite a young age that somebody does retire compared to other careers. Do you think about that or do you think about a life after racing? To be honest I find it quite hard to think about that. I'm 28 and I've got plenty of goals I'd love to try and achieve but obviously that you know I'm hopefully I've got quite a bit more time in the saddle. Hayley's quite a lot older than me. So it's something that I probably should think about but at the moment I'm a bit too head down and getting on with it.

And that's all right, literally head down. What are some of the goals? I think if you asked any jockey to be champion, jockey would be at the top of anyone's list. So that would be at the top of my list. I'd love to write a British classic. I've had a European one. I've won the French Oaks, but it wasn't a British one. So that would be nice. So that is one of the titles that you are looking for. And being a female jockey, as I mentioned,

it's one of the few sports that men and women are competing directly with one another. What's it like? Well, I'm really lucky because I was born into racing really. My parents weren't racing themselves. So I stepped into the sport without having me being a female jockey on my mind. So I was kind of blindsided by that. I think it's the best way to be really, you know, we're so lucky that we have equal pay. And if you're good enough, you do get the opportunity. There's only there are less female jockeys, but that's because there are less female females wanting to be jockeys, which is understandable

because it's quite a brutal career, isn't it? You know, the falls and whatever. But yeah, I never let that kind of stop me. Yeah, and maybe it's changing as well, as we know, with like Rachel Blackmore, who is not a flat race jockey, but she kind of had the profile of the sport. You obviously have this record as well and you kind of need people to see people to actually think about doing it so it might be that things change. Do you feel them changing at all? Yeah definitely I think when Rachel won the Grand National especially over jumps you know it's definitely harder for females to

break through and she won the Grand National and I just think what more do people want to see, you know, given the opportunity women can ride, you know, just as, you know, on equal terms as men and I think she kind of closed the conversation down. I thought, I feel like if you're good enough the opportunities will come. Obviously you need quite a lot of luck along the way. Which you've had as well, but mainly as everybody says, she's just a really good jockey and that is Holly Doyle. Thank you so much for joining us on Woman's Hour, who she just recently surpassed the record of her hero, Hayley Turner. She has her 1023rd win, becoming Britain's

most winning female jockey of all time. Lots of you getting in touch. Here's one about sex. We've had a text message about Tuesday sex saying, just celebrated 40 years of marriage yesterday, both in our 60s and after a busy few days, both feeling pretty exhausted, our day was a fairly early night and a face to face cuddle that ended in sleep. In other words, we've been together so long our intimacy doesn't have to involve sex as an ending. Don't get me wrong, we still have an active sex life

despite our kids thinking we're too old. Keep them coming 84844 if you'd like to get in touch on anything you've heard so far today. Now, after three years, just three years on the market, the supermodel Hailey Bieber has sold her makeup company road to Elf Beauty. This is a deal worth up to one billion dollars. The 28 year old now joins a list of other celebrities such as Rihanna, Selena Gomez, Kylie Jenner. They've all made millions from their cosmetic companies. But just how involved are they in the creation of those products?

Are they worth the hype? And do you ultimately need a recognisable name to make it big in the makeup business now? Well, joining me to discuss all things beauty is the beauty director for The Telegraph, Sonia Harriot. Welcome. And celebrity makeup artist and judge on the BBC series Glow Up Val Garland. Welcome to you both. Hello. Thank you for having us. Good to have both of you. Okay, Sonia, let's start. This deal, I just mentioned it in broad strokes there that Hayley has signed. Tell us a little bit more about it. So it's a phenomenal achievement after only three years in the market. Hayley is still staying on

as Chief Creative Officer for the brand and head of innovation because that's really what people want, I think. But the deal with E.L.F., E.L.F. has this amazing kind of power to really scale up a brand. So while R.O.D.E. is quite a small brand, it only has 10 products. It's a very streamlined makeup company. The real potential, I think, that E.L.F. have identified is the fact that, you know, Haley's captured this real essence of where makeup is moving at the moment, this kind of skincare, beauty hybrid, and they've got the opportunity now

to really get it out into big retailers globally. So E.L.Ff currently themselves are in you know boots in lots of retailers across the country and Rode is launching into Sephora later this year so it's much more accessible and they've got the potential to really grow that offering from 10 to dozens and dozens. And I suppose Hayley she's had her TikToks and Instagram of her doing her makeup. So kind of the run up, shall we say to that. Vivald, what do you think about this?

Do you have to have a famous face or a famous person at the head of a beauty brand to be a success these days? Well, obviously it helps, but in my opinion, our audience today are so far advanced as consumers. We want products that we know will work and give us the bang for our buck. So you can put a celebrity at the top of a brand, but the product's got to work. Because there's the various celebrities that I'm talking about here, ones that were known for whatever it might be as a model or a reality star, et cetera, then there's the celebrity makeup artists

who I'm speaking to right now, for example, and do celebrity makeup artists reach for the celebrity named product in their makeup bag? I think yes. If the product is good enough, everybody, well I think mostly everybody, has got some Charlotte Tilbury in their bag. They might have a Lisa Eldridge product, a lipstick perhaps. You know, you're probably going to have, oh gosh what's her name, Sienna. Sienna Gomez's Rare Beauty. I mean there are some cult products on the market that everybody's reaching for now and that's because they work. But I think with the numbers, there's not

Selena Gomez, but the others, they wear makeup artists first. And I wonder, does any makeup artist like Charlotte Tilbury, just to, for example, to name one, feel that pop stars, models, etc. are elbowing in on their territory? It's too late for that. It's too late for that. That was kind of like 20 years ago. If you have a great product now, you can be a success. And everyone's a makeup artist.

Blame YouTube when people started doing makeup in their bedrooms. Like, you have young TikTokers who have perhaps never left their bedroom. They are famous and they have, you know, famous brands. I mean, you know, somebody that I've worked with quite a bit, Mitchell, he's got an incredible makeup brand, but he is he's very young, you know, and he sort of like started his brand on TikTok. So social media, TikTok, has a lot to answer for. Has changed the rules. But Sonia, who do you think, for example, the likes of Hayley's or others, who are they

trying to reach? Is it that younger demographic? I certainly think for Hayley's key audience, it is that younger. It's that younger girl who's not really... What age are we talking? I'd say Gen Alpha, Gen Z. So girls under the age of 30, it's, you know, it's makeup for everyone. But I think the people that she really appeals to are into that sort of clean girl aesthetic. Which is really skincare focused. They want their skin to look super glazed and hydrated. They want just little touches of makeup. It's the girl that has just been to a former Pilates and she comes out with her green juice looking really fresh.

And that's the aesthetic, I think, that Rode is so different to the makeup artist and the celebrity brands from 10 years ago, which was so focused on these great, enormous eyeshadow palettes that you sort of needed a science degree to work out how to use, and the real kind of makeup artist products that sometimes are really difficult for consumers to understand how to use. And I think Wear Road really sort of has, it's captured that real ease of makeup. It's not the most long lasting, it's, you know, it's not the most inventive when it comes to the product offering but I

think that's not the point. It's more selling a look and a lifestyle. A lifestyle. How involved do we know are celebrities like Kylie Jenner, Selena Gomez, Rihanna or Hailey in their brands? Rihanna or Hayley in their brands? I think it definitely varies. I think where the celebrity really sort of captures at the beginning is the need and well, I mean, there's never really a need for any more makeup, but they capture. Some might disagree. Exactly.

They capture what their audience wants. So they really have a real understanding of what products do their readers, sorry, do their followers really want to capture. But whether or not three years or five years down the line, they're still part of that innovation. I know with Haley's brand in particular, she's now going to be in charge of the innovation

at Elf for Rhodes so I like to think that she's probably still very going to be very involved. It's amazing how many fingers people can have in so many pies shall we say with the merchandising side of it as well as everything else but Val you know it is interesting that point that Sonia brings up who they are targeting it towards. I mean, do you see these celebrity brands targeting ever towards the older woman? I think the older woman is a given anyway. Really?

Yeah, I do. I think... Explain that to me a little bit. A more mature woman perhaps has a better paycheck. So, you know, she can, she, they, them, they can have access to the product. So, yeah, it's all about hype, you know, and I, but it's been all about hype. Or do you think, I mean, I can't believe the revolution that I've seen in the makeup world since I was a teenager for example and I'm in my 50s now, I feel you almost can't escape it now even if you want it to. Now maybe that's the way I'm being marketed to. in the marketing and today more than ever products in the drugstore are so, so good that they are accessible to anyone. And if you look back in history, whatever was happening

for the youth culture, that was what took off. And it's no different today with kind of like Instagram and TikTok. You know, if it if your product goes viral on TikTok, you're a winner. You're away. Let us leave it there. Val Garland, Sonia Haria, thank you both so much for coming in studio. I need to let people know that tomorrow we have Miss Tina Knowles, the mother of Beyonce, Solange and also her bonus daughter, as she calls her Kelly Rowland. She's joining me here in the Woman's Studio, Woman's Hour Studio. I'll have to put my makeup on. Thanks for joining me.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hi, I'm India Rackerson and I want to tell you a story. It's the story of you. In our series, Child from BBC Radio 4, I'm going to be exploring how a fetus develops and is influenced by the world from the very get-go. Then in the middle of the series we take a deep look at the mechanics and politics of birth, turning a light on our struggling maternity services and exploring how the impact of birth on a mother affects us all. Then we're gonna look at the incredible feat of human growth and learning in the first 12 months of life.

Whatever shape the journey takes, this is a story that helps us know our world. Listen on BBC Sounds.