Woman's Hour - 03/06/2025

Episode Date: June 3, 2025

Women's voices and women's lives - topical conversations to inform, challenge and inspire.

BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. Hello, this is Newla McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. We have Tina Knowles this morning for her first UK radio interview about her new memoir, Matriarch. She has been a driving force in the success of her daughters, Beyonce and Solange, and also Kelly Rowland, whom she calls her bonus daughter.

Her life story and her family history are extraordinary. I'm really looking forward to welcoming her to the Women's Hour Studio this morning. But what about that word matriarch? Does that describe you? When did you take on that mantle and what does it require? Or perhaps it's someone else in your family. Who is it and what do they do for your family? And also making it open on however you define that word family. You can text the

program the number is 84844 on social media or at BBC Women's Hour or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note the number is 03700 100 444. Now Tina Knowles has been quite the entrepreneur she'd probably have a few thoughts and tips for We Innovate that is the UK's first university network for women entrepreneurs yeah the very first so we're going to hear about that during the hour. And also today, why does Northern Ireland, unlike the rest of the UK, not have any specialist mother and baby units for new mothers that are suffering from severe postpartum mental health issues? We're going to hear the details on that story as well coming up.

But let us begin with the new search that has been launched in Portugal by police investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann. Madeleine was just three years old when she vanished while on holiday with her family in the resort of Praia da Lute in May 2007. Her disappearance sparked a Europe-wide police investigation and it's one of the most high-profile unsolved missing person cases. German detectives are now leading the search as they suspect she was murdered by a man who's currently in prison in Germany. Our BBC correspondent Daniel Sanford is in Praia de Luz right now. He's out by the search and I spoke to him just before we

came on air. I started by asking Daniel what details we know about this new search. Well it's focused on an area of scrubland that is along the coast between Lagos and Praia do Luz. Praia do Luz of course being the holiday resort where Madeleine McCann went missing back in May 2007, more than 18 years ago. What we're seeing this morning is Portuguese police guarding the two roads that lead down into that scrubland. So we're on a road where the holiday villas are set back from the sea, and the Portuguese police are preventing access down into the scrubland.

And what we've seen down there is a large blue tent, which German police seem to be using as a base. And we've seen four German police vehicles driving in there this morning and a Portuguese fire engine. And that's because the search seems to be focused on bits of private land in this area, particularly bits which have disused buildings, wells, water tanks, and things like that. And that's, we were told that fire engines might indeed be involved in the search, and we've seen that they are. And what the German police have got is permission from the Portuguese

prosecutors, essentially search warrants, to go onto private land and scour the private land looking for any trace of Madeleine McCann or of course any evidence as to what may have happened to her. So traces or evidence is what they're looking for. But what about the timing of the search, Daniel? Well, there have been many searches here, of course, before for Madeline McCann. At the time of her disappearance, British police have come back here several times. And German police, once they'd taken the lead with their main suspect,

had searched a reservoir some distance from here where that suspect was known to frequent. But we think that the reason for the timing of this search is that the timing is coming through ahead in terms of Christian Bruckner, the suspect's detention in prison, because he's being held in prison having been convicted of the sexual assault of an elderly American woman in prior to losing in 2005, so two years before Madeleine McCann disappeared. But that prison sentence comes to an end officially in September, though there's an outstanding fine that he hasn't paid.

That might keep him in prison until early 2026. But essentially, German police have got six months or perhaps a little bit more to bring a charge against their main suspect otherwise he will walk free and we think that's the reason for the timing of these searches rather than because they've got any very specific intelligence though I guess if they did have any specific intelligence they would necessarily tell us. Yes and have they said that about their suspect that the timing is connected to it?

They have. The the prosecutors in Braunschweig who are leading the investigation with the German police doing the investigating for them have started to express clear concerns about the amount of time they've got left. And that's not without basis because the suspect's lawyers have also said, well, if you don't charge him, then he's going to disappear. So it's fairly clear that unless a charge is brought against him, he has the intention to disappear as a free man. So definitely timing is becoming more and more part of the discussion. One of the problems for the prosecutors in Braunschweig is that they did put their suspect

Christian Bruckner on trial for a series of sexual assaults in the Algarve, but he was acquitted last year so that means that the time that they thought they had if he had been guilty of those crimes has disappeared so it does mean that they they are slightly running out of options. And Bruckner has repeatedly denied any involvement in this crime related to Madeleine McCann. You mentioned it's 18 years and last month was the 18th anniversary of her disappearance. Her parents have said in a statement that their determination to leave No Stone Unturned is unwavering.

Have they spoken out at all about this latest development? They haven't and that's been the pattern in recent years. They haven't wanted to comment on every single element. I think it would just become completely exhausting for them and would dominate their lives. Don't forget, Madeline McCann had a younger brother and sister, so there is a family life as well. But I think what tends to happen with these is that the British police you do the liaison with the McCann family will Be told we'll keep them informed well in advance of it getting into the

Bliquorina and they'll be kept informed that we wouldn't expect them to give us what a blow-by-bow Update on what they feel about the latest developments in the investigation They will be being told what's going on, but they won't be commenting publicly and those quotes that you were given were ones that were released around the time of the 18th anniversary of her disappearance rather than being linked in any way to this search. But it's fair that Madeleine McCann, it was her 22nd birthday last week, last month as well, as being the 18th anniversary of her disappearance because she was just about to turn four when she disappeared. So you can imagine what that does to a family

every year around the anniversary of her disappearance but also her birthday. It was of course one of the most high profile cases of a missing child that we've seen that that continues to stay in the public consciousness and I think had a huge impact on parents of young children at that time. How do you understand the continued fascination with it Daniel? There are a couple that everybody could relate to going on holiday to the Mediterranean with their young children it just felt like something that lots and lots and lots of people themselves experienced and then mixed in with that the absolute first thing that could possibly happen you you go back to the room where your child is asleep and they're gone happen, you go back to the room where your child is asleep and they're gone. And you can imagine that most people, they might have those little moments of, oh, where's

my child? But that gets resolved very, very quickly. But it's more than 18 years and it still hasn't been resolved. And I think that is what has meant that this stays in people's consciousness so much. And of course, it's not just people in the UK, it's absolutely huge headline news in America, across Europe. And here this morning, of course, the Portuguese media are very, very much in evidence, but it's a story which has huge resonance worldwide. I think it's just every parent's worst nightmare.

BBC correspondent Daniel Sanford. There'll be more on that story on the BBC throughout the day. Now, Tina Knowles, the mother of icons, Beyonce Knowles-Carter, Solange Knowles and bonus daughter Kelly Rowland. She has just published her memoir, Matriarch. It's already reached number one on the New York Times bestseller list. We are so happy to have her for her first UK radio interview this morning. Matriarch tells the story of how a resilient little girl born in difficult times

became a powerhouse guiding her daughters to their potential and also how she, the great granddaughter of enslaved women, went from what she describes as a little two-bedroom poorhouse with seven people in Galveston in Texas to being the head of one of the most successful and high-profile families in the world. You are known to most as Miss Tina. Welcome to the program. Thank you. I'm happy to be here. I feel like I know your voice already so well because I listened to your book over 17 hours, this extraordinary story of your life and your family's history. Were you or any of your family concerned about putting your private stories into the public sphere? Well, for me, absolutely. That's why it took me so long to do the book. I'm 71 and I'm just now

doing it. And I've had many offers before, but I was always worried about telling someone else's story. And my story is so interwoven with my children. And I just finally just decided that it was actually my story. And they happen to be in my story from my perspective. And so I did give their parts to them, my children, to make sure that I didn't tread on anything that they didn't feel comfortable talking about. And they were, they actually gave it back to me with no changes, which was pretty surprising. We hear their beautiful voices at the beginning of the audiobook as well, or written of course in the book.

It is entitled Matriarch, which I mentioned. I'm also throwing it out to our listeners this morning if they're matriarchs, if they want to talk about the matriarch in their life. What does it mean to be a matriarch? To be a leader in your family, to be the person who everyone calls when there is a problem or when there is some great news. I'm the first one usually that they call. And just to help, you know, as a matriarch, you are kind of the fixer.

And we were talking earlier about the fact that I think that my mother saw that in me very early because they have all these stories about me protecting, you know, the underdogs, even my older brothers, my nephew. And I think she thought that I could handle it. And she kind of groomed me a bit to be a matriarch. Because what Miss Teane and I were speaking about just before we came on air is, you know, who is the person that becomes the matriarch? What qualities do they need? And when is that mantle passed down? But as you say, from little badass teeny bee, as you were known, like even at five,

six years of age, of which you go into great detail in the memoir, you were this feisty, resilient little girl. Yes. Where did that come from? Well, I think it came from the fact that my parents were 44 when they had me and they were tired. They had raised seven kids and six kids at that point and I got to really speak freely. I got to ask why not or why and I was just very outspoken. And I realized that it saved me because, you know, the nuns, I went to this Catholic school where my parents, I found out later, bartered for me to go to. And I didn't understand why we were so poor, but I was at this private school. And the nuns, you know, felt like I didn't belong there. So I had to fight them from a very early age. At five, I became a warrior.

And I would talk back, and I wouldn't allow certain things in my psyche. And that is why I was able to make it through that. You made it from those first days, but I mean, they were harrowing experiences that you had at the School of Holy Rosary, that you describe a very restrictive and cruel at times upbringing within that particular sphere. It didn't stop you, obviously, and perhaps gave you more ammunition to push back, but you are very much in contrast to your mother, Agnes, that you speak about. Who was fearful? Yeah, she was fearful of everything. I mean, in the outside world, she had been through such trauma in her life. And of course, as a kid,

I knew these things, but I didn't associate it with trauma. So I didn't understand why she was not this person who was, you know, fighting back. I felt like she wasn't fighting back. But I found out later in life that she was in her own way. But it was a very quiet, she was very soft spoken, and very kind. So sometimes people kind of pushed her around. So it made me angry as a little kid. I was like, I'm never going to be like that. So I always had my du angry as a little kid and I was like I'm never going to be like that. So I always had my dukes up, you know, I was ready to fight all the time.

That's the picture I had as I heard your voice telling these stories and I really think that your book is the story of the experiences of the black girl and the black woman in America in recent history. Yes, I absolutely believe because I grew up with such racism and just restrictive ideas, you know, in society. And so I always felt like I had to fight back. And I'm still to this day, my kids say to me all the time, mama, put your dukes down. You know, you don't have to fight all the time. But I'm just always hyper aware of anything that's going on. Well, let's talk about this because let's talk about your foremothers. The line of female

ancestors in your life, and I should tell our listeners that there's this beautiful mother tree that you have which goes through your family. But your great, great grandmother, Rosalie, was enslaved. Your great grandmother, Celestine, also who gave birth to ten children with a man who was an enslaver, and that included Odelia, who gave birth to your mother, Agnes. So this is very recent history and it makes your present seem all the more extraordinary. How did knowing those stories affect you growing up? I think, you know, when I think back on that, I just wonder if that did have something to do with the fact that I was always, you know, fighting and fighting to do better, fighting

to protect my family. And I think it did. It was subliminal, maybe. I didn't make the connection. Really, I didn't make the connection of my great-grandmother's child. I was doing this book. And just how amazing that was for them to keep their families together, being enslaved.

They kept their kids with them. Can you imagine what that took for them to keep their families together, being enslaved. They kept their kids with them. Can you imagine what that took for them back in that time? And how that legacy subliminally was instilled in me to fight and to keep my family together. Because that is the most important thing for me in life is to, you know, as long as I have my family, I feel like I could lose everything and I would be just fine. And what a family it is, this huge, sprawling number of people that continues to grow, and some of them, of course, on the global stage as well. I just think that trajectory, if

we think back to Rosalie or some of your foremothers, it's quite extraordinary. One of your very early stories that you tell was when you asked your mother about your surname. And a lot of these stories take place under the pecan tree in the garden. So Beyonce, which, of course, we know as your daughter. But this was a surname often spelled differently for each of the seven children, including yourself. Tell us a little bit about that because it intersects with racism. Yes, it does. Well, the name is originally spelled B-O-Y-A-N-C-E. And when my parents came to Texas, they had the spelling somehow of B-E-Y-I-N-C-E. And then when we enrolled in school, whatever our birth

certificate said, that is what you become, you know, in school. And I remember asking my mom, because my brother was teaching me how to write my name, and he said, oh no, your name is spelled differently. And I said, why? And he said, I don't know. And so I asked my mom, and she said I said, why? And he said, I don't know. And so I asked my mom and she said that whatever your birth certificate said in the hospital, that's what you went by. And I said, well, why didn't you make them change it? And she said, well, I did try once. And the nurse told me, be happy that you got a birth certificate. Because, you know, my other brothers and sisters, other than me and my youngest brother, they were all born in a colored hospital. And so they, they, I'm sure that they had no rights. Like, you know, we didn't care enough to correct it.

So the names are all very different, which was embarrassing for us as kids. You know, my brother's name was B-E-Y-I-N-C-E. One brother's name was B-U-Y-I-N-C-E, and my name was B-E-Y-O-N-C-E, which is where Beyonce's name came from. And where, maybe you'd like to share with our listeners, where you got the inspiration to call your daughter that name? Well, because there were no boys. We have one boy to carry on the name and thank God he's had a son named Avenue Beyonce, which is so cool. But we didn't have any boys. And so I thought it was a gift to my father to name her Beyonce. And I thought he

would be happy. But of course he said, that baby's going to be mad at you because you named him a last name. And I'm like, nobody knows it's the last name, but us. Could you imagine what that word then became? Oh my god and the fact that my dad did not get to see that and my mom didn't get to see their name just everywhere even though you know spelling is different yeah who would have thought that that name would be you know a household word now? Completely. Your father I was very touched when you read about, you know, your father being given birthday cards and he used to be kind of playing with people, seeing if there was cash in them, you know, shaking them out and then throwing the card over the shoulder and you were a little

girl and you were kind of annoyed that he wasn't paying attention, reading the cards that you had put so much love and thought and care and attention into writing but then you found out that he could not read or write and it was so heartbreaking because I was maybe about 13 or 14 before I found out and my sister said oh girl daddy can't read or write and I was like oh my god and then I felt so terrible because I used to be so mad at him for not reading my cards. And you know the fact that my mom just kept it a secret because she always wanted us to respect my dad. And you know it didn't cause shame in me because I was old enough but I'm sure if I had found out younger I would probably have not had the respect that I should have had for my dad.

When I read about your dad, I felt he worked so hard. Oh, he did. He worked hard and he was an orphan. His mom died at six and the new woman in his father's life didn't want him. And so he was like farmed out to all of the sisters and brothers and back then kids were work horses. So he just didn't have a lot of, I mean I can understand why he didn't go to school because they wanted him to work, you know he started working at six. And but you came from those modest upbringings. Yes.

To now being this powerhouse for want of another term. There's so many ways I could describe it. And we're very familiar with your daughters. But you were forging that path anyway. You were a hairstylist. You opened your own salon called Headliners. How appropriate. Oh, yeah. I mean, and I didn't even know that.

I thought about that because I wanted it to be a place that everyone was a star. And so it kind of had that showbiz feel, feel, but that was not the big intention. It was just for everyone to be important. Let's talk about your daughters for a moment. And I know you very much want to give equal billing to your daughters as well. Of course, I saw Solange was more focused on school.

She kind of wanted this structured life. Beyonce instead was more of a free spirit and didn't mind what time the Meal Times came out, for example. Tell us a little bit about Solange. Well, you kind of got told off for not for not sending them to school or letting them stay off school and having a beach day one day. Yes. And she said, what kind of parent doesn't want their kids go to school? What kind of parent doesn't want their kids to make A's and B's? And I'm like, I would love for you to make A's and B's, but if you don't, I'm okay with it. And so she just needed more structure. Kids are

very different. And you have to respect the differences and try to encourage them, you know, and treat them as individuals. She's such an artist. She's such an artist. She is art. I tell her all the time. The way she dresses, the way she talks, the way she moves, everything about her is art, I tell her all the time. The way she dresses, the way she talks, the way she moves, everything about her is art. And she continues to do it in traditionally white-dominated areas, breaking down barriers, creating music.

That's very important to her and it always has been since she was a little kid because I tried to teach them all the time that you belong anywhere you choose to be and so her life's work has been breaking barriers and so so is Beyonce's, you know, she has Quietly Just broken a lot of barriers, you know, she's not as vocal as Solange is about it, but she just does it in art. Which might surprise people, anyone who has watched Beyonce on stage, they might be surprised with her as a little girl. She was a shy girl. And, you know, was trying to find her voice perhaps in school, but with great difficulty.

But I think she was about seven when she was, and I'll put it in inverted commas, discovered. Yes, because her dance teacher entered her into a contest with all the parochial schools. Because ironically, she went to a Catholic school as well. But she won this contest and we were like blown away because we knew she could sing because that's all she did was sing and write little songs when she was like six. But I was just put her in dance class because she was shy. But I have to say that it's a complicated thing because she was shy around strangers because she always

checked them out and studied people before she, but once she got comfortable with you, she was so outgoing and she was so outgoing with us, but then she would go to school or go to somewhere else and be, you know, kind of shy and laid back. And she's still pretty much that way today. I don't know if I would call it shy, but she is not the belle of the ball. She's reserved. She's very reserved and she checks people out. She's still checking them out, just fill them out before she is her, you know, to be comfortable. Yeah, yeah. It must be quite something though to see. I've been lucky enough to go to some Beyonce's shows and I have another one coming up Thursday week. Very exciting here in London.

I don't even know how to put it into words if you haven't been there. It's like an out of body experience, the most expansive, alternate universe experience. That little shy seven year old and that woman, can you, I don't know, understand that the two are the same person? Yes, I think that is why on the stage is such a dynamic show, because I think that she gets out of herself and she becomes

this other being. It's amazing because Oprah and Gayle came to the dressing room the last tour, and they were like, oh my God, all these kids running around, because it had to be 10 or 12 kids playing hide and seek and, you know, just normal everyday things, very, very down to earth, no, no diva behavior, just, just, you know, she's down there wiping her kids nose on the floor. And they were like, this is so normal. And that is why I think she can be this artist, because on stage is almost like a whole nother persona. And then she comes off stage and she's the most normal person you ever see and and that's not always the case with people. No, I mean you have been there I suppose which will have been a

great anchor, a stabilizing force from when they were little girls. Yes. You know whether it was Destiny's Child, I mentioned Kelly Rowland who I didn't realize moved in with your family from the time she was 11. Yeah, which is incredible. This other daughter you talk about as a gift from God. But you were so forward thinking because as Solange and Beyonce were growing up, Beyonce obviously becoming more of a star. You sent them to therapy because you were like, I want these sisters to be close. Yes. Well, it wasn't that she was more of a star because neither one of them was stars. They were kids.

Beyonce was like maybe 11 and she had gotten in this group and, you know, at the age of 11, I think that's when 10 or 11 and then the other sister is 5. The little sister that's 5 is all in your business. She's all in your stuff and, you know, that's five is all in your business, she's all in your stuff. And, you know, they go through a period where they are, they were so tight and then all of a sudden these other kids came and they were rehearsing every day and Beyoncé was getting irritated by her and being a little rude to Solange. And Solange was a character, you know, she was tough. But I didn't like the division with them,

and I didn't like her not protecting her sister from the other kids, because the other kids would say, be quiet, Solange, get out of here, Solange, because Solange was trying to do choreography, she was trying to pick out the outfits, she was the little manager. And they would kind of be mean to her,

and it terrified me, because my thing that I've always had with my girls, all three of them, and Angie was you guys stick together and no matter who else tries to come between you, you don't let anyone come between you because you are a unit, you are a family. And it continues, I was watching a great video last night of Solange on the side of Beyonce's show when Blue Ivy came out dancing and she was going for it. And I was like, here, I'm about to speak to this woman who has this incredible history of her ancestors. And I see the next generations that

are there as well, including Blue, Rumi, Sir, also Jules, Solange's child, that are already part of this expansive family. I mean, is there a trick to raising these confident women? No, I just think that it doesn't come by osmosis. You have to tell your kids, you have to reinforce their value and the strengths that they have, focus on the strengths and not the differences and try to make them, fit them in one mold. I think that's the best advice I think I could give is that look at your kids as individuals. My mom was great at that. A lot of things I didn't like, you know, the way she did things. But I remember my sister had eight children. And so she would say, Lena, Denise, Tommy, Ronnie.

She, you know, she would call them all their names because, I mean, think about having eight stair-step kids. And my mom would say, Selena, don't do that. You know, you have to take slow down and take your time. Don't ever mix them up. And as I got older, I really appreciated that about my mother because she knew all of her kids were different and they had different needs.

And you know, in the intro of the book, Solange says, thank you for seeing that we had different needs and taking us to three different schools, which is super hard. Flying around while they pick up, yeah. Yeah, and so it was that I know that they needed different things. And so you do what you have to do to make them individual and celebrate, you know, their differences rather than saying, you have to be like your sister or your brother. And next, what's next? Oh, next is,

you know, I'm on the tour. I always help with Beyonce's tours with the wardrobe. Of course, that's what you're famous for. And I enjoy it, because that's me getting to create and do what I love doing. I still do hair. Yes, hair is beautiful. Yeah, I love to do hair on other people in sacred. So we have a test salon.

And I don't know, I'm 71 years old, and I feel freer than I've ever felt in my life. Let us leave it on that joyous, uplifting message. So wonderful to meet you, have a blast on the tour. It's been so lovely to have you in, a real pleasure meeting you Miss Tina. I do want to let people know if you haven't got enough Miss Tina yet, she will be appearing on BBC One's one show this evening at 7pm. Her book is matriarch, a memoir. You can read it or listen to that beautiful Texan voice if you would like to as well,

because it's on an audiobook. Did you want to say something? Yeah, I just wanted to say that I will be Wednesday night interviewing with one of my favorite designers, Stella McCartney, at the Royal Festival Hall. And I hope you guys will come out and join us. A good night there as well. Thank you so much for joining us. Now, let me move on to Northern Ireland next. It is a place that doesn't have specialized mother and baby units to treat mums who are diagnosed with severe postnatal depression,

including postpartum psychosis. Instead, women are admitted to a general psychiatric ward. But when that happens their babies can't go with them and therefore they're separated. A BBC investigation has found that more than 100 mums in Northern Ireland are admitted to a general psychiatric ward each year where they will be among other men and women who have a range of complex mental health issues. These can be mixed wards. It's in stark contrast to mums in England, Scotland and Wales who when suffering from a maternal mental illness are admitted to a specialist mother and baby unit where they're treated alongside their baby.

We have spoken to people who have been in those places before. According to health professionals, it's a crucial situation for bonding between mum and baby and also those who are breastfeeding. BBC's Northern Ireland health correspondent, Mary Louise Connolly, has made a spotlight programme called Mums in Crisis about this and joins us. I will say some of the content you hear you may find upsetting. Good to have you with us, Mary Louise. I mean, it is very hard to think of mums being separated from their babies at this time when they're very vulnerable. Tell us about some of the mums you met making the program.

Yeah, good morning, Iolo. Well, we met mums from across Northern Ireland, from the city of Belfast to more rural areas. We met very brave women prepared to speak to us about very personal stories but they said they did so in the hope of helping one other woman. In fact, we discovered that one of the factors hampering recovery in this illness is that women think they are alone in experiencing postpartum psychosis. But clearly they aren't. I made this program with Denise O'Connor and I spoke to over a dozen women

affected by maternal mental illness. They all had either experienced severe postnatal depression in some cases postpartum psychosis. Now that's a rare condition where a mother suffers hallucinations depression can feel suicidal. It can happen prior to the woman having her baby and in the week, days and months after birth. It's triggered by hormones fluctuating. Usually a lack of sleep can be genetic.

And those here in Northern Ireland who were admitted to a general psychiatric ward said the staff did their best, but it was not the right environment. In fact, some described feeling like a prisoner. And that's what happened to Shelley Brown three years ago. She was in her early 30irties, a first time mum, and within days of getting home from hospital, Shelley's mental health deteriorated very quickly. She was diagnosed with postpartum psychosis just days after giving birth to daughter Ruby.

Her symptoms included suicidal thoughts, bad smells, which were hallucinations. That's something that we learned in the programme. But lack of sleep was a significant factor. Shelley became so ill, she was told she would have to go to hospital and be admitted onto a general psychiatric ward for a few days, alongside other mental health patients. But those five days turned into weeks.

I was a mother without a child and I felt like a prisoner and I felt like I couldn't leave and my confidence was just so low. And in all of this time Ruby was at home. How were you coping with that feeling? Every morning I woke up in that hospital. That was the hardest thing because I would realise that she wasn't there.

And I had to be reminded that I'd had a baby and she wasn't with me and I was in a mental facility and it just broke me every morning. Shelly says life's now is good and that positivity between her and her daughter is now captured in our programme spotlight. Well, unfortunately, Mary Louise, that hasn't always been the outcome for women in Northern Ireland, which is part of the case that you're trying to raise awareness. women in Northern Ireland, which is part of the case that you're trying to raise awareness. Yeah. And that brings us to the case of another young woman, Orla Quinn, and her postpartum psychosis developed within hours of having her daughter.

She gave birth in the Royal Jubilee Maternity Hospital in Belfast in 2018. It was her third birth. But it was her mum Siobhan who noticed things weren't quite right when she visited her daughter in hospital. I took the beauty and I said, Orla she's gorgeous, do you want me to feed her? And she was, she's gorgeous, look at her, look at her, there's something wrong with her. And I said, Orla, honest to God, there's not. So at that point I knew there was something way off. And she said, why are you all being so nice to me after what I've done? I've really damaged her and I was like, Orla, no, I said you're not well.

And sometimes this happens with a pregnancy, you're not well. I says, but look, I'm gonna sort it. Orla was seen by a psychiatrist and psychosis wasn't drilled out, but at no stage were Orla's family told about her condition or that it could change rapidly. A plan included her husband, Ciaran, staying with his wife and daughter overnight.

But when Karen woke in the early hours, his wife Orla was missing. Staff at the hospital didn't know where she'd gone. About an hour later, her body was found in a part of the hospital that's unused at night and Orla had taken her own life. Her mum Siobhan described Orla to us during the programme had taken her own life. Her mum Siobhán described Orla to us during the program as being her best friend. To go in and have a baby and come back out in a coffin and you have three children left without their mother and their father distraught. It's just not a position you think you'll ever ever

ever find yourself in, in a million years. Orla would have celebrated her 40th birthday last month but as we discovered instead of planning a party her parents took flowers to her grave instead. In 2022 an inquest concluded Orla's death had been foreseeable and preventable. The coroner said a mother and baby unit where Orla would have been expected to be treated if she lived elsewhere in the UK should be established in Northern Ireland but that was three years ago. It's such a distressing story I do want to let people know if they've been affected by any of the issues that we're hearing about. There's links on the woman's hour

website and also support on the BBC Action line. But with this, Mary Louise, what has the Belfast Health Trust said about particularly Orla's case? Yeah, they want to extend a sincere and unreserved apology to Orla's family and that its maternity team would like the opportunity to meet them to offer an apology in person. Also, they said they continue to be committed to learning from Orla's death and they've put in place a training program to help staff recognize the wider spectrum of perinatal mental health disorders. Is there an alternative however because I noticed with many of the mums they didn't want to go to hospital in Northern

Ireland because they didn't want to be separated from their baby? Yeah exactly and we have received some financial boosting in the past couple of years. We have postnatal community teams that work in the community. That means that mom and baby can be cared for at home. It is good, Nula, but it doesn't help those most severe cases. Community nurses have told us that it's not enough. They get around 250 referrals in each health trust a year. We have five health trusts in Northern

Ireland but they can only help around 70 women at a time so that means that some mums aren't being supported. So you mentioned there that there is you know interest in having a mother and baby unit but what is the political commitment at the moment? Yeah there's definitely interest. We've been talking about this in Northern Ireland since 2007. Seven health ministers have all said they would like a unit. At the moment there is a business case underway. It is months overdue. The Department of Health has told us in Northern Ireland that even when that business case is submitted and completed a unit will be subject to the finances being found. And people can catch your spotlight program, Mums in Crisis? Yes,

Mums in Crisis. It's on the BBC iPlayer right now and will be broadcast on BBC One this evening called Mums in Crisis at 10.40pm. Brilliant. Thank you very much. And that is Mary Louise, who has been following this story. But I do want to turn to another guest who is also here, Dr. Julie Anderson, a consultant perinatal psychiatrist and chair of the Royal College of Psychiatrists in Northern Ireland, who also features in the program. How concerned are you that there aren't these specialist units? Extremely concerned.

I suppose we can't really say it strongly enough. Mary Louise has summarised stuff really well there but actually just a small point I want to make while we do now have specialist perinatal community teams in Northern Ireland which is fabulous over the last few years and I work in one of those clinically. They're not a replacement for mother and baby unit, they're really sort of half of what a full perinatal service is so we only can provide that community support but not the acute inpatient support if a mum needs that. So what is that inpatient that people need that they won't get from somebody who's going

to their home? So essentially if somebody is so unwell that they need sort of daily mental health input then really they need acute psychiatric care and at the minute as Maira Louise has said in Northern Ireland the only option is one of the acute wards across one of our five trusts in Northern Ireland which is totally inappropriate for a new mum. How rare is postpartum psychosis which is some of the most severe mental health issues that Mary Louise was showing in her documentary? Yeah, so thankfully it's very rare so we know that roughly between one and two out of every 1,000 mums will develop a postpartum psychosis. However, we also know

that there's a smaller population of mums who are actually quite high risk of developing postpartum psychosis. So a mum who has had a previous postpartum psychosis herself, and that's the case even if it's been 10, 15 years ago, she's still actually sort of at a kind of one and two chance of it happening again with a subsequent baby. And also women who have a diagnosis of bipolar affective disorder, they are also at a sort of almost sort of one and two risk of developing a postpartum psychosis after having a baby. And again that's even if they've been stable and well for many years and could well have been completely discharged from mental health services.

So they are the women I suppose that we can, we have to rely on our maternity colleagues often sort of picking up women with that history and then referring them into the community perinatal teams. And then we can do a lot of work with those mums to monitor them, to try and do all that we can to reduce that risk and also work closely with family members as well and to be putting a plan in place soon after baby's born. You know, in my Louisa's program, we do see how devastated the mums are that were separated from their babies.

What does research tell us about that impact? So I suppose research is very clear that actually it's it's bad, putting it bluntly, for mum and baby at the time, but also it leads to poor sort of health outcomes much further down the line, both for mum and for the baby as they grow into childhood, adolescence and adulthood themselves. So they're more likely to have difficulties with their own mental health, have poor physical health outcomes. So I suppose this is some of the frustration that we have as clinicians working in PeriNatal in Northern Ireland that the evidence

is so clear that actually, you know, not having the right care and treatment in place for mums and babies at this crucial point in their life has not only potentially absolutely devastating, as we've heard already, implications for women if something really horrific happens, but also for those women that, you know, that, you know, much down the line, we know it's going to have negative impact for them and baby. Are you hopeful there will be a mother and baby unit in Warden Ireland? Oh, I talk a lot about hope in my life and I always try and find some hope to be perfectly honest. I'm not feeling hopeful that anything is going to happen anytime soon. As Mary Louise has said since 2007 this has been talked about in Northern Ireland by every single Health Minister. We know in England there's been mother and baby

units available from the late 50s actually. You know there's 22 units in the mainland in the UK but in Northern Ireland we seem to be very good at talking about things and not actually putting plans into action for the women that need it. We have had women on who have been patients at those units and talked about some of the friendships they forged as well that were very powerful stories coming from it. If somebody in our last minute is concerned about a new mother, what should they be looking for?

So I suppose it can be tricky in some ways because it is a time when anyone's physical health, mental health, emotional health is impacted. Absolutely. It's exhausting. I remember it well from several decades ago. It's exhausting. But really, if any mom is showing any kind of persistent change in her mood where she's feeling very down, very tearful and it's not settling, or indeed, actually, if her mood becomes too high and elated and she's having lots of energy and not able to sleep even if

baby's sleeping any kind of sort of experience in anything any kind of delusions where she's saying stuff that just doesn't make sense or experiencing things aren't real then really that's an emergency and it's a matter of getting hold of a GP whether that's in hours or out of hours or potentially having to go to the emergency department and waiting for a mental health assessment that day. Thank you very much. This is Dr. Julie Anderson, a consultant perinatal psychiatrist and chair of the Royal College of Psychiatrists in Northern Ireland. I also want to thank my colleague BBC Northern

Ireland health correspondent Mary Louise Connolly and her program Mums in Crisis will be on this evening as she mentioned. I do also just want to let you know that the business cases where Mary Louise was telling us about for the mother and baby unit is being developed by the Belfast Health and Social Care Trust it says in a statement it says it's well progressed however it says progression of the unit will remain subject to the necessary funding being identified that is from the Department of Health a statement that we got from them in Northern Ireland. Thanks for your messages coming in. Cheryl in

West Sussex, my mother was an amazing matriarch of our family she was a listening ear, wise counsel, disciplinarian, superb role model, she was the super glue that held us together in tough times, our reliable safe haven. She sadly died in February after 99.5 years on this planet. I am her eldest daughter and I've been told that I am now the family matriarch. I will never be my mum, but I see the role as a privilege and I will do my best.

I was talking to Miss Tina saying, she was saying, it's not well paid, it's all the hours, but you get the first phone call, whether it's good news or bad. 84844 if you'd like to get in touch. Now to entrepreneurship. but you get the first phone call whether it's good news or bad. 84844 if you'd like to get in touch. Now to entrepreneurship. Talking to Miss Tina earlier. Well tomorrow the Women and Equality Select Committee will hear from investors on female entrepreneurship to explore ways in which greater investment

can be unlocked for female led businesses. We know there's structural barriers that many women face when starting a new business. Less than 2% of venture capital private investors funding goes to women-only startups. That's according to government figures, a pretty small figure there. Imperial College London are working to address barriers through a program they run for women. It's called We Innovate. It gives women practical skills to figure out if their business idea has legs. They're now rolling this program out to four other universities. So this is the UK's first university network for women entrepreneurs, which I think is surprising

in itself that this is the first. I'm joined by head of the program Sarah Ranchev-Hale and also Dr. Olivia Ahn, a success story of the program who has invented the first certified flushable period pad, which will be launched in shops soon. Wonderful to have you both, welcome. Thank you. Let me start with you, Sarah. Why is this needed? I mean, I'm kind of surprised it's the first though.

Yeah, so there's been significant research done, as you mentioned, on some of the barriers to women entering entrepreneurship and a number of reviews and inquiries. So I'm really pleased to see this additional inquiry happening. But what we really need to see is some action. And that's where We Innovate comes in. So we launched We Innovate 11 years ago, and even back then,

I think the college knew that there was a gap and we were receiving fewer applications from women. So the program really has been designed to try and bridge some of those gaps. So women have reported that, or some of the reports have shown us that women have lower self-confidence in their entrepreneurial skills, even when they're equally qualified. And fear of failure is one third higher among women than men. Why is that? Well, I think some of it also is around role models.

So there was some research done in 2020 by Santander that showed that eight out of 10 young people couldn't name one female entrepreneur. So there are fewer role models out there for us to work towards and I mean entrepreneurship is fairly high risk. So we really see this program as supporting our entrepreneurs and indeed in the rollout into the other universities to give women a place to kind of de-risk that business as far as they can and decide what do you do to de-risk the business? So great question. We do a huge amount of work with them in terms of master classes and across a variety of different topics things like customer development, speaking to customers, what does the fundraising landscape look like,

prototyping and things like that, but we also give them a lot of one-to-one support. So a huge amount of work goes into leadership development skills, into presentation skills, into that piece around self-confidence to empower them to take that forward. Well, let me throw it over to Olivia. You know, what made you jump in? Well, it was, I saw a poster. I was, when I was at Imperial,

I was very much in my fourth year of medical school, heads down on the route to go into the NHS. And I saw a poster for a woman's entrepreneurship competition and I had that idea at the time for something different around period care. And so myself and my co-founder, we didn't know that this would start the journey of where we are eight years later today. But it was like you said, I was interested in the learning. I went to university to have as

many different experiences as possible. So for me, this was just another one. But it was very much like Sarah was saying that one-to-one mentorship, our mentors for Imperial, some of them have turned into investors. I continue to talk to my mentors and they're on my WhatsApp. When I go back to them saying, what do you think of this and how should I approach this situation? So they've been the foundation. I can hands, hands hold up, say that I would not be in this position today were it not for this conversation. It's so interesting. So having that support network, which is something I've heard from female entrepreneurs that you really need to cultivate, but I suppose you're coming

to it earlier. But some people might be wondering, did you ever become a doctor? I did. I did. I worked in the NHS for two years. Whilst I was at the time, it was very much what Sarah was saying. I wanted to understand the risks to this. So I wanted to ensure that one, we had submitted our patents and IP, and then once we had raised our fundraising, so once we did our first pre-seed round, that was when I stepped into the business full time and I haven't really looked back since. Okay. So you were like, I'm going to be an entrepreneur and not a doctor. The project you created, it is to do a period care.

Yes, it is. So we are Fluss, that is short for Flush Us. We are a certified flushable period care. And the reason we did this was because I wanted to give consumers an easier choice to make a better choice for the planet the same thing as the easiest choice for them. So with a flushable pad you get all the convenience of just being able to flush it away like toilet paper but in 30 days it's completely biodegraded into water, biogas and fertilizer. And I was looking at your website and it does as as you describe, although if somebody says don't flush a pad down or, you know, only toilet paper, do follow those instructions

when it comes to, I don't know, maybe Victorian plumbing, for example. But with this, I'm just wondering, because I suppose you're going to become a mentor now as well for Olivia, you know, Sarah was outlining some of the obstacles or barriers that they're trying to dismantle. What do you think it is that that stops women taking the plunge? That's a very great question. When speaking from my own personal experiences, there was a softer challenge when introducing because whenever there's a high risk element, I believe that people take that forward plunge when they've got the confidence or

comfort of knowing the area that they're talking about or even understanding it. With a lot of the male investors they are not consumers of this product nor have they really felt comfortable even speaking about it. So when I say that this is a period pad, even having that conversation is extremely uncomfortable and what I need to do is to put them into a place where they feel like they can own that conversation, have that and feel confident in making those high-risk decisions and in changing this market. And so like you say, it's not that I found that the doors are closed but it's that people are hesitant to step through them. You know, you're reminding me of that story of, you know,

when they sent a female astronaut to space and the NASA engineers gave her 100 tampons. She was going for a couple of days. It's just coming to mind. But it's a really interesting thing. But what about that, Sarah, then? I mean, our female entrepreneur is going to have to try and innovate products that that male venture capitalist can get behind? Well, there's a mix of entrepreneurs coming through. There's not just FemTech or products for women or, you know, targeted towards women.

We have a huge mix of different industries, different sectors, different areas of interest. Absolutely fascinating from climate tech through to FemTech, and as Olivia has spoken about. So there's different barriers across different areas. I mean, we know that there are far fewer female investors to start with, which is part of the problem. Who are the investors? I mean, where are women missing to not be able to invest?

They're missing throughout the whole chain of investment. So from angel investors right through to being on investment committees and partners in investment firms or venture capital firms. So there's a huge disparity there and I think this has been talked about and will be talked about in the inquiry that's upcoming is, you know, there's a systemic issue there around investment.

We know that women are asked different questions to men when they're... Give me an example. I believe you've jumped in if you feel free on that either. Yes, of course. So I often find that my role can shift into a matron in terms of explaining that education. But often, because of that unfamiliarity, they would, I would say, not focus as much on the consumer experience, which is, I think, a critical part of a product that you bring to market, and instead focus more on the technology, the IP, and the stuff that they feel more comfortable in terms of the the steel. So you have to tailor it to the investor.

Absolutely. And the investor might be quite different to you in a way. Yes absolutely and what's really interesting is the statistics tell us that women-led startups actually return 35% better returns to investors than male-led startups. So there's an economic case there and a business case for supporting more women. So it's quite upsetting for us to see that gap is still so large. And that 2% actually went down from last year. Last year it was 2.5 and it's gone down to 2%. What are we going to do to turn that around? The network is one. Yeah, so I think part of our role is to prepare and create a pipeline of successful women entrepreneurs, right, and give them those tools. And onboarding four more universities is part of that. So this is not just a London problem, it's not just an imperial problem, it's a national

problem. So we've bought onboard those four additional universities across the four nations to really try and do our bit to prepare women for those conversations and to combat some of those investment issues that might be prevalent right now, hopefully won't be prevalent in the future but are at the moment. Thank you both so much for coming in. Best of luck with the networking and also more entrepreneurs. Hopefully we'll have better percentages we can be talking about next time we speak. That is Sarah Ritchie-Hale and also Dr. Olivia

Anne, part of the success stories of women entrepreneurs. Do join me tomorrow. I'm speaking to the woman who's directing The Crucible at the Globe Theatre. Ole Ince, a feminist production of Arthur Miller's classic play, will immerse audiences in the 17th century Salem community. I'm on my way after I finish here. Talk to you tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Annabelle Dees and from BBC Radio 4 this is Shadow World, the smuggler. People coming to this country was making me successful. A year ago I met a people smuggler, a British man who joined an international smuggling

gang. I uncover his motivations and his methods. I'm telling you now how easy it is. And investigate whether his tactics are still possible. That does leave a really exploitable loophole for individuals who want to do harm. Shadow World, The Smuggler. Listen now on BBC Sounds.