Woman's Hour - 03/09/2025

Episode Date: September 3, 2025

Women's voices and women's lives - topical conversations to inform, challenge and inspire.

Hello, I'm Nula McGovern and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good morning, good to have you with us. Well, Dame Anna Wintour's successor has been named and so American Vogue gets a new editor. We'll hear how Chloe Mal landed the coveted job. But also staying with fashion, you may have seen Julia Roberts and Amanda Seafreed wearing the same outfit at the Venice Film Festival. shock horror, or more like creative power move by Versace. So, an oversized blazer, jeans with a striped shirt, is now hailed as the new Go Anywhere outfit.

Today's iteration of power dressing. So we're also going to talk about that. And to you, what is in your wardrobe that gives you that oomph and ready to take on the world? I do love a blazer. I am partial to red. I also like a pair of high-waisted wide-leg trousers. but what about you? You can text the program.

The number is 84844 on social media where at BBC Women's Hour or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message, a voice note. The number is 0-3700-100-444. Also today, we'll get an update on a landmark tribunal case taking place. It involves a nurse, Sandy Peggy,

who objected to a trans woman doctor using the women's changing room at an NHS Fife hospital. You will also hear the next conversation from our series on surviving suicide. We're going to hear Eloise's story. It is told so movingly. Her dad, Damien, took his own life when she was just 14. That's coming up as she speaks to our reporter, Joe Morris.

And we also want to talk about provocative, sometimes explicit lyrics from female pop stars. Sabrina Carpenter has caused quite a stir coming under fire recently for her album. but it's obviously not the first time we've heard this debate so why is it still so controversial for female pop stars to sing about sex? But let me begin with the new woman who's deciding what's hot and what's not in the world of fashion.

Chloe Mal has been appointed the head of US Vogue, the biggest job in fashion, replacing the formidable Dame Anna Wintour. And she certainly has big stilettos to fill or maybe stilettos are out now, I don't know. But who is Chloe Mal? and how will she make the job her own? Well, joining me in studio to discuss is the Financial Times Fashion Editor, Elizabeth Payton.

Welcome. Thank you for having me. So tell us a little bit about Chloe Mal. So Chloe Mal was always the front runner in this race ever since Anna Winter said she was stepping aside two months ago from running American Vogue. She's a Vogue lifer. She's been there for more than 10 years and worked on every aspect of the magazine. She also has a famous mother, so she's part of the NEPA baby trend.

Her mother is Candice Bergen, who fun fact played the Vogue Editor-in-Chief in Sex and the City. Yes, she did. But Chloe, you know, she runs the Vogue website at the moment. She's the editor of Vogue.com, which naturally put her in a very strong position to take this role. And she's doubled traffic. She's also started something called Dogue, which I think your listeners might appreciate, which is the first fashion magazine for dogs. And that also gives you a sense of the direction she might take things in.

Let's just stop there for a second. Fashion magazine for dogs. What are we looking at? Apparently it's the most popular thing on the Vogue website which reflects A, how much people love their dogs but also, as I said,

it's quite a step away from Devil Where's Prada era, isn't it? It's about taking things less seriously about who can be in Vogue and I think Chloe's been very deft at convincing Anna that that might be a direction

for the magazine to go in. I mean, Vogue obviously is always about disposable income but perhaps even it going to your dog brings it to the next level. But, you know, I was wondering how much power, we're talking about power this morning,

quite a bit, Elizabeth, from the clothing to the people. How much power will she have? I mean, Anna Wintour is going to stay in the office with the pottery, I believe? Tell us a little bit about that. So the thing that's really important to realize is Anna is not going anywhere. She is not going to be the editor-in-chief of American Vogue anymore because nobody's going to be the editor-in-chief. That title is leaving with her.

Chloe will be the head of editorial content. Anna will still sit in her office. And she remains the chief content officer of Condé Nass, the publisher of other titles like New Yorker and Vanity Fair. And she also remains the editorial lead of all Vogue Global Editions. So it's an opportunity for Chloe to do something new, but that might be tricky if your boss who's held the position for four decades is a few steps down the hall.

I mean, I already see the book, the last editor-in-chief. of American Vogue, which Anna has managed to be. Who else was up for the job? Do we know? I think a couple of other people, Nicole Phelps, who runs Vogue Runway, who is a very established critic, very well known in the industry. Chloe doesn't spend that much time in Europe, which is obviously where most of the big luxury brands are based. Cho Manadi, who is the British Vogue editor, apparently had her hat in the ring.

And Eva Chen, who runs fashion partnerships for Instagram, but I think she's paid a lot more money where she is now. Aha. What do you think is the biggest challenge? I mean, we talk about, it's interesting that Doge takes off. But, you know, we know that there is a real challenge for luxury brands to, you know, be able to really push through and make profits, to be quite frank. Yes, I mean, luxury is in a challenging place at the moment. That's almost a different story.

The challenge for Vogue at the moment is how to remain a vital piece of the story puzzle for brands that want to access consumers, given that brands now can contact those consumers via social media channels, building their own campaigns. And so the challenge for Chloe and any Vogue editor, you know, moving forward, is how do you remain an authority, a cultural authority, defining what matters rather than just rubber stamping, you know, what already exists.

And, you know, one of the big scoops that Chloe had was she got the interview with Lauren Sanchez before her wedding to Jeff Bezos earlier this year. There was a big question over where that sort of wedding should be in vogue in the first place. Is that a Vogue wedding? I personally think that was a great scoop and most journalists would have been after that conversation. But it was also a big moment of what is Vogue once again? Who goes in Vogue?

What is it supposed to be now? And this is Chloe's opportunity to try and do something a little bit different. She's done a little bit of teasing about what she might do. She's already said she doesn't think there should be an issue every month. She thinks that it should be more thematic. it comes to print, how advertisers will feel like that about that is another story. But, you know, even being able to say that, I think, is very impressive. She also really recognises that events are a massive piece of the puzzle now for Condé Nass.

So the Met Ball, Met Gala is obviously the sort of jewel in the crown of the Condonast events. But being able to bring Vogue to life so people can really experience it. They have a franchise called Vogue World, the next iteration of that's in Hollywood later this year, but they've had one in London. What is it? it's an all singing all dancing spectacle that is honestly the best way to describe it there will be fashion there will be celebrities there is normally an attempt to weave in some of the culture of the place

so you know the London one was at a jury lane theatre but it had Stormsy it's an experiment but I think it's a reflection that Anna sees that Vogue can't just be a print Bible anymore it has to be a world that people want to access and she's quite bold in sort of how she tries to to bring that to people with some things more successful than others. Interesting to think about the Met Gala and how ostentatious and crazy.

And I love watching it. I have to say the outfits that people put on. But I want to go to maybe the other end of where we're looking at fashion now. Something we're asking our listeners about this morning is power dressing because we will have seen this week images of the actor Julia Roberts, also Amanda Seafried, who both wore the same outfit to, Venice Film Festival just a couple of days apart. I was describing it as an oversized blazer, a pair of jeans, and there was a striped shirt. Yeah, it wasn't crazy about the shirt of

one. It's kind of fine. Stripes are really big though this season. I love a stripe, but maybe it's just not for my colouring. What was it? Kind of pistachio and sort of a mix bit more kind of creamy brown. Yeah. Anyway, they wore it and people are saying that this is the new iteration of power dressing what do you think um i'm going to give you a slightly fudged answer which i truly think power dressing is anything you want it to be so you know for some people they'll love being in a suit for other people they'll want to be in a structured dress i think the fact that this is being presented as power dressing reflects what kind of where we are at the moment are we all fashioned out do most people actually just want to be able to pull items they probably have on in their wardrobe and say this is how i feel

comfortable this takes me from work to dropping my kids off to school to going out for dinner at night And that's something that these Hollywood celebrities think a lot about. How can I seem presentable? How can I seem accessible? You know, these are women that can look incredible in a one-of-a-kind couture gown at the Venice Film Festival. But they also want to say, maybe I'm just like you. But this would have been such a no-no for the same outfit to appear twice in that week. How did it come about? So my understanding is that both Julia Roberts and Amanda Cicry share the same stylist, Elizabeth Stewart.

And obviously, Julia Roberts being the Queen of Hollywood. Hollywood got first dibs on this outfit, which is by Versace, which has a new creative director, a gentleman called Dario Vitale. And so she wore the dress. And then Amanda Siegfried posted on Instagram underneath the post saying, please, can I wear this too? Now, I wouldn't surprise most of your listeners to know that normally competition for looks is unbelievably fierce.

And so it's not often that you then see to celebrities wearing outfits back to back. And these really were back to back. this wasn't with a couple of weeks or months apart. This is at the same film festival, you know, within 24 hours. But I think, you know, listen, this is what we should be doing. Let's normalise two people wearing the same outfit in 24 hours. Fashion can be so ridiculous sometimes. And I actually think this is very refreshing.

It's very different, though, because Donatella, Versace is not the head there anymore. As you mentioned, it has a new lead designer. And I suppose this is taking it in a completely different. Yeah, I mean I would just take this as one look because Julia Roberts also were a second Versace outfit on the red carpet which was a sort of sweeping floor length harlequin gown. So I think what's happening at the moment which is quite interesting is that there's lots of new designers

showing wares later this month and they are sending smoke signals from the Venice red carpet of what their looks may be like. We'll see at these shows later this month but this was a good way for Mr. Vitale to say this might be one of the directions that I'm going in. You know, you were mentioning about power dressing is, whatever you wanted to be. Here's a message that came in. It's Hattie, I think, in London.

My vintage leopard fake fur coat is known as the coat. I bought it 30 years ago from a secondhand shop. It's still the item I can pull on over anything and feel fabulous. It's got me into nightclubs. It was my signature luck during my 20s. It made me feel good during sleep deprived and physically ravaged working motherhood in my 30s and 40s. Now in my early 50s, I've added a summer canvas version from Ganny so I can feel fab. all year round. Cost pair wear, I think we'd be down to 0.0001 by now, best buy ever.

That's great. Do you have something that you go to for power dressing? I have a vintage, a lyre dress, which is a bit of a fashion sort of insider choice, but I spent all my money on it when I was about 27. I can just about squeeze myself into it still, but it feels like an armour and it makes me feel strong and it makes me able to go from a boardroom to a fashion show, to a party or an event. I can wear it with boots. I can wear it with heels. I feel the strongest version of myself. Can you describe it? It sounds more boring than it is, but it's got a kind of boat neck and then long sleeves. It's very cinched in at the waist to offer a sort of silhouette and then it comes just down to the knees. But it's not really

the silhouette. It's about how it's structured that makes it really special. And as I said, I'm still trying to squeeze myself into it. And I can. 10 years after I bought it. Elizabeth Payton, thank you very much for coming in, the Financial Times Fashion Editor. If you would like to get into touch with the program, 844-844 is one number to text,

or indeed you can get in touch with us in all the usual ways on social media. I can see your messages coming in. I will read some of them throughout the program. Now, closing submissions were made this week in a landmark tribunal case involving an Earth Sandy Peggy, who objected to a trans woman doctor using the women's changing room at an NHS Fife hospital.

This led to an encounter between the pair, and the doctor complained about Miss Peggy, who was suspended in January 2024 and then took the Health Board and Dr Beth Upton to a tribunal. I should say that Sandy Peggy was cleared of gross misconduct this July. I'm joined now by Scotland correspondent for BBC News, Lorna Gordon. For an update, welcome Lorna.

You've been following this case. What was happening on Monday and Tuesday this week? Well, yeah, it's been a really elongated tribunal. We heard from the first tranche of witnesses back at the beginning of the year. It was then sitting again in July when we heard for more witnesses. This week it was the time for the lawyer's closing submissions. Sandy Peggy's lawyer Naomi Cunningham told the tribunal her client was the victim of a witch hunt and spiteful character assassination by NHS Fife,

an organisation that she said was in the grip of delusion about gender self-ID. the lawyer told the tribunal that trans women should be excluded from women-only spaces as they are still men both legally and factually and that it was wholly reasonable for Miss Peggy to be frightened and angry when she encountered Dr Upton in the hospital changing room because the doctor was, she said, male, bigger and higher up the social and professional hierarchy than the nurse. And the lawyer representing NHS 5 and Dr. Beth Upton? Yeah, Jane Russell Casey is representing the two respondents.

She said that the aggressive and offensive way in which, which Sandy Peggy confronted Dr. Upton in the female changing room was behavior that doesn't deserve the protection of the Equality Act. She said Ms. Peggy had strong and intolerant views towards ethnic minorities, gay and trans people, which bled into the workplace, and that the nurse's decision to confront Dr. Upton in the changing room was born out of anger, not fear, and said the claim the doctor set out to harass Nurse Peggy was absurd. On what grounds, Lorna, did Sandy Peggy bring this? tribunal? I think it's probably worth circling back to those events which took place two years ago

when Sandy Peggy and Dr. Upton cross paths in the changing room, near the emergency department in the Victoria Hospital in Kokodi. And in particular what happened on Christmas Eve, 2023. Sandy Peggy recounted in her evidence to the tribunal that she'd entered the changing room to change her clothes after a menstrual flood. Dr. Upton was there. There was a conversation. the exact details of what was said during that conversation are disputed. Ms. Peggy's position is that being made to share the changing with Dr. Upton, who is a biological male who identifies as a female, amounts to unlawful harassment under the Equality Act. NHS 5 and Dr. Upton dispute the nurses' claims of harassment, victimization and discrimination,

and they call them unnecessary and vexatious. So a lot seems to hinge on what we said. in that changing room in December of 2023. And that, of course, has been under scrutiny at this tribunal. Yeah, the accounts of this conversation are conflicting. Sandy Peggy says that on the night in question, she stated she told Dr. Upton that it was unacceptable that the doctor was there,

that she felt embarrassed and intimidated, that she told Dr. Upton she'd had a previous bad experience with a man and said she hoped Dr. Upton would realize her discomfort. Dr. Upton, she said, had been indifferent. to her concerns. Dr. Upton, who's accused the nurse of bullying, stated to the tribunal, I felt unsafe and had said to the nurse during the conversation, I am not a man, I'm allowed to use the changing room, and that if the nurse had a problem, she could raise it formally. Beth Upton said, Ms. Peggy asked what the doctor's chromosomes were.

The doctor recounted the nurse then made a remark, which Dr. Upton took to be a comparison to the transgender rapist, Ila Bryson. Dr. Upton complained. Sandy Peggy was, suspended and then investigated by NHS five. I believe some of Sandy Peggy's previous text messages were raised in the tribunal. Can you tell us about that? Yeah, you know, I've covered a lot of criminal cases. I've covered some civil cases. But what I think I've discovered is that lawyers in employment tribunal, certainly this one,

seem to have a lot more leeway in their questioning. Social media messages sent by Miss Peggy were raised in evidence, former colleagues, former friends, said she had made racist remarks and that she'd made comments about Dr. Upton in online chat. When asked about the posts, she had made mocking floods in Pakistan. Ms. Peggy said there were posts shared from Facebook that she'd expected to provoke a shock rather than laughter from the girls who were in the WhatsApp group.

She said she harbored no bad feelings towards trans people in general but did not believe men should be in women's changing areas. She admitted some remarks made about Dr. Upton in a WhatsApp chat were derogatory and demeaning, but added they were only made to a small group of friends. I think the material was being used to challenge her credibility. Ms. Peggy's lawyer denied Ms. Peggy was a racist, but argued that even racist women should not be forced to undress in front of a man. We heard in July that Miss Peggy was cleared of gross misconduct.

That process had been going on. alongside the tribunal case? Yeah, yeah, she'd been facing this internal disciplinary process. She'd faced allegations of misconduct, failures of patient care, and of misgendering Dr. Upton in July, so partway through this tribunal process. In fact, right at the start of the second tranche of witness evidence, NHS Fife announced that they found there was insufficient evidence

to support a finding of misconduct and no formal sanctions were imposed. Sandy Peggy was her solicitor said, relieved and delighted she'd been cleared of all the charges she'd been facing in this internal disciplinary. Now, a lot of people will be thinking, how does this case link with the Supreme Court ruling that the terms woman and sex in the 2010 Equality Act refer to a biological woman and biological sex? I think there's a wider context here that's worth noting. The issue of gender, the wider issue of gender, has provoked years of debate here in Scotland. There was arguments about the case of the transgender rapist known as Ila Bryson. There was attempts by

politicians in Edinburgh ultimately blocked by Westminster to change the gender recognition reform bill, making it easier to legally change gender. Last year, Edinburgh rape crisis centre was ordered to pay nearly £70,000 and publicly apologised to a worker constructively dismissed over her gender critical beliefs. And then, yeah, as you say, back in April, the UK Supreme Court unanimously ruled that a woman is defined by biological sex under the Equality Act. I think it's playing a big part in this tribunal. The lawyer for Miss Peggy's grounded her submissions to the Tribunal and the Equality Act and the four women Scotland judgment.

Her position is that single sex spaces are lawful, only if provided for women alone and sex must be given its biological meaning. The judge, in an employment tribunal, gets to ask questions of the two sides at the very end of the closing submissions. A lot of his questions yesterday were questions about the Supreme Court ruling. The lawyer for the respondent in this tribunal was asked for her definition of biological sex to which she replied, that's difficult. Sex is complicated and nuanced. So what's the significance of the tribunal do you think? I think this tribunal is potentially hugely significant. I think it's the first employment tribunal least that I'm aware of to

test the scope of the judgment in the four women's Scott Supreme Court case. It's also shown a light on how public bodies develop policies on sex and gender in the workplace. Some might also say it's also shone a light on how they would say the policy of gender self-identification has been become embedded in public institutions in Scotland. And it's a hearing which, of course, has thrown into sharp relief the issue of women's rights versus trans rights and where they might come into conflict. So what now, Lorna?

Well, that was the closing submissions. We should now have been, that was the public side of it that should have been coming to an end. But at the very last minute, Dr. Upton and NHS's Fife's legal team requested an amendment application to be added to their. defense. Ms. Peggy's lawyer objected. She said if the defense was allowed to alter the pleadings at the last minute, the tribunal, she argued, would need to meet again and potentially call witnesses, again, including Miss Peggy herself. The judge said he wants to go away and have

think about this and whether or not to allow for the amended defence. He's also said not to expect a ruling on the substantive issues before November at the very earliest. And I think, of course, given the significant, the potential significance of the final ruling when it eventually comes, there's the very real possibility that the ruling might be appealed by whichever side loses. Lorna Gordon, thank you very much, Scotland correspondent for BBC News, for bringing us that update. You can text Woman's Hour on 84844, and if you are already this morning in relation to

power dressing we were talking about. here's one. Anna Winterer, who's stepping aside, should I say, said once to my 10-year-old daughter that she really liked the stack-heeled shoes she was wearing and they were from Woolworth's a bit of power dressing from children. Right, we'll come back to some more of your message is in a bit. But first I want to go to Belinda Carlisle. Maybe you were listening to her the other day. Well, she started her musical career as Dotty Danger, a drummer in a punk band. She gained fame as the lead vocalist of the go-goes, one of the most successful all-female new wave bands. and went on to have prolific career as a solo artist

with hits, including Heaven is a Place on Earth, leave a light on and circle in the sand. She's now in the UK for an upcoming tour. She also has a new album. And last Friday, she spoke to Anna Foster, who asked her about her eclectic range of musical genres. I grew up with melodic pop. The punk scene came along.

It really spoke to that rebellious teenager in me, and I loved it, and I still left punk rock. And then, thank God for the whole movement. otherwise the go-go's would never have happened and we were a punk band but we all actually had melody too so yeah I mean my career has been varied very much varied when we look at what you're doing now

learning Spanish I mean you've recorded an album French songs before maybe a Spanish album Oh who knows I also did a Sanskrit album because I chant every day So I don't know what I'm going to do next I mean I am learning Spanish because I live in Mexico So who knows I mean that thought has crossed my mind if I'm going to be honest. Yeah, I bet it has. What took you to Mexico? We were living, I mean, I haven't

lived in the States since 1994. So I lived in France for 24 years, and I lived in Thailand. I mean, I've lived in eight different countries. And during the pandemic, because Thailand was so far away, and I was starting to feel the distance. So now we're in Mexico. It's three hours from my friends and family, as opposed to 27 hours. And I think this is the last stop. I don't want to move again. Put down some rooms. But also, you mentioned the San Francisco. great album. You're living a really, really clean lifestyle now, early nights, up early for meditation and yoga, sober since 2005. It must be like a contrast to the rock and roll years. Yeah, it's totally opposite. I mean, I used to go to bed at four or five o'clock in the morning.

Now I get up at three. So, so, and that's kind of a daily practice. And it's just, you know, my own sort of practice that I always say it takes a lot of work to stay, feel stable and normal in this world. So for me, it's like an essential part of my life. Good for Belinda. I have to say after years of nights, I don't think I'll ever get up at 3 a.m. voluntarily. But Belinda Carlisle, if you'd like to hear the full interview, just go to BBC Sounds for Friday the 29th of August. Now, I want to turn to the second in our series of life after suicide. This week, we've spoken to three women who have had the experience of someone close to them taking their own life. speak frankly and honestly about their experiences both immediately in the aftermath of a death

by suicide, but also reflecting on the long-term impact. Eloise was just 14 when her dad Damien took his life. That was two years ago. And Eloise wanted to talk to us about how she navigated that difficult time and also what gets forgotten when talking with teenagers about suicide loss. Sam, who we heard from on Monday, supported Eloise and her mom during that time. Our reporter Joe Morris met Eloise and her mum Becky at her home. First Eloise showed Jo one of her favourite photos. This is one of my favourite ones.

This is a living festival and we went with my dad's best friend and his daughter in summer three years ago. So this is a picture of you and your dad? Yeah. I like your sunglasses. Thank you. And they played Oasis, Don't Look Back in Anger, and it was really good. So that's the funeral song I picked for my dad, for one of them. Well, I just feel sad, but I just remember how good it was, so it makes me feel happy.

What was your dad's name? Damien, yeah. And tell me about your dad, Damien. What was he like? He was just so amazing. Like, he was so funny. He was just me, but he was my dad. It was literally the best.

person how old are you now 16 and how old were you when your dad died um 14 and how old was your dad do you know yeah he was 43 when he died it was nearly his two year anniversary what do you miss most about your dad we used to just do so many things he ever like we this sounds it was so small but like after we eating eating tea we used to just listen to music and wash up together and then go in the living room and have an ice cream and watch a movie. Like, I just miss so much about him. So how old were you when your mum and dad split up? I was 10 or 11.

I was in year 6. And then you used to go between your mum and dad's house, did you? Yeah. We used to have it completely half time. I never spent more time with my mum or more time with my dad. They didn't want me to not see each other. They were just like, oh yeah, do whatever. Why did you want to talk with us today, Eloise? because I want to share that when it all happened to me

I'm fine well I'm not fine but I've like got through the most hardest bits and I've just done all my GCSEs I'm excited for college like things do get better with grief and losing a parent because I've came so far in the past two years in the first year I wouldn't go out I wouldn't do anything I'd just sit in my room all day

I was just so, so low. I felt guilty, I felt sad, I felt happy, and then I felt guilty because I felt happy. And me and my mum, we just used to drive and drive, and we just used to cry and talk, and just, I don't even know, it was just awful. Were you angry with your dad? Yeah, I was really angry with him,

because at the start, I just thought, like, he's literally left me. Like, I have so many things in my life, and he's just gone, like, he's left me. That's my grandma and dad My mum's mom And there's me and my mum I didn't know where we were there We were on the cruise

With grandma and granddad Your dad had to go on the top bunk Yeah You wanted to but you were too little So you'd fall out so your dad Got relegated to the top bunk And then there's me and my mum in New Yorker But this was just after my dad died

When we went on holiday We just wanted to get away from all of the sadness at home and just go away for a bit. Could you tell anyone? Could you tell your friends? Yeah, I could speak to my friends about it. Like, I posted it. Tell it, because people do that, don't they?

I put on what happened. I put loads of pictures on others. And I think it got like 400 likes and like 300 comments. And people are like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. And I was like, yeah. And then I put it on my story. and people were replying, how did he do it? What happened? And I just think, what? How can you reply to someone? Their dad has just died, and you're asking, how do they do it? And I remember

this one boy at my school, messaged me, and he put, like, different ways of people can take their own lives and said, did he do this? Did he do this? And it was only about three days after he died. Do you think adults realise this, Eloise, what teenagers have to deal with? No. They won't know that their sons are doing that. Their moms won't know. If their moms found out, they would be sick and, like, what? It has a massive effect as well. Like, TikTok has so many videos about people committing suicide. Oh, it's bad. It's this, it's that. But you won't know it unless you've been through it. So on your first day back at school, so you went back after a week initially, how were you feeling on that first day back? I got there and I was like, oh no, no one in my school knew. My mum called up, but it didn't get sent around that my dad died, so none of my teachers knew.

And I came in and I was upset, and I wanted to sit next to my friend because it was the last day, so you'd think anyone can sit where they want. And this teacher started screaming at me, saying, I have to move back, and I just started crying, and she was like, why are you crying, blah, blah, I started to scream, and I was like, my dad just died. I was so mad. And then I ran out of the class, went to the toilet, I started crying my eyes out, and then I just got mum to pick me up

so I think I was in school about 15 minutes and then I went home. What was your lowest point? I feel like after the funeral that was when the reality proper hit but that first day was awful but just getting all my stuff from my dad's house and getting all of his stuff

yeah that was really really hard but I did feel lonely but I knew I had people around me me and my mum we did it well we do everything together now we did argue for the first like the start of it we were both so upset and like we just shoved together after having half and half we used to get so annoyed at each other and this is my mum who has helped me through this awful time yeah yeah she's a bit annoying sometimes yeah when she's annoying what sort of things did she do yeah yeah there were lots of times that school was saying to me you need to get her into school.

I was saying I can't get her into school. Then I'd shout at Eloise and then teenage hormones and grief and it was just hell running. That first eight months were really tough. And she just wanted her dad. She just missed her dad and it was hard to navigate it all. In those early days, why didn't you want to go to school? It was just too big of a thing.

I didn't want to have to get up and put a happy face on. I just wanted to be at home and feel safe and not have to deal with stupid questions. How much school did you end up missing? I probably missed about a full year. I had such a big thing happen to me. I just needed to like get back to myself and not feel like an awful mess.

Yeah. The school was absolutely shocking with it. Like it was so bad. Yeah, I didn't. get help for like seven, eight months and then I finally got something on to see, but once a week and I only got her for about eight weeks, yeah. A counsellor that you were saying, was that helpful? No, no. You're laughing. Yeah, well, she was really nice. I'm not a slate in her saying she was bad. She was so lovely, but I just think the school environment isn't good help

for me. What did you need, Eloise, in that school environment. what did you need? I just, I needed a place where I could go to and someone just talked to me or just talk to me about anything. If I was upset, they'd rather send me home than help me. And I had this, um, card where I could go into Thrive Crisis and I'd go and sit in this room. And then, so no one would come up to me, I'd be sat in the room, crying, then after 10 minutes, they'd come up to me and say, you've had your 10 minutes now, you have to go back to lesson. no one signs up for teaching and expects to deal with this stuff

it's not their fault that they don't understand because they've signed up to teach maths or to teach science they haven't signed up to have to like give therapy to a child but they do need to know how to, not necessarily how to deal with it but what to say

if someone comes up to them and how to navigate them to the right person So Sam, who we heard from On Woman's Hour early in the week, she came to help you quite quickly on after your dad died. She's helped my mum so much with how to deal with me and how I feel. And we would have been stuck in this awful place, but we got guided on where to go and the help we needed. And eventually you got a counsellor who was trained to deal with suicide, is that right?

Like a private counsellor or... Yeah. She's called Sarah. She's been a massive help. Because it's a very complicated form of grief suicide, isn't that? Yeah. So what are these here? These are my books that I write in to cope with my grief, really. No one that I write in?

Yeah. So I don't go near the books. You could just like me off as much as you want in those books. Like an outlet for everything, isn't it? Well, I write about how I deal with it and things that I can write to my dad and how I feel on the day. It asks loads of questions. Have your feelings changed over time? Well, I did feel really mad at him, but, yeah, I felt really mad at him, but now, I don't know, I just, I just miss him, but, yeah.

Yeah, wait, I can't speak probably. No, but I was mad at him, and I still am mad at him, but. because he did it at night, so if you went to bed and he spoke by it the next morning, he'll be fine, but... Why is it important to you to talk about suicide? Suicide should be spoken about more, because it's a massive, massive killer. I think some people think that it's a really, really bad thing to do,

and it's so selfish, but people don't realise that once they get it in the head, well, for my dad, once he got something his head, he couldn't get rid of it. and like people need to speak about it more and normalise it so people feel open to speak about it when they feel bad So what do you think gets forgotten with teenagers in a way When things like this happen? People like lose parents so young

We don't experience all the things you're meant to with parents And I think sometimes people don't think we can process it Because we're children Like my grandma and granddad are still alive My mum's never had to deal with the death of a parent And I have. I've had to mature a lot faster than most people because of it and it's just made me who I am

and it's made me stronger. It's hard, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. How do you feel teenagers talk about suicide in general? Well, rolling your eyes. Yeah, well, I think something, it's a joke, like, oh, I'm going to kill myself or kill yourself. Like, people die from it, so you can't joke about it.

I always correct them, I always stare at them, and they realise they've done wrong and they say, Do you get tiring? Yeah. So what would you like people to know if they were talking to a young person like yourself, who's lost a parent to suicide or a loved one? What do you need to hear? What would be helpful?

Well, I wouldn't like to get asked stupid questions. Like, did they leave a no? How did they do it? I don't know if this goes for everyone else, but I just want them to ask like, oh, what was your favourite memory? You know, speak about something positive and, like, find comfort in the sadness. That's something nice, I think. What is your favourite memory of your dad?

There's just loads, like... Well, before he died, we went to South Africa like three months before and travelled South Africa. We did shark diving in the cages. There was a seal island. We swam with like 9,000 seals all swimming around us. But we just did everything together. When did things begin to change for you?

Do you think, Eloise? When did you begin to feel like you were turning a corner? I feel like the start of year 11 was my turning point. I wanted to make a change. I wanted to do well with my GCSEs because I feel like I've done amazing this year. Like I had like 30% attendance last year and now I have 96. I've just properly revised, I've put my head down, caught up with everything and enjoyed GCSEs, like who actually enjoys exams and I did.

It's just such a difference and I'm just really proud of myself, yeah. And you made a speech at school quite really. recently? Yeah. It was part of my GCSE and my English because you had to pick a topic you were passionate about. Yeah, and I did it about suicide. What the effects of suicide had on me and had on people. I talked about if you're feeling like that, the places to go. Men at the age of 40 and what was it like if you standing up in front of all your classmates? It was very, very scary. I was shaking. You know when your voice is about to crack and you start crying and I was like, Oh, no. But I just went through with it because I started crying and I looked up and everyone

else was crying. So I thought, I might as well just go through with it. So I finished it. It was so good. And all the boys listened and I hope it, like, it helps some of them because I was talking about Sigma and all this. Because boys think that they can't cry in front of people and they were crying. So I thought, even if that's just how one boy in my class, then I think I've done well with that speech. Yeah. Did you talk to any of the boys afterwards about it? Well, oh yeah, my friend, he was like, Eloise, that was so moving. Like, I've not cried for months, and I was crying, and I was like, oh, my goodness. And then he spoke to me about his personal stuff.

And I was, he was just, I just felt so proud that he was able to speak to me. So that's what you want to do? Yeah. You want to be a counsellor? Yeah. A bereavement, counsellor, suicide loss and stuff, because I know how it feels, so. When you're having a hard time now, if you feel, upset about your dad what do you do to help yourself i just look at old pictures and i just go on a walk

listen to music go through our messages i just know how to cope really just just give him a little message say i miss you like what will you say to him today about this interview he'll be so happy he'll be like get that on your CV so but he just always banged on about CV and uni but yeah he would be really, really proud of me. The incredible Eloise will be walking the Baton of Hope for her dad, Damien, in September. I want to let you know on Friday's program, you can hear the experience of Steph,

who suspects that her mother's decision to take her own life was impacted by the menopause. I want to thank our guests and also our reporter, Joe Morris. If you have been affected by any of the issues discussed, please do check out the BBC Action Line webpage for help and support. I also want to read out a message that came in while we were listening to that.

It says what an amazing young lady, Eloise is, such a strong, intelligent, fun girl. Her mum should be so proud of her and I'm sure her dad is looking down equally proud. Well done, Eloise. It was a really inspirational and interesting interview. I second that. Now, I want to take a moment to go back to Listener Week. Just last month in August when you, our listeners, decided the agenda. I spoke to the long-distance swimmer Amy Enion.

Her mom and avid listener wanted to tell us about Amy's achievements, including her recent 23-mile swim of Loch Ness. Here she is. Why Loch Ness specifically is I was looking for a swim that would make me feel closer to my late father. He passed from bowel cancer about four years ago. And he and my mum spent a lot of time up on the Caledonian Canal. I've seen all the photos of them up there.

So doing that swim, being able to be up there, like be in that water, made me feel a little bit closer to him, which was lovely. You wear a swimsuit, not a wetsuit. I prefer to swim in a swimsuit. Why? I am a larger lady. I am six foot tall.

I'm a UK size 18 to 20. The fact of the matter is wetsuit companies do not make wetsuits my size. If I try to reach out to them, they'll tell me, oh, you can wear our men's XXL. And I'm like, I'm really sorry I have double Ds. If your men's XXL fits me,

I think there's something wrong with your men's sizing. So you're going across Luckness, which people say it's very dark and very cold. What's going through your mind? If I'm in the zone, if I'm in the flow state, some people call it, I am not thinking at all. It's like an active meditation for me. It's one of the only times in my life where my mind actually quiets down. If I'm not getting into that flow state, then I might be thinking about my technique that, you know, just thinking strokes. Stroke.

And as you're speaking to me, you're putting your arms like in a forward crawl. I'm doing it in a little motion. So that will help me to pass the time. If none of that's working, I can sing the sixth musical the entire way through to myself in my head. You can hear the full interview by listening back to the 4th of August program on BBC Sounds. Thanks very much for your messages coming in. We're talking about power dressing. Here's one.

Helen Mirren always gets the red carpet look right. She knows exactly what suits her. I love the photos of her promoting Thursday Murder Club film. white sweater and a wrap skirt fabulous because we're talking about the jeans and the blazer that's another way to go right I want to turn to Sabrina Carpenter we're going to have a frank conversation

about some of her and other pop stars explicit lyrics so if you do have small children at home you might want to turn the radio down for a few minutes the 26 year old singer and songwriter is maybe best known for this catchy pop song released last summer So that's Expresso, pretty sexual, but her new album, which is man's best friend, has caused even more of a stir recently.

It has provocative artwork, plus nine out of the 12 tracks on the album are marked as explicit. Now, Sabrina Carpenter has described her music as not for the peril clutches and that her detractors need to get out more. But we have been here before, haven't we? Many female musicians throughout history have been accused of being too overtly sexual. So why is it still controversial for female pop stars to sing about sex? Well, to discuss it, I'm joined by the arts and culture journalist for the Gorgian and the Observer, Jude Rogers, and music journalist Jacqueline Springer, welcome to you both. I want to start with a bit of the track Tears, which is on Sabrina's new album,

and it is quite explicit in its words. So for those that weren't hearing the exact words, I'm sorry, but I have to do this to you. So it's like, I get wet at the thought of you, being a responsible guy, treating me like you're supposed to do, tears run down my thighs. Some say too profane, too much innuendo. Jude, what do you make of it? I didn't know you were going to be reading the man. Wow.

I think that song is, out of all of the songs they are, you know, quite funny because the context of it is she's feeling, I don't think I can say those words, you know, kind of, kind of, because I'm afraid of four, but it's about a responsible man making her feel this way. And I think that's actually quite funny. There's a lot of humour in some of her songs as well, like house tour. But every song seems to be about men and breakups, which, you know, I've been around the block, I'm a bit bored of that.

But kind of, yeah, that one, I think the humour lets you get away with that. Yeah, because she mentions him doing the washing up is kind of what's turning her on. Yeah, assembling a chair. kind of stuff like that. It's funny. So with that one, you will take it. I'm curious, Jacqueline, what your take is on that particular one? What, and with you on this, in so much as this is,

the tongue is very firmly in its cheek. What she's talking about, appreciation of some of the very basic tasks, you know, washing up. And I think the whole thing with Sabrina is that she's always been in on the joke, on the absurdity of the imbalances within relationships and feeling disappointed

and I think that's part of the narrative that governs your dating experiences from teenage all the way through for some, unfortunately, through their entire lives but certainly when you're traveling through that dating mindfield to try and find who you are as well as somebody else, that the idea

that somebody does something without asking or seems to use initiative then she's I think she's amplified the absurdity of just thinking, oh my goodness, he's great. Because we keep talking about power this morning, Jacqueline and Jude, more with dressing. But I think let's move it on into music here as well. Do you feel that there is empowerment, Jude, when lyrics are used explicitly?

Maybe in this way we can talk about Lola Young. We can talk about some others as well. It's a thorny issue, really. You know, there's obviously no problem with women talking about sex in songs, of course. I do find that Sabrina Carpenter sometimes gets talked about as if she's this radical, you know, pioneer where, you know, I've been a music journalist for a long time now over 20 years. And I remember when Lily Allen and Amy Winehouse first came out and they felt like they were offering something quite different and quite new. I'm also somebody who was, you know, eight years old when Papa Don't Preach came out. I was 12 when Vogue and Express Yourself came up by Madonna.

And if we're going to compare time periods, you know, what she's doing is very traditional and old-fashioned in some ways. Some of the lyrics, I think, you know, have that sense of extra humour about them that maybe makes them break through. You know, when we get on to other things of the cover art and stuff like that, I have very different feelings. But I think there are more interesting artists around talking about sex and Sabrina Carpenter. is I think what I'm saying.

Yeah, but why the outrage then, even in the more contextual way of what we're looking at now? If it's been there, you don't know what I mean? You just kind of brought us through a short, a potted history of female artists talking about sex. Yeah, I think in her case, it might have something to do with the cover-off for this album,

which is odd. Maybe we should describe what that is. On her hands and knees, there's a faceless man pulling her hair. She's looking straight at the camera very directly. But Catlin Moran of this brilliant piece about this in the times back in the summer. You know, however she wants to defend it

or however people want to say that it's empowering, you know, your instant reaction to that, most people's instant reaction to that is, you know, this is provocative for almost the sake of provocation. You know, it makes you think of, you know, violence and abuse and various things. And, you know, when I'm saying this, I'm feeling, you know, I don't want to sound too old-fashioned is the word in my head. But, you know, that album cover is more like a spinal tap album cover than it is.

And I don't think that message will get across to young people. She's got lots and lots of young female fans. I know lots of children my son's age, you know, 11, who absolutely worship her. And it is an image that even if she's taking control, you know, she's defended it. She said it's about being in on the control, being in on your lack of control. But I don't think that's going to translate to all her fans. I think it's just, you know, marketing. Is it your thoughts, Jacqueline, on that before I move on to Lowly Young?

Yeah, I think the thing is anybody, any of the artists that have been mentioned and others as well in dance or like Lady Saw and Patra throughout rap like Cardi B, Little Kim and Foxy Brands, any artists can broadly speaking say what they want, but they're, there are, you know, recurrent consequences of interpretation outside of their control. I think the sticky issue with Sabrina is that she is very witty. She is very profane. But, and the problem that many people have is that when she seems to be witty and profane in a way that that is counter to the challenges of patriarchal control of male dominance, etc., then that's where people feel abandoned. but that's the problem with art and perception is that people don't travel the same road all the waste of their careers.

Let me bring in a little of lowly young with one thing. We can hear a little of that. And it does get more explicit. She talks about sexual experiences. I mean, maybe this is just a trend, do we go through these phases? I think so.

Yeah, you didn't play some of the more provocative lyrics. The next verse after that is got some quite a big gag and it, pun intended, I suppose. Yeah, it might be, you know, there was a really interesting review of, interesting comment in a review on pitchfork, the American music website said about Sabrina Carpenter, what a coup in our vulgarly puritanical cultural moment.

I thought that's interesting in relation to lowly young. There is this almost desire for women to not express themselves about sex. You know, I think there are other really interesting artists like CMAT, who's take a sexy picture of me in the summer, was just felt really new and different about talking about the way women are subjected to this surveillance online of their sexuality, but

without playing to the usual rules and not having to use the same language. But I'm more interested in that side of things, people are doing something new because I do worry about the constant sexualisation of women. You know, it's a difficult thing. If you talk about your sexuality, people

will constantly be debating whether women should be, you know, it's just so thoughtful. It's so thorny. Yeah, I'm just wondering, though, I'm interested in that term like the culturally puritanical nature, Jacqueline.

How do you interpret that at this time? I think our discussion, you know, is just a tip of an iceberg. What we're looking at here are intergenerational kind of baton parts as to who is maturing into their sexual identity and their artistic identity.

We mustn't forget that there is an enormous machine behind all of these artists who are prepared, who are propelled to sell for profit. But when we think about Amy Winehouse, that very first album, Frank, it had very descriptive lyricism about the disappointment,

about the self-hatred, about this competitive nature of dating and finding the one. And I think what we've got to do in our criticisms, our critiques, and also parents' concerns, is consider how we're policing women within, you know, under the skies of a profit-driven industry whereby women are not just a receptacle of sex,

that they are, you know, they are full participants and some are narrating through fiction, through fantasy, and through factual recollection, their experiences. It is interesting because we've been speaking about it, obviously, about women. This is women's hour. But, of course, we've been hearing it in men's music, you know, male pop stars ever so long. And perhaps, I wonder, do you feel just in our last 30 seconds or so, Jude, is it different within the rap world, country music, let's throw that in there, pop stars?

You know what I mean? Does each genre kind of have its level of where the bar is on how explicit you can be? I think it's going through all genres now, you know, kind of pop with Sabrina and, you know, country with CMA, you know, kind of, you know, Yeah, I think it's kind of across the board. I just think it would be interesting if people, you know, went away from traditional tropes and just about, you know, kind of traditional ideas and tried some new ideas, messed with things a little bit more, put a little bit more ingenuity into the mix.

Let us see. What comes. Really good to speak to both of you. Thank you very much, Jude Rogers and Jacqueline Springer. Somebody says, what about Bessie Smith and her lyrics in the 1930s? So what goes around comes around. I want to let you know. I am back with you tomorrow. I'll be speaking to the journalist and author Karen Bartlett, whose latest book tells the story of the international network of women who helped Afghan female judges escape when the Taliban took power in 2021. Of course, Afghanistan in the news in relation to the earthquake this week as well. She'll be joined by the former Afghan judge, Fasia Amini. And we will also discuss exactly when it comes to the earthquake how women and girls have been

particularly affected. Some of you're getting in touch in relation to Eloise. Thank you for them. Anne says, I've been in tears listening to Eloise, marvelling at her courage and sharing her story both with us and her classmates and convinced it wouldn't have been possible without the strong bond between her and her mother,

proof that children should not be sidelined at a time of grief. I'll speak to you tomorrow. That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time. I'm Kate Lamble and from BBC Radio 4. This is derailed, the story of HS2. It's the tale of a railway which divided Britain, an ambitious idea

brought down by political reality and what it tells us about why we struggle to build a better future. We'll hear the inside story of how the dream of HS2 was created before it morphed into a political nightmare and national punchline. The absurd spectacle of a hundred million pound bat tunnel holding up the country's single biggest infrastructure project through backroom deals bat tunnels and the reality of power in the UK listen first on BBC sounds