Woman's Hour - 03/09/2026

Episode Date: September 3, 2026

Women's voices and women's lives - topical conversations to inform, challenge and inspire.

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ad-free, with an Amazon music subscription. Hello, this is Claire MacDonald, and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Women's Hour. This week, the government's plan to make childcare for the under five safer comes into force. Stronger welfare and safeguarding requirements include what children should sleep in and a big jump in offsted inspections. We'll get a view from nursery providers on what they think of the changes.

The Bayer Tapestry is finally here in the UK, the story of the Norman invasion of England in 1066. But what do we know about the women who are in it, just the four of them, and what was like for women during such a brutal time in England's history? We will dig into that this morning. Do you own a car? How confident are you about getting your hands dirty when it breaks down? Maybe you'll self-taught or is it an area that you still hand over wholesale

to your local garage or somebody else in your life? Well, this morning we're going to hear from an NHS doctor and lifelong car enthusiast. who has launched a mechanic school for women to fill that skills gap often experienced by women. So, we're after your car tails this morning. When did you manage to fix it yourself? Flat tire, jumpstart, that kind of thing. Maybe you came to somebody else's aid, or did somebody else come to yours? And also, maybe it was a dismissive experience at a garage that made you want to find out more about what was under the bonnet.

You can text the program. The number is 84844. text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we are at BBC Woman's Hour, and you can email us through our website, or you can send a WhatsApp message or voice note using this number, 0-7100-1444. And also today, we're going to be joined by the director of the BFI London Film Festival, who says women are being squeezed out of the film industry as they struggle to progress beyond their first. film. Now this year's festival, there are just two films out of the 21 high-profile

Gala films at the festival directed by women. So we'll hear from the director of the BFI London Film Festival, a woman herself. All that on the way. But let's start with nurseries, whilst the majority of nurseries across England are extremely safe, there have been some highly distressing cases reaching the headlines in recent years, where children have been abused or have come to harm. Now this week, actually just from a couple of days ago, the 1st of September, strengthened welfare and safeguarding requirements

under the Department for Education's Early Years Foundation Stage Framework have come into effect for early years providers in England designed to keep babies and young children safe. And also from this month, following £8 million of government funding, Ofsted will undertake an extra 3,000 unannounced visits each. year. We'll hear from child care providers shortly. But a BBC investigations team has been

closely following nursery safeguarding and I'm joined by reporter Haley Hassel. Haley, welcome. Thank you, Kai. Thanks for having you. Well, it's good to have you here. We will get into those government changes in a moment, but let's start with a reminder of some of the high-profile cases that you have reported on. And I should say to some listeners, you may find some of the details of this discussion distressing, but this is why the changes. needed to come into force, isn't it? Exactly. We've been looking at this, I suppose, from the beginning of 2024, 2023, when we looked at the death of nine-month-old Genevieve Meaghan in Stockport. So Genevieve died after being restrained. She was strapped to a beanbag face-down at Tiny-Tows

nursery while she slept. It was an incredibly distressing case for us to cover. In fact, one that we realised may never have come to light in that way, had it not been that the police had insisted on seeing the CCTV footage from that nursery. And what they found raised many serious questions about the sleep practices. The safe sleep was not looked into at all. The supervision was minimal. The staff had not been trained on safe sleeping and the whole regulation within that nursery. Nursery worker Kate Roughly was later convicted of manslaughter and sent to prison for 14 years. Now, after we reported on Genevieve's case, more families began contacting us, some that described children being dragged across the floor, physically manhandled, lifted in dangerous ways,

some left in high chairs or cots for so long that they developed sores and bruises. Others described children returning home distress, frightened and injured. And we've got to remember babies in nursery, babies or toddlers, it's difficult for them to express what's really happened and it's very difficult for them to be believed. So parents were struggling to get answers of what had actually happened. Now it is important to say that these cases are extremely rare. The vast majority of nursery staff do do a remarkable job caring for our children. But as more families started to come forward, we began to see some reoccurring themes and patterns. We were contacted by another parent whose son had died in circumstances that raised similar

questions about safe sleep. Noah was 14 months old when he died at Fairy Tales Nursery in Dudley in 2022, just six months after Genevieve had died. And the CCCC. TV in that case later revealed that he had been put down to sleep in a very unsafe way. He'd been tightly wrapped inside a sleeping bag with his head covered. Blankets were put on top of him and the nursery worker had laid her legs on top of him until he slept. The nursery worker responsible, Kimberly Cookson, was sentenced earlier this year to three years and four months in prison, while the nursery itself was actually convicted of corporate manslaughter as well and fined. Now, I've spent a lot of time with Noah's family and Noah's mother, Massey, Sabanda, over the

the last year and recently I asked a house you felt after the court case had been concluded. Those children weren't seen as humans, they weren't seen as children. I do feel that they were being treated as inanimate objects. They didn't treat them as living, delicate beings. As well as the grief and the pain of loss, there's just absolute defeat now. I know I've said it before that I felt defeated, but we really have been defeated. And I can't believe that my naivety and oversight meant that I put Noah in a dangerous situation, the most dangerous situation. Yes, on paper, Kimberly ultimately ended his life. But I think the reflection of the sentencing doesn't really show that actually she is accountable.

ultimately Noah has suffered the ultimate sentence and we alongside that continued that sentence. Masi, Sabanda, Haley, you also investigated serious cases of child abuse involving nursery workers, didn't you? Yeah, we did. A number of cases involved child abuse and I think one of the most shocking cases was that of Nathan Bennett, a child care worker at Pardue's King Street Nursery in Bristol. He was convicted of sexually abusing children as younger students,

and was sentenced to 30 years in prison. But what made this case particularly concerning for us was that the staff and parents had been raising serious concerns about his behaviour way before his crimes were uncovered. I actually spoke to a whistleblower Bessie who worked alongside him at the nursery and she described him spending unusual amounts of time alone with the children, particularly during nap times. He was physically very close to them and she said there were occasions when she felt something just wasn't right. And Bessie wanted to speak publicly about it because she believes it's important

that staff feel able to challenge these safeguarding concerns without fear of being dismissed. I realised there was just not, there was something not quite right. When we would send children up for a nap time, he would keep them up there for well over the time limit that they should have been up there. There's a saying in the safeguarding training that I had done

that if you feel the ick, which is kind of if you don't feel comfortable, you've got to address it. I was basically told that I was imagining it and you've seen things you're probably not seeing. You've kind of put two and two together and it's not really what you think. At the time, I really kind of felt I was going a bit crazy. I was just constantly complaining. But if I was listened to and more vigorous check, on CCTV were done and the right questions were asked. I think it would be very different.

Now again, as you heard from Bessie there, it was only after the CCTV voltage was reviewed that his offences were uncovered. He was subsequently convicted of sexually abusing five young boys and sentenced to 30 years in prison. Now, Haley, following these high-profile cases, the government has made some changes to the nursery sector, some of which are coming into effect this month.

So can you explain to listeners to Women's Hour what the early years foundation stage framework is, first of all, and what the changes are? Yeah, so the early years foundation stage, the EYFS. It's essentially the rulebook that nurseries and childcare providers in England must follow. The changes that have come into force this month are designed to strengthen the safeguarding and improve consistency across all nurseries.

And there are a number of provisions, but one of the most significant reforms relates to sleep safety, which of course is particularly relevant to the cases we've been discussing this morning. So babies under 12 months old should now routinely sleep in cots rather than any alternative sleep equipment. And providers are expected to have clear policies on monitoring sleeping children and ensure that those safe sleep practices are being followed. Offsed also have to review the safe sleeping practices, which previously they didn't. There are also tighter recruitment requirements. Previously, some employees could begin

working under supervision without having the final stages of the DBS checks completed. Well, under this new framework, staff must have completed all the relevant suitability checks before working with children. The government's also strengthened expectations around the safeguarding culture and whistleblowing procedures to try and ensure that problems are escalated appropriately and quickly and staff feel like they can share any concerns that they have. And I mentioned this going into this piece, 3,000 extra surprise offsted visits will also begin from this month. Yeah, exactly. And parents and experts we spoke to think this is really important. So the government has provided an extra £8 million

of funding to significantly increase the number of unannounced offstead inspections. So that will be around 3,000 additional visits, as you say. That's roughly tripling the previous few years of visits. And the thinking behind this is that unannounced inspections provide a much more realistic snapshot of what day-to-day practice looks like inside the nurseries. So this compared to a visit where staff know they're coming, we've spoken to staff who tell us that they can hide practices and make it look good if they're given warning. And many of the campaigners and families we've spoken to welcome these changes.

But many also say the real test will be whether these reforms lead to any meaningful change on the ground. And for the parents at the centre of these stories, this isn't really about the policies or the inspection framework, it's about ensuring that babies and young children are safe when they're dropped off in the morning and that no other family has to go through what these families have been through. Haley, thank you so much. Haley Hustle, our reporter there. I just bring you this from the Department of Education. A spokesperson said nothing is more important than the safety and well-being of our children.

The vast majority of early years providers do a fantastic job, but we have strengthened the Early Years Foundation Stage Framework to ensure consistently high standards across the country and give parents confidence that children are safe, well cared for and getting the best possible start in life. Well, let's talk this through more and find out what it might mean for both nursery providers and families. I'm joined by two professionals in the sector. Jonathan Broadbury, Director of Policy and Communications and the National Day Nurseries Association, which is a national charity representing selected children's nursery across the UK.

Welcome, Jonathan. Good morning. And we've also got Zeri Raven with us, Chief Executive of Acorn Early Year. years, they are responsible for 18 nurseries in the South Midlands. Hello, Zoe. Hello. Let's start with you then, Zoe. Let's begin with sleep.

Haley mentioned there. There have been changes to which state the babies under 12 months. They must now sleep in cots in nursery settings. So what were you allowed to do and what will you have to do from now on? Well, not a lot has changed really. The changes in the YFAS have strengthened the clarity of what we can do. And I've been working in earlier for 37 years. So I've seen a lot of changes.

We used to have unannounced inspections. So that isn't a problem to have unannounced inspections. My problem is the changes. There's only one. And that is the stipulation that babies under 12 months have to sleep in a cot. Now, times have moved on. Once upon a time, we all had cots. A lot of us had sleep rooms.

We don't tend to have sleep rooms anymore because we want children to be supervised and visible and heard and checked very regularly. They're never left on their own. And in terms of safeguarding, going back to those horrific stories, it's all about developing a safeguarding culture and working practices where nobody is working alone working. CCTV isn't the answer. It's a, you know, post-mortem exercise really, although I could talk to you more about CCC. to be, but in terms of sleep, this stipulation that you can't put babies in what we use at the moment, which are, well, we have been using for under 12 months, they're called coracles. There's various other names, but they're mainly baby coracles.

They're like low floor beds with solid sides, but they are designed for nursery use for, I mean, most babies don't come to nursery until they're nine months old now because that's when the funding kicks in. That's where the biggest demand is. but now those nine-month-olds are going to have to go in a cot, even though some of them will never have slept in a cot at home. So that's going to freak them out. Okay, let me interject.

I mean, what we've been hearing about, though, in light of the deaths, the 14-month-old Noah Shibanda and nine-month-old Genevieve, Meehan, tragically died at their respective nurseries due to extremely unsafe sleeping practices. What else could the government do? Well, those have already been outlawed. So we were already not allowed to use beanbacks.

I mean, there's a very clear stipulation about the bedding needing to be flat, the cot sheet needs to be tight, you know, there's all those things that have already been in place. And the corocalls have been in place since 2012. And just to say to people, these are wooden, stackable sleep pods. So people who haven't heard that word before. Yeah, sleep pods. Yeah, sleep pods. They're low floor beds. They're count as floor beds.

And the bizarre thing is they're saying you've got to use cots. But their definition of cots includes travel cots, carry cots. and Moses baskets, which is ludicrous because caracots and Moses baskets are not designed for the age children we're looking after. We're looking after children mostly from nine months. And one of the lovely things about the coracles is that the babies into them, if they can show they want to sleep, they can't communicate verbally. So what they often do is, well, they will crawl into a coracle to show that they're tired and ready for asleep. The other lovely thing about them is you can take them outside. We do a lot of outside sleeping.

And to take up lots and lots of space for COTS, which are not in the best interest in children, is a big wrong step in my opinion. Having said that, I don't want to make it sound like I'm against any. OK, yeah, because I'm obviously, you're pro-safety and this is what the measures are about. I do understand the practicalities. Jonathan, let's bring you in. Is it possible, then, with this changes to sleep practice, that nurseries will have to restrict the number of places they can offer babies under 12 months? Yeah, it is possible. I think Zoe kind of touched on the difference that you would see between the smaller sleep beds that would be just on the floor versus I think everybody knows the sort of size of a cot and a travel cot.

So that takes up a lot more floor space. And the EYFS also regulates the amount of floor space that's necessary for children of certain ages. So I think one of the practical concerns for nurseries about this move is if they're moving from these things with the smaller footprint that can be cleared away so that children have lots of space to play and learn when they're not sleeping, then there is a practical consideration about capacity. We've spoken to a number of providers who've said, well, they might now have to take the decision of not. taking babies from nine months, as Zoe said, and actually waiting until they turn 12 months, at which point they can use floor mats or the coracle beds that have been described as well for those sleep spaces. So that is a consideration for providers. But I think, as Zoe was saying, everybody wants to see whatever works to keep children safer. But there's just those questions.

Well, let's move on. We've got a lot of ground to cover here. So with the new framework updated to prevent new employees from commencing employment before receiving their DBS check, their full DPS check. Is that a good thing? Well, yes and no. Obviously it's a good thing that people need to be fully DBS cleared. There is that slight problem in that people sometimes get stuck at stage four. And at the moment, we were allowed to have them under supervision,

which means close supervision. They're not ever left on their own, and now we're not allowed to. So somebody will have to now, what they'll probably do is they will wait to hand in their notice at their previous job before they hands in their notice. They'll wait to get their DVS clearance. And so it's going to slow down recruitment, which is going to be a problem. I mean, it's not a huge problem. Mostly, DVS clearances get through in time. We have to get references and other things as well.

But what I'd like to say is that all this stuff about doing, DBSs and I was horrified by the story where the guy who apparently had a DBS clearance turned out to have been on bail for an, I mean, that's just horrific. We tend to rely on us. But having a DBS clearance is not a guarantee that somebody is safe to work with children. That what's really important is the safeguarding culture. That horrific story in Bristol where somebody was raising a concern and was ignored, that's the sign of a culture. They had all the policies procedures. Cesar. TV. But the whistleblowing culture wasn't embedded and that's far more important. Yes, the DBS is important but that's like having a driving test before you go on the roads. It's not guarantee you're not going to be an unsafe driver. Let's just put that. I think the point you're raising, Jonathan, this BBC investigation in recent months revealed that Christian Parry, who was a nursery worker in Leeds, was arrested for downloading in decent images of children, yet was able to get another childcare job. Now, his arrest was not reflected in the DBS update system because

that only searches for pre-conviction information every nine months, leaving potential employers unaware. He's now in jail, but I guess the question is, the people listening to, this is how fit for purpose is the DBS check system in your opinion? Well, that is a crucial question because obviously nurseries have their own policies and procedures, but they are also reliant on the network of support around them. And one of those things are the, you know, DBS checks. And yet it's a worrying situation that somebody who can be, who is out on police bail with a condition attached to that bail that they not work with children, that somehow

that information did not come out of a DBS check using what's called the update service. So the update service is supposed to be instant, you know, information for those people who are registered on it so that providers know straight away. what is on that person's record. The fact that crucial information is not coming up through that. We're actually advising providers at the moment until we see changes and reassurances around the DBS update service that actually they do need to go through the full check.

Now that takes time. It costs more money. But that's the way that you make sure you've got the most accurate information. Let's move on to CCTV. Zoe, the use of CCTV in nursery settings, currently under review by the government. As we've heard from Haley, our reporter this morning, CCTV footage has been used to identify serious harm,

which has taken place in nurseries. It's secured convictions. I understand you were initially against usage of CCTV in settings, but you've changed your mind. Why? Yeah, the first 30 years of running nurseries, I was absolutely adamant. No, no, don't want CCTV in my nurseries

because I felt it undermined staff professionalism and trust in them. and I didn't want managers sat in offices looking at screens. I want them in the rooms, in and out of the rooms, to see practice for themselves. Then we thought we'd trial it, because one of the things with all these awful stories is that I have to satisfy myself, think, how can I be certain that one of those awful stories couldn't happen in one of my nurseries? I've got a board of trustees who are similarly anxious to be reassured that nothing like that could happen. Now, as we've heard, some of those awful cases, they've had CCTV.

It hasn't prevented those things happening. But I'm an absolute convert now because in the first week that we tried it in one nursery, a child had a feebrile convulsion, which we were then able to review the footage of what led up to it, how the child was, how long it lasted, all that stuff, which was very reassuring for the parents to view and for us to view and review. We've also had cases where there's been, because we do have a very strong safeguarding culture and strong whistleblowing culture that I check with every individual member staff and we've got over 550 as part of their induction, how would they whistleblow, what circumstances, what would they do if it was the manager, somebody senior, even me.

I quiz them about that to make sure that I know they understand whistleblowing. So we do get accusations about, oh, this person grabbed a child. But in these cases now, we can review. the CCTV to say, well, did they or were they grabbing the child because that child was about to bite another child or whack another child? So, you know, you can see the circumstances in which those things happen. And we did have a really worrying case where a child had an injury, which could have been suspicious, but we were able to review the CCTV for the whole day. Every nappy change, the child didn't cry, she was happy. And then later on in the day,

slipped on a bike and had a straddle injury. You know, she fell on the bike. of the bike. And that's that sort of, nobody'd noticed that because she hadn't cried or anything like that. But on the CCTV, we're able to see exactly what had happened. And that that was the likely cause of bruising. So very useful. Let me just put this back to Jonathan. There is an argument, Jonathan, that it doesn't get to the root of the problem, as we've already heard from Zoe, but she's outlined why she thinks it's strong, a strong tool to have in your armoury. What about the rights of privacy for the children or the staff in the, settings. Would you say the overall safety of children just outweighs all of that?

Well, I think the important thing that you've just said there is that CCTV is a tool. So it's not a silver bullet that will fix everything. It can be a very useful tool as part of that that wider safeguarding culture that needs to happen. And if other things aren't working well around that, then the CCTV, as we've seen tragically in some of those cases that were mentioned, it shows what had happened, but it didn't prevent it from happening. And that's actually the culture in a nursery that can do that with or without CCTV. You asked about privacy. I think it does throw up one really challenging aspect for nurseries, which is parents can make then, under data protection laws, they can make a subject access request because CCTV is gathering

data on their children. But then obviously it's also gathering a lot of data on other children. So it can be a really practical headache for nurseries about how you then can share images whilst not, you know, whilst not infringing on the privacy and the rights of other children that will be in that footage. So it is a practical headache. But, you know, these are things that people are working through to try and, you know, to try and resolve because people do recognize that it can be a really important tool, but we would say it's not the be-all and end-all and actually culture rather than cameras is what is critical for keeping children safe. A good note to end on Jonathan. Thanks so much. Both of you for joining us on Warman's Hour. Jonathan at Broadbury,

Director of Policy and Communications and National Day Surgeries Association, even, and Zoe Raven, Chief Executive of Acorn Early Years, 18 nurseries in the South Midlands. It is important to stress so that the vast majority of early years settings are very safe. Happy environments, but basically that's what we have to underline because we don't want to worry you, give you any undue concern, but those stricter observations and requirements coming in this week. And just to say, the manufacturers of dream coracles, these stackable cots, have given us this statement.

The company is called Community Playthings, and they say, we support the effort to promote safer sleep. Good nurseries want sleep products that were specifically designed for use in the early years environment. Over 3,000 settings have been using the Dream Corracle without any reported safety incidents. And three independent product testing companies have confirmed it is safe for babies over six months old. So there we go. You are listening to Women's Hour. Your sales order says one thing.

Your inventory says another. Your spreadsheet says good luck. Odu brings your business together on a single platform, from sales and accounting to inventory and marketing. Visit Odu.com to book a demo. It's ODbh-O.com. Get more with BBC Podcasts, wherever you listen. Be the first to listen to your favorite shows, like Evil Genius, Good, Bad Billionaire, and You're Dead to Me, with a subscription to BBC Podcasts Premium on Apple Podcasts. You can also enjoy a range of our podcasts ad-free with an Amazon music subscription. Now, as we've already been hearing this morning on Radio 4,

creating, created rather, nearly 1,000 years ago, the 70 metre biotapestry tells the story of the Norman invasion of England. In 1066, whilst it chronicles kings, battles and political upheaval, the tapestry also raises fascinating questions about the women who may have created it, as well as the largely untold experiences of women living through one of the most dramatic turning points in British history and its own. Aftermath. Hitchett shed some lights on what it was like to be a woman in Norman Brisson, our historian, Dr. Emily A. Winker, author of Pocket Bayer Tapestry. Welcome to the program. And author Claire Fuge, whose novel The Siren's Daughter tells the extraordinary story of real-life Welsh princess, Nest Furch-Rees. Welcome both of you.

Thank you. Good morning. Great to have you on the program. Emily, let us start with the Bea Tapestry. Let's go back to basics. Who made it? it, why do they make it? So thanks, Claire, those are great questions. And we know that it was, it was almost certainly made by women in southern England. So working on textiles and embroidery was something that, that women at all levels of society would have done.

As far as whose idea was it, that's something that we don't know. The most likely candidate is William the Conqueror's brother, Odo of Bayeux, who was part of the Norman invading force and ended up holding a lot of lands in southeastern England. But there are other candidates as well. It's possible that the king, Edward the Confessor's widow, Edith, might have been involved in creating a textile that remembered the events of the Norman conquest and the English element in it. There's also a suggestion that the monks of Canterbury might have been involved. So it's an ongoing, ongoing mystery.

Yeah, there are just four women represented in this 70-meter-long embroidery. So how are they depicted? What do they tell us about women's involvement in all of this? Yeah, so there are not many, not many shown, but the insights they offer us are quite interesting. So there's one who's, who's not identified, who's part of a story and a fable in the border. That's a scene that looks like it might be sexually explicit, but we don't know what it means. As far as the women in the main text, in the main scene of the tapestry, there are three of them. The first one is a woman named Elfjava, and we don't know who she is. That's the tapestry's biggest mystery.

She's set in a scene that looks like it might be a discussion between Harold and William about the future of the succession in England. So she might have been part of a marriage alliance discussion that didn't work out and didn't prevent conquest, there's also a scene showing us Edith, who was probably being appointed the regent by Edward the confessor, and on his deathbed, he's dying, asking Harold to, he's shaking hands with Harold, and Edith is there at the foot of the bed, perhaps getting ready to look after the kingdom after his death. And the final woman, and this is really the most moving scene, is a woman who is holding the

hand of her child and they're leaving their home because it's being set on fire by the Normans who've just invaded. And you can see her hand reaching out towards this Norman arsonist who is ignoring her. But it's really the one moment that shows us a desire of a woman to protect her child and to defend the kingdom. And this one scene is quite a powerful one. Just to say, as part of Radio Force Day of programs, reassessing the impact. of the Norman Conquest. We've got a play later this afternoon imagined by Jonathan Meissen's latest drama, Edith Swan Neck

and the Bayer Tapestry, and that at two o'clock today, and that is all about the theory behind the making of the Bayer Tapestry. So that's a drama this afternoon. Claire, let's bring you in. Your new novel, The Siren's Daughter. It actually focuses on real-life Welsh princess Nest, Furch, Rhys, who lived during and after the Norman invasion of Wales, which happened 20 years after the Battle of Hastings.

So you very much imagine what life was like for women then. Why did that period fascinate you? Why write a novel about it? Well, I think, you know, we've discussed what happened to the men on the battlefield. I think it's then a really interesting question of, you know, once the Normans had conquered the country, you know, what then happened to the women? And the answer in a lot of cases is that they married them

in order to get access to inherit the wealth and the lands. So the story of Nest or Nestor as I talk about in my book, she was a princess in the West Welsh Kingdom of De Habeath, which was overrun by the Normans in the late 1090s. At that time, most of her family were killed or mutilated or sent into exile. And she herself was taken to the court of William Rufus as a captive child. And as she grew up, she had this just extraordinary tumultuous life. She had a very high profile affair.

she was forced into a series of political marriages with the Norman arsonists of her kingdom. And then she experienced a very dramatic abduction. And in fact, her abduction was the source of a war between England and Wales, which is why, in fact, she's known in history as the sort of Helen of Wales, you know, after Helen of Troy. And she's the siren in my book, The Siren's daughter. I mean, there's a quote in your book. Your character, Esther, describes her attraction to King Henry by saying,

every man I had met with one exception had treated me like an object to be hoarded or traded a possession, a prize nothing. And yet she had this particular attraction and relationship with King Henry. Was it a matter of survival?

That's just what you had to do. You could be an independent woman, know your own mind, but to survive, you were traded like that. Yes, yes. And it's interesting that Emily referred to the woman in the Bayer Tapestry who was the subject of a marriage alliance. I mean, that was absolutely

how it worked. You know, and I really wanted in my depiction of Nest, not to, you know, I love the historical romance, but I wanted to create a more real depiction of what it really is like to marry someone who's been, you know, directly or indirectly involved in the conquest of your kingdom, or in Nestor's case, the killing of some of her family,

to marry them, to have children with them, to see the children being brought up as Normans, and then what does that do to your relationship with your children? and how do you navigate the complete reversal of society after the Norman conquest? Emily, let's get into that then. How common was it? I guess it was pretty common. Yes, absolutely.

And it's interesting that you could see women in England and Wales navigating this situation. I mean, one thing we see in England is that even if some of these women were bringing up children who would inherit from their Norman father, they'd be learning the English language from their mothers. So even if some women's property was really the subject of their husbands and sons, there were other ways in which they could influence their children's upbringing. It's also interesting that women were really responsible for preserving the memory of their family as well as their husband's family. This is really most visible at the level of elite women because they're the best documented

but they're interesting stories in Wales and England of women passing on the stories of their own family and their husband's family to their children, sometimes in ways that encourage their children to act and sometimes in ways that would inspire monks to go and document the history of colonisation and conquest. And is that clear why you thought it was so important because four women in the Bayer Tapestry,

it's about a battle, understandably, so it's a majority male. But I guess there isn't enough record of these women and how they lived at that time and how they survived that difficult moment in history where you had to, as you say, marry, sleep, live with your conquerors and have your children brought up in that culture?

Yeah, and so, you know, the kind of heart of my book is really about, you know, the mother-daughter relationship and how they navigate the fact that they've basically been born into opposite sides of what was a brutal war of conquest. And, you know, the divided loyalties are extraordinary and the dilemmas that some of these women faced. So at one point in Nesta's life, she's locked in a castle and going on outside is a three-way battle between the rebels who are led by her brother, the Normans who are led by her husband and the father of some of her children,

and a rogue Welsh prince who is also her ex-lover, who is also the father of one of her children, who is representing the interests of the King of England, who is also her ex-lover and the father of another one of her And how do you be that person and have those incredibly conflicting loyalties and how do you navigate that life? I just thought was a fascinating question. It really is. And it's brilliant that you've documented it in a fantastic book. Just finally, Emily, how much did life change then for women after the Norman conquest? I mean, was there any kind of improvement in their lot?

What do we know about it? So as far as 1066 as this transformative. moment, it's not clear that that as an event itself really changed things for women. I mean, I think this is a case where we want to think about women as the question and the category in which there are many, many different individuals in different situations. So, for, I mean, for example, among peasant women, they might have seen very little change. There were some changes in discussions about whom they could marry. This was often controlled. by their lord. There was a gradual trend towards listening more to their own preferences,

but that was a general trend, not really caused by the conquest. They didn't necessarily see much difference except to whom their taxes went to at the upper levels of society. And there are other changes that took place in structures around marriage, for example. So marriage became in some ways more strict. There was there was there was there was less of a sense that that that that you could have one life partner as Harold did. You mentioned edis Edis von Neck earlier. It would be reasonable in today's language to say that that she was his partner. But within about a hundred years, churchmen who were writing about their relationship didn't really know what to call her. Was she a mistress or a concubine because they hadn't been married in a church so they were a bit

flummoxed by this. So but but these were all part of trends. were happening across Europe. And I think it's a bit of a reminder that the Norman Conquest was a dramatic event. It changed many people's lives, but also looking at things in the wider North Sea zone and changes that were happening across Europe. The situation for individual women really depended a lot on their family, how much wealth they had and where they were at the time. Well, it's a fascinating period, and we thank you both so much for documenting so we can learn more about it. Thank you so much for dropping by Dr. Emily A. Winker, of a pocket bay a tapestry, Claire Fuge as well,

whose novel The Siren's Daughter, is out now? It is, and it's a fantastic read. And the British Museum exhibition opens 10th of September, 26. So you can see the tapestry. Tapestry ends 11th of July, 2027. Tickets are sold out until the end of this year, but tickets for January to March. Sales reopen on October the 21st,

and more will be on sale in January for later in 2027. Thank you both so much. for coming in. It is Woman's Out on Radio 4. We're going to talk about car mechanics now and loads of you getting in touch with your car tails when you've actually managed to sort out a problem yourselves or somebody else has come to your rescue. Anita, this is a great one. Many years ago I broke down in the middle of Naples driving a right-hand car drive. The throttle went slack, engine idling, looked under the bonnet, no previous experience, no mobile phone to call for help, saw a cable hanging. fished in my handbag, found a paperclip, joined the cable to the carburetta, question mark, and drove home. My husband was flabbergasted. Anita, thank you for that. And this texter, my sisters and I passed our driving tests in the early 80s. We wanted to be independent and tried to enroll on an evening class for basic car mechanics at the local college.

The two male instructors refused to enroll us. They claimed we had no interest in the subject and claimed that we were merely hunting for men. Just for the record, we were two very attractive young women who were highly sought after in the town we lived in, how we laughed. Thank you so much for that. Keep those texts coming in 84844. And the reason we are asking you about your car tails is this, because for many of us, opening the bonnet of a car can be a bit daunting.

So how would you feel about checking the oil, jumpstarting a flat battery? Maybe you are actually, though, self-taught. Maybe you had someone in your life who passed on those valuable skills, One of my next guest says too many women simply haven't been taught these skills and she's decided to do something about it. She's Dr Louise Wilcott, an NHS doctor and lifelong car enthusiast who recently launched a business called the Women's Auto Academy running women-only workshops teaching basic car maintenance.

Welcome to the program. Hi, hi, thank you for having me. And we've also got Maria McCarthy here. She's a motoring journalist and contributing editor for online car marketplace car cow. Hello, Maria. Hello. So Louise, let's start with you. You sound like a very useful individual.

Where did you learn your car skills from? I'm not sure we can hear Louise, actually. Can you hear me, Louise? Are you still there? We heard her. She said hello and she left. We'll try and reconnect with Louise. Maria, let's throw a question your way, first of all.

It's as much needed, isn't it? Because, I mean, it's gendered, isn't it? car skills don't often get passed on to girls in families? That's right. I think what can often happen is you end up in a situation where a man might look at his children and think, well, I need to teach my son about how to, you know, care for his car. But with his daughter, you'll think, I'll do it. I'll change her oil. You know, I'll help her. And he thinks in the moment that he's, you know, being a good dad. But in actual fact, it's far better to empower children and to, you know, to give them those essential.

skills. And I think another thing is that often fathers might not even know those skills themselves these days. Because when I was young, there were an awful lot of men working in manufacturing, they were quite practical, whereas now we're in a situation where we've got more service jobs. So, you know, you might not have those skills yourself even to pass on. And also the technology in cars now very often doesn't require you to know that. That's right. I mean, you can look under the bonnet. And years ago, you know, you'd sort of see where somebody was sort of get in there with the spanners, you know, whereas now an awful lot it is sealed off. But there is so much a case for, you know, being able to deal with it because, you know,

there are things you can do and that you should do, like, you know, check the various levels, such as windstream wipers and so forth, checker oil. So, you know, although, you know, cars have change, it's still really important to have those skills. It certainly is. I think we've got Dr. Louise Willcott back. Can you hear me? I can. Can you hear me?

Oh, I can hear you loud and clear. fantastic. So you decide, no, don't worry about it. You decided to set up women-only workshops. What was the inspiration for that? I think it was, having been working on cars myself for years and years, I'm always the person that people call if they get in trouble, they get stuck, they break down. It's often me that they call and I go out to help them. And I kind of realised how many women don't know the basics. And last year, year my best friend Sophie rang me,

she was trying to put air in her tires and she'd accidentally let all of the air out of her tires. And I kind of realised, okay, there's definitely a knowledge gap here where people just don't get to talk these things. Women don't get to talk these things, like you say. And I thought, well, I'm going to do something about it. And I know another really sad tale I'm reading that a friend of you rang you in tears because her dad had died

and it was always her dad that she would ring to ask her advice when she was in a bit of a fix. Yeah, and I think that's a lot of people can relate to that where they call their dad or their partner or their brother or whoever it is for advice. But what if that person's not available or they do unfortunately pass away or something like that? And then you're stuffed and you're in such a vulnerable position as a woman.

You know, if you're sat at the side of the road and you're stuck, it is a very vulnerable position to be in and it can be really scary. Yeah. What are you offering then? Is it the basics? Is it something more advanced? What's on the menu? Well, I'm trying to steer away from saying basics because it's actually not basic.

If nobody's ever taught you, it's not basic at all. But it's everyday stuff. So all of the everyday maintenance that everybody should be doing to increase the lifespan of their car and then also the kind of emergency breakdown stuff. So changing a wheel, repairing a puncture,

jump-starting a flat battery, all of those kind of car first aid things, if you like. Yeah. And Maria, just to bring you back in, since 2003, the UK driving test does require some mechanical knowledge, doesn't it? You can be asked how you check engine oil, coolant, tyre pressure. So it is valuable information, isn't it? It is. It's really great that that's been brought in.

And I do see it as a positive step. And I do think actually it could be improved. You know, you could actually have more of that information before you pass your driving test. But the fact is, you'll have been taught how to answer those questions by your. driving instructor on their car and then you might not have actually driven for quite a while. Often people will sort of like pass their driving test and then like not drive like six years because they can't afford a car. And so then when you're there with your actual car, the whole thing can be forgotten. It can feel very unfamiliar, which is why courses like Louise

I think are so valuable. And Louise, there's a bit of a crossover, isn't there, with your day job and opening the bonnet of. of the car, the human body and the mechanics of a car? I keep telling people, and I suppose people probably think I'm mad, but a car and the human body are actually very similar, and they work in very similar ways. You know, the systems that the human body works with are very similar to the systems of a car,

which might sound silly, but, you know, you've got a brain, a car's got a computer that controls its engine. It's the same thing. Let's talk about reactions to women in the industry. Maria, having a bit of knowledge, Even going into a garage, I guess, puts you on the front foot, doesn't it? Because a lot of women listening to this, myself included, going into garages, you sometimes think, am I being taken for a bit of a ride here?

And maybe that's my fault, because I don't have enough understanding or knowledge. But it's empowering, isn't it, to know more? Exactly. I think a lot of the time it can feel like you're going into like Mordor or something, going into a garage. It can feel quite daunting. So I think there's two steps, really. One is be prepared before you even step foot across the threshold.

You know, do some research about the garage. You know, has it got good reviews and so forth? Ask around among friends who are local. One of the problems of the garage industry is that there isn't, unfortunately, an overwhelming trade body, a unique trade body that people can sign up to. There's lots of little trade bodies. So see if they've signed up to one and if it's affiliated with the Trading Standards Association, you know, because that will help as well.

And then when you actually get there, you know, be confident. You know, you have every right to be there. You know, lots of us have to be environments which aren't very familiar to us. And, you know, explain what's wrong with your car. And I think one of the really useful things to do is you need to get quotes for any work. You need to get it in writing. And you need to make sure it includes the VAT. And ask them to explain things to you about your car.

And if they are open and friendly and happy to chat, that's a really good sign. If they're a bit sort of like, you know, oh, well, you know, that's all a bit complicated. Don't worry your head. Then that is a bit of a sort of a garage equivalent to a red flag. Yeah. Because I think in the motoring industry, you know, as women, it is important that whether it's like, you know, car dealerships or, you know, garages, that they are willing to be open

to women and to make them feel comfortable. I mean, research by Carwai showed that, you know, six in ten women feel that they are, you know, discriminated against an account. car room situation. It's more angled towards men. So I think that, you know, by willing to take up space and to ask questions and to walk away from places that don't treat you with respect, that's one of the way we can improve the garage situation. Final word to you, Louise, the courses that you've run so far, I know it's a new thing, but are you finding women are rolling up their sleeves, loving it, throwing themselves into it? Absolutely. I've been blown away

by how everybody wants to get so stuck in on the workshops, but also, you know, you know, You know, at the end of the day, every single time people are saying, well, what's next? What's the next step? What can I do? Can you teach me how to change my brakes? Can you teach me how to do a service? And all of these extra things. When they started the day with no knowledge whatsoever about anything to do with the car.

And it just goes to show that these things are for women. You know, the stereotype is that it's for men and that's a man's job. But it's just not the case because as soon as these women are getting stuck in on my workshops, They want more and they want to be more independent and more self-sufficient with it. Brilliant stuff. Thank you so much for joining us both of you. That's Dr. Louise Wilcott, NHS Doctor. And as you heard, she's just launched the Women's Auto Academy.

Maria McCarthy, motoring journalist, contributing editor for online car. Marketplace Car Wow. Now, let's talk about women in the film industry. They're being squeezed out as they struggle to progress beyond their first films. That is according to the director. of the upcoming BFI at London Film Festival, Christy Matheson. She's just unveiled this year's program

and women have directed just two of its 21 high-profile Gala Films. So what can be done to help female directors go beyond being one-hit wonders? Christy Matheson joins us now. Welcome to the program. Thanks so much for having me.

Okay, what's going wrong? I mean, we talk about this a lot. There's not enough women directors, but you're saying they're getting through the door and then they're not staying in the room. So why is that happening? I mean, I think there's many factors. First up, it's incredibly hard for anyone to get a film made.

So I think we have to acknowledge that it's an incredibly difficult pursuit for anyone to make a film. But I do think that, you know, obviously films cost a lot of money to make. So it's really about who people are putting their investment in. And I think certainly we're seeing. you know, we're seeing less and less women get that investment after that first film. A lot of women are going to film schools. A lot of women are making short films.

But there does seem to be a drop-off. So I do think that there is some mechanism there where we're just not seeing those opportunities advancing. Just for the record, you would be putting these films on if they were being made. I mean, we are certainly, you know, we have a terrific selection of female filmmakers in the program this year. But I do think, you know, as a festival, we can only work with the films that are being made. So, you know, there is definitely something upstream. You know, we are seeing more films from men every year, certainly in our selection. I mean, 43% of the films in your festival are made by female filmmakers, as we said, two of the 21 gala films are directed by women.

So tell us about those two films. Yeah, so we have a terrific film called Being Human and this is by a director called Sean Hedder. And many people will remember their previous film, which was called Coda, which was a huge hit, did very well at the Academy Awards. And so this is a really great example of, okay, you have a filmmaker, they make a really smash hit. And so we see them again. And this film is also a film that's very interesting. It's about Judith Human, who is often credited as the mother of disability in the USA. And so it's a biopic.

It's a really big-scale film. It's a period drama. So, you know, there are definitely encouraging signs there. And we also have another film, Prima Faso, which is starring Cynthia Areva, when it is the screen adaptation of the hit play. And so, again, you have a filmmaker there in Senator White, who is, you know, very seasoned filmmaker. And so it's great to see these two films, which are both very large-scale films.

There will be films in the awards race for sure. So that's very heartening. Could you not have chosen more female directed films for those gala slots? Or does it have to be a film with a certain budget and with a certain profile of actor in it? How do you make those decisions? These are certainly elements that come into that element of curating that section of the festival. But I think overall, you know, we've just come off, you know, many months. So we've been watching films all year since January.

And we've seen a lot of great films by women, and a lot of those are in our program. But if I look at the numbers, we just don't see as many. So I think often the fate of this is laid at the door of, say, a festival director or someone who books a cinema, but we are obviously responding to what is out there in the world, and we certainly just don't see as many films. So you said you've got to go upstream.

Is there an argument for somebody like, you leading woman in the industry that goes to those people, goes to those finances, financiers and says, let's come to the BFI, let's have a conversation about this. You know, you need to show us the money. Could you put, could you exert influence in that way? I mean, I think as, I think as film programmers, we can exert influence in, in what we're choosing to select. And I think, you know, certainly we look at the way cinema going, you know, cinema audiences behave. And, you know, there's great stories out there. I mean, if you think about, you know, the summer of Barbenheimer, you know, Greta Goeweig topples, almost Christopher Nolan with Barbie. She's coming back early next year with a huge scale film.

She's bringing Narnia to the screen. So I also think it's about us as consumers. It's about us as programmers making good choices, but also as consumers, I think, you know, we can definitely show our financiers what we want to see. And so I would encourage people really to look a little deeper and make some smart choices in what they're watching. I guess we can only make those choices if they're there to be made, though. That is the question. Listen, Kirsty, thank you so much for joining us, Kirsty Matheson,

who is Christy, sorry. I got all through that without Cornyu, Kirsty. Christy Matheson, who is the director of the BFI London Film Festival, which gets underway next month. It runs from the 7th to the 18th of October. Thank you for all of your texts this morning on all manner of topics. Some fantastic text coming in on your car tails. I'm 51 when I learned to drive at the age of 17.

My dad made sure that I knew how to change a wheel, how to jumpstart a car. He would not let me drive a car without knowing those basic things. I've experienced it horrendous chauvinistic treatment from car dealers and service engineers who think I'm stupid and they pretend they've done the work on my car and I know they haven't. Lots of stories coming in like that.

Thank you so much for all your contributions this morning. Tomorrow on Women's Hour, two mothers will share their stories as they prepare for the official launch on Saturday of the Sussex Maternity Review into Maternity Failings as well. And the journalist Tansy Hoskins on charity shop culture, a fascinating book.

She'll join us live, but that's it from Woman's Hour. That's all from today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. The Moral Mays on BBC Radio 4. I've never been more concerned about the future of humanity than I am now. Examining one of the week's main news stories through an ethical lens. If we don't do something, millions will die, billions will die. That's the state of play here.

Sometimes combative, sometimes provocative, always engaging. I'd like to go one level deeper and talk about your fundamental moral commitments. Do you have any? The new series of The Moral Maze with me, Michael Burke, from BBC Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Sounds. Get more with BBC podcasts, wherever you listen. Be the first to listen to your favourite shows, like Evil Genius, Good, Bad Billionaire, and You're Dead to Me, with a subscription to BBC Podcasts Premium on Apple Podcasts.

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