Woman's Hour - 03/10/2025

Episode Date: October 3, 2025

Women's voices and women's lives - topical conversations to inform, challenge and inspire.

Hi, I'm Nula McGovern, and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. While you're here, I wanted to let you know about the Woman's Hour Guide to Life, your toolkit for the juggle, the struggle, and everything in between. Life is complicated and often incredibly busy, so whether you're fixing a problem, at one of life's crossroads, or just looking to shake things up a bit, this is the guide you'll need to help you survive and even thrive. Each episode brings together world-class experts with women

sharing their honest, powerful stories, offering real insight and also practical tips that really work. From work and career to relationships and family issues, the focus is on helping you grow, also adapt and overcome life's curved walls. First up, friendship. How to stay connected with friends when life feels like a never-ending to-do list.

Join us only on BBC Sounds, But now, back to today's Women's Hour. Good morning and welcome to the program. We will be reflecting how the Jewish community are feeling after the horrendous attack outside Heaton Park Synagogue in Manchester yesterday where two people were killed and others injured. If you'd like to share what conversations

are taking place in your household today, then please get in touch in the usual way. The text number is 84844. Also, Melinda French Gates is here to tell me about her new philanthropic endeavor which focuses on women's health. Melinda went through a big change when she divorced her husband, Bill Gates, and I'll be asking her about this new chapter of her life.

Also this morning, I'd like to ask you to share stories of your own great moments of change. Change is inevitable. It happens to all of us. But what did you discover about yourself when unexpected change happened in midlife? What did it lead to, and what did you discover about yourself? Changing career. Maybe you change friends, marriage, divorce, children. children, no children, death, huge moments in our later lives.

Whatever your experiences, then get in touch in the usual way, the text number 84844. You can email me by going to our website and our WhatsApp number is 0,700-100-444. And gold is getting more expensive. What does this mean for those in the jewellery industry and those of us buying it? Here's looking at you, Asia. If you do come from a gold buying culture, what does it mean to you? The text number once again 84844

And as we've just heard in the news It's just been announced in the past few minutes Dame Sarah Mullali 63 years old has been appointed the Archbishop of Canterbury designeate The first woman ever to hold the role A big story for Women's Hour

And something we will be returning to But first Melinda French Gates Is the most well-known and powerful woman in philanthropy She co-founded the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation in 2000 as to date, donated over $100 billion to charitable projects.

Born in Texas to a Catholic family, her father an aerospace engineer, Melinda was taught computer science at her all-girls school. She earned a bachelor's degree in computer science and economics from Duke University in 1986. After getting her MBA, she started at Microsoft as one of the few female managers at the company. After just a few years, she became the general manager of information products. She and Bill Gates married in 1994 and divorced in 2021 after 27 years.

She's since left their joint enterprise and set up her own pivotal ventures, which has one purpose to put power into the hands of women. Well, given that, we're better for her to speak about it than here on Woman's Hour. Melinda, welcome to the program. Thanks for having me, Anita. How are you feeling this morning? Fantastic. Good. We like to hear that.

Now, you want to put power back into the hands of women. Why? Because I think women have, we all have power inside of ourselves. And yet we just as a world have not invested enough in women. And it's, you know, there have been for a long time big headwinds against women getting to their equal place in society. And those headwinds have gotten stronger. And so I feel there's something we should do about it. I can do something about it. I'm lucky enough to be a philanthropist.

So I am. So your company, Pivotal, along with the non-profit welcomely committed $100 million, specifically to women's health research, promising to deliver in years, not decades. So tell me more about this. What women are you looking to help? And why have you focused on health care? Well, because for a woman, a woman has to be well, to do well in life, right? And yet if you look at all scientific research and funding that has gone to women's health,

In my country, that's the National Institutes of Health, billions of dollars, 1% has gone towards women's health. And yet women spend nine years of their life in poorer health compared to men. And those aren't just the end of life. That's in her most productive years. So we should invest in this so women can be well so they can do anything they want. 1%. 1%. And if you look at venture capital funding in my country that goes to new innovations in any

area, 2% goes towards women's health. And yet, think about it. Women we know, the biggest disease we face is cardiovascular disease. We're 50% more likely to be misdiagnosed after a heart attack. And we don't even invest in things like, or very, very little, in menopause. Half our entire population of the world will go through menopause. I think there's a lot we could learn about that. Finally, finally, as culturally, we're able to even talk about men. menopause without feeling shame. It's ridiculous. We go through it.

It happens to us. In fact, just last week, I had the new head of the Crick Institute, which is a big biomedical global research center that's opened here in London. And Edith Hurd, who is leading it, was on. And she said, you know, it's only in the last hundred years that we're really looking at women's health. Before that, it was just everything was focused on the uterus. Right. And think about it.

We've expected women to just deal with pain and suffering. Do you know of chronic diseases, there are about 140 chronic diseases, 80% disproportionately affect women. I think we should know something more about those diseases. I think you're absolutely right about that. You also acknowledge just how little has been done in this regard. So how do you expect results in years, not decades? How are you going to expediate this? Well, this $100 million between Welcome Leap and myself, first of all, let me be very clear.

This is a drop in the bucket. We need hundreds of millions, if not billions, in women's research. But I'm hoping to stimulate others to come into this area. But this particular model they have and have used now for a number of years in other medical cases, we know they send out proposals. They get responses very quickly. They go through the responses within weeks, not years. And then within months, they're outdoing the research to then get to bench science

where we can actually put something on. the market. So they have a proven model and we're using it again, and this time for women's health. We can't talk about women's health right now without discussing the recent news from the US. So in recent weeks, you are aware, President Donald Trump has said that taking Tylenol, a brand of paracetamol, is linked to a very increased risk of autism in children. What was your reaction to this news? We should not mix politics and science. My question to the news is follow your doctor's advice. Yeah, he also singled out the M.M. vaccine for measles, mumps and rebella, which is given to babies.

He said it should be given in single dose rather than a combined shot and that he heard a lot of bad things about it over the years. This is echoes of the completely discredited claims of Andrew Wakefield, the British doctor who was struck off for the UK's Medical Register for his unethical research and his debunked claims that linked the MMR jab to autism. What those claims did lead to over is a huge increase in vaccine hesitancy. Through the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, you focused on vaccine development, particularly for children.

With this in mind, how concerned were you by this claim? Deeply concerned. You know, I worked at the Gates Foundation for over 25 years and sat at many, many tables with medical researchers, with scientists. It took so long to debunk that claim. And it was science that proved that claim is not right. And yet, something like measles, mumps, and rebella, that saves children's lives.

I have traveled all over the globe. Lucky enough to do that for the Gates Foundation. Women and men stand in line in the heat in places all over the world because they know those vaccines save lives. Children are dying in my own country because of that bad news because measles, children die of it. That just shouldn't be. I must say the medicines writer, the MHRA has confirmed

that taking paracetam or during pregnancy remains safe and there is no evidence it causes autism in children and President Trump's claims on vaccines have been roundly rejected and condemned. You said in a recent interview, Melinda, you don't think it'd be worth your time meeting the president.

How do you feel about the direction your country's going in right now and why wouldn't it be worth your time to meet him? Well, let me be clear. I met with him during the first administration and to discuss with him family planning, which I was deeply involved and have been with the foundation. And that didn't lead to any results. And so,

you know, I believe in meeting with leaders, which I have done all over the world for a long time, on things that matter and where we can get results. And so many of the things that I am hearing coming out of health and human services in the United States don't make any sense, but I don't feel I can change his mind. So I'm not going to waste my time. You can circumnavigate. Absolutely. We have a legislature. We have a Congress. Now, are they standing up to him in every situation? Absolutely not, but are they standing up to him in some? Yes. So I go where I feel I can be most effective. Does all your hard work and investment feel almost redundant, though, given his current point of view? He closed the U.S. Agency for International Development earlier this year, for example. And, you know, the U.S. cuts to foreign aid directly, and I know you're probably aware of all of this, impacting women's lives.

Countries across Africa are running out of contraceptives. It's unbelievable. I mean, it's unbelievable. And what I know is that that aid has been effective. Children's lives have been saved. Women have not died in childbirth because of those investments by the U.S. government, the U.K. government, so many. And so to me, it makes my work, I can never replace the size of government money. That's billions and billions of dollars of funding. But it makes my work all the more imperative. And it means I need to try and draw more people in to focus on women's health or to focus on children's health or maternal mortality. I want to ask you about being a female leader now, particularly now that you don't have a husband's that you're in meetings with. Are you treated differently? Have you seen a change?

I think the changes are even more in myself. I'm all the more self-confident in my decisions. Look, again, I sat at that table for over 25. years in the Gates Foundation. But now I have my full voice. I'm not sharing it with somebody else. I'm not waiting for their questions. I'm not responding to their questions. I know how I want to invest my money. And so I feel I've stepped into my full power. And that feels great because I can be a fully integrated person. I can say what I believe. I can invest where I believe. I can use my voice the way I'm saying to my son and my daughters. Use your voice in society. Stand up for what

believe in. How quickly did that change happen? I would say it took a little bit of time. I was certainly ready for it. But, you know, again, I've been conditioned to something for over 25 years. And so, you know, it took, I would say maybe a year for me to say, okay, no, no, no, no, I've got this. I've totally got this. Your most recent book, The Next Day, is all about transitions. It covers the death of a dear friend, becoming a mother, your divorce. And you say in it that growth really happened when you turned 60? How? I think partly in writing that book and in reflecting, I realize that during transitions, some of them you want to make, like you move maybe from secondary school to another school, some of them happen to you. But I learned that during those

transitions, even the difficult ones is where the growth happens and the change happens. And there can be beauty on the other side. And so I feel like at 60, I really could step into those learnings. I really enjoyed the bits in the book where you talk about listening to your inner voice and really paying attention to what was being told and dreaming about your divorce before you realize that you were going to take the step. Yeah. I think sometimes, I'll say for myself, sometimes I wanted to turn away at times. And I think this is true, at least I know for my other female friends who I'm deeply close to, we sort of want to turn away sometimes from the hard truths or the things we need to face. And I think until we listen to our inner voice, or at least for

me, I couldn't take those courageous steps that I needed to take. And so for me, people find their inner voice in different places. For me, it's in quiet, it's in journaling, it's in walking in nature, sometimes talking to a trusted friend. And all I could say is for myself, I knew. it was time for me to turn towards my inner voice, listen to it, and take action. And you also talk about how you were grateful for your sort of Catholic upbringing and the school that you went to that sort of encouraged you to sit in silence and listen to your inner voice. 100%.

And following on from that, just to stay with faith, two questions. First of all, I thought it was interesting that, you know, Melinda Gates thought, how am I going to tell my Catholic parents about my divorce? For sure. I was nervous about that. And they were 1,000% supportive of me. Well, that's good to hear. But you had been brought up feeling what shame or what could this bring up with them, which I think is interesting. Women, right? How well, society puts things on us, whether it's our workplaces, whether it's our religions. And so I think it's important for us to really look inside of ourselves and say, why do I believe that? Is that true? Could I think in a different way about this issue? And faith is important to you. You are a Catholic, but also you're working in women's health. And contraceptive is very important for women's health. So how do those two sit together?

I had to really, again, go through some inner searching and some learning about the Catholic faith that I did around 2010. I actually brought in a number of religious scholars from the Catholic faith to teach me. how did the Catholic religion get to where it was on contraceptives? And I realized, and I had literally seen women in the developing world in life and death situations who said, I need to space the births of my children to keep the ones I have healthy and alive. And so as I learned that those were man-made decisions on contraceptives, I realized I need to question this truth because I know what I'm seeing in low-income countries. And I know I use contraceptives. I know what I believe. So now I'm going to step out and use my voice to go against this literally man-made rule.

Have you had any backlash? Yes, I absolutely had backlash from the Catholic Church at the time. I know some people now decide they're not going to follow me. That's okay. But what I know to be true is that when a woman can time and space the births of her children, she's healthier. the children are healthier and more likely to get educated. Your education, as I mentioned, was important to you, your love of computer science being encouraged by it from a very young age. The number of women going into computer science is rising here in the UK, but slowly. Would you like to see those figures rise?

And is it more important now than ever with the rise of AI and the number of men who are responsible for programming it, leading to what some might see as biased results that we get women in the world. the industry. I think it is vital that we get more women into technology. And in fact, in the United States, I make quite a bit of investments in this because what I know to be true is that when women have a seat at the table in the creation of new technology, I was there luckily at Microsoft in the early days. We do change things. The discussion changes. And we can point out some of the bias and get that taken out. So I believe women should be in all places in society at a

equal level. And technology, particularly AI, is literally changing our lives as we speak. So you've got to have women and people of color at the table. So we don't bake in bias. And so even the narratives about AI that are being given out in society are not all male focused. They're more, you know, hey, this is how it can help us. This is where it can help us in technology, sorry, in health. This is where it can help us get further in the law. And so I absolutely believe women need to be there at the table at the creation and during the design and creative process. And how do we encourage that to happen? I think we show young women examples of other women in technology succeeding. We show them these can be creative careers. We give them scholars. We show them role models. We know

role modeling, particularly in computer science, makes an enormous difference for young women. Even computer camps, I know in the United States, literally we've surveyed girls afterwards whether they will persist and we track them has to do with who the role models are in the room. And even the posters on the walls, if they're all males, they're less likely to persist. If they see females on the walls and teaching them, they're more likely to keep going. So how did you navigate your own career, those early days, when you were one of the few women in that tech environment. It was hard.

That is the truth. I found other women. There were a few others in the company. And I found, let's be clear, we need male allies. I found great men in the company who were for women and who would speak up and say, no, no, no, she has a point to make. Oh, wait a second. You overspoke her, right? So I found allies.

And then I used to step into the conversation, lean forward into the conversation. don't lean back even when people are trying to talk over me or shouting or doing the boys debate club and I learned to then step into my voice and my power but it took time you've met so many women in your life those in need of support and greater understanding of their needs is there is there one woman or a group of women who you've met who inspire you to keep going oh I've met so many women but you know I will say this one woman that I met in West Africa she said to me, don't you see, don't you see? There's a little clinic over there and it used to have contraceptives in it. Don't you see? I have five children. And if my husband wants to have another one,

I need a way to covertly use contraceptives so I can at least either not have that child or space that child. It's not fair to my current children. And her voice rings in my head because I know that if she's able to get contraceptives, which, you know, the world has provided over time, she's likely to be healthier and so are her children. You've spoken a lot about the great privilege that you have. And when I knew I was going to be talking to you, the phrase, and it's from Spider-Man, kept coming back to you with great power comes great responsibility. You have privilege, but you have great power as well.

And you and your ex-husband Bill chose to set up. at the Gates Foundation, and now you're doing Pivotal, which is because you are a philanthropist. How do you feel about sort of fellow billionaires and where they choose to spend their money? Well, I look at others who have great privilege, and I try to motivate the ones who I think are movable to give some of that money away, and honestly to give a substantial proportion away, because what I know is they will be better off in that giving. and the world is likely to be better off. And so my way is to try to inspire them.

And particularly for this women's health cause, I think I'm already talking to others of great wealth who are saying, oh, no, no, I care about that. How are you doing it? Oh, okay, I will invest alongside of you. And so those are the ones that I speak with the most and figure out what are ways forward. And this is a personal question,

but we know, we've had a very personal conversation. How do you instill values in your children, your three children, when it comes to, you know, they've grown up in such a rarefied world. How do you make sure their feet are still on the ground? Yes. Well, as they were growing up, they're all in their 20s now. I'm so proud of them. They're all adults. But as they were growing up, I really kept my middle class family in mind growing up, the chores we had, the allowance we had.

And honestly, the values my parents had. And so even though they were living in this very privileged situation, I really said to them, look, you're going to have an allowance and you're going to have limits and you're going to have boundaries. You're not going to get, you know, a fancy car when you turn 16 and get your driver's license. Like, I took these steps along the way with them. And I have to be honest, I took them out to see the world, to see our backyard in Seattle the parts that aren't so great, to see homelessness, to go out. out in Africa when they were young many times to have them understand how great their privilege was and that they did have a responsibility to give something back. And when you're in a difficult moment, Melinda, and you're searching for your purpose,

who do you reach to? I talk about in my book, my Truth Counsel, I have three women that I walk with every single Monday morning I'm in town and I turn to them and I say, this is what I'm wrestling with. What do you think? And they really will tell me the truth. Or if they can't tell me the truth in the moment, they'll circle back and they'll remind me what I do have inside, right? And so I really count on my female friendships and I'm very lucky to have many of them. Truth counsel.

There we go. Who is your truth counsel? Get in touch. I have a WhatsApp group called The Coven. So we just have, maybe they're my truth counsel. A message has come in saying, good to hear Melinda Gates, do well, be well, such positive. positive thoughts for women. I'm 65. I think the most creative years for me are just beginning. Thank you. And another one, if you don't mind, I've listed to getting in touch. Charmaine says, a big change for me came 10 years ago when I decided to start a fine art degree. It came about because after 25 years as a parish vicar, I moved to a half-time post, so I had to find something to do with the unpaid half of my life. It was life-changing and took me right out of my comfort zone, but at the end, it was the best thing I ever did. love that and she continues to say great news about the archbishop of canterbury being a woman oh great

and one last one here my husband and i aged 60 sold her house a large allotment in yorkshire to split ourselves into buying a small flats near each of our two sons each with a baby and a toddler the flats are opposite ends of england so we miss our friends but see a lot more of our younger grandchildren and sons we catch the train between london and newcastle and it works so far what a great solution yes but stepping into change takes cover Definitely. Definitely. And a truth counsel. Yes. Melinda French Gates, thank you very much for coming in to speak to us. Thanks for having me this morning. And we're here to hear, look forward to hearing about the successes of your next endeavor,

Pivotal. Now, 84844 is the number to text. As you will have heard on the news, two men killed in an attack on a synagogue in Manchester have been named by police as Adrian Daubley, 53 and 6. and 66-year-old Melvin Kravitz. The attack took place at Heaton Park Hebrew Congregation Synagogue in Crumsel, Manchester yesterday on Yom Kippur, the most holy day in the Jewish calendar.

This morning we are reflecting on how the Jewish community are feeling and in particular the impact of this attack on families and children. Joining me are Rabbi Baroness Julia Neuberger and Angela Epstein, who's the presenter of the podcast, Jewish Mother Me. Good morning, Angela and Julia. Julie, I'd like to come to you first. How are people feeling today in the Jewish community? Well, I think they're feeling shocked and I think they're feeling angry.

But I think they're also feeling, if I'm anything to go by, astonishingly well supported, actually, by the amount of reaching out that there has been by friends, by the reaction in the media. I've been absolutely bombarded. I didn't turn on my phone during the Day of Atonement because we don't. So I didn't even know about it until quite late in the afternoon. But we have had the most astonishing support, people reaching out. My Muslim friends particularly, I do want to make a point about that, have been reaching out.

But yes, it's difficult and people are shocked and yet on one other level because anti-Semitism has been rising really quite rapidly, I would say particularly since 2016. I think there's a bit of us that says not completely surprised. So you're shocked and not completely surprised at the same time. As somebody who's proudly British, I feel very, very saddened by this. You were at the synagogue yesterday. How were you and others feeling? So we didn't, you know, many people didn't know because people don't look at their,

it's the day of atonement, it's the holiest day of the year. People on the whole don't look at their phone. So somebody mentioned it to me just as the service was starting. I didn't really know what was going on until about lunchtime, although we were fasting, so nobody had lunch. But by then the news was out, so some people must have been looking at their phones. And then, of course, the other thing that happened was the immense, immense amount of support that started coming in. And the fact that the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of Dixcheca and the Foreign Secretary came to synagogue.

I mean, how amazing. What security measures have now been put in place? Well, security has been pretty. tight at synagogues around the country for a very long time. And we have a lot of security. We also have a considerable police presence. I know there's been a lot of muttering saying that the Jewish community has been left to itself to provide security. That is not wholly true. We certainly have had police presence. And indeed, the government does contribute towards the cost of security for the Jewish community. It's obviously going to have to be stepped up. People

are going to be worried about copycat attacks. And also, you know, there's some pretty disgraceful things being said. I think that one of the Palestine marches, somebody said that they didn't give a toss about the Jewish community, you know, and didn't seem to have the respect for the people who've been killed and the people who'd been injured. That's worrying, and that does mean that security does have to be stepped up. What effect is this security under having on children who have to walk through both synagogues and schools and through this security? So I think probably most of them are used to it. It's been for quite a long time.

Emma Barnett, previous presenter of Women's Hour, has an article in today's times in which she says, you know, her children are used to it. My grandchildren are used to it. That's what they've always seen. I think it's going to be stepped up a bit. So I think they'll be asking questions. And we'll have to give them honest answers. But I don't want them to feel worried about being Jewish or indeed ashamed, particularly not. ashamed of being Jewish. One of the things I think I want to say to the children is,

yes, there are some people who hate us, but they're far more who respect us, tolerate us, some who even love us. And you've got to be out and proud. I'm going to bring Angela in here. Angela, what do you say to children? Well, first of all, can I just say that this happened right on my doorstep? This is the synagogue of my childhood. So it's very much associated with family time, and it's where I got married. And we were awoken. on Yom Kippur morning by helicopters buzzing overhead and when we took to the street, it was thronging with police.

So if you were out with your children, you had no choice for them to be exposed to something quite critically important happening, not knowing at the time the monstrous element of the atrocity that took place. But you couldn't shield children from what was happening. It wasn't to me that was taking place in a faraway land or in some obscure corner. It's a very densely populated area where the synagogue is, a lot of Jewish people around, not of families. So that sort of frames my answer, if you like, because even without people really knowing what was going on, they could see something was evolving.

Now, as Rabbi Neuberg says, Jewish children have been used to knowing that their days are arced by some kind of security concerns. Jewish schools are behind gates, as are all Jewish community buildings. There are security guards at the door. They've had drills to know what's had to do in case, God forbid, of a terrorist attack. But, of course, that's all in the abstract. What's going to happen now is that information is going to start leaking about the fact there's been fatalities, that this jihadist extremist has killed innocent people on the doorstep of a local synagogue. And it's like all horrible things in the world.

Judeo's right. You don't want your children to be frightened. They have to be realistic. We have to teach children about security and we have to tell them that you know be proud of who you are and what you are but be sensible and that thankfully this is not something that happens every day

we don't know what the landscape's going to look like after this but we have to instill an uplifting view in our children you know Judaism is a religion predicated on hope on positivity on the sanctity of human life and those are the things we have to imbue our children with Julia, what advice would you give about talking to children, about the ongoing situation? How much should you tell them? I think you have to tell them.

I don't think, I mean, I think Angela's completely right. I mean, it's quite interesting, Angela, isn't it? You know, you and I are on the same page completely. You know, we have to be realistic. There's no point pretending it hasn't happened. Anyway, it's all over the news. They're going to know. As soon as they understand, they're going to know.

So I'd far rather, they knew and they said, you know, and we said how we were going to deal with it. And they learnt that again, you have to be proud and you have to be responsible and you have to be sensible. But yes, I think you tell your children and you also have to say, I mean, that's the difficult thing with children, but we've all had to tell our children. This is the oldest hatred. It goes back, you know, well over 2,000 years, started in ancient Egypt as far as we can see. So it's a very old hatred and the children have to know. Angela, what was it like sending your kids to school this morning? Well, mine are a bit older, so I didn't have to do that.

But I've been in that situation in the past. A number of Jewish schools that I know of have closed, certainly one local to me. The school has clearly made a value judgment on what the situation is. And there will be a level of trauma, you know, amongst those that know. The other difficulty, of course, in going to a Jewish school, and my children have this on there at school, is that they're very readily identifiable. You know, they're wearing the uniform. and they're all streaming into what's known as a local Jewish school.

And, you know, my children in the past have had catcalls and they've had, you know, words, you know, insult slung at them. A friend of mine actually had eggs thrown at her son. So there have, these are slightly older children, teenagers. But they have regrettably, lamentably, given this wonderful country, and I'm a patriot like Julia, have been used to knowing that when you are Jewish, you can potentially be a moving target,

but you cannot let that frame your situation and rule your lot. Yeah, Julia. I think that's absolutely right. You can't let it frame your outlook on life. But I think the other thing that's really important is that, and I think it's worth saying it on this programme, I think it's been worse for university students and for teenagers. it's definitely more prevalent.

The anti-Semitism is more prevalent amongst the young than amongst the old. Somebody who's quite old now at 75, I don't really experience it other than in obviously the same way as societally. But I think that the young really do and I think that there is something that universities now need to do

and schools need to do to grapple with this. There's a program where you've got that's not very widespread and I hope to do part of this where you've got imams and rabbis going into schools together to talk to the children, I think we need to do a hell of a lot more of that now, I really do. Yeah.

We also have to, we also have to, I mean, I've got a university student who's had awful, awful experiences on campus. She was in one particular tutorial when the protests and the hate marches were so loud outside the window that the tutor had to cancel the session. I mean, I know a university is all about exchanging imaginative ideas, but you can appreciate it as a mother at the end of the line when you're hearing this. And they're very resilient to our young students.

They've become used to being hardened to what's going on on campus. But as a parent, you feel so angry and you feel helpless. And you want to, you know, the old phrase about giving them wings, but what happens when they fly? And you want to empower them. And in some ways, you feel as a mother, you feel all the more vulnerable because they have the freedom to go around and do at least with young children.

You can dictate their mother. movement, you watch them go through the security gates of the Jewish school, you wave them off and you think, thank God, they're inside now, they're safe until I come and collect them. Julia, what conversations have being had, I wonder, in the wider community? This is, you know, shaken everybody. Have you received support? Huge support. I mean, my phone must have been, it was off, but it must have been buzzing yesterday.

I mean, the number of texts and emails I've had of support from non-Jewish friends and acquaintances has been, and particularly for Muslim friends and acquaintances, has been absolutely extraordinary. And, you know, our local, our local vicar has reached out this morning. And it's just been, it's been very, very touching. And I think that's really important. And I haven't talked to Sarah Malawi yet, but I'm so pleased about her. And she's been such a friend to the Jewish community. So, you know, it's great appointment for us, and think. Rabbi Baroness, Julian Neuberger and Angela Epstein, thank you very much for joining me this morning. Now I'm going to bring in Nazir Afzal, who's going to talk to us in a moment about

the Rochdale Grooming Gangs case. However, Afsal, you've been in Crumsel this morning, very near the synagogue where the attack took place yesterday. And using your experience as a national hate crime lead and community cohesion lead, you've been talking about how communities get through such a tragedy. What's been your response to this horrendous attack? And also, what have you been saying to the Jewish community? Can you hear me? having a little issue with the line there. We'll see if we can get Nazir Afzal up in a moment to get his comments on that.

In the meantime, let me read out a couple of your messages coming through. I totally echo what Melinda French Gates was saying. It was only after my divorce that I began to find my real voice and use it in positive new ways. It was through getting divorced that I realized that I've had to suppress it for so long. so often as women we only see, we're only seen in relation to other people.

Now, we heard earlier this week that seven men were sentenced after being convicted in June of child sex offences relating to two unnamed girls in Rochdale between 2001 and 2006. The men received lengthy sentences with the gang's ringleader given a sentence of 35 years.

The court heard how the girls were sexually exploited from the age of 13 in filthy flats, car parks, alleyways and disused warehouses in the Greater Manchester town. Referred to as Girl A and Girl B, they were treated as sex slaves and expected to have sex with the men whenever and wherever they wanted. But what impact does the process of getting these convictions have on the girls, now women, involved?

And what is the wider impact on other young women who've experienced child sexual abuse and exploitation? Well, I'm joined by Maggie Oliver, ex-Greater Manchester Police Detective and Chair of the Maggie Oliver Foundation, supporting survivors of sexual abuse, and hopefully Nazir Afzell, who's the former Chief Crown Prosecutor for North West England. I'd like to start by hearing some of the words of those, of one of the girls who were abused by these men in Rochdale. Her statement was read in court by prosecutor Rosanna Scamandella Casey before the men were

sentenced. I'm just going to read her words out. She said, my life has been destroyed from the abuse of these men. abuse has affected every part of my life, from what I look like, relationships, health to my mental health. She described the 10 years since she reported the abuse to the police as an emotional rollercoaster and said it's still consuming her life. I hope that one day I'll be able to move forward with my life, she said. The jury finding these men guilty, I hope, is going to help me take another step forward to get my life back as I've already lost my childhood.

and now because of the case, I'm losing part of my adult life continually revisiting the abuse of my childhood. Maggie, powerful words, very moving, very sad. And your foundation supports survivors of child sex abuse and exploitation. How important is it for those who come to you to see these men sentenced? I think it's incredibly important. I actually see this case as a groundbreaking moment from the perspective. of the sentences which reflect the magnitude of these crimes. I mean, what I want to say, first of all,

is that these two women have my intensive admiration for the perseverance they've shown in dedicating 20 years of their lives to seek and find justice. You know, in those 20 years, they would have had this black cloud hanging over them every single day. You know, a roller coaster of hope, of fear, of pain. You know, their mental health damaged, often beyond repair in my foundation. You know, this story is so familiar to me.

It could reflect thousands of victims and women throughout the whole country. And until very recently, you know, they were blamed. They were accused of making a lifestyle choice. They were being called child prostitutes. I think people power has now kicked into this conversation. I do think that we are moving forward too slowly, but there is still very little support out there for victims. I think I heard these women talk about the support they had from Greater Manchester Police. And actually, we are trying to build much better relationships with GMP.

But I think it still is very much a postcode lottery about which officer a victim gets. these girls clearly had support although I would say far too little far too late it shouldn't have taken 20 years I also believe that one of these young women had to give more than 40 interviews you know can you imagine well the emotional trauma yeah yeah of reliving that pain

over and over and over again they're told they can't access therapy which is factually incorrect but that is what they are told what's the cost to them Maggie to keep having to talk about it and keep hearing it mentioned in the news. It's a lifetime of trauma.

You know, in the foundation, we have an emotional support side and an advocacy side. The emotional support, we are supporting survivors who never spoke about their reviews and yet 40, 50 years on when they feel safe to come and speak to us. They are still suffering flashbacks, trauma. It impacts the whole of their lives. and I don't think they ever fully recover. I'm going to bring Nazir in here. In January 2024, the authors of a damning report

found serious failings in efforts to protect children from sexual abuse by grooming gangs. They said greater Manchester police and Rochdale Council failed to properly investigate reports between 2004 and 2013, despite warnings from whistleblowers. Why were they not taken seriously? Well, obviously, there's going to be a good morning,

by the way, for me from missing you anyone. There will be an actual inquiry, as we all know, and that will get to the bottom of what's happened. I imagine, in large part, there's a lot of incompetence here. I think Maggie just mentioned the words, you know, some of them were, some of these victims were, well, a lot of them were treated with real contempt. They were called child prostitutes. There was all sorts of language used about them, about them, which meant that they weren't being listened to, and they weren't being acted upon.

And so that, I think, the landscape, the context, the actions of the actions of the, people. And it has to be said is a very difficult case in anyway, but we made it more difficult for ourselves simply because we weren't taking their accounts of these young girls very seriously. And I think there's a national inquiry will undoubtedly come on to deal with that

in due course. I think there's lots of positives. And the most recent conviction that you've been dealing with today, or talking about today, are a sign of that. And, you know, we had, back on the first watch trial prosecution I was involved in was 2012. So we've seen

significant improvement. We've seen many, many people brought to justice, hundreds of people brought to justice and hundreds, if not thousands of victims finally given the voice that they deserved. It also took a very long time for some of these men to be convicted. These sexual offences took place between 2001 and 2020 and 2006. So some more than 20 years. True. And that makes some, there's no excuse for this, by the way. I mean, there's no going away from it. Had they been listened to that then, these people would have been prosecuted and dealt with back then, and also they wouldn't have re-offended. You know, we know from experience that when I dealt with the first roster of prosecution,

we had Girl A, which featured in the BBC film Three Girls, and had the prosecutors and police officers dealt with her better and listened to her and acted upon what they said, many, many girls would have been prevented from harm because those offenders would have been convicted earlier. So we know that the delay has led to more victims and more offenders acting with impunity. However, as I said, the response now is significantly better. And, yeah, the reality, as Maggie is, I find to you, is that support for victims isn't as good as it could be. It's reliant on NGOs, charities like hers, rather than state-funded support. Social services, children's services have all been.

decimated of the last decade or so that they're not able to provide it in the way they should do. So the danger is, of course, that the delays will continue. But I think we recognise that this issue now is being recognised and prioritised. And I hope it's the things will make a difference. Yeah, but for those girls, it's too little too late. Absolutely. Nobody's going to argue about it against that at all. Absolutely. They've suffered a lifetime trauma. When I prosecuted Stuart Hawke, if you remember, there were women there who had been abused 20, 30 years previously, finally getting

justice and telling me that now they could get on with their lives. But for 20, 30 years, they had been blamed for everything that's happened to them. They had been retramatized and re-triggered. So the important thing is, you know, we're not doing a massive disservice. More than that, we give them a great injustice

when we don't listen to them when they come forward in the first place. Maggie, can I just come back in? I just want to say that Nassir is speaking as though these are still problems of the past. And what I would say is that they are not. And my foundation is supporting people today. Anybody who watched the recent Channel 4 documentary called Groomed, a national scandal,

will see victims there from 20 years ago who are still being failed today. So, you know, things are still, you know, I would like to bring in the third sector far more to support victims and survivors. Two of those men, at the very least, I recognised from the original Rochdale case, which was over 10 years ago. And had they been stopped then, they wouldn't have been allowed to offend for another 13 years.

Even after all these years, Maggie, some sort of justice has been done. And most importantly, will it give survivors of this terrible crime confidence in reporting it now? I think the most powerful part of this case, that the bravery of the women is um it is un um we can't argue against that it's taken immense courage but i think the sentences 35 years 28 years 27 years when the man who got young ruby pregnant you know 15 years ago in rochdale was out of prison in less than four years that is massive

progress and you know i think that that is because of public pressure increased public awareness there now is no pushing this back into the box and I think that that is a massive step forward. Okay, I'd like to thank you both for joining me, Nazia Afssel and Maggie Oliver. And I must say that if you've been affected by anything you've heard during our conversation, you can go to the BBC Action Line website

where you'll find links to support. Now, I wanted to remind you about the Woman's Hour Guide to Life, a brand new series of conversations available now only on BBC Sounds. It's your toolkit for tackling life's challenges and opportunities, so whether you're fixing a problem at one of life's crossroads or just looking to shake things up a bit.

This is the only guide you'll need to help you survive. Series 1 is focusing on The Juggle. Our first episode is all about maintaining our friendships despite our endless to-do lists. So to hear The Woman's Hour Guide to Life. All you need to do is go to BBC Sounds, search for Woman's Hour, and in the feed you'll find the Guide to Life episodes.

Now, next. If you've bought a piece of jewellery recently, perhaps a wedding ring or maybe something for a big birthday, you'll probably be aware that the price of gold has reached record highs. That surge in the value of gold is reshaping the jewellery industry from supply chains to design choices, while consumers are being nudged towards silver and other materials in ways that would have seemed unlikely only a couple of years ago. These pressures are being felt this week at the annual goldsmiths fair in the city of London, one of the UK's most prestigious jewellery exhibitions. We went along to get a sense of the mood.

I'm Sarah Stafford. This is my 25th year in business. I've seen gold prices go from £7 a gram to £100 a gram in that time. And I've gone from probably 50% of the work in my collection being 18 carat to now I have four rings, but I'm using gold in different ways. My name is Jacqueline Cullen. I'm an independent jewellery designer using high-carat gold is making our prices almost unsustainable. I'm trying to cut my prices in some way.

We also have to consider using alternative materials, but then you're battling against perceived value. My name is Uttodeke. I guess what is called a sculpturedura. You'll see a lot more kombu, which means it's a thin silver gold foil on it, on silver rather than solid. Lots of us are thinking of how much to make it even thinner.

I've looked into alternative materials, of things like using titanium or using aluminium and then also going down the carrots. This year in particular you're seeing a lot more plating. If you plate something, it makes it sound a little bit on the cheap side. But you can use Vermeil to plate, which is much, much thicker than regular plating. And you'll also get a beautiful richness to the tone. You have the gold colour, but you don't have the expense.

The colour of gold is beautiful. Silver is very, very dull in my mind. Similarly, white gold. It doesn't have much warmth to it, but 18 carat is just always has a bit. better cliche to it. It pains me a little bit to see how the prices will go up so much that less jewelers will work in amazing gold jewelry. I mean, now really could be the best time to buy gold before we jewelers stop using it. Jewelry makers talking to us at Goldsmith's further. So what might all this mean for buyers? Could gold jewelry become a thing of the past? Well, to find out more.

Jewelry writer Rachel Taylor is with me. And in a moment, we'll talk to jewelry designer and maker, see her Taylor, not related. Rachel, you first. That last voice were heard. Was she just being a shrewd saleswoman encouraging us to buy gold whilst we still can? What does she have a point? I think there's a real worry among dealers at the moment because I think it has been consistently going up and there's only so far it can go.

And I was actually at a talk last night with some jewelers who were discussing the idea that they now will have to find completely new customer groups because the people who could afford their jewelry last year are not the same people who can afford their jewelry this year. So this is a real existential moment for some companies then. What are they going to do? Absolutely. I think as you heard from Goldsmithsphere, lots of people are looking at how they can use less gold. So they're using lighter designs. People are also looking at new technologies. So you can now 3D print directly in gold, which allows a lot of control over the designs. So you can use a smaller amount of gold to get exactly what you want. It's kind of looking at different ways.

And maybe alternative materials as well. I think one of the trends we've seen, recently is incorporating precious wood alongside gold, so maybe more alternative materials next to gold. So the full focus is not on the precious metal. I can just hear every Asian woman in Britain sitting up going, precious wood instead of gold. What? We'll come to that. We'll come to how Asian other communities and cultures look towards gold. But Sia, let me bring you in. You work mainly in gold. How has this been impacting your business? Actually, I work entirely in gold. I don't use any gemstone. So I've got nothing else to sort of offset the increase in price. So it's really affecting us in, I'd say, three main ways. So obviously the increased retail prices that Rachel

was talking about. But also for us, we have a quite substantial wholesale business. So it's affecting the way that we price our pieces when we take them to market, help working out new structures for that, but also we're struggling with supply of gold because I use just gold, we have a kind what we call a rainbow palette of gold. So it's different alloys and different colours. I have to have them specifically made for me. And the company that we work with are one of the biggest producers of investment bars, so literally gold ingots for investors. So they're obviously overrun at the moment with people buying gold for investment, which means it's very hard for them to fit in making small quantities of different alloys for a small business.

Yeah. It's quite interesting, isn't it? Because you'd think on the surface, if the price of goal is going up, great for your business, because you can just charge more. I suppose if you can't afford to buy the stock, then there's a problem. Yeah, I think it's, we're finding it's an issue because we work, we're very slow to produce the jewellery. It's handcrafted, very sort of traditional techniques and we can't speed up. So when we launch a collection, we will take orders from that collection from the stockists that we work with, like Liberty in London. And our lead times can be six, eight, nine months. So how are you going to adapt to survive? Well, this is a big question at the moment that we're trying to figure out. And it's very hard not being able to give a

definite price. So I think it's going to have to be a case of asking for more of a kind of a model where we're getting a deposit so that we can go out and buy the gold in order to produce that order. So I think we're working on kind of new structures for how we can how we can do that. Rachel, why has this happened? Why has the price gone up? I think it's, I mean, if you look globally, obviously there's a lot of unrest at the moment. And I think traditionally If you look back in time, the gold price tends to spike when there's uncertainty in other markets because it is a solid asset. So I think we see now, because there's been this sustained period of uncertainty, the price has just gone up and up and up. And everyone keeps, you know, I think

in the jewelry market, you know, people are very resilient to sort of ups and downs in terms of prices of diamonds or gold. But it feels like it's just consistently going up all the time and it doesn't look like that's going to change. I mentioned gold is extremely important as an asset in marriages in many Asian communities. How is this playing out then in those communities? Gold still being bought in the same quantities? Yeah, it's a much more, I would say, resilient market than perhaps people who are just buying jewelry for adornment. Because the whole ethos behind that type of buying is they are seeing it as an investment. So actually, the prices are going up, I suppose that's actually quite reassuring because that encourages you that it is somewhere

to put your money because you're buying jewelry with the idea that it's a store of value for the future. And seeing the prices going up, perhaps isn't quite a skier off-putting if you're just buying a piece of jewelry because you think it's beautiful. And it seems, yeah. I was going to say the 22-carat gold sector, which it's the only one showing growth at the moment compared to all the other allies. Yeah. I mean, just the woman's hour spin on that is that actually sort of within the South Asian communities, that's the one asset that a bride would have been given, you know, historically going into their marriage. The gold was their sort of security, if you like. And And it's passed down through generations.

So, yeah, my grandmothers and my great-grandmothers necklaces are very beautiful. I'm very grateful to have them sitting at home in my mums. This is a question for both of you. Christmas is, I can't believe I'm actually mentioning it, far too soon. But if people are thinking of buying something special, a nice necklace pat, but what prices, with prices really high, how can consumers find something special, Sia? I mean, I would say go to independent designers. I think we're able to be flexible about working within people's budgets.

We can try and meet a specific budget, which I think you won't get with a kind of bigger brand names. And sorry, just running up to Rachel, what happens if prices keep rising? I think if you already have jewelry, that's good news, as you say, it's a store of value. But if it does keep going up, I think we're going to see designers becoming even more innovative in sort of how they're using jewelry or how they're creating jewelry to sort of keep within. price points that are reasonable because obviously they can only go up so far before it becomes, it prices a lot of people out of the market. Rachel Taylor and Sia Taylor, thank you so much for joining me. And just to end on one of your messages, my Truth Council is a chat group that's been

going for over 10 years. They're currently six girls over 250 years and you've been seeing each other through thick and thin since you've been at university. Glad to hear it. Join me tomorrow for weekend Women's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I think we need to be jolted out of thinking this is just a program of tributes to people.

It isn't. It's an exploration, and we may not always like what we find. It's such a cliched idea to say a chimpanzee. At least say an octopus or a horse or something, God's sake. There's Elizabeth Day on the Pharaoh, Hapshetsud. The subsequent ruler defaced a lot of her statuary, and so we also have very little clue of what she actually looked like. Miles Jupp on the novelist J.L. Carr. Stuart Lee on guitarist Derek Bailey.

You've got to meet the challenge of a culture that is failing the public. Great Lives continues on Radio 4 and BBC Sounds.