Woman's Hour - 03/11/2025

Episode Date: November 3, 2025

Women's voices and women's lives - topical conversations to inform, challenge and inspire.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. A new season of Love Me is here. Real stories of real, complicated relationships. It's not even like a gender. I mean, it's wrapped up in gender, but it's just a really deep self-hate. I think I cried almost every day. I just stole myself on the floor. He's coming on really straight.

It's like he's trying to date you all of a sudden. Yeah. And I do look like. my mother. Love me. Available now wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, this is Neula McGovern, and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. It is indeed. Good morning and welcome to the program. Well, right off the bat, a question for those of you who have been through fertility treatments. How did you manage at work during that time? We know it can be emotional and also time-consuming, but I'm wondering, did you tell your

employer where you support it. I'd like to hear your stories. We do have the MP Alice MacDonald in just a moment who is asking MPs to consider a legal right to time off work for such procedures. You can text the program. The number is 84844 on social media or at BBC Women's Hour or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or voice note. That number is 0-3700-100-444. Also today, what has led to the online and in-court, passionate support from young women for Luigi Mangoni. He's an American man accused of murder, a charge he denies. But we will explore why some women desire men accused or convicted of crimes.

That's coming up. Also, now, you might be watching a bit more telly on these dark evenings. Celebrity traitors, for example. Well, I'm going to speak to a woman whose business boomed after a certain green jumper she created was worn by Claudia Winkleman. That was on season two of the traitors. And we'll also speak to a woman who dressed. like Claudia for a week. Why?

It may be my first question. We have all that to chat about and traitors fashion. We'll also be in Tbilisi. The British woman, Bella Cully, who is eight months pregnant, is awaiting right now the final verdict and sentence

in Georgia for drug smuggling, expecting that in the coming hour. So we will speak to our correspondent who is there. But I'm actually going to jump forward to tomorrow morning because Alice MacDonald, MP for Norwich North,

Well, ask MPs if they agree that a legal right should be given to people to take paid time off to attend medical appointments for fertility treatment. The World Health Organisation say that one in six people are affected by infertility. Fertility matters at work. They provide training for fertility support in the workplace. They've published a cost analysis that they're going to share with us. They've explored the economic impact of not providing time off for fertility treatment, not only for people directly involved in seeking help,

but also for the businesses and they say the economy more widely. So I'm joined in studio this morning. You'd be busy tomorrow morning, but you're with me this morning, MP Alice MacDonald. Good to have you with us. Thanks for having me. Also, Natalie Silverman is joining us. She's the co-founder of Fertility Matters at work.

Welcome, Natalie. Hi, Leuda. Thanks for having me. So the current situation, Alice, under law for or under employment law, I suppose, as well, for those working and undergoing fertility treatment? So at the moment there is no legal right to time off for those appointments and that's the reason I'm bringing this bill forward because I've heard from women and Natalie and fertility matters at work have as well about the impact this is having on them.

It's people in general but particularly on women and I think it needs to change. There's also in the Equality Act Code of Practice is actually an example where they compare IVF treatment to cosmetic dental surgery for a man. So the situation we're in at the moment... Where is that exactly? It's in the Equality Act Code of Practice,

which is a document the most of your listeners probably haven't come across. And one of the examples kind of makes that comparison. You know, they do say, you know, we hope employers would look favourably on requests or words to that effect. But the situation we have now is basically you have to hope that you've got a supportive employer that does understand this, that lets you go to those appointments. But what we have seen is, in fact, a lot of people are taking sick leave to go on what is effectively a medical.

it's a medical procedure, you know. Yeah, I mean, some might say, why not sick leave considering it can be considered a medical procedure? Well, I think the fact is, you know, if you're pregnant, you're entitled to antenatal appointments, of course, which is right. And people through no thought of their own are having to have IVF. We know the last year for which figures are available, approximately 53,000 people underwent IVF. And, you know, it might be because you have fertility challenges. That might be with the man or the woman. because you're in a same-sex couple

or there's increasingly more single women who are looking for IVF fertility treatment. And it's not only the right thing to do for women, it's also in the best interest of society when we've got declining fertility rates as well. We can look at some of the barriers to what's stopping people accessing the treatment that they need. What you're calling for, is this for men and women?

So people is how it's described. But there is also an ask for the right to time or for partners to go along as well. So currently, I think that you have the right to go with your partner for up to two appointments for anti-natals. So we're asking for that as well because although it does impact women disproportionately, fertility is also caused by men, you know, about 30% of the factors within it. So I think it's 30% women, 30% men and 30%. I know that adds up to 90, not 100.

A combination or unknown factors. So it's really important that this is a conversation about people, but we do have to look at the disproportionate impact. that it does have on women and address that. Now, I'll come to the figures in a second, but what you're doing is presenting a 10-minute rule bill. So this allows a backbench MP to make a case for a new bill in a speech lasting up to 10 minutes.

There can also be an opposing speech. Tell me why you're doing that. Well, I'm a new MP. I was elected in 2024. There are lots of different bits of parliamentary procedure. It is quite rare that 10-minute rule bills will become law. but what you get is a slot in kind of prime time after questions normally and you can raise awareness of an issue.

I have already spoken to the previous Employment Rights Minister about this. I've raised fertility in general on the floor of the House a number of times and I would say that they are listening and you also get support from other MPs to back the bill so you can have up to I think 10, 11 MPs backing it. What have you got? I've got the full amount of backing alongside me so MPs like Stella Creti, Sarah Owen who chairs the Women in Equality Select Committee. and I've got a lot of men supporting it as well

and MPs for different reasons, they might have had experiences themselves, but often they've been contacted by constituents who think this isn't a fair situation and does need changing. Any opposing it? Not as far as I know, but I'll only find that out tomorrow, but I wouldn't have thought so, and actually the former Conservative MP, Nicky Aitken,

bought a similar bill, a private members bill in 2022-23. So you can see across political parties, this has been an issue that's been in the spotlight for a while, and I think it's about time that we took some action on it. I just threw it out to our listeners at the top. You might have heard that. I've already got a full board of messages. Here's a few.

I went through assisted conception last year. I had to get a sick line from my GP. As a teacher in a small community, I was terribly nervous people would find out. I did tell my boss but hated the fact that she knew. What made it very difficult, it's based on your cycle. You don't know when your time off will start. Another, I went through treatment three times.

My employer was extremely supportive. If my appointments were seen as medical, I did not tell my employer until I knew I was successful. Once they knew they changed my leave from annual leave to medical and I gained my annual leave back, I realise I'm very privileged and grateful to my employer. So it's kind of, I suppose, a case-by-case basis. Natalie, let us bring you into this.

I am seeing figures that you are talking about when it comes to cost analysis. You say with an affected employee, that a business could lose up to 35,000, and £317 pounds. That seems like an awful lot of money. How did you come up with that figure? Well, first of all, I just want to just say

what your last listener said about they were lucky. They had a supportive employer is so testament to what we here have been inundated over the weekend. We don't want it to be luck of the draw. And you mentioned about, are people sick? Should it be sick leave? You're not sick. We have people at appointments on their laptops

in the waiting rooms. You know, we're trying to talk about the need to understand that we have a flexible approach to this. And ideally, people can take hours rather than days. Now, we've done this cost analysis because we've spent the last five years getting data on what this issue and impact is. What we're trying to highlight is that this is already costing businesses money. So what we've based our numbers on is the number of cycles that the HFEA,

which the government regulator, have said that people are taking. And we've looked at the cost that it's costing businesses in terms of sick leave and absence when people are having to hide what they're going through, rather than being able to say like that, last listener said that they were going through medical treatment because this is classed by the World Health Organization as a disease of the reproductive system, therefore the treatment needed is, as Alice has said, a medical procedure.

But let's delve into that a little bit more, that 35,000. So you're saying, because people are hiding it, explain it to be a little bit more, because couldn't they just say, I have a doctor's appointment, I need to go this day, I have a doctor's appointment, I need to go that day, without actually getting into the specifics of why they're going to.

going. So totally agree and we don't say that anybody has to disclose. What we've done with the data that we've had is that we know that 6% of people left their jobs. We also know that 29% of just under 1,000 people that we surveyed said they didn't have any policies in place. So we've used that data to work out what that would mean in terms of sick pay to get that figure of the 35,000 and the cost of it's having on businesses. What would it mean then? Coming back to you, Alice, if in fact employers did sign on or this became a bill, for example. I mean, some small businesses might say this is like one more expense that I can't afford to shoulder. Well, I think what the research shows today and fertility matters at work have done an amazing job with a lot of different data

that shows there is also a cost to not doing it. You know, as we heard, 6% of those surveys had actually left their job. So there's a cost in terms of that, the sick leave and productivity as well, I think, you know, for people going through IVF treatment, as you said before, it can be quite unpredictable. And actually, if you can agree, if you feel comfortable disclosing and you can plan that with your employer that they know they can make plans around that rather than just having to take sick leaves. And I think some of the research shows that in fact, sometimes you could take a few hours, a morning, but actually people are taking whole days because to go on there. So with a bit of planning, I think you could save businesses some money as well. And a lot of employers that we may come onto this are actually doing this voluntarily already because they recognise it's in there.

interest. And I do want to point that out a number of messages coming in. I feel super lucky to work for an employer that's very supportive. Of employees going through IVF, I could go to any of my appointments, rearrange my work around them, making a stressful process much easier. I'm now going down the adoption route and getting equal support and understanding. I know this isn't the case for many women. Fertility treatment while at work, yes, I work for company and they've been very supportive and have an excellent maternity policy. I had paid time off for appointments and scans. It was a German pharmaceutical company, but I know a lot of women are not supported.

Another, I underwent a year of fertility treatments in the 90s. I didn't tell my employer, I didn't feel right doing that. I just got on with it, managing to go outside of working hours and taking annual leave. Yeah, exactly. And I think the stories show the really wide variety of experiences that you do have. And, you know, some of those are very positive, but there are stories where, you know, people have effectively felt they've been given a bit of an ultimatum and have ended up leaving. And, you know, it takes a physical toll, IVF treatment, but it's also a real emotional toll,

well. So if we can address one of the barriers that can make things even worse, then I think we absolutely should. The Treasury loses £47.9 million annually, Natalie, you have those figures as well. Talk our listeners through how you came to that and how you're calculating it. Sure. So that's based on what I described before about the 6% who leave and the 29% of that aren't being provided. And what we've, what we've based it on is the impact that's making in terms of lost national insurance and tax for those who are taking that time off to go to treatment. So what we're just trying to highlight is this is already costing business. It's already costing the Treasury. So if we can just put in this support, this awareness of what the issues are,

and ideally there are these policies in place because people don't know who to go to to ask for help. We've been inundated like you're being over the weekend when we said we were having this conversation by our community just saying how hard it is and it shouldn't be lack of the draw. Another one. I took an unpaid sabbatical from a stressful post for fertility treatment and negotiated through a very

understanding manager and a lovely HR manager. But when those two people move jobs I was forced to resign in order to maintain the leave. I've never challenged this but I'm still upset by this approach taken by the new HR manager although of course I now have my beautiful daughter

and congratulations to you on that. But you you explain what you went through to get there. We do have some statements. Here's a government spokesperson from the Department of Work and Pensions. We've set out our immediate priorities for reforming employment law in the plan to make work pay, which includes

supporting those balancing work with treatment. And quotes, we are strengthening the right to flexible working in our employment rights bill, which will make it easier for employees and employers to agree arrangements that support attendance at medical appointments, including those for IVFY, is that

not enough nationally? I think there just needs to be more clarity so that people understand what they need to be considering with this. We know that that benefit of flexible working is a great starting point. But I think because if people left of their own devices as to what's the right thing to do,

it's just not going to be clear enough. So if there was that right, it would, in essence, relieve the burden of guilt that those going through it feel when they feel that they're letting their colleagues down, it would also ensure that employers understand why this is important and enable them to ultimately hold on to good talent because one of the stats we've got is 38% of people considered leaving their jobs.

And we know that that's a conservative stat. We know that it's probably way more. We have that 6% that did leave. So we want to highlight that by doing these types of measures, you're going to enable these people to hopefully stay put because they feel loyal. You know, I'm just thinking this through for a person, even if this comes into law, for example, that's looking further down and that they get time off for the treatments.

But we know that treatments, particularly with IVF, are usually unsuccessful. And I'm wondering are you thinking about people, the man or the woman, in cases like this? Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, there's no, and I know myself, you know, past becoming a parent is not necessarily easy for everybody. And that's why I think it's important that we do have clear rights set out. so that if you do need to have multiple cycles, then you should at least feel that there is a right there and you've got an employer that you can talk to about it. I'm even thinking about when those cycles don't work and that person.

I mean, you're putting yourself in such a vulnerable position to open up to your employee or employer or colleagues of something that possibly won't be successful. And I think there's a broader point as well. And organisations like Cadent Gas, Centrica, Aviva, have got policies in place that are broader. So there might be a point of contact that you can speak to, for example. I think you've covered here before, the kind of fertility officer in some organisations actually exists.

So that you feel like actually there isn't necessarily a taboo at work around this. And you could speak about it if you want to. And of course, that is up to the woman, the person undergoing treatment. But yeah, it can be, obviously, it's a difficult, sensitive subject. But the more, and I think for me, someone who does have a public platform to a certain extent, that's one of the reasons I'm bringing this bill forward, because it means that we'll be talking about this a bit more. And perhaps, like, your listeners will think,

oh, there are other people going through this and there are other ways of doing this than perhaps the experience that I've had. You're taught on that, Natalie, you know, it's such a long process and very possibly unsuccessful at the end of that road, no matter how many treatments. Yeah. And we put a big emphasis with the organisations

who we work with on peer support and having these different conversations about routes to parenthood and the child that's not by choice community is when we've done more and more work with organisations to highlight the children. just because somebody's going through treatment, like you've just said, doesn't ensure a successful outcome. So it's, again, that awareness piece

and ensuring that the psychological safety within organisation so people know who they can talk to about where they're at. And we've seen amazing examples of organisations where they have talked about these topics. And it's growing numbers of one in four men, I think one in five women who are child is not by choice. And they feel now that they can talk about how they feel and how they show up at work

because these conversations are being had. another just came in as people I asked for their stories and they are telling them in droves I've been having fertility treatment for nearly two years now I'm self-employed and have had to either turn work down or delay rounds of IVF to fit around work it would be totally impossible for me to work while having treatment I feel unbelievably fortunate that not only have we been able to afford treatment

to date we have spent £70,000 and that is not unusual but my husband has been able to support me as there have been times I've had to choose between work or IVF as time is off the essence, I've had to turn down work. Well, I think we're talking predominantly about rights in the workplace, but there's also an important point there about cost, and this is fertility week. And we know that I think it's less than 10% of the local NHS,

the integrated care boards in England and I think Wales as well, offer less than the three funded cycles that nice guidelines say you should get on the NHS. So it's a bit of a postcode lottery in terms of your access to treatment as well. And that's something that we need to look at. And I know the government will be updating, well, both the men's health strategy and the women's health strategy. And I'm kind of saying also, let's really look at fertility as part of that as well. I just want to throw one more to you, Natalie, before I let you go. Patrick, Mills, head of people and work policy

at the British Chambers of Commerce says many businesses are routinely operating broad, flexible working practices to help people balance work and family. Employers recognize the huge significance of any colleagues going through fertility treatment. Without the need for further legislation, businesses are already supporting staff to ensure they remain happy, engaged and productive? That's great to hear, but there's still way more businesses that don't have policy in place. And we do know that 61% were fearful of telling their employer, only 36% of the people we spoke to felt their employer recognised that fertility issues and treatment and what

was needed was a life event. So I agree, it's great. Things are changing, but more still needs to be done. Thank you both for coming in. and speaking about the issue thanks also for all the people who have contributed their personal story I know it is a very personal one

as we're getting into the MP Alice McDonald's and also Natalie Silverman co-founder of fertility matters at work. Now this morning a significant moment for Bella Cully the British woman who had been held in custody in Georgia on drug trafficking charges since May.

We have just heard actually in the past couple of moments that her lawyer has said she is to be freed from prison. The 19-year-old is eight months pregnant. She's from Billingham and Tyside. She was arrested at Tbilisi Airport after police found drugs in her luggage. Earlier this morning, just before news of her release, I spoke to Rehan Dimitri. She is the BBC news is caucus correspondent. She was outside the city court in

Tbilisi before the judge gave his verdict. So I'll give you a little bit of context with Ray M on this case. Bella Carly flew into Tbilisi, the capital of Georgia, back in May. She arrived here from Thailand via Sharjah in the United Arab Emirates and she was arrested at the airport after her hold luggage was flagged by the police. They said that it was full of cannabis, 14 kilograms of cannabis that was found in her hold luggage. Bella Kali at that time, as we understand it from her lawyer, she was trying to explain to the Georgian police that she was forced into becoming a drug mule by a criminal gang in Thailand that she had no idea where she was flying

and she asked them to let her hand that suitcase to whoever it was that was supposed to meet her at Tbilisi airport but they didn't follow in that lead they didn't let her do that she was arrested with that amount of drugs and charged with trafficking drugs into Georgia which is punishable under Georgian law with the minimum of 15 years and up to life imprisonment. So what have the conditions been like this far because there's been a change in her situation? There has been a change in her situation.

Her lawyer, from the beginning of this court case, he was trying to bargain with the prosecutors on the terms of a plea bargain. So it's not uncommon in Georgia for, drug-related crimes to be solved through a plea bargain. But just a short while ago, Nula, I caught up with a prosecutor. He was walking into the Dbilisi court where I'm standing now. And I was asking him about this deal and how I was asking him, you know,

how good is the deal that the family is getting after they've paid a large amount of some. And that became clear from the last court hearing that the Belikali's family had to raise 140,000 British pounds in an effort to reduce her sentence and the prosecutor said that the deal that Bella Kali is getting is extremely good because he says that commonly here under plea bargain system people don't get their sentences reduced to what is being offered to Bella and we know that Bella might get a two-year sentence down from 15, 20 years that she was facing. And he said that they took into account her age, her condition, she's pregnant,

and to an extent what happened to her in Thailand, although he mentioned that there was a separate case that was launched by the Georgian police, and we know it from Bella's lawyer that that case was transferred to Thailand so Georgian police are not investigating what really happened to her whether she was forced into becoming a drug mule and she's currently being held

and charged with the fact of trafficking drugs into Georgian but I mean some might be shocked I know I was when I read it that plea bargaining could have such an effect with money involved as well of a hundred and 40,000, as you say, reducing a sentence from potentially minimum 15 years down to two. Yes, that's right. And the family, Bella Kali's mother, had told us during the last court hearing that they were given even like another payment option to pay even more money that would have resulted in Bella Kali walking free from the courtroom. But unfortunately, the family was unable to raise that sum.

She is pregnant, as you mentioned. What usually happens in Georgian prisons if a woman is pregnant? Well, up until this case, I wasn't really aware of what is commonly done here. But what we know is that Bella Carly last month, she was already transferred to mother and baby unit in the Rustavi prison where she's being held. It's a prison just outside the capital of Belisi. And according to Leanne Kennedy, Bella's mother, the conditions there are way better than

where she was held for the first five months of her pretrial detention, which was a common cell, unfortunately with inmates who were chain smokers, with a hole in the ground for a toilet, one hour of war, And you know how we sort of imagine that in prisons or maybe, you know, what we see in the movies, that the prisoners get to eat at least together in a communal space, that is not the case in the Rostavi prison. They would only leave their cell for that one hour of walk and the rest of the time the food is brought there or if inmates have money, they were able to order some food from outside, I don't know, fruit. or vegetables or something that is not provided as part of the routinely prepared food. So her mother also talked about Bella toasting a piece of bread over a candlelight or boiling her pasta in a kettle.

So things like that. But now that she's been transferred to a mother and baby unit, apparently there's a communal kitchen where they can cook for themselves. themselves. There are other mothers. There are young children with their mothers so they can cook for each other and she has a separate shower and a toilet because previously it was showers only twice a week for 15 minutes and that's all you could get. So the sentence, the verdict will be official this morning. You're outside the courthouse. You'll be going in shortly. and then Bella will continue in that particular location

do you expect for the rest of her time in Georgia and her baby with her? Well, I think that's what we are expecting to hear. Apparently there's a provision in the Georgian law that allows young mothers after giving birth to serve their sentences for up to nine months to be under house arrest instead of being in prison. So we're expecting to hear whether that provision in the law

would apply to Bella and also her lawyer has said that he wants to appeal to the president of Georgia for clemency so we're also expecting to hear whether that will be the case and how long it's likely to take Bella is due next month and yeah so so her mother who has been here for all these weeks trying to support her daughter. She said that she won't be able to see her daughter until she's given a birth. So no more meetings allowed. But of course the hope is for the family that either through a presidential pardon or this provision in the law that Bella could be outside the prison. Is there much interest in her case in the Georgian press? It's obviously in the headlines here in the UK?

Not to the extent as I think that there's an interest in the UK. Georgia is going through its own, you know, like domestic political crisis at the moment, so not really that much attention. But Bella Kali's case, at least now in my case, I realize that Georgia is a transit country for a lot of drugs. there are other women I've heard in the same prison a Malaysian woman apparently

who also flew in with a suitcase full of drugs from Thailand and going back to that conversation with the prosecutor that I was having just a short while ago I said what is the reason why would they come all the way to Georgia and he said well it's a transit country you have

Turkey Georgia borders Turkey it borders Russia so it is a route for for drug trafficking, quite a common route for drug trafficking. So I think Bella's case is getting more attention, more media attention, because of her age, because of her condition. But it is, unfortunately, it's not uncommon for drugs to be trafficked via this country,

like in Bella's case. Rehan Dimitri there, who I spoke to probably about an hour ago, but just in the past half hour or so. news coming through that Bella Cully will be freed from prison entirely expected to have a two-year sentence but that instead changed. Without a presidential pardon, it appears as

well so you'd expect more news on that particular story throughout the day as more of the details come through. A new season of Love Me is here. Real stories of real complicated relationships. It's not even like a gender. I mean, it's wrapped up in gender, but it's just

It's just a really deep self-hate. I think I cried almost every day. I just stole myself on the floor. He's coming on really straight. It's like he's trying to date you all of the sudden. Yeah, and I do look like my mother. Love me. Available now wherever you get your podcasts.

Now, are you up to date with the Woman's Hour Guide to Life episodes? I want to let you know that the next episode of the series is out now. only on BBC Sounds. It's all about how we can build emotional resilience in children and young people and perhaps learn a few things about ourselves as well.

Here's a clip featuring clinical psychologist Dr. Becky Kennedy. Your role is not to stop a tantrum and your role is not to avoid a tantrum. You actually don't want to avoid tantrums because everything we do to avoid a tantrum, fine, I'll get you that chalk apart.

Fine, you can watch one more TV. All a kid learns is my parent is as scared of my frustration as I am. That makes your kid more likely to have tantrums over time. And so don't avoid, don't end. Your job is actually simple. Keep your kid safe and keep your kid calm.

I always use the mantra. I'm safe. This isn't an emergency. I can cope with this. I think whether you have a 2-year-old or a 22-year-old, that's a good mantra because it helps you separate their feelings from yours. You're like, wait, I'm okay. They're not.

And then you just wait it out. You wait it out. And when your kid gets used to this, my parent doesn't avoid it. They don't end it. They keep me safe, and they can stay calmer than me. They absorb our regulation. That's called co-regulation. And that's the thing over the course.

I'm going to be honest. It is years that leads to their ability to be more resilient and not have such intense meltdown. She also talks about having a tolerance for discomfort. Well, to hear the Woman's Hour Guide to Life, just go to BBC Sound, search for Woman's Hour, and then in the feed, as you scroll down, you will find the Guide to Life episodes.

And if you think in future episodes, there's something we should really be delving into, do get in touch in all the usual ways. Now, I want to turn to the case of Luigi Mangione. He is the man accused of killing the US health insurance CEO, Brian Thompson. You might remember that case. It is one of the most closely followed legal cases of recent years. The 26-year-old was arrested in December, and he was accused of shooting Mr. Thompson,

who was a father of two outside of Manhattan Hotel. He faces charges of murder and stalking, charges which Mangione denies. Now, while the case continues, something else has been happening. He has attracted an intense, mostly female online following, people sharing pictures of him, writing letters, posting fan edits and memes, and debating his appearance and behaviour in forensic detail. And to be clear, we're talking about reaction around this case, not the actual evidence. Luigi Mangione has not been found guilty of any crime we also see young women turn up in court to support him but why does a man accused of violence become the object of fascination

and even desire to some women and what does it say about the digital age that we are living in well in a moment we'll speak to Professor David Wilson who's a criminologist and former prison governor but with me in studio right now is Faye Kern journalist at the New Statesman who has immersed herself in this following that Luigi Mangoni has online. Good to have both of you with us. Fay, how would you describe this fandom, if that's the correct word? So these are a group of, I would say, mostly women online who are of the belief that Luigi Mangoni either did nothing wrong, is innocent, or that they support what they believe he may have done. I found them concentrated

most intensely I would say on a Reddit forum called Luigi Lour which has about 8,000 members and about 3,000 very active members so they describe themselves as an impartial and safe community dedicated discussing the case

uncovering hidden messages connected to the Luigi Mangione case however most of the content on there is essentially just going through pictures of him going through letters that he sent out discussing how he looks, his appearance they often reference old photos of him

online. The most popular picture on there is from his Tinder, which is a shirtless picture. And you can see his abs. So they are claiming that this is about his case and about sort of what he's done and healthcare in America. But really when you look through what they're actually talking about, it seems to be almost exclusively his physical appearance. His physical appearance. Does it feel like it's in earnest or a joke or is there irony or is it performative? I would say there's no irony for them this is deeply serious

it reminds me almost of like what you would read people talking about one direction you know they write fan fictions about him

they write songs about him there's one song that came out recently by an artist and I think Dominican Republic who described

him as an anti-capitalist sex symbol it's interesting anti-capitalist sex symbol sex symbol because part of this story

is the fact the man who was killed was the CEO of a health insurance company. And that is obviously a very contentious issue within the United States, the whole issue of health care and that of insurance. How much of the online support do you think is connected to the fact that that is part of the story? I mean, a huge amount of it is.

There is an official legal fund where people can donate for Luigi Mandione's trial. And at the moment it has one point. 3 million US dollars raised and the top donation is 50,000 US dollars from an anonymous user who wrote that their mother had been denied cancer care and they knew of many

people who'd been in that situation and therefore they supported him. A poll done quite soon after Brian Thompson was killed found that 41% of 18 to 29 year olds in the US found the murder somewhat or completely acceptable so

there is a huge element of this which is a support behind the political message that Luigi Mangione had. However, another decent portion of it is also just that people find him very attractive. You mentioned letters. How is he able, he's responding to fans? Yeah, he is. So it's quite an interesting thing where he seems to log

which letters he gets and where he gets them from. And somehow this is leaked online every week. And he details what countries people send them from. You have China, France, Iraq. Literally people all over the world sent him letters every single day and I think he must receive hundreds and then he responds to a very select amount of them which is quite contentious on the forum as to who gets the letter back and what Luigi says to one person that he doesn't say to another. There was a letter leaked this week where Luigi detailed how he had downloaded

Charlie XX and Taylor Swift onto his sort of iPad tablet and that went quite viral because obviously a lot of the women who would be a fan of him would be fans of that music. I found it slightly hard to believe. So every small detail is being chewed over. Let's bring in David here. Good to have you back with us, Professor. What do you make a little of what Fay is telling us

and this following that Luigi Mangione has? Well, there is what would be described in the literature as something called hebristophilia. There is an attraction that some women and also some men have towards offenders in general and sometimes offenders who use violence or lethal violence. There's both an aggressive form of a bristophilia and a more passive form. A more aggressive form of a bristophilia would be when the woman wants to engage in the crimes that the person has been alleged of having committed or indeed has committed.

And the more passive form, which is what I think Fay has been described, is simply when the woman becomes either sexually attracted to the person who is accused of having committed crime or indeed convicted of having committed crime. And that person idealises and sees the offender in a much more romantic and sexualized way. And I should make a distinction there, of course, between people who've been found guilty

or someone who's currently accused but denies the charges as in the case with Luigi Manjone. How do you understand the motivation? You talk about sexual attraction, but of course it's sexual attraction to just a certain sphere of people, David. Yes, and I mean sometimes

there are very instrumental reasons. You know, you can, as a consequence, as Faye was describing, there will be some women who have written to Mangione who get a letter, and that letter will provide detail. And so the simple, simple instrumental reason is if he writes back to you, you are seen as somebody

who's special. You can also sell the letter to the media. There's a way of amplifying your own status within that community and more generally. But there are also other things going on there, aren't there? There is that sense in which the sexual attraction to this person is constraint, is bounded. He's locked up. So there's a sense in which you control the relationship in the way you might not be able to control relationships in real life.

You know, you choose when you're going to write. You choose if you're going to send gifts. You choose if you're going to send money or when you might telephone that particular person. So there's a great deal of control going on in the relationship such as this. And with the majority of women holding that control, shall we say, when it comes to male, whether it's people that are accused or people that are in prison that they are writing to for the most part.

But this is, you know, an age-old phenomenon, David, right? I know we're talking about it in a digital age and that brings up perhaps more potential opportunities to be in touch with somebody like Luigi Manjone or somebody else. I'm wondering how you see that trajectory. That's a really good question. And of course, when I first encountered this phenomenon, when I was still working as a prison governor, we're in the pre-digital age, but it was still very much, I was still very much aware of it with some high-profile male offenders. I think there could be a case to argue, and I would be prepared to defend that case, that this could be an evolutionary adaptation strategy. You know, it really is age old, this attraction to the bad boy, the tough man, the aggressive man. And in that sense, if you want protection, if you want your offspring to survive,

teaming up with somebody who is a big scary monster could be an evolutionary adaptation strategy to make sure that your genes survive whilst other women's genes might not. Now, I think that might provide us with some kind of subconscious, unconscious reasoning as to why this phenomenon still occurs in the rate that it does in the digital age. Because I think, as you were pointing out quite rightly, this is something which is almost age old. Now, there might be people throwing things at the radio as we are talking, David. And if you give that explanation, you know, saying that, hang on a second, there's obviously something that has broken down somewhere if people are idolizing people that instead should not be put in that position at all. in fact, should be at the other end of the social spectrum.

But I'm wondering, Faye, when you have read through these articles, the letters, etc., we see pictures of women turning up in the court as well with free Luigi T-shirts, for example. Do you think people see the difference between reality and fantasy? No, I don't think they do. I think he is kind of this, it's almost like a sort of Robin Hood character. a social bandit who kind of will go around and take out people that do bad for the rest of the world and be willing to sort of spend a life in prison for the betterment of the general public. It's like, I don't think they actually think very hard about the fact that he

allegedly shot a man in the back of the head in broad daylight on a street. It is all fanciful. You can see it in these stories they write as playing the part. It's like a movie to them almost. David? Yeah, I mean, that totally fits with my own understanding of this phenomenon from having studied it. I'd also say, though, that, you know, often the people who are habistophiliacs have had very, very damaged backgrounds themselves. There's often in their childhood a lot of abuse, physical and sexual abuse. And so again, this idea of controlling a relationship comes back to the fact that they were unable to control what was happening to them in childhood. But it is an idealized form.

And we mustn't just think that that idealized form of how we look at offenders as aspirational simply applies in this situation. Look at the Netflix series monster where, you know, offenders, especially serial killers, are constantly being presented as people that should be admissible. admired as opposed to condemned. I mean, I was thinking, as you were speaking, with recent criminal cases, that there is an explosion online of armchair detectives and people thinking that they know exactly what happened in certain high-profile cases, when of course none of us know what's going on behind the scenes, that there is perhaps an acceptance online about being able to give your opinion on issues with authority that you may have no authority whatsoever.

And you know, that's, again, thank you. That's a really interesting point. And I would point out this. I recently went on a national tour and my tour manager convinced me I should go on TikTok and I foolishly agreed. And I'm amazed by TikTok and its use of offenders, its use of crime and punishment. And especially because so often in the past, there would have been a particular audience for true crime. And that audience demographic is definitely changing. It's becoming quite simply much younger. And I noticed that on the tour I've just finished, you know, in the past, I would usually be speaking to people in their 40s and 50s. Now I'm speaking to people in their teens and 20s. There's a real interest in true crime. And

there's a real interest in the subject area. Yeah, I think that's exactly what I was trying to get at, David, that fascination with true crime that has changed definitely over the past few years. Lots of food for thought there. Faye Curran, thank you so much. David Wilson, thank you so much as well. We will be covering this case, of course, on the BBC. There's lots of updates on the website right now in relation to Luigi Banjone as that case continues.

Thanks for all your messages coming in. On infertility, here's Liz. I was informed by my line manager that fertility treatment was a lifestyle choice. I knew that she honoured my leave reluctantly and only because there was robust HR protocols in place. Interesting. Another, my partner and I took annual

and unpaid leave for our IVF. We would never have expected anything else. In a small business, somebody else has to pick up the slack when a colleague takes additional time off work. As an employer, I would always support somebody to access fertility treatment, but how can I justify additional

paid leave for one person who elects to have IVF to the other employees who have to pick up the slack. Different sides off the aisle there. 84844 if you'd like to get in touch. Now, anyone watching Celebrity Traitors at the moment or indeed the previous traitors seasons, as probably noted, Claudia Winkleman's iconic looks and they sum up, let's see, chilly Scottish, castle chic, punk power dressing, perhaps a smidge of sinister. Gothic Victorian melodrama thrown into the mix well Claudia's stylist

is Sheenade McKeefrey and she has a huge following online people trying to pick up tips about how to look fantastic like Claudia and the power of social media is such that when items are worn by Claudia and you know

might just take one couple of screenshots off it it can have a real impact the small business owner Lauren Aston found that out in real time one of her designs appeared on the show and we're also joined by Alison Lynch. She's the head of content at Good Housekeeping magazine

and she's not only written about Claudia and the fashion, what would we call them, really iconic fashion looks. She even decided to dress as Claudia in The Traders for a week. We're going to find out about that as well. Alison, I have to start with you. Why? Why did you dress as Claudia? Well, it's just such a lot of fun.

And I think what people love about the show is just the theatre of Claudia's looks, for example, their funeral episode in Celebrity Traitors, where she wore the veil and the big Alexander McQueen coat. It's just a little bit of fantasy, but also you have the practical element as well that people can actually copy. It's a very – her look is very easy to copy. In a way, quite classic. So what, go on, give us an idea of one of the outfits you had on?

Well, I actually I did wear the Yeti look from No, you're going to have to explain this because some will have watched traitors religiously and others will not have caught it yet. Well, she did have, she wore this big fluffy cream coat

and these big Yeti boots last series which were really fun so I put those on and went down to St. James's Park for a little photo shoot. That was one of the more extreme looks. Did you get a few glances from people as you were making your way down.

Definitely. I think the tourists in central London are always quite confused. But it is practical. Like I love the big boots. You know, I like the Victorian. I like, you know, an extravagant cuff and perhaps even a pussy bow as well. And of course, you know, if you can pull off Claudius Fringe, I'd say go for that as well. But let us bring in Lauren for a minute

because Lauren, you heard that stylist extraordinaire Shanaid McKeephyry was interested in one of your designs and you've a knitware company. Tell us what happened. Lauren. Hi, hi, Neely. Yes. Oh, hi, sorry.

It's my Wi-Fi playing up again. No, we've got you. It's all good. Go ahead. Yeah, I have a knitwear company And we make ready-made knits and sell some knit kits. And Shanade and her team got in touch with us. It was back in the summer of 2023, actually, because it was for the 2024 season.

And they asked for some press loans. So we very happily sent off anything that they wanted. And we're delighted to hear that Claudia was going to be wearing one of our jumpers, which, yeah, has really changed the business. It's been fantastic. I mean, that's the dream. So she wore it in season two, I understand. It's a green, olive green, loose-nish.

You can probably describe it better than me. Yeah, yeah, it's in a colour we call forest green, which has again sold out now because of the Claudia effect. Her wardrobe is so iconic, isn't it? So anything she touches seems to turn to gold. And yeah, it's a forest green. It's a chunky roll-neck jumper that we, yeah, we hand-knit them all. So it was kind of like a mid-range, sorry, nearly.

No, no, no, I was just thinking. happens. I'm sorry to rush you along, but we need to get lots of details. We've only got a certain few minutes. She wears it during one of the programmes for how long? Yeah, it was half of the programme. So if you've watched the traitors, you know, when she comes into breakfast, she's wearing it, and then she also wears it for the challenge. So it was that whole half of the episode, which was incredible. And how were the phones, emails, etc. afterwards? Yeah, I mean, we couldn't keep up. We just, it was unbelievable. We, um, we had so many orders, I think, because we sell the knitting patterns as well. So we sold over 400

knitting patterns, 200 of the knit kits. We normally sell maybe 12 to 15 of the actual jumpers that we make as commissions because they cost about £300 because of the time involved. And we'd got a list of about 100 commissions within, I think, a month. But you have local ladies that are knitting. So I'm thinking like you'd want to be given them their wheatibics or whatever and start spinning. How did that go? It was a little bit tense actually because I went on maternity leave shortly afterwards as well I kind of abandoned them all

I'm saying send me the yarn and I'll try to knit a few before I have a baby and we'll just hope that I get to the end and then yeah the rest of the team were amazing and they managed to sort all of those commissions out while I was just in a baby bubble afterwards because yarn can be hard to come across if it's a specific yarn that is needed for a specific jumper Yeah, well, we, it's our chunky, it's our super chunky yarn. So we sell it. So, but like I said, because

Claudia wore the Forest Green, we, we sold out basically immediately. We sold all of our stock. We were contacting our suppliers, begging them to get it to us faster because it, we just couldn't get hold of it suddenly because it was so popular. So we did have, we had some really, like, I think the jumpers, because they take time anyway, but there was like an eight-week wait plus on the jumpers at one point. I mean, what makes something exclusive? you know, and you've got a waiting list, or what means that you miss the wave and the momentum? It's a really good question.

I think it depends on how much people want it, how much they're willing to wait for it. I think it really worked our advantage because we sell the patterns and the kits as well. So anybody who could knit was able to make it for themselves. And we did manage to get the yarn, and we do sell lots of other colours as well. So if they were willing to have it in black or red,

for instance, then they could, we've got lovely colours to choose from. But yeah, the forest green was very popular, thanks to Claudia. And also, I mean, season-wise, you've got to get it as well. Let me come back to you, Alison. How would you describe Claudia Winkleman style with the help of Shanaid McKefrey? I would say it's a mix of practical and fantasy, I guess, so she'll mix kind of the stompy boots and the cosy nits with a tulle skirt. And so it's kind of, it kind of makes you think again of the joy of fashion and the joy of dressing up.

It's kind of forgetting about trends and just kind of seeing what you pull out and what you can put together. I think that's why it translates so well. People just, it's fun. Claudia has such a unique look, though, you know, whether it's the fringe or the lips. And of course, she's got a really mischievous twinkle in her eye as well. But do you think her look is easy to pull off for everyone? I think it is. I think there's definitely a silhouette that's easy to recreate.

So you've got the skinny trousers, the Spanx leggings that are so famous. And then you have the kind of chunky nits on top and the great coats, the great outerwear, the fingerless gloves. Those are all pieces that you can get on the high street. She wears kind of classic coat. like the khaki pea coat that she wore recently, the trench coat. What about the capes? The capes, yeah, they're a bit, actually the cape coat is quite in this season.

So you can, we managed to find similar looks on the high street. Well, sadly, we don't have the embroidery on the back. Which said celebrities, if anybody has been watching the latest season, which of course tickled all of the celebrities that are taking part in it as well. But it has become quite a fashion feature in a way, I would even say. Alison, you know, even whether it's Jonathan Ross in his boiler suit and his giant, I don't know, black fur mantle that he's wearing around his neck. Can TV change fashion?

Yeah, I think it can. And I feel like a lot of the fashion we're seeing this season. There's a lot of tartan around. There's a lot of kind of those pieces that we're used to seeing on the traitors. I think it definitely is feeding into fashion now. And you can just see when I write about the show every night when it's on and how to get the looks. And you can see people are searching for it.

You can see people looking for it in real time. So it just shows the influence of shows like this. Yeah. I'm looking to get the look. We're trying to find out where all these jumpers, where Lauren's jumpers and trying to like desperately searching. We're very glad to hook you up and make the connection there, Lauren. It sounds like you might have another fan as well.

It's not just Claudia Winkleman. I want to thank both of you very much for coming on, Lauren Aston. One of her designs appeared on the show. Also, Alison Lynch, head of content at Good Housekeeping Magazine. and I think the celebrity traitors is going to be decided this week. I'm actually way behind. I've just started watching this season.

I know, I know. So I'm going to have to turn off social media or something and try and make it through to the end. I do want to let you know. Tomorrow I'll be joined by the renowned theatre director, Katie Mitchell, OBE. She will be explaining her recent announcement that she plans to retire from directing opera

because of the misogyny that she experiences working in that industry. Also a survey of boys in secondary schools by male allies UK has found just over a third to say they're considering the idea of an AI friend so we're going to talk about that as well I do hope you will join me for it it will be the exact same time right here for Women's Hour

at 10am and I want to thank you all as well for your many many messages that came in speaking about infertility I'll see you tomorrow that's all for today's Woman's Hour join us again next time as part of limelight from BBC Radio 4 this is the between Trade. The story of a family torn apart by a political extremism sweeping across Europe.

You see this guy in the red t-shirt? I'd allowed myself to believe that this moment would never come. Do you remember the looters outside the sports shop last year? The one guy who'd let his scar slip? I think that's him. My brother Frank, standing with a group of angry men, shouting abuse at the police. He's the same guy? I now knew that Frank was an anti-immigrant activist. Listen to the whole series right now, first on BBC Sounds. A new season of Love Me is here. Real stories of real, complicated relationships. It's not even like a gender.

I mean, it's wrapped up in gender, but it's just a really deep self-hate. I think I cried almost every day. I just stood myself on the floor. He's coming on really straight. It's like he's trying to. date you all of the sudden. Yeah, and I do look like my mother.

Love Me. Available now wherever you get your podcasts.