Woman's Hour - 04/05/2022

Episode Date: May 4, 2022

As Anne Robinson announces she's stepping down as the host of the Channel 4 quiz show Countdown, Emma Barnett catches up with her. Robinson was the first female to ever host the show, with 265 episodes under her belt since she joined just a year ago. After a career as a national newspaper journalist, she found fame in 2000 hosting the BBC quiz show The Weakest Link. Her acerbic wit led to her becoming labelled the “Queen of Mean”. For months now the apparent increasing shortage of hormone replacement therapy (HRT) has caused uproar, igniting debates in Parliament and triggering the appointment of an HRT tsar. A Channel 4 documentary earlier this week on the subject also talked about the use of testosterone to help with some menopausal symptoms. Dr Paula Briggs, Chair Elect of British Menopause Society and Consultant in Sexual and Reproductive Health at Liverpool Women’s Hospital discusses her concerns and unpicks the potential impact of using testosterone.The homelessness charity Shelter has found that nearly 230,000 private renters in England have been served with a formal no-fault eviction notice, known as a 'Section 21 eviction' in the last three years, since the Government first committed to scrap this form of eviction in April 2019. The charity has also found that while women and men are equally served these kinds of evictions by their landlords, they impact women more. Shelter is calling for the government to ban these kinds of evictions. Its Chief Executive Polly Neate joins Emma as does Lily, who was served a no-fault eviction notice in January 2022.Do you grow flowers in your garden? Have you ever thought about specifically growing flowers like you’d grow vegetables - in rows so you could pick them in order to have flowers for your home? It's a trend which has grown over the past 10 years amongst gardeners. Growing your own flowers means you can enjoy seasonal bouquets at a fraction of the cost of shop-bought blooms. Emma finds out more from Milli Proust, writer and floral designer in West Sussex , whose book Seed to Bloom is out in June, and Georgie Newbery - a flower farmer and founder of Common Farm Flowers in Somerset.Increasing numbers of women are reporting problems after having thread lift treatments, often known as “lunchtime facelifts”. Save Face, a national register of accredited practitioners of non-surgical cosmetic treatments, which campaigns to improve safety standards, says the number of complaints about the treatments by unregulated practitioners have more than doubled in the past year. Emma talks to its Director Ashton Collins.Presenter - Emma Barnett Producer - Alison Carter

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. And we start today's programme with a woman who doesn't mince her words, Anne Robinson. A former newspaper journalist, she made the headlines herself yesterday after stepping down from hosting Channel 4's Countdown after a year. Making way, as she put it, for an older woman to take the reins. And the first woman to regularly host the popular show also said she hopes her stint helped TV bosses realise that not all women her age are in care homes playing bingo. But her reason for stepping down caught my eye.

And that's what I wanted to ask you about today. She said, I have grandchildren, a large garden, a home in New York, all deserving more of my attention. Let me ask you this then, what have you quit and why? And what did you do with that time? Was it more time in the garden, with the family, a new project? Do let me know today. I'd love to hear from you. You can text me here at Woman's Island, 84844. Also, how did you quit? There's some brilliant quitting stories. How have you resigned? What were your best lines? What was a good moment? How did it feel? Let me know. Don't hold back. You never do. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email me through the Woman's Hour website. Also on today's

programme, as the BBC finds that potentially abusive men are using the Homes for Ukraine housing scheme to contact vulnerable Ukrainian women, I'll be joined by Polly Neate, the Chief Executive of Shelter, the homelessness charity, and of course, the former Chief Executive of Women's Aid. And what is the truth about menopausal women using testosterone? Of course, as the HRT shortage and supply issues are in the news most days now, and a lot of you are living with that, will try to get to the bottom of it. Plus, there'll be a confession on a completely separate discussion from me regarding fresh flowers. But all that to come, because yesterday, the journalist and presenter Anne Robinson

announced she'll be stepping down as the host from the Channel 4 quiz show Countdown. She is the sixth presenter of the programme, but the first female host, 265 episodes under her belt since she joined a year ago. And as the Dictionary Corner guest Rory Bremner put it on her first episode, there have been more men called Des hosting the show than there have women. Anne, of course, began her newspaper career as a journalist on the Daily Mail, but perhaps is most famous for hosting the BBC quiz show The Weakest Link. You did get that title Queen of Mean at that time as well. Good morning, Anne Robinson. Welcome to the programme.

Very, very nice to see you in the flesh. It is. It is. And how are you doing since you quit? Well, I might hang on to the lanyard and this because it'll make, I can go out and it looks as if I've got a job. We have given you a BBC lanyard today, a purple one around your neck. I'm not going to take it off. Saying visitor. Yeah.

You know, what the Queen says mostly to women, she says, what's keeping you busy? And that's because they mightn't have a job. So they can say, I'm playing the piano, I'm doing my garden, so I'm going to practice. How I explain I don't have a job. Is this the first time you've never had a job? It's the first time I've never had a job.

It's also the first time I haven't seen a job on the horizon. I've given myself a really big talking to, and I'm 78 this year, and I've really got to learn about retirement. Do you want to retire though? I haven't got any practice at it. I've got absolutely no practice. Maybe I'll start doing social media.

Well I did say just before we came on are you on social media? Your response was priceless or not. Well no one will pay me to be on social media. You've always always got to be paid Emma. The lesson, the lesson. But I said you could become an influencer. People do make money through it.

And your idea, I think, is genius. We can launch it here. We're going to teach women how to... What we're going to do, and you know, I marched so that your generation would all be really clever at negotiating your salaries and your pay. And you're all absolutely hopeless at it. I see you're going to do this. I mean, why? It's so easy. It's only a, you know, there's about six steps to getting the money you want. But what happens is some bloke comes in with his friend and says, gives you the interview and says, we're going to pay you this. And you say, thank you very much. What you have to realise, they go outside and they do high fives, because you've accepted the first offer. Well, we've got a lot of work still on setting up your account and starting this business together. But can I bring you back to countdown just for a minute? Because if you if it's really

interesting, if it is the first time, no other job on the horizon. Yeah, you've just quit. Why now? Why did you think after a year? Well, to be fair, I'd signed up for a year. I think I've done 30 or 40 more than the year. And I really thought this is silly because it eats into my time. I mean, it's wonderful, but it is the other end of the country. It just swallows up too much time. And for the first, for the first time I thought, you know, say no. What did you learn from doing the show? What did you get from it? Well, I can put the days of the week in the correct order. I can do anagrams.

I can slightly do the arithmetic. And I suppose I've learned how astonishingly clever people are and how much practice bears the success. Yes, and how well they do in the problems. And also how you've got a Cambridge first against somebody who's been on a production line since they were 15. And it's perfectly possible that the less educated will win. How frustrated have you been that some think it's because of a rift between the women on the show? You, Rachel, Riley, of course, Susie Dent in Dictionary Corner.

They're both brilliant at what they do. I mean, they really, really are. I mean, Channel 4 is incredibly lucky to have them. And there isn't a rift. Do you think that's that classic pitting women against each other, needing to find a story? No, not really. I mean, it was me wanting everyone to be quiet in the studio. Oh, is that what it was? Do you think that's where it came from? I like everyone turning up on time and quiet, quiet, quiet.

So we did have to iron that out, but that's it. What does that mean, iron that out? I'm thinking how it would be to be ironed out by Anne Robinson. OK, because you're quite tricky. You know, when I was on Woman's Hour this time last year, nobody asked me any probing questions. I'm sure they did. No, I tell you, your colleague wanted to know

why there was so much pressure on women to dress up for television. There isn't any pressure. Is there, Emma? I like hearing about the ironing out and how it works. Very tenacious. I think we all came to an agreement that we could have mics off before we went into a record, which gives me time, which gave me time to have a chat with the contestants. That's all.

And remind them what their hobbies were. Rachel Riley also dismissed reports of a feud and she said, you don't believe any of that and that you're not the cuddliest in the world and it's a different show and you've made it your own. And she said, you have a different flavour. You'd made it funny and sometimes it was barbed. She talked about you in that way and also was on the same page. I mean she is brilliant at those numbers what else can I say? Indeed well who's it going to be to take over from you because I liked

what you said an older woman to take on the baton and yet when I look through the odds. Okay you've got Prulice, Mary Berry then you've got me okay when you go down you've got Prulice, Mary Berry. Then you've got me. OK, when you go down, you've got Kirsty at 67. And then where do you go after that? News readers all under 60. You mean to talk about Kirsty... Walk. Walk, yeah.

I'm just checking because I was thinking about also she's not that age, you're right, but Kirsty Young. Any other Kirsty will be very upset. I think they're 67. That was you, Emma. You thought it was another Kirstyirstie. I've got to get my Kirsties right. Yeah. Okay. So there's a couple there that you've listed. Only a few. Is your point there needs to be, it's a challenge to get an older woman back into that spot? I just wonder why there aren't, why there's a cutoff, a sort of unconscious cut-off. It's interesting, both here and in America,

especially local news, you'll see a guy with no hair next to a young, beautiful girl. It's sort of that younger wife complex thing, isn't it? Yeah. The one with no hair is always not funny. Regional television. Actually, when I did The Weakest Link in America... I was going to say, you've got the experience of working there. They paid the audience and that allowed them,

they paid them $100 to come in and watch the show and that allowed them to move the pretty girls to the front. Really? So everyone's quite two-faced about this. Wow, OK. So I was looking at the list. Victoria Corrin's on there. Maurice Stewart, Richard Osman.

Any of those appeal for the potential replacement? Would you place a bet? I think Richard's too rich. He has done rather well in the book charts lately, hasn't he? He's done brilliantly. He has. He has. Your plans then. You said you're going to struggle particularly with the idea of retirement,

but the garden, are you into that? Is that you? I'm going to try. I'm going to sack all the gardeners. And do it yourself? Yeah. I can shop more for clothes, but I won't have anywhere to wear them.

It is, you know, there's a wonderful old Anthony Newley musical which was called The Roar of the Grease Paint, The Smell of the Crowd, and it is very alluring, I think. All I ever wanted to do when I was growing up was not to be a scientist. I just wanted to be famous. And you always knew that? Yeah.

I mean, if you came from a very suburban part of Lancashire, that wasn't a bad idea, really. I was looking back at some of your work, some of your journalism, and I wanted to ask you about something we were talking about yesterday. Of course, many people still talking about today for good cause. There is the concern that the legal right to abortion in America could be about to be overturned. There's been an unprecedented leak of a draft US Supreme Court document which shows that might be on the

cards. And you made a documentary, I remember watching this, in 2017 to mark 50 years since the Abortion Act in this country. And you spoke about your own experience. Perhaps we'll come to that in just a moment. But you've got a place in America and you've worked there, of course, you'll be very familiar with the politics as well. What is your reaction to this? I'm just horrified. You know, I was around before it was legal, backstreet abortions, the people who could get abortions, and it'll happen in America, of course, you can pay, you can always pay to have an abortion or find doctors who will sign a piece of paper. But for women, you know, this isn't what we march for. We march for absolute freedom. And the idea that it's going backwards, just as I think we're bringing Northern Ireland round, it's just so sad. And it's nobody else's business. It's our bodies. I mean, I really can't believe it. Did you ever think you'd see this in your lifetime? No, of course. I mean, the amount

of campaigning I remember as a young reporter, going and watching an abortion in the very, very early days, because, you know, we didn't know what it was. Nobody really knew what was involved because before then it had been illegal. And on my programme there was David Steele who, to his credit, got the legislation through. And you also spoke about your own experience. Yeah, and it was really frightening because there was nothing written about it so first of all you really didn't know what you were going into and secondly when you'd had an abortion you weren't ready for horrific depression and beating yourself up because it wasn't until then

perhaps you realised exactly what you'd done. And if I had my time again, would I have done it? No, I wouldn't actually. Really? No. Why not? I don't know. I'd still want the right to do it.

Yes. But I think that life is too precious. Not that, I mean, that's my opinion and that's what I would do. I certainly wouldn't deny anyone else the opportunity to make the choice. But you, because you were in your early 20s, it wasn't long after it had been legalised. And why did you feel at the time you should do it? I think I was overwhelmed at, I was very early into a marriage that I wasn't sure was going to really work.

And I was too frightened, I think. But my fear now would be the fear of sort of cutting off a life would be too much. Really? Yeah. And did it change you afterwards for you to have that regret? Did it stay with you? I think that I didn't think about it for a long time, but I do remember when I did the programme in 2017,

I really had to consider it all again. And, you know, I really felt quite surprised at my reaction of having to talk about it. Because you had those feelings of regret? Yeah, yes. I mean, it's a huge thing. And I don't think you, your body reacts in a certain way that you're not expecting, you know. I think you really do go through a tremendous amount of grief. Yes, even though that was, as you say, your choice, your right at that point. Yeah, yeah.

I think some of the messages we got yesterday were very along those lines in the sense of when this gets talked about, it's almost like when you're demanding the rights, the reality of it, the emotion of it can also be forgotten and how hard it is for women who choose to do it, the emotion of it can also be forgotten. And how hard it is for women who choose to do it and then go through it. Yes, and choose to do it and then regret. I mean, some of the women we had on that documentary deeply, deeply regretted. But they weren't saying take away this opportunity from other women.

Yes. And of course, as as we say it's at the moment it's a might in America but I'm minded to mention this morning Oklahoma's governor has just signed a bill banning abortion. It's just horrific. After about six weeks of pregnancy it'll slightly differ state by state but I think you know it's very important to hear how women feel about it afterwards as well and the other thing I just wanted to ask you about was a message we came in yesterday said, you know, regardless of your position, if you make something illegal, there's shame attached to it.

And there's already shame attached to it for a lot of people. Well, I was going to say that you don't need any more shame because once you've had an abortion, the shame is enormous. And it's crippling, absolutely crippling. Yeah. It makes me shiver now to think about it, actually. Well, thank you for talking about it. You're very pretty. Do you want to come back?

If you're not very employed at the moment, we can have you back on. Yeah, we could do a double act. We could job share. I could do... Women's are for very, very, very old people. No, no, no, we cater to all at the moment. But yes, we'll take you up on that, Anne Robinson.

She's already... Well, we haven't negotiated the fee yet. I'll have to get you in a room. You'll have to cut yours a bit. I'm taking the lanyard with me, so I can pretend I've got a job. Anne Robinson, as ever. I knew it'd be good.

It was better. Thank you very much for talking to us. Your messages are going to be coming in about quitting. I hope to get to those very shortly indeed. But she's off and she's taking that lanyard with her. Lovely to talk to you, Anne. Now, in a moment, we're going to be talking about a story to do with housing and something called no-fault evictions,

a situation impacting women more at the moment, especially during a cost of living crisis. But first, Polly Neate, the Chief Executive of Shelter, the Homelessness Charity, and the former Chief Executive of Women's Aid is on the line with me. And I wanted to get your take, if I may, Polly, first on a BBC News story this morning, which has found that potentially abusive men are using the Homes for Ukraine housing scheme to contact vulnerable female Ukrainian refugees. Polly, good morning. Good morning.

Of course, this concerns housing. I know it's not your particular area of speciality in terms of the details of the scheme. But as a former chief executive also of Women's Aid, we're also hearing in this report that men with domestic abuse records have also signed up. What is your response? I mean, I wish I could say that I was surprised. I have seen, obviously, the news item. And just to stress, all I know about this is what anyone knows, as in I've seen the news about the BBC findings. But I can't say I'm surprised because, you know, if you create a situation of power imbalance

and you don't put sufficient safeguards in place, some people will exploit that. And what that will mean is that women and children will end up vulnerable. I'm afraid that is how it is. And that's why in every situation, in fact, you know, we're going to be talking about it in a minute with renting. You know, we always get this all the time. Not all landlords are bad. And, you know, you have with me, too, as well, you know, not all men.

Well, no, absolutely. And it's brilliant that people are prepared to give up their homes for Ukrainian refugees. But unless. Oh, your line's just cut out there, Polly. We're hoping to get you back. I think you were going on to talk about unless a certain scenario was met or the tests are there in place. We're just going to fix up your line, Polly Neate. Just let me do that in a moment. But let me read you just about with regards to this story.

My colleagues on BBC News who've broken this story and put these concerns out there have a statement from a female refugee who's been in this situation. And she says, we'd never left Ukraine before. The volunteers told us about it, helped to find a match for a host. They helped us complete the application form. We got travel and a visa and I was going to have a safe place for my children. She goes on to say, we spoke to the man on WhatsApp. He told me he was registered with the government scheme and wanted to help. He showed me the room and said he'd been making space and that there would be

beds when I arrive. And when we arrived, there was no bed, just a mattress on the floor. The apartment is cold. And when I put on the heater, he shouts, there's no food in the kitchen. We have no money yet. And we asked about getting universal credit. And he says we must go and do that on our own. He said he had no job himself, no money. And he said the host money would pay his debts. He said we are safe now. I messaged the volunteer people from the shelter and they helped to find a new host. And now we have what we need. So a very vivid portrait there. Polly, I'm not quite sure how much you could hear of that, but just sharing with our listeners. Yes, I did. I'm so sorry about that. No, no, don't worry. But you were going on to talk about, I imagine, you know, safeguards and your response. So do carry on. Yes. Well,

what I was going to say is that in any situation where you have a power imbalance, you must have the right safeguards in place because otherwise some people will exploit that and the people that will end up vulnerable are women and children and you know we're going to see that in what we're talking about section 21 you see it in in situations where there are not proper safeguards in the system or there's a severe power imbalance in the system you will get exploitation it doesn't mean there aren't wonderful people offering their homes to Ukrainian refugees, but they're doing it within a system that doesn't properly protect vulnerable women and children. And just with your knowledge about those, and again, can't stereotype or make generalisations,

but there will have been learnings that you have, especially in your former role as CEO of Women's Aid, about the pattern of domestic abusers and deceit, you know, using deceit to get what you want. Absolutely. And, you know, it's extremely naive to think that obsessive perpetrators of abuse won't use any way they can find in order to find somebody that they can exploit. That is how perpetrators operate, I'm afraid. Well, the government has rejected these criticisms and has said attempts to exploit vulnerable people are despicable. Quote, the Homes for Ukraine scheme has safeguards in place, including home office security and background checks on all sponsors before visas are issued. Councils also conduct checks and must make at least one

in-person visit to a sponsor's property. Moving on to what you were coming on to talk to already, but I did, as I say, want to make sure we gave you the opportunity to talk about that story that's just broken in the news this morning. Housing and no-fault evictions. Your organisation, Poly Shelter, has found in new research that nearly 230,000 private renters in England have been served with a formal no-fault eviction notice, also known as Section 21 eviction, that's what you mentioned, since the government first committed to scrap them in April 2019. And your charity has found that while women and men are equally served these kinds of evictions by their landlords, they impact women more. And just to explain, a no-fault eviction gives a tenant two months to leave their home. The landlord does not need to give any reason for evicting them, although they do have to fulfil other requirements like protecting a renter's deposit for the notice to be valid. Polly, the ban has, or the hope for a ban has been in place since 2019? That's right, yeah. So the government first committed to removing no-fault evictions as

part of an overall renter's reform bill, whichices within the system, really, and kind of slightly rebalance the power within the system, I guess, in favour of tenants, which we think is absolutely essential. And in fact, these no-fault evictions are a prominent, you know, a leading cause of homelessness. And in terms of what can be done to make sure that this is something that is actioned, I mean, I'm looking at the statement from the government. They said here, a spokesperson's given us a statement saying, our private rented sector white paper will set out reforms to make rent a fairer, including banning Section 21 as soon as possible. They also talk about providing a £22 billion worth package of support to help households with rising costs. Of course,

that was on the agenda yesterday with the Prime Minister talking to Good Morning Britain to Susanna Reid. But they say in the statement, this includes putting an average of £1,000 more per year into the pockets of working families via universal credit and direct support for bills. Just coming back though to the no fault evictions, Polly, do you believe the government on this? Well, you know, a white paper and doing it as soon as possible isn't what we were expecting or hoping for. What we were hoping for was to see no-fault evictions banned in the forthcoming Queen's Speech, which is imminent. And if it isn't in there, it will be deeply disappointing, to be honest with you, because, you know, 24 families a day in those three years have been served with these no-fault evictions. And this is tipping particularly single

mothers and their children into a homelessness system that's already at crisis point. So we're talking about highly unsuitable bed and breakfast accommodation. We're talking about instability for children, you know, having to move frequently because they keep being evicted. It just isn't on. And we're not seeing the level of urgency, given that this promise is three years old. We are not seeing the level of urgency from government that we need. I'm now able to talk to Lily. We're not using her real name, who's a healthcare worker and has been able to talk to us today, who's been served with one of these with a no-fault eviction by her landlord in January of this year. Lily, good morning. Welcome to the programme.

Good morning, Emma. Thank you for inviting me. Can you tell us what happened? So I've been renting. We've been in the same house with children and myself for five years. And in January of this year the landlord served me with a section 21 notice and I was supposed to move out on March the 17th I immediately got in contact with the local council and was put on the risk of homelessness register i have a what's called a housing needs officer i'm one of 70 people on her caseload and i've been looking um to um find somewhere another private um let but i've literally only had um last week i had um three viewings but since january i've had six viewings in total

one of the reasons for that is um i'm not familiar this was a thing before but before i can actually get a viewing um letting agents are sending out a form, which is very, very, I consider it to be very intrusive. And it asks for information, very personal information, that normally would not be requested until references are taken up and credit checks are undertaken. But this is being taken, this information is being requested before a viewing is being granted. Because of my personal... Sorry, all I was going to say just at that point i mean because you know you you're

of course sharing the detail which is important but but how did it actually make you feel when you were served this and were you given any prior warning um well i got the letter on monday and i was told before the weekend to expect a letter because I actually have a, you know, I have a good relationship with a managing agent. But I was completely shocked, to be honest. I was expecting the letter to have been secure and it wasn't. It came out of the blue. And I mean, you know, this is your home. This is your life. Yeah, exactly. I mean, we've been there for five years. My children are settled, I'm settled. And we were never expecting to be, well, certainly not in this situation at this point in our lives. So to say that we were highly distressed by it would be an understatement.

And for you now, what's life looking like? And how are you handling this? I'm sorry, I can hear you're upset as well. I mean, I should acknowledge that. And I appreciate how difficult this is to talk about. Life is on hold, to be honest with you. The way it stands at the moment is the local council have said that under no circumstances should I leave

because if I leave I will be classed as intentionally homeless so I'm at this point where I'm waiting for the landlord to evict me so I'm actually waiting for court papers to come through with an eviction date at which point it me, I'll be a high priority as far as social housing is concerned. But it's hugely stressful because we're living in limbo. Yes. And that's the point, Polly, isn't it? Just to bring you back in. Lily, thank you so much for sharing some of your story there. And as I say, I can hear how upsetting this is for you. But listening to that, Polly, who's the chief executive of Shelter, the limbo is it's a word that accurately describes it. But again, doesn't go to the lengths that this affects people's lives.

The instability is just awful for people. all the time is people living in really unsuitable awful conditions which they don't dare to complain about the landlord could serve them a no-fault eviction notice effectively as a kind of revenge eviction if they complain about poor conditions so that's the other thing that we see as an impact of these uh these section 21 notices, you know, for women and children, single mothers, it is, the instability is just awful. Children being uprooted all the time, not knowing where they're going to be living and also knowing full well that the homelessness system,

as I was saying, is not really going to provide them with any sort of satisfactory place to live. And, you know, there are 1.1 million people on the waiting list for social housing. The last thing we need is to be tipping more vulnerable women and their children onto this waiting list into bed and breakfast accommodation. The government need to take action on this as a matter of urgency and not kick it into the long grass which is what we're worried about well i read that statement with regards to the attention on this and i should say polly a message that's just come in saying my landlord stalked me and when i refused uh to be in the property when he came around he sent me

one of these sections that we're talking about so it's uh it's also another scenario there that that is absolutely and and it's a system where tenants don't have enough power of course there are lots of great landlords absolutely not all landlords for sure but um you know it's a system in which um vulnerable tenants and particularly women who are on benefits or, you know, which loan parents are much more likely to be. You know, it's a system that makes them unfairly vulnerable. Pauline, Lily, thank you very much for talking to us. A statement here from the National Residential Landlords Association, which says the vast majority of landlords do not spend their time looking for ways to get rid of tenants for no reason.

Official data shows that fewer than 10% of tenants who move do so because they're asked to by their landlord or letting agent. Likewise, the number of cases coming to court as a result of Section 21 notices has been falling since 2015. But simply getting rid of it on its own would, for example, make it all but impossible

to take action against antisocial tenants who blight the lives of neighbours and fellow tenants. That from the National Residential Landlords Association. And some of your messages about renting also still coming in. I'll give you a bit more time to get in touch on that. But you've also been getting in touch with the back of my conversation with Anne Robinson, who opened up about her own abortion, having made a film about 50 years of abortion in this country for the BBC in 2017. Off the back of that, we were just talking about the news in America

with that leak from the Supreme Court, which could see Roe versus Wade, the 1973 act which made abortion legal nationwide in America could see that overturned. Helen says, great to hear Anne Robinson sticking up for women's rights to decide themselves about abortion and the horrific changes happening in America. Another one here, thank goodness for Anne Robinson.

That's what Donny just wants to say, or Jo, though she's called, but her name is different on Twitter. Enjoying listening to Anne Robinson this morning, talking to Emma, hope to hear more of her. Well, I think we did a deal at the end of it there, but I don't know if we can afford her. There's another message here and this whole more of her. Well, I think we did a deal at the end of it there, but I don't know if we can afford her. There's another message here and this whole suite of messages. Thank you so much because Anne came on originally to talk about

her first broadcast interview since announcing she's quitting hosting Countdown after a year of doing so. On retiring, this one from Karen says, what the hell to do with the rest of my life? I sit here now, 15 years later, this is an answer to Anne's question, at my potter's wheel. This interspersed with grandchildren, community involvement, gardening, choir.

It gives me loads to get up for. And with your quitting stories, Ed says, I just quit. Board director, structural engineer. I ran an engineering group, ran a 250 strong design team for restoration and the renewals. Advocate for women in engineering

and a multidisciplinary design. Good for you. What are you going to do now? And Rio says, I quit religious education teaching and I'm retrained to be a doctor, currently training in paediatrics, so still working with children, just with the easier adult to child ratio of one to one.

Mad respect for all teachers out there. Keep those messages coming in, please. 84844. But in the midst of the major row over HRT shortages, hormone replacement therapy, that is, the use of testosterone has been raised as helping with some menopausal symptoms. As the newly appointed HRT SAR, appointed by the government, she's called Madeleine McTernan. She was part of the COVID vaccine task force. As she gets to grips with the supply issues, what will help those women suffering?

Well, Dr Paula Briggs, chair elect of the British Menopause Society and consultant in sexual and reproductive health at Liverpool Women's Hospital, joins me now. Good morning. Good morning. I thought we'd start with the testosterone side of this because it's been coming up in documentaries, in conversations, in articles about it helping with some menopausal symptoms. What do you say to that? I think it can help women who have low libido, low sexual desire. And that's really the indication for adding testosterone. I think, you know, we are talking mainly about women who are already using oestrogen and possibly a progestogen as well to protect any of their womb so it would be very very unusual to initiate

testosterone in women not already using HRT. So in terms of where this comes in the mix it's already as part of a suite of treatment you would Yes, definitely. I think the issue really is that there isn't a licensed treatment for women available on the NHS. And therefore, if we are going to provide women with testosterone, the only option at present on the NHS is to provide them with a male product out of product license, which isn't desperately unusual, but I think it makes it a little bit more complicated for GPs who are perhaps less confident using testosterone. And it's they're not obliged to prescribe out of licence. Are you concerned? I mean, while it's I'm sure you very much welcome, you know,

high profile people from Davina McCall through to other journalists and campaigners now being able to have more of the limelight. Are you concerned about some of the messages with regards to testosterone out there and perhaps the confusion around it? Yeah, I mean, I think we really appreciate what the documentary has done to raise awareness generally. But I think it's very important that any woman considering using any form of hormone replacement therapy sees somebody who has a reasonable level of knowledge so that could be their GP and GPs can be extremely good at providing menopause care they may be able to provide them with testosterone but what we don't want I suppose is all women thinking that they should have HRT or that things will be solved by just using testosterone. Lack of libido is a complicated issue. It may be related to relationship issues.

It may be affected by the influence of lack of oestrogen on tissue quality. So it needs a proper clinical assessment. And in terms of the side effects, because, of course, many talking about the benefits. I mean, you can also speak to that if you want. But the side effects of it, what would you say on that? I think it's really important that women use an appropriate amount. And that's a little bit complicated when they're using a product out of license. So I think for the vast majority of patients that I see, side effects are not an issue. We would occasionally measure a free androgen index, which gives you the amount of freely available testosterone before prescribing treatment.

And it's important that we maintain the levels within the female physiological range to reduce side effects. But potential side effects include things like acne, becoming hairy. Hairiness at the site of application is not that uncommon in my clinical opinion, but becoming generally hirsute, so facial hair, is not particularly common. If women were using extremely high doses, then they may potentially get voice changes or an enlargement of the clitoris, which can be difficult to manage. How's the shortages or not shortages where you are? Because of course, the shortage and the supply issue has become a very big story in the last few days and weeks and months.

Yeah, it is an issue. I'm in the middle of doing a telephone clinic at the moment and I make sure that I'm saying to women that I'm speaking to, if you can't get oestrogel, for example, then this is my recommended alternative. And the British Menopause Society publishes an equivalence dose information that's available to all clinicians and to patients as well that would help them choose an alternative method for this, what we hope will be a relatively short period of time.

Because, of course, you know, we're hearing stories. I mean, I even spoke to a Conservative MP the other day who's having to get some drugs from a friend, you know, a fellow MP. And I think, you know, a lot of people are obviously very concerned about this at the moment. Yeah, patients should not be getting drugs or treatments from their friends and i think no but that's what's happening you know you can't you can't you can't endorse that in any way and she wasn't endorsing it and i'm not asking you to but that is the the reality for some even mps right now okay so it's not an hrt

shortage that we're dealing with it's a very specific shortage of oestrogel and there are lots and lots of other alternative options and the equivalence information will help. I mean, it might not be as good as what the patient was using previously, but at least we have alternative options that we can recommend. Yes. And the HRT SAR, as they're being called, do you think that's a good move to have somebody in that? I do think it's a good move. I somebody in that? I do think it's a good move. I think it needs to be somebody with strategic overview. I think that the current situation has lightly been influenced by an increase in demand. And, you know, that is a good thing. But pharmaceutical companies need to be looking at how much HRT they have in stock so that there isn't the same supply and demand problem

as we've experienced now. Thank you very much for talking to us. Again, I'm sure we will return to this as it continues. And also, I very much hope we can welcome the HRT SAR. As I was saying, it's Madeleine McTernan, who was part of the COVID Vaccine Task Force, to Women's SAR, Dr Paula Briggs. Thank you to you, Chair-elect of the British Menopause Society.

Now to something else completely, or perhaps you do this to make yourself feel better. Do you grow flowers in your garden? Have you ever thought about specifically growing flowers like you'd grow vegetables in rows so that you could pick them to have flowers in your home, in a vase, not having to buy them from a shop? Cut flower gardening, as it's known, is a trend which has grown, get it, sorry, amongst gardeners over the past decade. Growing your own flowers means, of course, you can enjoy seasonal bouquets at a fraction of the cost of shop-bought blooms. Millie Proust, a writer and floral designer in West Sussex, who's got a book out this year called Seed to Bloom, joins me now,

as does Georgie Newbury, a flower farmer and founder of the Common Farm Flowers in Somerset warm welcome to you both Millie have I described that right cut flower gardening how is it how's it different to normal gardening? Well there's a lot to be said on that because firstly the fraction of the price is slightly tricky because it is still as expensive to grow flowers here as it is to buy imported. There's a lot of subsidised stations on imported flowers. So it is actually sometimes more expensive to buy from your local grower. But what I meant by that is if you do it yourself uh that that's that's a bit cheaper that is a bit cheaper and everyone can grow cut flowers even if you just have a window box and no access to a garden you

can grow cut flowers but cut flower gardening is is slightly different from um gardening because you're going to take from the garden um which often we're discouraged when we're little not to take anything from the precious parents garden so it is some getting your head around it but um you can grow a garden as you would and and take flowers from it um i really encourage people to mine from what they already have it be it shrubs or perennials lots of them make excellent cut flowers and and then and not feel guilty take them and not feel bad not feel guilty enjoy them in the house yes bad. And not feel guilty. Enjoy them in the house. Yes. My slight confession here, which I feel a bit nervous about admitting on the radio and to both of you,

Georgie, I'll bring you in in just a moment, is I absolutely can't bear it when people bring me flowers. I just see it as work in the house. Got to clean the vase after, got to maintain them. You've brought me something that's going to die. I'm going to kill it very quickly. Actually, leave it in the garden is kind of where I'm at, although I'm not very good at gardening yet. Is that awful to admit to you, Millie? I think so. I think flowers can really liven up a room. And for me, watching a flower fade is one of the most beautiful things to witness. And it brings us closer to the cycle of nature, which I think we're often taken away from, that we are just part of a large cycle of composting. And I think watching flowers bloom, peak and fade,

tulips are especially beautiful at this time of year, and they die so gracefully. I think it is a real pleasure. They make a bit of a mess, Millie. They start shedding the petals on there, and someone told me to put a copper piece in there, keep them upright. Now I've got to scrub the vase, and I've got to do that with a certain way i mean yes okay i i i'm

i'm really actually telling the truth it's similar to cooking i think because we cook every day we have to clean pots and pans we had to clean it for me cleaning of ours but it's a death a bouquet is a death you've brought me something that's just good you've killed to give to me i would argue that that is a really beautiful thing to bring more into our lives. The cycle of life and death is one of the most beautiful things about being alive is that it all carries on past us being there. So I really think it's a beautiful thing to watch.

I bet you didn't think we were going to have a debate about this, but I toyed with whether to share this or not because my heart slightly sinks if someone someone arrives and even if they're beautiful and my mother still brings me flowers no matter what I've said to her about this Georgie good morning welcome to the program good morning thanks for having me I feel awful to to be faced with a flower farmer after what I've just said but we're talking about cut flower farming and I gardening excuse me and I have to say I love them in other people's homes because they're looking after them and they know what to do. It's more about me.

And I wonder about this particular, this trend. You weren't always doing this. This has been a second career for you. Is that right? Yes, I'm definitely a serial career person. So I've been a journalist. I've worked for American Vogue in Paris. I've written novels. I've, anyway American Vogue in Paris. I've written novels. Anyway,

I ended up living in Somerset and needed to find a way to make a living. And a neighbor sent me a bouquet of flowers. And I will admit, I have in my time grown a lot of vegetables, but my family didn't eat them. And I didn't enjoy the beauty of the cabbage in the garden. I mean, a cabbage takes about 10 months to mature and the space it takes. And it's covered in things eating it. And no, no, no. On the other hand, I found I was very good at growing sweet peas. So I was already selling sweet peas in bunches outside my front gate to the passersby. Because, you know, if you don't cut your sweet peas, they don't keep flowering.

And then a neighbor sent me a bunch of flowers in the post. And I had a complete lightbulb moment because I was like, well, I can do this. And so I, the next day, started a business growing bouquets. And I think the whole thing about whether you grow for cutting or grow, what it does is, I think, as a mental health thing, if you can run a business which is this good for your mental health, then why wouldn't you do it? Anybody can farm their garden, even on a really quite a modest space. You could be a specialist dahlia grower or a specialist sweet pea grower.

You don't have to be like me. I grow stupid amounts of flowers and do a stupid amount with them. But what I often say to people is people don't have always a very intense relationship with their garden. Whereas, and people often will stand on the back doorstep with a cup of tea and just sort of see a general view. They don't get up close and personal with their garden. So what I challenge people to do is to take a pair of scissors, walk around their garden with a bucket or a vase or a jug or something, and cut 30 stems into that jug out of their garden. And the garden will not, you will not know you've been there, you will not break the garden garden up those 30 stems and put them together on your kitchen

table and a i'm afraid it becomes a mildly addictive activity uh but b through the year you can do this in january with twigs with lichen on and a tiny little bit of pulmonary and oh i could just listen to you say these words all morning i don't know how anything means you don't see them if you just stand on your back doorstep. But if you go out there with a pair of scissors looking for them, then you've got to create something amazing. I've got a vision of me with sniffing some dandelions and just whacking them in a mug.

Dandelions stand very nicely in water. Take your coffee cup. I challenge you, Emma. Coffee cup, pair of scissors, mix it, go for it. I feel like I'm going to have to report back.

And I'm also, I've touched a nerve. There's a message that's just come in from Lou who says, Emma, I'm with you on this about flowers and receiving them. I've always said I'd rather receive a cabbage

or a cactus than a bunch of flowers. Bringing together what you were just saying about cabbages there. I give people trees and plants, never cut flowers. Lou, thank you very much for that message. That's a great message. I do think... Of course, solidarity. Millie, go on.

I think giving people plants is a wonderful thing. Like I get given roses for my birthday because my birthday's in June, but I cut from my roses. And I think maybe, maybe you just haven't been given the right bouquet yet because a lot of imported flowers are not as beautiful they don't have the life they haven't been touched by the weather but flowers that have been grown locally that are touched by the weather they have scent they have such beauty I think you just need to be sent the right bunch of flowers Georgie I really want to bring you back in but I just wanted to say of course you know people standing there looking around uh may not be the best at this and will take you up on this. Of course, some people don't have gardens. They'll be thinking about this from a very different perspective.

But some also will be feeling they can't go in with a pair of scissors and do exactly what you've just said. I think the other thing I just wanted to bring up, because I know this will be on some people's minds, and I'll put this to you as a flower farmer, Georgie, is, you know, people like the idea, of course, of perhaps doing things closer to home from an ethical perspective, the environment perspective. I was also minded of the fact that behind the millions of imported flowers we buy every year is a mostly female workforce.

Sometimes and often it's reported subjected to low pay and poor conditions. Have you thought about that in terms of your offering when you farm your flowers, Georgie? Absolutely. We here growing in the UK, we have to grow within the law in this country. So we cannot use all the pesticides

and herbicides that we like. Personally, I use no pesticides or herbicides at all. I consider my flower farm as a carbon sink. I have created a carbon sink which feeds my environment. I would never spray anything. And if I have something covered in green fly, I jump up and down for joy because soon will come the ladybird. If you don't have a green fly, what's the ladybird going to eat? So I'm feeding my environment, but it is also difficult as a grower. We have the same overheads in this country as any other small business.

And so, so long as I explain to my customers that we have those overheads, then they understand why my flowers cannot be, I can't sell stems at 10, 15p a stem because I can't afford to cut them for that price. I can't afford the mortgage on the land. So there is a real balance between growing a small business. because I can't afford to cut them for that price. I can't afford the mortgage on the land. So there is a real balance between growing a small business. I mean, this is definitely a lifestyle business. I work very, very hard, but I love it. So I'm lucky. But as with any small business, you've got to sit down and work out the finances

so that you've got enough in your pocket at the end of the year to pay your twice the price electricity bill. Indeed. And of course, with the cost of living and much of those discussions going on at the end of the year to pay your twice the price electricity bill. Indeed. And of course, you know, with the cost of living and much of those discussions going on at the moment, it's a very pertinent part of this. Georgie, I feel we're going to meet again and I'm going to have to report back to you.

And anyone who would ever have perhaps been as lovely to buy me flowers now knows I just want a cabbage. So that's good. I think Lou sorted me out on the messages. Georgie Newbury, thank you very much. Millie Proust, thank you to you. The book's called Seed to Bloom, which is out later this year.

And again, I feel I've disgraced myself, but thank you for talking to me. It's lovely to get your take on this. Millie Proust as well is a writer and floral designer. Let me just tell you about something else. You may know about it. You may have seen it on social media. Threadlifts. Have you heard of this? It's been nicknamed the lunchtime facelift. But increasingly, women who've had this have reported severe problems having had a threadlift facelift. practitioners of non-surgical cosmetic treatments. That national register is called Safe Face.

The director is Ashton Collins. Good morning. Good morning. Just what is a thread lift? So thread lifts are threads that are inserted into the skin, so typically with a needle or a cannula, and they can be inserted into any part of the face to either improve the quality of the skin texture or to give a lifting effect. Threads as in pieces of cotton? No, they are made from various substances. Some are barbed, so they are sort of collagen-stimulating thread. They're not cotton, they're sort of a man-made substance. They're inserted into the skin and some of them are barbed

to pull certain areas of the face. It sounds quite painful. And also, do they dissolve? They do dissolve. They typically last around 18 months. And, you know, women have heard about this. A lot of the women I was reading about, we've heard about it on social media

and then gone for it. But the issue has been, from your perspective, that there are unregistered and poorly trained providers of this. Is that right? Yeah, that's correct. So in the UK, anybody can actually do these treatments. So ranging from absolute lay people to plastic surgeons. There is a sort of an odd situation in terms of regulation. So if you're a doctor, nurse or a dentist, you have to be registered with the Care Quality Commission. But if you're anybody other than that,

so if you're an absolute lay person, you could set yourself up as a treatment provider, buy products over the internet and set yourself up on social media and target unsuspecting patients. Are they ever safe then? Because I've seen a photo of a woman who had a very bad experience

and she's been, you know, having tried to get her face looking, as she would put would put it better she's ended up with red blotches and and all sorts of almost lesions it looks like on her face yeah no in in the in the right hand so in the hands of experienced healthcare professionals are appropriately trained to carry these treatments out they can give wonderful results and they can be very, very safe. Unfortunately, though, if you are in the hands of somebody that is poorly trained or not trained at all and doesn't understand facial anatomy, then they more often than not can lead to horrendous complications. Have you had it? No, no, I haven't. Would you? Possibly as I get a bit older, I wouldn't rule it out. Okay. No, it's just because for me, having seen this photo of what's gone wrong, and obviously there are things that go wrong and then there are other procedures that are fine and when they're done, as you say, in the right hands.

But the way you even just described it and the fact that this has spread, I don't know if you would agree, would you agree that the popularity has happened a lot on social media? Oh, without a doubt. I mean, social media is probably the biggest catalyst of people who spark people's interest in getting these treatments, but also the biggest catalyst of why people fall into unsafe hands, because it's a hotbed for unscrupulous people advertising cheap deals and time limited offers and promoting these treatments as sort of lunchtime things. But in actual fact, they are serious medical interventions that can cause, you know, permanent disfigurement. So for you now, the campaign is to get better regulation, not to stop this treatment? No, not to stop this treatment. I mean, like, you know, we're an advocate for cosmetic treatments. They can restore confidence and make people look and feel better. But it's educating the public around how to find a safe pair of hands because they should only be carried out by trained healthcare professionals in our view. I suppose that, you know, those listening who hear it can go wrong and there are these unregulated players, maybe people think we just shouldn't be doing this in the first place.

What would you say to that? Well, again, it's, you know, these are elective procedures and it's down to personal choice. A lot of people do want these treatments. And so if you are considering them, then, you know, it's important to check a register like Safe Face or if you're considering threads, the CQC as well. It's a nice phrase, isn't it? The lunchtime facelift, but my goodness, what you can be left with if it's not in the right hands. As you say, the government has recognised the need for better licensing of cosmetic procedures, recently accepting an amendment to the Health and Care Bill, which went through Parliament. Do you think that went far enough? Well, it's very vague at the moment, actually, in terms of the scope and the plans for any particular licensing.

But if we are to base it on what current licence requirements are in the UK, actually, it doesn't go far enough because there's a very, you know, limited things that you have to demonstrate in order to get a licence. And actually, for procedures as risky as these, it would not go far enough, no. Well, it's a fascinating one to discuss and i suppose you wanted to shine a light on the the reality of when it goes wrong are you seeing that a lot and and perhaps also some have said um you know there's been a surge since the pandemic yeah undoubtedly i mean since um so in 2020 we had 72 complaints from members of the public who'd had procedures gone wrong with red lips. And then in 2021, that rose to 214.

So, you know, these big procedures are becoming increasingly popular. And things like Zoom and video calls during the pandemic sparked a huge interest in people wanting to have a wide range of cosmetic treatments. Ashton Collins, director of Safe Face. Thank you very much indeed. So many messages today. I have to say I've sparked something about flowers for sure. I thought I might. I kind of winced as I said it. But I like sharing with you a message here from Ms Varney. She says, no, I love receiving flowers. Too often we just send them for sympathy, but I buy myself a bunch most weeks. It's a small way of having some perfect beauty on the table. I love this. I'm going to use this. Anna says,

Emma, you're right. Cut flowers are just pretty housework and homework. But yes, they are. You'd love my husband, says Louise, then Emma. He brings me branches, not flowers. And another one here. I had a giggle, Emma, when you said you hate people giving you flowers. I always feel ungrateful. I love how pretty they are. Me too. Someone else's home. But the vase always gets in the way and then before you know it, two weeks later, they are still in the same place and I have to sort it out. I hope my lovely husband is not listening to this. Well, or buy them yourself

and just have them in something and then, I don't know, find a way of getting to grips with it. But seriously, we just don't have to. We just don't have to. I once smelt a smell in a vase that I was cleaning out that I will never forget. And yes, I hadn't obviously done it right, but it was one of those tin vases that someone had given me from a centre of a wedding table. And it just shouldn't have been a vase, but I'll never forget that. Many messages also, you getting in touch with regards to my discussion with Anne

Robinson as well. She opened up about her abortion, and this was in light of what's happening in America or may be happening and a lot of you very moved and some people getting in touch say I also had one I'm not ashamed it was the right decision but there is a grief involved that's what Colleen's saying here and a counsellor told me many years later it's okay to be sad. That's a very important message for your listeners abortion isn't easy or emotion free as it's made out to be it's a decision made after consideration and reflection and women who've had one have the right to grieve

without being made to feel it was wrong or that there's any shame. Colleen, thank you for that message. Back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hello, I'm Lucy Worsley and I want to tell you about Lady Killers. It's a new series from BBC Radio 4.

It's a programme that mixes true crime with history, but with a twist. With our all-female team of experts, I am re-examining the crimes of Victorian murderesses through the eyes of 21st century feminists. What can we learn from these women, and would it be any different today? Listen to Ladykillers on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.