Woman's Hour - 04/11/2025

Episode Date: November 4, 2025

Women's voices and women's lives - topical conversations to inform, challenge and inspire.

Hello, this is Neu La McGovern, and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Well, the Pulitzer Prize-winning photo journalist Lindsay Adario is with us this hour. The camera is turned this time on her for a fascinating new documentary. It's called Love and War. It's all about her extraordinary life and career. I'm looking forward to speaking to her. Also, we want to look at a survey that revealed that a third of boys, aged 11 to 15,

believe women's rights are unimportant and more than half surveyed said that they find the online world more rewarding than the real world. Well, we're going to chat about some of that thinking and the conversations that need to take place around it. Plus, what can FM 26, the latest edition of the popular football manager

computer game series, do for women's football? For the first time in his 30-year history, fans will be able to manage women's teams as well as men's. So we'll talk to one of the creators of that historic moment with that game. If you want to get in touch with the program, the number

to text is 84844 on social media where at BBC Women's Hour or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note. The number is 0300-100-400-4-4. But I do want to begin with a story that perhaps you've heard in the news bulletins this morning

and it is in relation to pornography. And pornography featuring strangulation or suffocation often called choking is due to be criminalised across the UK. Obviously, with the nature of this, it's a sensitive subject. I just want to give you warning of that in advance. Online pornography that shows choking is to be made illegal. It is part of a government plan to tackle violence against women and girls.

It follows an independent review which found depictions of choking were rife, at their words, on mainstream porn sites and had helped normalise, they say, the act among young people. Gemma Kelly was a policy consultant on that review. Claire McGlynn is a professor of law at Durham University and a leading expert on violence against women and girls and also explores gender equality. Gemma, let me begin with you.

You were part of that review last year that called for these changes. It was published in February 2025 called Creating a Safer World, the Challenge of Regulating Online Pornography. Explain to me, how you feel about these particular changes? Yes, thank you. So, Baroness Burton, who wrote that review and undertook nearly 18 months of research and took submissions from multiple charities

and other stakeholders, is very happy with the announcement that we have had today in relation to the government bringing in these amendments around strangulation in pornography. The review found that strangulation porn is having a real devastating effect offline and people, particularly young people, are partaking in strangulation and it's having some very serious consequences. So strangulation, as I'm sure Claire can speak to as well, is a very dangerous activity and pornography has normalized that, which is what the review found. So I think from Baroness Burton's point of view and the rest of her team, this is a good day. It's a first step. in lots of the things that Baroness Burton wants to do,

but certainly we would very much welcome this today. And I'll come back to what those other steps might be indeed. But why don't I get your reaction, Claire? Yeah, I think it's a landmark announcement. It could make a transformative difference to what we're actually seeing online. It's a huge step. I mean, the challenge is going to be enforcement,

but this is the first step making this announcement and making this change. And the emphasis here being just to echo what Gemma's saying, This is about the actual medical harms of strangulation. And consent, for example, does not protect you from those harms. So we're talking about consensual sexual activity, but it being really quite harmful and then normalised in porn. Well, the thing is, as we think about this,

we have two spheres online that we're talking about, pornography that people will be seeing there. And then I think as Gemma is saying, how it ends up in the real world or in relationships, be it with consent. There are already laws that are there, a standalone offence of strangulation, for example, within the real world. Why do you think what's happening in pornography is having such an effect in the real world if there are already laws in the real world to prevent it?

Does that make sense, Claire? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I think the major difference here is that most people are unaware of just how harmful strangulation can be. So there's also research been done asking young people, not just under 18s, but you know, in their 20s, where do they get their ideas from? And do they think this is a safe practice? And there's that kind of understanding that they think it's safe. So that's one of the major problems. The other thing about the existing law you've got to remember is that's about non-consensual. strangulation. So when someone is strangling someone without their consent, and for me, the issue here is around sexual practices that are including when they're consensual and just how harmful that could be. Yes, when I read into this this morning, it's a little bit muddy in the sense that the law, as you talk about it, is correct, and that it is only an offence if harm comes from it and then for example

that there could be somebody would be considered a perpetrator after that but if harm has not come from it and it is consensual then it is not an offence if people are able to follow me I know it's quite complex Gemma Claire mentions

some of the issues that there are when it comes to safety let us turn to one example from the review that will give I think most people pause. A 14-year-old boy asking a teacher how to choke safely? Yes. So Baroness Burton received multiple reports from frontline services, schools,

you know, people who are working with young people all the time. And the evidence that she was given is that very young boys, some as young even as 10, are asking how to, you know, quote unquote, choke or strangle their girlfriend during sex. and that obviously is extremely worrying. And as Claire said, you know, this is such a dangerous practice. And yet pornography has normalised it to the point that young boys are actually wondering and asking how they can do this to girls in their, you know, in their circle, which is extremely worrying.

Claire, what are the specific harms? Let's get specific. Yeah. So the mean message I would want to convey about the harms is the men. medical evidence that's just emerging over the last 18 months to two years. And this is using MRI scans and blood tests. And what it shows is that for, and it's predominantly young women, who frequently strangle four times a month or more, are suffering brain injuries similar to concussions. So it impacts on your brain processing, it impacts on your memory, it impacts on all

those sorts of tasks that you might be trying to do. And the thing about this is it's a hidden harm. So, you know, we don't know that this is happening to us particularly. So that's my major concern because it's so hidden and it's so serious. But any act of strangulation can give you a stroke. It can cause dizziness, unconsciousness, incontinence, you know, bloodshot eyes, all of that sort of impacts as well. And of course, it can cause death. And that's also because although there's this myth about safe ways to strangle, generally speaking, people, it's not. There's no safe way to strangle. I think that's got to be the key message. So, I mean, I don't expect the porn industry to put across that message. But they will need to change things, Claire. I mean, how do you

expect this to be enforced? So, yeah, absolutely. Under the Online Safety Act, it's really clear. All these platforms, and actually that includes social media like X, are going to have to remove this content. They've got to prevent us encountering it and swiftly remove it. So the law in that sense is really clear. The government's done their bit. All eyes now have to be on offcom, the regulator. It's up to offcom to enforce this legislation to make those platforms act. Gemma, do you think offcom has the power they need? I mean, this is vast. It is vast, yes. But, you know, as clear, said, it is off-com's duty to do that. That is their job as mandated by government. And I think that, you know, they have all the powers that they need. What Baroness Burton would suggest and

has suggested in the review is that perhaps an organisation like the BBFC, which is the British Board of Film classification, who classifies pornography offline, could potentially come alongside of come and help them with that. But I think what's really important, as Claire said, is that this is really implemented and enforced robustly because the porn industry, as you said, are not necessarily going to want to comply with this particular piece of legislation.

And I suppose the other part I'm thinking is how do you quantify that when you think of the amount of sites and places that this could be happening online? yes i mean it's not it's not easy i don't think anybody would say that it is but i think it can be done so what the review would be suggesting is we have somebody like the bbc who can spot check pornography sites you can go in who are used to looking at porn videos and picking out what should and shouldn't be in them who can then alert offcom to what's happening and then offcom can follow you know the steps that they have around enforcement so it is not

by any stretch of the imagination, impossible. And as we have said, offcom are mandated to do this by the government. Therefore, they will need to find a way to do it. Claire, how we talk, coming back to that 14-year-old boy who was speaking to his teacher, I mean, in some ways, at least the conversation was open, that this child felt that he could go to a teacher

and ask this question that he had. But it is a massive responsibility for teachers to have that on their shoulders. Claire? Yeah, absolutely. But, you know, we do need better sex and relationships education across all areas of section relationships. But I think it's also that we need a national campaign around the harms of this sort of practice. And we've seen this in places like Australia. They have a campaign called Breathless. And it talks about the harms and talks about this. And that would help the younger people, you know, as well as everyone into their 20s and 30s. So the law is a foundation, and it's a really significant step, but we definitely need that sort of raising awareness more generally. I want to come back to you again, Gemma,

because you talked about this being a first step, welcoming it, etc. What are the other steps? What's the next one you're looking for? So Baroness Burton has a couple of amendments put down to the crime and policing bill, so the same bill that this amendment has gone into, and they are the banning of notification apps. The banning off nudification. Apps, yes.

So the software that is used to nudify another person. We are also looking for a similar amendment around bringing incest pornography into the extreme pornography law. So there is a huge amount of content on pornography sites that depicts incest and that is extremely, it's extremely violent for one thing. and it also normalises child sexual abuse, and yet that is completely legal online. So that is something that Baroness Burton is determined to have changed in this piece of legislation. We are also looking alongside that for any videos

where adult actors dress up and imitate children and partake in sexual acts, because again, that's normalising child sexual abuse, and then also bringing parity between online and offline pornography regulation. So as I said earlier, the BBFC regulates offline pornography and they would not allow multiple pieces of content offline in the offline world on DVDs, videos, Blu-ray.

That has not happened online. So we need to bring parity between those two regimes. So today is a first step in that parity, but we need to go further. I just want to come back to you, Claire, for a moment as well. When it comes to choking, as it's described, or strangulation, is it the majority of boys choking girls? Not overwhelmingly, but predominantly. It's women and sexual minorities who tend to be the ones who are being strangled.

but it does occur both ways but the other point to make about that though is if women are choking or strangling their partner they're tending not to do it as strenuously so the risks aren't necessarily as great simply because they're not as strong. Claire McGlynn, Professor of Law Durham University, thanks for joining us and Gemma Kelly

who is a policy consultant on that review starting us off this morning on Women's Hour. 4-4-4 if you'd like to get in touch. I want to turn to the latest edition of the popular football manager video game. It features female football players and managers for the first time in its history. The game has been played by a mere 19 million people.

Its origins go back 30 years. I want to bring in Tina Keech, head of women's football research at Sports Interactive, the company behind Football Manager. Good morning. Morning. Thank you for having me. Thank you for joining us. So lots of people will be very much.

very familiar with this game. Others will not. Can you explain what it's like for the uninitiated? To put it simply, it's a video game where you are a football manager of a club. So, for example, I'm a Tottenham fan. I would take over the team and try and make them win the championship, for example. But it's as simple as that, it's a football management simulation game. And it can take over hours of your life. But you say that with a smile and obviously people love it as the figures attest to. But I did read that there were an awful lot of challenges to getting the women's teams onto this game. Why is that? I think it's just because the women's game hasn't been publicised that much. You know, I could Google a male football player and find out their wife's name, their children's name. Whereas maybe when I started four years ago,

I could get, the internet would get the height of the player wrong. And I think it's just that, you know, the women's game is now being more publicised and there's more information out there. So it's taken time to get there. But it's something that should have happened years ago. And is it because of the popularity of women's football at the moment, whether it's the Euros, etc., that heightened that,

that meant that they now are part of this game? Or were there always plans of it? No, there was always plans. I started about four years ago, but I think the Sports Interactive have been working on it for about six years. And it was, you know, Marr, was Jay Jacobson,

the show directors, always talked about it. And I think it is. It's sort of normalising women should be in video games rather than just men. And it's just normalising life, really. And so is there like full, who can you pick? Like can you pick any female football player from around the world? Because obviously some are much better known than others.

Or is it still an elite crew? Is it like Serena Vigman? She's there. But other female football managers are not? Well, Serena, the legend is obviously there. But yeah, we have 14 licensed leagues in game. we do cover a lot of other countries. So there's about 40,000 players and non-staff in the game.

And if you compare that to the men's, which has been going for about 20 years, we've managed to create this in four. We cover the whole of the global world. You just froze for one second there, Tina, but we got the message that you cover the whole of the world and the men's obviously with that longer legacy behind it. Are there any challenges when creating a video game that represents women's bodies and movement compared to men's?

Yeah, I think so. We have many discussions over how we were going to represent the women's game. There was the, okay, let's just copy and paste what we've done for the men's into the women's. But we all know, you look at men and women, we are physically completely different. We run differently, we jumped differently. So we went out and created new motion capture, which was great fun. You sort of put on these black outfits and pretend you're playing football, pretend you're celebrating to no one when it's actually just a couple of guys on their computers

and you're holding up a broomstick. So, yeah, it was about making it realistic. This game is about being fun, but also representing realism of the women's game. So there's a couple of things here. Obviously, it puts women's football and the female football managers in the spotlight. But, you know, we've done quite a bit on gaming on women's error as well. And the girls who game and the women who game. How do you expect this to land with them?

Oh, I hope it's going to touch hearts, I think. Because, you know, as females, those gamers, I was one of them back at university, like just sitting laying in bed when I should have been studying and playing video. games and you know you're going to see yourself in the game and I think it's bringing a new audience to the women's football so these gamers who have never actually watched a game might actually go and watch a game but vice versa those that are big football fans are going to be hopefully new gamers and it is increasing those numbers and just before I let you go because we did talk about the numbers that are in gaming both playing but also behind the scenes people like

you, Tina, head of women's football research at Sports Interactive. Is it mainly men that you're surrounded with? Tell me a little bit of what the landscapes like. Unfortunately, it is. But they are great supporters of the women's game and it's been a massive team effort. And as much as, you know, I'm a big advocate trying to get more women to work in tech but also work in football. And this is a great space for it. But it's all about all. also about those male well-eyes. And this wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for all those great, the people I'm surrounded by that have pushed

to make sure that this game's accurate and it is representing women in the correct manner. Tidickeach, enjoy gaming and the success of Football Manager, which I'm sure it will have. Now that women have been introduced, it will go from strength to strength. She's head of Women's Football Research at Sports Interactive that are the company behind Football Manager.

Thanks so much. Now, a little reminder for you that the next episode of The Woman's Hour Guide to Life is out now, only on BBC Sounds. And this one is all about how we can build emotional resilience in children and young people and perhaps learn a few things about ourselves as well. Here's a clip from it featuring parenting author, podcaster and mother for Lorraine Candy. Your role is not to stop a tantrum and your role is not to avoid a tantrum. You actually don't want to avoid tantrums because everything we do...

I'm sorry, I can tell you. tell by the voice that that is Dr. Becky Kennedy, it is not Lorraine Candy, who is also on the programme. Great advice from both of them, though, Dr. Becky Kennedy and Lorraine Candy. They kind of solved the dilemma of how to strengthen the emotional resilience in children. Lots of great advice like the tolerance of discomfort, about not stepping in, when to hold back and when to step forward so do listen if you can i mean even as a non-parent i learned a lot the woman's hour guide to life go to bbc sounds search for woman's hour and then in the feed you will find the guide to life episodes and you know there will be another series so if there's any

topics or issues you'd like us to cover please do get in touch in all the usual ways um i want to turn to a message we just received we're going to talk about a survey in a little bit um anonymous says a mother of two boys and two girls. I think young boys see women as already equal. Their mothers go out and work and drive and have independent lives. It's totally different now to 20 years ago. This is all in response to a number of boys

feeling that women's rights are not important. There are advertisements helping women with menstrual and menopause problems which were never mentioned before. The girls are even better at football now and shouting about it. I see through my kids that the whole thing is shifted and women's equality is not an issue to young people

but protecting the vulnerable still is. They see that. And being vulnerable themselves, likely to be attacked, mugged, they obviously prefer to escape into the online world. Okay, we're going to have a discussion about that coming up. I want to talk to an independent woman before that. When Lindsay Adario's father gave her a camera at the age of 12, he could not have imagined what that gift would ignite.

Fast forward to today. And we know the photojournalist Lindsay Adario as the woman who has brought us striking images from conflict zones, all across the world. Lindsay, with her camera, as documented our modern history. She's been in countries going through difficult and significant change and help tell those stories. In 2009, Lindsay Winthropal surprise for her work depicting the war in Afghanistan. In 2022, her photo of a Ukrainian mother and children that were killed while fleeing the violence was published on the front page of the New York Times and became a defining image of that time.

Lindsay's been kidnapped twice in Iraq and Libya and we'll speak about that and also despite the risk while Lindsay continues to return to the front lines there is a new documentary called Love and War and it follows Lindsay's extraordinary career and what it's like returning home at the end of an assignment to domestic life with her partner Paul de Bendern and their two children Lindsay welcome to Women's Hour Thank you so much for having me I have to say I found the documentary fascinating I was gripped as I watched it last night

And I was thinking, you know, you document people's lives for a living. Did it feel strange to let the cameras zoom in on you and your home and you become the subject? Well, I obviously knew what I was getting into, right? As you said, I do this for a living. And it's been 25 years that I go and I ask people to open up their most intimate moments. So when Chai and Jimmy came to me and asked me to be the subject of this documentary, I knew. I mean, I knew that I would have to open my life and also be vulnerable and be honest. And even though a lot of the topics that are depicted in the documentary, don't put me in the best light, I think it's important for people to see that this is not an easy life and what goes into journalism.

Don't put you in the best light. Why do you say that? Well, I think you see the impact of my work as a frontline photographer on my children, on my husband. on my parents. There's sort of a section where I get kidnapped in Libya and they talk to my family about the fallout of that. And it's very hard for me to see. You know, there are things that I move through life doing this word very determined

because I think I can make a difference. And it takes a toll on my loved ones. You know, there was a phrase that was used by a U.S. military man, to describe you, he said you're as hard as woodpecker lips. What do you think of that description? I mean, I think it's the greatest description. It's very funny. I don't think I've ever heard that before.

That was Captain Dan Kearney. And we were embedded with him in the Coringal Valley for two months and literally living on the side of a mountain with the 173rd airborne at that time, one of the most dangerous places in Afghanistan. And it was tough. And I think that description, for me, it's sort of an honor because to be a woman in these areas where traditionally the Pentagon in the U.S. has not allowed women on the front line. And we were very lucky that the military

trusted us to go there. And indeed, we were ambushed, shot at, at one point had to jump out of Blackhawks into the middle of Taliban territory and walk for a week with everything we needed to survive on our backs, including my cameras and protective gear. And, you know, to come out of that was not only, it was a terrifying experience, we were ambushed in the end, but it also was a privilege. I mean, it was a privilege for me to really feel like finally I was at the heart of war, you know, with no censorship. Just here we are in the middle of nowhere with the troops face-to-face with, like, what they call the enemy. and you're mentally resilient as we see within that but also incredibly fit

and I think that's perhaps something that people perhaps don't think about it's kind of a part-time job you've got going on there to stay at that physical level so that you can do that job we always think I think about the emotional load that it takes but not always the physical yeah absolutely I mean a huge part of my life

is just staying strong and staying fit. And obviously, as I get older, it takes more time. I'm 51. I'll be 52 next week. And I spend probably an hour and a half to two hours a day, seven days a week, just exercising. And that it's not only for my physical strength, but it's also for my mental health. I mean, for me, it is something that helps, like, ground me and start my day on a positive note and with energy. And, but, you know, I think when you look at the, the people who traditionally do this job, I'm surrounded by a lot of men in their 20s who are incredibly strong. And I certainly can't go on a military embed and say, hey, can you help carry my gear? You know, because it just doesn't work. I mean, I have to be self-sufficient and I have

to be able to grab all my stuff and run if I need to. And that's just a reality of this work. I'd be struck by a number of things that you said. I want to pick up on some of them. This is related to it, where one of your colleagues in the documentary describes being a woman as your superpower. Do you agree with that? I mean, it is what it is. I think that I have chosen to use it to my advantage. I think that I could have sort of sat around and said, you know, I get discriminated against. There are so many men and they often send men on assignment.

But for me, I chose not to fixate on my gender and to just do as much as I can. and to take advantage of the areas of access, like in Afghanistan, for example, where men and women are segregated by gender, I focus on women's stories. And I focus, you know, I can photograph the men, but I can also get into private homes. And that's something that my male colleagues can't do.

There's a very shocking scene where women were setting fire to themselves, and I will be graphic here, trying to kill themselves, but that they didn't succeed. And so these women who were alive, but charred, beyond recognition, were brought in, and you were there to witness that.

And I think it did, for me, seeing a woman photograph these other women, give another dimension. Yeah, I mean, I started working in Afghanistan 25 years ago when it was under the Taliban, and I've gone back pretty much every year until 2023. And the patterns are heartbreaking. I mean, there is an extraordinary amount of abuse against women, physical abuse, psychological abuse. And often there is no way out for these women.

They don't have access to guns. Traditionally, they're, like, they've seen self-immolation when you set yourself on fire as other women do it. And that's what they turn to to get out of this very abusive life. And it's heartbreaking because when they don't survive, they get ostracized from their family, even distant family. They have nowhere to go and they're disfigured. And it's just, it's horrific. I mean, it's one of the things to me that has been so devastating in covering Afghanistan. And I want to come back to where it's at at the moment as well. But, you know, if I mention you or other women, perhaps, or men, who are covering conflict, people go, oh, you know, they're addicted to the adrenaline, but I was, I know you've rolled your eyes,

I need to let the radio listeners know that, but I was struck by, it was Dexter Filkins, your colleague, who said, no, it's not that, it's addicted, and you can tell me your version, to the largeness of what is happening. Later on, you do talk about contributing to history, for example, that you're trying something and then you're dabbling in it and then it becomes a mission, then it becomes your life, then it becomes your responsibility. Talk me through the process as you see it, because I'm sure you think about it many times as you risk your life. Yeah, I think when I was younger, maybe there was some adrenaline involved in the sense that when I first started covering Afghanistan and Iraq and the fall of the Taliban and, sort of the chaos that ensued in Iraq after the invasion. For me, it was really incredible to just

think that my photographs were part of stories in the New York Times, that were informing the public, that were informing policy, documenting what sort of the fruits or the repercussions of American foreign policy overseas. And that was incredible to me, that that was even possible that I can have that platform. You know, it sounds. really rudimentary, but actually it is a real privilege to be able to do that. And so that was sort of driving me in the beginning. But then the more I did it, the more I did feel a responsibility, and the more I did feel like, okay, I need to use this platform to really show what's going on in the world and to show, you know, as an American, for me, it is important to show what sort of

how the world reacts and ripples in the wake of American foreign policy. And so, I do, you know, I've been covering war now for 25 years. So recently I've been covering Ukraine. We don't have access to Gaza, as you know. No international media is allowed in. And I've also been going back to Syria. And so I think it is important for me. And it becomes the largeness I think Dexter is talking about is really the responsibility and the impact.

And it is something greater than us. I think when you're a journalist, you're part of a community. that really feels that we really feel this sort of calling. We feel like we have to go back. It's so interesting because I feel you tap into the grey instead of it being black and white, particularly you talk about your family. I mean, I laughed when you said this,

but I suppose it comes from the heart, perhaps at a moment of frustration, that I suck as a journalist, which obviously isn't true, and I suck as a parent, which obviously isn't true either. but I think it just summed up in those eight words some of the feelings you know many people talk about

when they have children as legacy you know that that is kind of a direct way to have legacy but you talk about being at home and I use that word that you used to when you are working that you are most present and I mean

you can obviously have legacy with your children but perhaps the legacy is also through work. I don't know. Does one supersede the other? I don't think one supersedes the other. I think that I sort of straddle these two worlds, and I think that I've accepted that. I think most women who are parents live,

they feel like they're not allowed to express that if they feel an equal passion for their work. That's what I think is brave thing to do. Yeah. I mean, I think society tells us, like, how dare you care about something as much as your children. And, and, you know, luckily, I was raised by these incredible parents who loved me and my sister so much, but empowered us to be able to maybe think outside of the box of what motherhood and parenting and just life has to be. And it's okay to have this passion. And it's okay to set up a different family dynamic where my husband is at home, the primary caregiver with my kids. And he's an incredible parent. And I come in and out and I am fully present when I'm home and I'm baking banana bread and I'm going to school and I'm trying to make it to the music concerts. But I'm not the sort of 24-7 mother. And I will be criticized for that. I'm sure. But we're okay with that. And this is our family. Yeah, there's a great

moment in the documentary. You're rushing to get back home from work to attend your child's music concert. except for you're trying to get out of Ukraine to Poland, back to London. I mean, it's quite jarring, but it does sum up what you're up against and what you're trying to achieve. But, you know, people would imagine that, you know, your door is constantly being banged down asking you to go and work here and there. But you seem to be up against some of the same things, even after having a baby, slipping in the roster on who they would call

or an editor not wanting you or not letting you go to Mosul because you are a mother? I mean, that was sort of a very difficult thing to expose and to talk about publicly because I had fought my entire career to not fixate on my gender and to just move forward. And I was able very luckily because it's a competitive job to get consistent work with the New York Times and National Geographic. and there was this moment where I was sort of being sidelined over and over and I wasn't getting the assignments that I had traditionally gotten. And as a freelancer, I can't just sort of raise my hand and go. I have to get an assignment. And that's something that does not change over time. And he just articulated, like, I'm not sending you to war because you're a mother. And I sort of paused

and was stunned, actually, because that's obviously not a decision for him. It's a decision for me and my family, but it was being made for me. And so there was nothing I could really do. I mean, I had to sort of figure out, okay, who else would send me to Mosul or on assignment? And unfortunately, there are not that many publications in the world that send people to war anymore. I know you're in a male-dominated world, but many. of those men will be parents. And I'm just wondering, have they ever come up against any of the questions that you have, do you think? I mean, I would be hard pressed to think of examples.

I think that, you know, I have been with men on the front line in Iraq. You know, when I was kidnapped in Libya, all of the men I was with had newborns at home. And we were being held hostage. And I think, you know, no one said to them, like, what are you doing in Libya and how dare you go out there? Yet for me, it is the question I get all the time. It's like, how can you do this, your mother, how can you risk your life? I mean, it's curious to me how it doesn't matter if a father is killed, but it does matter matter for mothers. Yeah, yeah. I found it very thought provoking while watching it. You mentioned Afghanistan, of course, which you have covered extensively, and you talk about,

you know, what are the stories that I am willing to risk my life for, right? You're very thoughtful about what assignments you may or may not take, etc. But I wonder, but you're making a difference and you see progress that's happening. When you see a country like Afghanistan regressing in the way that we've briefly alluded to, I wonder, does that give you pause on the work that you've done? Of course. I mean, I think Afghanistan, for me, my sort of world came crumbling down, not only for the women of Afghanistan and for all of the Afghans who had spent 20 years building up and enjoying their education, freedom, democracy, or a semblance of democracy. I think it was really to watch all of that be taken away was really heartbreaking. Because, yes, one of the reasons I do this job is to document sort of changes as they take place, not only for a historical record, but to show the world.

Like, this is what happens when you allow women freedom. They become members of parliament. They become lawyers, journalists, you know. And then suddenly overnight it was taken away. The Taliban, this iteration of the Taliban made all sorts of promises that they would allow women their rights. And now we're at a point where obviously we see everything has been stripped away. Women can essentially barely leave their homes. They have no part in public life.

And it's really heartbreaking. I mean, that was one of the reasons why I hesitated to even go back after the Taliban came back. Because it's like, what is my role there if everything I've been doing there for 20 years has no meaning anymore? Lindsay Adario, thank you so much for spending some time with us. Her documentary Love and War is on Disney Plus from the 7th of November, as I mentioned, it's a really compelling watch. Thanks so much for spending some time with us. Thanks for having me.

Now, it's the sad news that the actor Diane Ladd has died at the age of 89. Ladd's career on stage and screen spanned decades. Her big break in film came as a waitress in Martin Scorsese's. Alice doesn't live here anymore in 1974. It earned her an Oscar nomination, the first of three. She had a very close relationship with her daughter, the actor Laura Duren, who broke the news

of her death. The pair had shared the screen on many times when Dern starred in David Lynch's Wild at Heart and later in the HBO series Enlightened. Lad played her mother both of those times. There were also the first mother-daughter pair to be nominated for an Academy Award for the same movie. That was Rambling Rose.

I was lucky enough to speak to both of them in 2023 about the book that they wrote together, Honey, Baby, Mine. Parents don't always tell their children the truth. Be honest here, we lie. We lie because we want respect and love from our children. And then the children want the same thing for us, so they lie. So then when the parent dies, you've heard so many people say,

oh, I wish I'd have asked my mother that. Or I wish I'd ask my father. So what this book is about, stop just whooshing and make it so. I said to Laura, one person really talks to somebody. They're not talking to a loved one or a friend. We will have done something good on this planet. And Laura recorded this so she'd have it for austerity sake. And then her agent said, this is a book.

And we said, it's not a book. And she went to five publishers who fought for the right to publish it. And then we spent a year and a half editing all our walks. We'd written 420 pages. Oh, my goodness. And it was a lot of work. right laura we truly only shared it because and i appreciate you saying you know that it that it has that feeling like you're cracking open a a scrapbook of a family's life because we we wanted to be

any mother daughter father son sister brother who finds themselves in a position to be able to ask life's questions because we don't do it enough and we saw how it was It was creating bonds we never had. And it's not just because we talked about the hard stuff that was, in fact, healing. It's because we laughed harder than we've ever laughed together over just these fights. We told each other the truth because we thought I was dying. I'm going, hey. So we spill the beans.

So everybody should spill the beans. The mother-daughter relationship, of course, is a thread that goes throughout the book. But it's also, you're an actor. Both of you are actors. You have had so many similar experiences, I think. What was one of what I was reading? Like parenting is a mess or the torture of being away from your kids. And I think a somewhat different attitude maybe came across to me from both of you.

Is that fair, Laura? Yeah. What was great was I even discovered things that I'm doing as a parent that I was completely unconscious of based on my mom's responses, you know, when I finally admitted to my mom how much it hurt when she would leave for work, I'm an actor. I know that that's a sacrifice that happens with working moms that, you know, have to leave their kids when they're traveling, but yet I still know as a daughter what that felt like. And the minute I shared it, mom had to protect. and defend not only her point of view, but mine by saying, oh, no, no, good for you because

you had ballet and you did this and you went a horsebacker. And I realized in that moment that that's what I'd been doing with my children. When they would start to bring up their fear of me leaving town for extended time, I would kind of justify instead of really listening to the hurt that I well know. And so my mom and I not only healed a fracture for a shared experience, we both are parenting and grandparenting differently because of it. What about that, Diane? I'm just thinking how, you know, you can't be a good actor if you can't listen. Laura's godmother was the actress Shelley Winners. And the one thing she always came down on was to tell young actors, you have to listen. But it's true for every human being. you have to listen not just with the ear but with the ear of your heart to really listen and we aren't

talking to each other in this world right now and i think laura and i were forced to do that even about things that we didn't agree and there's another lesson you don't because you don't agree with somebody that's okay you don't have to fight because of it have a different opinion you might learn something step back and let it go with god just listen it's okay to not agree. Laura and I have a couple things that we don't talk about because we don't agree. And so we

both listen to each other and that was what was so great. Diane Ladd, who has died at the age of 89 with lots of advice there, I think even feeding into some of the other conversations we've been having this morning on Women's Hour. She was with her daughter, Laura Dern.

If you want to listen to the full interview, I very much enjoyed speaking to them. It's May 1st, 2023. that woman's hour episode, you will find it. Lots of people getting in touch in relation to our first item. This is a response to the news that pornography showing strangulation will be banned. This person says, I'm a retired pathologist who used to work for the coroner. I'd like to confirm that sexual asphyxiation kills.

I saw two completely avoidable deaths. Another says, you said, talking about me, that we couldn't expect the porn industry to issue warnings that strangulation kills. I disagree. We force the tobacco industry to print in large print that smoking kills. Why not force the online porn industry

to insert a large banner stating the strangulation kills? Let's never say we cannot expect. We must expect. Fair point. 8444 if you'd like to get in touch. Now, here is a finding. A third of boys

think women's rights are unimportant. It's from a study of boys in 37 secondary schools across the UK. It comes from the consultancy group. male allies UK that also found a third of the boys said they were considering the idea of an AI friend, artificial intelligence friend, and also that more than half of the teenage boys surveyed said they found the online world more rewarding than the real world. Are all these findings related? And how should parents approach discussing these issues? Well, we've Lee Chambers,

the founder and chief executive of male allies UK with me in studio. Good morning. Good morning. Pleasure to be with you. And also we have Professor Jessica Ringrose, who is a feminist, a sociologist. Good morning to you, Professor. Good morning. Thanks for having me on. So just over 1,000 boys surveyed. As I mentioned, they're between 11 and 15. I've got that rightly. That's correct.

Some of those threads I mentioned, do you think they're related? So there's definite connection between the threads around what boys are consuming, where the sources of education come from different areas, how they feel about the lack of physical spaces and how that is driving them into online spaces, the lack of sometimes emotionally available adults in their own lives or lack of places to attach to, which makes them search for a place to be long, a place to be understood and a place to be listened to.

And then how that then plays a role in how they turn up in the real world and how they also consume online content where they go to learn about topics, again, such as sex, their own perspectives around masculinity and femininity. And what we found from a lot of the boys is they are active, searching for understanding at that age while they're going through adolescence and they are getting a lot of mixed messages that then create confusion that then relate back to some of these statistics that we found in our research. So for example, why do you think that one in three

boys that you survey think women's rights aren't important? How do you think that intersects with AI? So we dug a little bit deeper into why they felt that way after providing them insight around women's bodily autonomy, right to property, right to vote, right to state, stand to give them a bit of concepts. I think some boys didn't really understand the history, the fight that had gone for those rights and how quickly they could be potentially reverted. They didn't really have a lot of context around their own lived experience, around some of the barriers that women and girls face. And obviously, some of the content they had consumed had given them ideas that actually feminism had gone either too far or would sort itself out

without their engagement. And therefore, they started to link this back to actually, if women's rights are here, then actually how important are they to us? And there is some manufactured outrage that young boys face in terms of online messaging that actually tells them that feminism is against boys or is taking away from their opportunity and some of the social indicators for boys that aren't looking particularly healthy. There's a direct blame and correlation that's being put by certain online influences to shape their perspectives on the world. I'd be curious for your thoughts on this, Professor, because we're also seeing that they're thinking about for therapy, for companions, for girlfriends, for friends, that AI, some of them think may be the answer.

Yeah, I found the most shocking statistic from this report about one-third of boys sort of seeking companionship from AI. And we are seeing a huge rise of AI companionship amongst adults. And it is important to note that we have barely any research on young people. engagement with sort of chat bots and AI therapy and grief bots and companions. But I do feel like this is sort of an extension of boys' online relationship with their screens. I mean, if you think about an AI girlfriend is kind of like an extension almost of like a video game. But the dangers of this is that they're interacting with this like, you know, AI, which isn't actually conscious intelligence. It's just sort of mirroring back to them.

what they might want to hear. And AI is geared towards keeping the user engaged. That's how it actually makes a profit. And so I find it quite shocking and dangerous. The chatbot site, character.aI, which is very big in the States, it's cutting off teenagers from having conversations with virtual characters. It's had intense criticism over the kinds of interactions that young people were having with online companions.

It's powered by AI, by artificial intelligence, been lots of lawsuits in the US from parents, including one over the death of a teenager with some branding it a clear and present danger to young people. So character AI from the end of this month says under 18s will only be able to generate content such as videos with their characters rather than talk to them as they currently can.

Is that the solution, Professor? Well, I think that that is just one instance. and you have to understand AI is incorporated into so many different apps. So take, for example, Snapchat. It has AI, My AI, integrated right into the application. So young people are using AI as an interface for their entire life. I mean, chat GPT, I was doing some research in the summer, and it's amongst the top five apps that are being used by young people then,

and it's increasing rapidly. So I feel like that age, verification issue is not really going to solve this and we need a lot better discussion and education about this. So discussion is where you come to. I was watching a clip this morning. It was shared by Lorraine Candy. It was off Dr. Lisa Damour and she said if mothers or women are approaching their boys about emotions and feelings and trying to talk to them, that in a way it can reinforce that that emotions are a girl thing, you know, a female thing. and kind of reinforcing those gender stereotypes of masculinity and femininity

that basically you need the guys to come in and talk to them about it. Lee, your thoughts? Yeah, so obviously our organisation is focused on men engaging in inclusion, working on their own gender stereotypes, closing gender gaps, and understanding the skills of allyship. So our bigger call to action is for men to be involved in these conversations. So what should dads be saying to their boys, or the carer that is a male influence in their lives?

Well, I think first of all, it actually comes to creating that space to listen to them. What's the best place to do that? Well, I mean, it can be through a variety of different vehicles, whether it's a shared activity, whether it is just the openness to have a conversation, curiosity in our children's lives. And if I think about why the children have said that AI is interesting, well, firstly, it's hyper-personalizable.

That's a real challenge. There's also the aspects of it's always there, always validates, doesn't fall into conflict, doesn't really ever tell me off or doesn't listen. But, you know, most adults can't be that thing. No, and I think that it's just creating that bit of space, because that bit of space actually makes a real difference. And when we obviously sport to these thousand boys, what they said is a little bit more emotionally variability from the adults in the lives

would actually make real life a better place for them. And do you think whether that adult is a man or a woman makes a difference? I do think especially for boys, they've said localised role models in their own lives and that can be men, not just fathers but uncles, family friends, butchers, sports teachers, cadet coaches, just men who are just there for them and give them that bit of space to help them explore who they are

especially given boys saying that there are so few physical spaces for them to do that in comparison to what they were five years ago. You know, we hear that, when we hear masculinity, often there's that word toxic in front of it, which I know is very contentious. Do we need a new language, Jessica? Well, I feel that it's a little bit essentializing to say that only men can empower other men and boys because we do know that men and boys often do to women and girls for support companionship. That's why they're turning to AI girlfriends because they're more compliant.

So I just wanted to de-essentialize that a little bit and just say this needs to be a wider conversation between families, between all members of families. Like, why are boys feeling disenfranchised? Why are they suffering mental health problems around the burdens of masculinity and the types of, like, roles they're being asked to take on? Yes, we need a new conversation amongst the whole of society. Well, we've started here. And of course, boys have mothers, granny, sisters, friends, aunties as well.

So I'd be really curious to drill down maybe a little later on how they think about women's rights in pertaining to those nearest and dearest to them. And speaking of women's rights, the feminist, the literary icon, Margaret Atwood, talks to me about her new memoir book of lives. That interview coming up tomorrow, she calls herself inherently frivolous.

I call her inherently interesting. You won't want to miss it. Same time, right here, 10 a.m. Woman's Hour. See you then. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Our culture can cancel someone in the blink of an eye.

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