Woman's Hour - 05/03/2025

Episode Date: March 5, 2025

Women's voices and women's lives - topical conversations to inform, challenge and inspire.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petruzzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme. Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks it will take to feel truly alive.

If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. BBC Sounds, music, radio podcasts. Hello, I'm Nuala McGovern and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Well, coming up the extraordinary stories of autistic women who have been locked up in mental health hospitals who are not mentally ill. We'll hear what needs to change from those who have been affected.

Also today, a performance by Niamh Ella, who has been called Gen Z's real and relatable indie queen. I am looking forward to meeting her and also hearing her play. Plus, Ruth Ellis, she was the last woman to be executed in Britain back in 1955. There is a new TV drama that shines a light on what some see as a potential miscarriage of justice. We have Ruth's granddaughter Laura with us this hour and also the actor Lucy Boynton who plays the complex and resilient character of Ruth who became a catalyst for change to the death penalty.

And I'm wondering about your thoughts about mirrors this morning. And that's because I read a story about a school that has removed all mirrors from its toilets because they say pupils are spending too much time looking in those mirrors and spending too much time in its toilets because of it. Grant Edgar, he's the head teacher of the William Farr Comprehensive School that's in Welton near Lincoln. He said mirrors can encourage students to spend too much time in the toilets, often in large groups. If students require a mirror for a medical purpose, they can ask for one at reception. So I'd like your thoughts on that. Would that be a good move for your kids? 84844. There has been mixed reaction to the idea that I've seen so far. Shane Watson writing in The Times Today said, I think tongue in cheek,

mirror awareness should be part of the syllabus because they can make all the difference. Well, that is true. Shane lists how unforgiving mirrors can be. Many of us are aware, not least the late American writer Nora Efron. Here's a snippet from her book, which I I loved called I Feel Bad About My Neck. And it's laugh out loud funny if you have not read it but here's a bit. There's another thing about being a certain age that I've noticed. I try as much as possible not to look in the mirror. If I pass a mirror I avert my eyes. If I must look into it I begin by squinting so that if anything really

bad is looking back at me, I'm already halfway to closing my eyes to ward off the sight. So this morning, your or your children's relationship to mirrors, particularly in this social media age where a screen or a camera is never too far away. To get in touch to text 84844 on social media we're at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note, send us a video, 03700100444. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on all of that. But let us begin this morning with some medical progress a new swab test which could mean women avoid having

invasive tests used to detect womb cancer. Now about 800,000 women per year go to see a GP because they're suffering from abnormal bleeding from their uterus and then undergo sometimes painful procedures to understand the cause. Well instead this new swab known as WID-EZ has been found to be as accurate as an ultrasound scan in detecting the disease cutting potentially the number of false positives by 87%. It has been registered now the swab before with the regulator for approval and it could lead to have been adopted by the NHS so we wanted to hear more about it so we're joined by

the test developer, Martin Wichwenter, a professor in women's cancer at University College London, and also joined by Athena Lamnissos, chief executive of the gynecological cancer charity Eve's Appeal, who funded the research behind the test. Good to have both of you with us this morning. Martin, this was your invention.

Tell us a little bit about it and what it does for the lay person who has no knowledge in this area. Many thanks for having us with you today. It was in fact a big team effort. It wasn't just me, it was a big team effort together with the EAP, the European Union. So what the test does is in fact about 300,000 women in the UK will experience vaginal bleeding after the menopause and about 10,000 of these women will be diagnosed with womb cancer. And currently all these women have to undergo a test which is ultrasound and based on ultrasound, you will then identify those women

who need invasive procedures, which are about 52%. And current evidence from the US shows that about 26% of endometrial cancers will miss, although a lot of women have to go and have to undergo these painful procedures. What we have developed at the University College London, together with the EFA Bill, is a test which requires a simple swab

to be taken off the vagina, and the sample is analyzed using a PCR technology, which is relatively low cost and routinely used, for example, in the detection of the COVID-19 test. The test looks at tags on the top of the DNA or its DNA methylation which typically occurs when a cancer is present. So little swab and the line is just glitching a tiny bit so forgive me for just repeating some of what you've been saying. But basically it's swab. Some of the same methods used within the Covid test, for example,

which we've all become so familiar with. But it shows DNA and differences in it that could then let you know that womb cancer is there. It detects it in a way. Let me bring you in, Athena here. Martin referred there to some of the tests that women have to currently go through. Could you elaborate on that and what difference this swab might make? Yes, good morning. So we're always looking for tests that can be kinder, less

invasive and more acceptable to women. We know how difficult gynecological tests can be for some people. So, you know, a transvaginal ultrasound, I mean, when you hear that you're going to have an ultrasound, you probably have a picture in your head of something sweeping over your tummy, a bit like when you are having a baby. A transvaginal ultrasound is a wand that goes inside your vagina. It can be a real surprise to people and for many it's a very acceptable thing and not painful or uncomfortable or embarrassing at all. For others you know it's more difficult and is certainly more invasive than a swab test. And then the next step would be a hysteroscopy, which for many can be painful.

And anything that we can do that cuts down on invasive testing that is as sensitive, more acceptable, kinder for patients is what we're looking for. And the hysteroscopy at the moment is surgery? The hysteroscopy is done in outpatient hands, so it's done in the primary care settings or in hospital, but it's basically taking a biopsy of the wound. So you know it's a nick and which for some is more painful at all, for others they find very very uncomfortable. So with this swab instead, Martin mentioned that it can be used within the vagina

and then able to detect pretty much from that whether somebody has womb cancer or not. It seems like an incredible leap. Yeah, I mean, you know, anything that saves pain and discomfort, anything that's as effective or more effective, and anything that saves money and health services is a really good thing, right? So it's a really positive step forward and something that we're very, very excited about the potential for. And Martin gave you some of those numbers. You know, there's about 300,000 women who

are referred for abnormal bleeding postmenopause, that's very important, postmenopause, who need to be investigated and have cancer rolled out. The number who will be diagnosed with cancer is about 10,000, which is still a big number, but you can see that we're looking for small cancer needles in a big haystack of women with abnormal bleeding. Just before I move back to Martin, Athena, what should women do now if they have any concerns about bleeding? They must present to their GPs and keep a record of their bleeding, keep a record of how long it's been going on, what the changes have been, and there

are lots of reasons for it. We don't want everyone to panic and think it's cancer. What we do want is to have cancer ruled out as quickly and painlessly as possible. Martin, back to you. How long has it taken to get to this point? I mentioned that it's with the regulator at the moment. When did you start on this? How long has the process been? Well, we've started to work on epigenetics and DNA methylation. So these are the changes that we are detecting on the swab back in 1997, so almost 30 years ago. And then from 2015 onwards, together with the EFAPEEL and the European Union and the big team, we started really to focus on developing this test, which took us 10 years to do and go through all the studies and the regulatory approval. And now we are almost there.

Almost there, because the last I read, it's with approval and it could lead to being adopted by the NHS but how long do you expect that to be or are there any more hurdles that it needs to go through? So the test is currently launched to private clinics across the UK and projects are ongoing to evaluate the test in the NHS setting. Right, Athena do you have a timeline on that do you think? Well these you know you can see that research has a long tail but research and prevention really does pay dividends, it pays dividends for patients for the gynaecological cancer diagnosis and it pays dividends for saving money and health services. But it has a long tail to it, as we can see.

It takes time. Lots of projects are underway. We know that the NHS will look closely at this, and we're very, very hopeful that with the focus on prevention, that's in the NHS 10-year plan, remember, that's one of the pillars. They want to focus on a shift to prevention as

opposed to cure which makes a hell of a lot of sense you know we basically have an NHS service which is really a national treatment service rather than a health service which is looking at prevention, diagnosing earlier, keeping people well so we're very very hopeful about that and are looking at it closely. The test has been shown to be more accurate than ultrasounds in diagnosing womb cancer in black women. Why is that, Athena? Well there are lots of reasons why you might have a thickened womb and which will make the ultrasound less sensitive. And what we know is that in different demographics, different

communities, you know, we know that there's a higher number of fibroids, for example, that we see in black women. And so therefore, having a test that isn't dependent on wound fitness, you know, is dependent on the DNA methylation method is much more effective and specific. And back to you Martin before I let you both go. You've been working on this for 30 years. It must feel like quite an achievement to get to this point. In fact it is, yes. It was all a massive effort to do the clinical work and also the research work and to engage with the community to get funders excited about this and now we are developing these tests. The first of it is for womb cancer we are also developing tests for cervical cancer

but also for predicting poor prognostic breast cancer. And those are the sort of things which we feel is extremely important. As Athena alluded to, we need to really focus on prevention, predicting who is developing a cancer, then do something that inhibits the development of the cancer and early cancer. So this is something which really has to shift the focus from the treatment to the prevention and this is what the IFA Bela has allowed us to do in the past 15 years and we are ever so grateful and I think we are now sort of harvesting the fruits of it. That is Martin Wichwenter, a professor in women's cancer at University College London.

The test we've been talking about is the WID or the WID-EZ, yes that's the beginning of his name on it. And Athena Lamnissos, chief executive of the Gynaecological Cancer Charity, Eve Appeal, who funded the research behind that test. Thank you both so much. I was asking you know for your thoughts on mirrors this morning and many of you are getting in touch already. Here's a couple that are coming in. Schools should be focusing on the quality of teaching. Mirrors in toilets or not, pupils will always find ways of avoiding lessons

or teachers they despise, focus on the quality of learning provision and teacher relationships and pupils will ensure that they are there in the class. Mirrors are not because one school has got rid of the mirrors out of the bathrooms. Here's Cathy in Surrey. I recently saw a post on Instagram about how the human face was never designed or intended to be seen by ourselves. Evolutionary, we were never supposed to see our own reflection. Our faces evolved for communication with our peers

and for safety and awareness of our surroundings. It made me think very differently about my own reflection and why I, we feel the need to look in mirrors. 84844, if you would like to get in touch. Next, we're going to discuss the extraordinary story of how and why an autistic woman was locked up in a mental health hospital for 45 years. For 25 of those years she was kept away from other patients and held what is called long term segregation. Kaseeba is the woman, the name we are giving her in question. She also has a learning disability and is non-verbal.

She's finally now living in her own home with a dedicated team of support workers. Her story features in the latest file on four investigates. There are hundreds of others like her detained inappropriately. And the program has brought reaction from mothers fighting for the release. In this excerpt that I will play, reporter Carolyn Atkinson, who's with us in a moment, goes to meet Kaseba and her support workers in her new home. You want to say hello to the visitors? Yes, so when she crosses her hands that means that she's okay.

Ah, so she's crossing her hands. She's happy to meet us. Kaseba, thanks so much for letting us visit. It's lovely to see you. Do you want a cup of tea? I'm going to give her some biscuits. Which one do you want? We need to show her whatever she wants and she chooses by herself. We don't just give it to her.

That is a little clip there from the file on four investigates. In a moment, I'm going to be speaking to a woman, Alexis Quinn, who is herself autistic and escaped from a mental health hospital after being held there for three years. She is campaigning to get hundreds of other autistic people and those with learning disabilities out of such situations. But first let's talk to reporter Carolyn Atkinson who uncovered Kaseeba's story. We were hearing the clip there from the file on four. Carolyn, tell us about Kaseeba, also not her real name, and how she ended

up in hospital in the first place. Well her early childhood is actually pretty sketchy. We know she was originally from Sierra Leone and she was probably trafficked into the UK before she was even five. Then there was a spell in a children's home but that broke down and so at the age of seven she was sent to a long-stay hospital and that's where she lived at first on a locked shared ward Now when she was in her late teens and early 20s She was sectioned under the Mental Health Act and that's when she was moved into what's called long-term Segregation an annex where she was on her own with a living space and a small garden

Now she was completely on her own there for 25 years, for up to 23 hours a day. The figures are astounding when you put them in, in that stark relief Carolyn. But how was Kaseeba eventually freed from the hospital? Well it's actually an incredible story. So back in 2011 after the BBC Panorama programme uncovered criminal abuse of people with learning disabilities at the Winterbourne View Hospital near Bristol. The government started to review autistic people and those with a learning disability to see who was actually being inappropriately detained. And that's when a rookie clinical

psychologist called Dr Patsy State was sent to see Kaseeba. And when she met her, she felt that the narrative around her didn't make any sense. Hearing the kind of wariness with which staff spoke about her, and it was things like, she's an eye gouge, she's dangerous, you have to be really careful. There was such a focus on staff keeping themselves safe in relation to her. And it just didn't ring true that a person with learning disabilities in their 40s who had lived in this place for 40 years could be that dangerous.

So Patsy started investigating. She was curious. She went through years of medical notes and she found that the eye gouging label had arisen from a cut that Casiba gave to another patient when she was frightened when a fire alarm went off in the ward that was being evacuated. Now, Patsy ended up writing a 50-page report, and that concluded that Kaseba wasn't dangerous

and she shouldn't be in hospital. So a 10-strong team led by a social worker and other health and care professionals were set up by Camden Council to get her out. Now, it took six years, but in but in 2022 Casiba did finally move into her own home and she has 24-7 care and she is now flourishing. You know again talking about the figures though that kind of gives an idea of how much effort it took Carolyn to get this one woman out of that particular situation. What do the hospital trusts say about Kaseeba's story? Well in order

to protect Kaseeba's identity we can't actually name the NHS Trust which was responsible for her but we spoke to them and it told us that the care it delivered had never been brought into question and that anyone needing long term segregation was given their own living space and their own garden. Now the Trust also said it had tried to start discharging residents from 2010 but it was prevented from doing so by a legal challenge from the families of other patients and it said subsequently its staff had worked tirelessly to help local authorities provide the necessary support for residents so that they could live in the

community. Now we know as we mentioned at the top, there are many other autistic people, some also with a learning disability or may have a learning disability that were inappropriately detained. And there are mothers fighting to try and get those children, whether they're minors or grown adults, home. Absolutely. And the thing is, a lot of these people do have families battling for them, because Siba didn't have anyone at all. I spoke to one mum we're calling Beth. Her 17-year-old daughter Amelia, which is not her real name, is autistic. She went from being a school prefect on a Friday to being an inpatient by the Monday. She stopped eating

and for the past few years she's been in long-term segregation. Now Amelia wanted to let people know what it's like and so she wrote this letter for us which is read here by her mum. You forget the world and the world forgets you. Reality becomes even more distorted and you forget how to have conversations and what the world is. Loneliness cripples you but you don't think you deserve people and you know that the real world doesn't want people like you. You rot alone and the world moves on but you stay the terrified teenager who was first put into long-term segregation but you will never be the same again. who was first put into long-term segregation, but you will never be the same again. The horrors you see and the experience don't just isolate you physically, but separate

you from humanity in a way you'll never get back. You are so desperate for conversation that you chat to AI and you pretend that they are your friend, but you don't have any friends. And as her mum, it's incredibly upsetting to hear that. Yeah, I've gone back and read it multiple times and each time it just makes me so upset, just makes me cry that my beautiful, talented, kind and compassionate child, that this is how she feels. She sees no future, she just wants to die. That's Beth talking about her daughter Emilia.

Now the Department of Health and Social Care has described these accounts as shocking and upsetting. It says it's unacceptable that too many autistic people and those with learning disabilities are in mental health hospitals often far from home. It added under the government's plan for change it's going to move care from hospitals to the community to bring care closer to where people live. Thanks very much Carolyn and listening to all of that is my next guest Alexis Quinn. Alexis runs the Restraint Reduction Network charity,

which campaigns for people to live in the community. You're very welcome to Woman's Hour. You had an experience, Alexis, as an autistic woman of being held in hospital, like these situations we're talking about. You expected to be in for three days. That was instead three years that you remained there until you literally escaped. What do you remember

of the hospital during that time, particularly of segregation, that term we have learned about? Well, generally speaking, they're very noisy, chaotic, sensory driven spaces which aggravate sensitive autistic dispositions, which is why autistic people become so distressed. With regard to long-term segregation Baroness Sheila Hollins has called it quite aptly solitary confinement. Often the spaces are no bigger than a parking space. If you can imagine being confined to one of those sometimes the rooms are windowless, all communication is mediated so if you need something you need to

shout through a window and through a door or hope that you're heard. You're often observed on CCTV constantly, you don't know if somebody's watching you or they're not, so that can be quite distressing. And for myself, you know, I was often locked naked, there was no toilet. So it's difficult to convey to listeners actually but I think that Amelia's captured it really well. The loneliness is what gets you. It's the agony for human contact. Of course it's a biological imperative.

And I'm just thinking of you in that situation, Alexis, trying to communicate your distress to others. Like were you heard? No, I mean to start with there's a phenomena called isolation panic which is a human reaction. It's not about learning disability, it's not about autism, it's that banging on the door, it's that screaming you know please let me out, it's that panic, it's that elevated heart rate and what happens is that obviously you get tired and so people think oh you know this is helpful, you know this is improved because this person's now sitting down

like was being described about Kaseba, just laying down. But actually we've just given up. Yeah, gosh, how sad. I mentioned there to our listeners that you literally escaped. Tell me what happened. Well, I had to make a quick decision. I was about to be transferred to a more secure facility and without the escape, you know, I would have ended much like Kaseba.

The average length of stay is six years. So I made that quick decision, that momentary decision, and I traveled to Dover to confirm. But did you just, I'm just thinking you're in the hospital. Hopped over the wall, hopped over the wall and of course more secure facilities have much higher walls. So this one was, was, was, I was quite able to. You saw a moment and you took it. I took the moment. Wow and I know went, went on to travel a lot but being free, what is it like? Well it's, I've had a, you've had an opportunity now to reconnect, to reconnect with my family,

to reconnect with society, to reconnect with education, to work. And these basic things that we all take for granted, the ability to pick up the phone, the ability to go into a garden, to have some fresh air, to take your shoes off and feel grass on your feet. It's the small things, it's the small things that matter. Which are of course these huge things, but you are a campaigner now. How many other people do you think are in mental health hospitals held inappropriately, people who are not mentally ill? We know that there's 2,050 people, we know that 200 of those are children, we know that a large proportion of those have no discharge plan, more than 50%, and we know that

many are held in long-term segregation inappropriately for an average of over 400 days in their current provider, so that's a long, that's over a year. And your understanding for why so many people are detained? Well what we know is that it isn't the legislation that's the issue. The issue is you know our national send crisis, the fact that children are excluded. Special educational needs and disabilities. That's right in schools and so that's a huge issue we know that people don't have that sense of belonging and connection to their communities because of the discrimination, because people can't, autistic people can't access spaces or they can't engage in just the regular communication because of their learning disabilities.

And so what happens is that people enter a crisis. So they go on, they start off on a path that is very difficult because their needs not been taken care of at a younger age. Exactly that. Needs aren't taken care of and so the person might enter a crisis, something might happen. So for me, my brother died, you know. Sorry. But you notice with both Kaseeba and Amelia, these issues started in school. So it's about getting that right so that people don't enter that crisis and that doesn't have to be met with immediate action like what are we going to do with this person and so it's much bigger than this legislation.

The Department of Health and Social Care has said it is introducing reforms to the Mental Health Act to prevent inappropriate detention, also to enhance accountability among care providers and ensure that when detention is unavoidable it is as brief as possible. Do you think that will make a difference? I'm really hopeful that this is going to give us the opportunity to make that investment in education and in social care and make sure that people you know have that that access that I've just described. I am concerned because if

we remove the ability to detain people in care settings, albeit they're experienced as very abusive, mine certainly was really horrific as has been described on this programme, the only other options could be something like criminal proceedings or homelessness or suicide, which we know is huge for this population. So the figures are one in four autistic people think about or attempt to die by suicide and it's one in 10,000 for the general population. So if we're removing this avenue of providing care and support, we must make sure that investment is there in social care so that people don't reach crisis. It's not the legislation which is locking people up. What the issue is is the poor community provision. Community

provision which we come back to again and again. Alexis thank you so much for coming in that's Alexis Quinn from Restraint Reduction Network and also thanks to our reporter Carolyn Atkinson. I do want to mention if you've been affected by any of the issues that you're hearing in this conversation do turn to the BBC Action Line which has links to help and support. And you can hear Casiba's full story with the context as well that Carolyn's been bringing us straight after Women's Hour today in Filon 4 Investigates. That is on Radio 4 and also BBC Sounds here on Radio 4 at 11 o'clock. Hi, I'm Na Moulana Tecombo here to tell you that my podcast Dear Daughter is back. And

this time I'm joined by an all-star lineup of guests, each with some sage life advice and a letter for their daughter. Every mother has a letter in her head for their daughter. So it's really nice that that's being expressed out loud. That's Dear Daughter's stars from the BBC World Service. Listen now by searching for Dear Daughter wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

Now I want to turn to one of the most exciting new voices in indie music, Neve Ella. She's joining us live in studio. She just snuck in there while we were having a chat with Alexis and Carolyn. And she's a 22 year old singer songwriter. She has steadily been building momentum from supporting the likes of inhaler and girl in red to selling out her own headline tours. She's on the road again, bringing high energy, emotionally charged performances to fans across the UK. So we're going to talk about her rise in the industry and also navigating

social media as a young artist. But we're going to begin with a performance. This is Sweet Nothings and she is accompanied by Finn Marlowe who's on guitar and backing vocals. I was reading a little earlier he's also her best friend and songwriting partner so I'll ask her about that in a little bit as well. But go ahead, Niamh and Finn. Thank you. So lovely. Come on over to me, Niamh. Come over to our desk as you pop your guitar down and your headphones off. That was beautiful. That was sweet nothings. So tell us about the song you have just

performed. I mean, it's definitely one of my favorites that we have wrote. But the funny thing about that song is that it's a love song. And it's like about, you know, the sweetness of love and having, you know, a crush and all that, all that stuff. But when we were writing it, I wasn't feeling like that. So it's kind of a song that was like, we kind of wrote because I wanted to feel love and I wanted to feel that just like happiness.

Oh, there he goes. That's Finn making his presence known. Finn Marlowe trying to, what's the equivalent of a photobomb, a radio bomb? That is, yeah, that is Finn Molyby. They know we're live, right? Yeah, so it's just a really interesting song to me because it is just full of love, but I wasn't feeling that great. Because people have really connected with your lyrics and I was wondering about your

process then. So that's giving us a little window into it. Because you have to, I know you're right with Finn a certain amount, but you have to kind of let people in, you have to be vulnerable. Is that tricky? Yeah it's really really tricky and I think I write from such a personal level and it's kind of scary that maybe then people are gonna hear that as well, never mind just people that are just out and about, you know, driving the car or whatever. It is really scary, but also it's the way that I process everything and it's not all about love. I write about things that are really personal to me that I can't seem to actually get out by talking to someone.

Like, I don't know, just feeling the way I do, I really struggle not being like this morning, I literally woke up and I was like, I feel so down like and you just, I don't know why. And like, especially when we're writing, we write in a capacity where it's like, I literally wake up at like 10am, I'll come downstairs and everyone's downstairs and the drum kit, there's every instrument ever and I'm like sometimes I'm like, boys I just can't do it and I just feel, you know, not that great. But so then I write about it and it makes me feel so much better and it's kind of just like therapy to me and yeah, I'm just very, very lucky.

Do you feel any better now? Yes. Oh my gosh. Like we've spent so much time writing and performing this past like six months I feel so light and it's a light that that's great. So you don't feel The pressure no, no, I feel the people around me are so lovely like they just get it, you know and my fans and especially being on tour I'm on tour right now and and my fans and especially being on tour, I'm on tour right now.

And having them every night just like be smiling at me and like feeling so connected, like crying and, you know, just showing the real life emotions of being a young person. But a lot of emotions. Yeah, yeah. Now, I was listening or what was I, I was looking at your tweets. Okay. This is you the other day. Guys, I think I'm in my vampire diaries, gossip girl, minion, fur jacket Bradley Simpson era. Yes, that is very true. I go through eras where I'll get addicted to things and they are the things that I'm addicted to right now. My fur jacket I wear every single day.

I saw it in the green room. I've listened to a lot of Brandy Simpson. I really like Minions. Yeah, just things I like. Let's stop it with the Minions for a moment because I heard that and saw that people, grown women, men possibly as well, who knows who's under there, are in minion outfits. Yes, those yellow people. Are they people? I don't know. Yellow characters that are turning up to your concerts. Yes. Why?

I don't know. Honestly, this is the internet for you people get like people take things and latch onto it as I do. And I think it was because we made some jokes on like on the tours that we're like we're like minions or like, you know, when I was looking out into the crowd, you just see people with their hands up and it looks like they're minions. So I was like making a joke like, oh my gosh, you all look like minions. And then it just stuck. It stuck. So obviously, whatever you say, and that you kind of talk about that a little bit already, that it kind of goes out and then people latch on to whatever it is that they might want to. But I was reading that you said you could understand so much why Chappell-Rone told fans in August

that she needed to draw lines between herself and her increasingly large, demanding fan base. You are on a rise at the moment. I mentioned you know relatable indie queen. You see the titles that you have been given. Are you thinking about that? Where you're going to draw that boundary or how you're going to draw it? Because so much of your success originated from social media. Yeah I mean I think about it every day. For me, I grew up over social media and I was a fan of music and I've seen fan bases grow and I worry about it sometimes that I give too much of myself. I've experienced things online where I've had to literally

take Twitter off my phone or Instagram off my phone because people get upset about things and I feel like I'm Kind of feels like I'm like a head teacher of a school sometimes, you know Like you can only do so much like you can kind of say, okay guys, you know, please don't be doing this I don't believe in this but there's still people there are their own people they can say and do whatever they want. It's the world worth it. Yeah, yeah. And I understand that people have opinions and I want people to have opinions and I want that for them. I want them to feel free and great with it all. But it does really, really affect me because I'm just here learning myself. I'm a growing young woman that's learning about herself and loads of people in front of me. And like, it's scary. But yeah, it's just something.

Do you have anybody that advises you on that? Or can you speak to other stars? I know you've told I mentioned inhaler and girl in red, the courtiers, for example, that perhaps gone through that phase. Yeah, for sure. I mean, the inhaler boys have to deal with way more than I do. And I've spoken to them before and they're very very good at you know just getting along with it but I'm not good at that. I just I

feel like I have to you know apologize for everything because I am just that type of person and there's only one of me, they're a band and it's easier for, I guess, for them to all be there for each other. But yeah, I just get a bit scared. I think I'm trying my best. I think I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing is just trying to really just releasing music that makes me feel good. And I hope it makes other people feel good.

And yeah, just being kind and making sure that my community is feeling like that and feeling safe and having fun. Maybe a chat with Chappell-Rone. Oh, yes, I would love that. I feel like that would really, really, really help me one day. Now, I also read that your goal is, before I let you go, to be that woman producer who brings in younger women and makes them feel comfortable in the studio. Yes, that is one of, when I was in college, that is kind of what I did.

I was producing my own stuff for my assignments. And when I started doing sessions, especially with middle-aged men, it scared me so much. Because they're just so much more... They've done it. They've done it way more than I have. So my dream is to have my own studio and bring in people that have a dream like me and yeah, just make them feel comfortable and just they can say whatever they want. They can write whatever they want. Do come back to us.

Nivella, currently on UK tour and thanks so much for performing for us today. Before I let you go, I'm asking people about mirrors. Do you ever think about mirrors, reflections, looking in mirrors? Yeah, all the time. I don't, yeah, oh God, I don't really like mirrors. Especially lift mirrors in studios. I think lift mirrors can be the worst. Terrible. Maybe changing rooms are worse, but lift mirrors are definitely up there. Niamh, thanks so much for coming in to us in Woman's Hour.

Here's a message that came in from Alma. She says, I went to a boarding school in Ireland. The nun in charge of my dormitory had a sign over the mirror. Beauty never boiled the pot. Best wishes there from Alma 84844, if you'd like to get in touch. Nobody warned me that after successful cataract surgery, an old wrinkly face would stare back at me from the mirror. Be warned, says Anonymous.

84844 if you'd like to get in touch. Now, in the papers today you will see praise for a new drama on our screens this week about Ruth Ellis, who 70 years ago was the last woman to be executed in Britain. Ruth was found guilty of shooting her violently abusive lover David Blakely outside a pub in Hampstead. That was on April 10th in 1955. Ruth was just 28 when she was hanged three months later at Holloway Prison. That trial shocked Britain and it was a big factor in the repeal of the death penalty in the UK. Glad to say in studio I'm joined by Lucy Boynton who plays Ruth Ellis in A Cruel Love and also Laura Enston who is Ruth's granddaughter. Welcome to both of you.

Thank you so much. I really enjoyed is the wrong word, A Cruel Love but was very gripped by it, found it mesmerizing, your performance, as well as that story of your grandmother, Laura, it's really quite something. I mentioned very briefly there the story of your grandmother for those who may not be familiar with it, Laura, but what would you like to add about her trial or how you feel she was treated by society at that time. Yeah, I think the trial lasted just over a day. The jury convicted her within 14 minutes and she was executed 22 days later.

And I grew up sort of learning a certain, she was perceived in a very certain way in the press at the time. How would you describe that? She was really positioned as a sort of a jealous, social climbing lady of the night, if you want a better word, and ultimately this new book which is why this is so game-changing. So the book that the drama is based on as it was a fine day for a hanging by an offical Carol Anne Lee and Carol has gone into the most incredible detail about Ruth's context. So for the first time in nearly 70 years, we are finally going to know Ruth's truth.

And let me throw it over to Lucy then, like playing this role of Ruth Ellis. And I suppose so much of just for people who are not aware, so much has been written about her and other programs and people trying to understand her. It must have come with a certain amount of pressure, Lucy. It did but it was one that I was so eager to take on because from the beginning of my research which was so much about you know looking into the way that she'd been portrayed in the media previously, when I then started digging into the truth and especially from Carol Annelly's book I was stunned that this person is completely different to the person that was portrayed in

the media at the time. She was this very ambitious, aspirational, diligent young woman who achieved so much in her very few years and so much of that had been neglected and had been so skewed by misogyny and by classism that I was really, I felt like a massive privilege to then be able to step in and contribute to course correcting that and kind of enlightening people who are familiar with her and familiar with the case and also those who are less so. Laura, I read that you were ashamed of Ruth as you were growing up, but did you've managed to let that shame go? Can you tell me a little bit about that? Yeah, ultimately that shame and the

embarrassment that I'd spent sort of 40 years ultimately... And you were ashamed because... Because of how she'd been positioned in the media. I didn't know the full context of Ruth, didn't know the full Ruth and all the things that she'd have managed to achieve in the face of adversity. You know, she had so much going for her and you know know, I carried that shame and embarrassment for nearly 40 years. And ultimately, it was reading Carol Ann Lee's book where I was re-educated effectively.

And I realized actually, you know, the Ruth that I thought I knew was not the Ruth who actually, you know, we were gonna see in this new drama. How did it feel Laura looking at Lucy playing Ruth, you know, this fully realized complex woman? It was fantastic and I remember watching that first episode and I remember the producer saying to me, how did you feel afterwards? And I felt relief and I felt happy because finally, I understood Ruth for everything that she was,

and she was not a person to be ashamed by or embarrassed by. She had so much going for her. And she'd achieve so much. I just feel completely reeducated, and almost that shame and embarrassment slips away overnight. And Lucy, playing that, I mean, it's such recent history, 70 years, Holloway prison, not that far away from where I'm speaking to you now, the Magdala where the shooting actually took

place just a few miles away as well. But looking back into society at that time, what did it tell you about the treatment of women in general or Ruth in particular? I think it's a really interesting era to examine because post-war London, post-war England, I think regressed very much into a traditionalism as a reaction to the trauma, the collective trauma that the country had been through. But it put women, kind of relegated them into positions that were much more home-based and having been such an integral part of the war effort and had a taste of being part of the kind of social environment in the workforce, it was then very limiting for women to be

reduced back into the home. And so women like Ruth, who were very ambitious and aspirational and wanted things like financial independence, so as not to be at the mercy of a man, that wasn't supported or encouraged. So I think that kind of social context was vital in understanding the society that shaped her and the society that she was inherently rebelling against. And the jury then coming from that society. Yes. And I think such a fundamental point of this research was people feel very safe

that this is a period piece and so it feels very safely tucked away in the past but that is the generation that has informed us and how we are. The way that they behaved in the, as you'll see in this drama, is so baked into our fabric, into our social behavior, that it is not just of the past, it is very much a present tense issue too. We see, I mean as audiences will see from this drama, misogyny and classism play out in broad daylight and so blatantly and not needing to be hidden. And I think I went into this press tour wanting to arrive with statistics that

were very encouraging that how far we've progressed. And that's not what I've found. And so I hope that it is a catalyst to really examine the gender divide now and the class divide that we seem to clutch to and the way we treat women today. I think it's the second episode that I was watching that one of the characters talks about, it's the 1950s at the time, 1955, she says classes, like classism, that's going to be completely gone in the future. We're just on the cusp of leaving all those constructs behind. It's

like, hmm, or maybe not. You talk about some of the trauma from the post-war generation, you know, that come from the war, but what about your particular family, Laura, coming back to you? I found it so tragic, some of the fallout or ramifications from the death of Ruth and what it caused, if you're okay speaking about that. 100%. I think ultimately, you know, when Ruth's death sentence was handed out, it also started the clock on my mother's life and also her brother's. So she had two children, your mother Georgina. Yeah. So Andre, her brother was 10 at the time and my mother was three years old. And

ultimately they didn't receive any health, mental health support for that. And ultimately, you know, I now realize that, you you know doing a sort of deep dive into generational trauma you know child untreated childhood trauma which effectively what they went through you know was untreated that leads to unhealthy behaviors and you know can lead to chronic illness in my mother's case she died at the age of 50 from cancer and Andre died he really suffered with his mental health had schizophrenia and he committed suicide at the age of 37 so you know that and I used to grew up thinking you know my mum sort of behaved in a certain way and she chose to behave

like she did but I now realize how mentally damaged she was and and you know quite rightly so from what she went through and to how she behaved. With the TV drama I mean it's shining a light on what could be, it was considered by some potential miscarriage of justice. I know that Stephen Beard, in particular, who was Ruth's grandson, is calling for a pardon. We've kind of seen his name attached to some of the campaigns. Is that something that you think is at all possible? We've got a mountain to climb, but there seems to be... some of the campaigns. Is that something that you think is at all possible? We've got a mountain to climb.

But there seems to be... Because you tried before. We tried to get the conviction overturned. Yeah. That was in 2003. But this drama is based on new evidence that has come out in the book. So I think a future pardon would potentially be based on this new evidence. But ultimately, you know, we are having some sensible conversations right now with some credible legal team. So we'll see where those conversations land. But yeah, there

is certainly an appetite to explore this to see if we can make it happen. Because what comes across Lucy is that there were what should have been, according to some, mitigating circumstances. Absolutely. And I mean, because of the difference in, because the classism at the time, it was seen as inappropriate to discuss the extent of David Blakely's violence in the trial. So it wasn't detailed at all. It was more important to protect his good name than it was to represent her accurately. And so the jury wasn't presented with an accurate portrayal of what happened and you know two years later they started to

acknowledge legally diminished responsibility due to provocation and this just wasn't utilised in this in this trial at all. She from the GECCO admitted guilt and said you know an eye for an eye, a cheek for a cheek and kind of said, if the death penalty so be it. Why was she like that? I don't know who to put that to, Laura or Lucy. I think she was very accepting of her fate, but I think she was a very proud woman and she didn't want to be seen as a victim. She was exceptionally driven and she just was, you know, worried about what people would think of her and you know, she was ultimately, she protected a chap called Desmond Cousin

who we'll see in the drama but who ultimately should have been in the dock with her but he she protected him because he had made her false promises that he would look after the children and everything would be fine she realized at the eleventh hour that he was not a man of his word and this was when you know she appointed a new solicitor right at the eleventh hour that he was not a man of his word. And this was when, you know, she appointed a new solicitor right at the eleventh hour to try and help her cause, but it was all too little too late. Her death execution did lead to changes in the way the country looked at the death penalty. Yes, so that was with diminished responsibility being acknowledged as a legal defense.

Diminished responsibility in tandem with therefore provocation, yeah, which should have been utilized in her case. And the death penalty ended, you know, it sort of triggered the end of that. There was such a huge public outcry as to how this mother with no previous criminal conviction 28 years of age Yeah, could have been hung and there was also another case that was sort of

You know slipped under the carpet of a lady up in a strange ways in Manchester And who had killed her neighbor after a long feud with a spade and she was she was spared at the She had a reprieve. She had a rep was spared. She had a reprieve. She had a reprieve, she had a reprieve, but she fitted, she was a mother, she was married. As they talk about the perfect victim, so to speak, or image of that. How would you like your grandmother now to be remembered? A trailblazer. She was a trailblazer in life and a trailblazer in death.

You know, she defied convention. You know, you talk about Ruth now, you know, you could be talking about a modern-day woman, a woman who was running a really successful business. You know, she'd come from nothing. She'd been abused by every significant man in her life. Yet in the face of adversity, she was running a successful business. She was looking after children. She had an apartment above her club and the business was thriving and you know she really defined the norm you know and obviously she did what happened happened and she hung for it but off the back of that huge judicial reform you know the legal system changed forever and for me I take some comfort in that that she didn't die in vain you know

huge change people's lives were saved off the back of it. A short life, but such an impactful one. Laura Enston, the granddaughter of Ruth Ellis and also we've been speaking to Lucy Boynton, who plays Ruth Ellis in the new ITV drama, A Cruel Love. It's available to watch on ITV or stream on ITVX and also Britbox. Thanks to both of you. Thank you. Thanks for all your messages that are coming in. Let me run through a few of them. Mirrors. I was in a convent school in Belfast in 1970. The only use for mirrors was to put on

your school beret. They were tinted and were put at the exit door, not in the toilets or the washrooms. So nothing has changed in 50 years, Christine, in Belfast there. Here's another one. I've just come back from Florida. I noticed that sinks in the beautifully clean well-kept toilets did not have mirrors above them. I thought at the time this was probably a good way to ensure people spent no longer than necessary in the area. There was sometimes a large mirror near the entrance which no one was using. A lot of thoughts on mirrors. I want to go back to the swab story that we talked about at

the beginning as well. A woman 69, I had a transvaginal ultrasound last week, slightly uncomfortable for a second but then it was fine. As someone who finds the use of the speculum in a smear test excruciating, I was pleasantly surprised by the lack of pain and of course do go to your GP, I want to say if you have any concerns, one more. The swab is amazing news. I could cry. Yes, indeed. Some good news this morning that we're bringing you on Woman's Hour.

Do join Anita tomorrow as she celebrates 30 years of Lush with its co-founder. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. A billionaire Christian family is building a huge collection Join us again next time. The magnitude of what I found out is incredible. I'm Ben Lewis. I investigate the darker side of the arts and antiquities world, but nothing prepared me for this story.

Something truly, truly wrong was going on. Looters, forgeries, and a scandal of biblical proportions. From BBC Radio 4, Intrigue, Word of God. Listen first on BBC Sounds. Hi, I'm Namulanta Kombo, here to tell you that my podcast, Dear Daughter, is back. And this time, I'm joined by an all-star line-up of guests, each with some sage life advice

and a letter for their daughter. Every mother has a letter in her head for their daughter. So it's really nice that that's being like expressed out loud. That's Dear Daughter Stars from the BBC World Service. Listen now by searching for Dear Daughter wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Dear Daughter.