Woman's Hour - 05/09/2025

Episode Date: September 5, 2025

Women's voices and women's lives - topical conversations to inform, challenge and inspire.

Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. It's the last in our series looking at the aftermath of having a loved one take their own life. We'll be hearing a very honest account from Steph, who talks about the impact her mother's death had on her life, but also her thoughts and how she thinks her mum had hormonal depression onset by the menopause. So this is something I'd like you to also go. get in touch with me about this morning. There's so little research in this area, as we know,

so I'd like to hear about your personal experience around menopause and mental health. Are you suffering alone? Have you spoken to your GP? What were you told? Have you spoken to friends or family? What conversations are happening amongst women if they're happening at all? Get in touch with me in the usual way. The text number 84844. You can email the program by going to our website, or you can WhatsApp me on 0-3700-100-444. And if you'd like to follow us on social media, it's at BBC Woman's Hour. Also, Giorgio Armani, Italian designer, has died at 91.

He launched his fashion house in Milan in 1975 and retained control of his 23 billion euro fashion empire until he died. We'll hear about why he was such a force in fashion. And it's back to school week for some, and today we're discussing what happens if you don't like your children's friends. Have you had experience of this?

What have you done about it? Did you come up with a cunning plan to maneuver your child away from the friend you couldn't abide? What was it about the friend? And here's the thing, maybe it's not the friend that's a problem. Maybe it's your child or maybe it's you. Remember, you can remain anonymous. Get in touch with me about that

or anything you hear on the program in the usual way. That text number once again is 84844. Now, the last in our series, looking at the aftermath of having a loved one take their own life. This week, we've spoken to three women who have had the experience of someone close to them taking their own life. They speak frankly and honestly about their experience, both immediately after such a death, but also reflect on the long-term impact. Steph, now 51, wanted to talk with us about what she believes is a link between her own experience and the menopause. her mum took her own life when Steph was just 19.

Steph now thinks her mum had hormonal depression onset by the menopause and last year Steph experienced a dramatic change in herself which she attributes to a similar hormonal change and hopes that talking about her experience will help others. Our reporter Joe Morris asked her what her overriding feeling is when she thinks back to that time around losing her mum. Just sadness that her life was taken so early. but it got to that point where she didn't see her way out.

I was 19, nearly 20. My sister was only 11, so she didn't get to see my sister grow up. I don't have my mum there when I had my first child, things like that. It's always been different for me, I suppose, than my friends. I was really close to my mum, so it was, you know, a shock. And obviously, you learn to live around it, and life becomes the new norm and everything like that. but it's just of real sadness that she wasn't there.

Have you got a photo of your mum? Yeah. So that's me, my mum and my sister, probably a couple years before we lost her. This is you here, is it? Yeah. Smiling. I think we were on a holiday there. There's definitely a resemblance there.

And I think as I get older, I can see myself more than my mum. Sister, if your mum sadly died by suicide. Yeah. How old was she when she died? She was 41, so, yeah, quite young still. Tell me about your mum, what was her name? Her name was Jill. What sort of man was she?

She was like super mum. I'd dance, my sister, horse road. She, you know, worked full time, but she thrived on it, but it didn't stop her being as good a mum. She felt like Wonder Woman to me. My mum was the loudest person at the party room. Family holidays, I used to get so embarrassed as a teenager. she'd be up on stage, do Mick Jagger impressions, you know.

I did it as a parent as well, and we know what it's like, but at the time as a teenager, the most embarrassing thing she loved to do. It was just Jill. That's what people said. She was just the bright spark. I remember the summer before we lost her in the February. I'd been at university, and I'd come back for the summer, and for some reason we'd gone to a place in near Harrogook,

and we'd had a family day out, and it wasn't something, I think as a teenager, you probably don't spend the quality of time you do with your parents as you did when you were smaller and we'd been and we'd had this great day out. And I remember my mum let me drive home in the car. Her and my dad were in the back, like cuddling and having such a giggle. And it was really, that's the poignant time that you think that was perfect.

And I couldn't believe how things unfolded the months after, really. I think I never blamed her and I felt very protective over people blaming us and it was the easy option because to me she was the strongest person I ever knew she wasn't the person she was the life I had known her at the end something had happened that had changed her so dramatically and she wasn't my mum my mum I used to call her my mum when did things begin to change

I went back to university in the September and I think I came home in about the end of October and she just wasn't herself. I think she'd gone off sick from work. She seemed to be riddled with some kind of anxiety and didn't want to get out of bed and it was such a dramatic change from how she'd always been so I ended up not wanting to go back to university

because I didn't want to leave her. She was a director of a furniture company So I just worked at the branch. Yeah, it was such a shock. She was sweating in bed. That had gone on, I'd say, for probably, even before she'd start to go downhill. She'd wake up and say, oh, the sheets are dripping

and have to change the sheets. And you read about night sweats, and I think that was one of the things back in the day. It was talked about menopause, and she couldn't understand why it's such a young age. She was sweating, but there was nothing connected with why she was going downhill. or if there was, it was never mentioned by the healthcare professionals we spoke to at all.

So you tried to get help for her? Yeah, she was under the primary care physician for some time, and then she was actually referred to a psychiatrist, and the poignant thing was the last one she had on the Friday that said if she wasn't any better by the following Friday, they'd look at committing her, and I think that sent her over the edge, and that's when she took her life on the Tuesday. before going back for the appointment.

How did you find out that your mum had died? I was working in one of my mum's furniture shops and there was two policemen stood at the very back of the shop and Maureen, my mum's friend, was crying and then when I saw them turn around and look and they look on Maureen's face, it just, I knew it was something wrong with my mum. I just knew you go from being a little girl

who are protected by your parents especially my mum was always my protector and the one who did everything for me and then when you know something's going to change your life so dramatically like that it's like the whole world just caves in really and yeah that was probably the worst day of my life we just didn't talk about it people didn't talk about suicide if people asked me how i lost my mum I'd tell them it was sudden because then people would ask another question so we never had to kind of continue that conversation

about what had really happened and I'm presuming there was a coroner's inquest after your mum was there anything any mention of menopause or anything no no it was just death by suicide so yeah

and I think until that day I think in my head I convinced myself that it had been an accident I think that's what you do when pain is there. And so we're talking about the early 90s. Were you offered any counselling? No. No, we weren't offered any form of counselling for the children.

I think my dad might have been able to talk to somebody. I think he did once, but suicide back in the 90s was such a stigma. And especially, I think, in a woman. And a mum? Yeah, leaving the children. Because of what's happened with you recently, do you feel differently now looking at it? I think I understand more. You were just 20.

How did you navigate your life moving forward from there? Could you move forward? Eventually I decided to go back and study again. You know, I was still grieving. I think, you know, it was really hard. Luckily, I met my partner at the time who became my husband. And, you know, once I opened up to him, he's always been there for me. I felt pregnant at university with my daughter, so I was probably still.

on a bit of self-destruct, but that was really weird. It's like looking back now, I think she saved me because I just didn't have any care for myself, you know. So how old's that daughter now? She's 29. So you met your husband,

you had two children, and life, progressed. It did, yeah, normal life. But, you know, I did always, you always missed having that person. I was incredibly lucky, with my mother-in-law, she'd had three sons and I'm so close to her

and I was very thankful that I had her to support me. And then something changed to be here? Yeah, I think like my mum, I was full of energy. Maybe I was probably sometimes run a bit high. I think I'd worked on myself a lot because of anxiety

I think through the grief. I don't know if we do have an anxiety condition that through the menopause is heightened. I took up a lot of sport, tried to have healthy habits. I think I did a good job in general to do that. What were you working as? I was a marketing manager for a big medical company.

And you were working for a suicide charity as well? I'm a trustee for a suicide charity, so it's always been voluntary. What was the first sign that something was beginning to change with your staff? Anxiety, I think confidence in myself. I think things I could normally do really easily became like a massive barrier and a massive hurdle and not in myself. But I never put that two and two even at that time

I think at first with my mum. But I think because she'd had the hot sweats, start to think it could have been menopause, but even then I think you're sometimes in self-denial. You know it's the menopause, but I don't think you realise how much, much of an impact it was having on me, and I just seemed to get worse and worse. How old were you at this point?

Last year I was 51. I think I'd started with the symptoms probably six years before, but intermittently, I was having physical symptoms for quite some time, the hot sweats. I didn't feel like me anymore. And I felt like I was masking all the time. Nobody would know. I never, to my husband or my children or my closest friends, ever told them, about how bad I was really feeling, like, on for a long time. I think, you know, and I don't know why that was. Even after what my mum had been through, you'd think I should know to talk.

But I think when you're in it, you're the protector, so you don't want to let anybody down. The protector of the family? Yeah. How bad did things get for you? I'm trying to think. I don't think I ever told anyone that I'd had thought. thoughts like that

So you've begun to have suicidal ideation Now and again, yeah It was just like Not that I wanted to kill myself Just that it would be easier not being here You know, I'd gone on to HRT I think I'd had a bit of a wobble With my anxiety

When it went out of stock And then I changed onto the patches Instead of the gel And I think that's where It seemed to maybe slip I don't know if that's definite it, but I've got skin disorders and the more you read about it, I've got psorice and have eczema. Some people don't absorb the patch as well as the gel. You go from being neurotic

to probably be psychotic and you're not in control at all of what's going on. And it's as if it was like out of body that I didn't want to live anymore and I didn't want to be there and I couldn't, I think all I could think rather than my family are going to lose. me was I don't want them to know suicide so that it wasn't putting them through the pain I'd been through which is absolutely ridiculous because they wouldn't have had me but at the time it made total sense it didn't doesn't feel like me what happened that day by look there must have been runners coming out and found me and phoned an ambulance and took me to hospital and that's the thing I want to get across

it could be the menopause it can be other stresses in life but hormones can have an impact and we just need to look out for each other really how did your husband find out what happened so the ambulance took me to hospital when I was in the ambulance when I was coming around I heard a voice and he said he had Steph

and I realised it was one of my sons' girlfriends' dads in the ambulance and I just went into panic mode and I just said look I've slipped because then you were ashamed and then you don't want to tell anybody what's happened and then I opened to ring my husband and he said he knew straight away he said he knew I hadn't been myself and he should never have let me go out for the run like he said you were like a zombie

so he said he cried all the way from driving from Newcastle at Durham to pick me up and just seen his face was the best thing in the world but the hardest thing in the world because I knew how much I'd hurt him when you've been through it yourself as a family you never in a million years think that could happen to you so how eventually did you get help

or did you get help after that did you go to the GP or I remember going to see the GP about it and they put me on that depressants and I asked to have my HRT changed and I was so wanting because I had a month off work them to put menopause depression because I knew that's what it was

coming out the other side I knew it was related to menopause and she dismissed it. And that really aggrieved me because when you look back retrospectively, that's where everything seemed to have that impact. And I've since moved GP practices because of that. I went back onto the jail. I had some time away from work

and, you know, started to work on my well-being again. I started to feel more like myself again and the ups and downs of life rather than just being very, very empty. So eventually you told your two children and your dad? Yeah. How did you feel before you told them?

Oh, horrible. Really horrible, you know. And really now I still think should I've told them, but if I'm going to talk about it, then you have to tell them, and they're both adults. And if we can stop one family going through what I went through as a young girl by talking, then it's worth it, isn't it? Steph, how do you make sense of it all now?

I think I was just sick really ill, you know, like my mum. I think with anything, suicide has. is temporary feelings and it can feel that bad one day but the next day it might not feel that bad. Has it made you think a lot about your mum?

I just think it made me understand how things I must have been for her. I never blamed her but I couldn't understand it. I'm just happy I'm here. That was Steph sharing

her personal experience there and if you'd like to get in touch and share your experience with me this morning then do so. The text number 84844, you can email via the website and the WhatsApp number is 0300-100-444. Very powerful account. Lots of your very powerful messages coming through. So I'll read a couple out here saying I've literally just walked out of my GP surgery having had to beg for HRT. Acute menopausal symptoms and very low because of it. I burst into tears as soon as I was in front of her. Even a post-menopausal female GP can lack knowledge and sympathy. I talk to my young colleague. constantly about menopause symptoms. It needs to be normalized and knowledge shared. My mum never mentioned it. It's awful and we need to talk more, says Louise. Another message here saying four years into menopause, I had very severe depression and anxiety episodes. This was definitely

hormone related. I was finally put on HRT and for antidepressants for a year. Staying alive was a daily battle. I never thought I'd recover, but I did. I may have had long COVID too, which was undiagnosed, plus work stress. It was the perfect storm, but I'm thankful every day. that I'd survived and got better. Keep your messages coming through. I will read some more out. The question is, is there a link between menopause and severe depression? And as we heard from Steph, in her case, she made a link between menopause and wanting to end her own life.

But what can we do if we find ourselves or a loved one in this situation? Well, research in this field is in its infancy, but there have been some recent studies. Dr. Pugia Sine is Professor of Suicide and Self-Harm Prevention at Liverpool, John Moore's University and joins us now. Welcome, Pooja. Lots to get into here, and you've done a couple of studies. But first of all, there was a stat that I read that I was quite shocked to read, which was that mid-40s to the mid-50s is peak time for women to take their own lives.

Why do you think that is? Yeah, that's something we've seen for years now. And thank you for inviting me on today. So I've worked with the National Confidential Inquiry, and this is a stat that we've seen for many years, especially from age 45 to 49. Men have been focused on a lot more because the suicide rates and the prevalence is higher in men

and women are only just started to really be focused on. But a few years ago, I was contacted by Dr. Louise Newsomers, a menopause doctor, who said a lot of women are coming in in suicidal crisis, who are coming for help for menopause. And I started to think, you know, when I worked for the National Inquiry, that age group was always at high risk. And are we looking into it a lot more? So I've started delving into it a lot more. And so of my colleagues, Dr. Caroline Clements at University of Manchester recently published a study on women in their midlife.

The issue is we know about some, you know, prevalent things like unemployment, separation, alcohol use. But there's really little evidence on menopause and hormones. So people are starting to make the link because of the age, but a lot more needs to be done. And even there, they're only just starting to collect data on menopause now. Okay. Obviously, we talk about this a lot. And whenever we talk about women's health, my jaw always drops because of the lack of information that's out there. Why do you think this link hasn't been more commonly made? I think, unfortunately, the more – I've only recently started focusing on women.

my suicide prevention research. So I've done a lot of work in men and young people. But I think the problem is, is that we're not given the importance when it comes to health. I really do think that's the issue. And, you know, we just heard about Steph's account there. And I've heard many, many accounts. My PhD student, Olivia Hendricks, has just finished a PhD where she interviewed around 50 women. And this was so common, the story you heard. And I'm, you know, of age of being a perimenopausal woman and have had struggles myself getting medication for HRT. So I'm not sure why, you know, women aren't being listened to when they're coming in to GP practice and kind of saying that we think this is the reason. And I really feel like

it's not acknowledged when people are advocating for themselves sometimes. And I'm not sure why that is. Well, we're getting lots of messages coming through. I'm going to read quite a few of them out, actually. And from the ones that I'm glancing at the minute, women are desperate. But let's talk about specifics of the studies that you've done, because you've been working on the study, as you've mentioned, which highlighted, tell us about the symptoms. Tell us about the study that you've done and what you've done. Okay, so basically, as I said, it was highlighted to me that women were anecdotally coming in and talking about being in crisis. But as a researcher, I kind of said, look, we need to have validated measures here where we really do

know that that's what they're saying. So we helped to introduce some validated measures into a private menopause clinic and then we looked at the data over a year. So for women who were coming in, we got baseline data when they first were assessed and then we got data later on in the year at three or six months. And through that, we could measure menopausal depression. We could measure depression that's collected by the NHS routinely as well. And we could ask about suicidality. And what we found is, is especially for the women coming in at a high risk of suicide and in suicidal prices, a lot of them did improve over time with, you know, a combination

of medications for HRT. And I think it's also the holistic help that they're getting as well. You know, I think a lot of it is attributed to hormones, but just the fact that they're being listened to. And when we interviewed women, that's what was also added in. It was the being listened to, being heard, that's really vital. But the actual difference in kind of improvements, we saw significant improvements in depression. We saw significant improvements in menopausal related psychological distress.

And that improvement was the highest when you had a combination of estrogen, progesterone and testosterone, especially when testosterone was in the mix of drugs that women were being given. And that's something that's not yet prescribed routine. on the NHS. So there's more research happening now in Cardiff. And I think we need to have a lot more research to be able to attribute this link. In the study, women were reporting differences between previous experience of depression and the depression which they felt was distinctly different. Can you tell us what was different? Yeah. So what we've kind of felt like is when we have women who are diagnosed with bipolar depression, they have quite different symptoms.

where they might be more impulsive, they may use more violent methods of attempting to take their own life. And we see similarities for women who maybe are entering the perimenopausal phase. It's more in line with some of the kind of more violent methods we see with men. And, you know, obviously we know that the rate is higher in men

and we don't know if that's because of those reasons is the quite final methods that they're choosing. So we see that distinct difference. but one thing I thought was really interesting is generally in women you see a lot of self-harm as a risk but in this group of women you didn't necessarily see a history of, you know, self-harm. It was kind of quite quick that it came up. A lot of them were in, you know, loving families

and with really good jobs as we just heard now. And had they experienced depression or anxiety before? Not necessarily. And I think that's what's really interesting. And another kind of evidence kind of base is the fact that a lot of women who do die by suicide in that age group have had psychiatric help. So there's something there which maybe we're missing and is it the hormonal depression is what my question is, is that what's being missed? Because a lot of women are going to get help and they may be potentially getting sectioned and things which isn't necessarily what's needed. Well, we heard Seth say that her worries about her mental health and the link to the menopause were dismissed by her GP.

So is this something that you found in your research? We've found, to be honest, there's a mixture. So there's some GPs that seem to be dismissive. And there's some GPs who are very supportive, but haven't got the support higher up. So I've also heard an account from one lady whose husband was a GP, and he advocated for her to get HRT, but they weren't listened to. and she unfortunately attempted on her life. Thankfully, she is alive and I've spoken to her since. But even in that case, her own husband, who was a GP,

was advocating that it was hormonal, and he wasn't being listened to. So I think there's a real mixture, to be honest, but I think a lot of people's hands are tied, unfortunately. I mean, one of the things Steph mentioned is the discrepancies with the effectiveness of the patch and the gel when it came to her HRT. I know you're not a medical doctor,

but is that something you've heard or came across during your research. Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, I've heard it through my research. I've heard it personally as well. As I say, I'm of that age, so many of my friends. And I, this is topic of conversation now. And, you know, literally the other week I was with a friend where she was saying.

Finally, it's topic of conversation. Yeah, yes. The gel didn't work for her, but the patches do. Whereas for me, the gel works really well. And I've heard different people talk about absorption like Steph did before. So I think it depends on each individual. and it's a bit of, again, trial and error until you find what works for you. And are you fine?

Also, did you find that doctors are more readily prescribing antidepressants rather than HRT? Definitely. I mean, we definitely see such a huge prescription rate for antidepressants in this country, especially. And, you know, I think it's two-thirds are with women that are being prescribed to women. So I think that that needs to be looked at, especially when we know that many people can get, suicidal thoughts when they first start antidepressants. So I think there needs to be a lot more kind of work on follow-up. I'm going to read out a couple of messages, if that's all right with but you, Pujer,

because so many people listening are getting in touch. Thanks so much for bringing this conversation to the forefront. I just don't think the impact of menopause on mental health is spoken about enough. My mum went through a psychosis four years ago and has been battling bipolar around her menopause. She went from managing so much in her stride to really struggling. We really need to talk about this more and to help more. women get the help she needs.

Another one here, just listening to your piece on the menopause and depression, we lost our mum and our sister both at the age of 45, both during menopause. I'm so sorry, I've asked various mental health professionals about a possible link, so it's really good to hear that you're raising the issue. And one more here. I really struggled with depression, stress and anxiety when I was going through the menopause. I lost my job because I couldn't keep up or concentrate.

I did go to the doctor. The nurse wasn't very helpful at all. In fact, her comments were very derogatory and I ended up referring to a local mental health unit. The staff member told me when I arrived that they see a lot of people like me, 84844, keep your experiences and thoughts coming in. Is part of the problem, Bougar, that psychiatry and gynecologists generally aren't talking to each other? I think there is a bit of that. And I think also the guidance, the nice guidance was updated, you know, just recently. and they've brought in distress now

but I don't think really mental health has been brought into the forefront when it comes to menopause and it's only just started to be spoken about but I hear a lot of women say that, you know, psychiatrists or doctors are very dismissive of

anything that they think is a mental health issue that it could be anything related to hormones and I think the problem is the other way around as well so yeah I think definitely there needs to be some better work I mean, all of the work I do is collaborative. It's all about collaboration with different parts of the NHS, social services, you know, people with lived experience.

And I think until you do that, you can't make those improvements. And also suicide crisis is not just a mental health issue. You know, it's a social issue as well, hormonal issue. There's a lot more to it. But unfortunately, it gets boxed in mental health a lot. But some women can't or would prefer not to take medication. Is HRT the only route, do you think? No, I mean, I think from what I've seen with a lot of menopause clinics and, you know, even GPs, it's a holistic approach that's needed, you know, about a lifestyle.

We hear about women in this age group as well, having a lot of caring responsibilities, you know, whether it's for parents who are getting older, for teenagers as well. and, you know, challenges with trying to get up the ladder at work. You know, there's a lot of challenges, I think, women are going through. I think a lot of workplaces are now thinking about, you know, having better conditions for women when they're going through menopause. So I think as a society, we need to make it a much better place. Talk about this a lot more. And that will also contribute because some people can't take HRT.

You know, if they've had certain cancers and things, you can't take it. So I think there needs to be alternatives, but I think everyone's got to find what works for them individually. So what would you advice be to anybody who, you know, thinks that they're going through this right now or suspects a family member is because there will be? I mean, we're getting lots of messages through and people will be paying attention. Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's a lot of great suicide prevention charities out there now, which I think definitely people should tap into. But go into the GP first and foremost. And I think GPs need. a lot more awareness on suicide prevention and menopause. And it's kind of a double whammy in this one that there's less training for both, really.

So I think that needs to be improved from medical school. Suicide prevention is only just starting to be taught, you know, a lot more on medical degrees now. And I'm sure it's quite limited when it comes to menopause. So I think, you know, right from the beginning of the training, these things should be being spoken about. Pooja, thank you so much, Dr. Pooja-Signy there. This is a topic we will no doubt return to. And if you've been affected by any of the issues discussed, then please do visit your GP and check out the BBC Actionline webpage for help and support.

And don't forget, you can listen again via BBC sounds to the other two remarkable women in this series that we heard from this week, Sam on Monday and Eloise on Wednesday. And also we have a statement from the Department of Health and Social Care saying this government inherited a broken NHS with women's health. healthcare neglected and those suffering from menopause symptoms facing long waits or having to go private, we are fixing this using the independent sector to cut gynecological waiting lists and allowing GPs to directly refer women with postmenopause or bleeding for tests and scans.

I'm going to read a couple more of your messages out. I am tearful while was writing this message and stigma related to this subject as medical doctor and psychiatrist. I am 51 years old, so at the peak on menopause and there is not much liaison between psychiatry and gynecology, and we should have a specialist clinic for mental health and hormones. Barbara in Scotland says, without the support of the best friendship group possible, I don't know how we would have navigated the menopause and life. So much, so we ended up with the title, The Menopause Babes. We're now in our 70s and 80s. So blessed, maybe we need to get the menopause babes on to talk to us here, at Womersau. I had a horrendous

which led to depression, brain fog, hormonal migraines. I'm wondering if I had dementia. And one more here saying, and this is from Charlotte in Gloucester, saying thank you for covering this topic today. It's something that's been a huge feature of my life for the past three years. I'm nearing my mid-40s now, but it seems as soon as I turned 40, my mental health and general resilience took a nose dive. I also had other perimenopausal symptoms like heart palpitations and tiredness, lack of sleep, but the mood changes were the thing I really couldn't live with. It was affecting my family life, my ability to be a calm parent and my relationship with my partner. I've always suffered with PMT

but this time I felt utterly miserable in a completely unpredictable way I asked my GP practice for help but they did a blood test and dismissed me saying I was too young to be going through perimenopause and that everything was normal I was prescribed HRT and although it's been a process of tweaking the dose

I feel now largely back to myself again it's a rocky old road but there is often a light at the end of the tunnel thank you for getting in touch and continue to do so that text number is 84844 Now, we are talking about what it's like when you aren't so keen on your child's friends soon. And friendship is a topic we'd love to hear more on for a future woman's hour discussion.

Specifically, we'd like to hear from you if you're struggling to juggle your friendships with everything else life throws at you. Are you stuck in a cycle of surface-level catch-ups that leave you craving meaningful connections? Has friendship been forced down your ever-expanding to-do list? Is scheduling face-to-face time with your friends starting to feel like it requires? requires a logistics degree. We want to hear your experiences and dilemmas. So get in touch in the usual way. 84844. You can WhatsApp message or voice notes using 0300-100. And of course you can email the program by going to our website. Now, the Italian fashion designer and billionaire brand designer Giorgio Armani, who revolutionized fashion has died at the age of 91. He was the

archetype of Italian style and elegance helping to redefine both women's and men. suits for a more modern audience and rewriting the rules of power dressing. But how exactly did he empower and reshape the way women dress? And what is the legacy he leaves behind? Well, fashion writer and biographer Justine Piccadie joins me now. Justine, welcome to Woman's Hour. Hello. Georgie Omani, as we all know, luxury fashion designer, brand owner, but he was more than that, wasn't he? Tell us about him. Well, he was the most extraordinary man. He was born in the 30s. He grew up in fascist Italy and Mussolini and he also, he was from a very modest working class background and he was gay, you know, at a time when that was absolutely not even talked about.

He suffered during the Second World War. He lived in a part of Italy that was very badly bombed. And he himself was incredibly badly burnt as a child during the war by a shell that exploded and I was fortunate enough to interview him several times and I asked him about that wartime experience and he was blinded for a time from this injury and he was so badly burned as well so I always thought it was extraordinary that this person who was so visionary when it came to the visuals and also thought so deeply about how clothes should feel should himself as a child have gone through a period of being blinded and having this incredibly painful burns.

And I think that really, really shaped what he did in his career. Goodness, what did he have to say about it? And what was it like meeting him and interviewing him? What was he like? Well, I mean, it was like meeting, you know, a legend who's still alive. If you look at the great legends of fashion, Coco Chanel, Scaparelli, Dior, Belencia. Aga, Eve Saint-Laurent, Georgio Armani, and he was still alive and he was incredibly unusual in that

he'd founded his own brand in 1975. So when he died, that's after half a century, but he hadn't sold out to anybody. You know, he hadn't gone to work for a big conglomerate. And he was an absolute perfectionist. And he really did dedicate, you know, his life to his life. To his artistic vision. But he was also very modest. He wasn't bombastic at all. And yeah, it was extraordinary. I mean, it was the equivalent of being in the room with Coco Chanel a hundred years ago. Lucky you. Lucky you. Now, let's talk about what he did for women in particular, because he wasn't the first person to introduce tailoring to women, but he's remembered for reinventing the suit. Tell us more. Yeah. Well, Chanel introduced tailoring for women

a hundred years previously really but what he did was to make a bit like Chanel did but to make tailoring soft deconstructed to be so that a woman I mean I entered the workforce in the 1980s when it was all about if you had to prove yourself you know you were supposed to have helmet hair and sharp padded shoulders and high heels working girl working yes exactly kind of heels, you know, stiletto heels that you could stab somebody with and shoulders so big and so wide that, you know, you look like an American football. That never worked for me and I never dressed like that. But Armani suggested something so much gentler, so much easier, but it was also much more androgynous because his clothes really reached, I would say,

a wider audience through cinema in 1980 when he did American Gigolo. and you saw Richard Gere, you know, he looked almost sexier getting dressed than when he was naked, wearing those soft fluid suits. And Armani was designing those for women as well. So it was to give the sort of sartorial dignity that a woman could have, but it was it was never unsexy with it. And that's a really unique combination. Yeah, soft tailoring, nude colours. Yeah, he did use lots of greys and navies and beages. The other thing that he introduced and he also always wore himself

was a T-shirt under a suit jacket so that, you know, you didn't have to look or kind of literally buttons up. You could wear a slouchy jacket with a T-shirt underneath. And that's how he dressed himself. Yeah, so Miami-Ve-So-80s, isn't it? But also, you know, he caught the wave. of women entering the workforce. I'm not wanting to have to power dress.

I mean, he did dominate the red carpet as well with his glitzy gowns, but it's his stylish history of power suits that actually remain quite unique, even on the red carpet. Yeah, I mean, I think that he started dressing Jodie Foster very early on in her career. And I think people like Jodie Foster, Kate Blanchett,

those women who, you know, there's a kind of strength to them. He wasn't ever dressing sort of baby dolls. He didn't want to make a woman, a grown up woman. Diane Keaton, just to name check another great. Exactly. Yeah. And I think that he, that that sense of sort of nonchalance that you could wear a suit, a kind of insouciance that is rare. And there was, there was something quite subversive about that. It was the antithesis of the sort of thatcherite power dressing. And how has that impacted the way do you think women are dressing today? I think you can still see it today. It was Chanel who said fashion fade, style is eternal. And very few designers live up to that ideal where so often fashion looks

dated in six months and, you know, you can buy something fashionable and it's going to look unfashionable very quickly, whereas Armani style never, ever dates. But I think that you can see that softness, that fluidity, that comfort, that ease. I would see in the work, say, of Claire Waite Keller, who's the creative director of Uniclo and is doing wonderful work at Uniclo. So that style has been democratised. You can dress in a way that doesn't necessarily involve, you know, having a huge amount of money to spend on an original Armani jacket. But if you do know, say, have a mother or perhaps a grandmother with an Armani jacket back from the late 70s, 80s, and you could find it in the attic, or perhaps, you know,

you might unearth one in a secondhand shot. That's what I was going to say. Car boot sale. It would look as perfect if you wore it now as 50 years ago. I bet everyone's going to be on the hunt right now. This weekend, it's going to go up through the roof, isn't it? He didn't only help shape the way in which women dress because he was also someone who took a stand against underweight models. Yes, that's right.

When I was at the editor-in-chief of Harper's Bazaar, and there was a lot of concern about underweight models. And Armani was never somebody that was associated with that kind of look in models, but he also very publicly took a stand and said, you know, I never would use an underweight model and I want to celebrate women. And I think he wanted women to feel good about themselves. And some fashion designers, I think, you know,

make women feel bad about themselves, no names, but play on insecurity. Whereas Armani was about celebrating women and allowing them to feel comfortable in their own. skin, perhaps because of his own childhood experience, perhaps both because of the shame that would have existed around homosexuality as a boy growing up in the 1930s and under a fascist dictatorship, perhaps because of his own trauma during the Second World War, he was definitely on the side of joy, really. We like that. And a hugely successful.

man, expanded his company from fashion empire into beauty, fragrance, music, and retained control himself. Is he sort of the last of a kind? He appears to be the last of a kind because most other designers, they've either died or they've sold their brands to one of the big global conglomerates. But I really hope that there's a new generation of designers out there that look at what Armani achieved and think, yes, I could do that. You know, he didn't come from privilege. He came from hardship. He'd suffered trauma. And he had this vision that he remained really committed to. So I think it would be wonderful if his legacy was one to inspire a new generation. Justine Piccaddy, thank you so much for joining us to talk about George Armani and how

lucky that you interviewed him a few times. Thank you. Thank you. Lots of you getting into touch still about what we've been talking about throughout the programme, which is the connection between mental health and menopause. Brilliant to hear all of the talk about menopause and mental health. One thing though, it's really frustrating to always hear that HRT will make everything okay, as in my case it didn't work, whichever form I tried. Nancy said, I grew horns during the menopause, which resulted in me leaving my husband. Subsequently, I didn't recognize that person. Me, it was a dreadful time.

I was offered antidepressants, which I declined, and eventually normal behaviour was resumed, but at a great cost, the loss of my marriage. I would recommend that any woman in the same position takes all the help that is offered, even drugs. But that is a choice that you make. Now, with children heading back to school and settling into a new school year,

they might be reuniting with old friends or even introducing you to new ones, but what if you don't like your child's friends? From play dates to birthday parties and encounters at the school gates, is there anything you can really do in this situation? Well, I'm joined by parenting coach and former deputy head teacher, Sue Atkins, and comedian Ria Lina, who has four children. Sue and Ria, welcome.

Ria, I'm going to come to you first. Morning. What's your experience with this? Four children, do you like all their friends? No, you're never going to like all of their friends. That's just not possible. Your kids are going to make decisions, especially as they get older, which indicate that you have less control in their lives

and some of those will be hanging out with people that you don't necessarily want them to hang out with. But it's all part of the learning process. And I think it really depends on decisions you make early on. When they're younger, you have total control of their social life. And I think based on the decisions you make then can determine how far off-piece they go when they're older and are making their own decisions in secondary school.

What was it that caused you to dislike the child I mean there can be so many things I think it's there's two different areas here one is do I just not like them are they do I not do I personally find that they great perhaps as a parent I find them a little bit rude they're not pleased and thank youing or they're helping themselves to the things that they haven't asked for or you know there's that side of things and then there's the side of then there's the other side of that which is this child makes my child worse in in my opinion it might be the way that they engage, the way that they play, it might be, and especially when they're younger,

it's not necessarily their fault. For example, my children aren't allowed to play with guns, ever. That was never, not even fingers pointing in directions. That is absolutely not allowed. But of course, there's a lot of, especially if you have boys, there's a lot of gun play that goes on when they're younger. And that was a really hard one for my children to grapple with what I said, no, you're coming out of that game. You were not engaging with that. because I felt that overall that that was not a good influence. And that can be quite tricky, especially when your philosophy clashes with another parent's philosophy. Yeah.

So what do you do about it? Well, I think sometimes, yeah, if there's a specific child. Obviously, we're not going to, you know, reveal anything here, but, you know, have you managed to maneuver your child away from friends? Like, how have you, you've got four kids. So you've got lots of experience. Various techniques. It's, my techniques range from just not organizing the play date all the way to tracking down their parents on the internet and calling them personally and going, excuse me, but you and I need to chat. And how's that gone down?

Well, I mean, that was a situation where my kid had made a friend online and I was like, is this, first of all, I needed to make sure it was an actual other child that they were, that they were interacting with. And it's funny, as a parent, you don't want any harm to come to your child, but sometimes when they're a teenager and they're going against you so much like that, you almost have to want it to be someone inappropriate so that you can go, see, see, I told you the internet is dangerous. It was, it was exactly who they thought it was. It was another child on the internet, and I spoke to the father. And we had each other's, at that point, there was a conduit of contact that either of us could then use if we felt necessary. And it wasn't necessary. The child in question was fine. But it was just that the whole process of going online, meeting someone not verifying who they are, not including your parents in that side of your life. You know, that can be, you know, we've all read those stories where that can go horrendously wrong. I'm going to bring Sue in here. Sue, as a parent, what advice would you? What might be behind the feeling of dislike towards one of your child's friends? It's really interesting, isn't it? Sometimes. it is about the child, like you said, Aria, not perhaps saying please or thank you or being

perhaps too confident you think and it grates on you. I think the important thing is to think about perhaps why. What is it? You know, if they're manipulative or disrespectful, if they're engaging in kind of risky behaviour, this is an opportunity actually to have conversations because if you come at it really heavy-handed, I think you're going to just, it's going to back far and your child's going to hang out with them even more to spite you. when they're teenagers. So I think we've got to kind of handle it with care, have a look at perhaps what they like about them

and ask them in that sense. What do you like about your friend and try and maybe get to know them a little bit? But set some boundaries if you really don't like them. If you think they're leading them down a bullying route or they're hanging out in places that you don't really think is very safe, then you've got to think about that. And also introduce then other friends, cousins,

and bring other friends over to have places. So you widen their group of friendships, joining sports clubs and all that sort of after-school stuff, can help. Okay, let's give parents a bit of advice here. What are absolute no-noes? What should parents avoid doing in this situation if you don't like one of your kids' mates? What, me? Can I answer that?

Yes, Sue? Oh, my goodness. Yeah, well, oh my goodness, no problem. I think what's really interesting is the online stuff. I've got a podcast called Navigation the Digital Jungle. I see more and more of this, where friends, you think you can say anything because you're hiding behind your social media platform or something. That's very dangerous. And check out who their friends are. Talk with them. Have a, you know, have a right to maybe have a look at their

WhatsApp because that is where they're hanging out to. And some of those people aren't very nice. Talk and teach your children about kindness, pausing to ponder before they engage online with supposed friends and also talk to them about your own friendships because then you're modeling the behaviour you want to see. I've got a friend who I've had since university, so that's quite a long time now. And you sort of think, why is it that we've stood the test of time right the way through? So talk and teach your children and help them with critical thinking and actually engage with them. And if you really don't like who they're hanging out, I think you've got, you know, have that conversation, but choose your moment, look at your tone of voice, look at your

body language and don't be sort of aggressive about it. Try and build some bridges rather than walls between you because that can escalate where they choose their friend and it all becomes very awkward with the family. What happens if you just say, I don't want you hanging out with that person? Well, that's not going anywhere. It's not really telling your child why you don't particularly like them or, you know, in helping them engage in perhaps better friendships. And the other thing to remember, sometimes you have a friend for, you know, a short period of time, like the summer holidays or something. Other times you have a friend, like I said, my friend's gone through 40 years with me. So it depends. Sometimes it's a phase, isn't it? And sometimes they just do that

to spite you. Rea, I'm going to bring you back in here and you can talk to each other. When I knew we were going to be discussing this, I thought, how much of this is actually to do with, when you say, oh, culturally, there might be a bit different or how much if it is to do with you and your own self? Maybe there's nothing wrong with the other, the friend. Oh, I mean, you're speaking in my language, as an Asian tiger mom, I have standards for my children that I find a lot of their friends don't have put upon them. And that definitely has caused a clash, a culture clash between the way that I, what I expect of my children and what their friends expect of them. And it's really interesting. You know, one of my kids has a lovely girlfriend, lovely girlfriend,

but they, you know, I was giving him a hard time about trying to find a summer job. And she went, it's our summer between the GCSEs. We just want to relax and have fun. And I went, great. I want my kid to work. And it's a, you know, and it's that culture clash. I think part of, part of it is giving your child agency is, is identifying the behavior that you don't like in their friend and saying, listen, I know that your friend does this. I don't agree with that. And I would, don't want to see you doing that. So you're not stopping the friendship. You're not stopping the interaction, but you are identifying where you draw the line in terms of what I expect them to copy or not endorse in other people when you see that behavior.

And I think the other side of this coin to bring into it is that there will be people listening who some will know this and some might not want to admit it to themselves, who are the parent of that child who is unlike by others. So what do you do if it's, yeah, first of all, have the realization that it might be your kid? And I think that I've seen both sides of that coin. I have a, my children have been popular and unpopular.

at various points in childhood. That's just natural. And I think, again, it is about, I think half of the of it is being the parent that you wish the parent of the other child would be to their child, is going, listen, I've seen you engage in some behaviors that nobody else is happy with. You're being disruptive in the classroom or that behavior in the playground isn't okay. So it is about, it's very much about helping your child understand their actions and their effects on others because that is how they are then going to be able to see and process the behaviors of the people around them in relation to the world. Because if they just see someone doing something, let's say they're putting their feet up on public transport, which winds me

up to know. What do you do about saying? Well, you tell your own children that that's not acceptable. And if those other, and if the other children are with me, let's say I'm taking them all out for pizza or at a party or something, then I will expect the same behavior from all of the children. I'm not going to let, I'm not going to tell my child to take their feet off the seat and let their friend's feet stay on the seat. All of the children need to abide by my rules when in my care. Okay, Sue, very quickly, top tips for anyone dealing with this? You're talking about your values there and you're teaching them your values, talking about empathy and I think the top tip here is conversations. Don't be kind of critical for the sake of

it. Try and get them through this period and try and guide them, nurture them, towards healthy friendships. Thank you both for joining me to discuss this this morning. I'm going to read out a couple of messages, Ria Lena and Sue Atkins. And you can hear more of Ria in her new Radio 4 show, Ria Lena gets forensic on BBC Radio 4 next Wednesday. Well done, Ria.

Excellent. Looking forward to that one. I'm going to end with a few of your messages. I was the child whose friends parents didn't like. I came from a neglected household and was often dirty and hadn't been taught proper manners. I remember feeling ashamed. but it was having good friends and the kindness of some other parents that raised me up and built my self-esteem. This is really interesting. And socialisation. I'm a successful professional in my 30s now

and my good friendships from an early age are a huge part of what's led me to get here. Do join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour. The actor Robin Wright will be on directing and starring in her new series The Girlfriend. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Kate Lamble and from BBC Radio 4, this is derailed, the story of HS2. It's the tale of a railway which divided Britain, an ambitious idea brought down by political reality and what it tells us about why we struggle to build a better future. We'll hear the inside story of how the dream of HS2 was created before it morphed into a political nightmare and national punchline. the absurd spectacle of a hundred million pound bat tunnel holding up the country's single

biggest infrastructure project through backroom deals, bat tunnels and the reality of power in the UK. Listen first on BBC Sounds.