Woman's Hour - 06/01/2026

Episode Date: January 6, 2026

Women's voices and women's lives - topical conversations to inform, challenge and inspire.

Hello, this is Neu La McGovern, and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Well, 10 people have been found guilty of cyberbullying Brigitte Macron, the wife of French President Emmanuel Macron. That was by a Paris court, but it's not the end of the lawsuits. Next up, it is the Macron's against the controversial right-wing podcaster Candice Owens in the States. They've accused her of mounting a campaign of global humiliation. More on that in just a moment.

Also today, Dr. Miriam Stopart, her new book is sex, drugs and walking sticks. We're going to talk about sex as we age. Dr. Miriam sees our sexuality in later years, from drive to enjoyment, as something to celebrate. And I do have questions for you on this. How have you kept intimacy alive through different phases of your life? How do you keep connected physically if you're in a partnership? and if not, do you still feel sexual? I want to hear all the stories this morning.

You can text us. The program number is 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour. Or you can email us through our website. For a WhatsApp message or a voice note, that number is 0-3-700, 100444-4. We have the actor, Sophia Barclay with us,

who's in a new remake of Linley, a crime drama, based on Elizabeth George's hit novels. Maybe you caught the first episode. last night, plus the second episode of our series Going It Alone, were speaking to women who decided to have a donor-conceived child without a partner.

That is all coming up. But let me begin, because as I mentioned, 10 people have been found guilty of cyberbullying, Brigitte Macron, the wife of Emmanuel Macron. Most of the defendants were handed suspended prison sentences of up to eight months. One was jailed immediately for failing to attend court. some had their social media accounts suspended

and the judge said the eight men and two women had acted with a clear desire to do harm to Brigitte Macron but it is not the end of the lawsuits because in the United States the Macron's are taking the right-wing commentator and podcaster Candace Owens to court over a conspiracy theory last summer French President Emmanuel Macron and his wife filed the defamation lawsuit against Owens the couple accusing her of mounting a relentless bullying on a worldwide scale.

Well, I got to speak to Sophie Petter from The Economist. She's in Paris and also the BBC journalist Anushka Mutandi Dowarty. And I started by asking Sophie exactly what happened in Paris yesterday. Well, it was interesting because a Paris court found 10 people guilty of cyberbullying. So this is online harassment of the French First Lady, Brigitte Macron. wife of Emmanuel Macron, and they were found guilty of posting or in some cases actually reposting comments suggesting and falsely claiming that she is, in fact, a transgender woman. And that came as a huge relief, as you can imagine, to Brigitte Macron, who has been pursuing

various cases against those who've been making these claims. And this is the first court case that has gone her way, and those who have been found guilty, some of them, one of them was given an immediate sentence, and the others have been either given suspended sentences or in some cases asked to take down the post. So for her, I think for Bridget Mcron, this is a big moment. Now, you talk about the relief that Brigitte Macron will have felt from this particular ruling, but is it significant, do you think, in the grand scheme of things? Well, it's interesting that she's decided to take these cases to court in the first place. When you think about it, you know, she is a high-profile figure because of the role of her husband.

She could have decided to rise above it, as she could have decided not to pursue any of these cases in court and not to give them in a sense the oxygen by doing so. But I think that it's a measure of how distressing it's been for her to have to deal with this. I mean, don't forget, this is somebody who, um, is, you know, she's the youngest in a family. She has an older brother called Jean-Michel Tronieu, who is still alive, and the claim is that she is, in fact, him, her older brother. It's distressing for him.

Her older brother is 80 years old. It's distressing for her. It's distressing for her children, one of whom has been on French TV to describe how upsetting it has been for her mother. And it's also been distressing for her own grandchildren. So I think that, you know, there came a point when she decided she had to take these cases to court, that she had to get some of these posts taken down in an attempt to try and stop these claims being circulated. But, you know, as we all know, it's very difficult.

But I think this is therefore a big step for her in having the sort of records set straight and some sense of justice done. And that in a French jurisdiction. But let me bring in Anushka here because this is very much not the end. Brigitte has her site set on legal action in the United States. Tell us a little about this.

that big case that is coming. Yeah, someone described it as the preamble to the case in Delaware. We have really an unprecedented civil lawsuit from the Macron's. They are suing the right-wing influencer Candice Owens. And if you don't know who that is, she's quite a difficult figure to define. She rose to prominence in 2016. She's an African-American woman, but she was very, very pro-Trump, and she knew how to sort of garner attention online.

She utilises different social media platforms, really expertly, a lot of people have said. And now she has her own podcast. And a central series that she's done has been this becoming Brigitte podcast, which we're looking at millions and millions of listeners to each episode. This is about her, quote, independent investigation into Brigitte, claiming that, yes, she transitioned into a woman in her 30s, stole the identity of her brother. There are also multiple other claims in there, that there's claims of paedophilia because of the age gap between Emmanuel and Brigitte Macron. There's claims of worshipping a satanic cult. All of this, the Macron's absolutely deny. But beyond denying it, they have filed a civil lawsuit in Delaware.

And the reason that is so shocking to a lot of people is because the civil process in the US is so invasive. They can subpoena Brigitte's medical records. The Emmanuel Macron and Brigitte McCrone will have to fly to Delaware to present evidence. they will be deposed. Candace can ask them any questions she wants. So it's really an unprecedented thing that we're witnessing for an influencer in the United States of America to be taken to call by the French head of state and the First Lady of France.

And, you know, we were hearing there from Sophie of some of the implications for Brigitte within France due to the cyberbullying of that particular case. But why do you think Brigitte is prepared to go to the lens that she may have to, as you outline, in a US court? Yeah, and this is everybody's question. I had this question for her lawyers called Tom Clare,

who spoke to him on the Fame Under Fire podcast, and he just made it very clear that it crossed a line. I mean, this is a rumor that has existed in France, an allegation that's existed since 2017. When it got into the hands of Candace Owens, we're talking about 14 million views of post, 15 million views of post. And it's not just, you know, whispering here and there.

This is central to all of the content she was pumping out across her podcast, TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, everywhere. And they said it had just got to a point where Brigitte couldn't go to events without people asking her. She was conscious about what she was wearing, how she was walking. It just became a consistent anxiety and it crossed a line. I will say the content that Candace was posting, you know, zoomed in photographs of Brigitte in her swimming costume saying, we're going to catch you out it was crass, it was base and it crossed the line for the Macron's

and they're going to fight it. It must have been also, though, because looking at some of the numbers, you talk about millions, some even hitting a billion listens, it must have been very lucrative or must be very lucrative for candor zones. Yeah, I'll say.

Adverts driving back to promotions, I mean, she was selling merch with Brigitte's face on it that said, Times Man of the Year with Brigitte's face on it. She was selling that on her website. It's sold out in a day. She has so many streams of income that she's generating from this.

TikTok is a platform you can monetize off. Instagram is a platform you can monetize off. She was demonetized on YouTube. She has a, you know, you can go and donate. She consistently asks for donations for her independent journalism. Multiple streams of income because of this. Do you understand the public appetite for it in the United States? United States. I understand that the algorithm prioritises content that is incendiary and that says

things that's going to rile people up or confuse people or interest people. I understand that Candice Owens can appropriate the cadence of authority and she presents herself as an investigative journalist and that there is in the United States, but around the world, a lot of distrust in the establishment in mainstream media and this is kind of the perfect story that casts out on the truth-telling of major public figures. So I think it tapped into an anxiety had by a lot of people, but she does it. She's very slick.

She really is. It's highly, highly-produced content. But this is coming to a court. We've seen what's happened in the French courts thus far. Does that give Candice and her team pause at all, if you can tell? I don't think anything gives Candace and her team pause at all. I mean, this is a woman who got on Tucker Carlson's pocket. and said, file the lawsuit, I'll run down to the courthouse and file it for you myself.

I mean, a lot of people in the US aren't aware that this has happened in France. And the way that Candace will present this, the way she's presented previous rulings will be, well, you know, it's in France. This is the head of state and his wife in the country that they live. This is the United States of America where this lawsuit is being filed. We have free speech. You cannot come over here and silence me. So there's definitely been a line drawn.

in the sand by her about why it's different to do this in the US and why it won't succeed. Do we know what the potential outcomes could be for whoever is the victor or the loser of this case in the States? Yeah, I mean, so for the Macron's, the interesting thing is, for a defamation lawsuit in the United States of America, when you are a public figure, you have to prove actual malice. This is the standard. They have to prove that Candace said something. She knew to be false, but presented it as a fact. anyway, or that she recklessly disregarded the fact that it might be false, but kept presenting it as the truth. That is what they have to prove. Actually, none of that concerns them

bringing evidence to prove that Brigitte is a biological female or showing the motive of Candace Owens. But it is very clear that they're going to use this court in Delaware as their arena to tell their side of the story in its totality. So I think a victory for the Macron's would be proving in an atmosphere where the world's media present, influences around the world will be there, Candice will be there, her fans will be there, her critics will be there, and everybody will watch this play out

in a way that isn't being controlled by Candice, and a win for them in that arena doesn't necessarily have to be, you know, them winning the case, but then presenting their evidence in the way they want to. For Candice, I mean, a win for her would just absolutely cement her

within people's minds as being an investigative journalist. There's no doubt about that. but the burden of proof, as you've described, there is somewhat upon the Macron's to issue and to show. When will this happen, do we know? We don't have a court date, yeah. I mean, we've still got to have depositions.

We're a long way discovery. So that's all of, you know, any relevant text, emails, letters, conversations that the McRons have had, and Candace has to be taken. So I think we're a bit off a trial. We're looking at the end of 2026. That's what people are predicting. I want to go back to Sophie, interesting to hear what's happening in the United States just after the decision that has been in France. Do you think there will be any impact from the states or from Brigitte Macron being in that spotlight in, will there be repercussions in France in any way?

Well, I think that it will reinforce their determination to go ahead with this trial. But I think, you know, one doesn't want to underestimate what they. they've taken on here, as Anushika was just describing, it's quite something for them. It's a very different situation to take something to court in France and then to go and actually have to face the whole situation in the court in the state of Delaware, where they have, where they file the lawsuit, to subject themselves to the sort of scrutiny that they're going to have to do in the glare of the world's media and the glare of the sort of US-style court proceedings is very, very different and very difficult for them.

I don't think they've undertaken this lightly. I mean, you know, this is not a decision that they would have come to on a whim. This is something they've been thinking about for a long time and decided that it's something they have to go ahead and do. So if anything, I would say that the court case outcome in France will have, you know, validated, I suspect their decision to go ahead. But it's going to be a very difficult situation for both Brigitte and Emmanuel Macron when the court case actually comes through in the US.

And we know in the United States how politically divided it can be and how political lines are drawn. But I'm just wondering in France, Sophie, is there that, if not that level of division, but how the French public are seeing Brigitte Macron having to go through this ordeal? I think there's a huge amount of sympathy for her in France, actually. I mean, it's, you know, it's difficult enough being the first lady. She's been the first lady now since 2017. Her husband has to give up the office of president next year when he finishes his second term

because of constitutional ruling. He can't stand again, but those 10 years have been difficult. You know, she is 24 years older than he is. It has been a difficult time anyway. But I think that there's a huge amount of sympathy in France for this. Nobody wants to see anybody go through what she's had to go through when it's known in France to be palpably false. And I think that if anything, the sympathy will grow as a result of this court case.

And I'm just wondering, when he's not president anymore, could the spotlight come off her and everything that goes with this, including cyberbullying, for example, or other such things? Well, it would certainly be less intense if he's not the president, but, you know, Emmanuel Macron is young still and he's not about to give up the public life. So I suspect even if he's not president, she will remain a figure of interest in France. But like I said, you know, the sympathy that this court case, in many cases, people didn't really understand about what was going on online until the court cases have come to trial. So I think that that has actually, in some respects, helped her. because people have understood now what she's been going through. And she's appeared, she's been on French TV. Her daughter, Tiffin, her youngest of three daughters, of three children, have been, has been on TV describing what she's gone through.

And I think that's, in a sense, you know, open people's eyes to some of this. So even with her husband not being president, I think that she will still be, you know, it'll be less intense, but she will still be a public figure. And the court case will be followed, even if it takes place finally, even after he leaves office. Sophie Pedder from The Economist in Paris, thanks to her and also BBC journalist and Nushka Mutanda Daugherty, also joining us on that conversation. Well, I want to move on because my next guest is Dr. Miriam Stoppard. She's been writing books for five decades now. Maybe one has helped you, perhaps through a relationship or a pregnancy or with your parenting or your grandparenting.

Many of you will have loved her column as an agony aunt. Well, today, we want to talk to her. about our sex lives as we grow older. Her new book is called Sex, Drugs and Walking Sticks title that says it all really. Welcome, Miriam. Thank you. It's lovely to be here. And lovely to have you. Well, we want to have a frank conversation about sex. We don't hear a lot about sex and growing older.

Why not? Well, you know, it's a kind of taboo subject. The younger generation always kind of shies away from an image of an older person having sex and of course sex in one's older years isn't the same as sex when you were a lustful youth but I wanted to address this kind of taboo that exists about people in their 60s 70s 80s and even beyond where I think it's actually a matter of rights I think that older people have the right to be sexual have the right to take pleasure

in their sexuality have the right to be inventive experimental and instead of being kind of the subject being hushed up and kept under wraps so I think I mean I would like to see my book

is breathing fresh air into this topic I found it like fresh air and I think conversations that aren't being half, perhaps that much in the open, you have said that the need for some kind of intimacy never goes, and it is with you until you die. And you talk about, for example, people being able to celebrate that or follow that.

What sort of reaction have you got when you've said that? Well, it's mixed. And it depends on the age of the audience. I mean, if I'm talking to people in their 60s, 17, 80s, they're all nodding because the number of couples who are still having sex in those age groups is very high. And actually, in the 60s, it's higher than people in the 40s. I was looking at some of the figures. You have the stats in the book.

I love the chapter, Sex, it never stops, is the title on that particular one. But I think that might be surprising to some. You did allude to the fact that it is different in some ways. What do you mean? What do you think getting older and sexuality what people should be aware of? I'm glad you said that, you know, that the need for intimacy goes on forever. I actually believe sexuality goes on forever as well. And you can enjoy your sex in your 80s and 90s.

90s, there's quite a lot of research on sexuality and having sex, actually having sex in those older age groups. I think that, you know, your sexuality is present again until you die. And I think you just have to be more aware of it. You've got to plumb into it. you've got to think about it a lot if you have a partner talk about it a lot exchange information about preferences and maybe suggest things

that you've never thought of doing before and go to places that you never have before and to try things that you never have before because sex in the older age group can be extremely rewarding and you know sex is reliably good for our self-esteem for the way we feel about ourselves, for feeling worthwhile.

For stress. Yeah. So, you know, we should be looking for ways to express our sexuality, not suppress it. And, you know, for instance, I mean, one of the things that I say, and I hope I'm not offending any listeners, is that you should embrace your dildo. Because, you know, people think that sex is going to be kind of a desert. It isn't. A woman's body has the ability to respond to sexual activity, sexual play,

in exactly the way it did when she was younger. The clitoris, for instance, and again, I'm sorry if I'm offending anyone. This is Woman's Hour. If we can't speak about these things here, where can we speak about them? Exactly. the clitoris is just as responsive as it was in a younger person. So all you have to do is instead of ignoring it, give it a bit of attention. Now, I was watching an interview with you where you say, yes, you can orgasm in your 80s, that one can.

And that's what you're speaking about here, I think. Absolutely. And in your 90s as well. Okay. Yeah? Because a woman's body is a miracle. It can respond sexually until the very end, I believe. And there's another thing about the orgasms, as we're on that subject.

They may be more intense. And more intense than when you were younger? More intense than... I did read that line a couple of times in your book. Yeah. So, you know, and the thing is that if you've never had an orgasm and there are some women who've had children and never had an orgasm, I would recommend that you do get a dildo and you experiment with yourself and you find out what it feels like.

You find out your sensitive sports. Nobody knows them like you do and you can show them to your partner and you can actually use a dildo together if you want to because men will respond to a dildo. as well. So I think that one has to see that the end of life, the latter years in life

can be full of sexual enjoyment. You just have to be brave and go to places that you've never gone to before. Literally, figuratively, physically. And as we talk about

dildo's vibrations, lots of messages coming in, let's get to some of them. Here's one. I'm starting online dating this week. After three years have been separated from my husband of 32 years. I have a very active, I had a very active sex life before. And an okay one was my husband, even though we didn't have any sex for 14 years. So the last time I dated was when I was 23. I'm now 57. I'm ready, excited, but equally anxious. I'm a mother of four and grandma to two girls and a baby on the way. So I'm a very different person. My body and my mind equally. Bring on 20. Any thoughts, Maria? Yeah, I would say in 57, you're in the prime of your life. Come on. You mean you've got so many good times ahead of yourself. So again, I would say you owe it to yourself.

You have the right to have the kind of sex life that you want, to be active sexually. And if you haven't, if you're feeling a bit kind of shy about relations, relationships, why don't you do what I say and get a dildo? You also talk about, you get very specific in the book as well, about lubrication, for example, how bodies might change, whether they've gone through the menopause or other aspects as well. So you're very much saying, take the bull by the horns, no pun intended, and go for it. Now here's another message that came in.

As a, and she puts an inverted commas, lady GP, still in my 40s, I learned so much from my patients. The question of are you sexually active is so often followed by, well, not in a while. And me, I say, how long is a while? And a favourite answer from an 84-year-old woman was, well, it's been ages, Doc, at least six weeks. Wonderful. Give that lady a bouquet. Exactly. Why not? Here's another. Sex is the glue that holds a marriage together. Advice I was given the day before I got married. And it's true. My husband and I make a conscious effort to keep intimacy a regular habit in our relationship. Although the nights of passion we enjoyed in our youth have become after cozy cuddles and real tenderness. This habit of physical intimacy is paying off now that our children are leaving the nest and we find ourselves alone together once more. Still fancying each other after all these years. Glad to hear it. But I was struck by In your book, you talk about, you know, it's important in middle age to have that intimacy

that you can then hopefully have it later. Yeah. The research shows that people who have sex all the way through their lives will enjoy sex in a slightly different way. As you say, with lubricants and different kind of stimulation for the man. They will go on enjoying it. It doesn't stop. They go on enjoying it. And they're giving themselves.

the best chance of enjoying sex in later life. If they continue to have it in their 40s, 50s and 60s, it's a bit like use it or use it or lose it. Yes. And by the way, I mean, of course, vaginas get drier as you get older and erections get limper as a man gets older. but that shouldn't preclude sex. I mean, what are we talking about when we say sex, though? Because, you know, in media, sex scenes, film, TV, there's penetration within 30 seconds.

And that's often how sex is framed in society. Yes. And actually, I have to say, I'm going to beat a little drum here. That's a male orientation. It's not a female orientation. You know, women have been affected over the millennia because of this male myth. The male myth being that if I penetrate this woman, she'll enjoy it and she'll have an orgasm. It's not true because the orgasm doesn't reside in the vagina.

The orgasm in a woman resides in the clitoris. So finding out, it's very important that a woman finds this out because it's liberating. And also you're in control. you don't have to participate in sexual relations in a way that you don't want to and you can actually you know it gives you a lot of bottle it gives you agency when you know how sex works and it's very important that you tell your partner because most men think you know I've got this thing I've got this willie and it's the answer to everything it isn't And we've got a lot of research that shows orgasm, either by masturbation or using a dildo, is, if anything, better than copulation, so just to be.

More messages. At 73, at times I still have strong sexual urges. My husband of the same age gradually became impotent over a number of years, but it's over eight years since we had full penetrative sex. I encouraged him to see a GP and talk about it, but he refuses as though it was a phase in his life. and now that's over. No discussion. Occasionally my subconscious seems to generate

vivid sexual dreams which is my source of sexual satisfaction. It saddens me but I find other fulfilling activities to occupy and satisfy me but I want to

come back to I suppose the wide definition of sex which could be touch for example. Yeah. The thing is that

we can do what we never had time for when we were younger. We can engage in what is called for play. It isn't for play. It needn't be at all.

It's just being intimate with your partner and to see where that takes you. And, you know, to say to your partner, is that good? Did you like that? And they say, well, Pupsie could. And it becomes a conversation, a sexual conversation,

as well as what you're doing. And so my suggestion would be, I'm very sorry for that man, by the way, who's decided that sex is over for him. Because, you know, a limp erection doesn't mean that you can't have sex. Some limp erections are capable of penetration, if that's what a man wants to do. But a limp erection can also,

a man can also have an orgasm and ejaculate. His orgasm will feel the same. His ejaculation will be different because he doesn't have so much sperm at that age. But, you know, having a problem with erections is no reason not to have sex. There are so many options. It's a huge menu. And I would suggest that a couple goes very slowly, getting feedback, eliciting preferences,

stating what you like and trying to improve things. And, I mean, bringing in a whole host of things that might help you like sexual toys. I've mentioned Dilders. So why can't you watch a porn film together? And before I let you go, what about those people that are time poor and want a little bit of intimacy? You do mention some things about kind of recreating that connection. I think, like many things in modern life, you have to make an effort.

I mean, it doesn't come free. The way I'm talking, you would think that sex was a kind of every minute of every hour. I know that it isn't. But if you've got to respond to your sexuality with finding ways by being innovative, by having connection, I suppose. Yeah. And yes, indeed. And, you know, doing very small things, opening a bottle of wine and drinking it together. watching a sexy film together

and just to see how things roll and to be receptive and responsive to whatever kind of sexual instinct you're feeling and talk. I mean, talk, talk, talk, talk. It's the greatest aphrodisiac. Well, thank you for talking to us. Dr. Miriam Stoppard.

Her book is Sextra. and walking sticks, a guide to living your best life in your 60s, 70s and beyond, and it has everything. It has more than sex. We kind of drilled down into the sex part this morning, but a pleasure to speak to you. Thank you so much for coming. Thank you very much. Thanks for your messages. I'll read some more of them. But I do want to turn next to our second installment in our series, Going It Alone. This week, we are talking to three women about their decision to have a donor-conceived child without a partner. That's women who, who are having donor-conceived children

and it's different to single mums who may have split up with the child's father. You can go back to yesterday's episode when we heard from Lucy, a solo mum by choice, whose second child is on the way. We also heard from the donor conception network. They're a charity.

And we heard from the UK Fertility Clinic Regulator, the H-F-EA. That's all about the legal and ethical considerations if choosing this route. Well, more women than ever in the UK are choosing to become solo mums by choice. Some of the statistics show a dramatic rise in single women turning to IVF and donor conception to start a family on their own terms.

Jay is 47 and lives with her mum, dad and seven-year-old son, who she had by IVF. Solo motherhood was not the life she expected. When she was 25, Jay had an arranged marriage that ended in divorce. And she wanted to talk to us about her reasons for going it alone and her long journey to making the decision to have a child on her own. Our reporter Joe Morris met Jay and her seven-year-old son. at their family home. First they show Joe some of his baby pictures. Tell Miss Joe who everybody is. That's my grandma, that's my dad. Well, that's your granddad. That you

call dad? Yeah. Yeah. Who's that? That's me. That's you. So you're in your mom's arms there in the middle? Yeah, I had a lot of hair. You still do. If you told me when I was younger that I was going to be a solo mum, I wouldn't have believed you. Because why would I be a solo mum? I'm studying, I'm going to get good grades, and then I'm going to get married. Not even in my wildest dream would have thought I was going to be a solo mum ever. So how would you describe the route to becoming a solo mum? How easier decision has it been for you? The decision itself was really easy. I'm doing the IVF was very easy but the journey to making that decision was really long. I got married when I was 25. It was an arranged marriage. I moved overseas and within six

months we'd separated. So you were 25 when you got married? Yep. And you went to live in another country? I did. Well, your husband was. Yes. How soon did? How soon did do you realize it wasn't going to work? I realized settling into his family and immersing myself into his family and the way that they were was going to be a lot harder

than I thought it would be. They were trying to control me and mould me into whoever they thought they needed me to be. And who do you think they wanted you to be? A good Indian woman. wife. So what I know now is I suffered emotional abuse. And I think it was at that point where I was

like, I don't want to go back to the UK anymore. And if I do go back to the UK, I want to prove everyone wrong. So after your divorce, how long? Ten years. So you're away for 10 years. Yeah. Yeah, I was away for 10 years. What were you looking for? I was looking for me. You know, if I can't be married, then I want to be successful somewhere else. After your divorce, did you think before you came back, did you think that children were an option for you? No. I just didn't want to be in a relationship, to be honest. I just thought, you know, and I remember conversations with my dad where it was like, when we talk about me getting into a relationship or me getting married again, it actually makes me sad. It actually hurts. Whereas I'm living life to its fullest. I've got a great job

I've, you know, I'm ticking all of the boxes I want from a career perspective. I don't want to be, people are expecting me to get married or anything. So, you know, I remember those conversations with dad going all of these conversations about I need someone in the future, a companion is what you'll need when you get older. All of that kind of just made me really sad. It was only when I came back to the UK, when I moved back, that the thoughts of children started coming to my mind. Mom, can I eat this kick?

After lunch. Oh. That can be your pudding. You can't have that much sugar. Your teeth are fall out. Well, they won't today. They might tomorrow. Go have a look at Naimah's teeth.

All their teeth are falling out. No, not there. Well, some of them have. Jay, can you remember the day you decided to go solo as a parent? or was there a cross-road moment when you thought it was an option? Yeah, for a long time I wanted to adopt and then I met up with a friend from school and her and her wife went through IUI

and it kind of gave me the idea of there are other ways of me having a child and I knew that if by the time I was like 36, 37, if I wasn't in a relationship, I could do it all on my own. And I wanted to. And so I did. So seeing your friend kind of planted the seed that this was a possibility. Yeah, because I always did what society or culture needed me to do. And so if I stayed away from my family for that long to find who is Jay, then why am I

waiting again to go down a traditional? route. I've just gone backwards and gone back to well society says I need to have a man but that was the reason I didn't come back after I got divorced. I did consider adoption initially. Why didn't you choose that? What was it about having your own child I suppose? I mean call me selfish but like I wanted to be pregnant. I wanted to carry my child. I got to make my baby, you know, like maybe not in the conventional way, but I still made my baby. You know, I picked the sperm. What was it like telling your parents that you were going to go solo as a parent? Can you remember the day? Yeah, so I initially told them I wanted to adopt and they

were fully on board with that. But this one, I had no idea which way it was going to go. but I had kind of made up my mind that I will do it with or without them but this is the path I'm doing and I was bracing for the well no have you thought about the consequences have you thought about what society might say like all I'd kind of catastrophized in my head

about what they might say there was no way I was telling my dad because I just thought that's a bit of an awkward conversation so I the plan was I tell my mom and then my mom tells my dad And when I told my mom, she was like, okay, then. And they were the words out of her, okay, I still remember it. They were like, okay, then.

It's like weight lifted off your shoulders. You're not carrying that, that, the expectation. I have made that decision, and now I'm just going to execute it. And I'm just going to see it through to delivery. Quite literally. Deliver a baby. Yeah. Maybe that's where my son gets his weird humor from.

Yeah, I had a lot of hair. You still do. We had a haircut yesterday, didn't we? Yeah. What are you going to show me next? Ooh. So what's this one? It's just me and my mom.

And what's she doing? She's holding me. Am I giving you a hug as well? Yeah. Yeah. Mommy was in love with you. Mommy still is in love with you. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So how old is your son now? Seven. How much Jay have you told your son about how he was conceived? Had you had a plan of what you were going to say? I had zero plans because I just didn't know when those questions were going to start coming. But he came home and he just said, where's my dad? And I thought it would be more around about now, seven, eight.

so for it to come when he was four yeah I really wasn't ready for that I don't want to say you don't have a dad I think he's too young to be told something that brutal have other children at school asked him about his dad yes they do ask him where's your dad might you know

and I think you know for him he hears me call my dad dad and so whereas before he never used to call him dad he now does call him dad and it's one of two reasons he calls my dad dad because I call him dad so he naturally calls him dad or it's his way of going I do have a dad which kind of confuses people because that's granddad um but I you know he he does reference dad as dad and and we, I call him, I now call my dad Dadoo, trying to get him to go back to calling him that, but he's set on, that's Dad.

If he's calling my dad Dad with love, then, you know, and it gives him the comfort he needs or the security he needs, because he doesn't understand fully, right, then crack on. So I don't feel like there is a gap, and I don't think, you know, my mum or my dad feel like it's a gap. It's just, this is our family. This is how it works. And are there questions that you dread that he might ask? Yeah.

Like, what do testicles do is what I got the other day? And I was like, oh my goodness. Like, I played both parts. You know, like other people are quite, like, go ask your dad or go ask whoever this, you know, but I've got to do it all. He's a Nana Are you a Nana?

No Are you a banana? No Are you a sausage? No Who are you then? Fast You're fast, you're flash

Yeah Yeah He just doesn't start Okay You are So how old are you now? 47 This is a difficult question

Only because it's something That I wouldn't want to think about As a parent But if something were to happen to you what would be the plan for your son? Have you thought about this? Yeah, I have. I think, you know, from the day he was born, that protection's been there. And what hit me was, well, what happens if I'm not here tomorrow? I've got two people in my will that, you know, if anything was to ever happen to me,

that they would step in and help me. Some people, Jay, might say this is a selfish, decision. What would you say to them? How is it selfish? You know, like, is it, is it selfish that a husband and a wife has children? Is it selfish that, you know, same-sex marriage couples have children? Like, because I've decided to do it on my own, how is it selfish? I am stable enough to support my child. I've never, ever had to go to the government for any kind of benefits or anything like that. I take my child to school, I bring my child home, I do his, you know, homework with him. Like I do everything that he needs at this age.

And I will be there for him when he's 8, 9, 10, 11, no different to anybody else. The only difference is I'm doing it all on my own. seven days a week, 24 hours a day. That journey that I have walked from a young age, through divorce, through, you know, refinding myself, to wanting a family, you know, people don't just decide one morning they want to become a solo parent. Everybody out there who is a solo parent, there is a reason why they have become a solo parent by choice. For a woman thinking about this journey, starting out as a solo mum, what advice would you give? What advice would I give? If it's something that you really want, don't let anybody or anything stop you from getting to the end.

You know, people are going to talk. People may not talk. People will have opinions. People, you know, might go, I told you so when you're having a... hard day. They're not the people that matter. So I think if it if it's something that you you want and you've been thinking about it and and the reasons that are stopping you from doing it is that noise, then you need to shut that noise out. Otherwise you'll never you'll never go through into becoming a solo parent and it takes a village and it does. You know, I've got my parents

there if I need advice or you know there's an emergency and I can't go pick him up or anything like that but there is a wider village that you can tap on and throwing it out there what would you say to your future self oh my goodness good luck um knowing my son um i think from to my future self is is don't have regrets wow so jay there and that's episode two you can can of course go back to yesterday's program on BBC Sounds and listen to another mum that's Lucy. We had the Donor Conception Network charity and the UK

Fertility regulator, the HFEA on as well. HFIA talking all about the legal and ethical considerations when choosing this route along with the charity donor conception network. So we will have another episode tomorrow.

That's Emily who became a solo mom in the 90s and also her son Kim, who is now 30. Listening to that, this woman got in touch. She says, I'm 36, I'm a gay woman. When I was 25, I was told that my biological clock was running out fast and that if I wanted to have children, I would have to act quickly. I went down the road of donor insemination

and was lucky enough to fall pregnant twice, but sadly miscarried and ended up having a partial hysterectomy. I'm writing anonymously because to this day, none of my friends or family know about it. The journey to solo motherhood didn't work out for me. However, it gave me a new lease of life in a different way. I'm now training to become a midwife, having been entirely inspired by what I learned about my body while going through that journey. Thanks very much for getting in touch 84844 if you would like to on anything that you've been hearing in the programme.

Now, many of you will have seen the new TV adaptation of Elizabeth George's much-loved Linley Detective series novels. Started on BBC 1 last night. I got a sneak peek a bit before that. But central to this four-part series is the relationship between detective and special. Tomi Lindley and, played by Leo Souter, I should say, who is the son of an earl and the working class, no-nonsense detective superintendent Barbara Havers, who has been assigned to work with him. Barbara is played by Sophia Barclay, who's with me in studio. Good morning. Good morning. I want to bring a little clip off the show and the relationship that gets off

perhaps to a bit of a rocky start. Do me a favour, would you? You're going to make a report to DCI and at least have the card seat to warn me in advance? He asked me a direct question and I answer. And? You didn't think it would be best to alert me? Oh, look, whatever's going on between you two, yeah? It's got nothing to do with me. Yeah, I see. He's giving you a full lowdown. No, he just said that you guys have worked together before, that's all. And then he asked you for a case up to him.

And knowing he was out to get me, you happily provided it. It wasn't like that. Look, there's one quality I value above all others, okay? That's loyalty. Hang on. You do not get to question mine. No, you hang on. I've stood by you since I got here. What the hell's that supposed to me? They think you're a pain in the ass.

Pain in the ass. I have to say the character, Sophia, is not that likable. She's not afraid of conflict. She says what she thinks. Fun to play, I'd imagine. Ah, the most joyful. I think it's such an interesting topic, isn't it? Whether female characters are likable or not.

And it's something that, you know, we can discuss that length. But I think that as an actor, to play those kinds of roles, where you do get to just be a little bit more balshy, a little bit more brazen, a bit, you know, you know, not caring about what people think about you. I think that's a real delight. It's really interesting, even listening to our previous item on, you know, don't care what people think for those people that are not going to be helpful. But their relationship over the episodes,

it comes from really disliking each other to one of respect and friendship. And this relationship is also a class divide between them. What do you think it is about the relationship the characters that people have loved so much since the first book in 1988 which is quite a while ago now. Yeah, that's such a great question. I think that the books, the first series and now ours

are all quite different in terms of like the context because obviously the world's changed quite a fair bit but what you just hit on is so beautiful because Elizabeth George who wrote the novels she's also exact producing on ours. Yes, I saw that. So she's been kind of with us every step of the way

and that I think has been like such a guiding light for me, because she's clearly safeguarded those, for lack of a better word, the essence of the characters and the spirit of that relationship. I think, and I hope that we transfer that still in a modern way to audiences. And I think that's what people go for, is watching two people who maybe have these judgments about each other or completely don't understand each other, have different world views, can come together and still realize that they are actually kind of kind of kind of kind of kindred spirits in the way. Your character has a mixed Indian in British heritage, which does modernise it

or reflect society, perhaps, a little better. Yeah. Do you know, it's so funny. I feel like I love the way that that is a change that hasn't actually been, how do I say this? Maybe five or ten years ago in TV, there would have been a moment where that would have been made a bigger deal. Into headlines, yeah.

Right, but actually now it's just quite subtle the way that it's been woven into the texture of the show. And I think that's quite elegant and reflective of the society we live in now. Class, of course, is this big discussion that takes place. I was reading an interview you might have seen it this morning as well with your co-star Tom, who did go to Oxford like his character. You went to Westminster School, very prestigious school in the country, your grandfather was Sir David Barclay. People might know, a self-made billionaire. And some might think, would it not be easier for you to play Lindley rather than the working class woman

Barbara Hayver is? That's so funny. I think that everyone in the world, probably if you scratch down a little bit hard enough, would say they've got in imposter syndrome in any workplace, anything that we have. And the truth of the matter is, is when I read the character of Barbara Havers, before you get into anything else as an actor, you have this moment where you feel like a kind of, like a connection to a character. And I was really lucky because when I read Barbara,

I felt immediately like I knew her, but not because of anything intellectual, but because of, it's quite personal to say this, but because I had a kind of instinct that she was someone who I've probably been at some point in my life in different ways, meaning we've all had different parts of ourselves that have struggled with certain things at different points in your life and I just understood a lot of the struggles that she seemed to be going through.

So luckily for me, my entry point to this whole show has been my kind of love and connection to want to do a really good job of portraying her and that's all I had to really focus on. Yeah, and she's a strong, she's got great energy and I noticed that about you the minute you entered this studio kind of you

know what it's true because you've got a kind of a dynamism about you I did read that you initially started in stand-up comedy it's quite a change

now it's funny I started off in theatre I'd say more than stand-up but stand-up is something I've done for sure over the years and to be honest

it's sort of it's sort of well I think true stand-up comedians right they're real artists in the sense they craft these sets where you have like a beautiful I mean when you watch someone do it it's a whole beautiful art they have like

callback jokes and architecture of a show is so subtle and brilliant and I'm definitely not one of them but I did definitely try and do stand-up and did some stand-up because I think as an actor you've got to figure out what your brand of humor is because everyone in the world's got a different signature right that they are drawn to

and what fits naturally on you so it was more of as an exercise as an actor first off and then what happened is I realized I just really enjoyed it and when I'm not working as an actor when you're not getting jobs it's so important to make sure you feel creatively empowered and not waiting always by the phone for someone to call you and give you a job

which is just an acting issue and so stand up was a way that I could do that it is you mentioned there the financially kind of precarious career that acting can be waiting by the phone do you think enough opportunities exist for those that don't have a financial safety net in our last 30 seconds or so? I think that's brilliant I think there's something

very beautiful about the arts being available to everyone no matter where you come from what school you went to and I think it's very important and I think that arts saved me and saved my life not to be too dramatic about it and so I think that those conversations and making sure that whatever government we have that everything's being done

to make sure that it's accessible to everyone around the country is we can't talk about it enough I know people have loved Lindley I was watching some of the reviews this morning as well Sophia Barkley is in all four episodes The first is on BBC iPlayer and it goes out weekly on Monday evening so now you have something

that you can sit back and watch and know exactly who Barbara Havers is. Thank you for joining us. I do want to let people know tomorrow I'm speaking to Lara Feigal about her new book, Custody, fascinating stuff, The Secret History of Mothers.

She talks about child custody and how it's curiously absent from history books. Join me then. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm Amul Rajan and from BBC Radio 4, this is radical. We are living through one of those hinge moments in history

when all the old certainties crumble and a new world struggles to be born. So the idea behind this podcast is to help you navigate it. What's really changed is the volume of information. That has exploded. And also by offering a safe space for the radical ideas that our future demands. Go to the transfer and say, radically cut the tax. of those with children. Telling our stories is powerful and a radical act.

Listen to Radical with Amal Rajan on BBC Sounds.