Woman's Hour - 06/05/2026

Episode Date: May 5, 2026

Women's voices and women's lives - topical conversations to inform, challenge and inspire.

Hello, I'm Nula McGovern and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Three years ago, Christine Daywood lost her husband and son aboard the Titan sub. They were diving to view the Titanic wreck. Christine will be with me in studio to tell me about her experience that took place over the 96 hours that she waited, with hope in her heart to hear their fate.

She has written about it in a new book. Also this hour, get ready for a sound palette sculpted from sampled audio and homemade instruments. We have Cog, Selena Kaye and Keras Hogg. They are an experimental musical duo who are about to release their debut album. And you probably will have heard that Sir David Attenborough,

the legendary broadcaster, Natural Historian, will turn 100 on Friday. How has working in the natural world changed over that time for women? Well, we're going to hear from Sophie Darlington, pioneer for women as a wildlife cinematographer who has collaborated with Sir David many times, and we'll also have Maya Rose Craig, also known as Birdgirl. And to that end, maybe you're basking in the natural world

as spring properly takes hold. I'd like to hear from you about any of your conservation projects that perhaps you are managing in your home, in your garden. Maybe it's cultivating native wildflowers. Installing an insect hotel or building bird boxes or a toad abode, I want to hear how you're doing your bit and perhaps in a way following in our guests' footsteps. To get in touch with the programme, it is the usual way.

To text, the number is 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note, that number 0-3-700-100-144. I'm looking forward to hearing all about your projects. But let me begin with an investigation by BBC News that has uncovered the unregulated world of self-styled baby sleep influencers or sleep consultants, as they are sometimes known. Some practitioners have legitimate medical training, but the investigation has found others with no qualifications offering dangerous advice to desperate, exhausted parents.

With me is the senior BBC reporter, Divya Talwar, who carried out this investigation. Good morning, Divya. Morning, Lula. And Olivia Hinge, who's an NHS midwife and lactation consultant. Good morning. Good morning. So let me begin with you, Divya.

How big is the baby sleep industry, as it's called? Well, in our research, we came across hundreds of accounts on social media, calling themselves baby sleep experts, consultants, coaches. And anecdotally, we have been told that the industry appears to be growing, it's booming, but the baby sleep world is completely unregulated. That means that anyone can call themselves an expert, there's no checks, no oversight, and no accountability. So it's impossible to know just how vast the industry is, because there is no register of everyone providing paid support to families.

What did your investigation find? Well, look, while many individuals will give safe advice, valuable support to parents who are struggling postnatally, we have uncovered a dangerous side of this industry. Dozens of parents have raised concerns with us about multiple self-described baby sleep experts. They say that they have paid hundreds, some even thousands, Nula, for advice that they say contradicts NHS guidelines. So placing babies in unsafe environments, positions, putting loose items in the cot, all of those can significantly increase the risk of sudden infant death syndrome.

Something known as SIDS used to be called cot death. years ago. Now, one mum we spoke to Emily, she was a new mum who turned to a popular, self-described sleep expert when her four-month-old son was waking regularly during the night. It got to a point where we were on, like, hourly wake-ups. We were pretty broken. And it really got to a point where we were desperate. And as first-time parents, we just needed help. Once she'd decided that my son had reflux, she just said he needs to be sleeping on his front, he needs to move to full weaning and water. You need to go to the pharmacy and get infant gavascone.

You need to be using suppositories. I was really, really upset. Really upset. It kind of felt scary that someone had just sat. medically diagnosed my child had guided me to do things that is against guidance. I felt quite preyed upon. And you can hear the emotion in Emily's voice there. Your team, Divya, decided to check out that sleep expert undercover.

Yeah, that's right. Emily wasn't the only one who raised concerns about Alison Scott Wright. Now, she's a popular self-described sleep expert. She has nearly 40,000 followers on Instagram. She's written baby sleep books, endorsed by big celebrities. She's even been on the telly sharing her baby sleep secrets. And while Emily chose not to follow any of Alison's advice, we've spoken to parents who have at a point where they said that they were incredibly vulnerable and desperate.

Some of them had postnatal stress, anxiety, even depression. So we booked our own consultation with Alison. Our undercover reporter posed as a new mark. with a nine-week-old baby. He was waking often in the night. Fairly typical at that age, Nula. The consultation was online, and without ever seeing the baby Alison

suggested several diagnoses. She's evidently got a tummy problem then. I do wonder if she's got a cow's milk protein issue. It may well be that she has got a tongue tyre. We don't necessarily have to jump to if she's got reflux, but there's a big alarm bell. I think it would be prudent if you can bear it to remove dairy from your dog.

I can't tell you to do this, but every baby I work with sleeps on its front. I'd never do back sleeping. I don't agree with it. Because I'm telling you now, the front sleeping is an absolute game changer. And it's one of the biggest travesties of modern day parenting when everyone says you've got to sleep them on their back. Okay, there's a lot there, DeVia. Yeah, there's a lot to unpick there. And at the end of that 50-minute call, we probed Alison's qualifications because she did suggest a number of diagnoses. She suggested placing the baby to sleep. on its front, which we know goes against all guidance. She said that she was a former midwife, but no longer has a licence to practice.

And in fact, Nula, she said there is no qualification that anyone could have for what I do. And that's true? Well, I mean, there is such a vast range of training and qualifications that people offering sleep advice may have. People like Alison, you know, many years ago may have been a midwife. There are people that can do a one-day course and call themselves a sleep expert. So the reality is that there is no training, standardized training, that people need to have before they can offer safe sleep advice. And part of this is to calls that some have to regulate the industry,

which I'll come to in a moment. But I do want to pick up on some of the aspects that were brought up there. Olivia, let me bring you in here, who is an NHS midwife and a lactation consultant. particularly that issue that Alison, the person who was hired in this particular instance under cover, was saying to put the baby on their front, not on their back, which NHS guidelines gives. Why is that so important to underline that that is wrong? I mean, we introduced in the early 1990s the Back to Sleep campaign,

and that has been shown to be the greatest thing that we have ever done to improve child health and mortality. we've reduced SIDS deaths by over 80%. So there are other factors as well for safe sleep, but that's one of the greatest achievements. And when you watched that video or saw that call, what was in your head, what came to mind? I mean, I knew that these sorts of conversations were being had via social media, but I was still so shocked.

It made me feel sick to my stomach. I also was amazed that she was giving all this medical advice without any qualifications. I'm a midwife and lactation consultant, fairly experienced. And I have a governing body that would say to me, hang on a minute, that's way beyond your scope of practice if I were to say anything similar to what she had. And it really just brought to my attention. Actually, this is such a dangerous area for such vulnerable families.

And that is a point as opposed to underline. You did mention it, Divya, but people are at the end of their tether, basically, sleep deprived, desperate, looking for help. You did approach Alison Scott right about this. What did she say in response? Yeah, after our undercover, we approached Alison. She did not respond specifically to our questions about front sleeping, but in a statement she said that she has helped a multitude of babies and families.

She said that many parents had already sought help from the NHS and private health professionals, but remained concerned about their babies distressed. She said that her role is then to support them in navigating these challenges alongside not instead of medical advice. With Emily, we heard the emotion in her voice. How would you reassure parents, Olivia, who may now feel confused or alarm? We know that some of these consultants have huge,

I've kind of maybe put that in verticomers, depending on how we want to see it, have huge followings online. It's really difficult because I would love to say, oh, review their qualifications, but you can do a free three-hour course online and then feel that you're qualified to be a sleep consultant. So what I would say is if you're a parent looking for sleep help,

which I think we all understand, it would be reviewing the safe sleep guidance and infant feeding guidance from the NHS and Lullaby Trust, and then talking, checking what they're saying, is that aligning with that and does it align with your gut as a parent? Okay, Katie's just got in touch. and she said a mother to a five-month-old baby who does not sleep. Out of desperation, we are speaking to a sleep consultant today.

I feel like mums are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Olivia, speak to Kate. Kate, I think it's really important that this isn't demonising getting help with sleep. This is making sure that the people that are helping you are ensuring that you and your child are safe. It's not an argument about should we or shouldn't we sleep train. It's about safety. So what sort of questions should she be asking?

So I would be asking what sort of techniques would you be suggesting? And in an introductory call, not before you've committed large sums of money. And if what they are advising goes with the NHS guidance and it feels right in your gut, then I think that's the best we can do. Because I think watching your film, what there appears to be is women and men, I'm sure, that are looking for help, that, you know, feel that they don't have other avenues. is, Divya. Yeah, that's right.

I mean, Nebula, I spoke to dozens of parents, and every single conversation, the mother or new parent mentioned feeling vulnerable, feeling desperate, you know, parenting as a new parent without your village, then you add sleep deprivation into the mix. There is limited postnatal support we've been told, and so there is conflicting information online.

It is incredibly challenging for parents to know who to trust, where to go to for support, and this investigation isn't about shaming them, like you mentioned, Olivia. It's about showing that there is a dangerous side to this industry and something needs to be done about that. What about the Department of Health and Social Care? Because, Manny, we'd consider them a first stop. Well, the health secretary West Treaty told the BBC

that dangerous misinformation dressed up as expert advice is putting babies' life at risk. And he said that the government plans to restrict individuals from using the term nurse in their title. So, for example, someone calling themselves a maternity nurse. Now, that is obviously an important first step. Nula, there was this recent inquest, this tragic inquest, that found a four-month-old baby Madison Bruce Smith died after a so-called maternity nurse placed him to sleep on his front

in an unsafe sleeping position. Madison's family has been in contact with our team, has said that West Streeting's proposals to ban anyone using the term maternity nurse don't really go far enough. They want regulation for anybody providing paid care for babies. So there is clear training, there's oversight, there's accountability.

There is also, Olivia, with this story, I suppose people trying to understand, parents trying to understand, what is normal and what is not normal. And how long should a baby basically not be sleeping through the night? And I wonder, like the expectation perhaps, is it matched with reality? In my experience, no, they're not matched.

I find we are forgetting that it's biologically normal for a child in the first couple of years of life to be regularly waking and needing parental support to go back to sleep. But does that align with current modern parenting and the demands that are placed in us? No, it's really hard. It's really, really hard.

I realise as well with the United States where there was proliferation as well, but women there often get six. weeks maternity leave before they need to return to work. So of course there is an added pressure in trying to have a baby sleep through the night, to be quite frank, and to have some energy during the day for yourself. And pathologising normal infant behaviour sells products. I think that's what's very hard for parents to be able to cut through that and see with clarity. Another got in touch. I've been working as a nanny for 11 years looking after babies and I've been

telling parents that sleep experts are, puts in inverted comments, are of how our overrated for years. It's quite demoralising after working so hard for 11 years seeing the consultants coming into the picture and often charging a fortune.

I want to thank both of my guests that have come in to join me. Divya Talwar, her investigation is on the BBC homepage at the moment and we also had Olivia Hinge, NHS midwife and lactation consultant. Of course, I will say

do consult your doctor if you do have any concerns about your baby and baby sleep and if you've been affected by anything, you may have heard in this discussion, you can go to the BBC Action Line where you will find links to help and support.

Thanks for your messages coming in, not only on sleep and babies, but also on conservation. Here's one. After seeing hedgehogs in my street in Cardiff, I started with a food dish in my garden and now have a hedgehog feeding station and two nest boxes.

I've got at least two full-time residents and several more regularly visited. Well, before you know it, there'll be a waiting list to get into the Hedgehog Hotel. Thanks so much for your messages 844-844 if you'd like to get in touch. Now, on the 18th of June, 2023, 19-year-old Solomon Dawood died alongside his father, Shazada, and three other men on the Titan submersible as it attempted to dive down to the Titanic. You might remember this story. There were 500 metres above the record.

when the submersible imploded. It was a tragedy that made headlines all around the world. After an 18-month investigation, the official report into that tragedy concluded it was preventable and caused by inadequate engineering and testing. Christine Daywood is an organisational psychologist, a family business leader and a philanthropist. She's now written a memoir, it's called 96 hours,

about losing her son and her husband and her experience during that four-day search for the law sub. I found it's such a compelling read, Christine. Welcome. Thank you. So good to have you with us on Woman's Hour. It's a heartbreaking read and we alternate as we read it between the unfolding disaster with your family memories of meeting, your husband, of having your children over two decades.

And I wonder what was it like to revisit you? it all that time? I was hard, hard but cathartic. So initially I just wrote it for myself to get the grief out, you know, to journal like every good

therapist advises you to journal, right? So I needed to take my own advice. So I journaled and, you know, sometimes I dictated into my phone while walking just to get it off my chest and

but the real difficult part was the editing. Because at some point, then, you know, people told me, like, you should, you should publish it. And then I was very hesitant initially. But that editing for other people, like, with the thought in mind that other people would read it, that was very difficult. It's very exposing.

Yeah, it's very exposing. Yeah. I couldn't put it down. I kept reading it and I kept kind of going back. I read it very quickly. And the 96 hours, I think we should probably explain to people. That was the four days. Well, they had 96 hour of oxygen.

Yeah, exactly. That is why it's particularly poignant as you count down those hours. Can I go back to the decision to take this trip? I understand it was meant to be you and Shazade that was going to go on the sub originally. Tell me a little bit about the germination of that idea. Well, I found the ad on social media, and first I thought it's fake because it sounded a little bit too fantastical. So Suleiman was too young at that point. They wouldn't take passages under 18.

And because of COVID, we had to basically push it further. and at some point he turned 18 and then over dinner one day he just said like he won't like to go and you were you were happy enough with that I was yeah because he loved doing things with his dad he also would he went to Africa alone with his father and so they they loved doing things together like they were very close and for those that weren't following it You were from with Shazade, a very wealthy family. The seats were 500,000, I believe, for the two seats. And, of course, there was a lot of interest in it,

perhaps for some of those reasons as well. But let us turn to, before the dive, you were on the boat. And you talk about this in the book, going on the polar prince with Suleiman, your son, and Shazada, your husband, also your daughter. What was the feeling like when you arrived? weird because that ship had zero luxury. You would expect a little bit of comfort after shilling out.

It certainly wasn't a cruise ship. So it's a working ship or it was a working ship. It used to be an icebreaker. There were bunk beds. I haven't slept in bunk beds since I was in university. And yeah, it was rusty. It was rustic. And it was just, yeah.

But you didn't have any safety concerns, I don't think, reading the book at that point. No, no. No. No. Tell me a little bit about your husband and your son, their personalities. My son, yeah, Suleman was a way loving and very caring and very caring. person and he was a regular teenager with his aspirations and was definitely a family and extrovert,

a family person and, you know, loving, talking to people. And he just loved organizing things. So he was also involved in the organization of the trip because, you know, I used to organize everything, but then I don't know, like, if I'm not. he was like turning 15 or something, he started helping me because he got like really excited, you know, wherever we go, he would like be, okay, I want to see this and we have to organize that. So an adventurous spirit. Yes, definitely.

I mean, and he was, he was also good in organizing stuff. I mean, he would like research, you know, we would like decide, okay, this is where we're going. And then he would research what he would like to see and what would be good. So it was quite helpful in that way. And I took from the book that Chazade was definitely a traveller in the sense, wanted to experience everything in life. He did, he did. From when you really first met him when you were a teenager?

Yes, he was a traveller, a seasoned traveller with his family. He travelled since he was born, really. Yeah. So they went down. You had a last look, which, I mean, excitement at that point that they were heading off? Apprehension? I don't know. Yeah, a bit of all of that.

I mean, it's just, it was such a big deal, actually, to go down there, to dive. And also, we were used to do everything as a family together, as in like it used to be always the four of us. So not being with them on that zodiac felt a bit off because we should always be together. It was more like that feeling that, look at those two. They are like, they're going off and leaving us behind and well. On the rusty bunk bed. Yes. So you're waiting and obviously this excitement and you know they're going to,

or you're hoping they're going to see this marvellous once in a lifetime experience of seeing the Titanic wreck. But when did you begin to worry? Well, starting like the sense of worry started when we, when I heard that they lost communication. Of course. But then everybody assured me that this is not unusual. And so I could basically suppress my worry because everybody was just so positive and so

convinced that they said it had happened before many times, that they lost communication. So everybody, the whole sense on the ship was that they are just stuck somewhere. And so for a few days, even like, I have. I believe that they're just stuck somewhere. But I felt it was pivotal when you first heard the word missing. That's what I'm saying. Like I was worried and it hit me. Like that word is kind of, you know, yeah, it hits you.

Yeah. It really does. Yeah. And I can see now you're even thinking back to that time, which must be very difficult. You're reliving these events, I'm sure, as you talk about this book as well. well. And it was a clock ticking against time as you thought of it at that moment. You thought

that they may have a number of days. Well, everybody knew that these are just, there's a finite amount of oxygen in that capsule. You're on this boat. Your daughter is there. But you have to stay calm in a way. What did you lean on to do that? I guess it comes also from my training that I'm trained to stay calm in crisis situations. So that was the first part. But also the whole environment on the ship because these are all seasoned sea people, seammen, just people who are used to the ocean, which is unpredictable. in the best of times.

So the majority of the people knew how to interact with a crisis. So they were all trained in one way of the other. Some were divers, some from other professions where you just learn how to focus in a crisis. And I think when that whole energy on the ship is like that, then you feel like caught, as in like you feel secure. you're in your bubble because everybody is trying to support each other. Yes. And therefore, so there was nobody,

or at least I didn't see somebody who was panicking or like, you know. But you do talk about breathing, which of course often can be a way to help us regulate. But you worried about them not being able to breathe or or having a lack of oxygen below, which was very poignant, I thought, as I read it. you did find out then that there was debris that it looked like they

and the time had passed as well so they were not going to survive this disaster and you had to tell your family what happened well I think at that point they all was it a realisation like a slow realisation because we were in touch like

almost on a minute to minute basis I think it didn't come as a surprise to anybody. It's still a shock, but just because you know something is coming doesn't mean it doesn't shock you, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. The actual reality is a different picture. And you talk about, you know,

the kindness of strangers that perhaps were on the boat, like small gestures. But you were also warned about the media and public reaction to the incident and some of this was directed at your family's wealth and privilege

there was this fascination with your wealth how did you deal with that because you're grieving and there is this spotlight on you once you come ashore well it added not just one

but many many layers of complexity to the whole grieving because my grief wasn't private yes so if they would have passed in a different accident. The outcome would have been the same,

but we would have needed to deal with a lot less scrutiny with a lot less, I don't know, as you call it, spotlight. And that was quite unpleasant. Yes, yeah. And it was, I suppose, such a headline-grabbing accident as well, that there was huge interest all around. the world. There was also an 18-month investigation. The official report into the tragedy concluded. I had reporters standing in front of my house for weeks. Which makes you a prisoner in your own home.

Well, we didn't go home. We went somewhere else just to stay out of that. But they would still wait in front of my house. And it's a huge invasion of privacy. I'm certainly not a person of public interest, but, you know, it's just... But you became one. Yeah. It's just... Do you understand it now at all with hindsight, which I'll come to in a moment, but...

Understand why there was interest, or... No, it'd come to an understanding, I suppose, of what you went through, of what that was. Well, so we work together as a family, and that... I mean, without the family, you know, I couldn't have done anything. So we were just, so we were in crisis mode. And the family, we were in crisis mode.

And just things needed to be done. And everybody had like almost an unspoken role. Who is doing what? Who is looking after what? And we also had professional help to deal with that. And but it took a lot of people. So it was not just me. It was we had not just one, but many teams to help us,

many professional people that just stood by us and really helped us to navigate that because... You can't do it alone. But as that's going on, which is really, I think, important for our listeners to hear, that's what you were under this glare. There was the investigation, the 18-month investigation, and the report, as I alluded to at the beginning, into the tragedy concluded it was preventable

and caused by inadequate engineering and testing. What did that judgment mean to you? I think I mentioned that before, but the main investigator from the US Coast Guard also called me privately and he said that whatever they found that I could have not known. And yes, it was preventable.

but I couldn't have known that. No, you couldn't have known that. So, but, so yes, it was preventable, but it wasn't that I could have prevented it. Yes. It wasn't that I could have known not to go on it. And so there's a, for me, that was a very important distinction,

that it was preventable from Ocean Gate side, but not from the private people who went on it. Yeah, and Ocean Gate was. the company that was running the Titan sub. And just to elaborate on that piece of advice that the investigators gave you that you considered it the best piece,

hindsight won't help you. Don't fall into that trap. Just because you know it now, you didn't know it before. Yes. She was an incredible woman. Isn't it interesting that there's one person

that can make such a difference? I made a huge difference. But at that point, didn't even know what she said. It was just so, you know, you have people who do that on a regular basis. I mean, it's their profession. They have seen many tragedies and many accidents. And so an advice from somebody who has seen these things before, it's, yeah, it resonates

differently. And with the judgment, that was individually, that investigator speaking to you, but that judgment that came down after the investigation, did that bring you any kind of peace? I mean, at that point I think I, well, I knew what happened and the forces at under 3,000 meters of water are just very high. So, you know, basic physics.

tells you that there is no chance of survival. But also in the fact that it was preventable. With this, what would you like people to know? What do you want people to take away from 96 hours? And it is possible to move forward. You're moving forward? You're doing a lot in really for a legacy for your husband.

been in son. Yeah, I'm trying to create new identity, create new meaning with a healing center. And yeah, I think that's very important to find a new identity because I'm no longer Solomon's. Well, that's the thing. I am. I am Solomon's mother, right? And that will never change. but I am Shazada's widow, right? And it's, so I am still the same person, but yet I'm not. And I think that crisis of identity is something very real during grief. But if you find something that makes it worthwhile to move forward, like a new identity and purpose, perpetrator's driven identity, you can move forward.

which you are doing in both of their names. Christine, thank you so much for coming in. I want to let people know that 96 hours is published on the 12th of May. And if you have been affected by anything you've heard in this discussion, you can go to BBC Action Line where you will find links to support. Thank you so much for all your messages coming in, a lot on wildlife. Yvonne says I also run a hedgehog rescue from my back garden. Here's another. Kathy in Runcorn. She says last year, it's all about the hedgehogs.

I found a hedgehog in the garden. We named her Peggy. Two days later, she had four babies. Her babies eventually toddled off into the big wide world, but Peggy stayed. She has lived and hibernated in the garden and now spends nice foraging and feeding in our feeding station. Here's another. Sophie says, David Attenborough has been my daughter, Emily's inspiration since she was young. Having studied wildlife conservation at university, she volunteered at a primate rescue center, in Belize and now is a manager at the centre caring for primates on their journey back into the wild. Her most treasured possession is a letter from David Attenborough, which brings me to our next item because Sir David Attenborough will be 100 on Friday. And the BBC has launched a week-long celebration of his work and legacy.

So we're taking a moment to think about women that are working in this industry alongside him and to ask how things have changed. for women over the past century. Sophie Darlington has worked on some of his most iconic natural history documentaries, Planet Earth, Our Planet 2. That's both with Sir David Attenborough, also The Hunt, dynasties, queens and African cats. She was one of the first female wildlife cinematographers. Her work is earned her a BAFTA and an Emmy.

She was the first dedicated wildlife cinematographer to be invited into the American society of cinematographers. I'm very happy to have Sophie with us this morning. So you have met Sir David many times, I understand, Sophie, and welcome. What was your experience? Oh, listen, thank you for having me on. I've only ever met. I've worked with him over virtually for many, many years, Nula, but I have never,

I've only ever met him socially. And I'm going to say he's, he is one of the best fun people to hang out with. He is, he has a twinkle. He is, you think he knows about wildlife. He knows as much about art. about music. He is such a polymath, but it's his his naughtiness, which I kind of love. He's a bit bold. I remember sitting next to him and

someone asked him if he'd like some water and he just went, oh, no, dear, no, no, no, no, you know what fish have done in that. He is an absolute, he's a legend, you know? And I understand, because we need to be up front here, that he was very complimentary about your work. Tell me what he said and don't hold back. I had a moment many years ago. I had my son and when he was eight, I went back to filming. And it was a very long drawn out process, but there was a screening of the end of this show,

African cats, and I had filmed much of the cheetah footage. And it was my first time ever meeting Sir David. And I was very nervous. He's all our heroes, right? So it's like, you don't want to meet your heroes, do you? So there I am. I politely introduced myself. And I go away, we watch the film. And then after I get a beckoned over from the director, Kiskoly, to come and meet Sir David properly. And he says to me, that was the most beautiful cheetah footage he'd ever seen. And I was like, okay, that's it. And my son who was, had lost me for a bit because I was away working, he was like, okay, mum, well, that's pretty cool. We'll go with that. So it is the world that you're in, the natural world that you're in.

a very male-dominated industry. I'd be curious how you've seen that change, perhaps even what you have been called. Ah, yes, interesting. I've been doing this for over 35 years, and when I started, there were just a handful of women in this industry. There was nobody, there was no see-her to be her, you know? I actually don't know what I've been called.

I'm six-foot, Nula. I don't think they'd have the guts to tell me to my... Well, I heard you were called a camera. Oh, no. Well, that was just going to a wildlife film festival and I went to get my badge. I'd be nominated for cinematography. It was an amazing moment and I went to get my badge and they didn't have any that said camera women. They only had a badge that said cameraman. And that sort of speaks for itself, doesn't it? There has been change. Not enough, but the change is sort of slowly coming. Queens was a great example of that about female leadership in nature where we kind of gathered to

It was a female-led production, and we mentored young women, young camera women, young producers. So the change is coming. Not there yet. I mean, what would you say to young women? You know, we had that lovely story from one of our listeners there about Sir David being an icon for her daughter and led her to volunteer and now work with primates. But what advice would you give to young women who are considering a career? because it's vast. It is.

But perhaps there's some areas, I don't know, that are more welcoming. There's room for stories. And it doesn't matter if you're a man, woman, whatever you identify as, we have room in the natural world for stories right now. And we need to tell these stories. And I think what's amazing is David is, so David is 100 on Friday.

And he has inspired, like that woman, her, Sophie, who was inspired by him as a little girl and my mum who was telling me about him on Monday. You know, we have, there's very few people who cross all those generations. And my advice would be, if you've got a story, tell it. We've got all the tools out there right now in order to tell it, you know?

I was enjoying your story that you talked about. You took a bit of time off and then you came back. How was that to navigate motherhood along with a career that will take you, hopefully, to far-flung places? It was incredibly tricky, if I'm honest. I think I had sort of imagined I'd get straight back into filming, but it took me eight years, Nula, and it was a very, very tough decision. And it was one that people have questioned.

They've sort of said, you know, how was it leaving your child? And I wonder how many men. And I think. And I think that it was, by the way, the hardest thing I've ever done. And I don't think there's enough support for women as freelancers coming back into their trades after having children. I don't know how to make it better, but I know it needs to be addressed. You know, it's interesting because you're reminding me of listening to Sir David. And he did speak with regret about the months, like he says, he might go away for three or four months.

but in a five-year-old's life, that can be a long time as he was looking back on his life and talking about his children. Yeah, I think that's really perceptive, and that's the thing about Sir David. He notices. That's why he's been such an extraordinary broadcaster and person in all our lives,

because he pays attention and he notices. I think I first saw him in the late 70s for a life on earth. You know, that amazing 13, one hours. And it changed something. something in me, you know, seeing this wildlife on telly. And we had to wait, didn't we? Every week we'd have to wait. There was no streaming. As a result, I spent my 21st birthday trying to find guerrillas in Rwanda as opposed to having a party back in Dublin. So there you go. The party in Dublin will always be there for you, as you know. Before I let you go, how did you

get into it? I got into it through following a gut instinct. I saw a picture of a tree. I was very much trying to do loads of different jobs that I hated. And there was something in this tree. It was a big fig tree in Tanzania. And I just went, I've got to see it. And when I was out there, I met a BBC film crew. And there was that light bulb moment. It was one of Attenborough's crews. And I thought, I want that job. It took me five years to get that job and a lot of hard work. But yeah, it wasn't a normal straight line in. Yeah, I often think it takes about five years to get that. Your first. Your feet under the table, shall we say.

It's been lovely speaking to you, Sophie. We shall all enjoy. Sir David Attenborough's 100th birthday by revisiting indeed many of the programmes. There are being this David Attenborough series is on Eye Player now. Programs have been broadcast all this week in the run-up to his 100th birthday on Friday. But I want to thank Sophie Darlington for joining us

and sharing some of her memories as well. Thanks also to you for getting in touch. Right, here's Paul. He says, I have untidied my small garden by the river over a period of years. It is wild plants, rotting wood, leaf piles, etc. It's now an oasis of life and food webs with damselflies, butterflies, other insects and also birds and field mice. It sits between my neighbours' gravel decked and neat and tidy gardens. My neighbours say they love it, but they don't do likewise. And I wonder why. Tidying is the enemy of wildlife. Oh, we should be. put that on a t-shirt. Right.

I've just been knocked for my microphone, forgive me. Let me move on. Maybe that noise, actually, maybe my next guest could actually incorporate that noise

that I've just made into their music. What do you get if you crack ice, bounce a ping pong ball and incorporate a few discarded firing targets?

Why not add in an array of whistles from Christmas crackers and why not? A rack of mackano spanners. Well, if you do, you get cog.

an experimental electronic duo with Selena Kay and Kerris Hogg who find inspiration in all of the above. They are both formally trained. Selina has a roots in classical contemporary composition. Kerris in jazz improvisation and art, they've performed at festivals including Aldeberg, the Moth Club in London,

internationally, the Radar Festival that was in Bulgaria. And they have a debut album, Mechanista, which will be released on the 22nd of May. Welcome to you. both. Thank you. Both formally trained.

So I'm just wondering then when did your hands and eyes begin to slip over to, I don't know, some homemade instruments, for example. Who wants to take that one? Kerris or Selena? Well, maybe me. Kerris, off you go. Yeah, I've always sort of made things. I was always hanging out in my dad's garage and messing about with bits of wood and spanners and

hammers and it seems like the right thing to do to sort of incorporate them, yeah. also I've got a background in fine art So it's sort of for me It's bringing my art and music together Because I've always done both of them And it's great Because we get all these interesting sounds And then you know

We manipulate them and And you are jazz improvisation Or improvisation in general I have to say must lend itself to this Absolutely I mean I think we have different approaches really But Selina your approach Yeah well I mean

my approach was always as a sort of score-based composer, but I'm sort of really interested in also using software to improvise with all the kind of devices and knobs. So we've often, like, recorded a sound and then expand it into a new sound palette. And we just start messing around with things and turning them inside out and upside down. I love the term sound palette, I have to say.

And I did when I first started listening. Did you ever see Kate Bush when she is first experimenting and she's got a keyboard? You know, with the various sounds, and it's babushka, I think. You know, like the breaking glass and whatnot. So let us take a moment for Mechanista. This is the title track of your forthcoming debut album. I'm thinking I should have set a challenge for my listeners to try and figure out what was used in that track. Six Music said it couldn't be more perfect.

Tell me a little. So actually all of that percussive stuff is from some spanners that we recorded. But what are you doing? Like tell me, I've got a spanner. I've got a spanner in each hand. What am I doing? You probably want to suspend them. We suspend them on fishing wise.

Okay, we're getting somewhere. Then? Then, well, we sample the sound. By hitting them with something? Yeah, by hitting it and recording it. But hitting it with what? you know a hard stick a soft stick to get different sounds and then we basically manipulate that sample

so it might be really reverberance it might be really short and actually in that track those sort of huge chords you hear at the beginning is like loads of those spanners like really dense so we take a sound like that record it and then turn it into this software instrument which we can play in all sorts of ways can play it on a keyboard or on drum pads and then...

Keyboard. I was reading that when you look at a keyboard, for example, you think what might happen if I play it upside down back to front? Yeah. Yeah, well, that's us deliberately. You know, we both kind of know a fair bit about, you know, how music works and we actually both teach music. But we like to ignore all those rules, really, deliberately.

So we do turn instruments upside down, you know, just because it gives us something interesting, unpredictable, so we like to use systems like that a little bit. You have an instrument with you, which I'm just leaning over my screen to have a look at. Okay, you need to describe that for our listeners, Keras. All right. I've got an instrument here, which is very colourful. It's called Voyager, which is a very grand name for a very low-fi instrument. And it's these little whistles.

Selina got them in Christmas crackers one year. So, you know, nice. Hey, another little bit there. I will do. I've teamed them with some silicon straws and these cameras. lens blowers. So it's like a little kind of organ in a way. Camera lens blowers would remind you of little bicycle bells. Yeah. Yeah. That you might have that are like, yeah, exactly, bicycle horn, exactly.

Air pumps. Little air pumps. Another little bit before we actually go. I think you might hear a bit of this. Yeah, we will in a minute. Okay. Kerris is doing that with her fists beating up and down. Let us listen to a clip from the album using said instrument, The Voyager. I think it's quite hypnotic, Selena. Yeah, some of our music's hypnotic and some of it's quite crazy, yeah. How did you meet each other?

Well, we actually met on a music tech course, I don't know, probably how many, 20 years ago or something. At a college where we both work for the city lit, yeah. We both teach music there. And we just started hanging out, became friends, we started talking about music. And I think the fact that we're from like different side of the tracks, musically with Kerris with her jazz background and my classical background, it's often a case that never the twain shall meet because these are actually really different musical disciplines.

But we talked about all sorts of aspects of the music and we also talked about experimental things. We wanted to explore using probability and randomness and new sounds we could create. And we just found that we had common interest. and things that we wanted to explore. So off we went to explore. And one thing led to another really,

and then we found we'd created some tracks and we thought... There's a couple of things. You were commissioned to create a 45-minute work for the Alderberg Festival performed in June of 2022 with the Ligiti Quartet, Ligetti, actually, quartet.

It was a multimedia work called Balastika. Some elastic in there? Yes. There was some elastic in there. Yeah, so the name of it's kind of a play on words between Bartok, Bella Bartok and Elastic bands. And I want to turn to another one before I let you go,

which was a grant you received from the PRS Foundation's Women Make Music that will go towards a collaboration with a brass section. So what do you expect with that, Karras? Well, quite a lot of our tracks have, because Selena plays trombone, so we've multi-layered brass, but we've never been up to perform these tracks live. So this is great that we can actually... So what's your thinking?

Bring me into, I suppose, how you're conceptualising it at this point? Well, often it's the case that we make music and then after the event we have to figure out how to play it. We sort of have to retranscribe it, but we don't start with it written out or

anything like that. It's kind of a backwards process isn't it really? A bit, yeah. So we've had to kind of make an arrangement of the stuff that I played, you know, multi-layered. We've arranged it for these fantastic brass players who are joining us which is Sean Gerell Tom Dunnett, Richard Foote and James Wade Syrodd.

And so it's going to be really theatrical as well, having a brass ensemble. And how does it feel to have a debut album? It's fantastic. I mean, we've been working on it for a fair few, how long, a few years. A few years. You know, we're women in our prime, let's say that. And we've been really, really blessed to have the support of non-class. who are putting our album out.

And, you know, they're just this amazing organisation that Champion are really thriving, but severely underfunded new music scene. You know, they create this platform for all this amazing music and amazing musicians. Well, we wish you all the best. I have to say, listening to Voyager there, I felt it kind of intersected with our previous item

as we're talking about the natural world. You know what I mean? The little whistles and whatnot kind of brings us out there, lots of people. getting in touch about what they're doing for their conservation projects as well. Cog duo, Celina K. Keras hog, yeah, get the names, cog. And their debut album, as we mentioned, Mechanista, is out on the 22nd of May. Thank you both so much for coming in.

Right, some of you getting in touch. Helen, I'm doing a barn conversion and have used special bat blocks, which are the same measurements as a concrete block and built into the walls. Within two years, bat started using these blocks. I wish this was compulsory in-house building. Another, I have a small wildflower meadow which gives me great joy. Watching it develop and grow each year is fascinating.

Last year I added a bee hotel and joined the Buzz Club, a citizen science group run by Sussex University. And one more, why not? With the permission of my local council, I've roped off a bit of the grass verge near my house. The council no longer mowed this area, and I've permission to maintain this as a wildlife area.

I have native trees, wildflowers, I've created habitats for insects and newts, lots of little watering stations, bird boxes, a hedgehog hotel, lots of hotels and a hedgehog highway. Thank you so much for all of that. Right. Tomorrow I'm going to be speaking to Holly Walsh about her latest series, Amanda Land. Also, we'll take a look at the plight of Greenlandic women. And I'll be speaking to Alona Barrister about her novel five. Join me then.

That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time. If you've got a scrolling problem, then this is the podcast for you. It's called Top Comment with me, Matt Shea. And me, Mariana Spring. We both investigate social media for a living. Whether it's disinformation, conspiracy theories, internet culture, memes. We're going to be getting behind the stuff that is popping up on your feed on this podcast. That's Top Comment on BBC Sounds.