Woman's Hour - 06/10/2025

Episode Date: October 6, 2025

Women's voices and women's lives - topical conversations to inform, challenge and inspire.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. A new season of Love Me is here. Real stories of real, complicated relationships. It's not even like a gender. I mean, it's wrapped up in gender, but it's just a really deep self-hate. I think I cried almost every day. I just stole myself on the floor. He's coming on really straight.

It's like he's trying to date you all of a sudden. Yeah. And I do look like. my mother. Love me. Available now wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Nula McGovern and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. While you're here, I wanted to let you know about the Woman's Hour Guide to Life, your toolkit for the juggle, the struggle and everything in between. Life is complicated and often incredibly busy. So whether you're fixing a problem at one of life's crossroads or just looking to shake things up

bit, this is the guide you'll need to help you survive and even thrive. Each episode brings together world-class experts with women sharing their honest, powerful stories, offering real insight and also practical tips that really work. From work and career to relationships and family issues, the focus is on helping you grow, also adapt and overcome life's curve walls. It's your companion, your life coach, it's your Woman's Hour Guide to Life. Join us only on BBC Sounds, but now back to today's Woman's Hour. Hello and welcome. Well, we have a lot to discuss about women and change this hour. As you will have seen, Dame Sarah Mulally was named the first woman Archbishop of Canterbury in the Church of England's almost 500-year history.

Her appointment came after Justin Welby resigned over his failure to report a prolific child abuser. Well, will a woman as spiritual leader of the church and the worldwide Anglican Communion make a difference to you and your life? Also, do you think it will make a difference to the church? You can text the program this morning. The number is 84844 on social media or at BBC Woman's Hour and you can email us through our website.

For a WhatsApp message or a voice note, that number is 0-3-700-100-444. Also, one of the most read articles on the BBC website at the moment is by EastEnders actor Kelly Bright on the challenges of being a send parent. Do stay with us to hear Kelly talk about how she's trying to change and improve the situation for parents like her and their children.

Also, after a tremendous summer, we have Sue Day, director of women's football at the FA and Stephanie Hilborn, CEO of the charity Women in Sport. We're going to hear how they're working to change perceptions about women and girls in sport and what that all looks like.

And we will hear. how the floods in the Punjab province of Pakistan are affecting pregnant women, all coming up this hour. But let me begin. As I was mentioning there, Friday, a momentous time for the Church of England as the role of Archbishop of Canterbury was given to a woman for the first time

taken over from Justin Welby. The Church of England, which some people call the Mother Church, because it was the first Anglican Church, is broadly considered to have moved in a more liberal direction than some churches elsewhere, not least in Africa, where it's estimated that two-thirds of Anglicans live. I'm joined by the Bishop of Derby, the right Reverend Libby Lane, the first woman to become a bishop in 2015,

and Sally Hitchiner, rector of North Lambut, here in London, not too far away at all. Lambeth Palace is her parish, so she is now, you are now, as she sits across from me, the Archbishop's parish priest and has worked for Dame Sarah for the whole time. She's been the Bishop of London in various roles. Well, welcome to you both. I suppose let me start with you, Sally. Did you think in your lifetime we would have a female Archbishop of Canterbury? You know, I was talking to the little girls in my church yesterday

and tried to tell them that when I was their age, it wasn't possible to even have women priests. And they couldn't believe it. This idea that within my lifetime, I've gone from being a child where it wasn't possible to be a woman priest to getting ordained myself in my 20s. And now we have a female Archbishop of Canterbury. And it's just wonderful.

It makes so much difference. I was saying to them, you can be Archbishop of Canterbury now. And they said, no, I want to be a doctor or a lawyer or a footballer or whatever. But I said you can. And that makes all the difference to little girls to not be told you can't do something. And let me pass this over to the Bishop of Darby. Good to have you with us.

Your thoughts on this matter. Thank you. It's really good to be with you this morning. I couldn't agree more with Sally. it is such an occasion of hope for girls and women in England, across the UK. And in fact, as you've mentioned, I think across the whole globe, there are women and men across the whole world who are rejoicing that Sarah's appointment gives them hope, both in their life in the church,

but actually in the wider world as well, that women need not be. constrained from opportunity or ambition. And of course, I'm just noting it is 10 years since you became a bishop. Did you think you would see that change? It seems to be one of the themes of our programme today, but in that decade when you took that role. It was a remarkable privilege to be the first to step through that door. And I can't tell you how pleased I am that it appears that I step through,

that door in such a way that just 10 years later, Sarah is nominated to be our next archbishop. There are more than 40 women who have followed through that door after me to be consecrated bishop in the Church of England and many dozens, dozens more across the globe who exercised the ministry of bishops in the Anglican Communion. But in just 10 years, particularly given the pace at which the church usually manages to integrate and embrace change, I rejoiced to hear Sarah's appointment. Because it's 500 years almost, as I was mentioning, if we talk about the history. But you know, you mentioned the international aspect there.

And I want to get into some of the words that may have given you pause. There are some within the Church of England who oppose women being priests and bishops, and I'll come to that in a moment. But in addition, the global fellowship of confessing Anglicans, this is Gafcon, it's a network of conservative Anglican churches across Africa and Asia. They say they received the news with sorrow. And I thought sorrow, that is such a painful and crushing term. Sally.

Yeah, it is very sad that that is there. I think one of the things, Bishop Sarah has been very clear on those. She wants to be a shepherd for all. She sees herself as someone who is there to offer care. And I think what you really see is her drawing her vocation as a nurse. She was chief nurse of the UK where nurses are there to care for whoever comes through the door. And she is there to care for the entire church, in fact, the entire nation, I think. And I think that's a very important part of her role.

Whatever people think about her of her appointment, she just has a calling from God to care for them. But let me turn to you, Bishop Lubby, because Mulali's support for same-sex marriage blessings, for example, according to Gaffcon, makes her as a new Archbishop of Canterbury impossible as a focus of unity. How does she begin to try and penetrate that when it feels very definitive? We were aware of these tensions and complexities across the Anglican Communion

before Sarah's name was announced for us. She understands the space that she is stepping into. And as Sally was saying, has been committed to inhabiting that space with a quiet strength, but with a really gritty grace. One of the things that Sarah brings with her from across her whole life experience is that grace-filled persistence. And she believes herself and the church has recognised. in her, a calling to inhabit this space that we know is painful and complex, but also as she repeated again and again, full of hope because it is Christ that leads us on. But do you think that she can actually change hearts and minds, Bishop?

I think hearts and minds can be changed because God is at work. So I always believe. that things can be changed for the better. But hope, as Sarah says, doesn't try and gloss over pain or division or grief, but inhabits it and travels in it with those who are feeling those things. And Sarah is committed to that persistent, graceful travelling with those who are feeling pain at her appointment. Yes, because, I mean, there will be pain. also with those closer to home. I mean, the Church of England is not all rejoicing,

as my guest may be this morning, about Sarah Mulally being named as the next Archbishop of Canterbury. How can she handle that? Is that a different path, Sally, to the more international church? Well, I look back to when we first had women priests and bearing mind it only just got through

by a couple of votes to have women priests all that long time ago. And the first women priests coming through had to really battle to be taken seriously. But there's a lot of work to be done. And I think she'll only be the first Archbishop of female Archbishop of Canterbury for the first 10 minutes. And there's all sorts of challenges facing the, I'm sorry, she will be for the whole time. But what I mean is she'll just be a good Archbishop of Canterbury. She needs to be someone who is facing really tough challenges in the global church, across the UK. There's so

much division in society as a whole. And I think what Sarah strikes me as being is someone who's passionate about doing a good job, not just about being a woman in that role. So you feel, and she hasn't referred to it that explicitly. Well, I also think we just, there's work to be done. And being a woman is not the central part of it? Well, I think being a woman is a huge advantage in many ways. I'm enjoying being a woman myself.

But I think there is, there's so much work to be done that actually that should be the focus, that actually there's so much important thing about being God's love in our communities tackling some of the challenging areas that the church globally and nationally are facing and for society as a whole

I think being someone who can speak powerfully into that I think that's most important rather than her gender. I mean why she has been named at this point it follows of course her predecessor Justin Welby who resigned due to safeguarding issues

and as I mentioned at the beginning an abuse within the church that is a major issue and led to that fractured situation. Do we know how she plans to tackle that? I wonder if Bishop Libby has more insight than I do on this. Yes. She did reference that herself very explicitly in her address when she was announced last week and to recognise that our history of safeguarding failures have left a legacy of deep harm and mistrust.

And she recommitted herself to ensuring that we continue to listen to survivors and care for the vulnerable and to foster a culture of safety and well-being for all. What I do know about, Sarah, is that she takes that herself very seriously, but perhaps even more than that, she recognises that this is not something

that will happen in a transformative, way unless each of us takes our own responsibility for that really seriously, regardless of our role in church and society, that safeguarding is everybody's business, not just the archbishops. I mean, we've touched on some of the issues that will be one. The fractures within the church as we talked as another. I know she's a vociferous opponent of assisted dying. Also, it's interesting you use that word vulnerable Bishop Libby because that's when she uses, she feels opposes a risk

to the most vulnerable people in society. So that, of course, discussion continues as a very contentious issue. But I'd like to hear from both of you what she's like as a person.

Bishop Libby, you're smiling. I am smiling because as well as admiring her greatly, I do really like her. She was consecrated bishop just a few months after I was in 2015. And we have travelled this last decade together. And I really appreciate her humour and her kindness and her wisdom.

She's good company as well as being a really effective Christian leader. Sally. She reminds me, and this is a very personal take, she reminds me a little bit of the late Queen in that she's slightly reserved and calm, but she has the best laugh. There's nothing like making her laugh. There was one moment where I was running, I was preparing some people for confirmation. And we had some people in my congregation. I had learning disabilities, so I was practicing with them. And I was sitting in the bishop's chair, which is quite a dangerous thing to do. And I just got the first person forward to practice and I've just put my hands on his head. And I looked up and saw Bishop Sarah had snuck in. And she stood in the corner and she just looked at her watch and said, do you need me? I can just go if you don't want me here. And she just was giggling away. And there's something fabulous about her.

She's got a very wry sense of humour. And I think that will really serve her well in such a responsible role. It sounds from the descriptions you've both given a lightness of touch, even when taking on something so significant and important. And compassion. I think compassion is really key to her. Yeah, I think she has a really profound humility that comes from an honest sense of herself and knowing herself, beloved of God, and through that, able to know her place among other people. And she doesn't take herself too seriously.

She will take this role deeply seriously, but she doesn't take herself too seriously. Lovely speaking to both of you. thank you so much and Sarah Malali will be officially confirmed in the role in January following by an enthronement service

but I want to thank the Bishop of Derby, the Wright Reverend Libby Lane and Sally Hitchiner rector of North Lambett who becomes the parish priest for Dame Sarah in the coming months.

Now, EastEnders actor Kelly Bright took part in a Woman's Hour special programme last year which asked whether the education system is working for children with special educational needs and disabilities. Kelly now has a special one-hour panorama documentary.

It's called Autism, Schools and Families on the Edge. She draws on her experience as a mother of an autistic son and within the Send system, and she investigates how parents navigate that complex system to secure the right help at school. She follows three families as they apply for an education, health and care plan, that's an EHCP. It's a vital document.

that determines what supported child receives and also the school that they can attend. When Kelly came into the studio, I started by asking her what it meant to take part in the Woman's Hour Send program. It meant an awful lot because I knew it would have really big reach. I was kind of astounded by how big that reach was. And every time I speak publicly

about my own experience around being a SEM parent, why I do this is because I want things to be better for families, better for the children involved, better for teachers, better for everybody, really. And each time I do something, I feel like we're just kind of, I don't know, it's like writing about it in bold letters and then you write it a bit bigger and you write it a bit bigger.

And I was very grateful to Karen, who essentially turned it into that. Who is our editor, G.L. Yes. Who turned it into that incredible panel. show. It was live audience. A live audience. You know, it was big. It was a big thing. We had the Minister for Schools there

at the time. And so she made it this really important, loud episode of Woman's Hour. And I suppose what it did do was it reinforced what I believed, which was

that I had to keep talking about it, had to keep shining a light on it and actually from that and the feedback I got personally from that episode was to keep pushing forward and try and get a documentary made because that's what I had always wanted to do. So you feel it had that impact? Yeah, I do. I do. And actually so many people, even now, I know it was a year ago, but people talk to me about that episode all the time. And I'm very aware whenever I talk

that I'm talking for lots of other parents in a similar situation. And I know that my goodness me send covers such a huge different different different differences and yes so many so many and I can only really talk about my perspective on that my own my own experience but I think you have wider experience than that now Kelly I think it would be fair to say I watched your panorama documentary you spoke to parents particularly following three families but others as well whose children had been out of school for long periods of time and you know you've heard their concerns. How would you describe them to the listener? Oh my goodness me. They're so wonderful. And I'm very grateful to them for being part of this film, for being so open.

Literally opening their doors and showing you how difficult it is inside the house. It is so, the documentary would not have happened without them. Okay. So that's how important and integral they are. We followed three children who all actually have an autistic diagnosis. It's Etta, Buddy and Karis. That's right. And they are completely different young people, as they would be. But that, again, I think is very important to show that you may all share the same sort of diagnostic name, if you like, but your needs can be very different. What you need from an education environment could be very different.

But their input is invaluable. I expect that it will be watched by families within the Send community. I would hope it will be, but I also hope it will be watched by a much wider audience because for me, I suppose what that does is it helps families who aren't living with this day to day or this kind of fight to get their child into a school or the right school or get the right support. It will give them an understanding of what that is like. And equally it will, I hope, highlight and show to the people that make all the decisions about how support is given.

It just shows how it's not working, essentially. Do you think anything's changed in the past year in terms of support for families? Well, what we do know is that change is coming. But not sure what that change is. Not sure what that change is. There are sort of heavy rumours, I suppose, that government want more children educated in mainstream school.

And I think there is a very widespread anxiety and concern about the loss of an EHCP, that that might disappear and parents will be left without a legally binding document. Yes, just to reiterate, it's education, health and care plan, EHCP, that determines the provision that a child should legally receive. That's right. It's a legally binding document between the local authoritative. and your school essentially

and it sets out in writing what your child should be receiving if they, wherever they are actually it applies to children who are in specialist provision it applies to children who are in mainstream schools so it's a very very important document it's what the film is about it's about families who are

in the process at various stages of applying for an EHCP and while we were making the documentary things were kind of being dripped fed into the media about change coming. I actually got to talk to Georgia Gould as part of the documentary, who is the new schools minister. And obviously she did not give away anything that was groundbreaking. She didn't clarify exactly what SEND support is going to look like in the future. But she did talk about that there would still be some kind of legal basis for whatever

a support was provided which I think is really important because I think for a lot of people that's where their anxieties lay that if you have a child like my child who is at mainstream school who has an education and healthcare plan if you have a child that is not getting the support that they should be getting in order to make them be able to be at school basically and learn then where is your power if you don't have a document to support that and actually what she was saying was that that would not be the case. That the legal basis would remain. Yeah.

What we know from the government is that they have refused to rule out the removal of EHCP. So short-hand, we just don't know what they're going to do with it. And also getting the EHCP, it's a huge milestone. But it doesn't mean automatically, it's not a panacea, it doesn't mean automatically your child. is going to get all the services that are written on that EHCP that they are legally due. No, it doesn't.

And I think, I mean, that's something else that the film does, I think, is show you that actually you fight and fight and fight to get this piece of paper. And I remember it was a lady from my local authority, actually, who said to me, you know, it's not a golden ticket. It won't be this that changes your child's life. It will be the people that are in your child's life that will make the biggest difference.

And I have to say at the time, I thought, well, no, no, it's going to be this piece of paper. And actually, she was so right. Because your son's school has been very supportive, but not everything that was promised in his EHCP is being delivered. But you've decided you're winning at the moment in the sense that he's happy. Yes. I mean, I think if you're a send parent, actually, I just think if you're a parent, you just take every day as it comes. And right now, my son is happy to. go to school. He is happy to take part in his lessons. He doesn't get access to the support

that is written in his EHCP. I do know that this is not about the school, not wanting to deliver that. It's about the school not having the funding to deliver that. My son is one of many children with education health care plans in the mainstream school. I do understand that obviously there are levels within that. And if something happened tomorrow, which actually meant that I I felt it was of detriment to him or his mental health, I would 100% be kicking up a fuss about that and taking them to tribunal or whatever it is the parents have to then do.

But I do think that if we are going to look at making mainstream schools offer more support without the need for EHCPs, as is has been suggested, we have to look at how education in mainstream schools is delivered. But you did go to a certain head teacher who was taking a very different approach to send. Everyone should talk to Damien Matthews, in my opinion. And he, where will they find him? He is the head teacher of the Marvell College in Hull. I've actually been in touch with Damien for about a year.

And I asked for him to be part of this documentary because he is one of those extraordinary people who essentially has made big changes to how his school is structured. His school has a much higher average number of free school meals, for example, than the national average. So more deprived. More deprived area. He has lots of vulnerable children at his school, lots of children with Send. And so he has completely, and I don't want to sort of give it away, because you will see in the documentary, but he's completely sort of restructured how the Send department works in his school.

And nothing that he has done has been about funding. And that is why I think he is so brilliant. Because time and time again, we hear, oh, we can't do that because we don't have the money. We can't do that because we don't have the money. And actually, he doesn't have the money either. But equally, what he does talk about, and this is where I think changes need to come in and how we measure school success. For him, success is about having children in school, having a higher attendance record, having children that are achieving more at the end of their school year individually than where they started. he is not competing for a place on the league tables like so many schools are

and he talks about the fact that so many headteachers have this pressure to perform that actually they can't do that and make the changes that he's made. You will have seen the other day lots of headlines talking about a council spending as much as £950 a day to get a single child to school, a child with special needs and to get them transported. to that particular educational establishment. There was hand-wringing, some people debating it. What were you thinking?

Well, what I was thinking was, I mean, somebody asked me yesterday, what would your ideal look like? What would your ideal solution sort of look like? And actually, for me, I would probably design maybe three or four different education systems, like provisions, all at state level. No one has to pay. every county would have plenty of these separate ways of being educated so you would never have to travel a ridiculous amount of time to try and get your child to the right school for them and there would never be a lack of space because children are all different and they all do learn in different ways and some children may need alternative education that involves being outside more that is more based in being in a freer way of learning we funnel children into this system where you're all going towards this one thing, which is GCSEs in this country.

And that one size fits all just doesn't work. It just doesn't work. And then we've got specialist provision at the other end, but we have nothing else. So for me, I would definitely have other things in the grey areas. Different grades. Different grades. Or certainly I would look at mainstream schools and set them up with better inclusive send provision. and different pathways, I understand that children need to have a basic level of numeracy and literacy

in order to get on in the world. I totally appreciate that. But not every child is going to pass that English GCC and maths GCC, which you have to do if you want to do anything further in this country in education. And actually, we could be looking at where those children's other strengths lie and be incorporating that into their education. I actually heard someone on the radio talking about this the other day because I know the government have just made an announcement about getting young people into work, right? And actually, this is all part of the same thing. Education feeds our young people into the workforce. And this is why it's so important. If you have children that are going to come out of school, having failed everything, who feel like

they're not worth anything, that they've always been at the bottom because they just can't do school the way it's set up. Where does that push them to as an adult? What's there for them? So, I don't know. Sometimes I wish I was Prime Minister. Kelly Bright there. Her documentary Autism, School and Families on The Edge will be on iPlayer and BBC One

at 8pm tonight. A Department for Education spokesperson said about the documentary, it says this shines an important light on the heartbreaking experiences faced by too many families forced to battle the broken send system we inherited and fight tooth and nail

for support. We will continue to listen to children, parents and experts at every stage as we develop our plans and we have been clear that there will always be a legal right to additional support ensuring that all children get the outcomes and life chances they deserve. They go on to say we're already taking action to make sure support is available as routine and at the earliest stage including through improved training for teachers, £740 million to create more specialist school places, earlier intervention for speech and language needs and embedding send leads in our best start family hubs in every local area. Somebody getting in touch, Diane, in relation to the appointment of Sarah Mulally,

I'm thrilled and delighted by this appointment, and I say this as a 67-year-old pantheist and ex-Roman Catholic. When the Pope is female, only then will the world have real hope. I'll probably be long gone by the time the patriarchy is replaced by matriarchy across the entire world, but my goodness, this appointment makes me believe it is possible. Now, have you caught up on the woman's hour guide to life yet? It's only on BBC Sounds. Episode two is all about ambition without burnout and also how to chase your goals while protecting your well-being. Now, here's one of the many practical tips. This one's

from Helen Tupper from Squiggly Careers. There's a little clever language hack that you can do here because if you say I can't very often a highly assertive persuasive person can convince you that you can. You might say, well, I can't come to the meeting and they'll say, well, you know, I'll make it shorter and you probably can. Whereas the I don't is a lot harder for somebody else to disagree with and it means that you are more likely to identify with that. Like I don't go to meetings after five on a Wednesday because I go and put my kids up. And then it's much, it's hard. But if you feel like your willpower is weakening or somebody is challenging you and challenging you, I think some care.

or use of the I don't, when you might have been saying I can't, could be a good one thing. Now, you might put that one into practice. To hear more, go to BBC Sounds, search for Woman's Hour. And in the feed, you'll find the Guide to Life episodes. You might need to scroll down a little bit, and you will find it. And I want to let you know we're going to be talking about our money mindset next. And we do want to hear from you. I want to know about your patterns of spending.

What's working for you? What is not? You can get in touch in all the usual ways. 84844. email us through the website at BBC Woman's Hour on social A new season of Love Me is here Real Stories of Real Complicated Relationships

It's not even like a gender I mean it's wrapped up in gender But it's just a really deep self-hate I think I cried almost every day I just stole myself on the floor He's coming on really straight It's like he's trying to date you all of the sudden Yeah

And I do look like my mother. Love me. Available now wherever you get your podcasts. Now, flooding caused by this year's monsoon season in Pakistan has affected the lives of over 4 million people in the country, with 2 million evacuated from the Punjab region. Around 1,000 are reported to have died. Now, even though the rains have subsided, the water has not receded, and the situation remains difficult.

for many people. That includes pregnant women, many of whom can't get access to the health care that they need. BBC World Service Urdu reporter at Tarhub Ushkir has been to the region and joins me now from Lahore in Pakistan. Good to have you with us. What have you seen in the region this monsoon season? A total disaster, devastating scenes and people suffering. So just giving you the context that this year we have received more than, you know, 39% of rains in this monsoon, like the monsoon that we usually, you know, experience in Pakistan. So this year, monsoon was, you know, time was stretched out and more rains were received. And then according to the federal minister for climate change, he said that, you know,

the rising temperature is accelerating glacier melting. that is, you know, that is a phenomenon of a very big phenomena in climate change. And Pakistan is one of the most hit country by the climate change. And they said that, you know, the world has to work proactively against this, what is happening. Because somehow every country is going to, you know, face climate change and experience these kinds of things. So this is the situation we have seen, like, you know, we have seen floods in 2022, and one third of Pakistan was, you know, underwater at that time. And now this year, in 2025, the most populated area was hit by the

flooding. And there are many phenomena that we have experienced this year, like, you know, a sudden cloud burst in a lot of cities are causing urban flooding. there are times that, you know, we have faced more than 500 millimetres of rain in certain few hours because of urban flooding. So it is more extreme, as you say, even though people are used to and generally preparing for the monsoon season. And I know you've been also speaking to pregnant women and the difficulty that they have had in getting medical help during this period. You've been reporting on this for almost two months and you've spoken to a lot of women. One of them was Navida Bibi, who was eight months pregnant.

Tell me a little about her. So when I was reporting on ground, I met approximately six women in the radius of one kilometer who were like, you know, eight to nine months pregnant. And when I reached to this lady, she suddenly started bleeding and I was out of, you know, I was in total trauma. that what had happened and she was leading badly and there was no medical help at that moment I felt you know helpless and I was like what could I do because her house was you know surrounded

by floodwater and she couldn't get to she she cannot reach to any medical center in in fact medical center was bit far away from her place because you know she was near to the river belt so somehow, you know, she walked approximately 8 to 900 meters to a dry patch and then they got, you know, a private vehicle and she sat on that and, you know, tried to reach to the medical center. So she was suffering and we have a soundbite from her family member. You can hear, you know, from their family members now. She suddenly started bleeding. There was no way. way to get out and to reach the medical center. There is water all around. She can barely walk

and I was unable to lift her. I screamed that my daughter-in-law is in trouble and she needs help otherwise she will die. Only God knows if something has happened to her due to hunger, thirst or complications in the pregnancy. She was about to die. I don't even know if the pregnancy still holds or has she lost the baby? Very traumatic for them. You also met another woman who, because of this mass flooding, had lost the triplets she had just given birth to. She couldn't get any medical help in time.

What did she tell you? So she was unable to talk, of course, because she was just crying and, you know, she was in trauma. So we talked to her brother-in-law who took her to the hospital. You can also hear the soundbite from his brother-in-law as well. It was Thursday evening My sister-in-law was pregnant And suddenly her health had deteriorated

We begged our neighbors to help us to take her to the hospital They took out a car and took us away There was a lot of water on the way It was very difficult to reach the hospital Then she gave birth to the triplets in their car We could not reach the hospital So we went back home Her three newborns died on our way back home

Nobody can understand her grief She still cries and regrets that if her children had reached the hospital on time, maybe we could have saved them. Gosh, that is so sad and traumatic for that family to go through. But you've also been speaking to women who are pregnant now. And just, I suppose if they know or hear any of these stories, it must be so upsetting to them and so confusing about what might happen for them. Yeah, so let me tell you, I myself, is a new mother. So it was a very, very traumatic experience, even for me. I mean, you know, I went through my own pregnancy and I know how hard sometimes it is for women to, you know, to survive in circumstances. But unfortunately, they don't, other than the medical help, they don't have excessive food to eat. They don't have clean, water to drink. And they don't have, you know, and then the water is still there. It's not deciding. And then, you know, there are a lot of diseases, you could say, I have seen women with,

you know, skin diseases having fungus on their skins and then temperatures. And they don't have even painkillers with them. So, you know, they're looking at people and, you know, they're just helpless. So it was kind of a very traumatic experience for myself. I mean, there are times when I was talking to these pregnant women. And I actually broke into tears because, you know, sometimes you can't control your emotions, seeing the suffering of people. And most of these women, they were young women, like they were in the age of 18 to 23. So I met a woman of, you know, 20 years old who was having her second child. And she was literally thirsty like anything. She didn't had food to eat. She didn't had anything to drink. And the water she's been drinking, I saw her drinking mud-color water

because she don't have any other choice. So I talked to that woman as well. We have a soundbite of that woman too. So, you know, we can hear from that woman as well. I'm nine months pregnant. My delivery is due in next 15 days. Dr. has said that I will have a C-section operation. I have iron deficiency, low blood pressure and dehydration. I need to drink and eat well, but the water here is not drinkable. It's of mud colour. When the throat is very dry, I am forced to drink. I don't understand where can I go to drink clean water. Without water, I feel like I will die. Well, that very much brings it home, Tarhub. I mean, what does the Pakistani government say about the flood at the moment

and particularly for situations like these women find themselves in. So interestingly, the government is claiming that they have distributed more than 9,000 tons of goods and release. But unfortunately, these women, when I reached there, they told me that I'm the first person to visit them. I mean, I categorically asked them, you know, any authorities responded to you or any medical help that came to you.

And one of that woman I still remember, she said, you know, there is only one person who came with medicines and they gave me just because I was in extreme pain and then she was having a vaginal infection as well. And she said that, you know, it is so bad, it is so bad that I cannot even show it to you. And then, of course, other than that, she was, you know, complaining that I'm in extreme pain and they just had a paracetamol. And they just gave me that. So, you know, she's like, I don't have any medical access. So they were claiming that I'm the first person to visit them. So they were like, you know, they started seeking help from me. And I told them that, you know, I can bring your voice out.

But then, you know, they were like, they feel like, you know, I'm going to help them. And they started asking for donations. And in fact, the keen point that they wanted was, you know, we need medical help. And we need water filtration plant so that at least we can have water. If we don't have food, we can at least have access to clean water so that, you know, our child who's going to be born, you know, they cannot get affected by these kind of circumstances. Tarab Ushkir, thank you very much for speaking to us. Tarab is BBC Urdu reporter for the BBC World Service and has been speaking to pregnant women in the Pakistani province of Punjab and the difficult circumstances that they find themselves in. message about send

here's Jane I work in a special education school it isn't only the fight parents have to get EHCPs or the right school in our experience the struggle to get transport even when a place is allocated is huge where parents having to go to appeal several times even when the local authority has agreed that the child's needs can be best met

at their local STEM provision this is worse for the 16 to 19 year olds who don't get fully funded transport at all This means there are some students who are not able to get to school and miss huge chunks of time for this reason. The system needs fixing, exclamation point. Thanks for your messages, 84844, if you'd like to get in touch. Now, as the glittering women's summer of sport in football and rugby transitions

into the autumn of trophies and with the women's cricket World Cup, of course, still going on, what will the legacy be for women and girls' participation in grassroots sport? That is the question we're asking this morning. The women that will answer it are in the Women's Art Studio with the Sue Day, director of women's football at the Football Association. Sue is also a former rugby player for England and Stephanie Hillborn, CEO of the charity Women in Sport. Good morning to both of you.

Good morning. Still right and high? Oh my word. Absolutely. It's been quite a summer, hasn't it? It sure has. With so much good feeling. I suppose we were really riding the wave off the Red Roses last week.

And they're winning the women's rugby World Cup. Final against Canada. Yeah, it was the most incredible weekend, wasn't it? To be there watching those amazing women perform, as we all know they can, in front of 80-something thousand people all watching them do their thing and the joy in that stadium

and then for them to get the victory as well. It was just a beautiful day. Yeah, so I've been quoting these figures, 5.8 million watching the BBC coverage on the Women's Rugby World Cup final. 16.2 million watch UEFA women's Euro's final between England and Spain. But how do you, Sue, let me begin with you, capitalise on that enthusiasm?

Yeah, I mean, there's so many parts to that. But the first part is just the very existence of those tournaments and that many girls and boys at home getting to see them. And men and women, by the way, just changes the way that people think about what women and girls can do and that makes a difference in the long run. So changing perception. Stephanie, why do you think, however, women's participation,

in sport at all levels continues to be so much lower than men's. Well, the biggest gap is actually in team sports. Team sports. Yeah, there's a 24% gap between boys and girls playing team sport and that's where we've always missed out. So growing up, I'm over 50 now, growing up, we never, ever saw women's team sport on telly, never.

I remember the first time when I was watching the England women's football team and I was just glued because it was so deep. different. It was like something I hadn't seen before. Just the visuals offered before you even get into the sport. No, I mean, the thing with sport as a whole for men and women, for boys and girls, is what does it do for you? You know, it's not just joyful, but, you know, it builds resilience. It builds courage. It allows you to really build up your experience in teamwork. You become more of a leader. I think in particular, you know, some of the facets that women have been told we struggle with in the workplace. And, you know, as we've tried to kind of smash the glass ceiling, so to speak, about taking risks, particularly for a team.

So not just for yourself. That's so interesting to think about that as a team instead of an individual. Yeah. And, you know, for example, for giving someone else who's taken a risk, you know, these are all things which you learn through sport. You know, the reality is that sport is play and players learning. And yet girls have been missing out hugely on this team sport. And so now, I mean, it makes so many of us tearful, doesn't it? Just to see the lionesses win, to see the red roses win.

And of course, extra with the rugby is this seeing really strong women, hearing people say on national TV the big girls up front in a celebratory way rather than an insulting way, you know. And seeing them hurl themselves around is smashing stereotypes. And talking about big girls, big personalities. right amazing really big but that's part of what's been so so so brilliant about the coverage of the rugby and the football is the connection between the athletes and the people watching helping these amazing women be authentically unashamedly themselves bring their whole personalities to play because we know actually that one of the things that really gets girls interested in sport is being able to connect with the personalities of their heroes not just with the teams that their heroes play for which has always happened Men's sports, team sports for eons. Why don't we hear a little of some of the teenage girls

on the impact they've seen from the women's rugby World Cup? It's been great because I've had my friends from school talk to me about the World Cup that don't even play rugby. And we've had about four or five new players this year. So it's been getting much more well known. It's really nice to see on TV. You see football a lot on TV and on social media and rugby kind of gets left unnoticed a bit.

Like a lot of my friends don't really know what it's about. They just think of it as being quite violent or they just don't really understand it. So it's definitely me seeing it a lot more is just really exciting, knowing that it's actually going somewhere. I think it needs to be brought into the primary schools a lot more and they need to show a wider range of sports because I didn't really know, well, I knew about rugby

but I'd never actually played it in my primary school so it wasn't something I knew I could do. What would you do to encourage more girls in women to do sport. One thing was make the kit women's inclusive because it is quite painful. Like the shirts often fine but the shoes, they often, you really struggle

to find the right size and with the shorts as well. It's taken me quite a while to settle on a pair and even then sometimes I'm like, well, they don't quite fit around my heel and I've tried every pair. But it's like the shorts as well, they're either too tight round the thighs or they're too loose or they like to make them low rise.

Yeah, they do. They like to make them low rise and then... We have waist guys. I don't want them down by my ankles, thanks. Jessie, Eleanor, Hattie, who played for the under 16 team at Westere Rugby Club speaking to the BBC's Nicola Goodwin about their advice on how to get more girls into sport. And a lot of things struck me there. The kit is one, and I see Sue and Steph nodding their heads that this needs to happen.

But also picking up on that point of primary school, because we always hear about teenage girls dropping out. And I also, on the age thing, a lot of women don't join rugby until they hit college, which brings its own issues. But what about that, Steph? What about teenage girls, primary school girls? What needs to happen? Well, I mean, it does start really young. This is the issue, isn't it? That when we have our children, we are still stereotyping them from virtually from birth. And we're very much telling the little boys that their whole lives depend on proving they're the best at sport. and we're not generally, this is obviously generalisation, but our research shows it,

we're not skilling girls up in ball skills, in racket skills. And so when they start at primary school, there's not a level playing field. And in fact, they're thrown in with the boys who want to prove they're better. And then women and girls' self-belief halves during primary school. So we have really got to focus on primary school where we don't have specialist PE teachers,

where we need to give the time, and we need to recognise the value of it and we need to understand the starting difference between the girls and boys. I'm even thinking about the word that I was often called when I was a kid, which is tomboy. But we put it in male language. Yeah, I mean, exactly.

Everything about sport has been sort of designed by and for men and boys and we're sort of trying to fit girls into this narrower box. And actually, the girls that just spoke, I agree with them entirely, giving girls a chance, to play in primary school, but listening to them and creating a space for them that's a space

that they want to be in, allowing them to wear the clothes that they feel comfortable in. So it's a space they're comfortable in, it's clothes they're comfortable in, showing them, helping them feel whole in this space that is sport and not forcing them into this narrow space that's what men and boys have always wanted.

The sports bra hasn't been talked about. A part of your kit? Well, I mean, only 14% of schools when we did a survey put it on the kit list. That's what I mean. And yet it's massive. massive problem for girls, the pain, you know, breast pain they experienced. But the other thing, I think, is around school and in the community, we need more women coaching. And that's a massive gap. I mean, even at this World Cup, three out of 17 of the coaches were women. I think

it's really two and a half, because one of them was co-coaching. So I think if we can crack the issue of equalizing a number of women and men coaching, that would really help. I don't want to let you go without speaking a bit, Steph, about the research you've done on black girls' participation in sport and dream rates. Okay, both of those things. So, I mean, the dream rates, it's been very interesting. We've been monitoring over a period of four or five years, the number of 13 to 24-year-olds, boys and girls, men and women,

who dream of reaching the top in sport. And in the first year, in 2020, it was 60% of boys, 30% of girls. We thought after the lionesses, that would have been transformed. It turned out it had been transformed for the super sporty girls, but for everyone else, no impact. kept going. And it was at the end of last year, we saw a sudden uptick in the dream rates and the girls. They went up to nearer 38%, which is amazing. The boys are playing at a pretty level, you know, in the last five years. So there has been a rise, and particularly for the super sporty girls. The issue is that category is so much smaller for girls and boys.

There's so many fewer in that category. So that's a dream, I think. But what the dream survey also told us was the black girls' dream rates are through the roof. like 60% of black girls' dream of reaching the top compared to 33% of white British girls and yet we've got under-representation. And that will be another goal to work on. We could talk for a lot longer about this but you'll both come back to chat to us again, I hope. Sue Day, director of women's football at the FA

and Stephanie Hillborn CEO of the charity Women in Sport. Thank you both so much. It's just been announced sadly that Julie Cooper, the British author of novels such as rivals and riders has died at the age of 88. Do join me again tomorrow where we will talk about to Hope Reefs, the author as well, of course,

lots of other topics. I do hope you will join me then. Carnival of Animals is coming up next. That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time. The figure's face was featureless and its entire body was jet black. I'm Danny Robinson and throughout October.

I will be sharing uncanny listeners, real-life ghost stories. That's one every single day as we count down to the spookiest time of the year. Suddenly, all hell lets loose. The sound of glass smashing, heavy objects being thrown, doors being ripped off hinges. It was coming from the cellar. I looked up and was staggered to see a humongous black triangle floating silently over the rooftop.

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It's coming on really straight. It's like he's trying to date you all of a sudden. Yeah, and I do look like my mother. Love me. Available now wherever you get your podcasts.