Woman's Hour - 07/05/2025

Episode Date: May 7, 2025

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Hello this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Well today we'll hear about an initiative in Bristol where female sex workers are working closely with the police to help safeguard children at risk of sexual exploitation. They identify the dangerous men that they encounter and we'll hear how this unusual partnership works with some of those that are involved. Also today have you started watching the latest seizing of Glow Up Britain's next makeup star? Well if so you will know the host, Leomé Anderson.

She's going to be with us in studio. Leomé was the first black British Victoria Secret model. She was one of the faces of Rihanna's Fenty brand, but she's also a young carer, or has been. We'll hear about her ambition to leave a legacy. Also today, we look at why girls born in the north of England can expect to live shorter lives than those born elsewhere in the country,

and also with worse health earlier. So that new research coming up. And if you have a wanderlust at the moment, but nobody to travel with, we have a conversation coming up that is for you. We're asking, is 2025 the year of the solo female traveler? Well my guests would probably say yes, but what about you? Are you packing your bag or do you have the urge but something is holding you back? Your questions, your adventures,

you can text the program the number is 84844 and on social media we're at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website. For a WhatsApp message or a voice note that number is 03700 100 444 and we'll have that conversation a little later in the hour. And we're also going to follow up on the story of the Dublin statue Molly Malone. Do you remember this? It continues to make headlines after our interview a few months ago with the female busker Tilly who campaigned to stop tourists groping Molly's breasts. Now there has been progress and Tilly will join me again with her reaction to

it. But do let us begin within you BBC News documentary The Sex Detectives Keeping Kids Safe. It has been released on BBC iPlayer today and it follows a groundbreaking project in Bristol, which engages the help of street sex workers to protect children and young people at risk of sexual exploitation. Avon and Somerset Police have teamed up with the children's charity, Barnardo's, and also partnered with Bristol's Street Sex Workers to gather intelligence about

dangerous offenders and pedophiles. So joining me in studio this morning is social worker Jo Ritchie who's employed by Barnardo's and sex work liaison officer Rose Brown and we are going to be speaking about sex work and child sexual exploitation so some of what you hear may be upsetting. Welcome to both of you. Good morning. Thank you. So this is called the Nightlife Partnership. How would you describe it Jo? So it's an innovative approach to safeguarding some of our most vulnerable children in the city. It's as you described a partnership program, so I co-lead it from Barnardo's with the wonderful Rose Brown from Avon and Somerset Police. And perhaps most uniquely, we work, we partner with

the women, with the street sex workers. We very much see them as the experts. They are the eyes and ears when it comes to tackling nighttime exploitation of children and young people. So they help us in our aim of identifying children but also in identifying really dangerous men who are looking to harm both the children and the women as well. Well get into some of I suppose the details, the instances that you did uncover but my first question Rose really comes to how does this partnership come about? You're from the police? I would imagine it's usually an

antagonistic relationship at times between street sex workers and the police. Yeah it can be. In Avon and Somerset though we've been working with the on-street sex workers in a safeguarding capacity for about 20 years and sort of nationally are seen as best practice in this area. And so we already had work that was undergoing where we went out engaging with the sex workers around sort of adult sexual exploitation, so assaults that are happening to them, and disrupting curb-callers and looking for dangerous sex offenders who are attending the area. However, Joe came up with the idea of talking to the sex workers about what

was happening with child sexual exploitation in that area and Joe found me within the police and then we started the sort of project. It'd been running for about a year, I came on board and then we've been running it now for about three years together and had some amazing outcomes when it comes to the information that the women have been giving us around sort of paedophiles, men that are attending the area looking for children, trying to access children but also children who've been identified out in the red light area and who are at risk of that sort of serious exploitation. And it is not illegal to buy sex but it is to curb-crawl?

Yes. Because you mentioned that term there. Yeah that's right, so no it's not illegal to buy sex and but it is to curb crawl? Yes. Because you mentioned that term there. Yeah, that's right. So no, it's not illegal to buy sex, and it's not illegal to sell sex. The actual offences are the soliciting and curb crawling. We don't enforce against the women, and we take a harm reduction approach,

as we know they're incredibly vulnerable. Most of the women are homeless. They have severe mental health problems, Class A drug addictions. They're also repeated victims of sexual violence. So we recognise that they are incredibly vulnerable. They need that safety, especially with on-street sex workers. We don't even say they're sex working, we call it survival sex because they don't really have sort of the same freedom of choice that say some more impaired off-street sex workers would have.

Just because- Off-street. Yeah. So the level of exploitation with the on-street sex workers is off the chart. Most of them do have pimps or they would call boyfriends who are sort of forcing them into sex work. I want to play a clip from the documentary. This is a sex worker known as Anna, not her real name, and she is describing to Rachel Stonehouse from the BBC West investigations team that made this documentary what she did when a man who was paying her for sex revealed a disturbing sexual interest in his own child.

And the only way I could get more information was to pretend I wasn't at all shocked. Once you were sure you then thought you've got to report this to me? Oh yeah, that was the only reason I was carrying on with it. I wouldn't have even been there. It really was nasty. I mean it's a horrible thing to go through but if you think there's a chance that you're walking away and leaving a child in that position, you've got to stay, you've got to find out. And if you're wrong and you report it too soon and you are wrong, then you've not only ripped his life apart, his whole family's life apart. I mean he's got a wife, he's got a job, he's got,

you know. Do you know what's happened to him now? He's in prison. He has gone to prison? I went to court on that one. I think that is such a revealing clip, Jo. So many, on so many aspects. One, what you're up against when it comes to child exploitation. This man, I believe, it was his eight-year-old daughter that Anna was trying to protect. I mean, people might wonder, why do sex workers talk to you?

Why do they trust you? That's a really good question. I think they are the most passionate when it comes to night light. They are really big advocates and really sadly that's because the majority of them have experienced child sexual abuse themselves. I have lost count of the amount of women that have said to me or Rose, I wish this was here when I was a kid because perhaps I wouldn't be where I am now. So I think they're really passionate about trying to prevent children from living the reality that they sadly have to lead. But yeah, I mean, Anna is one of many phenomenal women who have had such an impact in safeguarding many children. And

I guess it's really difficult to quantify the impact. There's a lot of preventative work that's done through the work that we've done with the women. One thing I just want to be really clear, we don't task the women. We don't want to put them at more risk. They are incredibly vulnerable in what they do. So how do you quantify that part? Because I'm thinking, Anna, for example, we don't know all the details, but she did go with this man a number of times trying to verify the information that in fact he was abusing his daughter. And we would never ask the women to do that I think that was very much her approach I think what we do is provide them with opportunities to speak to us with confidence that they're going

to be safeguarded. I think a lot of the women are really nervous about what implications might be on them if they share information and so they're very much kept anonymous so that's one thing we're really clear on. I mean Rose do you worry about them feeling under pressure particularly if they're as passionate as Jo says because perhaps they've had horrendous experiences themselves in the past as a child. Yeah absolutely, what we do is when Jo and I are out on a plane car we carry sort of just food, drink, bags of clothing. Women can get in the car and be rummaging through the clothing because they generally have have nothing,

just what they're wearing, and it's a bit of a cover really for why they're in the car with us. And then there is absolutely no pressure, we talk to them about how they are, what's going on for them, so I'm obviously really interested in any offences against them as well, any adult sexual exploitation. And we've had a huge increase in that actually, as time's gone on, alongside an increase in the reports around concerns for children, I think as women, as the women have built confidence and trust in the programme, they've actually spoken to us a lot more about the sexual exploitation that they're experiencing as adults.

You know, exploited children and women involved in street sex work really rarely experience justice and one of our main aims within Nightlight is to kind of help them have better access to the criminal justice program and that's something that hopefully has really improved and we've seen that in the figures. But we know these women by your description as well are incredibly vulnerable at times and have been through horrendous experiences, maybe been on the street for many years. Do you feel you can trust them and what they say? Oh absolutely and the information that they

give us has resulted in some amazing outcomes. Like what? So a group of them were telling us that there was a particular male that had been raping the on-street sex workers so we had a number of them telling us that this was happening. One in particular then gave us some information that he'd been stopped for no insurance. So we were able to do some checks and locate where that had happened and sort of ascertain who'd been driving the car. The particular male who'd been driving was wanted for a rape of a child in another forest

area. We were then able to go and arrest him at the address of my team and they did a search the address they located devices that had images of child sexual abuse on them other evidence that there was contact child sexual offence is taking place but he also had cable ties duct tape plastic sheeting the women had been telling Joe and I that this male was at risk of killing someone I think three of them said to us, kind of looked us in the eye and said if you don't find him one of us is going to be killed. So they were spot on, they absolutely knew the level of risk that this man posed and I guess by them sharing that information he

you know he's in prison now and you can't even begin to imagine the amount of harm they've prevented from taking place not just to themselves but to children as well. And when you tell them that? Oh, they are so proud of themselves, rightly so, and I think that's what we really celebrate them. This project would not work without them. We look to them as the experts. Like I said, they're the eyes, they're the ears, they're the ones with the knowledge and sadly the insight, and they're absolutely phenomenal.

But it has been wonderful. We've received a couple of national social work and police awards for the work which we very much say are shared with the women and talking to them about those awards has just been really wonderful. I think they're really proud of what they're achieving. Yeah, I'm feeding that back to some of the women. Like in the documentary there's Megan, who gave us information that led to safeguarding of two young children. When we fed that back to her, she was so proud of what she'd done and said, I've done something good today, because it had been so long since she's felt that way. It really was quite amazing and yeah the women have just been absolutely phenomenal. So we've talked about the risks to the women but

I'm wondering the two of you are a partnership that have found each other. Do you ever worry about the risk to either of you as this has been shown obviously on TV of who you are and what you're doing? Oh no, if you're honest, I think I've worked in the sexual exploitation field for about 16 years and feel confident in the systems that we have in place around safety, both within Barnardo's and within the police. And I always say to my mum, it's the safest work I do night-light because I'm out with the police. We have a big team who are out. Yeah, and the women all know me very well and the men that are exploiting them are very much aware of who we are and they keep their distance because we're

providing the women with basic needs, food, drinks, clothing. They aren't aware obviously that we talk to the women the way that we do but we... But they will be now perhaps. We are making sure that everyone that's featured is completely anonymous in the documentary so we've we've gone through quite a lot to make sure everyone's been sort of as safeguarded as absolutely possible in relation to that and we also anything that the women tell us is kept completely anonymous so that's something that is a bit of a change really from some traditional police work. I think also watching the documentary it shows lots of different men,

different types of men, different backgrounds purchasing sex, including a group of three students in a car for example. Do you think there's a particular profile of a man who buys sex? No, we talk about this a lot. I think that you know Bristol is a very diverse population and the men that we come across very much represent the demographic in which we live. I think Rose you could probably speak to it a bit more. Yeah I mean we've heard men who are 18 because if they're younger than that then we'll be looking at safeguarding. So 18 up to 85 out purchasing sex. We've had men from all

socioeconomic backgrounds, very professional people, to people who are on benefits. So there is not one type of man that we've come across who curb crawls. Or in relation to the child sexual exploitation we've come across men on lots of different walks of life in our work. What is the scale that you have found and I know COVID for example revealed perhaps some of what you were dealing with a little bit more Rose. Yeah and I think Jo was the one actually who really noticed during lockdown and because there was less flow of traffic etc what was going on on

the streets with CSE was more visible? Yeah so the area that nightlight takes place is the area where street sex work functions and we've always known that that's a hot spot where children are at increased risk of being targeted for the purposes of child exploitation and that's because there are people who are walking, driving, cycling to the area with the intention of purchasing sex and really sadly some have a preference for children. What we've struggled to do is get a handle on it and I think what COVID did was it really exposed those crimes because that through traffic was massively reduced. And we had a big police investigation

which started because there was a network of adult men who were seen to be spending time with a group of children, supplying them with alcohol, driving them to nearby locations before returning them to the area. And what we quickly worked out was that they were repeatedly trafficking and sexually exploiting that cohort of children. So we worked as a big multi-agency group, so the police, children's services, Barnardo's and other organisations, to safeguard those children and to disrupt those men, but we knew that they were going to be replaced. So I guess it was at that point that I had the idea of speaking to the women.

Where did that come from? I've worked with the women before and I think you know there are so many stereotypes which is so inaccurate they are such caring, kind, thoughtful women who you know they don't want to see children out there and I think I've had conversations in the past where they've raised concerns about young people and I think you know a lot of services close at 5 p.m. they are sadly out at night and I think I ended up speaking to a few of services close at 5pm, they are sadly out at night. And I think I ended up speaking to a few of the women who I already had relationships with and they were incredible. They showed such amazing insight. And there was one particular woman that I spoke to, who pretty much

talked about what was happening in that police operation. But she ended it by saying, but what can I do? I'm just a sex worker. And you that really struck me and I said actually we really need you and she alongside all the other women that were speaking to was really keen to be part of a safeguarding solution and and that was what led to the birth of nightlights. Yeah. Are other areas copying your model? Well we hope so we've had three or four four forces now one coming out next week to have a look at what we do. We're also in talks with something called Hydrant which is a police organisation and they are looking to do sort of a cost analysis. But what we would say is it's really

cheap to replicate isn't it Jo? Yeah I always say it's the cost of a decent hot chocolate and some condoms and it's really it's not that expensive and it obviously depends on like Bernardo's and Ava and Somerset Police releasing a couple of people for some hours. So yeah. Before I let you go what's it been like working together? Wonderful. Brilliant yeah. We're a good team I think our skills very much complement each other and we're both incredibly passionate. Give two busy women something to do. Yeah, exactly. And see what gets done. Well thank you very much. Joe Ritchie and Rose Brown and the Sex Detectives, Keeping Kids Safe is available on the BBC

iPlayer. If you've been affected by anything that you heard today you can go to the BBC Action Line website where you will find links to help and support. Now I've been asking for some of your questions whether you have a wanderlust, lots of you getting in touch. Helen asks, I'm 61 I want to do a road trip through France and on to northern Italy where I holidayed as a teenager. I'll have my two-year-old Labrador as a companion. How safe will it be for me as a woman alone and how welcome are dogs in restaurants and cafes and on beaches generally?

My safety concerns are the only thing that are stopping me. So we'll get that answer for you, Helen. Keep the questions coming in because we've a number of guests that are going to be here to answer your questions who are experts in the solo female traveller. Oh, here's another one. First solo holiday next week to Malaga. I've booked solo travellers B&B and looking forward to a break on my own. Yes, lovely. Enjoy. The Sunshine 84844 if you'd like to get in touch. Now, in the studio is Leomé Anderson. She is a model, a TV presenter, a campaigner. She was scouted at the tender age of 14 and

went on to work with fashion houses like Burberry, Giorgio Armani, Vivienne Westwood. She was one of the faces, you might recognise her, from Rihanna's brand Fenty Beauty when it launched in 2017. And she became the first Victoria's Secret Angel from a black British background. She's also now, maybe you love this programme, many of us do, the presenter of the BBC series Glow Up, the search for Britain's next top makeup artist. It's back on for its seventh series. Obviously a lot of people like it. Leonby, welcome to Woman's Hour. Hello. Thank you so much for having me. So, okay, for those that haven't seen the series, how will we describe it? Okay, so I would describe Glow Up as a makeup

competition show where they are put into real life scenarios of how makeup is really applied. Because I think people think makeup is just about, you know, what you do in your room or like red carpet glam. But they're doing prosthetics on the set of House of the Dragon. They're backstage at theatre shows like Cabaret doing, you know, actual actresses makeup. It's amazing. It's art, really, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, they're incredible. And I think this is a real moment for makeup, you know, in the sense of, maybe it's YouTube, maybe it's social media. I don't know, maybe it's Instagram,

but there's like an attention to it. And it is a highly competitive field. That's such a growing industry. I definitely think a lot of the contestants really started doing makeup during COVID when they were in their rooms, they didn't have, you know, many ways to be able to express themselves. And they are really self taught. And I love the fact that Glow Up gives them an opportunity to show their creativity and also show them that it's a real job too. Yeah, and the stress is, oh my gosh. I know there's a lot of stress. People would think that makeup is easy, but it is stressful sometimes guys. Well, you are a model. How many times must you have had your makeup done over the years? Oh, too many to count and not always good.

But watching it from this angle, I wonder what that feels like. Oh, you want to know what? Sometimes you'll be, you know, running to a show and you'll have six people trying to do hair, makeup, nails, and it feels so stressful. And then you just have to get ready and you're smiling, walking the runway and acting like nothing happened. I think that's probably one of the most interesting parts about it is that makeup, it can be a mask, but it can also be seen as like a coat of armor as well, you know. Yeah, I think a lot of people would agree with that. Let's talk about your modeling career.

14 when you were scouted in a McDonald's, have I got that right? I was actually outside of Centre Court in Wimbledon, the shopping centre, and the scout was carrying McDonald's. That's why I thought you cannot possibly be serious. And I ran away because of stranger danger, as you should. And then the next day he came back and was like, no, I'm not, you know, I'm not a weird guy. Have you ever considered doing modeling? But at the age of 14, I didn't even think I could work.

I didn't think it was actually a real job I was being offered. So I just never called. And then three months later, somebody else came up to me and I was like, okay, these guys can tell I'm young. So maybe let me just go in with my mum and see. And I got signed the same day. And what was that like? I mean, was it immediately been thrown into, I don't know, the world of models and high fashion? What was the path like?

My mum did not allow me to miss too much school for modelling, which I really, really appreciate her for because she saw the value in my education and I think that having that strength and that confidence within me that modelling is not all that I'm capable of or going to be the biggest thing that I can do, it gave me a sort of conviction from a very young age that I need to use the industry and learn from the industry, I can't let the industry use me. And what, I mean so many roles that you've had within the industry, for can't let the industry use me. And what, I mean so many roles that you've had within the industry, for example let's talk about Victoria's Secret.

We all kind of got used to those runway shows but you were the first black British Victoria's Secret's model. What was that like? What do you remember of it? Oh my gosh, no one could ever make me talk bad about Victoria's Secret, I can't lie. I had a really amazing experience working with them because they were probably one of the only brands that I felt really allowed me to be myself. They celebrated having a big personality. They celebrated the fact that I was very vocal with my voice and they treated us really well. So I know that obviously people have their own opinions on Victoria's Secret, but I will say from my personal experience, I really got to be myself, which I really appreciated.

But being prepared for the runway, whether it's the hair or makeup, and being sometimes the only person of colour in that room that you've described before, I wonder what that was like or whether you felt people were ready for you? With Victoria's Secret, I feel like they had quite a diverse amount of models. But I'll say in other scenarios where, you know, I'm booking shows and I am one of 60 models and I'm the only black model, sometimes those experiences were very alienating, alienating for me. I remember doing, you know, fashion weeks in Berlin and having racist remarks said to me, I've waited in castings for three hours and then being told,

sorry, we don't want any black girls this season after watching me sit there for three hours. And these are the sort of experiences that became very normal for me when I was younger. And I realized that I had to find my voice because if I didn't, I knew that somebody who was younger than me was going to go through the exact same thing and I didn't want that for them. But it's a lot of pressure. I mean, just because you're black doesn't mean that you need to speak out for everybody who's black in some ways. I know, I know. But you want to know what? And I do believe that if it's not within you to speak out, then that's not you. But I just knew for some reason, it was kind of my path. I felt like it

was very natural to me to speak up and find a way to be able to translate our experiences for people to understand. And it came to a point where black models knew I'd be coming to you know, a radio show like this and be like, Leomi, can you please talk about you know, our hair? Can you please talk about this? Can you please talk about that? And I just took it in my stride, because if I didn't, nobody else of my generation was doing it. So it felt very important to me. Does it feel different now? I mean, do you feel there's been real progress? I do feel like there has been progress. When I very first started, you would not see anybody with their natural hair on the runway. They would make you chemically straighten your hair.

There wasn't really products available for us. And, you know, we're walking on the runway, not feeling our best. And now we do have products, you know, you had Rihanna come with Fenty Beauty and their 40 shades of foundation, which many brands then followed suit. You see so many more content creators of color being celebrated and collaborating with brands. I think that's really amazing. But now I really feel like we still have a long way to go with representation, not just in front of the camera, but behind it as well. Let's talk about Rihanna. Oh, my favourite. I love this woman. She must be sick of seeing her name pop up next to mine, but I don't care.

Well, I love that your name is next to hers because a lot of us, of course, looking at Rihanna this week, she had those fabulous photographs of her revealing her third pregnancy at the Met Gala. If you picked up any paper online, you would have seen it. But I heard when you met her, you were a fan-girling teenager. Your words? Yes, I was. The very first time I met her was actually backstage at a concert when I was 15 years old.

And then fast forward, I think it was three years later, and she recognised me when I then worked with her for her River Island collaboration. And every year since then, pretty much, I've worked with her for her River Island collaboration. And every year since then, pretty much, I've worked with her and she's supported me. She's put money in my pocket. She's championed me. And even after my dad passed away, she was probably one of the only people, like celebrity-wise, who actually reached out to me several times to check in on me because she knew how close I was to my dad. So I'll always sing Rhianna's praises. No pun intended. Yeah, that is lovely though. I mean, you know, in a moment of real life away from the glitz and the

glamour and I'm really sorry for the loss of your dad. I know he died young from cancer as well. We can talk a little bit more about the ramifications of that. But I am also thinking, because I know you want to leave something worthwhile behind, a legacy. And I was thinking about Rihanna, she has this brand Fenty that's now valued at over a billion dollars. And what is it like from that fangirling teenager of 15 to be now part of that world? Honestly, it feels surreal. But at the same token, if you had asked me at 15, do you think you're going to be in this position where you could also leave legacy? I'd say I really

do hope so because I've always kind of had it in me to, to strive to do something that will last longer than me. I think from a very young age, modeling taught me a lot. It definitely gave me a thick skin. But it also showed me that with the right frame of mind, you can really do a lot and achieve a lot more than what anyone could ever think for you. But you just have to have that vision for yourself. So I'm really proud of where I've gotten to. But I definitely have a lot more to achieve. Did you have a role model growing up? I know we had Rihanna at 15. But anyone else? You want to know what's so interesting about the people who I saw as role models? I'd say

it'd probably be like someone like Jordan Dunne, because not even because of what she's done in her career, but from the times that we worked together, I loved the fact that she was just normal and funny and goofy and just kept her authenticity. And so having someone like her as someone I looked up to just made me remember within myself that you can just be yourself. Being yourself is enough. So I'd say she definitely was someone that you know imprinted on me from a young age. Talking about being yourself, natural for you to speak out as we talked about, you have spoken in the past about the

pay that you receive sometimes being less than your white counterparts. Do you think that's still the case? I definitely think that that is the case in not just the fashion industry but in a lot of industries that people of colour are paid less. I think that is definitely something that needs to change not within just within the fashion industry but in most industries unfortunately. And in the fashion industry did you get any evidence or indication of it or people talking to you about it? You know, you do talk with your model friends about people that they've worked

with clients that they've worked with. And when they're saying the things that they're being offered, even whether it's like little things like being able to get a car to a certain job before I would even be too scared to ask for that. And then when I started realizing that stuff like that was the norm for my counterparts, I realized like, okay, why is it that it's not being offered to me? And then you start looking more into pay, you start talking about, you know, deals that they're being offered. And sometimes they can be double, triple what I've been offered for the exact same thing,

or I'm actually being asked to do way more work than them. So that transparency, I imagine you'd like to see a little bit more of perhaps when it comes to pay. I want to come back to your dad and that is so sad that you lost him to cancer because I know you were very close to him and that you looked after him as a carer after he got ill. You also became a carer for your younger cousins just at 28. Yeah. But I'm just trying to think of, you know, this young woman who's been thrust into this, you know, high profile role, like we're talking about Rihanna and the likes,

but also with feet that must be so firmly grounded because you have to take care or you're the carer officially for these, what was 15 year old and 10. Yes, yeah. You want to know what, when that situation happened in my life, I didn't think it was going to last for as long as it did. I thought it was going to be maybe two weeks. It ended up being two years. And the main thing for me was that although I was living what people would consider to be this glamorous life, I had to provide so much security and stability for them as young people. So, and I'm a very private person as well. Like, I don't really like to speak too much on what I'm going through at the time. And I feel like it

made it quite difficult because people would assume that, you know, why is she being off today? Or why is she not able to do this? Or why is she not out as much? And it's like, you don't even know really what I'm going through. It was a really difficult time for sure. But it must give you, I'm sure it does, a compassion and empathy for others that... 100%. ...are going through something like caring, for example, whether it's for a sick loved one or other family members? 100%. And one of the reasons why I was so happy a few months ago, I did the

celebrity interior design mask. We redid the Sandwell Young Carers Centre. And the reason why that was so important to me is because I know if I'm 28, and I understand how much of a struggle it was to just, you know, be given this responsibility, imagine what it's like being, you know, 12 years old, 13 years old, 14 years old, and having to care for a sick family member or take on that responsibility. It does give you a kind of humility that it's a sad thing to go through, but it does give you a new perspective on life, on the world and what you should appreciate and who you should value in your life, you know.

I know you're very close with your mum. Of course, it was mum that was keeping you in school. Yeah, keeping everything in check, yes. Instead of jetting off. Tell us a little bit about her. What's her name? My mum's name is Beverly. She works in the bank and she's one of the most inspiring people in my life. She is so fearless.

She's actually a solo traveller as well. Oh, lovely. She's just someone that really embraces life. But at the same token, she gave me that humility to understand that, you know, just because I'm living this crazy lifestyle doesn't mean that I should let it get to my head because anything can happen. And her piece of advice when I was younger was,

these people are not your friends. And she said it to me, the day that I actually got signed, when my agents and everyone had left the room and gave us time to ourselves after you know, being like, Oh, you're gonna do so amazingly. We love you, blah, blah. She was like, just remember that these people are not your friends. This is a job. And in a way, you're a type of commodity to these people. So just, you know, she just kind of instilled in me, don't let the glitz and glamour get to you. And I'll always thank her for that because it comes true. Every single day of my life, I see what she's talking

about, you know. Naomi Anderson, you'll be back to us again soon. Thank you. I sure hope so. And you can find her now on Glow of Britain's Next Makeup Star, which is on the BBC iPlayer now. Thanks so much for coming back to us. Thank you so much for having me. Bye. which is on the BBC iPlayer now. Thanks so much for coming in to us. Thank you so much for having me. Bye. Bye. Our listeners share their life experiences. We've shared so many moments of laughter and tears. Words of wisdom. Never be afraid to take risks.

Education is your greatest weapon. And letters to their daughters. Dear daughter. Dear daughter. Dear daughter from the BBC World Service. Listen now wherever you get your BBC podcasts. now wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Right. The solo travellers as Leomi was talking about were mum Beverly.

Here's Joe. I am 77. I'm about to go on my first solo holiday tomorrow. Wish me luck. We do wish you luck. And you know who else wishes you luck? Two people who have just joined. Leomi's walking out. Instead we have journalist Shante Joseph and the solo and style blogger and community founder Deborah Ives. Welcome to both of you this morning.

Pull up a chair there. Because the reason we're talking about this, this wanderlust, there are many women that are deciding not to wait for family or friends to go on an adventure. There's a hashtag solo travel, five million posts across TikTok and Instagram. And in a recent Press Association interview, this is Hostelworld CEO Gary Morrison. He says that there is a surge in solo travellers, especially young female backpackers that it's reshaping the travel industry. So the question is, is 2025 the year of the solo female traveller?

Let us talk to our two guests. Well, why don't we start with Jo going on her first solo travel tomorrow at 77. Deborah, she wants to be wished luck. Oh, good luck, Jo. And you know, I think the overwhelming feeling that she will have at the end of this is, oh, good luck, Jo. You know, I think the overwhelming feeling that she will have at the end of this is, oh my goodness, I should have done this sooner. It was everything I wanted it to be and more. It was fantastic. And I'm sure she will have a great time.

What was your story? So, I came to solo travel around 50. I had always traveled with my ex-husband and loved traveling, absolutely loved it. And suddenly found myself on my own with a holiday booked to Borneo. So rather than sort of letting that go, I thought, you know what, I'm sure I can do this on my own. Borneo though, let's just stop for a moment. Yes, yes. I mean, I have traveled quite a bit, but Borneo, I would imagine, is kind of next level.

It was absolutely terrifying, but really empowering. And I had quite a few, you know, wobbly moments along the way and quite a few sort of moments where I was on my own thinking, oh my goodness, what have I done? Why am I here? But when I look back on it now, I think, oh my goodness, I had so many very special moments that only really happened because I was on my own. And then you learn. And you know, my next trip was actually a bit of a disaster because I was feeling so cocky, I'm so confident. And then you learn from that and you then you learn and you keep going.

I'm a big believer in that, that a lot of lovely moments only happen because you're by yourself. Shanté, what about you? Solo traveling. Tell me some of your adventures. Oh, my days. So basically, I've kind of committed now to trying to travel by myself every year for a month in a different place.

And this started in 2021. So I went to, I was in Portugal for a month. The year after, I went to Brazil, which was crazy, but I absolutely loved it. And the year after, I was in Portugal for a month. The year after I went to Brazil, which was crazy, but absolutely loved it. And the year after I was in Southeast Asia. I'm still figuring out how I'm going to do it this year, because it's been a bit of a mad year, but I kind of decided to do this because, you know, during lockdown, when everything was shut to me, I realized that I had really neglected my kind of desire to travel. I never really had a group of friends.

I was always single. I kind of felt like I didn't have people to travel with. And so I kind of denied myself the pleasure of traveling. And then I realized, you know, the world is closed up and this could be taken from me at any moment. So I should really take this opportunity. And now I cannot stop solo traveling. I'm always on the go. I want to know, I mean, what are some of the possibilities for the coming trip? Oh, I mean, it could be anywhere. I'm really thinking to try the Caribbean because I come from the Caribbean. I've only been there maybe once or twice.

I have family there, and I'm really desperate to try and go back. And I also combine my solo travel with remote working as well. So I really embed myself in the places that I go so I get to know the people around me. It doesn't feel so isolating because I'm in the flow and the rhythm of where I am.

A lot of people in the flow and in the rhythm on our messages. Here we go, let's see. Trudy, I'm going on my and the rhythm of where I am. A lot of people in the flow and in the rhythm on our messages. Here we go. Let's see. Trudy, I'm going on my first solo cruise next week. I'm looking forward to it, although a little apprehensive as it's my first time away on my own. Deborah. Oh yeah, cruising, that's very popular with solos.

I mean, of any age, but I tend to sort of, my community is much more for the female over 50 and cruising is very big in my community is much more for the female over 50 and cruising is very big in my community. So I think you'll find that there will be lots of solos on the cruise and I think you'll find that there are, there'll be people who are organising solo tables for you to eat together because quite often eating on your own is a big thing that solos worry about. We've talked about that on the programme. Yeah And you know, my advice would be put away the phone or the book and just eat and watch.

Yeah. Great people watching. Here's we got a question a little bit earlier from a woman who was wondering about traveling by herself for the first time to France and also northern Italy and that she has a Labrador, I believe, that she's bringing with her. And whether, you know, what you might do and would people be open to a dog, for example. But I got this message in response. Just heard someone inquiring if it was safe to travel across France on her own. In 2023 I bought a donkey. Oh great. In Cores, if I'm pronouncing that correctly. And together we walked across France. Oh my

goodness, that's great. We were welcomed walked across France. Oh my God. And part of England. Oh my goodness. That's great. We were welcomed wherever we went. It was one of the best experiences of my life. Tell her not to hesitate. So there you have it. I mean, I need the backstory. Fabulous.

I mean, if you can bring a donkey, you can definitely bring a dog. Here's another. I'm just back from a trip last week to Brittany, France again. Just me and my Jack Russell Woody. I'm in my 40s and only learned to drive last year and driving to France with my dog was a dream. I couldn't have loved it more. The roads are so much safer with no potholes for a start but it was a wonderful adventure and generally given me a massive confidence boost. Maybe a boot as well. That's Kate. But Deborah, or let me turn to you Shanté

actually first. What is it do you think that stops women solo travelling? I think number one is safety, right? People inherently feel quite unsafe when you're a woman by yourself in an unfamiliar space, there's nothing around you you recognize, you feel like you're in imminent danger. And sometimes I think a lot of this is in our own heads. And especially if you live in a city and you're aware of your surroundings and you know how to be safe where you are, you can be safe anywhere. And a lot of us, especially women, we're not going to put ourselves

in compromising positions or in spaces where we could be like attacked. I mean, we are very aware. And I think sometimes you have to trust yourself, trust that you are going to be OK because you have a gut instinct that keeps you safe. Well, let's talk about how you keep yourself safe, because you talked about traveling in Brazil by yourself. That's something I did as well. And I think you did have to think ahead about whether you were going to get a taxi or where you might be in the evenings, for example.

Yeah. So what I did basically was a lot of the time if I'm traveling around, I'm booking a lot of group tours, group activities, group trips. Like, yes, I'm by myself, but it doesn't mean I have to spend the entirety of my holiday by myself. Those give me the opportunities to meet new people and then I can also arrange things, maybe evening activities with them. But if I'm travelling in the evening, I'm still getting taxis, I'm still getting Ubers. If I'm staying in a hostel, which I tend to do, you know, I'm talking to the local hostel staff, I'm asking them about best routes and best practices. I'm really trying to ask people where I am, how I can stay safe, and I think that being aware of your surroundings helps to keep you feeling like assured that nothing bad will happen.

How has it been traveling solo as a black woman? Oh, very tough. I've spoken about this before. I will 100% recommend solo traveling to every woman, but I will say traveling while you're black, you are kind of open up to a lot of racism, unfortunately. The travel community, especially the solo travel and the backpacking community is predominantly white. That can make hostels sometimes feel like quite uninviting spaces or just travel in general feel uninviting. And so that's been very difficult. A lot of comments on my body when I was in Southeast Asia, you know, a lot of people kind of gawked at me. I'm quite strong, right? I've been doing pole dance for

years. I'm quite like top heavy. And so that's another time you're going to have to come back and show us. You know, I got a lot of comments on my body, a lot of gawking at me a lot of heads turning a spin, especially when I'm in Europe, you know, a lot of people are looking at me a bit strange on trains. And you kind of get adjusted to it, which is unfortunate. But I can't let that ruin my experience. And also because there are so many kind of black travel groups and also black expat groups in most countries that you go to, you can always feel like you can touch base with people that, you know, have similar experiences to you. But yeah,

it is, I'm not going to lie, it's difficult and I hate to come on here and be like, so traveling is amazing, but actually there are some very difficult moments when you are a young black traveller. So that's what you are, A, you want to raise awareness with it and also what the solution might be when it comes to it. So many messages coming in, let's do a few more. I'm a 65 year old woman. I've travelled alone since I travelled to Eastern Canada aged 20.

My father gave me a one way ticket for Christmas. I don't know what that says, but I then hitched and greyhounded to San Diego. At 24, I did a two single-handed transatlantic trip on my own small sailing yacht. I now travel alone, sometimes with a group. This year I've been to China, Vietnam and Cambodia. Last year to Azerbaijan and Georgia, India and Morocco. Wow. That's Anne. Well done, Anne. Okay, here's another. In my 60s also, but I've wanted to travel for ages, but I couldn't find anyone who was willing and available. So I finally booked a two week tour in India, a food tour with a company that offers small group tours.

I'm so excited. I'm excited for you. This is wonderful. This Sunday the 11th, I'm about to take my first solo. So many people going this week. I'm about to take my first solo trip abroad. I'm 62. I've just retired from the NHS as a registered nurse. I'm looking forward to the silence. Most of my friends are horrified and think I should go on a holiday with my husband.

However, I'm quite capable of looking after myself. Bring it on. Yeah, I mean, there's really interesting themes there. So the age, obviously, that I can pick up identifying as a woman over 60. And I believe personally that that is probably the biggest growing sector of the solo selling a solo female travel market, because we feel, you know, we have time. We may not all be single, by the way, just going solo. Yes, exactly. So that's one thing that I kind of pick up on there, too.

There are lots of reasons why we travel on our own. And then and then choosing a small group, I think it's great if you want to start that way. And you can do that you can add on beforehand, you can add on afterwards so you can combine, you know, all those kinds of solo travel. And it doesn't have to be far flung. No, no, not at all. I mean, I love exploring the UK and Europe is obviously easy for us because, but I'm sorry I'm interested in how she started such a young age and I always think to myself what I would be like if I was traveling you know pre-internet solo where we had you know what was it the guides that you used to take with you. Of course, I would not survive. Google Maps is my best friend.

You know, it's like now we can do it all online and we're very confident, but that's a very different experience. Here is another one. I was widowed in my early 60s, just over five years ago. Along with the grief came the realisation that I would love to see more of the world, but I haven't yet found the courage to travel alone. I fear loneliness while I'm away. So while I dream of a holiday, the fear of going alone prevents me from booking anything. I'd love if this morning's woman's hour gave me some ideas and courage. So, yeah, so I would say join any community, but please feel free to join mine. Solo in style and you'll get lots of women, there's six hundred and twenty

thousand in my group, helping each other, inspiring, encouraging, sharing tips. But also think about other ways of traveling solo. You can volunteer, you can go to retreats, you can go on all different kinds of holidays where you're traveling solo, but it might be to follow a passion. That's a great way to travel alone. I will be in the Lake District in the autumn on my own and I want to walk and walk solo. I've never done it before. It's not Borneo but I am so excited and a tad anxious about my first solo adventure and I really wanted to be an adventure. Any tips? Jackie? Oh gosh well I would say obviously stay safe. I

like to plan ahead so plan ahead. I would be doing that. I don't know if you're the plan ahead Shanté, but I always like to know where I'm staying and enjoy, relax, just enjoy. I kind of want to hear, do you know, I feel like we should do this item again in like a month's time and find out how all these trips went for these lovely people that got in touch, you know, and maybe some of them made some booking. Because it's so important to like embrace the solitude as well. I always tell people to like step into that feeling of loneliness. I feel like I started to like myself more after I solo

traveled because I was truly alone for the first time in an unfamiliar space and I really got to connect and know myself, how I react in environments that I'm not used to, how quick I am at making decisions. Like I was like, gosh, I felt so much more confident afterwards, but you kind of so much more confident afterwards. But you kind of have to take that that risk. Yeah. Shanté Joseph, journalist, and we had Deborah Ives, community founder and solo and style blogger. What a lovely conversation. Thank you both for coming in.

Thank you. Thanks very much. Thanks. Keep them coming. I'll keep reading. 84844. Now, women in the north of England can expect to live fewer years in good health and health and are more likely to be unable to work due to long-term sickness and disability. They're also losing out in terms of wages compared to other areas of England. This is according to new analysis. Health Equity North academics study the latest available data to see whether there have been

improvements in the vast inequalities faced by northern women since the publication of last year's Damning Woman of the North report. I'm joined now by Professor Claire Bambera for a few minutes from Newcastle University and also co-director of Health Equity North. Great to have you with us Claire. I mean I find this you know some of the figures that they talk about so shocking. Can you give people some of the main takeaways that you saw? about, so shocking. Can you give people some of the main takeaways that you saw? Yes, thank you for having us on. Our updated report shows that on average women in the northern regions of England live two years less. Their healthy life expectancy, so years without disability, is four years less than people in the rest of England. We provide 10 to 20 percent more unpaid care and this is

worth around 400 million pounds a year if you were to more unpaid care. And this is worth around 400 million pounds a year if you were to pay for that care. And we have around 8 billion less for women's wages in the Northern regions than in the rest of the country. Most shocking is in our updated work today and at the launch of our women's charter today with the Northern mayors is that the healthy life expectancy across the

North for women has dropped since the pandemic by two years. So on average now women in the Northeast for example are getting a disability or long-term illness at the age of around 57. 57 yeah let's just stop there for a moment because that was the number that that stopped me in my tracks this morning reading about it. So an expectation to have a healthy life, you know, good health until 57. And what is, what are you seeing are the factors behind that number? I think there's a lot of issues that we face in the north, not least higher levels of deprivation and what that can mean in terms of people's

nutrition and people's access to things that are beneficial for their health. But we've also seen the fall, which is the most significant, is that the north and northern women have been adversely impacted over the last 15 years by austerity, by the Covid pandemic, both in terms of health and in terms of the economic costs of the pandemic. then the costs are living. And now they're also under disproportionate threat from the proposed welfare reforms that changes to personal independence payments. And of course, where you see a real stark disparity is between the North and the South of England. What are you calling for? We are calling for politicians nationally and locally

to take our findings seriously, to think about everything they do in terms of a gender lens, in terms of thinking about women and women in the north particularly. And as part of that, we're launching the Women of the North Charter in partnership with LIDA and with the Northern Mayors. We've got Kim McGuinness and Tracy Babin, our two Northern Mayors, are here today launching that charter with us, and we're urging all public sector, private sector businesses to sign up to that so that they embed a concern for how to improve living conditions and health for women in the North across everything they do.

And LIDAY is a law office, Solicitors, which some may be familiar with already. I do want to read a statement from the government. A spokesperson said their plan for change is reforming the NHS to get it back on its feet. So it's there for everyone, regardless of who they are and where they live. They also say they are taking radical action to shift the focus of care from sickness to prevention so that people live healthier lives for longer, regardless of their background. Do you have a time scale on this, Professor? It needs to happen now. I'm sure it will take a little bit longer than that, but I don't think those kind of vague pledges around the NHS are really going to

address any of the issues that we've found, not least because there's no mention of women and women's additional needs, women in the North in that statement from the government. So that's quite disappointing, as is their agenda at the moment, which seems in my view to disproportionately negatively potentially impact us again. Professor Claire Bramber from Newcastle University and co-director of Health Equity North. I want to return in our last few minutes to a story we covered previously. This is about a popular landmark in Dublin. It's the Molly Malone statue. You might know the song Cuckles and Muscles commemorates her. Well there was a tradition we talked

about, I put that in inverted commas, for visitors to rub her breasts for good luck. Last March I spoke to Tilly Cripwell, she's a busker who plays beside the statue. She started a campaign, Leave Molly Malone, leave her alone basically, calling for the statue to be treated with more respect, for passerbys to stop groping her. The latest development is that Dublin City Council is running a pilot scheme and have brought in stewards to discourage people from touching her. Good to have you back Tilly, how do you feel about this? Thanks for having me back. I don't necessarily agree with the shooting system.

I see it as a temporary fix to a longer term problem. Do we know what's going to happen? Because basically, Molly wears a low cut dress and her breasts are somewhat exposed. People rub them so much so that they kind of shine, the patina has kind of come off the bronze. You were looking for that to be redone, for example, and for people to stop touching them. But what are the stewards going to do? Do we know? Yeah, so I was actually by the statue on Monday, and that was the students first day there. And they were sort of going up to people who were touching the statue, telling them not to.

I hear that they were giving them sort of education on why this was being prevented. But I also heard that when, for example, big rowdy stag do groups were to come along and be sort of a bit more aggressive and a bit more emphatic about their behaviour, that then the stewards would step back and let them do that so that they don't have to face any kind of confrontation. So where is it going to go from here, Tilly? I mean, I feel like I've seen you in so many places since you spoke to us in March. Obviously, your campaign has got an awful lot of attention. Obviously, the Dublin City Council are piloting this particular scheme. Are you hopeful that what you were looking for, and maybe you want to reiterate it, will actually happen? I'm hopeful because the changes that I was calling for are changes that are actually characteristic of statues anyway,

namely putting her on a higher platform to kind of physically and figuratively elevate her, having her repatinated, having a plaque installed to explain her history. Those are things that are all already characteristic of statues and which I believe should have been installed in the first place. So I don't see any good reason for those to not be installed now. The council. I want to read a little from the council. This is Ray Yates, Arts Officer for Dublin City Council.

He told BBC Northern Ireland the following, that stewards were in place to have a conversation with people about touching Molly. They're not guards or police. It's a gentle confrontation of behaviour. He said it was a worldwide phenomenon that statues are touched or rubbed and then it becomes a custom. Some people have made a good point where we're mimicking behaviour we don't want to see in public. However, he added that at the same time, some people see no harm in this whatsoever and think it's a very trivial matter for the

council to be involved in. There's a question of damage because several thousand euros of damage would be done every few months. He says other options such as moving the statue's location, raising it on a plinth or repairing it more regularly are being considered. Yes, I heard another statement from Ray Yates, the main officer, that he said maybe we just need to accept this behaviour and that came out about yesterday I think. So while I'm still hopeful that changes will be put in place, so that bad examples are being set towards younger generations, that did make me feel a little bit defeatist and that the council don't really take it seriously.

And I haven't got those comments specifically from Ray Yates and I can't verify them, but Tilly, let's see what happens next. Thank you very much for coming on. We appreciate it. We'll keep an eye on Molly. I'll keep an eye on her when let's see what happens next. Thank you very much for coming on. We appreciate it. We'll keep an eye on Molly. I'll keep an eye on her when I go back to Dublin next. Tomorrow, join Kylie Pentelow. She'll be speaking to the 2022 BBC National Short Story

winner, Esa Beisams, about her first novel Gunk. And to mark VE Day, Kylie will also be hearing from journalist Rosanna Greenstreet, who's written a play based on a moving and surprisingly modern collection of wartime letters. That is Woman's Hour tomorrow at 10. Do join us then. And thank you so much for all of your stories that have come in about travelling solo and perhaps 2025 is going to be the year of the solo traveller. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. free speech, free enterprise, free markets. A hidden force that changed Britain forever. Popular capitalism is a crusade.

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