Woman's Hour - 08/01/2026

Episode Date: January 8, 2026

Women's voices and women's lives - topical conversations to inform, challenge and inspire.

Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good morning and welcome to the programme. At the moment, women in the UK are invited for their first mammogram between 50 and 53. And after that, it's every three years. I'm sure most of you knew that. However, one chemotherapy nurse is so concerned about the number of younger women being diagnosed with breast cancer that she's taken it upon herself to launch a parliamentary petition

to bring routine mammograms down from 50 to 40 years old. Like everything we talk about in the program, your thoughts are encouraged. And if you are over 50, do you go for your regular mammogram? We know that not everybody does. Let me know why if you don't. Also, can hormonal changes during your menstrual cycle make you more likely to gamble?

We'll be looking at a fascinating study into women with gambling addictions. author Alice Bell will be telling us about her latest book in her cosy crime series grave expectations there's murder, there's a ghost and there's wrestling and we're off to Leicester to hang out with their riot women women in punk bands and the city's not short of them there are around 27 all-female bands in Leicester

what's in the water well a lot of them only took up instruments later in life and some say that being in a punk band helps with their menopause symptoms inspired anyone? It's the beginning of a new year, usually when plans are made to start something new. So what are you picking up this year? Maybe you started drumming or playing the French horn later in life or took up another hobby. What inspired you and how has it changed your life? Let's hear your stories. Get in touch in the usual way. The text number is 84844. You can WhatsApp the program or voice noters. It's 0300-100-444. If you'd like to email the program, then go to our website and do follow us on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour, but that text number

once again is 84844. But first, two serial rapists were among 131 officers and staff in the Metropolitan Police who committed crimes or misconduct after they were not properly vetted, a review by the mess found. David Carrick was one of the UK's worst sex offenders and Cliff Mitchell who carried out a campaign of rape on two victims were among the police officers who weren't properly checked. The cases were revealed in a vetting review of the 10 years up to the end of March 2023.

Other serious crimes committed by officers and staff included drug use, violent attacks and affray. I was joined by Zoe Bellingham, former Her Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary and began by asking her what her response was to another damning report. Well, on the one hand, it's shocking, isn't it, Anita? but on the other hand, it's not surprising.

And we've seen a whole catalogue of incidents in the MET police that quite simply make us as women gasp. How could it possibly be the case that the MET police decided to prioritise getting people into policing at all costs? It's another day, I'm afraid, where that kind of precious bond of trust between policing and the public is further diminished. Can you explain for our audience what happened,

been found now. So what happened is the then government back in 2019 made a commitment to restore police numbers back to the levels they were in 2010. So they supported police forces, they funded forces to recruit 20,000 people into policing to get the numbers back up. It was called the police uplift program. We always had concerns as the HMIC, so the inspector of constabulary, that there may be a substitution of quality for getting bums on seats, quite frankly, and this clearly is what happened. But forces were given the money to bring new recruits in. And what the MET clearly did is it decided to prioritise taking that money,

bringing people in, irrespective of whether or not they'd got criminal convictions. It was a small minority who would have got through on that basis. But it is reprehensible, isn't it? that the very people that we want to protect us have come into policing to predate on women. Yeah, indeed. And the Met found that 131 officers committed criminal or misconduct offences ranging from rape to drug offences,

hate crimes and lower level infractions like being intoxicated on duty. Was this your experience during your work? It wasn't at the time, but certainly when I was an HMI, I did a report in 2017, which was called Shining a life. on betrayal. And it looked very specifically at police officers who, people who have come into policing in order to use the cloak of the uniform of police in order to offend against vulnerable victims. And publication of that report coincided with recommendations that the police had to improve their vetting processes, which clearly didn't happen. It's really frustrating.

But one of the issues that I have is that as an HMI, you can only make a recommendation. It's not a statutory power. I know lots of people listening to this who may have been hearing this for the first time will be very shocked to try and understand how this was allowed to happen. Even if there is a push for recruitment, there was also a push to diversify the force, which is obviously a good thing. But how can standards be allowed to slip is what I guess people will be thinking. I mean, they will, won't they? Your listeners will absolutely be thinking that I'm thinking exactly the same. I think we have to look at what the position of the leadership in the Met was at that moment in time.

was it not fairly obvious that if you were going to drop your requirements for vetting, there was a risk that people who had no right to be in a police uniform would get into policing. It was pretty obvious that that could and would happen. And certainly my report in 2017 showed that there were individuals who wanted to go into policing so that they could get access to vulnerable children, children and care homes, vulnerable victims of domestic abuse. And in fact, I remember one particular case where a police officer was convicted as a police officer of raping a child and the judge in the case described that individual of coming into policing

and having got the keys to the sweet shop because they'd made a concerted decision to move into policing so they could have access. So it was a known modus operandi and that in a sense makes it even more even more unforgivable that the vetting standards were dropped just in order to meet the uplift program targets. And you do wonder if this has happened or allowed to happen at the MET, which has been under so much scrutiny, could this have gone on in other forces? I mean, that's a really good question, and that's exactly the thought that crossed my mind is, I know that His Majesty Inspector of Constabulary has been asked to come in and now look specifically at the MET, but I suspect that Andy Cook, who is the chief inspector, will be saying,

actually, we can't just restrict it to the MET. There's no reason why some of these practices may not have been repeated in other forces. And indeed, I remember about two or three years ago, there was, There was a real controversy where a number of people had been recruited into policing during the lockdown period without being subject to a proper face-to-face interview. So, you know, those recruiting them hadn't seen the whites of their eyes, hadn't really tested their inclinations. Why do they really want to join policing?

What's their motivation? Not just what are their skill sets and the fact that they want to join. That is not enough. That shouldn't be sufficient to enable someone to go into policing. We really have to test individuals because it's such an important role. And as I say, Anita, I think in order to give balance to this story, 99.9% of people who are in policing do it for the right reason and get up every single day to keep us safe.

But that said, policing has to protect the public from these individuals who simply want to predate on more vulnerable victims in our society. And Zoe, if you were still at Her Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary now, what would you be doing next? I think what I'd be saying to the government is, and this was a frustration I had as 12 years, years as an HMI. I could make endless recommendations to forces, but I had no powers to ensure

that those recommendations were enacted. And I think the time has come where the inspectorate is given statutory powers to say, not it would be nice if you did this, but you must do this. And I'm subject to a regulatory regime in the health service. Now, Anita, where if I don't, as a chair of a mental health trust, act on the recommendations of the care quality commission, then not only could I'd be out of a job, I could be subject to criminal conviction. And I think actually we need to think about policing in those terms. So what should the Mets and Mark Rowley in particular be doing to restore women's trust in the force? I think Mark has come in as a reforming commissioner and he's absolutely doing the right thing, which is ensuring that he's rooting out all of the

rotten police officers. He's put on restricted duties, nearly 1,500 officers. during the time that he's been Met Commissioner, which is nearly the size of the small police force in order to actually clear out the rotten coppers and that's exactly what he needs to do. That was Zoe Billingham there and we received statements from the Metropolitan Police and Home Office. The Home Secretary Shabana Mahmood said,

abandoning vetting checks on officers was a dereliction of the Mets duty to keep London safe. Londoners rightly expect officers to undergo robust checks so that the brightest and best not criminals are policing our streets. I have asked the chief inspector of constabulary to carry out an inspection as I seek to restore trust in the force's ability to protect and serve the public. And the Metropolitan Police said in a statement, some historical practices did not meet the strengthened hiring and vetting standards of today. We identified these issues ourselves and have fixed them quickly while making sure any risk to the public has been properly and effectively managed.

It's important to highlight that the MET recruits hundreds of officers and staff every year, the overwhelming majority of exemplary character. who are dedicated to protecting the public. 8444 is the text number. Now, my next guest is a chemotherapy nurse who says she's become deeply worried about the number of younger women being diagnosed with breast cancer. She's now launched a parliamentary petition

calling for routine mammograms to start at 40 and for screening to happen every year. At the moment, women in the UK are invited for their first mammogram between 50 and 53, and after that it's every three years. Gemma Reeves has spent eight years working on a chemotherapy ward and she says she's treated women in their early 40s, their 30s and in some cases still in their 20s

and she believes earlier and more frequent screening could save lives. Gemma, welcome to Woman's Hour. So over the years you've worked in chemotherapy, tell us more about the patterns you've seen. Good morning. Well, of recent, definitely since COVID, we're treating more and more younger patients with breast cancer. and I think because there's that stigma of, you know, you're too young to have breast cancer,

patients, you know, ladies, they're not going to the GP or when they are there being dismissed by the GP, not intentionally, but they're going with breast changes or lumps and the GPs are saying it's hormonal changes or, you know, it's related to your period or it's a lymph node or it's a cyst and, you know, see if it grows, you know, hopefully it'll disappear. and come back and then, you know, in a younger patient, breast cancer can be more aggressive. So they're then going back to the GPs. It's taking them longer to then be diagnosed because the referral should have been done initially. And breast cancer doesn't define me by age. So the patterns are, you know, it's a more increase in younger patients because they're being diagnosed later. I know you've seen patients as young as 12.

and another who was 40 while pregnant. Tell me a bit more about your experience. And I'm intrigued to know what it was that actually made you want to start this petition. I just think, you know, working in oncology for such a long time, I've just noticed of recent that we're treating a lot more younger patients and approaching 40 myself with, I mean, I've had a couple of mammograms myself now. And if I hadn't have picked up a lump or something myself, I could have potentially been waiting another 13 years.

I've got I've got colleagues that have turned 50 and they haven't even had their first mammogram yet because, you know, they haven't been called. And I just wanted to make a change because we're having all these patients come in that are younger. They've got children like myself, you know, they're still trying to work and then they're having to navigate all of this while still having chemotherapy. and obviously with the side effects, it can make you fatigue, you know, lose your hair, so it affects your identity as well. And I just thought, actually, the breast screening program came out in the 1980s. And like everything, you know, the world moves. And we need to just lower the age because we are seeing younger patients. And there's no rhyme or reason to it. And I had a patient a couple of years ago.

And also, because these are similar age patients to myself and my colleagues, we build up a rapport with them and we get to know them and their family. And then when they finish treatment, that's great. But we don't hear anything from them anymore. We just look after them for a little while and nurture them and then they go. And I had a patient that had breast cancer and she was pregnant. And she, by the time it was picked up, it was already at a later stage. and sadly the outcome wasn't very good and I just I just wanted to try and make a change for you know my friends family you know for you as well because people are having to wait so much longer and we just need to make a positive change it's in the media at the moment you know Jesse Jay Davina McCall Giovanna Fletcher all these people you know they're on daytime TV programs champion you know early

detection saves lives and I'm just your you know your chemotherapy nurse from broadstairs trying to implement a change and I can't do it on my own you're not just you're not just at anything Gemma I'm going to bring someone else in here because by the way we're getting lots of reaction from the audience listening I'll read some of your messages out in a moment figures show that breast cancer has increased in all age ranges statistics from cancer research UK show that it's increased by 17% amongst 25 to 49 year olds in the years 93 to 2018 some medics believe screening should be expanded but that it could be more targeted so we can speak now to dr sasha howell who was behind the becan ray research trial which

stands for breast cancer risk assessment in younger women that was set up in sarah harding's name she was the girls a loud singer who died from breast cancer the age of 39 um dr howell welcome to woman's hour first of all do you think breast screening should be expanded to include younger women And what do you make of Gemma and her petition? Well, hello, and thank you for having me on this show. And, well, first of all, what I make of Gemma is that she's got an incredible passion, and I think she's right that I think we should be expanding screening to younger women, but probably not all younger women.

Whenever we are thinking about a screening program, we have to think about the benefits and the harms. the majority of women in their 40s, of course, won't develop breast cancer. And we now have the tools available to predict more accurately who is more likely to develop breast cancer and therefore those of the women that I think we should be screening. Tell us a bit more about the Beacon Ray trial, because you were looking at younger women. What have you found? So we were looking at women age 30 to 39, inviting them just from the GP practice to undergo a risk assessment.

That risk assessment involved questionnaire, a low-dose mammogram to look at the breast density, and a polygenic risk score, so a genetic analysis as well. We've completed recruitment of 750 women, 140 within the increased risk group, and so far 53 of those women have come through for their first mammogram. One of those women has been identified to have a breast cancer. So it's in the early stages and it's ongoing. What other work is going? on in this field? There are a lot of studies going on. Literally just before Christmas, the

Wisdom trial was published from America, which was looking at risk-adapted screening in younger women and was effectively a positive study. There's the MIPEB study carrying on now, due to reports later this year or possibly 27 in Europe. And again, we were involved with that in Manchester. So large tens of thousands of women involved in this kind of research that I'm sure the National Screening Committee will be looking out very closely. Yeah, I mean, so much research in different areas, will they all feed into one another? They will all be assessed by the National Screening Committee. The other thing just to say is that, of course, there's another issue here, which is breast density. And the screening committee are currently looking at

whether or not we should be implementing additional imaging for women with dense breasts. So I think that the petition from Gemma is fantastic and it really raises the publicity about this. We can't do one bit of this in isolation. I think we have to look at the whole screening service and try and change that for the better. Gemma, what would you say to people who argue

that screening young women isn't cost effective? Well, I mean, they can say that, but when people are having their mammograms and they're detecting the breast cancers, then it's going to be cost effective because earlier breast cancer's court is cheaper to treat than someone later down the line with more advanced cancer because you're then trying to identify a line of treatment that is going to, you know, stabilize it for an longer period of time. And with regards to the dense breast, sorry, I can't get my words out, the dense breast, I totally agree, you know, obviously with some mammograms, they can't pick up tumours because of the tissue is too dense. However, mammograms on non-dense breast can sometimes miss breast cancers. And nobody knows they've got dense breast until they go from mammogram. And then surely that should be down to the mammographer to then feedback to the reporting referer to say,

dense breast identified, please refer for alternative method of screening. I'm going to read out a couple of messages because we've got quite a few coming through. One here saying I was diagnosed after finding a tiny lump, age 42 in August last year. It was a huge shock and the consultant said she was amazed, I even found it. The cancerner said they're seeing women in their 30s and 40s in their droves. Luckily mine was stage one and hormone positive had not spread

and had been removed. I'm now cancer. free and are waiting five days of preventative radio therapy, then five years of tamoxifen. I've since heard of more and more young women being diagnosed. I feel very lucky. Someone else says, Anita, I was diagnosed at 46. I asked the nurse why mammograms don't start age 40, and she said younger breast tissue is too dense for mammograms to be effective. That's from Carolyn in Yorkshire, 84844.

Please keep your thoughts on this coming in. Gemma, is there a case for fixing the screening program we already have? we know that a third of women don't attend the screenings that they're invited to. Yeah, so with that, I sit on the fence because how up to date is those statistics? Because many people don't turn up for their appointments for many reasons. And there's like a texting thing that we use at our work. So if patients don't turn up, they then get a text. However, we have patients phone in and say that they're too unwell to come in for their appointment.

for one reason or another and then they still then get a DNA text so it's like there's a lag in the computer system also you know are there details up to date have they moved home and not updated the GP and also you know we need to take into consideration if if they live in sanit and they then get asked to go to say Ashford for a mammogram you know can they financially afford it so there are obviously the patients that just generally don't turn it up. But it's also anxiety as well. You know, if a relative or a friend has had a painful mammogram

and it's their first one, for example, they might not want to attend. So, you know, there needs to be the education as well that is not always painful. Yeah. And Sasha, to that sort of concern and anxiety, some women worry that radiation from mammograms could pose a risk, particularly if they went annually. What would you say to that?

There is a small risk because of the radiation, a kind of back of the envelope calculation would say that if you do annual mammograms for 10 years for women from 40 to 49, if you did that in 3,000 women, you might cause one cancer. So that's a sort of broad brush. So it's a very low risk. But I suppose it's always a case of risk versus benefits, and therefore we need to make sure that the women attending for the screening, the ones most like. might at least get the benefit.

Yeah. Gemma, you've contacted MPs and the Health Secretary. What's the response been to your petition so far? Well, only the response on my petition when I reached 10,000 signatures was, I mean, the opening line was we basically, you know, in a nutshell, don't intend to lower the age. I felt like it was a bit of a copy and pasted response and, you know, that they've not really sort of like looked into it.

I contacted Helen Grant, an MP from Maidstone, who champions this. And so Polly Bigganton are local and they have written into West Street. And I've emailed him as well, but he's not got that to me. I'm sure you've emailed lots of people. I have. We did ask for an interview with someone from the National Screening Committee, which decides on the programme or the Department of Health, but no one was available. Instead, we were sent this statement.

The UK National Screening Committee is reviewing screening. for younger women based on the latest evidence and we'll update shortly. We're taking decisive action to tackle breast cancer head-on from launching world-leading AI trials to support analysis of mammograms to driving forward vital research that improves care and saves lives as part of the 10-year health plan.

We're also cutting cancer waiting times, diagnosing or ruling out cancer on time for 995,000 extra cases compared to before July 2024. Does that reassure you, Gemma? Not really. I mean, I just think, you know, from the government point of view, if they, you know, I'd like to just meet with West Street in. And even if they don't lower it to 40, and I've spoken to oncologists who agree that the mammogram

should maybe be two yearly as opposed to annually, I just would like to meet with him. And, you know, from a personal point of view and from a nursing point of view, like, go spend the day at the Marsden, come and spend the day with us, meet the patients that are between the ages of, you know, 30 to 50, for example, and explain to them why you don't intend to lower it because all the people in the Parliament must have friends and family members that this will have an effect on, you know.

So basically, by them saying they're not going to lower the age or change the screening programme, you know, they're basically saying no to their friends and family. And Sasha, very quickly, you were nodding when Gemma said maybe bi-annually, if not annually. Yeah, so certainly the evidence so far is that it's probably better if you're not selecting patients to go for biannual rather than an annual screening. And that's what the US Preventive Task Force have put into place. But I think that annual is just worth pointing out that there isn't a screening service for increased risk women in their 40s in this country.

and that's women who've got a family history. So it's already there for those of increased risk. That's done annually, but that needs to be looked at as well and brought into the screening service where it's currently outside of it and run through family history clinics. Dr Sasha Hal, thank you for joining us this morning and to you as well, Gemma Reeves.

I'm sure we will be catching up with you maybe at a later date. Gemma, I have a feeling we'll be talking to you again at some point this year. I'm going to read out lots of your messages that have been coming in. Caroline in East London says I would actively encourage lowering the mammogram age. I was diagnosed with estrogen positive breast cancer. 14 and I've met lots of women my age and younger with the disease.

It took me a while to find my lump. And if I hadn't had a mammogram, it would have been, if I'd had a mammogram, it would have been picked up earlier. Holly here, age 36, morning Holly. Stage 2, invasive breast cancer was told fat necrosis and had to fight for eight months for a biopsy. We'll be getting a mastectomy this month with tamoxifen treatment for five years. Holly, best of luck.

And another message here saying breast screening for younger women than 40 is crucial. Three close friends of mine have died of breast cancer before their 40th birthdays. Many young women do not realise the risks and are not checking themselves for early signs. I'm approaching 60 and regularly check myself and have regular appointments. Please can we urge young women to do the same. And one more, mammograms, not to downplay the risk of breast cancer to young women, but you have not mentioned the routine screening stops at 71. from Penelope Johnson.

Indeed, I'm sure we will be coming back to this at a later stage, but please do feel free to keep your experiences and thoughts on that coming in. Text number 84844, and thank you for sharing your stories with us as well. Now, Send in the Spotlight is a new podcast from Woman's Hour. The next episode is out on Monday, that's the 12th, and it investigates how best to teach children with special educational needs and disabilities in mainstream schools. In the meantime, you can listen to the first three,

episodes on BBC sounds search send in the spotlight and the team want to hear from you if you work in a council and deal with EHCP assessments what's it like being on the front line what do you want people to know about the work you do and remember you can talk to us anonymously please send an email to send at bbc.co.uk or messages on instagram it's at bbc woman's hour now we turn to gambling and women researchers are investigating whether hormonal changes. No, no we don't. I've jumped a story.

Now, a story about the real-life riot women of Leicester. I do apologise. The city has seen a wave of all-female punk rock bands in the past five years. So how is this reshaping the local music scene? Around 27 all-female bands in Leicester have grown from a movement founded by Ruth Miller, known as the Loving Punk Mum.

Called the Un-Glamorous Music Project, It's enabled women to learn instruments and form bands together. Ruth died from breast cancer in 2023, but her aim to get more older women into the music industry and onto the stage has materialised. And we can talk to two of these women now. Janet, Jeanette Barry and Alison Dunn, welcome to Woman's Hour. Hi.

Hello, welcome. Janet, we just heard a bit of you in the introduction, playing the drums. You joined the unglomerous project in 2022. What made you want to take up punk music? Also, great drumming, by the way. Have you drummed always? Thank you very much. No, I haven't. No, not at all.

I'm actually normally our bass player, but in our band, I'm with such talented women that we swap instruments all the time. So I drummed on that one. I play bass, I think, sometimes. But yes, we, at the end of 2021, if I can take people back to that terrible period of COVID. and I was suffering a really bad perimenopause and menopause. In October 2021, I had a really horrible Me Too incident and I needed a way to actually deal with it constructively. And I saw an advert on Facebook that a friend had put up by Ruth, Ruth Miller, saying the unglomerous music project,

I'm looking for all women who can, for punk bands. You've got 66 days to form bands, learn your instruments, write songs and perform on International Women's Day, 2022. And she'd already booked the venues for the 8th of March. So I turned up on the 2nd of January thinking, well, you know, if I play like a little bit of guitar, I can play a few beatful songs. And I met these amazing women. And I was put in a room with for other women. And we formed Velvet Crisis. And we have been best friends since then. And it's just been an amazing journey that we've gone on. Oh, I wish I'd been in that room. Can I ask, did the purple hair exist before the punk band, before Velvet Crisis? Because I'm really,

your purple hair looks fantastic. Oh, thank you very much. Not purple. I had a blonde streak before. And I've gone purple for Christmas. Why not? I just thought, exactly. Why not? Alison, you joined in 23. What was going on in your life at the time? Well, I had started an art degree very late in life, went to art school. And one of the things I was doing was I was working in a little theatre at a pub and I went along to a gig that was put on by the unglomerous women.

And I was just in this amazing room full of positivity and love and female energy. And these women were doing their first gigs on this stage. And I was just amazed by it. thought I've got to have part of this. So that's why I joined. I think we should hear a bit from your band as well. Let's have a listen to this.

Yeah, why not? I mean, it's an airworm. I'm going to be singing it for all weekend, sped past 50, heading to 60. And that's you on vocals, Alison. Yes, well, we all three of us, Wissie McFly, Barb Dwey and myself, I'm called Fish in the band.

We all did vocals on that song. And it's really about how people say, she's looking good for her age and we don't really like that we'd just like people to stop her she's looking good that would be great so

Ruth had set up this date she'd given you 66 days Janet to get bands together what was it like getting on stage terrifying? Really? Absolutely scary in our band none of us actually wanted to be that

front person because somebody has to stand up front none of us wanted to do that And I'd been a lecturer previously, so I was used to standing up, you know, on the stage kind of thing. So I did it for our first gigs. And I was absolutely terrified. And I was trying to stop my knees from knocking. But once you get used to it, then you kind of, you work out what your moves are going to be and how you're going to deal with it.

And in our band, because we've got such a good vibe going, then when things go wrong on stage, they quite often do. do. We just vibe it through. And I think we're kind of, well, we are known for being quite chaotic, but also making it fun and we laugh at each other. Isn't that punk? Isn't that punk to be chaotic? Are you fans of the music genre punk or is it the attitude? It's the attitude really, isn't it? I mean, Boilers are definitely a punk band. Not all of the bands in the writers' collective, as it's now known, are punk bands. but they've all got the punk attitude which is you get up there, you express yourself,

you say what you want to say and you just get on with it. And people love it. You can see the women in the audience seeing themselves represented. And I think that's one of the most powerful things. I mean, we did the 66 days to your debut too. And when we went on International Women's Day,

the venue, which is Firebug venue in Leicester, was sold out and there were 300 people. There were a sea of people. I mean, it was an incredible audience for a... Who's in the audience? Well, there's all sorts of people, actually. Younger people, older people, family members, friends, men, women, everybody in between. So it's really an inclusive scene and that's what's really been the effect of the unglomerous

and writers' collective movement in Leicester, that it's opened up the music scene to a lot more people. And how has it changed the landscape of the music scene in Leicester? Oh, completely. Yeah, it's brought in. people into venues who wouldn't necessarily have gone into venues. I can say quite strongly that I probably wouldn't have walked into some of the places that we play up if I was on my own previously. But now we can walk in and we've created safe environments, but it's not only the safe environments for those who were going. It's those environments for those who are playing as well.

We get comments from bands who've been on the scene and people who've been on the scene for a number of years about how much energy we're bringing to the scene, how much more collaborative it is. And for those younger bands as well. So our band is famous for bringing along Somozes wherever we go. I mean, woman after my own heart. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So we're doing all those things to make it a really nice environment to play in, to be at, to promote. And we have lots of fun. We have a number of offshoots from writers collected now, such as Up the Duffies and Flickers. Just the joy of the names. I absolutely love it. But what's it done for you personally, Alison? What's it done for your life? It's the best thing I've ever done, actually,

and I do apologise to my children now when I say that. But it's incredible. It's really liberating. It's a really powerful thing to be up there with women and to see women in the audience and to be having that experience and to have people come up to you afterwards and say, that was great, like, surprised and amazed. And so it's about self-esteem, it's built confidence, you know, and it's brought me a massive number of friends and I've got this incredible community.

And you can ask them anything. I mean, whether it's music related or whether you need someone to fix your roof, you've suddenly got 80 women that you can ask these. things off. So it seems like it's being in an incredible community is one of the best things about it. It makes you feel connected. What a wonderful, joyful thing to hear in the first week of January. Thanks to both of you. And hopefully you'll be, all your gigs will be sold out from here and in and no doubt you'll have inspired lots of our listeners. Oh, I hope so. And me. Although my friendship group, everyone wants to be the front woman. So we'd have to battle it out.

Who's on the lead? Thanks to both you, Alison, and Janet, inspired you? Let me know. 4844 if you've got a short story that you'd like to share about being in a band. Now, we're turning to gambling and women. Researchers are investigating whether hormonal changes during the menstrual cycle could make some women more vulnerable to gambling addiction at certain times. It follows reports from women who say their urges to gamble spike just before and during their periods. The University of Birmingham and the Gordon Moody charity are launching a new study into this and whether hormone regulating medication could help with addiction.

our reporter Claire Jones has been looking into this. Claire, this is such fascinating stuff. You've been given rare access to a rehab centre in North Wales and spoken to some of the women there. What have they been telling you? That's right, yes. So at the Parkland Place Rehab Centre in North Wales, we were there at the end of last month.

And it's basically a 16-bed unit that focuses on gambling as well as alcoholism and drug addiction. The women that I met at the centre have been honestly, so honest and open about their addiction and about the struggles that they faced. While I was there, I met Kiki Marriott. She's from London and she's been battling her gambling addiction for more than 20 years. She told me how her addiction made her feel like she actually wanted to end her life. I wasn't a big bet person. I didn't have enough money. My spins were 10 piece, 20 spins. You know, they were very low money. But I was

going without food shopping. I didn't have gas. The only reason I had electric and Wi-Fi is because I needed that to gamble. I was so suicidal, so isolated, so alone. I wrote letters to the train driver to the passengers and apologized for the trauma that I was about to cause them by ending my life at the train station. But I knew that my death would have caused more trauma on other people and I just, I couldn't do it. So I went home and then I phoned Game Care's National Helpline and then they got me some gambling therapy. Your compulsive behaviours are more likely to shine bright the week before your period for me and that's when I'd make even worse decisions around that week and I think that there is a big connection between poor

decision-making and impulsive behaviour and compulsive behaviours and addiction and just a menstrual cycle. For me, it's made a massive difference in how I handle situations in those particular weeks of my cycle. I think there's a hell of a lot more work to be done when it comes to your menstrual cycle and addiction and how that can correlate to making those bad decisions. So Kiki then mentioned a menstrual cycle. So how closely does the gambling urge to relate to that time? And what happens? Yes. So researchers at the University of Birmingham are working with the Gordon Moody gambling harms charity. And basically

they're going to be establishing whether there is a link between hormonal fluctuations. So that's caused by things like periods, ovulation, childbirth. These fluctuations can also be present during perimenopause and menopause. So this study will essentially look at whether this can be

linked to gambling addiction. They say the number of women gambling in the UK and the number of women with gambling addictions is at an all-time high. These researchers will also be exploring whether hormone-regulating medication could help with addiction. They have this theory that women who are on the pill or who may be on hormone replacement therapy, because their hormones are at a more stable level throughout the month, may be less

likely to experience these severe gambling cravings. Is it disempowering to say they're a victim of their hormones? To be honest, the women that I've spoken to have actually felt quite relieved. about knowing that there's a connection between these hormonal fluctuations and their addiction. And I think it's actually answered quite a lot of questions that they have around why they feel the way they feel. And really by knowing that and, you know, knowing their addiction, knowing their behaviours, it certainly enabled Kiki and Abbey to be able to put things into place. The two of the women that I spoke to while I was at the centre, you know, spoke so openly about their triggers.

and, you know, they can now really, knowing this information, they can ensure that they have the support that they need, maybe at that certain time of the month, maybe if they're pregnant. You know, that knowledge really is power. Joining me now, thanks Claire, by the way. And you can stay there. Joining me now is Dr. Rosalind Baker Frampton,

the clinical director of Gordon Moody, which offers treatment for gambling. They've commissioned research into this, funded by the University of Birmingham. Morning, Rosalind, welcome. What first alerted you to the possible link between hormonal changes and gambling behaviours in women. Good morning, yeah, so we've got a women's only centre in Wolverhampton where we treat women for gambling harm.

And we've just noticed that lots of women come in and start their gambling behaviours around times of huge hormonal fluctuation. So this is sort of around when they start their period or when they're going through menopause and things like that. So we, and we also knew that. for other addictions, there's women are more likely to engage in risky behaviours around the time of population. This is an evolutionary thing, we think. And so we thought, well, I wonder if there's any link between gambling behaviours and the menstrual cycle. And when I started looking into it,

I found there were basically no papers out there. There was nothing that looked into it. And I thought, well, do you know what? We're perfectly placed to investigate this. You're about to begin a four-year study. By the way, I'm not surprised. There's no papers. What exactly you're going to be looking at in your four-year study? So we're going to do a sort of UK-wide survey asking women about points in their cycle and about gambling cravings and about their sort of risk-taking behaviours. And then we're also going to be investigating women who come into our treatment centre. We're going to measure their hormone levels using sweat patches. They're going to measure their moods and their cravings throughout the time that they spend with us.

They spend six weeks with us in our treatment centre and we're expecting to see that around the time of ovulation that they experience greater number of cravings. And we're also looking at whether women on birth control or sort of hormone replacement therapies, are they more stable and do they experience fewer sort of fluctuations in cravings and gambling behaviours? What does it tell us about this phase of the menstrual

cycle? Well, it's evolutionary to have around ovulation to take part in more risky behaviours because you're more likely to get pregnant. So it just shows that it's that you sort of need to be aware. And as women, I think we know this, you know, you're more susceptible to different things at different points in your cycle. And if you are experiencing problematic gambling, I think it would be helpful to know that actually this week you're probably going to be more likely to gamble greater amounts of money or you might be more likely to experience harm so actually you can regulate your own behaviour and you can recognise in yourself that this this isn't such a problem I think a lot of women feel a lot of shame and stigma around their gambling behaviours and

it's helpful to know what triggers you and what your own body is doing and how that affects what you're feeling. So I was going to say could it be managed through HRT or the pill, but you're at the beginning of your research? We don't know yet, but we do suspect that it might be able to, and it's something that we're working with Louise Newsom as well to investigate whether this is something that we can do. I mean, the other thing about it is that we're a bit concerned. It might be a public health problem. You know, women track their reproductive health data through phones and watches and even rings and so if people know that actually certain points in your cycle you're more susceptible to risk-taking behaviours that could be quite dangerous to share that data

with advertisers so interesting and I'm sure you've got lots of the listeners thinking as well thank you for this another one I'm sure we'll be coming back to once you've got your research underway we'll be intrigued to know what you find Dr Roslimb Breaker Frampton thank you and if you've been affected by any of the issues we've discussed there Help is available on the BBC Action Line website and also thank you to Claire Jones. Now, what do wrestling, ghosts and murder have in common? Well, they all feature in a new book by video games journalist turned author Alice Bell.

Her new novel, The Grapples of Wrath, is her latest instalment in her cosy crime series, Grave Expectations, in which medium-turned private investigator Claire Hendricks embarks on her first official case sets in the world of pro. wrestling with the help of ghost best friends sophie they try and work out what's real and what's fake alice who also edits the guinness book of world records gaming edition joins me now from her home in waltshire welcome to woman's hour thank you so much for having me i'm very pleased to be here congratulations on the book the third in your grave expectations series um the grapples of wrath

tell us about it uh sure yet so um i don't believe in ghosts i do respect everyone who does hugely my whole family do but I find what haunts us very interesting so I love ghosts and in this book in the series the main character Claire is sort of trying to be a bit more legit and trying to get you know proper freelance work as a medium and she's employed by the newly new head of a wrestling promotion in Brighton because his dad has just died his dad Eddie and he thinks Eddie is haunting the pro wrestling Jim. So he wants her to get to the bottom of it. And she does meet Eddie. And Eddie is absolutely convinced he's been murdered. So she's got to figure out what's going on. So bring in the freelance medium who can solve crimes. How did she get involved in solving

crimes in the first place? Oh, completely accidental. In the first book, she goes to, because I'm living in Wiltshire, I grew up here and very familiar with lovely crumbling English mansions and crumbling English families. And she is brought on to do a seance as a kind of fun Halloween treat by an old university friend and she encounters a ghost on the grounds who's been murdered

but they can't remember who they are or what happened. So she sort of accidentally feels a kind of responsibility towards the ghost and it just falls into it. That first book sounds deliciously Victorian as well. It does, yeah, yeah. I love all that kind of old gothic stuff.

It's described as cozy, crime. Would you agree? How do you feel about that phrase? It's difficult, isn't it? Because I think we all sort of, in different careers, get put in the boxes that fit us best, even if there's maybe not too much elbow room. But I would say it is cozy to me. So it's all the things that I think are cozy, you know, like eating too much, falling over, trying one's best, swearing, a bit of swearing, and wrestling in this one. And wrestling in this one. And we need to talk about the ghost who haunts. Tell us about Sophie.

So Sophie is the ghost of her best friend. And Sophie disappeared when they were both 17 and then reappeared to Claire as a ghost a few weeks later. And her disappearance is technically still an open, cold case. But because she can see ghosts now, Claire is kind of the only one who knows it's not really an open case. anymore. It's the coldest case, as it were, because unfortunately, Sophie's dead. And there's something about that relationship between a, you know, a woman in her 30s and her teenage best friend? Mm. I think in this case, you know, what Claire is sort of haunted by is herself, right?

It's a kind of, it's a bit sort of the millennial condition to be an adult, but always sort of treated a bit adolescent. And Claire finds it very difficult to sort of grow and grow up because she's always got this kind of nasty teenage kind of girl in putting things into the conversation. But it's quite fun to write that, I have to say. I bet. Claire is employed to exercise a ghost from the wrestling gym,

that of the former owner, as you mentioned, but it's not easy. It's not as easy as that. Why? And could you read a bit for us? Sure, yeah. it's well it's not that easy because with wrestling it's really hard to I'm talking about professional wrestling here which we call sports entertainment so you know with things like football you can get epic highs and lows and stories that emerge organically with professional wrestling they just don't leave that story to chance so it's all these amazing feats of acrobatics but it's all in service of telling a story it's very id it's all you know and quite Shakespearean So because wresters are always putting on a front and they're always putting on a show,

she's not really sure if she's talking to a character, if she's talking to the real person. But I love wrestling and I think more people should give it a go because it's like a soap opera but told with athletics and, you know. I mean, I don't mind a bit of wrestling, but we'll hear from, do a reading from the book and then you can sell wrestling to people who may never have experienced it. So this part, Claire is watching wrestling for the first time,

so she has a bit of an experience at her first ever wrestling show and she's watching a tag team match. Pink Champagne versus the Bonnie McBride's was the match where Claire sort of understood why people enjoy wrestling. The female McBride could perform acrobatic flips that were almost balletic. Guy launched himself from the middle rope like a cannonball

and at one point Ruby sprang over all three ropes and onto a McBride to force a win by counting him out on the floor. It was athletic and brutal, but strangely grace. full at times, like the way an Olympic diver seems to hang in the air and you're fooled in believing they might be able to fly until they crash into the water. Except that the wrestlers weren't crashing into water, they were landing on almost solid ground and doing it in such a way that they didn't get seriously hurt, but acted like they were hurt a bit. The contrast between the death grip tight hold that the two tag teams had on their presentation and the little sad clown that Lila

had been in the show before was night and day. Why did you want to set this book in the field of pro wrestling? Well, as I said, it's a uniquely dramatic kind of world where the professional front and the personal front can often be one and the same. So there was a booker who was a very successful kind of pro wrestling promoter called Jerry Jarrett in the 70s, 80s, 90s. And he had a sign in his office that said, issues draw money which means if two wrestlers really really personally dislike each other

you should make them fight in the ring because that will make it a better match and there's a big famous promotion I mean the most famous is WW but there's one now called AEW where famously a couple of years ago the several of the vice presidents of the company got into a physical fight backstage but was it real? the other wrestling talent. But was it real or was it not? Yeah. We're a long way off from Big Daddy and Giant Haystacks, though.

It's all become very... Indeed, it's much more slick and kind of TV ready and bright white teeth these days. And lots of women involved as well, which we like. Yes. Where does your interesting crime come from? Where does your interesting crime come? Sorry, yeah. I'm sorry about that.

it's kind of I didn't grow up watching Giant Hay Sacks it's more because I worked in the video game world for some reason there's a big crossover between video game fans and fans who like pro wrestling

and so I just sort of absorbed it through osmosis over the years because I was always talking about it and what about crime? Oh that I mean I just grew up reading Agatha Christie and Sherlock Holmes and I loved all that sort of stuff

and listened to all the books on tape when I was little because I was scared of monsters under the bed but I thought if they thought Sherlock Holmes was there with me they wouldn't come out and get me that's very good I quite like that idea and you set your books in places that you've lived in so we've had Wiltshire which is where you're at now

and you were in Ireland you were in Cork and this book is Brighton yes because I lived in Brighton for a number of years Yeah, I'm a terrible hack with no imagination, so I just look out the window. Hardly, I'd say the absolute opposite. And are you planning the next book, Ellis? You're, I'm writing the fourth book now, which is going to be about witches. And then the fifth book is going to be solving Sophie's murder.

Oh, exciting things to come. Oh, we look forward to it. Thank you so much for joining me this morning to talk to me about your new book, The Grapples with Wrath, Alice Bell. And it is out now. Thank you. Thank you so much. I'm going to tell you about tomorrow's program, but before I do, I'm going to read out a few of your messages

because we've got lots of them coming in. Some on breast cancer saying the petition is so important. Vital, my daughter was diagnosed at age 39. Her sore back was treated with painkillers. Her doctor said she was too young for breast cancer. When she was eventually diagnosed, it had metastasized into her bones. And she died in August last year,

leaving two young children. Our hearts just break. I am so sorry to read that. but thank you for getting in touch to share that with us. And also when saying my daughter was diagnosed with breast cancer at 30, she's a yoga teacher, doesn't drink or smoke is a vegetarian. And she has had a full of mastectomy, chemo and radiation. It's been absolutely heartbreaking to watch her go through it.

I'm sure that will be something we will come back to at a later stage in the program. But also on Riot Women and Punk bands, Carmen from Saltburn has been in touch to say, we want to give a shout out to the Saltburn Sirens an all-female choir that belt out blondie, cranberries, dusty Springfield and more rebel women. There is no feeling like joining voices and howling together. Join me tomorrow for more howling on Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

Join us again next time. Just put your headphones on and immerse yourself in a gripping thriller. A guy you've never seen before offers you 10 grand to look after an envelope and you take it. Are you crazy? A chilling mystery. Your lady. There. Can't you see her?

A heart-stopping adventure. I'm going to kiss you now. I'm Kim Ketrault, and you can hear me in Limelight from BBC Radio 4, where drama serials takes center stage. I know that it wasn't an accident. They were murdered, weren't they? Search for Limelight on BBC Sounds. Are you scared?