Woman's Hour - 08/07/2026

Episode Date: July 8, 2026

Women's voices and women's lives - topical conversations to inform, challenge and inspire.

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Hello, this is Newellamogh. and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the program. Well, today we have Emma Greed. She is the British businesswoman who is one of the world's richest self-made women. No small feat. In her book, start with yourself. Emma shares how she believes women need to reframe their thinking to be successful

in so many interesting ways, including how important your romantic partner is in helping you achieve your career goals. But staying with partners, we're also today going to talk about when your partner becomes your ex. If you are divorced, what did you do with your wedding ring? Dumped it, donated it?

Or maybe it's lying in some dusty corner of a drawer somewhere. I want to hear the stories. You can text us 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email us through our website. You can send a WhatsApp message or a voice note. That's 0-3-700-100-444. And on most smart speakers, you can say, Alexa.

Ask BBC Sounds. send a comment. Because what about redesigning that wedding ring into a divorce ring and popping it on your middle finger? We're going to hear why some women are taking that course of action. Also, in a moment, we'll hear more about what the government plans to do to increase foster care places in England and the stigma surrounding termination of pregnancy for medical reasons. We will hear one woman's story this hour that also coming up. But let me begin with the announcement plans to boost support for foster carers. So the aim is to encourage more people to provide homes for vulnerable children in England.

It is the latest step in the government's drive to recruit an additional 10,000 foster carers. You might remember they announced that back in February. Let me bring in the BBC Social Affairs editor Alison Holt. Good to have you with us, Alison. So tell us a little bit more about these plans that are being announced today. Well, this is part of a rethinking, a restructuring of. children's social care. It's been led by the children's minister, Josh McAllister. Now, you might remember a few years ago, he did a big report for the then conservative government looking into

what needed to be done to make children's social care work better, we were seeing record number of children being taken into care, very high costs associated with residential care homes, which don't provide great outcomes for children anyway. So, that's the backdrop. Fostering is one of his key moves to try and shift the dial in terms of children's services. And there have been shortages of foster carers for a long time. He wants to recruit another 10,000 people into fostering. So these moves are meant to make it more attractive. One of the things they're talking about today is they're starting a consultation on how they simplify the fostering rule book. Examples I was giving.

and was that at the moment you have to check when you take a child to get a haircut, for instance, and they want to get rid of that sort of bureaucracy. There are also four new fostering hubs, and these are meant to provide a lot of support for foster carers as they go through that journey of bringing a child into their life. Those new places will be in the black country, North London, Southeast London,

and that will bring the total nationally to 14, eventually the idea is to have that across England. And what do they do, for example, those hubs? Well, the foster care hubs, I went to visit one in West London, and it was based around a fostering family, and they provided support for other foster families. They described it as being a bit like an extended family, where in other families you might be able to call on an aunt, an uncle, a grandmother, a grandfather. this provided people who were going through the same things as that foster carer and those foster

children and allowed them to come together. So the support was a whole range of things from, you know, days out, help with childcare, a bit of advice. But the key thing they told me was that it made them feel like they belonged. It gave the children a sense of belonging because they spoke to other children who were fostered. And the idea is to make that available for all fosterers and it would start from the point when they applied so they'd become part of that family if you like from the start all the way through the time the child was being cared for by them. So continuity which of course we've heard from people who have been cared for that that can be something that can be incredibly disruptive if it doesn't continue or incredibly

helpful if it does. What is the home again scheme? Ah now the home again scheme is it's a very which is set up to help the most vulnerable children. So there are roughly 1,400 children who are seen as being most at risk, having the most complex needs. And those children quite often, too often, end up in unregulated, in legal children's homes, a long way from their own homes because local authorities can't find anywhere nearer for them. to stay or anywhere else that will take them.

And the Home Again program is aimed at trying to get to them before that happens. So most of the children are known to children's services beforehand. And the idea is that, for instance, the social worker or a teacher might be able to say, I am really worried about this child. And the Home Again team will go in, they'll do a full assessment rather than lots of different assessments by health or education or youth justice, they'll do one big assessment. And then the key point is that they can access support so they can say, right, you need some therapy with a psychologist or your social worker needs to be able to spend much more time with you. And the hope is that by doing

that they will prevent those children reaching the point at which they're being removed from home in, you know, often really, really difficult and troubling circumstances. Let me turn to the local authorities, Alison. That's going to change in the way that they work together. Tell me some details on that. Yes. Well, this is a reorganisation or it's being encouraged as a reorganisation of local authorities. These are regional care cooperatives. There are a couple already operating.

And by the end of the year, there will be five new ones. and they bring together local authorities and community or voluntary organisations to work together to make sure that there is sufficient provision for children in that area. So enough emergency children's homes, enough foster carers. And the idea is that by working together, they will make sure that children don't have to go so far. They'll cut out the need for unregistered care homes. local authorities have increased the number of children they are sending to those places. And the hope is it will also cur profiteering by some children's home companies.

Because again, the costs associated with this have become huge. I mean, in 2023, 24, the National Audit Office said that residential care costs reach £3.1 billion and costing an average of $380,000. thousand pounds for each children's home place in that year. Yes, I remember we did speak about that in depth on Women's Hour as well. You can go back and listen to that episode, particularly on unregulated care homes. A couple more before I let you go, Alison. The Room Maker Scheme.

Yeah, this is what they're announcing today is that they've got grant funding for this. It is a scheme whereby, say someone is thinking, of being a foster carer, but they don't think their house is big enough or they need to renovate a room to be able to bring that child into their life. And this is a grant, this is money that people will be able to apply for to help them make the changes to their home so that they can foster. And the hope is that will again encourage more people to take on fostering. And of course, there will often be a concern that people have about not having the room. even though they may have the will.

We've alluded a couple of times to a lot of these children will be very vulnerable. What about the most vulnerable within these plans as the government moves forward? Well, the hope is that the Home Again program will target those children by providing support early because they can then prevent them reaching that point of ending up in children's homes or unregistered children's homes.

But the whole shift in children's services at the moment is to try and intervene earlier, to offer family support earlier so that they don't reach that crisis point that ends up with a child being removed. I understand. Also, some changes will be happening to the way that Ofsted inspects children's services.

What are we expecting there? So again, they are shifting the way they inspect local authorities to reflect the reforms and the change in priorities that focus on the family and children and others. But one of the key areas is around unregulated children's homes. Now, the point to make here is all children's homes should be inspected and registered with Ofsted. So the fact that children's homes are being used, which haven't been through that registration process, is, you know, something I think everyone involved wants to cut out if they possibly can. So Ofsted is what says it wants to see that eradicated. And what it is going to do is it will, when it inspects the local authority, it will look at whether or not it is using unregistered children's homes. If it is, that will affect the rating the local authority.

get. So it might be, for instance, awarded urgent improvement or needs attention grades. And it will look at, you know, whether it's doing its best to try and change that. But nevertheless, there is that warning that it will affect the rating of the local authority. And perhaps the most important question of all. How quickly will this happen? Can it benefit children who are in the care system right now? I would say that there is certainly, certainly from the Children's Minister, there's a real drive on this. This is something he's passionate about. It will be a mixed bag. So some of the programmes, like the Home Again program for the children with the most complex needs, applications for the pilot scheme for that begin in October of this year,

we know that the new fostering hubs, we expect those. to be in place by the end of this year. So we will see some things happening relatively quickly. Some of the bigger shifts in change, you know, these are levers that are being pulled. So it will take time. But I think the aim is for families to start seeing the benefits soon. And in particular, we'll know whether or not this is working if we see an increase and uptick in the number of people applying to be foster carers.

Alison Holt, thank you so much, the BBC Social Affairs Editor. If you would like to go back and listen to that other episodes that we talked about, foster homes and particularly unregulated homes, it is the 4th of February. I learned a lot during it. Maybe you will too. I have a board full of calls about what you did with your wedding ring after you got divorced. Here's one.

I threw my wedding ring and engagement ring when I walked out. the door after 10 horrible years. The elation of driving away to a new dawn was elating. I've never looked back and have lived an extremely happy life and the joy of a new loving marriage lasting 32 years. Another one I think went into the, where did I see

this? I threw my wedding ring into Oxford Canal walking home after a great party. The matching engagement ring was made into a diamond pendant using the gold from the setting and I wear it to celebrate my freedom. So just some of the stories that are coming in. What did you do with your wedding ring?

after you got divorced. 84844. If you'd like to text. Now, Emma Greed, where to begin? She co-created the brand's Good American and Skims with the Kardashian-Generes, making her one of the world's richest, self-made women, but had a host of other successful enterprises before that. Some of her latest ventures include,

her podcast, Aspire with Emma Greed, and she's written, Start With Yourself, a new vision for work and life with so many fascinating insights and how to reframe your thinking. She made history as the first woman of colour to serve as a judge on ABC's Shark Tank. She's also been a guest dragon

on the BBC's Dragon's Den. Oh, and she's a philanthropist and she has four children with her romantic and business partner, Yens. Emma, welcome back to Women's Hour. Thank you so much for having me. You forgot like, you know, East Londoner, which is my favourite thing that goes on that

exhausting resume of mine. I knew that was going to come out. I knew that would come out. That's where we should start. I mean, maybe it is the answer. answer to my first question, which is reading your book and I loved it. And there's something on every page that I feel we could probably speak for a long time about on women's hour because these are issues or challenges that come up again and again. But let me begin with you. You say you are programmed differently to other women. And so with that, you can show them the way. Why were your factory settings different, do you think? You know, it's so funny. I wish I had a simple answer to this, but some of us are just wired differently. And I think when you grow up, in East London, there is this kind of distinct understanding from a very young age

that no one is coming to save you. If you want something, if you want different, which was really me, I wanted different from the circumstances that I saw all around me and different from the women that I saw all around me, I really knew that I would have to do it myself. And I really imagined as a kid that I would

quite literally, like, be able to work my way out of my circumstances. So I was like, I'll get a paper round, I'll work in a deli, I'll sell fireworks, I'll do whatever I need to do to get me to somewhere else. You were a grafter from the get-go. From the get-go. You're reminding me of a quote in your book by Estelle Lauder.

I didn't dream about my career. I worked for it or something. I'm paraphrasing slightly. But you plan to write a business book, which it is, but you've also written extremely about your personal situations as well and everything that led you to this point. You start with your upbringing in East London. Your mother was a single parent raising four girls.

Though reading it, you really helped raise them too. Tell me a little of what that was like. and also perhaps some of the lessons from that experience. Well, you know, the funny thing is I never felt like it was any kind of imposition for me. Really? Yeah, because my mum went out to work every day. And we have a joke in our family, you know, like my mum's the dad, I'm the mum and we've got three kids together.

But that was just the expectation of me, right? She had to go out and do the work. Then I would need to help around the house and I'd need to help get the kids to school and do the pat lunch boxes and iron the shirts and all the things. So it felt much more just like doing what I needed to do to help my family. And I actually think that was a huge

or has been a huge kind of foundation of my success. I've just done whatever I needed to do to get through the moment. And I saw a mum that got up every single day, left the house at seven, put on a suit, didn't come back until late. And so being somebody that was going to reimagine their circumstances, I put that together with like, you've just got to really, really work hard.

And my mum was an amazing example of that. But I never felt sorry for myself. And you were like this little entrepreneur. I'm thinking of you on your bicycle doing their newspaper around, but also obsessed with fashion, took on internships as well that were unpaid. You talk about in the book needing to bring unpaid internships back. Some people might argue it's exploitative. Hot button. Hot button.

But number one. I can only talk about what's worked for me, right? And the reason that I think unpaid internships, and let's be clear about this, right, We never want to have exploitative circumstances for anyone. But for me as a kid who knew no one, didn't have a foot in the door. The way to get proximity to incredible companies and to opportunities was to say, and I talk about this all the time, to go around with my hand up, I'll do that. Let me have a go.

Can I get a foot in the door? And so I wrote hundreds of letters. And of course, no one was going to pay an unskilled, fairly uneducated kid. But if you said you'd work for free, you could get there. And I think what's interesting is how many relationships still to the, this day, you know, I have, because of those unpaid internships, because I was able to get my foot in the door of fashion companies. And, you know, I worked for this incredible concierge company called quintessentially. Tonight, I remember them. Right? I'm going to a party that Ben E. L. Elliott is at tonight. And I just feel like it's so interesting because I made that relationship, which has been a lifelong business relationship through an unpaid internship. And so for me, it's really about how do you create that proximity and allow people that

perhaps wouldn't have the opportunity otherwise to get their foot in the door. And that's why that allowed me. To be in that room. You know, I should also tell people, it's kind of a workbook. Like there's exercises within it, which I loved. Well, the book is about self-leadership, right? You can't write a business book for women without talking about what holds us back, without talking about emotions, without talking about the social conditioning that women have

throughout their lives. And so I had to write something that was broadly adjudy. our behaviour as much as it was about the success I've had in business. What's holding... I kept kind of coming back to it and thinking, oh, we could talk in depth about that or that. But you do... You're very focused, as I think people will even hear

from the few minutes, if they're not familiar with you, before today. You have exercises in the book for people to plan their goals. You are a September baby in between the cusps of Virgo and Libra, I believe. And you consider your birthday, your new year, so to speak. and you plan for ahead and this is something you've always done. Why do you think people need to be that rigid or specific in what they want to achieve? I think it's about what you want and getting closer to your own goals. And I think that so many of us say, I want to be happy.

I just want more. And unless you're concrete about what that means, I think it's really hard to get there. The other thing is, and again, speaking from my own experience, I've had to give a lot up. And so you have to have an idea of what it is that you want and what you're willing to give to get there. and I feel like when I'm able to plan it all out, it's not so much just about putting things into the universe, manifestation, vision boards. It's actually saying, well, what's got to give?

What do I not get because I'm trying to do X, Y and Z? Because you talk about the trade-offs and you talk about work-life balance. A, work-life balance is a myth, but also the trade-offs, what are you prepared to do to get to where you want to go? And you have sacrificed a lot as you talk about going through it, but having great success as well.

You have chapters with old thoughts and new thoughts. Shall we talk about money? Do you know what? It's my favourite subject. Okay, let's talk about it. It is my favourite subjects, and it's one of the great avoided subjects for women specifically. And I'm not talking about your daily interactions. I'm talking about the big picture of your life.

Understanding the most fundamental mechanics that all of our lives run on, right? Most of us pay rent or we have a mortgage. Most of us want to plan for a retirement. most of us want to earn more money and be rewarded for what we do. But our inability to speak about it fluently, our inability to want to have those conversations actually keeps women locked out of a lot of the opportunities where they're going to get more money.

Why do you think because you give these examples, and I've had them too, that you meet a man and he'll tell you exactly what he's worth or what he's bought or what he spent his money on or how he made his money, how much he's earning, but that women don't do that in the same respect. Absolutely no stigma for him, right? No one's like, oh my God, there's John again talking about his money.

But the minute a woman does it, she's treated differently. Case in point over here. And you're pointing at yourself. She's pointing at herself. Because, you know, it's really important because for some reason we've decided that it's inelegant or that if you're a woman that talks about money, that she's full of herself. That if you're a woman that talks about money, that the idea is somewhere that you can't do meaningful work and care about money, that you can't do things that have, you know, deep roots in them and care about money.

And I actually say absolutely, yes, you can. And you shouldn't be outsourcing any of your conversations and your decision making about money. You have to take responsibility. And I was thinking these are conversations we've had before here, but in the sense of you say you should be talking with your friends about money and family about money and what you're earning or that transparency there. Well, how do you know you're underpaid if you're not having a conversation about it, right? And again, we've all been socially.

condition to make sure we don't talk to our work colleagues about money, that we don't talk to our best friends about money. It's like religion, politics, money. And actually, what happens with men is that they're social about money. They talk about it on the golf course. They talk about it during a game of football. Go England. I'm literally obsessed with the football. Every time I say the word football right now, I just, all I can think about is that game on Saturday night. But my point is, if we don't talk about it, it will elude us. And somehow, talking about money, not only sets us free, but it allows us to say, well, wait a minute, what should I be thinking about because there's different stages of our lives. And when you're in your 20s and your 30s, your 40s,

you're having a different conversation to when you're in your 50s, your 60s and your 70s. But you need to prime yourself for those conversations. Okay, we need to get into some of this. You have observed on your teams that many women are overly concerned with the needs of other people that strikes you as a uniquely female trait. Fairness of pay is one. They're more worried about, like, is the team doing okay? I can't be paid that much more than that other person, that even if they are more junior to me. Tell me how women should, as you see it, confront those emotional concerns.

Well, here's the thing. As women, we are wired for empathy, right? We want to look after everybody. That nurturing is not something that we need to do away with. But I think that we have to hold the truth, that two things can be true at once. You can both be an empathetic leader and care about the needs of your team

and advocate for yourself. that we don't need to uncouple those things to be a person that is self-advocating. And so what I say is like, great, care about your team, but don't do it at the detriment of yourself. And that's where we have to get rid of this scarcity mindset, the idea that if somebody over here is getting more, it means that somebody over there is getting less because that's not how it works. And if you look at men, you can see that. It doesn't mean because Bill is taking something more that John is getting something less. So we've got to do away with the scarcity mindset.

That is what is hampering us. It may come because in certain rooms or spaces there are less women, and so that scarcity mindset infiltrates instead of one of abundance. And that is true. And that's why I say we have to hold two things to be true at once, because for so long there has been only one woman that can get to the chop job. There has been only one opportunity for women. But that won't change by us sitting back and accepting the status quo.

We have to be the ones that are going to change it. We have to be the ones that say, actually, there should be more space. And we've got to constantly be marching forward. And what concerns me is that sometimes we can be a little passive about the things that really need to change and get all hit up about somebody else's situation over there because it's easier. It's easier to care about someone else than it is to say, I'm going to start with myself. And that's what my book's about. That's why it's a New York Times bestseller. That's why it's a Sunday Times bestseller.

And when you read it, I think that most people are getting this book in their hands and they're going, oh, my goodness, I see that in myself. I am a people pleaser, but you can't be a people pleaser and a leader. Right, let's get on to you. You mentioned the 20s, like when you're 20 or 30. Oh, those old days. Yes. So I'm going backwards and forwards here. You're now mother of four children. You write about that time very beautifully. Also having a painful time to conceive with IVF, miscarriages and eventually surrogacy for your twins. Congratulations on all your babies. Thank you. And we often talk about fertility on this program. But you know where my ears pricked up your thoughts on egg freezing and also when is the right time? I put that in very first. to come is to have children while trying to nurture a career. Let's talk about it. Let's talk about you. You're hitting all the hot buttons. We should just line them up and hit them all. Two, three. Hit them all at once. Hit them all at once. Well, what I talk about in the book is my own

experience. And I had my first two children naturally. And I had a lot of infatility in the middle, losses, eptopic pregnancies, miscarriages, and then ended up having a surrogate. And what I understood is that I think for my entire 20s and the early part of my 30s, I did everything I could to avoid ever getting pregnant. Because as a career woman, we're always told, wait, wait, wait. And what I realized is that actually we have to be really honest about what our needs are and what our wants are. And I had always decided that children were something that I would wanted, but I was willing to put it off. And when the kind of time came, it was no longer my choice. I was unable to conceive. And so I think that there has to be more of a level of

honesty. And I think that corporations that push the benefits of egg freezing, are doing that at a disservice of winning. Because actually what happens, there's so few women that actually are able to get pregnant that way. And so what we have to do is take the decision making into our own hands, not think about it as something that we can constantly push down the line because the truth is there is a window, right?

There is a time when you are most fertile, when you are most able to get pregnant. And if you decide to put something else in front of that and push it down the line, the decision may no longer be yours. So it's more about actually saying, as opposed to what the common wisdom is, what is right for me? What are the things that I really want? But I suppose a lot would say, because the 30s might be the time, that you would advocate to have children, perhaps, if you're talking about a more fertile window or maybe late 20s, if you've got your career a little bit underway.

But people will say, I haven't got my career done. I haven't got my money. I haven't, you know, I'm not able to provide for a child yet. But there is this window or this biological clock that's ticking. Well, there's a biological reality, right? And I think, again, what we have to understand is that the stars don't all magically align. They don't all magically align if you have a baby at 38, if you have a baby at 34, if you do it at 42, if you do it at 22. The reality is when you have a kid, it will interrupt your life no matter what time you choose to do it.

But what I want to say is let's make it your choice as opposed to something that you push down the road, thinking that there is some like magical window because that's not truth of believer. Which I suppose I should also underline with your book that you talk about, yes, the system. should change, but don't wait for those systems to change. Kind of try and take the power into your own hands wherever you can. I think that we have to work with the world as we find it. Right? We can work and advocate for change and we can look at what do we want to be different.

But to try to fool ourselves into thinking that there is something else, that there's some, you know, magical moment is just, it's foolish. Right. Let's talk about working from home. Button number four or five. You've written at Spark Debate. that working from home can be career suicide for women. I was really interested in your thoughts.

You're very concerned, you say, about putting women back in the home that have wanted to leave it. But surely flexible working enables working from home, for example, some women to work in a way that they wouldn't be able to otherwise. Absolutely. And I've never shut down flexibility. I run huge companies with hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of female employees. I leave the office every single day at 5 o'clock

and I've not missed a parent's evening or a moment where my kids have been in a race or had a show or anything like that. I think that most of us work in much more flexible environments than we did 20, 30 years ago. The point is that post-COVID, there are, I think, a lot of people that took advantage of a new way of working

that perhaps lessened some of the burden of having to go into the office, having to meet the requirements of the office. And in my own experience, again, and I'm not an expert, I'm just a woman who's built big companies. In my experience, what I see is the promotion of women being slowly stifled and that not happening to men because men came back into the office.

Women were left with the caregiving. They were left with the burden of both working from home and looking after their children. And as a result of that, the proximity that comes from working in an office environment and the ease of transaction, people seeing what you're doing, is all taken away. So I think that what we have to do is having an awareness. of our decisions. Nobody's saying that it's a bad idea to work from home. But what you can't do is have ambition that is sky high and keep yourself out of visibility. That is toxic. That is not going to help women progress. And I have to be really clear about this because I'm a really ambitious

person who has made hundreds of millions of dollars and I have an purview over a lot of women working at different levels in my company. So this is much more about what do you see actually happening across the spectrum of women's work as opposed to an individual idea. That's so interesting. Yeah. Okay. So it's kind of thinking about the sisterhood at large instead of the individual per se. Yeah.

Let's be honest. Let's have a level of honesty because we talk a lot about what flexibility and work from home culture gives us. But we don't talk about any of the rigidity of it. And if you just put work aside, we should also be thinking about our social lives, our ability to meet people, our ability to have. daily interactions with people. That is also really reduced

when you're sitting in your living room on a computer all day. Let me go back to some of your businesses. You've made so many products that have been huge successes. I mentioned good American and skims, but I need to ask you one question about the decision. Button number five coming up, be ready, to create shapeware for your face. So for those that aren't familiar,

it retailed at 52 pound, it was a new mask. It sold out in under 24 hours. it was basically to provide a sculpted jaw line as it's marketed. Split the internet. Not for the first time, I'm agreed. Did you do this? We love a little internet breaking moment. Well, there definitely was.

Some hailing it as the future of non-invasive contouring. Others contemning it as dystopian and even mentioning the handmaid's tale. For people who don't understand it, it's almost like... That little bandage for your face. That's a really good way of describing it. That's why she's the saleswoman and I am not.

Are you concerned, though, with something like that of because of all the various products you made and so many are about body positivity or for women, for example, that couldn't find genes in their size previously. But with something like this, a face bra to quote Ali McBeal back in the day for those that remember. Ali McBeal, they're taking it back. Are you concerned about property from women's insecurities? Absolutely not, because here's the thing.

We have a company that is really based on creating solutions for women, right? So if you are, let's say you've gone for a mastectomy and you no longer have nipples. We make a bra with nipples embedded in it so that you can wear a t-shirt and have a bra that looks that way. We make solutions if you're wearing a dress with a split up it, like a one-legged shapewear. We do a lot of innovations. But shapewear for your face? Shapeware for your face. If you don't like it, you know what?

Don't buy it. Like nobody's forcing you. But of course we're going to make innovation. The entire world and companies are built on creating innovations, doing things that nobody is going to ever do, and also creating news and noise. That is an amazing product, if not even for the product and for what it does, for the fact that two years later you're sitting here asking me about it. It's not a problem because if people don't like it, they just don't buy it. But you don't think that it creates perhaps a hunger for something that is not necessary? No.

No. I think that the world is full of invasive procedures and ways that you can alter your appearance and things that perhaps you might not want and then you don't do them. But does that mean that we shouldn't create them? That there should be no market for them? Absolutely not. I think that we have to have a little bit more nuance and a little bit more choice. And nobody is like holding a gun to your head telling you you need to buy anything.

I think that just comes back down to choice. And when we remove the choice for me to make it, for you to buy it, What does that say about where we are as women? We're nowhere. Some may disagree. Really interesting to speak with Emma Greed. We could speak for longer. Start with yourself is her book, a new vision for work and life.

And of course she has the podcast to Spire with Emma Greed as well. Great speaking to you. And to you. Thank you so much for coming in. Thanks for all your messages, 84844. I will get to what you've done with your rings after the divorce. But listeners, we also need your input on the following, because listener week is coming up soon.

When we hand the reins of the programme to you, Maybe you remember the work of the Thatcher Daisy and the Thatcher Anna, her wife, who were working across roofs in Devon. The amount of bugs and butterflies and birds we get to see from up here is, yeah, lovely. A lot of the older generation males, I just don't think they understand it when they see us up here. You can see their brain ticking and they just, they don't really understand. But then it can, yeah, it can go the other way, can it? And a lot of single females would probably rather have us on the roof for whatever reason. It was a fascinating insight into a world that many of us know nothing about.

If there's something you're doing that you think we should know about, get in touch in all the usual ways. You can text Woman's Hour 84844 on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. Or you can email us through our website. Love to hear your ideas. Keep them coming and we will read them all and then create some fabulous programs in just a few weeks time.

How did a boycott Jimmy become a billionaire from posting videos? On good, bad billionaire, we're going to find out how the world's most popular YouTuber Mr. Beast made his fortune. He's buried himself in a coffin for days. Counted to 100,000 on camera. And even recreated squid games all in an attempt to go viral on the internet. But it all started when he gave a homeless man $10,000. So is he a philanthropist reshaping capitalism? Or is he just the king of the attention economy?

Find out on good bad billionaire. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Now, let me move on to a discussion that deals with very sad experiences. I want to let you know. And some of you may find some of the details distressing. Because at least 5,000 pregnancies a year in the UK end due to termination of pregnancy for medical reasons. So it's a very sad subject. There is a persistent taboo about it

that can mean that families keep the experience secret, worried about other people's reactions. The stigma and silence around it does mean that people can feel incredibly alone in their grief and often feel excluded from wider baby loss community discussions which can increase their isolation. July is bereaved parents aware in this month and I'm joined by the grief coach

and bereaved mother Tanya Wilkinson. Good morning. Good morning. Nula, it warms my heart to be here and having this conversation with you. I'm so glad you're here as well and thank you for coming in. We have Amina Hattia as well, who is a co-midriffory manager at the Baby Loss Charity. Tommy's good to have you with this as well, Amina. Good morning. Good morning. Hi, Nula.

I mentioned the term termination for medical reasons. I know some prefer to call it baby loss for medical reasons. Can you explain what it is, Amina? So termination for medical reasons or baby loss for medical reasons is pregnancy and baby loss that follows a serious medical diagnosis. Many families, what that in reality means is that families have already began to imagine life with their babies, started making plans for the future, you know, building hopes and expectations for the pregnancy and then sadly receive a diagnosis that turns their world upside down, you know. be either because conditions in baby have been diagnosed or because it is the safety of mum at that point that is being considered. Very, very sad. Tanya, if it's okay, can you share your experience with us? I do understand you'd gone for your 20 weeks scan, so you're quite far along. And I'm so sorry that you had to go through this experience. Oh, thank you so much, Nula.

We were cruising through pregnancy, and the dominant narrative in our society is you reached 12 weeks, and you're in the clear. It's smooth sailing from that point. So I was really unprepared that at 20 weeks, anything could be diagnosed at that point. The concept of an anatomy scan had obviously gone straight over my head. So at the 20-week scan, we went in,

and we were presented with the devastating diagnosis. This was in a second scan that we then had to have with a consultant, that said that our daughter unfortunately had a birth defect that meant at best she would last for 36 hours if she made it to full term and to her birth. So it was an absolutely devastating diagnosis and I really want to share my daughter's name and I think it's really important for any bereaved parent and specifically in termination for medical reasons we can often push our grief to one side. My daughter's name is Narko Rayona. and her name means lioness heart in my husband's Māori language. And for me as well, I really connect into the heartbeat in her scan, the courageous heart. And I really do honour her through everything that I do.

So we went through an induction and then into her stillbirth within our termination for medical reasons. And there are different ways as well that that process happens. But that was our reality. And it was really quite shocking for me the fact that at 21 weeks, when I wasn't prepared for any kind of labour, any of the contractions. You haven't done your hypno birthing or read anything about it at that point. So within a matter of days, we were told that we had to make a choice as to whether we wanted to go through with the termination for medical reasons.

And that's a key difference within it is that you as a parent suddenly have the main seat at the table. There's no one else who can make that choice for you, which is where a lot of the stigma comes in. And then literally days later for us, we were back in the hospital after starting the process for her stillbirth within which we got to meet our girl. But again, dependent on the circumstances and the choices of the parents, it can be very different as to how you navigate it. I'm so sorry you went through that. But you do describe it, of course, I suppose how heartbreaking it is and how difficult these decisions will be. and there's so much nuance, I mean, around them as well. So personal, as Tanya says, you know, you and your partner are the only ones that can make that decision.

People can hold strong opinions perhaps on what the right decision, and I put in right in inverted commas, what the right decision might be. Hence, perhaps some of the secrecy or stigma around it. But it must be really difficult to come to any decision at all. if you do find yourself going through termination for medical reasons, do you have many options, Amina? I, you know, again, Tanya, I am so sorry to hear about the loss of your beautiful daughter. And exactly as Tanya says, it's that choice or decision element, you make a decision within that. And there are ways of navigating it.

And I think often it's kind of put as either or, you know, decide to continue with a pregnancy, which for some families will be the right choice and the right decision to make and for other families for that pregnancy to end at that time. I sometimes think there's also another choice within that and that is the choice not to make an immediate choice to say, I'm overwhelmed. I don't know what to do. I can't make a decision and I need support with that until. either something passes by itself and the decision is made for me or I feel ready to do that as well. And I think sometimes that's not explored the pause and the time and the space for people to come to terms with. As Tanya said, you know, you've got to 20 weeks of pregnancy. When people become pregnant, we don't ever plan for this to happen.

When we become pregnant, we plan for an entire life ahead right from the beginning. And I completely understand what she means that you get past that 12 weeks, is still a bit of a myth within maternity care of, you know, you're in the safe zone now and then to get to halfway through your pregnancy and then having to come to that, sometimes that pause is really important if it's safe to do so. And that is something that should also be available to people. Tanya, did you feel you got that space or time that you needed to make an informed decision? We were definitely offered as much space in time.

For us, there is a little bit of a threshold at 22 weeks with the process slightly changed. So we were instructed around that and we were told you have absolutely all of the choices as to when you want to make your decision. For us, it was, I say, a little bit simpler than other choices because of her prognosis. Because we had at best 36 hours after birth that we would have been able to spend with her. So I know that there are many other decisions where there is a lot more nuance and where there is a lot more expert support that's needed. But it really warms my heart when Amina mentioned around the pause because I think throughout the process, there are many spaces where you can have those pauses. So for me, it was also in our daughter's stillbirth. I had chosen to, we had chosen, to meet her and to spend time with her.

But also even at that point, there can also be those pauses of I'm not sure if I want to meet my. baby, but you don't have to make any rush decisions. Again, there are things that the hospital can bring in that can be really supportive. So I always say that when I'm talking to any grievers and anyone going through that, again, of the power of that pause at different points in the journey and the fact that medical teams are there to tell you when you can. You are a grief coach and an advocate, which is wonderful for people, host the podcast death on the daily. We've mentioned the phrase a few times. you know, termination for medical reasons.

But it did take you a long time to talk about it. Can you explain that the thinking perhaps behind it or the reticence, not to speak? Yeah, I think there's an unconscious reticence that I didn't really clock for the first year. And part of it as well is when I work with grievers, it's also about understanding. I always use the analogy of the caterpillar in its cocoon.

There's also a cocoon time when you're really coming to terms with the shock. you're processing through your grief. And you don't need to share your story far and wide. But as I moved through that, I suddenly realized, as it came up to a year to her first still birthday, which is a very important date for me, I realized I had been leaving out the termination for medical reasons

part of the story. So the few people who I told, it was always stillbirth. And I started to question, what was that about? And I realized because termination for medical reasons isn't talked about in our society. society enough, that it wasn't normalized for me. And there was definitely that unconscious shame there. I think perhaps just as you say it to me, Tanya, perhaps, I mean, still birth is obviously a heartbreaking term to speak about with others at large. But termination for medical reasons,

perhaps we're thinking it's going to make the other person uncomfortable that we're trying to manage their emotions when you've gone through something so profound. Yeah, that is very, very common. I am definitely a people pleaser. I have the forning habit. And that is really, really common. I believe in those of us who are journeying with termination for medical reasons. And in grief in general, where we are constantly managing, will they be able to handle this conversation?

Will it upset them? Who might it trigger, et cetera? And so you make those assumptions. But with those assumptions, you pull yourself back into silence. I put a bet, though, once you did start speaking to people, you realised how much more common it was. Absolutely. Absolutely. As soon as you start having the conversation,

more women, more parents lean in and say me too. And that has brought me such comfort. I would not wish it on anybody, but knowing that you're not alone can show you that actually it does happen to other people, that unfortunately it is other people's reality, but also within that peer support is absolutely critical and has been in my journey.

So in that first year I did have peer support, but that was really the only space that I could talk to other people about it. And, I mean, what do you think termination for medical reasons is spoken about so little compared to other pathways and processes within maternity care? I think it's because termination for medical reasons, sadly, and unfairly is a taboo within taboo.

Pregnancy and baby loss are still something that people really struggle to talk about. And then within that sits termination for medical reason. And, you know, it's where we're not very good about talking about pregnancy and baby loss even now. But then you add into that this very complex situation that Tanya has described of, you know, a pregnancy that has got to, you know, 20 weeks of pregnancy, very much wanted a plan ahead and having to make decisions and choices within that. People, I completely understand what Tanya means about that fear of having to, you know, share your story. because a you fear possible judgment. You think people are not going to understand you.

But also added into that is a way to somebody else's shock, somebody else's trauma and grief as well. We have a moderated Facebook group at Tommies, which offers support to people who have had determination for medical reasons. And that's often the conversation that happens within that, that peer-to-peer support of not being able to talk about it, fearing judgment. and also just the exhaustion.

Grief is exhausting. And, you know, and how many times do you tell your story and then do that very human thing of people going, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry and going, but that's okay. And, you know, you package your grief up and you package your story up nicely. And that can have a real impact on people as well. So I think there's multiple layers to why it's not talked about.

Yes, but the aftercare, of course, so important, as you talk about, and Tommy's one of the, the charities that helps with that. Something else I think that perhaps you found helpful, Tanya, was you decided on a woodland burial for your daughter. Yes, we did a lot of honouring from the point of diagnosis all the way through to a woodland burial.

That was so forward thinking of you to be able to think, how can I mark this and place the significance that it deserves on it? Yeah, I had actually just trained to be an end-of-life dealer just before I became pregnant. So that was a big part of it. And I was immediately wrapped around by my fellow doula peers as well.

So that was a big point of difference, which again is why I think if we can talk about it, it makes all of the difference. And for me, it was really understanding I took a birth and death plan into the hospital, including that we wanted to bathe her, what we wanted to dress her in. I got a little lion swaddle. For her lioness heart. For her lioness heart. Exactly that.

I'd written letters that would be going with her to the morgue and to her genetic testing and everything that was going to unfold. and then all the way through to her woodland burial as well. It was a real process, but also asking what are those choices. So we turned up at the morgue in our car with our two pups to pick her up, which you can do. And we had it all signed off. We had the paperwork. So we took her and she got to meet our dogs and we took her ourselves to her woodland burial.

We did a beautiful honouring the honours both. I've got Hindu heritage within my family. I had sandalwood and other little touches, marigold garland. my husband with his Māori heritage as well. He did a beautiful Māori send-off for her. And it was really, really healing and really wonderful. And I think those little choices along the way have really supported me in finding presence with what happened

and with my grief and being able to come to terms with it, but also to see I can honour my daughter in this forwards path. Yes. Tanja Wilkinson, thank you so much for sharing your story. And again, I'm so sorry of what you and your partner went through. Amina Hatia, thank you very much for joining us as well from Tommy's. And if you are affected by anything you've heard in this discussion, you can find links to organisations that can offer advice and support. That's on the BBC Action Line.

844, if you'd like to get in touch with us, otherwise you can do it too. You can email us through our website. Also at BBC, a woman's hour is the way to find us on social media. Now, I want to turn to something that we were talking about a little bit earlier and you have responded in droves. I went back to the wedding venue and buried the wedding ring in the garden,

thought the gardener might discover it and wonder, but a bet he or she did. I posted my engagement wedding and eternity rings through his letterbox. I wonder if they sit somewhere in his house as a reminder of the distress he caused. I sold them and all other jewelry and updated my bathroom.

It felt rather tarnished, so turning it into cash to be used seemed like a very good option. Yes, we're asking. What do you do with your wedding and or engagement rings after divorce. It has been reported,

Mani turning to something new, the so-called divorce ring. They reset, women reset their engagement diamonds into bold pieces that symbolise a fresh start. With us is gemologist and jeweler Helen Dimock. And we have the author and jewelry historian, Rachel Church.

Lots of people responding on what they did. Rachel, is the divorce ring trend new or a modern version of something people have always been doing? I think it's actually a really much older tradition than we think. There's lots of press now suggesting that it's this new sort of celebrity trend. But the earliest reference I've found is actually from 1877, where it's described as a disgrace of the New York court.

And then it sort of reappears about every 10 years. So in 1911, the Chicago Divorce, Mrs. Marina Park claimed to have invented it and said that she'd resized her wedding ring to wear on her little finger. On her little finger, because some people are putting out on the middle finger, Helen, is what I've read. How often are clients coming to you wanting to redesign their rings after divorce? Well, for me, not since 1877, but for certain many, many years, this is not a new phenomenon. And you're absolutely right. I mean, the wedding ring and the engagement ring is classically worn on the fourth finger on the left-hand side. And this dates actually to a tradition in ancient Egypt, whereby it was thought that there was a vein that ran from here to the heart called the Vayner-a-Moris.

Sadly, that's not true, but it means that that's a very romantic finger to wear the ring on. If you repurpose the ring, you wear it on the middle finger, it takes on a more defiant message. So the symbolism changes considering where the diamond or the ring is worn. But yes, at the point of divorce, we have looked after clients for many years, repurposing them, making them into something different, helping to support to sell them, or even considering maybe inheritance and thinking about how a child might want to one day wear this ring or piece of jewelry. So I see that. Here's a message. My mum gave me her wedding ring and engagement ring. She's being divorced from my dad for 30 years. I've been having it made into a new ring for me to wear. After all, although the marriage didn't last, she did get me out of it. I'm glad she didn't throw them away. So get me out of it, meaning she was the result of that marriage. And so, you know, holds very warm feelings towards that piece of jewellery. This is very important. Yeah. You know, I think the reality, I mean, this phenomenon is very glamourized. You know, this is very glamourise. You know, from California celebrities,

but the reality of women coming to me when they are divorced, you know, they are having a difficult time. There's grease, anger, loss, feeling of self-doubt. But what I try to do is to talk to clients and remember the intentions when that ring was purchased and given was love and it was in hope and it was in optimism. And that was where me, how children are born. So maybe don't throw away, try to take a period of time to reflect

and make an informed and value decision as to what to do with this piece of jewelry. Do you think the ring's engagement wedding, Rachel, have changed their meaning over time. Is it always of romance or perhaps something more personal or individual? I think that people have always had a much wider understanding of how wedding rings should look than maybe we think now. So there's lots of imagery around hearts, hands, arrows, cupids. Yeah, because I saw with some of those historical records that sometimes they get the hands going the other way after they redesign them.

So that like that has ruptured, that particular band has ruptured, which might be some ideas for people. Yeah, there's a lot of sort of grief imagery and some of the early divorce jewellery. So black enamel, using black onics, having something like an eternity ring. But with a different stone to show that it's not this kind of endless circle of love anymore. It's been broken, having cupid's arrow broken in two. So they're quite dark. I thought that was fascinating, though. Okay, some more messages.

After my divorce, I gave my wedding ring to my daughter who had it stitched into her wedding gown. She then had it made into a necklace and another ring, which she loves, especially if she lost her dad nearly 20 years ago. Another. I melted all my rings, wedding engagement, an anniversary and turned them into beautiful new rings for myself and my two daughters. We wear them on our pinky fingers, platinum sapphars and diamonds. Does that sound about right, Helen? Absolutely right. We repurposed wedding rings.

We just changed them from a ring into make them to a pendant. frame and then maybe put something in there, absolutely worn differently. We're only ever a guardian of a piece of jewellery for a fleeting moment in time. So each piece tells a story at different generations and different meanings. Like with Rachel's saying, we can inform people on the story and symbolism of jewellery and we can turn this into a really powerful, self-affirming message for women at this stage. Yeah, some people I see turning it into a colour that they felt into a pure gold of a bright future from the grey platinum ring. They got a goldsmith friend to do that fascinating stuff. Thanks for all the messages that are coming in. Here's one more, Helen Dimmock and Rachel Church.

I sold my wedding ring recently on becoming divorced. I spent the cash at a Michelin Star restaurant on an incredible tasting menu. It was cathartic, indulgent and a reflective, joyful experience. First time I'd been to a restaurant like that on my own. It was wonderful. It was a new start. And New Start ends our program. Thanks so much for all your messages that have come in. Tomorrow, fibroids, the gynecologist, Dr Michelle Griffin, has written a pocket guide to fill the information gap. We'll be speaking to her. And is it correct to assume that a former elite athlete is always healthy?

We'll also discuss that. Thanks for your company today. We'll see you tomorrow. That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time. Silence in court. I'm Lucy Worsley. And in my brand new series,

I'll be hearing about the women involved in some of history's most infamous legal battles. Women accused of murder, bigamy and adultery. Through to the shocking offence of not knowing their place. With a team of all female detectives, I'll explore the lives at the centre of some extraordinary courtroom dramas, asking, has the justice system truly changed?

Lady on Trial with Lucy Worsley. From BBC Radio 4, listen now on BBC Sounds. How did a boycott Jim become a billionaire from posting videos. On Good Bad Billionaire, we're going to find out how the world's most popular YouTuber, Mr Beast, made his fortune. He's buried himself in a coffin for days.

Counted to 100,000 on camera. And even recreated Squid Games, all in an attempt to go viral on the internet. But it all started when he gave a homeless man $10,000. So is he a philanthropist reshaping capitalism? Or is he just the king of the attention economy? Find out on Good Bad Billionaire. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

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