Woman's Hour - 08/08/2025

Episode Date: August 8, 2025

Women's voices and women's lives - topical conversations to inform, challenge and inspire.

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They have hundreds of thousands of cars from top-rated dealers and advanced search tools, deal ratings and price history. So you know a great deal when you see one. That's c-ar-g-g-us.ca.ca.cagurus.ca.ca.caugrus.ca.ca.ca. BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani, and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the program and the final day of Listener Week. What do you say to your children after a cancer diagnosis?

Just one of the questions from you that we will be discussing today. Two young women will be questioning and talking about the pros and cons of hybrid working, should they be in the office every day or is working from home a few days a week more beneficial. Yara and Davina will tell us about their unique job share as an art collective. Pickleball. Have you heard of it? A bat and ball game that one listener found life-changing.

And this morning we have a very honest and intimate email from a woman saying, having entered the menopause, I find myself horny quite often. I'm 49 and I love my husband dearly, but frankly he has never been a fulfilling. lover. Well, they haven't had sex for eight years and she's now considering an affair. I'll be joined by a sex therapist to discuss her dilemma. But this morning, I'd also like to hear your thoughts. Have you been in or are you in a sexless marriage? Have you too contemplated infidelity?

Or maybe you've had an affair. How did it impact your relationship? Was it just what you needed? What did you need to consider? Did you confide in anyone? How have you dealt with your sexless marriage? Remember, you can get in touch with us your experiences about that or anything you hear on the program and you can remain anonymous. The text number is 84844. You can email the program by going to our website and also drop us a WhatsApp or even a WhatsApp voice note

on 0700-100-444. And if you'd like to follow us on social media, it is at BBC Woman's Hour. That text number, though, once again, 84844. On to our first story, though. by listener Brenda Drum about what to say to children if you've received a diagnosis of cancer. This is a really difficult subject, which some might find upsetting. Brenda wrote to us and said,

I'd love to hear you talking about a mother's playbook or instruction manual for getting through cancer, especially an incurable cancer where you feel you're almost dying out loud in front of your children through most of their childhood. I feel I've been doing it since my kids were two and nine. They're now 29 and 21. Well, the Woman's Hour community is wonderful. And after we ask people to get in touch with their experiences, Elsa Macdonough emailed. Elsa has been living with bowel cancer for almost 10 years

and found out it was incurable four years ago. She received her initial diagnosis when her children were one and three. Both Brenda and Elsa joins me now. Good morning to both of you. Brenda, I'm going to come to you first. You've been living with multiple myeloma, which is an incurable cancer of bone marrow. So if you can start by taking us back to the time

when you received your diagnosis, tell me what was going through your mind when you thought of your children. Take us back to that time. And thank you for messaging us, actually. Thanks, Anita, and thank you for having this discussion. My kids at the time were two and a half and nine, so the thoughts that went through my head were very, very different.

Regarding both of them, I felt that I had a very intuitive, very clever nine-year-old who at that age already didn't do platitudes and was very, very in tune with me. And then the two-and-a-half-year-old, or two-and-a-half-year-old, for me it was just about explaining to him why I would have to be away for so much of that year. I was 10 weeks in total in hospital in 2007. And I suppose for me, the issue was by the time that somebody came to me to sort of have a word with me about how I might approach this, you know, with a professional background, I'd already had to have the conversation with our nine-year-old daughter. And, you know, it went okay. I suppose looking back now, what I realize is that you can never, you can't underestimate or you can never really guess what questions or what concerns a kid is going to have a couple of hours after we told her.

she was driving home with her dad in the car. And she said to him, are we going to be able, are we going to lose our house now because mom isn't able to work and will we be able to afford the mortgage? Now, I would never have put that on a list of possible questions that she would have. But I suppose for her, it was the reassurance that her world, her immediate world, wasn't going to change fundamentally, her safety net, her place of refuge.

So that was something that you just had to roll with. And my husband reassured her. And, but again, that wasn't a question that I expected. And that's the thing with being a mom with cancer. You just never know what questions are going to come at you. What advice was available? You said it came a few hours later. What was given to them?

There was a social worker who was available. But actually, it came a couple of days later that, because I had asked if somebody could help me just to put into words or what I should or shouldn't say to a nine-year-old. And in the end, I didn't manage to, as I said, to have that conversation with the experts. So I just had to wing it and go with it. And we decided that we would tell her what we felt was appropriate for a nine-year-old to hear. And looking back now, I know that she knew more than we told her.

And I knew, I mean, she was seeing bouquets of flowers coming to the house. She was seeing all these relatives landing who she probably only ever saw at weddings and funerals. So she was suspicious that this was something a lot more serious before I actually got around to telling her. And actually, we didn't really tell her how serious it was until after I found out that my transplant had worked. And at that point, she said, I knew it was something much darker than what you had told me at the time.

And I suppose when she was 14 then, she came back to me. She had a little bit of a wobble where she got upset. and I said to her, what is it, is something happening? And she said, no, it's you. I'm worried that something will happen to you when I'm not around. I suppose it's that caretaker mode. So in that conversation, as a 14-year-old, she made me promise her that if I was told that there was no more treatment steps,

that it was basically palliative care or hospice, that I would tell her because she said there are things that a daughter needs to do for her mother if she knows that she's going to die. And I think that was probably the most difficult conversation, that I've ever had all through the treatment and through the last 18 years. But I suppose it really made me realise that there is no perfect playbook. There is no playbook for being a mother who's going through cancer and that in many ways that you will have to go through these questions and answers

depending on the age of your children. As they grow and as the cancer remains something that hangs over us as a shadow, there will be different and possibly more difficult conversations as they get older and come to the realisation of, I suppose, mortality. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. And what can help is support, particularly talking to somebody who's gone through a similar experience,

albeit different. I have to say you did mention that you did have a very precocious nine-year-old. I mean, the question that she was asking and the way she thinks, I mean, what a remarkable young daughter or not so young anymore that you have. I'm going to bring in Ailsa because Ailsa did get in touch after we put out your email initially to say is anybody else want to talk to you about it

and I'm going to get you to talk to each other because I think it's really important but first Elsa if you could welcome to the program by the way share a bit of your experience what you thought about what Brenda just said and what was going through your mind about how to tell your children

when you got your diagnosis yes obviously my children were a lot younger and our initial instinct was to protect them. So we actually tried naively to hide how serious maybe things were. There were one in three, so it was an easy, well, we thought it was an easy thing to be hiding. So we would say, you know, mummy's poorly and she needs some medicine and she's going to have a visit to the hospital and she's having some surgery, so she'll be away for a bit.

But it was actually, when our arms were twisted a bit, because it was out in the school community, and when they were older, much older. They're kind of years four and two or three at school that we actually used the word cancer. And I thought they took it really well because we told them what it actually was and they went off and played. I thought, oh, that was easier than I thought. But like Brenda said, the questions came later as they processed. So days later or weeks later. And one of the things that eventually came out from my eldest, a boy, he said, but mom, why? why did you lie to us all that time? Why did you lie and say, why didn't you tell us it was cancer?

And it was a really difficult question to answer. And the reason was because adults are scared of the word cancer. And we didn't want an adult to say something to them, if they said to somebody, oh, my mom has cancer. And for the adults to look frightened, we thought, you know, if we just tried to hide that scary word for them. But actually, by hiding the words cancer and chemotherapy and tumour. Looking back, we should have used all the proper language from the beginning because it, well, at the time we didn't know how long we would be living with cancer, but to live as a family for almost 10 years with it as another family member almost unwanted in the house, it's important to be able to talk about it with the proper language and be honest with them. Is there any advice given

to you about that? What were you give? What were you told? I was very lucky that I had a wonderful GP who asked me right at the beginning, would you like a referral to the local hospice? And it was really frightening. I thought hospice was only for people at end-of-life care. I didn't realize it was for anybody with a life-limiting illness. Even if your treatment was going to be curative, you don't have to be terminal or palliative. And I was referred to my local hospice. Pendleside Hospice. It's absolutely amazing place. I've had counseling. My children received counseling. My husband has had counseling. My mom has had counseling. It's given us all a language to be able to talk about how we feel about it. It's made an open subject. I also go for alternative therapies and reflexology.

They've had some art therapy there as children as well. And that help and being able to talk to the counselors and to the family support workers in the hospice about how to speak to them. For example, now they're older. One of the counselors said to me, they've mentioned that they hear you and your husband whispering about it sometimes in the house, and they're worried what you're talking about, why you're whispering, why is it not, you know, louder? And so when I talked to them at home and said, well, one of the reasons that we whisper sometimes

is we don't necessarily have all the information. We know that there's been a scan, but we don't know what the results are, or we haven't spoken to the oncologist about what this means or, you know, my chemotherapy stopped working. We need to swap to another one. We don't know what it will be. And I said, do you want us to tell you all these bumps in the road along the way?

or just when we have full information, do you want to know? And they both actually said, actually, can you keep whispering and just tell us when you know the big stuff? Because we don't want to know all the ups and downs and all the waiting. We don't want to do that. And it didn't occur to me that because they were one and three when they started, they had no agency and choice. But now that they are older, you know, they're 13 and 10, they have, I need to remember that they have a choice in what information they receive, how they receive it, if they want to carry on seeing a counsellor if they feel they don't need it and like brenda was saying it really resonated with me it it changes as they get older

their needs change and the support that they can access also changes this you know young carers and as they as they are in maybe more of a caring role for me as as as my health declines will be something that we need to look at and consider as well i'm going to get you to talk to each other directly um i mean what's what was some of the hardest questions that you've had to feel both of you, Brenda. And feel free to talk to one another. I think it's important you do in fact. Yeah

Elsa, it's lovely to, we had a little chat before we came on, but Alsa it's lovely to hear just so much of my experience mirrored in your experience. I suppose for me, one of the hard things with kids and especially my two year old

at the time was the hair loss because he used to love sitting and brushing my hair. And when I eventually lost all my hair. He came over to me that evening and said, can I brush your hair? I had no hair. So he came over and brushed my bald head. So I think kids can teach us a lot. I'm sure you've found that as well, Ilsa. Kids can teach you a lot about how you should just be yourself and not try to be someone different. But I suppose for me, as a mom as well, it was giving myself that permission. Not to stop being mammy, but giving myself permission to have that time where

I was the patient first and that was a very hard transition but your kids will show I suppose my kids certainly showed me the way and they now that they're much older they they give me that permission to you know to be sick or if I have an off day I don't know if you find that as well Elsa yeah I think sometimes they have better advice than I give myself because I'll say why don't you just sit down why don't you just have a sit down for 10 minutes if you're that tired you don't have to paint that you don't have to paint the whole wall to day. Take a break. Just take a break. It doesn't matter. I think the other thing is you don't know when the questions are going to come. I've practiced some of the more difficult questions because

you're just making tea and chopping a carrot and all of a sudden this really dark question will appear and you think, oh, I wasn't ready for this question. How am I supposed to field it? And I've had to go back and fix questions and say, do you know what I said this morning? I think what really of what I should have said, is something different and change it because you just don't know when they're going to ask you what. It's like preparing for an interview. You have the, you have this in your head, but then I found it was empty in the dishwasher together or driving somewhere in the car where I just would pull into the driveway and a question would land

and I'd go, well, okay. It was where we had that conversation about my daughter asking me to tell her if I got the worst news. And then for me, when my son got older, I had to go through it all again with him. And so it's kind of a cyclical thing where sometimes things will come up again and you go, what did I say now? So I think I always find out the truth,

telling the truth and giving them the language, telling the truth, you know, you don't have to give the whole truth at one time. You can give it in like pockets. But I do feel looking back that my kids knew, certainly our older daughter knew what was going on and there probably was a little bit of you should have told me and trusting them that they're capable of more than you think they are.

I think involving them in the practicalities of the treatment helped as well so they're not afraid for the word chemo or infusion or even hospital because that's the worst possible thing that you put into them a fear of kind of medicine or hospital or whatever. Certainly that was one of the things that I find looking back. Can I ask both of you, what have you said, What did you say to your children about the future? So why I am terrified that my children are going to say to me, are you going to die?

And I'm very lucky that they haven't asked that specifically yet. But what I always say is right now I'm well and no one's talking about that right now. My practice answer is no one's talking about dying right now. That's not what the doctors are talking about. That's not what we are talking about. now the treatment is keeping cancer where it needs to be and we just have to live in that in that place but they do worry about the future and i've had to plan you know if something happens to me the dad will look after them and then we've had what if something happens to dad what if something

and i've actually had to go through well then you'd go to granny and then you go to auntie holly and they do like brenda was mentioning before they worry about their immediate safety and what would happen if something happened to you and i've had that conversation a couple of times and with them about who would look after them if me and or if me and the dad weren't around. I mean, Brenda, sorry. That was probably one of the most terrifying aspect

of living with an incurable cancer is that predictive grief and trying to plan how you deal with your own feelings but making sure that I suppose that the stage was set for them if the worst happened and it was the thing that kept me awake at night

all through. I'm 18 years in remission now. We don't talk about me dying because I'm in remission I've had a good response it will probably come back at some stage but my kids are both adults now so it'll be a different it won't be any easier

but it will be a different conversation and I think the main thing what we did was that I've kept dreaming and I've said to them like we plan we dream together as a family we plan together and we keep reaching for the things that we want to do despite the shadow that lives over us

well I'd like to thank both of you for speaking to me this morning. A really interesting conversation which no doubt will have supported and helped people listening as well. So Elsa and Brenda, thank you so much. 84844 is the number to text.

It's Woman's Hour, it's listener week, and all the items we're discussing today have come from you. Like this one. Well, actually earlier in the week, you may have heard Nula exploring a listener's question about whether testosterone could boost her libido that had dwindled as a result of the menopause. Well, although many women experience a decrease in libido when they're approaching menopause,

some women may actually experience an increase in sex drive. And we were reminded of this when Louise, not her real name, got in touch with a marital dilemma. This is what she said. Having entered the menopause, I find myself horny quite often. I'm 49 and I love my husband dearly, but frankly he's never been a fulfilling lover. And even though I've raised this with him and invited him to learn some new moves, he's never shown any inclination to do so. We haven't had sex now for about eight years.

I feel scared and deeply sad that my sexual days are behind me. I have considered cheating on my husband. The problem is that to feel safe, I would need to know the man well and this might stray beyond a purely physical relationship. I'd love to know what sex therapists say about this. Well, sex therapist Kate Campbell is here to answer all those questions and I have to say, Kate, lots of messages coming in as well. Good. Excellent.

First of all, and we'll try and get to as many of those as well, many listening might be surprised to hear about a boost to libido around menopause. Is that common? Yeah, it's not that common, but it does happen. Because hormones are fluctuating, like mad, you will get boosts as well as drops, so it can happen, and people on HRT sometimes get a boost as well. So, yeah, be ready. So now on to Louise.

I'm going to read out a bit more that I missed out from the email saying because it was quite a desperate email because she goes on to say it I feel like carrying this secret desperation that is completely unacceptable to discuss with others and honestly sometimes I think it's killing me

where would you start counselling someone like Louise? Well I think with the relationship because there seems to be a lack of communication there I mean asking someone to learn some new moves probably is going to scare them so they might need some therapy that might help. They might need to talk about it.

About a third of men have responsive desire. So they don't actually feel desire spontaneously and not until they're aroused. So you have to choose then to be sexual, which is very different to just sort of feeling, I'm horny all the time, which is what maybe she's experiencing at the moment, which is very different.

So they need to have a conversation about what's going on for her. He needs to understand things are changing and that maybe this could even threaten the relationship although they do seem very close in other respects, and it's a shame that this is one area that just isn't working. Well, is it threatening the relationship because she's obviously considering what else she can do to satisfy her needs,

including having an affair? She's right about if it becomes emotional, it may well do that. I mean, some people, this is... How common is this question? Yeah, well, I was just going to say, it's more common than you'd think. Yeah. Because I see quite a lot of people in this situation.

and quite often what they choose to do in the end is to find an app or a website where they can meet other people who are in committed relationships so that they are clear about the relationship they're having and they just do that quietly. And can that bring them closer to their own relationship? Well, how does that plan?

Most often it seems to save the relationship, yeah. So is it easier to have a flat? now because of technology? Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, it depends. It depends whether you're looking for it. I think people are very vulnerable when they're in a relationship where they don't feel cared about or where, you know, they've always been vulnerable to a fling. It's happened.

But you can go out and look for one there, which is the difference. But I think when you reach the menopause, there's a bit of an identity issue going on. People think about themselves as women and they think about. the rest of their lives and what they're going to do with it and to say, oh, you're not going to have sex ever again or you're not, you can't strut your stuff, feel sexual, you know, regain yourself when you've been feeling hot and sweaty and horrible. You want to be you and you want to go out there and be sexual.

Absolutely, this is, it's really difficult if she feels right. I don't have any choice about this. Well, in her email, she also goes on to say, because she is considering a secret fling and she, you know, What she does go on to say is how can she protect her cherished partner from hurt? It's really, this is really hard. I think what she's got to think about is what she wants to get out of this and how much of a risk she's prepared to take, because there is a risk.

If he finds out, he could be desperately upset. But if she makes sure he doesn't find out, I guess there's no risk to anybody. But, you know, it's how she feels about that ethically. It's how she feels about the chances. But I think, really, before she does anything, she should be having that conversation again. Yeah. I'm going to read a couple of these messages. Oh, great.

Let's read this one out first. I've been married for 30 years happily, but with a very unsatisfactory sex life. My husband and I had not had sex for about three years when I started an affair with my childhood friend six months ago. The sex was amazing, better than anything I'd had before. and has helped me recognise my need for intimacy and touch. I feel very angry that my husband is not able to fulfil me in this way

and I feel I've wasted many years with him. However, I do still love him and don't want to divorce. My ideal would be to find a way to have both men in my life. Wow. Well, that could happen. If that was your client, what would you say? Well, usually it's not helpful to open up the relationship when you've got another relationship on the go. I mean, opening it up and becoming polyamorous,

or is generally more helpful if you think about it for a long time before you dive in. So there is a risk here because she's attached to this other person as well. So, I mean, really, it depends what her husband thinks, doesn't it, whether he can accommodate that?

But it could work. I wonder what they're thinking. I wonder if they're questioning whether they can just carry on having two relationships at once without... Well, some people do it for decades. Yeah. Another one here.

I've been living in a sexless marriage for about 10 years. I've been with my partner for 42 years. For the most part, we had a brilliant, imaginative, passionate, fairly regular sex life. I remember it fondly. I'm 67. My sex drive is virtually nil. My partner's desire for me has evaporated into the midst of time. And I'm not that bothered, to be honest. I have a very full life, a busy weekly routine. And when I collapse into bed, I'm happy to read a good book and drift off. My husband and I are great soulmates and good buddies. Wow. That's nice. That works for them. That works for them. But they've mentioned two words there that are trigger points for you, aren't they? Soulmates. I'm not wild about soulmates.

I mean, I think a lot of therapists get very anxious about soulmates because it suggests that you're the same, that everything's fixed, there's no chance of change. And soulmates are actually quite difficult to work with because they don't want to change and they don't necessarily take responsibility for their part. Another one, because there's quite a few. I'm 53-year-old woman living in a sexless marriage. I was always more sexual than my husband. We swat having sex almost three years ago. We now sleep in separate rooms. I love my husband, but the absence of sex and his snoring may be want to sleep alone. Best decision. Lately, I've been considering an affair, but it's not a reality due to my faith and I often fantasise. We'd love to hear what I can do as my situation

feels a bit desperate. I feel sexually alive, but my environment is sexually dead. I would suggest sex therapy because it's surprising what it can do. And separate rooms can be very sexy invite your partner in you know for a special night it could happen but sex therapy could be really helpful um another one my marriage of 20 years broke up because i found out my wife had an affair if you're unhappy with your current relationship leave the break of trust is unbearable yeah that's a that's a really good point but talk before you leave i i i you know it's really difficult if the person doesn't know what you want from them what people do is complain they don't ask for what they want. And a conversation where you sit down and say, I need this

is much more helpful so you can negotiate than you don't do this, you don't do that and just criticising. We've got so many coming in. I feel we could do a whole one hour sex clinic. We should think about that for the future. But I am going to just end this, this our chat and move on to the next item with this one. Simple answer to these problems, vibrators. Yeah. And that comes from Kate Campbell. She just said yes, sex therapist. Kate, thank you so much. And Louise, we hope that has helped somewhat and best of luck for the future. Keep your thoughts coming in on everything you're listening to this morning. The text number is 84844.

Kate, thank you. Now, entering the world of work can be nerve-wracking, especially when you're still figuring out how to make your mark. And with hybrid and remote working becoming more common post-pandemic, how do you do that when you're not always in the room? Well, woman's hour listener, Kudzai, works at a university and got in touch about this. Although she has the option to work from home, she chooses to go in every day, and she's been wondering what impact those choices have,

especially for younger women just starting out in their careers. Well, Kudzai joins me along with Elle, who's also a listener, and embraces the benefits of working from home, and Rebecca Floreson from the Work Foundation at Lancaster University, a think tank focused on improving working lives in the UK. A very good morning to all of you. Kudzai, let me start with you. This is a discussion you started with your friends over dinner.

what was said and why did you want to speak to us about it? It was more that we noticed that how your week's gone can really be impacted by how much you're in or not and whether you enjoy being in or not. So we were discussing, like, I've got a friend who works from home a lot and sometimes she doesn't see people. So it's like, well, we can't cancel dinner on Friday because you have my one chance to catch up with people

and that would be really nice. And then another who goes in a bit more often, but their team isn't in. So they have a really different experience of going into work because you're going into slightly empty office. And I just, I really like going in. I like little chitch hats and we get free lunch at work. So that's the best incentive. I was going to say, is that your incentive? I mean, you have the option to work from home to do hybrid working.

Yeah. But you choose to go in every day? Yeah. Why? Apart from the free lunch, which you know is a great motivation. Yeah. I only live about 10 minutes a bike ride from work. So I'm not far.

I used to have like an hour and a half commute, but that's gone now. So it's much easier to go in. And genuinely free lunch, not having to think about what I'm eating and having a free coffee just really, it motivates me to get up the hill. but also most of my team come in. So even whenever I come in, apart from Fridays, which are quite quiet, I will always bump into someone and I can always have a good chat with someone, which isn't work, but it's still fun.

I'm going to bring in Elle, because Elle, you wrote in to tell us that you actually quite like hybrid working most of the time. You work from home. Yeah, I do. So I tend to go in once or twice a week. And, I mean, initially that was just a pragmatic decision. I was like changing career direction a bit. Couldn't find a job in the city that I lived in.

So my commute's now about two hours long, which is pretty punishing. But I've actually found it's just given me way more time to kind of build up my social circle outside of work. So I'm able to go to different clubs, basically every night of the week. I'm on two different book clubs. I've got a running club going. And prior to that, I used to go in five days a week. And I just didn't have time. It made me feel like I was rushing a bit more because by the time you get home from work

and then you've got to cook dinner and you're tired and then you don't really want to go out. So although it started as a pragmatic decision, I think now on balance, if I was to look for a job again in the future, I would avoid jobs where I would be expected to go in five days a week because I just really love the work-life balance that a hybrid kind of set up gives me. I'm going to get you to talk to each other because you both do very different things and you've made different decisions. But, you know, because I'm quite intrigued.

Because I know for you, Kudai, one of the reasons you know going in is quite good is because you think about promotions at work and getting to know your colleagues, right? Yeah, I find it, I found from our dinners that it really depends on how your work environment is set up. So, like, for me, being seen at work is, well, it feels important because the senior team members are always in.

So it feels like if you're not in, you just never see them. But I don't know what you have, L with like, is most of the team hybrid? And therefore it's normal to not go in as much. Yeah, that is the case, which I feel quite lucky about because because the place I work for, like they really prioritise flexibility, which means I don't feel like I'm being disadvantaged. Although that being said, I was quite nervous about that going in. So, like, when I first joined, I was going in almost every day. day of the week just whilst I like sussed out the vibe and made sure that I wasn't going

to be at a disadvantage. And it is still something I'm kind of mindful about because there is always that concern like when you're at home or people know what you're doing. But I found little work around and you know ways to be more present even though you're online that I think kind of mitigates that. But I do think the like culture of where you work definitely makes a big difference on that as well. I'm going to bring Rebecca in from the work foundation. So Rebecca is going to the office. You've heard both L and Kedzai explaining their situations and their thought process about their decisions. Is it better to go into the office working from home for those just starting out in their careers? So I think the really interesting thing from both these

perspectives that we're hearing is that it's so dependent on people's personal preferences, but also their needs. So we know from the research that we've done that for some people, hybrid working is just a nice to have. But also for a little bit of of other people, it's absolutely essential to be able to get into work and to remain in work. So for example, for a lot of women who have caring responsibilities or child care responsibilities and for disabled people and people with health conditions. So it really depends on both the organization, how it's set up, what is the norm, and then about personal preferences. But I think what's really interesting about what Elle was saying as well, even if there is a

an organisational norm for being in the office more often. There are ways in which you can make yourself visible and ensuring that your performance is being recognised by seniors. A recent report from the Office for National Statistics found that only 19% of employees aged 16 to 29 are hybrid workers compared to 36% of 30 to 49-year-olds. Why is that? So I think that has a lot to do with the types of jobs

that young people are in. young workers are more likely to be in sort of routine and manual occupations before they go on to something else. Those are often jobs that need to be done in person. But at the same time as well, some young people might want to be at the office more often, sometimes for the exposure and the social life, but also a lot of them live in shared accommodation. So also the home might simply not be set up for them to work from home.

Have working lives improved since Hybrid was injured? I would say for a lot of people who really wanted more flexibility at work, this has massively improved their working lives. We've heard from a lot of disabled people that working from home provides them with so much more energy to actually do their job by cutting out the commute, but also by working from spaces that are set up for them. So in that sense, I think working life has changed and has so much more flexibility in it that can be incredibly helpful for people. Yeah. It's one of those subjects that everyone has an opinion on because you think back to your own experience, right? And I kind of think back to when I first started working in TV as a young

researcher, just the importance of coming into the office to learn the job and learn the skill and kind of learn from people within the office who are going to teach you how to do the job. I mean, it's a very specific type of industry that you kind of need to be in for quite a lot. But Elle, what do you see as the negatives of working remotely? I think the big one that can be a negative is obviously you don't have that social interaction with your colleagues in the same way. So sometimes I do feel like potentially that's an experience I'm missing out on in my like 20s to have that really rich, vibrant working social life. So I think if you are going to go like hybrid or completely remote, you have to be really confident or really. confident or really like vigilant about establishing a healthy social network outside of work.

Yeah, social network is really important. But also what about sort of learning from people who are sort of higher up the ladder than you within the workspace? Yeah, well, see, I've just become quite shameless with like messaging people and like asking for 15 minutes in someone's calendar, that kind of thing. And just, you know, hoping for the best and hoping they're going to have time. I guess that would be the same as if you were in the office you'd just have to be going up to people's desks and that kind of thing but I'm just doing it over like message instead so yeah I just have to be shameless with it

I fully approve of being shameless at work definitely ask all the questions could sigh tell us more about this conversation that happened over dinner yeah it was just it was it was us comparing our notes because dinner's always on a Friday night and it's just comparing how the week's gone and how you're finding your workload and I think we realized that the three

different companies we work out are doing things completely differently and we wouldn't know unless we spoke to each other unless we caught up regularly so would you say where you are is it is actively you know the free lunch the coffee is all the lovely stuff and the cake no doubt is actively encouraged doing that to get you to come in Yeah, I think it was a post-pandemic move to try and get people back in the office and works much more focused on collaboration and its research. So it helps a bit more to be in sometimes. But there are people who work hybrid and you know that you're only going to see them on a Monday

and that doesn't really affect anything, at least from my perspective, I think for me it was just wondering is, am I missing out on something? Should I be at home a bit more? But I also think it suits my personality a bit more because I, and I moved to a new city. So I lived somewhere else. I hated the commute. So I moved to the city and it's horribly expensive. So I might as well make the most out of it.

I think you're right. I think it probably does come down to personality type. But, Elle, is she missing out on anything by not working from home? Staying in your pyjamas longer in the morning? That's definitely a big question. Oh, no. Each to their own, as they say. It's been a really fascinating conversation.

Thank you both for coming on and speaking so honestly, Kudsi, Elle and Rebecca. Thank you. 8444. How do you know I'm not in my pajamas today? I may well be, and I've come into work. I have actually worn some pajamas to work once upon a time. but I styled them out. Keep your thoughts coming in on everything.

Lots of messages about sexless marriages. My marriage of nearly 20 years broke up because I found out my wife was having an affair. Another one here. I've lived in a sexless marriage for over 25 years. My husband, who I love dearly, has always had a much lower sex drive than me. It really bothers me when we were younger

and I did contemplate having an affair. However, now that we're in our 70s, sex isn't so important. We have cuddles, but I would still like more physical contact. is it always up to me to initiate? I will persevere. Now, my next guests contacted us to highlight the unique job that they do,

which is working together in what they described as a job share forming an art collective, making socially engaged public art. Yara El Shabini and Davina Drummond formerly created Yara and Davina nine years ago, but they've been friends for 20. Yara and Davina, welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you for having us.

It's absolutely our pleasure. for getting in touch. So tell us about your art collective. Explain what you do. Well, first of all, I want to start off by singing. I love that mention about the pyjamas at the end. Just a second. Yeah, yeah, very good. You are and I. Thank you. We find ourselves wearing pajamas and we just put lipstick on and it's fine. So what do we do? Well, we're an artist duo and we make public art and we're really passionate about making public art, which is made with and for the public. So instead of putting something in the public realm that's made by somebody else that doesn't really relate or resonate with the wider

public we must make it with the people and we do that through using a very accessible and playful approach so we make work which is deeply funny at times which is very accessible so people can understand it straight away that's super important for us like what yeah yeah often the formats we use are really quite expansive so for example womanhole covers which are subverted manhole covers we use really different ways of making art to push boundaries of what art is and where it can be located and who it's for in a really fun. It is fun. I've had a look at your website. I've had a look at some of your work and I'm very intrigued by the woman whole colours. Tell us more about those.

So ODAC, the old diorama art centre, invited us to create a piece of public art that was engaged with the community and we were really interested in working with women in the largest estate in council estate in London and we were really interested in the idea of these gendered manhole covers and actually what does this gender term mean and how could we playfully subvert that and create a series of womenhole covers. So we spent nearly a year working with women in the local estate

thinking about playfully subverses messages and texts that they wanted to create in response to this idea of a womanhole and created a series of six bronze cast womanhole covers that are embedded in the pavements throughout Camden. And what do they say? So our favourite says resistance is never futile and the word resistance make the word, make the manhole cover slip resistance.

So it's the word resistance repeated. It's really playful. One says stay grounded. One really simply says don't get walked over. that was my favourite I have to say that leapt out of me how did you come together

to Vina how did you meet well we met 20 years ago 20 years ago this summer and actually it was Yarra's MA show at the Slade and I went to visit her show and I saw her work

and I absolutely found love of it I went to see so many shows that year and it was the one artist show that I was just like deeply moved by and in those days we used to have these little comment books that we'd leave next to our MA or our degree shows you know and I wrote a long message in it saying I love your work let's meet up

and then we met up and you know really beautiful and probably the most important friendship of my life started then and at first we just started you know getting to know each of us work I was commissioning at the time and I commissioned her work a bit at the beginning but at the whole time I was deeply jealous of her work when I was commissioning her because I wanted to be making art not commissioning it and hence you know gave up commissioning to really concentrate on my work and you come together and what I found in intriguing is that you say that you job share. And I want you to explain that to me. So like, why aren't you just an art duo? Why do you say we job share?

Yeah, that's really important to us. I mean, we will both talk about it. But, you know, we, of course, we are an artist duo, but we specifically job share because we're passionate about that word share. So for us, job share isn't about dividing a role. It's about sharing a role. You know, essentially, you know, we're sharing our art. We're bringing our resources together. we're bringing our networks together. We're bringing our ideas together, most importantly. And, you know, through coming together, we come up with ideas much quicker,

but most importantly, much more powerful ideas than we do separately. So it's about that sharing. But, you know, we share our lives. We support each other in so many ways beyond making art. And that supporting that happens outside of the art actually makes art stronger because it gives us those lived experiences together.

Yeah, Yara. How does it work practically? Because you don't live in the same cities, do you? No. So I live in Devon, in Exeter, and Davina's in London, and actually for seven years of our practice, I lived in the US. But what really is wonderful, again, about this idea of job sharing is we make it work because we consolidate and condense our hours to working hours because we're parents. So we want to do drop off and pick up and we want to be really present parents. So we sort of just work from 10 to 2 every day, online together every day.

So even when I was seven hours, eight hours behind, we made it work. So we're always present. So quite practically, we are almost, feels like we're in the same office, but then one of us will be taking a call. One of us will be emailing someone. We'll be sharing everything and doing it together. It is about doing it together, but also making space to be mums. And that's one of the reasons why we really started this job share, because within one month of each other, we both became mums. And we both realized that we really wanted to be fully present artists.

present moms. We didn't want to have to give one up. We had, we both loved each other's works. It was so kind of Davina to say that. I was passionate about her practice and her role and we said, well, why don't we do it together? And that way you can share the hours, share all of our skills and ideas, the highs and lows, the moments that are brilliant and also the moments that can be quite challenging and do that and be able to still be moms and be artists. I'm really enjoying this conversation and there's something really uplifting and empowering hearing how you are championing each other and how you discovered each other

and how much you fell in love with each other's work. What happens when you disagree? Oh, good question, Lisa. Well, you know, we're both quite passionate. Is that why you live in different towns now? Can't be in the same place. We have discussed that many times. We've almost lived together.

We always lived in Sheffield. We always moved together to talk to this. There's been these moments where we've almost done that. And actually in the end, we've decided we have to give each other a bit of space because we're such a big part of each other's lives. We need that space. and it works really well. And, you know, essentially...

I don't think we really do disagree. I just think when do we argue. We do... I think that's what the strength is. And we said earlier about coming up with better ideas and more stronger, more powerful ideas. And the reason we do that is because we do sometimes argue. And then through that argument or that discussion,

we'll work out together actually what's the strongest bit of the idea we're addressing. So it's always a useful... quality in our relationship rather than a disadvantage of that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, you know, it can be perfectly fine and normal to be in a working relationship

where you are able to deal with disagreements. I fully believe that two women can do that. We need to talk about the art actually itself because it's public art. And I want to sort of explore this idea of where you get your PR and your promotion and your platform from. Like, how do people, how do you get your work out there?

that's a really really good question so we're really lucky in the sense that we have a strong support network of people in the contemporary art world in the UK that are really really aware of great public art and socially engaged practice so we are inundated with opportunities that come towards which is really really wonderful because for us it really is about how we make art in a truly engaged and deeply meaningful way which is not always a case for public So we have that support. But the reality is our work doesn't sit within the sort of, let's say, traditional commercial market of the art world. And we know that in many ways that puts us as a disadvantage in terms of kind of the higher level of sort of financial success or the conversations around what we're doing. But it comes to, allows us to talk about one of the most important things with notions around value. And I'll let Davina talk about that, that idea of value and what value. means for us. So all of our work is commissioned. We don't sell our work. It's always commissioned. So because we don't sell it, we don't have a kind of commercial PR machine behind our work the way

that bigger commercial artists would have because there's no motivation, commercial motivation to do that. But what we do have and what we believe passionately is more important is that we make work that we believe has long lasting values of such things as like social values. The work has emotional values, as political values, as cultural and educational values. And for us, that's more important than commercial value. So of course, we need to make sure we're bringing enough money to pay the bills. And we do do that. And we've managed to do that for quite a while now. We're really proud of that. But what's most important is that we create art that has a long lasting impact on people. Well, you sound like you're doing something very right. And it's been

a pleasure speaking to both of you. Thank you so much for getting in touch to Yara El Shabini and Davina, aka Yara and Davina. Google them. They've got a website and you can see all there out there. Another one of your messages, because lots of you are coming through before we move on to the last listener week item of the week. And this is about working from home. I am a lot more productive when working from home.

You don't get the office gossip coming over to you or people stopping you for a quick chat. I now only visit the office once a week with my team where we all have a face-to-face meeting required and no, I don't feel isolated from Michelle in Nottingham. There you go. Now, how much do you know about pickleball? Well, our listener Caroline Benson got in touch to say that taking the sport up in her 40s has been life-changing, helping her to navigate grief and build her resilience and self-belief.

She's here this morning to tell us more, and it just so happens. It's also the pickleball English open happening in Telford this weekend. So Karen Mitchell from Pickleball, England, is also with us to to help discuss the sports growing popularity. Karen and Caroline, welcome to Woman's Hour. To my shame, Caroline, I do not know what, I didn't know pickleball. I didn't know it. So for the few people who are living in ignorance like me, can you explain what the game is?

So, hi, Anita. Thank you so much for having me on. I think the way I kind of describe pickleball to somebody who has never played it before, never seen it before, Karen can probably explain the technicalities a little bit better than me. But I would say it's akin to playing on a giant ping pong table to actually being stood on the table. It's usually played in doubles, although you can play it in singles.

The core is about the size of a badminton court, I believe. And you kind of use hard kind of plastic paddles and plastic balls. So I think the balls are a little bit bigger than a tennis ball. And yeah, it's just, it's really fun. It's kind of quick, fast and furious is how I explain it. usually play it in my club we play it to first to 11 points and then you kind of move on to the next game and you said that it has been life-changing for you

yeah absolutely I think kind of sport in general has been kind of life-changing had a really positive effect on me so many ways I had a really quite difficult period in my life probably the last kind of decade or so maybe a little bit longer, where I experienced just some quite intense, quite heavy grief.

So I unfortunately lost my mother very suddenly when she was relatively young, followed by my father then, five years later, again, quite suddenly. Up till then, had just a relatively calm and quite normal family life, really close family. And yeah, that all happened just like really quickly and when my mum became ill then my dad needed caring for he was completely heartbroken and then and then he passed now during those same years i became a mother myself yeah and my three sons were born they're now eight 11 and 13 so i was kind of just navigating my way through that really and you know um bringing bringing my sons up while dealing with this pretty huge grief horrific grief yeah and i was just kind of getting through

and I wanted my boys very much to have, you know, my focus was giving them a normal, lovely, warm-up bringing the same as I'd had. And I think I did that. I'd hope to say, you know, we kind of did achieve that. But I was left them with this, as anybody who has experienced grief will know, this not necessarily, you know, hysterical tears and things like that. But I was left with this immense sadness. So I'd put the boys to bed at night and just be left just feeling really,

have this kind of emptiness a brief. So how did pickleball help? Well, what helped start filling out was just to exercise or started running, first of all, tried different sports. I tried football, gender women's football team,

tried tennis, tried swimming, lots of different things, and then discovered pickleball. And I just absolutely loved it, like straight away. I just felt really passionate about it. It just sparked a bit of joy in me if I'm honest.

Let me bring Karen in to share with the joy, the pickleball joy. Hi, Anisa. How did you? I can see you smiling, listening to Caroline's story. It's just that pickleball was the thing that brought her joy. Tell us a bit more about it and how you got involved with the game. So my neighbours saw pickleball being played in Florida

and they thought it looked like a great game because they saw lots of seniors playing outside. outside for hours on end and they thought I've got to bring this game back to England so they were one of the first clubs set up

in a village hall opposite where I live actually and it'd been going for several years before I saw them walking up looking very sporty and saying where are you off to

and they said to Pickleball and I said Pickle what so they asked me to go and have a look they put a paddle in my hand I started playing with it and the reason I smiled at Caroline saying Joy

is that I recognise a few months later, that I was connecting with my inner child every time I played pickleball and it's joy you feel. So, yeah, I definitely get that, Caroline. Are you involved, you know, you're making me want to play it, definitely, like anything that brings joy. And are you involved in organising the English Open in Telford? I am the tournament director, actually. So, yeah, this has been going for about five years. and our first one started with 239 competitors. And this year we've got 2,350-odd competitors.

So it's incredible the growth. There might be other people listening and fancy having a go. Caroline, how easy is it for people to try this? Yeah, I think it is one of the most accessible sports, actually, and everyone can try it. So within the club that I go to, we have people, I would say, in the late teens, right up to their 70s and 80s play in. I think it's really that the scoring system can be a little bit tricky to pick up.

That took me a few weeks, I would say, until I'd got that completely. But in terms of the agility and things needed, I think it's pretty accessible for all of us. You've got to get around the court a little bit, but not to generalise some of our older players, 70s and 80s, boy, can they get around the court? Can they get to the net? Sometimes quicker than me. We'd like to hear it. Yeah, and it's social as well.

So, you know, it's really sociable. So you're mixing with people of all different ages. We've got a social group now on WhatsApp, about 30 of us. Again, all different ages. We meet up a few times a week and play for hours. Well, Caroline and Karen, sold. Thank you very much for bringing. Let me just say that.

If anyone does want to have a go, go along to the Pickleboy England website and look at our club locator. Find somewhere close by to... Wonderful. To buy. Fantastic. Caroline Benson and Karen Mitch in there maybe an idea for this weekend.

I think the weather's going to be lovely. I'm going to end a listener week, which again, thank you so much, especially thank you to Diane McGregor and Louise Cooley, the two producers who brilliantly put together all the items over the week. But I'm going to end with one of your messages.

This has come in from Carla, who was in yesterday, if you heard the breadwinner's discussion, she said, when I got home yesterday afternoon, my kitchen was spotless. The floor had even been mopped, something my husband admitted he's never done before. Turns out all I needed to do,

was to get him to do it. To get him to do it was to speak on national radio. Join me tomorrow for a roundup of listener week on weekend Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Ever wish someone had sat you down when you started your job and said, by the way, these are the vital do's and don't, stick with these, and you'll be fine. Well, what you need is that when it hits the fan, golden rules of PR. With me, Simon Lewis. And me, David Yowland.

Whether it's how to start a network, plan for a crisis, or managing a challenging client, it's all in our new mini-series. The principles we come back to again and again on this show that apply equally both to spin doctors and anyone trying to do any kind of PR for yourself, in your community, your work, wherever.

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