Woman's Hour - 08/09/2026

Episode Date: September 8, 2026

Women's voices and women's lives - topical conversations to inform, challenge and inspire.

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You can also enjoy a range of our podcasts, ad-free, with an Amazon music subscription. Hello, I'm Nula McGovern, and welcome to Women's Hour from BBC, Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to the program. Emily Sanday in the Woman's Hour studio this morning. Can you believe it's 15 years since her landmark debut album, Our Version of Events? She's getting ready to celebrate and she will be performing this weekend at Radio 2 in the park.

That album, I'm sure you remember this. Read all about it with Professor Green. Emily sang that song at the closing ceremony of London 2012 Olympics. We'll be speaking to her in just a moment. But also today, Nadine Dorees, the former Conservative Culture Secretary, is now a senior member of Reform UK. She will also be with us this hour. She's speaking out after being depicted in deep fake pornographic videos created by AI. Also, we'll meet Beau Greaves.

She is the only woman to beat the world number one darts champion, Luke Littler. And it's just one of her many outstanding achievements. And do I have Darts fans out there listening this morning? Those who play, those who watch, what is the appeal for you? Tell us all. Get in touch 8444 on social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour. You can email us through our website.

We're going to hear how it lands for Bow. She's also known as Bow and Arrow on the circuit. Other ways to get in touch. WhatsApp for a voice note, that number, 037.3.700. 100-100-444 or on most smart speakers you can say Alexa ask BBC sounds to send a comment. We'll also talk about being pregnant in France. My guest says you're treated like a VIP.

We will hear more. But let us begin. It's Radio 2 in the park this weekend. Among those gracing the main stage at City Park in Sterling will be the singer-songwriter Emily Sande. Emily Sanda, MBE, I should say, for her services to music. Delighted to have your distinctive voice joining us on Women's Hour. Oh, thank you.

And what a way to start. I think everybody will be just remembering and, you know, perhaps bringing them back to various moments that they've heard that song or been singing that song. You will be performing on Saturday in Stirling as part of Radio 2 in the park. How do you feel before a gig? How are you feeling right now or preparing for it? I feel excited. I mean, performing in Scotland is always very joyful and it always feels like a homecoming and especially to do it for a radio, you know, performance. It's exciting but also no wrecking because you really want to make sure that whatever's recorded and broadcasts sounds as good as it possibly can. But I love being on stage with my band. We're like a family and it's just fantastic to be able to condense it down to songs that hopefully people remember. So I think it will be a joyful occasion. I think even going through, though, that little montage that we have will be bringing back so many memories. And with that, you talk about trying to give, you know, the best that you possibly can.

But there's, I suppose, only so much within your control, I'm thinking, when you're on stage like that. Are you able to let the things that you cannot take control off go? Yes, I mean, you have to. It's like stepping onto a plane, really. I think once you step onto the stage, practices over and you just have to let go and be present. I think that's the hardest thing to do because if you're too worried about being perfect, whatever that may be in your head,

you can become so nervous that it ruins the experience of being there in the first place. So I've learned over the years, yes, we all want to give our best, but that's days before the show. You have to really get into that zone. So now I'm warming up, I'm getting ready for it, but when I hit the stage,

I want to really be present with the crowd. Yeah, yeah. So you kind of need to pull yourself back into the moment. Yes. The Mighty Shaka Khan is headlining. Do you have plans to bump into her backstage? I will try my best. I'll try my best.

I did a meltdown festival for her a couple of years ago at the Royal Festival Hall. And obviously I've been a fan since childhood. So to cheer a stage or be on the stage, same stage as Shakikhan, is a great honour. Yeah, I've been lucky enough to see her a couple of times and it's electric. And we all know every single word, every single song as well. So you can imagine to get that from the audience. You also have a new tour that will be celebrating the 15 years, releasing tickets this Friday. How does it feel?

It feels, well, wow, time really does fly. We were just saying that just before we came on air. We were like, wow, London 2012 doesn't feel like that long ago, but I guess it was. Yeah, it feels like yesterday, but also just a wonderful opportunity to say thank you to the fans for us to come together and celebrate the album. But also I want to highlight that there has been 15 years. in between, I have grown artistically. So revisiting those stories and songs and kind of working out what they mean to me now will be an exciting challenge.

So our version of events is the album. It was the biggest selling album in the UK of 2012 and 2013. More than 5 million copies worldwide, had a Brit Award, two Ivor Novello Awards. But when you look back over those 15 years and you talk about growing artistically, what do you think you have learned? about music and about the industry and yourself. It's a pretty big question.

Yeah, I've learned that you have to keep that internal focus. I think that first album, the success was wonderful, but it really was quite a big surprise. And there is this innocence of having no expectations. I wanted to release an album. I wanted to speak my truth. And sometimes after the success, you then try to put these expectations upon yourself,

which I think just stifles you artistically. So I think the biggest thing I've learned is just relax and try and return to that innocence and hopefully it will resonate with people but you can never second guess it. Yeah, I wonder is there a way to do that as I was just thinking about you and your story and there's such scrutiny,

particularly when there's a huge debut, as we see with artists now, some that come into this studio. Like, is there a way to manage that success without being overwhelmed by it? I think it's about staying small. keeping your circle small, you know, because suddenly you think, I've got so many friends. I've got, you know, I'm so popular.

And then really you're like, no, you're still the weird kid that needs to be back in the music room. The creative, sorry, yes, the creative kid. So stay in the music room and keep those, keep the eccentricities and keep the strangeness about you, you know, and don't get too caught up in the hype. It's easier said than done, but keep your focus on the music and that expression. And I was also reading, you did drop out of a medical. degree to become a musician.

I was struck by your parents who were very much pushing your musical ambitions. Yes, yeah. I think because they'd just seen me completely obsessed since I was seven years old. To my mum, it was obvious that I should go into the creative arts. But at the same time, they would have been proud and, you know,

supportive if I would have continued down the medical path. But they just saw this longing, this burning that wasn't something it wasn't really about fame. It was about the musical expression. You talk about, you know, keeping it's small, your circle and allowing your creativity to flow that way. But when you are out at the spotlight, how do you channel that creativity? What does that look like? You know, enjoying

life. I think sometimes we put pressure on ourselves as songwriters because it's always an opportunity to be writing the best song of your life, you know. But if you haven't lived, you haven't experienced anything or you're too conscious of trying to do that, I think you lose your creativity. So I try and live life and just hope that those moments of inspiration will come when I'm ready. Do they come at any particular time? Or do you just have to always be kind of alert? Always have a piano. Close on a notebook. Yeah. And a no pod. Yeah. Let me turn to some of the people. You've collaborated with so many. It's a long list. I could say Alicia Keys, Leon, Lewis, Rihanna, Tiny Temperance, many, many more. How do you decide who you're going to

collaborate with or write for? Usually you know, they'll approach me, which is lovely, because you really want someone to really want to work with you. I think sometimes you can get sent lists of people who are looking for this song, that song, which is nice, but I love to be in the studio with somebody. I love that they've approached me from my specific style of writing. So I've been lucky that through my music or people hearing it, people have reached out.

And do you have any favorite songs that you've worked on with other people? Yeah, there's a song I did with Alicia Keys called Not Even the King, which she put in her musical. So it was a lovely moment. I sat with Alicia and her mom as well and we're just watching this musical a few years later after writing the song and I thought, wow, this is a childhood dream come true.

Now that is interesting that you say that because I was speaking with a friend last night saying you're coming on and she's a huge fan of yours as well and she says, why hasn't she done a musical of all her music? That would be great. I have been kind of trying to find roots to do that

but it would be something I'd love to do in the future for sure. Yeah. I mean, is it a difficult thing like that to get off the ground, do you think? Yes, because, you know, it's finding the story. It's maybe rewriting the songs. It's all the, you know, the publishing, all of this, you know, all the paperwork needs to be done in the background. But I think if I was ever to do a musical or an opera,

I'd want to maybe start fresh material. Oh, really? Maybe. But we'll see. You never know. I saw Column Tabin, the author, is doing an opera. libretta and I was like that's so interesting like having we'd say one discipline and then really exploring this other one but you do have Alicia Keys I guess as well yeah I did get a

little advice yeah exactly um with new songs um you've taken the pressure off yourself to always come up with them it sounds like from what I'm hearing from you yeah I mean I never want to repeat myself so um it is about how do I find that character in essence which people are familiar with and at the same time make sure I'm growing with the music and finding new genres and new ways to express yourself is always exciting. We've a lot of artists that come through here, some of them young,

and I wonder how you feel the music industry has or hasn't changed for female artists over the past 15 years. I mean, I think the positive, I would say we have a lot more control. There's less gatekeepers than perhaps when I began. I think the internet is actually a positive in that sense. But at the same time, I think there's so much music now. Sometimes it can feel overwhelming and that you're a drop in the ocean.

So it's just getting that balance right and trying to see the new way of releasing music, trying to, yeah, find the positives within that. But I don't know. It's a hard thing to navigate. And I do feel for new artists coming out right now because it's very expensive to go on tour. very expensive to get out there. And I do feel the gap between those who can afford it and those aren't is widening. Why is it so expensive to go on tour?

Many would think that artists make their money from going on tour. Well, there's just so many costs from the travel, from your band. You know, you want to put on a great production. So by the time you look at the bottom line, you know, sometimes you're breaking even and it's difficult. But that for me is the whole point of what I do. You know, it's great. I love being in the studio, but the whole point is I'm writing music for people to hear and then be able to experience live. So it is difficult, especially if you don't have a label backing you or helping support the tour.

So I guess, you know, trying to simplify things as much as possible. Piano on stage, you know, that's probably how, if I was starting again now, that's probably how I try to get out there. Well, you do have radio too in the park in Sterling. So you're kind of not too far from home, right? Will you pop by and see the family? I think my mum and dad are going to come. Excellent. Yes.

Because I was in Aberdeen last week actually trying to finish off some songs. So they're great. They're still very supportive. And you have siblings as well. One of your sisters who say keeps you very grounded. Oh yeah. My younger sister, Lucy, she keeps me very in tune with. She's like, just remember.

This is about soul. So she's my Oracle. Well, have a great time. Thank you. Both in Sterling and on the tour that will start in October. BBC Radio 2 in the park takes place in Sterling the 11 to the 13th of September tickets are available now BBC.com.com.

UK forward slash radio 2 in the park and highlights will be available which of course Emily is won BBC 2, BBC I player and BBC Sounds hope you have a great time. Thank you very much. Thanks for getting in touch. Let me see darts. Darts is a brilliant indoor sport.

I started a Ladies League in our population of only 2009-78 and only retired last year at the age of 80. I still play and still encourage younger people to join at your favourite pub or club. So says Shirley. Now, let me move on. Nadine Dorese, you might have seen, has revealed

she's been a victim of deep fake porn, something she is called a violation like nothing else. The former Conservative MP and Cabinet Minister, who's now a high-profile member of Reform UK, says Thames Valley Police informed her last week that they had arrested a man over false pornographic images of her, as well as other female MPs and TV presenters. Deep fake pornography is a form of image-based sexual abuse where someone's

image is turned into pornography using AI, artificial intelligence. Nadine Doris has decided to waive her anonymity to talk about her experience publicly. She joins me on the line now. You're very welcome to the programme. What did the police tell you about what they had discovered? I just received a phone call out of the blue telling me that someone had been arrested, they'd seized a number of his devices which contained thousands of videos and images of deep-faying pornography. He'd released those onto the internet and tagged my name onto them. And I think the police officer said that she'd recognised my face also. And then they made content with me to tell me that he'd been arrested. I think they possibly thought that maybe I'd been seen them or been aware of them.

I wasn't until I heard from the police. And now it's going to go. The case will go through the judicial process while the police continue to do. I think it's already with the CPS do what they do in terms of evidence gathering. And how did you feel when you heard this? It must have been quite shocking. Yeah, it was for a number of reasons really. One is, I've written about this in more detail.

today in my daily mail column, but it's kind of like two aspects to this. The first is that, you know, I became an MP in 2005 and I've been in public life a long time. And when people, like, throw, attack you online or abusive about you and a rude about you, which actually as a woman in public life happens every day, you can counter what is the misrepresentation or the misinterpretation or the unfactual things with the fact. And you can put your side forward, whether people want to be malicious and difficult is another issue, but you can state what the truth is. With these AI videos, they use a deep web process called notification process, whereby they take their victim and they use this AI to undress their victim. So on those videos, it was me.

It was my face, my gestures, my eyes, my hands, my body. it was all me, except it wasn't me. And what you can't do when this is out there is you can't and see on behalf of people what they've already seen. You can't erase somebody's mind. You can change somebody's point of view by giving them the facts and they can then decide what they want to do. But once someone has seen it, you can't take it back. And that for me felt, I mean, it was the first time in 25 years in public life that I felt humiliated. It was the first time I felt embarrassed. And that was like a whole new thing to me.

Yes. Even though, of course, you have nothing to be embarrassed over. But it was me. It's very difficult to tell. They use such clever technology. It's almost impossible to tell what is fake and what is real. And that actually is a story in itself. We're sitting on the dawn of a new revolution in AI and technology.

And I honestly think in 2005, I'd already been in Westminster working for five years at, but in 2005, if I had known that putting my head above the parapet involved what it had over the years, because of course I also had a stalker for nine years, which ended up in, he was ended up having to pay court costs of hundreds of thousands of pounds. I've had abuse like, you know, I think I'd probably have some of the worst abuse. I don't always talk about it and I don't make an issue because I don't really want it to discuss it. It's not comfortable to discuss it.

But, you know, it's not the first telephone call I've had from the police. Most of the time I just say to the police, just give them a warning. You know, I had somebody who wanted to lock me in a burning car and watch as the flesh melted from my face. The police said he's got a wife, a young child, a mortgage. Do you want us to prosecute or give him a warning? Right. You're wrongly, I went with the warning. But, you know, it's like you have to deal with that as a woman.

in public sphere these days. And this is a whole new thing, AI, and I'm not sure. But let me finish your thought there, because I think where you were starting, you were saying if you had known back in 2005. Yeah. Well, I was trying to explain some of the stuff I've dealt with since 2005. But do you mean? I don't think if we'd ended up here, if I could have seen in 2005,

where I was going to be now, I would have stepped into public life with the naivety and enthusiasm that I did. So you think you may not have stepped into public life? Yeah, no, I definitely think that. It's, you know, because it doesn't just affect your family, your friends, everyone around you. It's, no, there have been, well, obviously, after the police phoned me, Thames Valley police phoned me, it obviously brings back a lot of the stuff that you've dealt with over the past 20 years and how it impacts your family and your friends

and the techniques, some of these people who attack you use on the internet. You know, some that people may not even be aware of, but particularly if you have a stalker, what they try to do is, you know, alienate other people towards you. And it's not just mob attacks, but it's institutions and organisations. People, you know, don't want to become involved with you because they're scared of what's happening to them because they're involved with you. And it's been pretty horrible, actually, over the past 20 years.

Get to hear, makes it even worse. And, of course, you introduced the Online Safety Act when you were in Boris Johnson's cabinet in 2021. I mean, from what I'm hearing you say, you don't think it's working, do you? No, so I did the foreword to a new report by an organisation called Brig Brother Watch, which is looking at how the Online Safety Act and other legislation has been used, and it just isn't being used for the purpose. For me, particularly, having been a health minister for two years

and having dealt with mental health, particularly with children and young people, and the number of, you know, an interesting fact is that, during COVID, the number of suicides went down, but it didn't in the 16 to 24 age group. And what concerned me, I was the person who received the prevention of future death reports from coroners. I was the person who was being informed by coroners how children were algorithms for targeting children online, how they were obtaining substances to take their own lives, even to the point of giving them instructions to leave laminated cards for their parents not to touch the substances. And so when I became Secretary of State of,

state, that was something that was very much I'd been involved with for two years and I wanted to introduce the Online Safety Act to prevent this, to go some way towards preventing the number of suicide that we were seeing in the 16 to 24 age group. But the Online Safety Act became literally a dog's dinner over and I left in 2023. It's been through a number of, it became what, it became what I called a Christmas tree bill, one that MPs used to hang their own particular, baubles on, which gave them their hits on social media, gave them their newsletters and their constituency. And yeah, I had nothing to do with protecting children and young people and did nothing to help reduce the number of suicides. And as you mentioned suicide, I will say

if people have been affected by the issues we're discussing with Nadine Dories, you can find help and support to links at actionline.bbc.co.ukuk forward slash action line. But with specificity for example, when we get into some of these issues. Last week, Prime Minister Andy Burnham said he would back Georgia Harrison's campaign for Georgia's law. That would compel platforms to remove non-consensual, intimate images immediately rather than allowing the 48 hours to take them down. Do you support that campaign?

Well, we have to be very careful on what we call intimate images. Yes. If it's what I've just been through, which is fake. pornography, intimate, I think Georgia's, I'm not sure if it was Georgia, there was a Labour female MP who had images of her on the internet in a bikini that she tried to get removed. Intimate images, yeah, this is, you know, this fake technology is, it provides malicious people who would in the past have just, you know, put the usual abusive comments under, you know, if you read the comments into my daily mail column sometimes, you'd be horrified.

You know, the comments that go under things like your newspaper columns, on Twitter, on Instagram, on TikTok, that's what they did before. And you had some control over that. Fake, this fake technology is something that's very different. So that's a yes for supporting that law? Well, I would have to see the wording. But if we're talking about using new to AI and the notification, process available on the dark web, then yes.

Yes, I think with Georges, I think it is wider than that, considering some of the issues she has been through before. But let me turn to Reform for a moment. Women for Reform was launched last week. What is it? What will it achieve? I think there's a perception that, you know, reform is an organisation which women are, have a huge input and, you know, we may be underrepresented in terms of MPs. I think we only

have Sarah Pochin, but there are a huge number of women who are involved in reform and helping to shape and fashion the policies, particularly moving forward. And women for reform is about letting people know that it's, I suppose, a women-friendly. You know, I remember the Conservative party, a party and that women's issues are. given full consideration. I remember the Conservative Party when David Cameron became Prime Minister, I have some experience in this, he was targeted very much for having a women problem, that that Conservative Party was not a friendly party towards women. And I think what we're trying to do is almost navigate ourselves away from that, where it's a party which is, and

our policies are going to be very much thought through with women considered at the heart of all the policies that we make moving forward, given that we've only released a few policies so far. But as we move forward towards a general election, we want women to know their policies which affect women will be right at the heart. For example, equality legislation, which you may have heard of,

the DIA policies that we have issues with, there have been some really, again, you know, rumors which are just based in no truth, that, you know, women who are pregnant will be able to be exact, that's absolutely not the case. You know, and I think it's an organisation to put forward those arguments. You will have seen with the TUC

who were protesting saying that they called the women for reform and the policies that were launched a shameless attempt to distract from the party's so-called sexist policies and candidates. Honestly, there are no sexist policies in reform.

And I don't know if Fraschman would be able to get away with it. He's got women like Layla Cunningham, myself, Sarah Pochin. You know, I would say all very strong women with very strong opinions. Anyone who thinks we'd let Nigel Farage get away with introducing sexist parties, apart from anything else, Nigel just isn't, you know, he would be the first person to say he wanted, you know, a woman candidate. He wanted, in every by-election, he's wanted female candidates.

Nigel Farage is the first person who wants to, for want to, for want to a better word, feminized reform. He wants women in key positions. A couple of issues that TUC comment was in response to specifically the women and Motherhood Act proposal put forward by reform. Again, I think that is also what they're putting forward is a misrepresentation. One I'd say to the TUC is, why don't you go and talk to Labour about the fact that they've never had a female Prime Minister and perhaps target your anger and your time and your resources

towards getting labour to be less misogynistic as a party and more open to having female leaders in your own party? And the TUC does go through each of the specific policies. which they feel are detrimental to women coming from reform. But let us turn to Nigel Farage. How much confidence do you have in him as your leader? A reform wouldn't exist without Nigel Farage. And it's, you know, if Nigel Farage were to leave tomorrow,

it would just be not good for us. Because Nigel Farage is the man who's been saying, he's the only politician leading a party that I think the general public can believe in trust at the moment, Because he's been saying the same thing for 30 years. He doesn't blow with the wind. He doesn't decide on a policy on the spare of the moment for when it's convenient for him. He is a leader who has been saying exactly the same thing

and talking about exactly the same policies for 30 years. When you listen to Nigel Farage speak, you know, this isn't something he's just made up. It's something he believes. So that is very clear that you do have confidence in him. I mean, there are some that would say a party should be bigger than one particular person. And it is. It certainly is. But you're saying it wouldn't, that it wouldn't survive.

As you say, it wouldn't survive without Nigel Farage, for example. A couple of issues, though. A parliamentary investigation into the five million he received from a major reform donor. Christopher Harbon was relaunched following Farage's re-election in Clacton. After a by-election, he called in his Essex seat. The Metropolitan Police are also investigating whether payments to reform in the weeks before the last election complied with donation laws. Last week it was revealed by an undercover Channel 4 and verbatim investigations that Farage was present at a meeting in which it was suggested

a US donor give £500,000 to reform through his UK-based son, something not allowed under UK electoral law. You say, for example, you have confidence in Nigel Farage, but can you understand that many people think your party has a problem when it comes to how it's funded? All parties are funded externally. I mean, Labor is funded through the trade unions and private donations like Lord Alley, which we saw a great deal of in the press. The Conservative Party has very wealthy party donors.

But these are about what is allowed within UK law. Yeah, exactly. And that's the point I want to address. No money has come into a reform bank account from foreign donations. No money, reform have never commissioned a poll or paid for a poll with money, which originally. originated from a foreign bank account. Or there is a process overseen by lawyers within reform. And believe me, there are many donations people try to make to reform which get rejected.

There is a legal process. And the reason why that legal process is in place, because to accept a donation from foreign money abroad would be political suicide. We do not do it. It has never happened. But are you not concerned about what you saw in that documentary? No, I'm not at all. You know, in the same way that we saw a BBC documentary about Trump's splice, which is now a court case taking place,

I would like to see an examination of that video to see if that was doctored in the same way that the BBC doctored the Trump video. But what I do know is that Nigel Farage was at that lunch. He was told that a poll had been, the results of a poll which had been done by a polling organization, which came out well for reform. Nigel Farage said, boom, thank you. He didn't say, boom, here's the money. thank you, we've paid for that because we didn't. It was during the by-election,

he was asked to have lunch for these people to be told the details of a poll. He was told them, he said, thank you very much. Let us turn back. Let us turn back just to the concept you have put forward. Are you accusing Channel 4 and verbatim of splicing the video? I'm not doing that on Women's Hour.

I've done it with Channel 4 and Channel 4 news. So if Nigel Farage is under investigation, which he isn't, by the way, and neither is the party. So we've yet to see anything happen as a result of this because no crimes have been committed, no laws have been broken. My guess is that you're going to hear a lot of dialing down on this over the media

because nothing's going to happen as a result. But what I'm saying is if there was an investigation into the result of that video, then the video should be under the same kind of scrutiny as reform would be under. You know, it was Channel 4 who launched a sting in 2020. in the Clacton by-election, who it was discovered paid an actor to appear to be an activist. I do. Channel 4 have a history on this. Well, I do not have a response to you from Channel 4 right now and the accusation that you're making at them that you say you have also made in other places.

What did strike me... On Channel 4 news. What, pardon? I made it on Channel 4 news. On Channel 4 news. Well, with that, they may have responded to you there. I don't have a response for you right now. But what struck me is that there was not a woman to be seen in any of those conversations about funding or donations.

It was all men. Does reform have a woman problem? I mean, it was two-party. Well, just again, you know, if all three leaders, if you looked at Nigel Farage, Kemi, Batesonok and Andy Burnham, if you look at their close team about them, it's politics is a spats. The role of spads is a profession. and an occupation that a lot of young men go into. So if you look at the people around Kemi Bajnock, you will see a lot of young men and Andy Bernou.

And it's the same with Nigel Farage. But what I would say is you saw two aids, two male aids, both have been suspended from the party or have left resigned from the party. Because they had to. Sorry? Because they had to step down. Yeah, of course, yeah. No, they had to.

They were arrogant and they didn't tell the truth. You know, they said in one of their, in that interview, they said, oh, you know, so-and-so-so has given a donation. And that wasn't true at all. Those names were bleaked out in the video because it simply wasn't true. And nor was the perception given by that video when it was shown. Let us leave us there, Spads.

That's some of the lingo that's here as special advisors to the various politicians. But there is a question of why your leader that you do have confidence in is surrounded by some young men, like you speak about there. As is, Camie Batesonok and as is Andy Burnham. And I don't have details on those people. people surrounding either of those politicians right now because they haven't been in the headlines for details like there was with this particular story.

But Nadine Doryes, who's come on to speak to us about a number of issues this morning. Thank you very much for joining us. You're very welcome. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. I do want to also read a couple of statements that have come into us, one from the Thames Valley Police. Thames Valley Police is investigation reports of deep fake images of women, which have been published online on the 4th of December 2025. A 36-year-old man from Reading was arrested on suspect.

of distribution with intent to cause alarm, distress, in humiliation, in connection with the investigation. The man was interviewed by detectives while in custody. He was later released under investigation while our inquiries are ongoing. Also, turning to that issue of staying, should I say, with the issue of deep fakes. The statement from the Department of Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, because we were talking about the online bill.

We're deploying the full power of the state, both online and offline, to have violence against women and girls within a decade. This includes better protecting victims of intimate image abuse and helping them get the justice they deserve. We've also introduced offences of creating or requesting someone else creates non-consensual intimate images, including deep fakes. We've strengthened the Online Safety Act to make the intimate image abuse offences, priority offences, requiring in scope services to prevent it appearing online in the first place

and swiftly remove it if it does. 8444-4 if you would like to get in touch. Your sales order says one thing. Your inventory says another. Your spreadsheet says, good luck. Odu brings your business together on a single platform, from sales and accounting to inventory and marketing. Visit Odu.com to book a demo.

It's ODbolo.com. Get more with BBC Podcasts, wherever you listen. Be the first to listen to your favorite shows, like evil genius, good bad billionaire, and you're dead to me, with a subscription to BBC Podcasts Premium on Apple Podcasts. You can also enjoy a range of our podcasts ad-free with an Amazon music subscription. Let me turn to pregnancy.

It can be a very different experience depending on where you live, not just because of the healthcare you receive, but because of how the culture around you treats a pregnant woman. The British journalist Rachel Hosey is expecting her first baby in France where she's been struck by how much attention and consideration pregnancy receives. She wrote a piece last week in The Times, headlined, In France, I'm a VIP mum-to-be. And I got us wondering, can we learn anything from the French experience?

So to explore the differences between pregnancy in France and England, Rachel is with us on the line from her home in the French Var region. And with me in the studio, we have Sarah Seror, who has had babies in both countries. Sarah is French, but she's the founder of the London-based private midwifery provider, the motherhood practice. She was inspired to launch here after experiencing those different approaches to pregnancy in both countries. Rachel, let me start with you and your article. It's not with the medical side, we'll come to that,

but you felt like the reception you got as a pregnant woman was quite different in day-to-day settings like supermarkets or public transport. Yes, I have been very impressed with how I've been treated as a pregnant woman in France. Obviously, I do not have a direct comparison because I have not, I was back in the UK in June, but I have not gone through a full pregnancy in the UK. But they are very well set up here. When you're in the supermarket or the post office, there are priority counters for pregnant women, also for disabled people or elderly people.

But people are very receptive, I think, to treating pregnant women nicely and with kindness and consideration here. And yes, I'm sure we'll touch on the healthcare as well, but I've been incredibly impressed. Sarah, you've heard babies in France and the UK. did you see as the difference? So I thank you for inviting me. You're welcome. And I think one of the main difference I experienced was being more relaxed in France simply because I knew who to call from the very beginning of the pregnancy. So in France, you have this, say, a dedicated midwife called a referent midwife from the moment you find out your pregnant. And that was very reassuring for me. Whereas in the UK, I think there's a stressful period in the first.

trimester and in the weeks after birth where you don't really have anyone to talk to. And to me, that was really anxiety driven. And that's what prompted me those gaps to create the motherhood practice. And so with that, particularly those early weeks, to try and support women? Yes, exactly. So in France, you do, when you learn you're pregnant, you do appointments with a midwife from the get-go. and that's why we try to replicate that service in the UK, offering a named midwife with you throughout the journey.

Rachel, what surprised you the most in France from a medical point of view? Well, as soon as I found out I was pregnant, I emailed a midwife who was local to me and she immediately prescribed me to go and get two blood tests, taken 48 hours apart to check the pregnancy hormone was rising as it should. I had my first appointment with her at six weeks, and she did me an ultrasound and we could see the baby's heartbeat and see the baby on the screen. It was just a little blob at that point, but it was a blob with a heartbeat, which was amazing.

And then I had another appointment with her at 10 weeks and scanned again. And I see her every month, the same woman, and we do a scan and we do the checks. And she tells me what I need to know about, you know, vitamins I should be adding into my regime. She prescribes me for blood tests and urine tests. but I actually completely agree that in the first trimester, the reassurance I got from those appointments was incredible. I think it's a brilliant thing that culturally we are so much more aware of how common miscarriage it is and there is less taboo around it.

However, when you have that knowledge, it can be an incredibly anxiety-inducing time. And I do have, you know, I have friends in the UK who've had terrible experience of missed miscarriage, so no symptoms. And their first appointment in the UK is their 12-week scale. and they found out there that they lost the baby weeks ago. And I think that's incredibly traumatic thing to go through. Of course, whenever you find out, it's terrible news.

But I think having the reassurance of those regular checks is amazing. And I completely understand why a lot of people in the UK pay for extra private reassurance scans. I should make it clear as well. France in the UK, they fund maternity care differently. The NHS provides care free at the point of use. France uses a state health insurance system. maternity care largely reimbursed by the state and complementary insurance

often covering additional costs. Sarah, Rachel, writes about undergoing lots of more blood tests that she talks about their scans and appointments compared to English friends. But what are your thoughts about the extent of testing in France? I mean, some might think it's too much. Yeah, it can feel like a lot and especially on the blood tests.

But what happens is that in France there's heavy investments. during the pregnancy, so you have lots of appointments. And it's a very, it's an investment because you get reassurance at every step of the way of your pregnancy. You also have birth preparation classes and physio is also built in in the postpartum care. So it can feel like a lot, but when you actually look at the results, birth is much less medicalized. The C-section rate is about half of the UK's C-section rates. So it pays off in terms of

it's interesting. That word medicalized because some might feel the French is over-medicalized, but you're saying really if you look at it in a certain sense of C-sections, it is not. Exactly. And let's try to unwrap this medicalized. The birth education, the birth preparation, is built in in the healthcare system in France. So it's not medical as such. It just adds up on the appointments, but it's really cool to being prepared and to have a good experience post-partum afterwards.

And I think in the UK, the difference, there are more appointments for a first pregnancy compared to subsequent pregnancies, but French appointments are longer than the UK ones. I think they're around 30 minutes compared to 15, as they could be in the UK. There's a lot of discussion. We've had many of them here on the program.

in the UK at the moment about whether women feel listened to in maternity care. What about being listened to? It's a really important part of reports that are coming out on how maternity units are run. Let me start with the fact that I had great experience in both countries when it comes to birth. And I felt like my birth man was respected in both countries. But stepping away a little bit from my personal experience, It's interesting to look again at the rate of emergency C-section between the two countries because it really points out to the ability of the healthcare system to pick up on early signs,

early warning signs from women and whether the healthcare is able to listen to the women when they speak up. And in France, it's about 14% in the UK. It's 24%. So it's higher than the overall C-section rate in France, which is around 20%. sense. Interesting. Rachel, I'm also wondering when it comes to being listened to, how would you describe that in the appointments or the, I suppose, also the choices you've had to, because there are many decisions to be made. At least you may have a birth plan, whether how things go with a birth plan is another discussion. But how does that part of it been for you?

I definitely feel listened to thus far. doing everything in French, which is obviously not my native language, poses a few difficulties. So I have had to ask lots of questions to check I'm understanding everything. But all the doctors and midwives I've seen have been very patient and very happy to answer all my questions to clarify things. You know, I'll have to see what it's like when it comes to actually giving birth and how listened to I feel then. However, my friends who have had babies here have all spoken incredibly positively about the labour experience. So I am hopeful. Okay.

Because we talk about the birth, but then postpartum, it's also quite different, isn't it, Sarah? Yes, and the difference in postpartum care is actually what prompted me to create a motherhood practice. So in the UK, it was my second child, and I had two visits of health lists. it is after bath. But after five days, everything stopped. I had no reassurance on the health of my baby, on how I was healing from the bath. And that was extremely stressful and led me to experience postpartum anxiety. In France, it's very different. You see the midwife that you saw in pregnancy postpartum. So she knows you by heart. And she knows how to detect a slight change in your baseline. And I think having that time with an own person is so important.

Pregnancy and birth is such a human experience. And you want to have someone experienced by your side who you know and trust. So that's what we try to bring. I thought it was really interesting. There is a greater emphasis on pelvic floor recovery, for example. Yes. And I mean, you know, if you gave birth by jelly, it's a sprain in your pelvis. if you gave birth by C-section, it's a major operation,

so you want someone to check your body physically. And the importance of pelvic floor education is huge influence. It's mandatory. It's been in place for over 40 years with proven results. And I was really surprised not to have that in the UK. So we systematically now, in our postpartum care, offer six weeks postnatal checkup. So that's something I think you think perhaps the UK could learn.

from France. Definitely. Anything you think France could learn from the UK so far, Rachel? Well, I think in pregnancy and maternity care, I think France is possibly doing it better. But I don't, you know, it's not a clear-cut comparison. And what I will say is that I think it's fantastic

that in the UK maternity leave is 12 months, whereas in France it's, I believe, 16 weeks, six of which have to be taken before you actually give birth. So that, if you ask me, is not very long at all off work afterwards. So I think, you know, it is swings and roundabouts. There are definitely benefits to both systems. And if I may add, I think there's a beautiful difference also between France and the UK.

In the UK, you have this culture of natural birth. And you have around 150 birth centres across the country. In France, it's something that is relatively new. You only have eight. and for me who wanted a natural bus, it was so reassuring to be able to give birth in a bus centre in the UK. So that's definitely something France has to pick up.

Yes, indeed. It'd be great if you could just get the best practices, wouldn't it, from all around the world, and create them in one place. Thank you both very much for coming in. Best of luck, Rachel, as you go ahead. May you have a wonderful experience and postpartum as well. We had Sarah Seror and Rachel Hosey speaking to us.

on the issues and the differences between France and the UK. We did approach NHS England about this specifically. They said improving maternity care remains a national priority. The NHS has invested in continuity of care for women with the greatest needs, strengthened postnatal support and expanded specialist perinatal pelvic health services across England, supporting women during pregnancy and at least 12 months after birth. While there's more to do, these improvements are helping ensure women receive safe, personalised and compassionate care before, during. after pregnancy.

Now, Darts, I've been asking you about it this morning, 84844, if you'd like to chime in or tune in. I hope you're tuned in already. Right, I'll throw out one name. Luke Littler, you may know. He is a Tarts champion. He's actually the world number one by the PDC, the Professional Darts Corporation.

My next guest is the only woman who has beat him. 22-year-old Beau Greaves is a woman of first, first woman to win a professional Darts Corporation ranking, PDC, the first woman to hit a nine darter. That is the perfect score in a PDC pro tour. And as of Friday, the first woman to win a match on the PDC

European tour. She is fresh from her most recent victory. Bo, Bowenaro. As she's known in the Darts World. Join me now. Good morning. Great to have you with us. Yeah, good morning. Thank you. How you feeling? After being, I suppose, crowned the first woman to win a match on a European tour? Yeah, obviously

really good. The sport was obviously amazing and yeah just another thing that obviously I achieved and hopefully I can go on to win more and obviously yeah just keep plodding along obviously it's hard being the only woman there

but you know it's going really well and I feel really proud of myself for that you say plodding along I have a feeling it's a bit more dynamic than that when you're up on stage in front of that crowd that are going crazy yeah obviously it can be really nerve-wrecking. The game I obviously did win, I set off

really bad and managed to just, obviously, calm down and calm my nerves and then obviously won, but yeah, it's it can be intimidating at times going on there playing a bloke, but I've got used to it though, so obviously I do expect myself to win them

kind of games and obviously play well, and yeah, keep, I say plodding along, but just keep doing what I'm doing, I think, is how I've always described. Well, it's working for you, you know. I'm thinking also when you went up against someone like Luke Littler, who people who don't even follow Darts will know his name, it must have a great confidence boost to win. Oh, it absolutely was. I didn't actually have my tour card at

the time, my professional status. Yes. You know, you want to call it. So, yeah, I was obviously to beat Luke as I did in that moment once I'd love just knocked my... That's all I'm pet's allowed. Yeah, to beat him as sometimes when I'm, it sounds a bit silly but when I'm not doing so, well I think I have beat Luke then surely I can beat anybody so I kind of use

it to my advantage sometimes. That's a great mindset to have. I mean, I saw some of the headlines after your victory was Littler beaten by a woman, Littler suffer a shock defeat in battle off the sexes and you would hope that we'd be away from media

coverage like that by now? Yeah, so it's something, obviously, that I'm kind of doing the move now. Obviously, I have so much support, but some of it is not very nice, and some of it is, can become quite personal, I think, when, you know, what social media is a good thing, but is also the kind of sometimes not a very nice place, and I am kind of going through the motion sometimes with it. But ultimately, I just try and like play the sport as I've always played it. You know, I've had mixed opinions on whether the women are good enough

or whether they can compete. And I am trying to literally do that path for the women. Yeah. Yeah, it's just what it is. Tell me a little bit about starting. I think were you 10 or 11 down the local pub with your dad? Yeah, I was saying my dad played, then my brother played, and then I kind of played a complete just family affair in the pub really.

Yeah, absolutely loved it. I was only 10, so I just started playing with my brother in the house and then joined the pub team. And then, yeah, kind of worked my way up through the Yorkshire rankings and then just carried on. Absolutely loved it. And that's why I started. And yeah, now I'm here, so it's a nice path.

Yeah. And you're blazing that trail. And I suppose physically doesn't make any difference with your male or female playing darts. It's tough. I never really know how to answer it because I am kind of being the men and doing really well. But it's tough.

Obviously, you know, a lot of them with the menopause, periods, that kind of physical body changes they go through. And sometimes I find my experiences that, Men seem to get over stuff extremely quickly and I seem to dwell on everything. I think that's something I've noticed recently is that I'll come off stage or I've got beat or, you know, and I kind of sit there and I think, oh, that wasn't very good or what people are going to think. And men just don't seem to care, whether they do or not. I don't know, but they show it a bit less than me. That's been a main thing for me, but yeah, it's what it is.

So you have spoken in the past about how you don't feel the same pressure when you play in all. women's tournaments as opposed to playing against men or boys, perhaps when you were young. Can you explain a little bit more about that? It's just I think when I obviously growing up I became really good in the women's game and

I was still playing against the men but my main focus was obviously the ladies game and then I think as I became really good I become obviously the number one and the best woman to kind of play and that does create a kind of pressure that everyone wants to beat you

and everyone's got a target on your back and at the start I looked at it as like a hard thing but then eventually I thought well if I am the best you have to play like it and you have to deal with them kind of pressures

and yeah and then obviously playing the men because I'm not expected to win as much it just kind of it's just a different mindset I just remember feeling a bit more relaxed against the men than I was against the woman. So interesting. I did see Phil the power tailor, which many

even non-darts player will be familiar with. He said when the ladies play, the atmosphere is 10 times better than any other game, which is fascinating. But I learned about something that I didn't know about previously, Bo, which is dartitis, a psychological mental block that can affect the player's ability to actually release that dart at the last moment. You've suffered from it, but obviously got over it. Yeah, so I suffered from that when I was 17, I think, roughly, maybe a bit younger.

I think thinking back to when it first started, it was probably, I was quite naive at the time. I didn't really kind of play into the whole anxiety thing, and I didn't really think, I never really understood when someone else was struggling. And obviously, when it hit me, it was like a whole new world had opened, and it was all these complicated emotions and of trying to just simply let go over that. yeah, I just couldn't do it. And I would say it's just the fear of missing. You know, it's one of them things.

That was it for me. I just wanted to be perfect all the time and it just is never going to happen. So I got a little bit of help. I spoke to people and I went to the dots and stuff. And it helped, but ultimately, I got myself out of it. And look at you now. Yeah, that's the thing.

I always say to people, you know, it's not the end. It's not the end of people say it's like a career end it. It's not. It's just something you have to teach your brain to deal with. Beau Greaves, professional darts player. We're going to look forward to what you do next. Thank you so much for joining us. I just want to go back to our Nadia Indori's interview.

A Channel 4 spokesperson has said, we stand by the public interest journalism in the investigation, which has been rigorously verified to ensure accuracy. We would encourage people to watch the investigation in full just in response to what the accusations Nadi and Doris was making during that. interview. Thanks so much for joining us on today's program back here again tomorrow 10 a.m. See you then. That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time.

Parenting a young child today means navigating a whirlwind of advice, opinions and relentless information. Tell me about it, Katie, but the good news is CBB's parenting download is here to take the edge off. Join me, Katie Thistleton, Radio One presenter and new mum. And me, Governor B, Mobo Award winning rapper and dad of two, as we discover and unpack what it really means to be a parent. From the art of negotiation to tips on dealing with parental anxiety. Each episode, we're joined by well-known parents and trusted professionals to share their own experiences.

People say you never know until you have your own, but no one ever really gets into what that means. And it's very true. Someone, when I was on my first walk with him alone in the pram, someone went, press agreement, congratulations, I went, cheers. And you went, welcome to the truth club. I went, what do you mean? You'll find out soon enough.

And to provide useful tools and advice to tackle the. the daily challenges that come with parenting, offering honest conversations and expert insight that can really help. The biggest thing that I've noticed since I became a negotiator is we don't listen. We're really good at pretending we listen and we do this, don't we? So our young people in our life especially are talking away. You've asked them a question. They're answering the question and you're like this.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Uh-mm. Because you're not really interested because you're already thinking about what's next. We've learned so much already. So whether you're a first-time parent, you've got multiple kids, you're a carer or a grandparent, this podcast is for you. Search for CBB's Parents in Download with me, Katie Thistleton. And me, Governor B, listen now on BBC Sounds. With a subscription to the BBC website and app, you can now get early access to your favorite BBC podcasts.

Listen to shows like You're Dead to Me, In Our Time, Good, Bad Billionaire, and more. Plus, there's all the other great benefits you get with a BBC subscription. From live streaming the BBC News channel and acclaimed documentaries to in-depth analysis and features, visit BBC.com forward slash subscribe to find out more.