Woman's Hour - 09/05/2025

Episode Date: May 9, 2025

The programme that offers a female perspective on the world

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Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. Welcome to the programme. There's a new pope, but what does this mean for the millions of Catholic women? We'll be discussing this. Naga Manchetti is used to doing the interviewing, but today I'll be asking her about her brilliant book called It's Probably Nothing.

Naga is examining the crisis in women's health and talks about her own experience of getting a diagnosis for something she suffered with her entire adult life at the age of 47. Also actor Laura Aikman, aka Smithy's girlfriend Sonia in Gavin and Stacey. She's also in the crime drama This City Is Ours. She'll be telling me about her new Disney Plus series called Suspect, the Shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes. Also on the programme today, we are discussing weddings, or rather, cancelled weddings.

So have you backed out of your nuptials? What was the fallout? How hard was it telling your family and friends, did you lose a lot of money? Did you become the gossip? How about this? You wanted to cancel a wedding, but you didn't. And how can you tell the difference between cold feet

and knowing you're about to make a mistake? We're going to be discussing this with Katie Snooks who cancelled her wedding and therapist Joanna Harris but we need your stories and experiences too. Maybe you're listening to us right now panicking because the florist, the cake, the invitations and the venue are all paid for, it's just you don't want to be there. Whatever your thoughts and opinions and remember you can remain anonymous and I do have a therapist on if you have a question get in touch in the usual way the text number is 84844 you can email the program via our website and you can whatsapp me on 03 700 100 444 and if you'd like to follow us on social media it's at bbcwomanshour that text number once again 8 84844. But first, Robert Francis Prevost has been chosen as the

new Pope and will be known as Leo XIV. He's the first American to fill the role, although he is considered as much a Cardinal from Latin America because of his many years he spent as a missionary in Peru. He is also known as a reformer and is believed to share Pope Francis's views on migrants, the poor and the environment. But in the context of women in the Church, where does he stand? Well joining me to talk about this is Kate McKelvie, the Executive Director of the Women's Ordination Conference that calls for women's ordination and gender equality in the Roman Catholic Church, and Ruth Gledhill, Assistant Editor at The Tablet.

Kate and Ruth, welcome. I'm going to come to you first, Ruth, it's the same question for both of you. What are your thoughts on the new Pope? Well I think it's amazing and I was really surprised. I think he's got such a lovely face, you know, he looks a really, really nice man and our editor at The Tablet, Brendan Walshche was educated by Augustinians and and he's been saying for days that he thought it might be Robert Fevost and then we kind of lost confidence really in the prediction because we just thought they would never go for a US Cardinal. Why did you think that? I suppose because

America's already so powerful in the world and with everything that's going on in America, I suppose they didn't want to kind of there to be a, we thought they wouldn't go for a cardinal who might be add to the divisions that are currently in the world. But I think this does the opposite of that. I think this will help to ease, move towards unity rather than increase divisiveness. I think it's a genius choice, certainly first impressions anyway. How about you Kate? I was equally surprised and I think just how youthful he looked, especially compared to Pope Francis in these past few years, it really, he seemed like an energetic man. And yeah, my first response was, oh my gosh, they picked an American.

But I was inspired by his words on the balcony, his first address to the people of Rome and to the world. And he mentioned bridge building, synodality, and invoked Pope Francis. So all of those things were what I was listening, hoping to hear and was listening for. I guess he is relatively young. He's only six, for a pope, he's relatively young. He's only six for a pope.

He's only 69. He's been called a reformer. What does that mean? What does that mean specifically in terms of women within the church? Kate? You know, I'm not sure I would use that word necessarily. I know in the past few years, he's been an enthusiast of the synodal process and work closely with Pope Francis.

I know that on the Dicastery for Bishops, Pope Francis pointed women to that commission, and so he does work with women. And he's close to his communities in Peru. And so as a pastor, certainly he must know that women are the backbone of the church, especially at the local level. And so although I don't know how much of a reformer

he is on this issue, he certainly should be aware that women are serving as deacons and priests in basically everything but name around the world. Ruth, what do we know about his views about women in the church? I think we do know that he, like Pope Francis, does not want to, what he describes as, clericalize women. And in other words, I think he is not in favor of women's ordination, certainly not at the moment. But I think he certainly, like Pope Francis did, would like to see more women in positions of leadership and influence within the church. So I think we might see under his papacy an emphasis on the synodality that Pope Francis

initiated. He might try and follow that through to a kind of conclusion and within that I think we will see the elevation of more women to positions of prominence, particularly religious women actually. What a lot of us would like to see is more lay women, non-religious women move up there as well. I mean it was very evident at the funeral of Pope Francis, it was very moving, powerful occasion, but nevertheless the optics were all these men and most of them were slightly older men and I think that the church can't go on forever like that but I don't think that women's ordination or

putting women in there in some form will be a priority at the moment. What reforms would you like like to see him address? Well I think the important things he has to do early on, there's the ongoing problems with Vatican finances and with the clerical sex abuse scandals and those are things he will need to address internally. As regards the Church and the world, which is a very important part of his papacy and the fact that he's a missionary friar, a mission person is one of the, I think, main reasons he was elected. He has to take the gospel to the world and he has to help to heal these divisions and like

Francis he will be outspoken, I believe, on war and peace migration and on the environment. He served for many years in Peru and in those parts of countries like that, the environmental global warming has huge impacts. So he will certainly see that. He will carry on the legacy of Lord Art O.C. that is very important, six of the clause that Pope Francis wrote. But then I think the other thing that does affect women directly is I think we might see movement at some point in his papacy. I'm sure we'll have a long papacy here, but at some point on married priests. And certainly there are countries in the Americas and in Africa where they are losing Catholics and the evangelical churches are making inroads and there's a shortage

of priests. And I think some of these countries are crying out for married priests. That emerged at the Amazon Synod that Pope Francis ran. And I think we might see movement on that from this pope at some point in the future. He's seen as someone, Kate, who could unite traditionalists and progressives in the church. And we are Women's House. We're talking about how the church impacts women's lives and the women, millions of women around the world

who follow Catholicism. We are gonna be talking about women's health with Naga Manchetti in a moment. So I want to know about what do you think his views might be or within the church, within the Catholic church about things that directly impact ordinary women's lives like views on abortion, contraceptive and birthrights that affect their health directly?

Yeah, I think we have to wait and see how he will embrace the role of Pope on these questions. I think he previously has really stayed away from some public interviews and the limelight and so many of his views are not widely known but I would say that he, from what we do know, he's sort of a doctrinal traditionalist in those regards and so I haven't seen much of his commentary on on those questions. But certainly we need a pope who will be a pastor to all people, including women.

We are more than half the church. And just before the white smoke appeared, my organization released pink smoke over the Vatican as both a sign of hope that one day the church will fully open its doors to women, but also as a distress signal that the church is in crisis because of the discrimination of women in the church. You. And so we're hoping. So pink smoke above the Vatican, that was a very disruptive, a stunt to pull. How did that go down? It was actually very beautiful and very, it was evocative and we had a lot of media watch,

the world's media was watching and we were hoping that the Cardinals also saw our smoke signals as we call out for equality. So it was a very joyful day and a day that we, you know, wanted to bring women's voices to the conclave. But you know, our message was, a woman's place is in the conclave. And so as these ordained men gather behind closed doors

to make this consequential decision about the future of the Church with no women present, we were there to call it a sin and a scandal. And, Rita, just like your thoughts on these, the issues that affect women's health. Well, on abortion, I think we won't see any change there. And in fact, even from the most progressive priests and bishops and cardinals they would likely take a very conservative view on abortion. But on contraception that's a more complex issue really on which maybe there will be movement. Somehow I doubt there'll be a kind of doctrinal change but we might see maybe the kind of changes that Pope Francis liked to introduce. So on the question, for example, of divorce and remarriage, which was very, is and was very contentious, where there's a ban on a divorced remarried person where the previous partner is still living,

receiving communion, an official ban, and Pope Francis did indicate leniency was possible in pastoral practice with this. And everyone ignores humana vitae, the 1968 encyclical in any case. So it might just kind of disappear by default, you know, in centuries time people might, you know, they might just, it might be centuries before anything formal is done. But I think we might see kind of past official pastoral leniency come in, in the way that it did for that other issue of remarried Catholics and Communion. I guess because a lot of these issues affect women differently depending on what country you live in and how secular or conservative those countries are.

Absolutely, and here in the West, it's very easy not to understand the concerns of people from other parts of the world. And I know that things like polygamy, things like the environment, and things like just violence, violence between different people, affect other parts of the world in a way that we don't fully grasp and can dominate the conversations in other parts of the world in a way that we don't fully grasp and kind of can dominate the conversations in other parts of the world. So because he has this experience in Peru as well as being from the US, he is almost uniquely placed really to maybe grasp the complexities of all these different countries of the world or many different countries and therefore I think we can expect a very compassionate and empathetic papacy and one I think is going to be just so

interesting the years ahead. He's a man who's clearly not afraid and yet he's rooted in humility, you know, a mendicant order. It's just so fascinating. And Kate, we know that he's expressed his views on migrants, the poor and the environment, and you are part of this activist group, Women's Ordination Conference. What reforms would you like to see happen? You know, we long prayed that Pope Francis would be transformed by the testimonies of women called to priesthood. And so I think a first step for this pope would be really to sit with them and hear their sincerely

discerned vocations and hopefully have an open heart. I think one of the unfinished pieces of Pope Francis's legacy is the Synod on Synodalities implementation. And so many of us are waiting for reports from study groups from those discussions. But throughout that synodal process, we heard from every corner of the globe the call for greater inclusion for women.

And so I hope that he continues to carry that forward very quickly. Of course, there's the study commissions on women deacons. I think that could be easily resolved quickly, but we'll have to wait and see. But I think Pope Francis left a lot on the table for women's inclusion, and I hope that our new pontiff

is able to pick those up quickly. Kate McAuley, thank you so much. Also Ruth Gledhill, thanks to you. I'm gonna go back and have a watch of the pink smoke being blown above the Vatican. Thank you both. 84844 is the text number. Now, writer and broadcaster Naga Munchetti

is usually found interviewing other people on BBC Breakfast or Five Live, but today I am absolutely delighted to say she joins me here on Woman's Hour. Four years ago, she spoke out on air about her own awful experience in getting a coil fitted and received a huge response from listeners, happy that she'd spoken out about such a personal and sensitive subject. It led to her talking about her experience with debilitating periods and eventual diagnosis with adenomyosis at 47. She's written about her experiences and that of other women and medical professionals in her book, It's Probably Nothing,

Critical Conversation on the Women's Health Crisis. And I'm delighted to say Naga is with me now. Morning. Hello, how are you? Very well. First of all, congratulations. Thank you. Why did you want to write this book?

I'm sick of women not being listened to. I'll give you a longer answer but I really am sick of it. In July 2024, there was a stat that more than 750,000 women were on NHS waiting lists for gynaecology services. Now that is an issue with the NHS and staffing and funding. Fine, we can't control that. But then if you look at any of the testimonies that I've found and put in this book, women are being dismissed, they're being left undiagnosed, they're left to doubt themselves and they're not able to live

their best lives. They are being crippled by illnesses that they're being told is probably nothing or that it's just part of a being a woman put up with it, which is what I was told. And that's why he called it is probably nothing, yeah, because what we that's what we all do, we just tell ourselves just don't worry about to get on with it I find that whenever I talk to people about their books There's always a journey within their own lives that has got to them them to that point and so I want to talk to you about when you

Decided to share your experience of having a coil fitted on five live on your program in 2021 That was the first time you spoke out about it. Why did you do that? I'd read this article by, or this piece by, Kathleen Moran, brilliant journal, brilliant, absolutely brilliant woman. And she had described her coalfitting. And you know what it's like Anita, we have morning meetings, don't we? The team gets together, we discuss ideas and I said, has anyone seen this? And then I started ranting about my experience, which was horrific. It involved me screaming to the point

that my partner was running around the doctor's surgery trying to find out where I was, passing out on the bed twice. I was in my gym gear, Anita, because I thought it would be fine and I could go to the gym after. I've been told to take a couple of paracetamol before. And during the procedure, and I will

say the Morena Coil is fantastic. It is a great piece of contraception. This is not against the Morena Coil and it's not against anyone in the NHS. But during that procedure I was told, are you sure you want to go through with this? And I said, we've got this far, we are finishing it. And it was also a contraceptive that I didn't really want. I felt I had no other choice because other things had been denied even though I didn't fit these tick boxes. So there were all these issues and I told my team in the morning meeting

and you know usually you get them saying back to you, oh yeah that's interesting, there was silence and I thought no I've gone too far, just saw them all the ins and outs of my contraception. You're talking about gynaecological issues in the morning meeting. Welcome to woman's hour. Yeah exactly, no and I've some Five Live we do that time of the month as well you know and I was persuaded in we're not the story, we are facilitators as journalists, we get people to tell their stories in the best way And so I was a very reluctant storyteller when it came to my own personal experience But I did and we made sure we did it so that it was educational And then we opened up the lines for people to get in touch and we were

Overwhelmed by the response by other women who'd been told it will be fine No, you're the problem if it's not if it's it's painful, no no you're the unusual one and they're not. So we got the guidelines changed when it came to pain relief. Tell us what happened? Well we screamed and shouted about it and then the guidelines were changed so that outpatient procedures you can be offered, you can also be offered significant pain relief and it bled out to other procedures as well. I remember getting a text from one of my friends saying, I've had this procedure and I've never been offered gas and air and I was and I feel absolutely brilliant and it was the best thing and I

know it was good for my health and I'm not traumatised by it. It's just one of those small things that when the change happens and this happens time and time again within women's health where you think, how on earth have we got this far and nobody thought to offer us gas and air for something that could be that painful? Because we're made for pain. We're made for pain. You've known a bit about pain your whole life, haven't you? Because you've experienced very painful, heavy periods. Yeah, and you know when you say, oh, I have painful, heavy periods? And you and I are

similar ages, and when we were younger you kind of everyone go Yeah, they're awful aren't they but you never went that step further and described what was happening and I will take some responsibility For being that person as well when I raised it with my doctor at various points in my life with doctors in various points of my life But my periods basically involved flooding various points in my life. But my periods basically involved flooding, which meant that I would also have to set an alarm through the night to change my period products. I'd sleep on a towel. I was in so much pain that I would sometimes sleep on the floor so that it would be painful that way so I wouldn't have to think about the other pain. I would pass out. I would vomit. I would have diarrhea and I would still be going to work. I would pass out, I would vomit, I would have diarrhea, and I would still be going to work.

I would pack, I would wear two pairs of knickers, and I would always pack a spare pair of tights. I'd never wear white on my bottom half. And you know, I am not uncommon. And just because it's not uncommon doesn't mean it's normal. But no one ever asked me or investigated why are they so heavy. I was told, you'll grow out of it.

What nonsense. It'll be better when you have a baby. So I've got to have a baby to stop being in pain. And then when it was finally diagnosed, and everyone says, oh, weren't you relieved? Well, yeah, I can put a name to it, but there's no cure. Because then you look into it and there's not enough research, not enough money put into research into women's reproductive

issues. And if you compare that to some of the male issues, erectile dysfunction for example, you see a stark difference. There was a piece just in the press this week and the more I went into this and I was offered a hysterectomy, the hysterectomy was not going to cure adenomyosis. It's the uterine lining growing outside the uterus. So it's in my pelvis. Explain what it is because you've got your diagnosis after suffering horrendously. I'm actually listening to you describe the pain and I can't quite believe that you still were able to function and do the job that you do and having to deal with all of that but I guess there are many women who can

relate. We just have to get on with it. You were 47 when you got your diagnosis. What did they tell you? What was it? Well, I went in because I was having extreme pain. I had a cyst on my ovary and I thought it was that. And I was having extreme pain. And then I had bled,

not spotting, but proper bleeding for something like 30 days 35 days and I had put off going to the doctor thinking oh, it's just a long period you know I'm that age I'm perimenopausal and then When I had a transvaginal ultrasound again Anita There are whole issues with how accurate ultrasound is and the ultrasound you're given and when you're giving them the timing etc It what they saw was there were stripes. So imagine you've got your pelvis and there were stripes in the muscle and those stripes

are where the muscles have been torn because the endometrium grows outside, the endometrium being the lining of the womb, grows outside, embeds itself in the muscle and then when your hormonal cycle happens, so you release estrogen, they flare and so they tear the muscle. So that all contributes to other pain as well and it contributes to heavy periods, but there's no cure. What, you were offered a hysterectomy? Yes. Which you refused? Yes.

What treatment? Go on, sorry. Well, I didn't want to go into early menopause and then I could have kept my ovaries, but actually because it's spread and if you keep your ovaries, you're still producing estrogen. We actually produce estrogen in our brain as well. And so I'd still get the flares, flare-ups, and the pain. So it wasn't going to help. But it was, again, it's another, like why is cutting a lump out of us the answer? What did you opt for? What treatment? I ended up having, I have hormonal treatment

to quell the bleeding, but basically I'm suppressing my hormones in my body to survive, to get on really. It's not life, it's not life limiting. It is life debilitating and it limits me. I cannot be the best I can be and I haven't been able to be. And I, look, don't get me wrong, I present two brilliant shows. I have a great job, I have a good life.

But the pain and the dismissal throughout my life, which made me feel I was less than other women who were cracking on and doing really well. Yeah, did I hear you talk or read that you talked about how women in your family were just able to get on with it and you thought there was something in you that just couldn't cope as well. It wasn't so much in my family but it was just looking at other women and thinking I'd been told it was normal.

So in my head all these women are bleeding a lot and are not sleeping well and are exhausted and throwing up and worried about fainting and they're all cracking on because I was told that was normal. Well isn't that just one of the other sort of tricks that's been pulled that by telling us that we should just be getting on with it we don't discuss it because everyone's looking at each other going oh well she's getting on with it so I just have to get on with it. And you don't want to be seen weak we know in society we don't want to be seen weak anyway let alone in the workplace or

amongst our friends especially when you're in your early 20s and 30s and trying to carve out a career. We discussed on the program yesterday about new research showing that the lack of women-only clinical trials, I mean that must be a huge part of the problem. Massive. I mean you know painkillers, painkillers are traditionally tested on men. I was talking about my book the other day and I brought up on stage this man who was like five'11", and I'm 5'4". And I said, the medical trials have been tested so that you can take a painkiller and it works. And yet when I take it, and there was an example of this with a drug in the United States where women were being given this drug

and passing out at the wheel, sleeping through, not being able to care for their children, falling asleep at work, losing their jobs because they were being given the wrong dosage, because we've just been assumed to be the adjunct to men. It's wild to think about, absolutely wild. It's infuriating. Yeah, it's infuriating. And the book is fascinating because you look at lots of different areas, including the history of women's health, including how the first anatomically correct images of the clitoris was only made, any guesses, no prizes, 1981. Yeah, it's not just the nub, it's huge and it's like up to eight to ten

centimeters, goes right inside the vulva and women can be, shall I tell you an awful fact I found out? Please. So for women to be treated, this is a long time ago, in the 16th century, or to find out if she was a witch, the men would stimulate a woman's clitoris and if she was aroused, she was a witch. If she wasn't aroused, she was a witch. It was deemed appropriate that they could do that to a woman just to tell if they thought she was telling the truth. Blood is boiling. Oh yes. This is more than just about reproductive health though.

This is about mental health, heart attacks as well. We know those issues. Also there's case studies, lots of case studies of other women's experiences. And men's. And men's experience. Testimonial injustice. When you talk about, really importantly, because we talk about it

women's hour all the time, the background, color of skin, and how that impacts whether a woman is believed in that. Social class, education, how you look. You know I spoke to one GP, one doctor whose mother was a GP, Asian, and even now her mother something like in her 70s, still dresses more smartly than she would, say, to go to the supermarket when she goes to see a GP, because she knows that if she didn't, she would be considered, I don't know, less educated, less capable, and wouldn't be heard as well. And that, when you speak to women through the generations or you speak to women across all walks of life, you know they have all felt they have to

work that bit harder to prove themselves and we know our own bodies. What are your tips? I mean we've got lots of messages coming in for you. I'm gonna read it. Let me read one out here. My coil strings got lost and it took 20 months to get an appointment to get it removed with forceps at the hospital by a male gynaecologist. I was not offered gas and air. Painful medical procedures for women. Can we ask for pain relief for mammograms yet?

The last one I had was so painful that it felt as though I was going to faint. Came out and cried hysterically on my own in the hospital stairwell. I'm so sorry to hear this. The whole thing was demeaning and I felt entirely disrespected. I'm going to put that to you, Naga. Can people ask for pain relief?

You can ask for pain relief. You can ask for pain relief. There was a chapter in here which I was really nervous about writing called the GP appointment because I thought this is going to sound really patronising. Everyone knows how to book a GP appointment. But this is more about what you say. You make a list, you write down your concerns, you prepare. If it is menstruation issues, you keep a diary, you track and you use language like the best thing, the best sentence I found is, this is negatively impacting the quality of my life. You cannot ignore that. I have had to take time off work, I am losing my job, I have been unable to care for my children.

One woman who had urinary incontinence, I am unable to take my child to school and the school is 200 metres down the road. You have to be specific. When it comes to pain relief, you say, I am concerned about this pain, I have had this experience and they must offer you help. They want to. This isn't about GPs not wanting to help, this has just got to be a better partnership so that you are listened to. Naka, I love how you are going to

just, even just this brief conversation we're having, let alone the book that you're writing, going to empower an army of women. I hope so. And those who love women. And those who love women, very important. It took you to 47 to get your diagnosis, yet you'd suffered with these horrendous periods your whole life. Knowing what you know now, if you could go back to that very first horrific period, how would you address it with your GP? What would you do differently?

I would have listed what it was doing. If you hear that a 15 year old girl who's doing her GCSEs has been up all night cramping, throwing up with diarrhoea, is petrified that something, you know, she's going to flood during an exam, during a three hour exam, I would have listed all those things because you cannot say to a 15 year old girl that is normal and that is the way you're going to live for the rest of your menstruating life. Good advice. And just health adjacent, you get up so early in the morning, 3.45am, and I know you keep yourself really fit and you manage to get your golf in and you're brilliant

at it. If anyone understands golf, handicap of 6.4. Thank you. How do you make time? How important is it for you to look after yourself physically? So important. It's for my mental health. I run a fair amount. I love it now that mornings are lighter. I'm sure you've discussed on Women's Hours, we have them five, about the restrictions we feel as runners getting out at night. I love it now that mornings are lighter so I can get a run in then or even in the evening. I'm doing something for me. That's why I love golf. Be selfish. Don't be afraid to be selfish and be kind to yourself because it's your body, it's your life. Be the best you. Naga, thank you so much for joining me this morning. Thanks Anita. It's out right now. Naga Panchetti, this new book. It's called It's Probably Nothing.

And you are getting in touch with your message. Elsie says, thank you Naga for talking about this. I'm so thankful I was given general anaesthetic to get the Mirena fitted. That might not be right for everybody, but it was for me. Luckily, my doctor did not trivialize my experience and wanted to avoid unnecessary pain. Thank you, Elsie, for your message. Keep them coming in, 84844.

Dear daughter, the lesson that I want you to take from this is simple. Choose yourself first. You cannot pour into others from an empty cup. Dear daughter is the podcast building a handbook to life for daughters everywhere. Our listeners share their life experiences. We've shared so many moments of laughter and tears. Words of wisdom. Never be afraid to take risks.

Education is your greatest weapon. And letters to their daughters. Dear daughter. Dear daughter. Dear daughter from the BBC World Service. Listen now wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Now on Bank Holiday Monday, our program was all about mistakes and among our guests was the psychologist Dr Julie Smith who joined Nuala to discuss why they can be so uncomfortable

and what we can learn from them. A mistake to one person can seem a really huge thing but there are also little mistakes that we are much more able to cope with and be resilient to and it often depends on how we frame that mistake in our mind. So some people will make a small mistake but the emotional consequence will be big often because of the relationship they have with failure. Do you think we learn from our mistakes? We can do. If we're able to separate the mistake from our self-worth or estimation of ourselves, then we're very much able to tap into learning from that and gaining the potential wisdom from it.

But if we're too sort of wrapped up in this idea of this means something about who I am and my worth and how other people will see me and whether other people will abandon me, then we're not in a place to learn. The growth mindset Dr. Julie, how can we get one? I think it can be sort of context specific. Certainly in my career going from being in the therapy room one-to-one with people doing what I knew I could do well to into this sort of very public arena, you know, live television and really that kind of thing. The only way I was able to really sort of do that was if I fully committed to myself that I would not kick myself while I was down.

So if I made a mistake or it didn't go well, that I would not talk to myself like a bully, I would talk to myself like a coach and I would look at, okay, that's a learning experience, we'll learn from that and then we'll get better for next time. And so whenever you go into a situation that's difficult or you might make a mistake, it's just having that sense of, you know, the approach to yourself and then the words will follow. Oh, that's profound. You know, when you're listening to the radio and you hear something and think, that's me. I think I talk to myself like a bully, not a coach. I'm going to listen back to that program. And if you want to listen back to it, it's on BBC Sounds. All you need to do is search for Woman's Hour from Monday the 5th

of May. Now, it's early summer which means wedding season is in full swing. Planning a wedding can be overwhelming with potentially massive sums of money at stake, not to mention the expectations of your friends and family resting on your shoulders. But what if, on the approach to the big day, you start to question your relationship? How do you know if it's just nerves? And what if you realise you're not actually happy, that your engagement needs to end and that you have to cancel your wedding? Well, beauty and lifestyle creator Katie Snooks cancelled her wedding in 2017. She joins me along with couples therapist Joanna Harrison, author of relationship help book, Five Arguments All Couples Need to Have and Why the Washing Up Matters. Joanna was also formerly a divorce lawyer and she works in private practice and at the law

firm Family Law in partnership. So is well placed to talk about this. Welcome both of you. Katie. Katie Hi. How long had you been engaged? We had been engaged I think around two years. So the wedding was properly planned and underway. I think we had most of our vendors booked. We had the invites, everyone knew the hen party was planned and... So what happened? Yeah. It's so funny because looking back I knew that I wasn't happy for a very long time but I really was in love and wanted that relationship to work so I stuck it out and kept trying and it just got to a point where I knew that I deserved better and I knew that the wedding wasn't going to fix anything and that I deserved more.

And yeah. How easy slash difficult was it to come to that decision? Yeah, it was hard. It was one of the most difficult things I've ever been through. Not only admitting to myself that the relationship wasn't going to work but also having to tell everyone else that ultimately what I felt at the time was I'd failed in my relationship and I was so embarrassed and ashamed and also really heartbroken to admit that but I Had to do what was best for me and I had to put myself first Did you discuss did you tell him first or did you talk to members of the family like and which way around was it?

so I guess our situation was a little bit unique in that and I Wasn't happy we were having a lot of trouble and Ultimately, I feel like he pushed me to make that decision. I feel like looking back he wasn't brave enough to kind of say also that he wasn't happy and it got to a point where it was one it was one tiny thing it was then and I mean this is going into a bit of detail about the relationship but I just asked him can you send me a text and let me know you're safe when you go out? Because I don't know if you are.

And he said he wasn't willing to do that. And yeah, that kind of told me all I needed to know. Yeah, I think so. Maybe he knew as well, like you're saying. What was it like telling everybody? What was the reaction like from family and friends? You know what? I thought people were going to be really sad but the people that were closest to me I think congratulated me and they were so supportive, there was no shame from them

and you know what? A couple of my friends actually said to me after the fact we're so glad you didn't go through with that. And at the time I was like, why did you not tell me this? Like I could really needed to have heard that. But I know that I needed to go through that and I knew that it needed to be my decision. And I knew that if anyone had said that to me, I would have been really upset. Joanna, I'm going to bring you in. You were nodding along whilst listening to Katie there.

What impact can planning a wedding have on a relationship? And how do you know you've just got, what's it, it's cold feet or if it's actually a mistake that's about to happen? Yeah, I mean, it's so personal, isn't it? I think there's so much going on. There's the kind of reality of getting married that could stir up a lot of feelings and anxieties. And then actually planning a wedding together, which might be the most sort of involved shared project you've ever done with each other, which you could really learn quite a lot about each other, you know, sort of how you communicate, how you how you share our work,

dealing with your own and each other's families, like all these sort of core things that can be difficult in a relationship. And, you know, it's funny, we talk so much about the outside things that need, that are going on when you're getting married, but we don't talk about these inside anxieties. I think it's really helpful we're talking about it today. You know, I think it's normal to feel anxious and concerned and to have feelings stirred up. Having said that, I think, Katie, I was nodding along because I think it's normal to feel anxious and concerned and to have feelings stirred up.

Having said that, I think, Katie, I was nodding along because I think what was so important about what you say is that you really were listening to yourself. There can be a lot of noise around that might put pressure on you to kind of silence those doubts. But I think my advice is if you're asking the question, is this cold feet or is there something serious here, then it really is important to listen to that and to bring that out, whether that's through talking with trusted friends or family or this is a moment in life where I think it's worth investing in professional support, you know, to maybe be able to air

those concerns, whether that's alone or in the relationship. What advice would you give someone on how to approach their family and friends and tell them that this is the decision they've made? Because that might be a huge pressure for some people. Yeah, a huge pressure, family pressure, you know, depending what marriage means in the family. You know, as you said, Katie, you found people to be really supportive to you and you hope that the people you're inviting to your wedding and around you are going to be supportive. Having said that, you know, people will have their reactions, all different kinds of reactions. I suppose my feeling is like that is their

reaction. It isn't your job with all that is going on to kind of look after that as well and manage their reaction. I think the really important thing is kind of looking after yourself, being kind to yourself at that point. You don't have to give the whole story to people either. It's not the same, but I work a lot with divorce and you know it's you don't have to go into all the details with everyone this is very personal it may be a shared decision if there can be a shared communication about it that is helpful I think but you know it's important that it's whatever feels right there isn't a right or wrong except you know what you feel comfortable with. Yes it's no one else's business. People always love the details because they want to talk about it to other people. People love the gossip.

They love the gossip. Can we talk about the, oh sorry yes Joanna. No I was just thinking you know it's such a big kind of community occasion people are going to talk, people are going to process it through the group but that is there you know it's important you are the one who's having the difficult time and Katie it sounds like you were really looked who's having a difficult time. And Katie, it sounds like you were really looked after. Yeah, I felt like I was just so lucky to have that support network around me that not only kind of held my hand through that heartbreak, but also like my mom who helped me like write emails to all the vendors to eventually cancel and who came with me to pick up my dress when it was ready. And also my family who took me away on the day. I think it's really important if you are canceling a wedding to have something to look forward to on that day

that was set and to take your mind off it and yeah to look forward to the future as well. I think it's so important if you're going through that, to know that how exciting that you have this all to look forward to with the right person when it eventually happens. I have to say you have just explained how lovely your family and friends are, that your mum helped you cancel things, all the practical stuff. How was that? How difficult was it having to cancel everything? Did you lose a lot of money?

We lost all the money. I didn't get anything back, which I kind of expected. I mean, it would have been helpful because also at the time we were living together and then had to like live with an ex was a whole different topic. But yeah, it was heartbreaking. But you know what? I actually found a lot of comfort in talking to some of our vendors that we'd booked because I realized that I wasn't the only one going through this and this wasn't the first time that they'd actually seen something like this happen. So it wasn't anything to be super embarrassed about. It happens and you made the decision. Joanna, as a couples therapist, you must come across couples who don't make the brave decision that Katie made and regret having got married.

Yeah, I work alongside divorce lawyers and used to be one and within my network, definitely there are stories of people who felt that things had gone too far, that it wasn't possible to go through with counselling and, you know, kind of maybe felt they took a risk. I suppose from hindsight perhaps they were saying that but that's really difficult isn't it and again you know support I think that the relationship might need support there. What advice would you give someone who might be listening and is feeling conflicted? Going back to what I said you know try and listen to that conflict, try and understand it, try and get some perspective on it. What is it that is making you feel so conflicted? And

you want a relationship. I think we have to have an expectation that a relationship is a place you want to be in a marriage where you can bring up concerns and anxieties. And if that doesn't feel like you so with the text message Katie that was a kind of message where you wanted your concern to be registered. It's not possible to kind of bring that up or you know maybe that's a sign you need help to learn how to do that a bit better or maybe as you felt Katie that you know it's a sign it's not going to be possible in this relationship. Ellen, Katie you met someone else. Yes. Dear listener, Katie did get married.

Yeah. What was the difference in their run up to that wedding? Oh it was a completely different experience you know I had no cold feet or bad vibes. I listened to my gut the whole way through. You see this is what going through that whole experience has taught me that my gut instinct is super powerful and I need to listen to it. And so it just meant even more going ahead with my husband now and planning our wedding was amazing. Like I knew what it was like then to be in a relationship where I felt supported and he had ideas for the wedding and I kind of didn't have that in the first time round. It was all me doing it all. That was yeah.

That was a red flag. Absolutely. Major. Thank you so much both of you for coming in. Katie Snooks and Joanna Harrison for talking to me. I'm going to read a couple of your messages out because there's lots coming through. I was on a plane to Bali at my honeymoon that I realized I'd made a mistake. Just awful to go through. My husband was a lovely man but I got carried away with the wedding plans and didn't think about if my partner was really for me.

Awful experience. And then another one here. My dad asked me if I really wanted to do this. Outside the door to the church, he knew something I didn't. It was the early 80s. I was in my first job and getting married was what you did next. A year later, we were divorced. Love from Liz on a boat in Yorkshire, happily unmarried

to my partner for 23 years. Thanks for that message Liz. 84844 is the text number, keep your thoughts coming in on anything you've heard on the programme today. Now you may recognise my next guest, Laura Aikman, who's been on our screens recently in the hit BBC crime drama This City Is Ours and famously surprised Gavin and Stacey fans and her own family on Christmas Day by returning as Smithy's fiancée Sonia for the grand finale watched by more than 19 million people. Well Laura's here today to talk about her latest role in Suspect, the shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes, a new four-part Disney Plus drama exploring the events surrounding the death of the 24-year-old Brazilian electrician. He was shot by police at Stockwell Tube station in 2005, having been mistaken for a terror suspect in the

aftermath of London's 7-7 bombings, which left 56 people dead and more than 700 injured. In Suspect, Laura plays Lana Vandenberg, a Canadian secretary at the Independent Police Complaints Commission, then known as the IPCC, who became a whistleblower after a briefing at work revealed a discrepancy between what the police knew and what was being reported in the press at the time. Here she is. This is a clip from the drama, debating whether to reveal what she knows to a TV news reporter. I keep waiting for the police to just come clean, to admit that all of the stuff

that they said about John Charles, the vaulting the barrier, the bulky clothing, isn't true. They won't be honest about what happened. That it was their failings that led to the death of an innocent man. I can't stop thinking about the family. No, no, you've got to let Neil tell this story. What the police are doing now is what they always do. They kick stuff like this into the long grass and hope that eventually everybody forgets

and stops caring. I can give you advice on how to cover your tracks. You download documents, print them off, so they can't trace it back to you. Everybody forgets and stops caring. I can give you advice on how to cover your tracks. You download documents, print them off so they can't trace it back to you. We don't see on screen or even use your name. Look, whatever you say, whatever reassurances you give me now, we all know that if I go public with this, I'm going to lose my job. Or maybe worse.

Laura joins me now. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you. Thanks for having me. I watched it. Laura joins me now. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you, thanks for having me. I watched it, it was gripping. And very powerful, and takes you back to a time in very recent history. You said on Instagram recently that you were proud to play Lana Vanderberg, calling her a brave, smart woman who spoke out

and told the truth at great cost to herself. Tell us more. Yeah, I mean, as you heard in the clip there, Lana was working at the IPCC and she was seeing the CCTV because they were looking into the police investigation, how the police acted, and seeing the difference between what was being reported in the media and what actually happened on the day, and that this man, Jean Charles, wasn't acting suspiciously. And, you know, she said the whole time, I was just thinking that could have been my daughter and she was waiting and waiting and you know quietly putting these things in her desk sort of collecting

evidence although she wouldn't describe it like that because she didn't have a plan with what to do with it and then eventually she sort of basically just couldn't bear it anymore and did whistleblow to ITN at great cost to herself like she says in that clip I say in that clip and You know she lost her job. She lost where she lived. She was arrested and they tried to charge her with Breaking the Secrets Act, but she never signed in her role and with theft And when she asked theft of what they said of the paper and the ink that she'd printed things out on at work

She's obviously a real person. Did you meet her? Did you speak to her? Before I started, I didn't have enough time basically to do that, but I had an hour and a half Zoom where Jeff Pope, our writer, had asked her everything and about everything that we see on camera. So I had this amazing kind of cheat sheet to how she felt which was invaluable and then before the program went out I managed to get her email address and I just made contact to see how she was feeling because you know this this is an event that really defined her life and it must feel very weird to have someone putting that on screen and so I just wanted to check in on her and she is she is happy with it which is great.

And what a responsibility for you. Yeah I think whenever you're playing a real person there's a gift to it because you can see the person you have all these answers that you wouldn't have with someone who's completely fabricated by a writer but at the same time especially if it's someone you really admire and I really think what she did was heroic, I wanted to really get all of those nuances across of how she felt and how nervous she was and how it wasn't a straightforward decision. I wanted to get all of that across in my performance and make clear that she she was very insistent that she wasn't doing something covert and she didn't do this for money or anything like that and hopefully that that comes across in the drama. It really does. There's been several documentaries made about the 77 bombings and the death of Jean-Charles de Menezes. What role do you think drama can play? I think it hits differently

watching a drama. I mean I have to say I've watched a lot of the documentaries and I've found them all incredibly moving. I think what I haven't seen as much of in the documentaries is this, how the media portrayed and the Met didn't correct the narrative on Jean Charles de Menezes. And there was so much talk of him jumping the barriers and wearing a bulky jacket and carrying a rucksack. I really don't think those wrongs have ever completely been put right and I think that is hopefully what this drama will do. I don't think we've seen Lana either in any of the documentaries and maybe we wouldn't even have this drama if Lana hadn't done what she did because she is the reason we

what why we do know so much of the truth. It connects the dots. Yeah it does. I'm just thinking of the drama around, the brilliant drama around the post office scandal and what that does for society. Yeah. We're able to sit and watch something collectively and drama does hit differently. It's documented. Not everybody watches documentaries.

Absolutely, yeah. And we do have a statement from the Met Police and they said, the shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes is a matter of very deep regret for the Metropolitan Police Service. Our thoughts remain with his family and we reiterate our apology to them. The circumstances around his death which came at a

time of unprecedented terrorist threat to London have been subject to numerous public inquiries including two separate reports by the Independent Police Complaints Commission. They say the recommendations made were implemented immediately and that no officer sets out on duty intent on ending a life. Our sole purpose is the complete opposite, the protection and preservation of life and we've taken extensive action to address the causes of this tragedy." What made you say yes to this gig? I think it's important to say just on the back of that statement from the Met that also this is from multiple points of view and it's not sort of pointing fingers at those

officers who did what they did on that day. I think you can feel the confusion and the tension that they're feeling on that day in the drama. Why did I say yes? I couldn't put the scripts down. I couldn't believe what I was reading. So much of it, I think for all of us, we had forgotten so many details and I remember so clearly the 7-7 bomb many details and I remember so clearly the 7-7 bombings, but then I didn't remember the second failed attempt and I certainly didn't know all of these facts. So that was compelling. And then Jeff Pope wrote it, who I'd worked with before and Paul Andrew Williams was directing it, who I'd worked with with Jeff on a show

called Archie and he's an incredible director, such a talent and someone I love working with so there was a million reasons why I said yes. No brainer. And we've got to talk about some of your other acting roles whilst we've got you on here. The City is ours. You've recently been on our screens. Brilliant BBC crime drama, looking completely different in a very blonde, very glamorous Rachel Duffy. Yeah. Done very well in terms of ratings. How was that experience? Amazing. Another sensational cast of actors and such an exciting show to be a part of.

It's so great when you get to be in a show that you would love to watch and I really feel like that about The City Is Ours and I feel like all of the cast, we're all so proud of it. We're all so desperate to go back. And yeah, there's just so many people that I really admire their work who were in the cast. So sitting around that table at the read through was like electric. Many of our listeners will have seen you in Gavin and Stacey in the finale, watched by 19 million people. That just doesn't happen anymore on Christmas Day. You made a shock

return as Smithy's fiance, Sonia. Not even your own family knew that you were going to be on it. I didn't tell anyone. It was just easier just to blanket. Then you have to remember who you've helped. How did you keep it a secret? Well, luckily in a way, it overlapped with filming This City Is Ours. So people weren't saying, oh, where are you going? They just thought I was still going to do This City Is Ours. So other than that, I mean... And this great footage of you actually filming the family's reaction.

My mum and dad, my mum lost her mind when she saw me on screen. They were like, what? We've been talking a lot about women's health on the program and I read something quite interesting about you and what happens to you when you stop working. Because you're an actor which means that you you know You go from job to job to job and and how do you manage to keep the balance? Yeah, and why is it important that you do it is it's very important that I do not so much anymore But and yeah, I have spoken a little bit about the fact that I have ulcerative colitis, which is an inflammatory bowel disease It's a bit like Crohn's if you've never heard of it. And before I got diagnosed interestingly, it was so

interesting listening to Naga talk, I had been in pain and bleeding for over a year and passed out several times and ended up in A&E and been sent home without being examined and told I had piles which I obviously didn't. And before I got the't and before I got the diagnosis eventually and I have to say my care has been amazing ever since I went to a homeopath to try and understand this pain I was in and she sort of marked out when I hadn't been working and when my now what I now know were flare-ups were really bad and she sort of said it's those two things match

up are you very stressed when you're not working. So you're stressed when you're not working? And yes it was really causing me, it was making me ill. So how do you find the balance now? What do you do when you're not working to ensure that you... Being an actor and being employed... Anita I'm always working now. No no no no no I'm absolutely often not working. But I think it was such a defining characteristic of who I was and if I felt like I had purpose and confidence if I was working and that all sort of would go away when I wasn't. And so I just had to really actively find other things that made me feel confident and gave me a sense of purpose. So I'm a volunteer

for Shout, which is a text crisis line service. I was at shelter for four years on Friday nights and I set myself goals in the gym. Like Naga was talking about her running and stuff. All of those things have become very important to me so that I don't sort of live or die on an audition, which is so unhealthy. That's good advice. Yeah and I think it applies to so many people whose jobs are a big part of who they are. It's really important that it's not the only thing that you are because you don't know what could take that away at any moment. Lovely thought to end on. Thank

you so much for joining me Laura and you can see Laura Eichmann play Lana Vandenberg in Suspect the shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes. It's available to watch on Disney Plus now. Thank you and thanks to all of you getting in touch. So many messages. I'm going to see how many I can read out in the last 20 seconds. Someone has been in touch to say my mum said at my wedding rehearsal that I didn't have to go through with it after my husband behaved appallingly. I didn't listen and went ahead. We're now divorced and on women's health I went through several years of endopain until I collapsed at work. A few more years of pain, taking strong painkillers, missing out on my children's lives. I took HRT for 13 years and I'm fine now.

I mean endometriosis is an awful pain and needs sympathetic treatment especially for women trying for babies. That's all for me. Do join us tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm David Dimbleby and from the History Podcast and BBC Radio 4, this is Invisible Hands, the story of the free market revolution. The free market isn't solving the problem of homelessness. Classic liberal values of free speech, free enterprise, free markets. A hidden force that changed Britain forever.

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