Woman's Hour - 10/04/2025

Episode Date: April 10, 2025

The programme that offers a female perspective on the world

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Reena Nainan and in this season of the hidden economics of remarkable women, we're following the US foreign aid news. There are lawsuits challenging these decisions, but one thing is certain. These cuts are having major repercussions throughout the world. Join us as we hear from those directly impacted on the ground and from experts about where to go from here. Follow the hidden economics of remarkable women wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, I'm Dashiani Navaniagam and welcome to Women's Hour on BBC Radio 4.

Hello and a very warm welcome to the programme this morning. Now in just a short while, the latest Doctor Who companion will time travel to the Women's Hour studio to give us the lowdown on the iconic new character. I'll be speaking to Virada Sethu on her new role and that momentous moment when she found out. And what's your opinion on child influencers? Are you amused when you see them on social media, perhaps unboxing new toys or outfits? Or does it fill you with some unease?

Maybe you take the view that it's the parents' choice and no one else's business. Well, the reason I'm asking is because new safeguarding guidelines, said to be the first of their kind, will be launched next month to help protect children from being exploited online. We'll be talking to the founder of the Child Influencer Project, who's produced the toolkit to help parents follow best practice when it comes to featuring their children on their social media content. And the humanitarian aid worker Sally Becker has spent more than 30 years going into some of the world's most dangerous war zones to rescue children from all sides of conflict. We'll be speaking to her about her incredible work ahead of her new memoir that's out today.

And I'd like to hear your views on taking back control of your diary and doing things for you. Michelle Obama was speaking about this on a podcast this week, denying the rumours about a possible divorce from Barack after not being seen with her husband at some high-profile events. Now she says, in fact, after the intensity of raising children and the White House, she's now taking control of her calendar and doing things she wants to do. Sounds good. So today we're asking, when was the moment you took back control of your life? Maybe it was after the kids left home, a change in your relationship, or stepping back from

work. That moment where you stopped living for everyone else's schedule and started reclaiming your own. We'd love to hear your stories. You can text the programme 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour. You can email us through our website of course or send a WhatsApp or voice note that number 03700 100444. As always just keep an eye out for

those data charges. Now joining the cast of Doctor Who is no small thing especially when you're stepping into the shoes of the Doctor's companion, a role with decades of history and devoted fans across generations. Actress Virada Sethu is the latest to carry on the legacy, starring alongside Shruti Ghatwa in the new series of Doctor Who. Virada was raised in the North East with roots in classical Indian dance and has a background in science, so her journey to this moment is anything but ordinary and I'm delighted to say that she joins me now in the Women's Hour studio to talk about what it means to play a companion, why this particular role feels more personal than anything

you've done before and how this all came together, how the stars aligned, if you like. See what I did there? Yeah, very good. Welcome, Farada. Very good to have you here. Thank you so much for having me. Look, before we get into all of this, just take us back to that moment when you got that call, when you found out that they wanted you to play the new companion, Belinda Chandra. I mean, it's exactly as you said, the stars, it felt like they really did align. I had been in the previous season in an episode called Boom, and I had the most incredible time.

It was such a joy working with Judy and Millie and the whole team, and I felt really a sense of belonging there. And then I went and did my own thing. As an actor, when you step into these, you get used to saying, you get used to getting attached to jobs and people and then moving on. And yeah, I went traveling that summer

and came back to the strikes. It was quite a barren landscape for the industry generally. So you didn't know that you would have any work? Absolutely. There was one job that I was up for and I'd pinned all my hopes on it and it fell through and you know it was it was a bit of a low point actually to come back and be like oh you know I was away and splashed a lot of money on this trip. And yeah, and then I lost the job that I had pinned,

you put all your eggs in one basket sometimes, and then wasn't expecting any phone calls, especially not for Doctor Who, because I didn't realize there was a history of actors that get to come back as a companion who maybe played a previous role, a role in a previous episode. So you must have made a lasting impression, a good lasting impression. Yeah, I think, yeah, Roswell, I'm really, I'm really so grateful that people saw that potential in me. I think the character I played in the previous episode, Mundy Flynn,

was someone who stood up to the Doctor and they really wanted someone who could hold their own up against a character as dynamic as the Doctor, and especially someone as powerful a performer as Nsuti. So yeah, so I think they saw elements of that. They were in the edit room sorting out, they were editing boom, and they asked if I wanted to come in as the companion to a more permanent basis.

Oh my gosh, so who was the first person you told after this? My sister. Your sister. Yeah. And what did she say? She was over the moon. I mean, I think everyone kind of, I think everyone had more of an inkling than I did

that it was gonna be a given. I think for me, I saw it very much as an audition. It was, you know, this is a process. I can't get my hopes up about this. So yeah, it was so much. But in the audition, I say audition in inverted commas, Russell was, you know, he was telling you a lot about the storyline, wasn't he? Yeah, he told me the whole thing, the whole season. There were no spoilers. Sorry, there were all spoilers and there was no holding back.

And was that when the penny dropped? Hey, yeah, a lot of inside Intel now. Exactly. It was like this is this there's no way you would give all of this away and and it not be meaningful. Yeah, it meant a lot. Well, it's an action packed role, as you would expect. So here is a clip from the first episode in a bit of a dicey situation, I should say. Melinda, what's going on? Do you know Lucy at number seven? Tell her the cat's gone to live on a farm. Apparently, I'm the queen of outer space.

If you could tell the police, my mum and dad, my mum and dad. Tell them robots are kidnapping me. Tell them I love them. I'll take care, Belinda. Bye-bye. Transmatch initiated. They're here! I'm saving you! Okay, well look, we won't say what happens next, and I'm terrible for giving away spoilers in the first episode,

so I'm going to stay stum. But let's talk about Belinda, because she is such a fresh, dynamic character. And you said that she's the closest character to yourself that you've ever played. In what ways? I think, well, I was given the script. It was such a quick turnaround. I was given the script a couple of weeks before I was on set.

So, you know, you get the basics of what the character is in terms of her job, in terms of the things that she says. But I had to fill in all the gaps with her mannerisms and how she reacts to certain things, things that aren't written in the script. I mean, in some ways, she is a lot braver, in many ways, she's a lot braver than me and is a lot more capable than me. I think if I were kidnapped by robots, I would have a mental breakdown.

But she is so witty and quick. And I kind of based a lot of her characteristics on her job, actually, the fact that she's a nurse. She's an A&E nurse as well. So she has to be, she has to be able to get, she can read people very well, very quickly. She has to go, she has to meet people with compassion. And you know, she has to meet people with compassion. And you know, she, there's people that turn up in A&E in all sorts of states of distress. And you know, she can hold up a boundary,

but still meet them with compassion. And- That's tricky, isn't it? Hold up a boundary, but meet people with compassion. Yeah, and she does a lot of that with the doctor. She holds them accountable for all the sort of tricky situations that he inevitably gets her in. So, but I think in you know, in terms of me, a lot of the more vulnerable parts of her come from me. So, you know, she's thrown into this world that she's got no clue. She's panicked.

That was all me as well because I was also thrown into the universe. she's panicked. That was all me as well because I was also thrown into the universe. Well, it's interesting you used that word vulnerable because you said it's the most vulnerable you've been on screen. I mean, did you feel exposed, I guess, in a way? Yeah, yeah, massively. I was winging it, the whole, so much of it for the first episode, especially, I was winging it. And it felt, you felt you know as an actor when you're able to structure a character and you've got this like firm foundation that you can always go back to, you can always lean back on if you're having an off day you can always lean back on well I've got this belief system or I've got you know this background that I've developed for this character

belief system or I've got you know this background that I've developed for this character I just didn't have the time for that so I had to rely on my own kind of value system and and way of thinking and behaving and it means that yeah it's very exposing. Well look you know your own is, because you've got quite a fascinating background because your own background is in science and dance. You know, how did that shape the way you moved through this role, especially one as physical and as imaginative as, you know, the companion? Yeah, so I grew up doing Bhadnathya Manmohiniyattam, which are two forms of classical Indian dancing. And they are, classical Indian dancing generally is a form of storytelling.

It's very expressive, isn't it? Exactly, exactly. And it's very physical. And the one dancer has to embody so many different characters, the male characters, female characters, humans, animals, all of them. And I think there's a fluidity that I've kind of absorbed in terms of how to physically express myself. And there's a confidence that I have in using my body to express things, whether I'm saying it or, you know,

because obviously when you're dancing, it's non-verbal. You're relying completely on your body. And I think it's also just being a performer, being on stage. I was quite comfortable with it from a young age. My mom danced, I grew up watching my mom dance and my dad sing on stage. So performance was very much in my blood.

It's just, you know, they're both doctors. They were doing it as a hobby. I wanted that though. I loved that feeling of being able to story tell. Well, you've also spoken about how meaningful, I guess, it is to represent your heritage authentically on screen. Yeah. And I wondered, you know, how did that come about? Were you having conversations with the team? Yeah, there was a whole flashback sequence actually in the first ep that hasn't quite

made that it's on the cutting room floor as often things end up. But it was I found it really touching that, you know, there was a real interest. And there were so many conversations about how to honor her, well, my heritage. And there was this whole plot about, we have something called Ajadagam, which is kind of like a prophecy. It's like an astrological report that's written about you and predictions. Is this when you're born? Huh? Is this when you're born?

Yeah, when you're born. Yes, I think similar. I had one done about myself. Yeah, exactly. And there's a naming ceremony and there was so much detail. There was so much interest and detail that went into that that I found so touching. So yeah, there's a couple of other sprinkled references to My Heritage as well, which was lovely. Well, look, I want to ask you, because there is a huge amount of excitement about the growing

diversity in Doctor Who. And how do you personally navigate that visibility and the responsibility that comes with that? I think I'm a couple of years older than you. And growing up, I definitely didn't see characters that looked like myself in these sorts of roles. Do you feel that weight on you? If weight is even the right word to use? Yeah I think I do. I feel, I've been acting for like 10 years but I still feel quite new to this. I feel new to having this many eyeballs on me. And there is a pressure that comes with that.

And I think I spoke about it before, I think I said it feels like I can't fail because I don't want to become the cautionary tale. And I think minority groups tend to carry that pressure sometimes that we, you know, we can't afford to fail because it reflects badly on all of us. I try not to follow that thought process because I think when I do that, I try and fit myself into boxes that aren't helpful, that aren't authentic. And I think I'm here, I am where I am because I've been able to lean into my own authenticity as much as possible. The harder I lean, the more success I find. And I think that also inspires other people to be more authentic, other young, you know, people of color, I hope on screen that actually reflect our society,

because our society is very diverse. I'm here for it. I mean, you're completely right. And to a certain extent, I wondered, do you even get tired of being asked the question about seeing yourself reflected? Because you know, I mean, I am completely aware that that is exactly what I asked you, and I'm interested in the answer. But you know, do you get a sense of weariness? And I know you just nodded immediately when I said that. Yeah, it's, I don't know, it's, I can't say I'm tired of it because I think it, sadly, we live in a world where it does have to be addressed. I'd love for it to be, I'd love

for there to come a day when it's not something we talk about. I'd love for it to be, I'd love for that to come a day when it's not something we talk about. I'd love for it to be, isn't it great that you're here? But, you know, whether it's because I'm a woman, whether it's because I'm a woman of color, there's always gonna be something I think that we need to push for. There's been certain narratives that have had a lot of airtime and I think we can,

I think it's richness generally and diversity generally, even in a scientific sense, is always better for a population. And I mean, you know, I mean, there'll be a huge amount of excitement and celebration at seeing someone like you on screen. But as you kind of sort of intimated a bit, you know, there will also be criticism and abuse from people who aren't necessarily happy with that. And I know, you know, in the past, Fima Agerman said, you know, she wasn't actually prepared for the huge amount of racist news that came her way when she played the doctor's first black companion. Have you received that? And how do you deal with that negativity? I actually haven't seen any, and I'm so pleased. I don't know if it's just the algorithm or something, but I've generally

speaking I've been welcomed and that's been lovely. But I think what I try to do is whether it is good or bad, I try to keep it as a separate entity from me. It's somebody else's opinion and you know it's easier said than done but I have to have my own sense of belief and my own sense of self and self-worth because I don't want to get, I don't want to float away with someone saying great things but I also don't want to get hung up on someone. Everything anyone says to you is a reflection of what's going on in their world. And that's not what's going on in my world.

So I have to protect my peace. Very well said. And look, I want to ask you another thing, because this idea of self-confidence and knowing yourself, you know, you mentioned both your parents were doctors, and you originally went off to university to study to become a vet. This is a massive pivot. How did you do it and how did you take that leap? So I had done a gap year before I went to uni and I landed a role in a film and it meant that I got a taste for the potential of another way of living. It was like falling in love and then to have to be married off to someone else, it's like,

I can't do that. I absolutely can't. My true love is acting. It's my calling. And it's, I can't, there's no other way to express it. There was no other way I wanted to live other than to pursue that. It felt so aligned with me. It was scary. It was terrifying. But yeah, I had to ask for that. Oh, well, we're so glad that you did. And look, Farada, thank you so much for joining us in the Women's Hour studio. And I should say that the new season officially launches this Saturday on BBC iPlayer at 8 a.m. and the first episode will go out later that day on BBC One and of course viewers outside the UK will also be able to watch it on Disney Plus. That's Doctor Who. Now are you amused by videos online of cute five-year-olds looking at different outfits or maybe

unboxing a new toy? Well some of the growing number of funny posts featuring used by videos online of cute 5 year olds looking at different outfits or maybe unboxing a new toy. Well, some of the growing number of funny posts featuring youngsters on social media involve brands and advertisers, but there's concern about how so-called child influencers are protected and it's been highlighted in a recent Netflix docu-series, Bad Influence, the dark Side of Kid Fluencing. Well, one academic and founder of the Child Influencer Project believes being put in front of a camera in this way can lead to not just potential exploitation, but difficulties for children later on in life. Dr Frances Rees from the University of Essex has produced new safeguarding guidelines,

which are being launched next month. Now she says they are the first of their kind and an attempt to bridge the gap in the UK and Irish law which doesn't protect children who appear on social media content. Dr Frances Rees says it's a toolkit for parents and I asked her what she means by child influences. It's where it escalates into almost a form of digital child labour and the kind of comparisons that I make within the work are those for child models or child actors where as you know within standard media would have very heavy protections and lots of safeguarding

on set or on photo shoots. There'd be a lot of compliance and advertisers and brands would have to make sure that the child had a performance licence and was safeguarded on set etc. Whereas none of that exists within this industry where children are providing content, it's being streamed online on the parents channels and or under the child's own name as a channel but there is none of that legal protection there for them. You know when you say children are being used for content, branded content, what sort of examples would we be seeing them in? That's everything from, you know, major brand retailers, you know,

selling trainers and t-shirts or experiences like trips to restaurants or theme parks with children at the focus of it. Right up to even, you know, local councils have used family influencers in road safety campaigns and things like that. So it's a sliding scale of small mom and pop businesses where, you know, small independent brands might set up something that has children at its focus,

kids' pajamas, leotards, et cetera, right up to national brands then who are selling children, child-related experiences under products and they will contract with the parents in relation to the content itself. And when it comes to producing this content, are the parents themselves doing the producing? You know, would the parents be filming it, directing it? Yes, so the work that I look at is mostly younger end but predominantly what we're talking about is under 13s. As I say, my own work kind of focuses even younger again. So really thinking about the parent as author of this content because the child under 13 is not

allowed to have an account under their own name. So we're seeing situations where parents are posting on the child's behalf and that content is streamed from the viewpoint of how the parent wants to present the child effectively. So I guess it begs the question though of why do we need these guidelines because as you said before you know if kids come on set, there's strong legal protections around how they're used, what perks they get, what breaks they get. But if this is happening within a home environment, as in, you know, the parents are the ones dictating everything, surely that comes under their own parental responsibility. Why the need to have a set of guidelines? Absolutely. So that's the kind of sticking point here in terms of any type of parental sharing, even is escalating to this level,

would come under the mandate of parental authority. So it's very hard to regulate. I know France have introduced some sharenting and also child influence legislation. That really relies on a lot of honesty and self-regulation, self-reporting on behalf of the parents. So it's a very difficult thing to try and tackle using policy. So one of the things that I'm doing through the work that I conduct is having those conversations with parents and practitioners, you know, discussing this with brands because as you say, in the standard industry, they would have to have compliance with these performance certificates, they'd have the child on set, it would be costly, they'd have to pay a fair wage, or you know chaperones and safeguarding and risk assessments would be conducted, the impact on their education

would be understood and they'd have the right to the money. So none of that exists in this industry and so it's about what would good policy look like, how would you make something that's enforceable, but also talking to parents and practitioners in this area saying, you know, you do have a duty of care towards children and standard industries, why can't we map that across? But I guess my question is, why do you feel we need these guidelines? Is it because you feel that parents are exploiting their children, maybe in some cases unknowingly, or that they themselves are just inherently unaware of the risks that come with this?

I know in conversations with a lot of parents who are working in this arena, they simply aren't aware and it takes some kind of real-life moments for them to take a beat and realise some of the ramifications of the actions. It's not necessarily using words like exploitation or using, it's parents who have pride in their children and their appearances. And you know, as a woman, even from that trajectory from pregnancy onwards, you feel very isolated, you're trying to make sense of it, you're reaching out to a wider community and that can escalate into content that focuses on child rearing, education, peer support, you know, so

there's parents who start out down this route not with branding or exploitation in mind, it's sharing stories and having conversations with others from a point of isolation. Where brands are then involved, the brands have a power advantage over parents. Parents are sometimes just glad of a bit of extra money or a free pair of trainers or something that's of use for them in their day-to-day lives. So as I say, for me it's brands and advertising agencies that we really need to be having this conversation with in terms of the practices that they don't have to put in place in relation to this content rather than kind of pointing fingers at parents and blaming them. So that's what I see in terms

of why people are doing it and avoiding those judgmental situations around why parents are doing it and educating them. So what did the guidelines say then? It's an evidenced six key risk categories. So those would be education, finance, health and safety, family, identity and dignity. And then within those six categories, we break down 20 specific risks. So things like, you know, the impact on the education and attendance, the rights to the money if there is any, risk assessment of any activities that might be dangerous, etc. So looking then specifically at these

risks. I am producing a toolkit where I use six fictitious children. So I've had an artist create some beautiful illustrations of six types of children's content and I explore what the content might look like and then map it against these 20 risks. And what are the risks though? What are you trying to safeguard against? So it is though, it's not just thinking about the right to the money and the impact on the education as it would be for standard modelling or acting work. You know, again, thinking about those professions, you'd have people on set who are there to direct the content, make sure the child has breaks,

make sure that the child has mental health support if they need it, make sure that they're happy, understand, you know, certain strategies to help them if they're struggling with understanding the direction. All of this influencer content creation is falling on parents. So it really elevates their responsibility. They're becoming directors, editors, account managers,

health and safety officers. So the work that I'm doing is trying to recognise that it is work, not minimize it and say that they're just unboxing or they're just dancing or they're just messing around, that this is actually labor. So when you say, you know, it's not just unboxing, it's not just messing around, it's... Can you describe what exactly are we seeing visually and how you know how how has that come about how long has that taken? When you see a 30-second reel for example where a child will be

holding a cup and drinking from it and saying they love what's in it and they're really enjoying the experience what will probably have happened there is that a brand will have given props, have told the parent that the child should hold the cup a certain way, that the brand image should appear front and centre when the cup's being held, that the child should be able to say the brand name and say how much they're enjoying it, that the child should look natural and happy and that it's yummy and that the post will have to appear at a certain time and the child should be wearing certain things. Now any parent knows that if you're trying to get a child to go somewhere, look clean and tidy as say what you hope they will say and not you know drop you in anything,

that it's very complex relationship to try and navigate so you get these clear brand directives as to what the brand wants you to be able to achieve for them that you're trying to then ask of a three or four year old camera. And how long would this take? Are we talking hours, days? Yeah some of these 30 second reels can take up to three days start to finish in terms of the propping, the prompting, the rehearsal, the retaking etc. So it can take a long time to get that content right. You've been speaking to families as part of your research into this. What are some of the reasons they gave you for posting these videos in the first place?

So there are a number of reasons why parents are posting. It can be that, you know, even from pregnancy trying to make sense of your own journey. You might be isolated from friends, your family structure changes, your relationship changes, your body changes, your workplace, you know, everything around you is going through change and you're trying to make sense of that journey as a woman. And, you know And I spoke to parents who reached out online, especially because of the impact of COVID, where they had no choice, reaching out to these communities of peers

and sharing stories. And some of those can be quite sensitive stories, especially if parents are sharing stories around same gender journeys or children with special educational needs. So they're sharing quite intimate data about the child as well through some of these journeys but it's seemingly, you know, they're not doing this to put the child in a position, they're just trying to make sense of parenting for themselves.

Is this for branded content then? It can escalate to that. So then for example if you are two mums together and there's a brand that identifies with that and they have a captive audience, they'll approach those content creators because they will see that they have that type of an audience. So it can generate its own following and then it will generate its own brand identity naturally. Then we have parents who think that they're doing this in the best interests of their future child. So like hashtag future pro. Sports clubs might even convince them they've got the next Tiger Woods on their hands

and they will feel like promoting the child's sporting or dancing or singing journey is part of getting a brand identity early. And then the final category that I meet quite regularly are parents who are already famous or already have influence themselves and they're now becoming parents. So they'll set up a separate account and identity for the children so that they can provide different content through that account and focus more on their parenting style there. At the heart of your safeguarding toolkit is the safety of the child paramount. What are the risks you're trying to protect them from? What are you worried that this is exposing

them to or is doing to them? Well we've had some pretty extreme cases come up in the press, mostly American cases and mostly they veered into some form of child abuse. And those are well documented and a new documentary came out on Netflix yesterday even. So, you know, ultimately this can escalate into a situation where parents and children are at war about a cash flow into the home where parents might have even given up their own profession or income in reliance upon this content and the management of their children's career becomes everything. I'm talking to young adults now who are saying that they've had to change

their name because they don't want their first date or their new employer Googling them because of something that went viral when they were seven. And that's what I think we need to remember is even with the ability to have this stuff taken down, it stays with you as a legacy. So it's having those conversations with parents about those, you know, not the scary person in the playground who might snatch your child, but real conversations about the legacy of this for the current and future self of the child. So what role do the brands and the advertisers and the companies play in this? Why not direct these guidelines to them? So at the moment the only person who could I guess enforce that would

be some change in policy or the law because currently there isn't anything in place to make them behave in that way. So similarly to the platforms, they can say by contracting with the parent, they don't, you know, they abrogate legal responsibility in that way to the well-being of the child. So from a brand's and an agency's point of view, and a platform point of view, they are contracting with the parent as end user. So that pushes total responsibility onto the parent for this activity and any of the fallout from it. So in terms of who could make that happen or make that change, other than brands that I'm working with who are addressing this from a reputational risk issue and a

brand integrity issue, nobody is compelling them to behave in this way. So that for me I think think, would take a policy change from, you know, lawmakers to enforce that. And we should say at the moment that, you know, you are publishing these guidelines, but they haven't been endorsed or taken up by anyone at the moment. No, so the digital toolkit comes out in May, and I have got support from a range of bodies, both it comes out in May and I have got support from a range of bodies both children's charities and bodies in advertising and working with brands and influencers to place it in various sites so that parents and practitioners

would have access to it so that anybody engaged in in this industry where they're working with children would have a place to go to find out what risks might be involved in certain types of content. Well, we did speak to the trade body, the Incorporated Society of British Advertisers, which says it does support your work and that brands are spending more on influence and marketing than ever before. They say that they have a code of conduct setting out how brands have a duty of care to the talent they work with and how children should be protected from harm and that they also encourage advertisers to sign up to this code. So they do seem to think that it is all in hand. I have been fantastically supportive of the work and I've presented to them and you know the same with the conscious advertising network there are guidelines in place around how people ideally would behave, but in terms of mandates

and policies that have to be complied with, there currently is no legislation. That was Dr Frances Rees from the University of Essex. I'm Reena Nainan and in this season of the hidden economics of remarkable women, we're following the U.S. foreign aid news. There are lawsuits challenging these decisions, but one thing is certain. These cuts are having major repercussions throughout the world. Join us as we hear from those directly impacted on the ground and from experts about where to go from here. Follow the hidden economics of remarkable women

wherever you get your podcasts. Now, lots of you are messaging in on the moment you took back control of your life. Jackie from Tamworth says, I finished work aged 50. I had hit the wall, I had raised children early, worked many jobs, studied, volunteered and been a wife.

I then started to discover myself. I learned to draw and paint and sew and knit socks. I took my time. I made a mess. I soon discovered that I was living my best life and it has held me in good stead when I needed respite from caring. When my husband took Pauley with cancer twice, he's fully recovered now. He's learning to live with the new creative me and it's meant life has changed for us both.

And Susan says, I reclaimed my life when I was made redundant after the pandemic. I'd had a job which required long hours, but after the COVID pandemic, I worked evenings which gave me all my mornings free. I found it strange at first having so much time to myself, but now I'm happy to be selfish in inverted commas and use my mornings doing exactly what I want. I look upon it as pre-retirement. You know what, Susan, I also developed a really good morning routine during COVID and it's also held me in very good stead. So I really relate to that. And Neve in London says, I

took control of my diary 10 weeks ago when I stepped away from full-time working life in my 57th year it has been truly liberating to do the things I love best with the people that mean the most to me including being able to listen to Women's Hour. Well we love that thank you Niamh. But now I want to turn to a very disturbing case in Scotland and just a warning that this story features details which some listeners might find upsetting. The ex-partner of a millionaire horse racing tipster who abused women and filmed it has warned someone could die if he's not stopped. Kevin Booth was given a worldwide travel ban after a Scottish civil court heard that he attacked his victims in

an underground chamber at his remote Highland home and in foreign hotel rooms. Tammy Connor, who said she was beaten by Booth for four years from the age of 16, has now decided to speak out in the hope that other women will come forward. Booth has described Tammy's allegations as laughable and said he has never been arrested, charged or convicted of domestic violence or abuse. Well, BBC Scotland news reporter Katie Hunter joins me now from Glasgow. Katie, hello. Hello. Katie, just tell us a bit more about Kevin Booth.

Well, Kevin Booth lives in a huge lodge in a tiny community in a place called Altner Breck in a remote part of the Highlands. And to try and paint a picture, Loch Do Lodge is up a very long dirt track, it's miles and miles away from the nearest public road and it is really remote. Now Booth is a former teacher and he founded a horse racing tipping company in Yorkshire and he moved to the Highlands around 2004 and he would go on to hire domestic workers from overseas. And in 2019 police found more than 300 videos of him appearing to violently beat women both in the UK and in hotel rooms abroad. And a criminal case against him was dropped in 2021. But in February a civil court

found he trafficked women and assaulted them by giving them so-called punishment beatings for what the sheriff described as minor or imagined infringements. And the civil judgment says that Kevin Booth, and I'm quoting here, on numerous occasions over many years at Locktwo Lodge and elsewhere, violently whips women and girls, causing them obvious extreme pain and distress. In doing so, the defender uses his hands and a variety of implements such as canes, wooden brushes, riding crops and belts. There are also descriptions of some of the videos recovered by police. One describes how a woman is handcuffed to a metal contraption in the tomb area of Loch Drew Lodge and is beaten and the description of this video

is that and I quote it appears to be nothing other than torture. Now the sheriff in this civil case gave Booth an international travel ban and also placed conditions on his ability to hire women as workers. Now you've spoken to his ex-partner. What has she been saying? Yeah, Tammy Connor is Booth's sex partner of almost 20 years. And she says in 1997, when she was 16, she got a job at his company in West Yorkshire. Booth was in his 30s.

And she says she was one of a number of young women working for him at that time. Her job would include office work. Part of it would be advertising his company at various horse racing meets. And Tammy and Booth started a relationship and she told me that she was subjected to these so-called punishment beatings. He'd suddenly try and kiss you or something or say you did this and I want you to do it to me and if you said no he'd say you had a punishment and then he'd give you a punishment With me, he gave me three envelopes and he told me to pick one So I picked one and my punishment was for not kissing him or something

It was 20 lashes with a cane And he did this in the office in Keithley He had a sofa bed, he pulled it down He put a video recorder on his desk and he filmed him hitting me and every time he did I had to say please sir and thank you sir and if I didn't say please or thank you he'd start again. He keeps getting away with it but one of these days is really going to hurt someone. Now Tammy says that Booth would get her to sign pieces of paper saying that she consented and he would pay her extra money. She says

the beating stopped when she was around 20 after the birth of their second child. Now Tammy never reported Booth to the police but in 2016 she was convicted of a breach of the peace against Booth. The courts admonished her and released her without further punishment and they split up and she says she's speaking out now and hope other women will hear what she says happened to her and come forward. And you've also spoken to a second woman. Yes, this woman worked as a maid for Booth at Lockdew Lodge in the Highlands in 2018. We're calling her Marta, that isn't her real name. She says Booth offered to pay her extra money in exchange for sexual acts and she signed a contract agreeing that she could be punished if she did anything wrong, but she wasn't planning on doing

anything wrong. And she says that one day Booth was angry about her cooking and her words were spoken by a BBC producer. He wanted basically to punish me for no reason. So the first he'd done a smack really hard with his bare hand and he took like, I can't remember, like wooden brush here and he was smacking as well really hard. Two or three days I couldn't barely sit on my back and my butt was hurting. Now Marta did report Booth to the police in 2019 but Scottish prosecutors dropped the case in 2021. The Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service said this week it reserved the right to prosecute

in the future and said it's working closely with Police Scotland. Police Scotland said time is no barrier to justice and urged anyone with concerns or information about Kevin Booth to come forward. And what has the response been from Kevin Booth? Well, Kevin Booth told us that he had been the victim of domestic abuse at the hands of Tammy Connor and that she had exercised coercive and controlling behaviour by restricting his activities. Booth said there had been no complaints, arrests, charges or convictions against him for domestic violence. He said Marta's allegations were not correct and that he had evidence to that effect. And Booth said when the actual evidence was put before the Crown Office, they said they were not going to prosecute.

He also said that the civil court judgment that we talked about earlier was still subject to an appeal and as a result he could not comment on it at this stage. Okay well thank you Katie and like I said if you have been affected by anything you heard in that story then you can find links to support on the BBC Action Line. Now Sally Becker's memoir, where Angel's fear to tread, takes us inside the world of humanitarian aid in conflict zones, where she's risked her life helping children and families in some of the world's most dangerous places like Bosnia, Iraq, Ukraine and Gaza. For more than 30 years, Sally has been on the front line, delivering life-saving aid and getting wounded children to safety. And

in her deeply personal account, she reflects on some of the high-stakes missions that will forever stick with her. I should say, Sally's work has led her to being voted Woman of the Year, carrying an Olympic flag at the 2012 Games in London and being nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize. Sally joins us for her first broadcast interview about her new memoir, a very warm welcome to Women's Hour Sally. Thank you. Now you've spent over 30 years traveling and and helping people and children especially in war zones but initially you were leading a very different life in England as an artist. What was it that first compelled you to start helping in such a direct way?

I was working on a painting and there was a news report, I think it was on Sky or CNN or something, and I could see this report from Bosnia. A woman was trying to cross the road with her little boy, and there were snipers operating around the area. And she just couldn't cross. It was too dangerous. There were some bodies lying on the ground. And she suddenly spotted a TV crew, came over, looked straight into the camera, and said,

why is no one helping us? And I felt like she was talking to me. And you, from that moment, you started your journey as a volunteer with a Croatian organization, I believe, called Sun Cockret. Sun Cockret, yeah. Yeah, which means sunflower. That's right.

Basically, I couldn't get a job with any of the major organisations. They said that I had no medical experience, I wasn't an engineer. So I managed to volunteer for this organisation that wanted an art therapist to help children with art therapy and I set off on a convoy carrying aid to the region and I expected to be there two or three weeks and instead I ended up well 32 years later I'm still doing it. Well in your memoir you talk about your work in in Bosnia, in Kosovo, in Iraq, most recently in Ukraine and Gaza, it's been a long journey and a long time. And when you look back at your work in all of these war zones, you know, what are some of the moments that particularly stand out to you?

I think probably the very first mission when I was approached I was actually working in West Mostar and I was driving a little Renault for delivering aid to the hospital there and the east side of the city was under siege 60,000 people were trapped nobody could go in or out it had been that way for about three months and one day I was in my hotel on the outskirts of the city and a man came to see me from UN Civil Affairs, United Nations Civil Affairs. He said, you're the only international aid worker allowed to travel freely. Could you possibly use your influence to get permission for us to bring a child out because we're planning

a convoy it'll be the first. So I said look the Brigadier lives just down the hall and he waited I went down the hall spoke to Brigadier Ivan Bagarich who was head of the military health authorities and I told him about this child. He said, Sally, we've got nothing against the children. You can bring out all the wounded and their mothers. So I looked at him and I said, me? No, this is the UN. And he banged the table and he said, we don't trust the UN. They're biased. They only care about the Bosnian Muslims. I'm giving you the permission."

So I went back, explained this to Leo Sorensen, the UN guy, and he said, no, no, no, that won't be possible. Three days later, they had a convoy lined up in Medjugorje waiting to go. All the major aid organizations were there, Red Cross, UNICEF, everyone was represented. There were about 50 ODA trucks carrying aid and the UN Protection Force in their armored vehicles. And myself and a colleague, we walked up and down asking if it would be possible to come with because we had this written permission stamped by the local general to bring out

the injured children and they all said no. Some said it's not our policy. Some said we only operate in Sarajevo for evacuations. Anyway, I had to watch as they left knowing that I had this permission and there was nothing I could do. That night we were watching TV and the convoy was trapped. The Bosnians didn't want them to leave because they knew that the ceasefire would end the moment that they left and once again they would have snipers, they would have shelling and they sat down. The women and children in front of the vehicles refused to let them go. And the next morning I received a phone call from Leo, everything's been organised, you

can now come in. So I told Ivan, he arranged to lend me an ambulance, an old Bedford ambulance that had been donated to the hospital. And I set off across the front line and I was actually shot at on the way in. I didn't know what to do because I'd never been shot at before. I didn't know whether to jump out, hide, run. And I put my foot down, put my head down beneath the wheel and trundled along and I made it to the city.

When I arrived there was this convoy stuck behind a yellow truck. And he said, oh, Sally, it's great. I knew you'd come. And I was so angry. I said, I've been shot out all the way in. Anyway, I was taken to the hospital to see the children. And I saw amongst these kids was one little girl called Selma. She snuck outside with her brother a few days earlier because they'd been stuck for three months,

no sunshine, had to stay indoors. She was 10, her brother was seven, and they crept outside and a rocket-propelled grenade landed, severely wounding them. And they were rushed to hospital and there was only enough anaesthetic for one child and Selma insisted her brother had it because she felt it was her fault. So she had her operation without anaesthetic? She had her arm removed without anaesthetic. And I met this little girl, sat on the bed and the nurse was telling me this story and obviously I must have looked so upset and this child said to me don't worry it's fine and she was 10 years she was 10 and I

said I'm going to take you out of here somewhere safe somewhere quiet and the doctors will make you well again and her mother cried to me and said, she was so beautiful, my Selma, look at her. And I said, the doctors will make her beautiful again. But I didn't really believe it was possible. She was covered in shrapnel wounds and half her hair was missing. Anyway, I managed to leave with them. We were blocked to some point because the UN were trying to, as Jeremy Bowen put it, come out on my coattails. They thought that we could use the children. And the Bosnian army said, no, you're here to help the children. It's an independent mission. Don't bring politics into this. Anyway, I was able to leave with those kids,

and Selma, 17 years later, she contacted me. I didn't know, but they'd been taken to the United States. And she wrote, Hi Sally, it's Selma, and I couldn't believe it that this little girl was now grown up. And she invited myself and my daughter, Billy then was 10 to come to her wedding and As she walked down the aisle She was wearing an ivory satin gown and she just looked Incredible and it touched me so much and it's children like that, you know that make me keep going

I suppose well, I mean that that's that's wonderful story, to be able to see her getting married, you know, all these years on. I wanted to ask you, because you said that it's children like her that keep you going, and it's a real cliché, I think, to say in situations like this, you see the worst of humanity, but you also see the best of humanity. But is that enough to keep you going? Because you will have seen conflict now from country to country, from generation to generation. How do you stop the cynicism from setting in about what humans can be like, that we constantly fight with each other and we kill each other. To be honest I can't believe it's still going on 32 years later and each war is

very similar. The children are the most affected women and children and once upon a time we used to send out our armies to some far-flung field where they would battle between them. And now they hit these areas that are built up. They come to us, as it were. Every war, it's the women and children who suffer most. And each time I've seen children maimed, they've lost limbs, children are killed, women with babies. It's always terrible and every war is as bad as the last. And it doesn't get better if anything gets worse because now we have more high-powered weapons. But knowing I can do something about it makes it possible for me to continue because even if I only managed to save one child, I've done something

good that day. And your memoir is dedicated to your daughter, Billy. What was it like going into these war zones and helping wounded children when you were a mother yourself? It did change the way I operated because I'd been doing it alone for some time and then suddenly there was this baby who was dependent on me and it became much more difficult. But I would basically think twice about an area that I was trying to reach.

Instead of going maybe straight across the front line as I might have before, I would take the longer route, the longer, safer route. I mean, I always tried to take the safest route when I brought children out. And we were never targeted bringing children out. It was always going in because I used to try and get permission from both sides.

So by the time I was coming out, both sides would know. And yeah, it was difficult having a child. There's also times when it crossed over where motherhood and working as an aid worker would cross over. I should say that we did approach the UN for a response but we haven't had one yet. Thank you so much Sally for joining us today. Nula will be back in the Womens Hour studio tomorrow. That's all for today's Womens Hour. Join us again next time.

I'm Ophelia Byrne and from BBC Radio Ulster and BBC Radio 4. This is today's Woman's Hour, cover-up and death. From New York to Northern Ireland and countless UK factories in between, few towns are left untouched by the legacy of asbestos. Newly discovered documents reveal who knew what and when, and perhaps explain why workers at that curious factory opening had to sign oaths of secrecy. Assume nothing, kill or dust. Listen first on BBC Sounds. I'm Reena Nainan, and in this season of The Hidden Economics of Remarkable Women,

we're following the US foreign aid news. There are lawsuits challenging these decisions, but one thing is certain. These cuts are having major repercussions throughout the world. Join us as we hear from those directly impacted on the ground and from experts about where to go from here. Follow the hidden economics of Remarkable Women wherever you get your podcasts.