Woman's Hour - 10/10/2025

Episode Date: October 10, 2025

Women's voices and women's lives - topical conversations to inform, challenge and inspire.

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It's your Woman's Hour Guide to Life. Join us only on BBC Sounds, but now back to today's Woman's Hour. Good morning and welcome. Some very inspiring, focused and determined women on the program today. B.B. Jackson, a world paraathletics champion, will be sharing her story. The youngest female billionaire, 30-year-old Lucy Goh will explain what it takes to be her. We'll hear the latest from the Giselle Pelico case after one of the convicted rapists appealed and got a longer sentence, and the Ilse Schwepker Prize for women's travel writing.

I'll be speaking to her daughter Barbara and travel writer Viv Goscrop and asking, is travel writing a dying art, especially now we can see so much travel in online content. Also this morning, we, all of us, are going to get a bit dreamy. I'm giving you permission, not that you need it, to think about holidays. I pretty much do it all the time anyway. I want to know where in the world you've been in the world. inspired to travel to, and what made you want to go there? Was it a book? An article in a magazine, a simple photo, overhearing a conversation, a scene in a movie. I'm still yet to make it to

Montaulk to see Snow on the Beach, the film being Eternal Sunshine of a Spotless Mind. And I did once book a holiday to Morocco based on overhearing someone saying, and then the donkey collects your suitcase. It was amazing. I'll tell you about that on my socials. But how about you? Did you watch Don't Look Now? And book a trip to Venice. although it's more likely to be the talented Mr. Ripley for Venice. Did you visit Casablanca after seeing the film? Did you read Captain Corelli's mandolin and book of flight to Cephalonia? Where have you been? What inspired you to go?

And how was the experience? And did you have your Shirley Valentine moment? Whatever you would like to share with me this morning, get in touch in the usual way. The text number is 84844. You can email me by going to our website. WhatsApp, the program. It's 037-100-444.

And if you'd like to follow us on social media, it's at BBC. Woman's Hour, 84844. That's the text number. But first, a court in southern France has increased the jail term of the only man who challenged his conviction for raping Giselle Pelico. Giselle was drugged by her then-husband, Dominique, for over a decade, and raped by dozens of men he recruited on the internet. The details are distressing. Of the 51 men convicted of abusing Giselle, Hussamettin Dogan, who was convicted of aggravated rape of Giselle Pelico last December December, was the only one who appealed against his verdict. Well, I'm joined now by Angelique Chrysafis, Paris correspondent for the Guardian,

who was in court in Neim in France to update us on the latest in this story. Angelique, good morning. Tell us what happened yesterday. So yesterday, after several quite difficult days in court, where video evidence was shown. In something happened which wasn't really a surprise to the many supporters of Giselle Pelico who gathered to applaud outside,

which was Pousa Metindoghan, who's 44, a married father, who had stopped work as a builder to look after his son with Down syndrome, had been convicted last year of driving an hour from his village to Giselle Pelico's house, going into her bedroom, where he knew that she was sedated and raping her.

He contested this and went to appeal, but in court, he didn't say anything new. He didn't bring anything new. He just continued to insist, to insist. Well, this isn't rape because her husband invited me over. He invited me over to her house, and he said it was okay. Probably very unsurprisingly to anyone in that courtroom or anyone watching the world over, a jury, because for the first time this was the first time this case had been put before a jury rather than professional judges, came back and said, not only are you 100% guilty,

but we're going to follow the state prosecutor's recommendation to increase your sentence because the state prosecutor had said, this man absolutely refuses to take responsibility for what he's done. Therefore, this sentence goes up. By how much? It went up from nine-year sentence to a ten-year sentence. What were his grounds for appeal in the first place?

Well, that's a question that some of us are still asking. It's obviously it's his right to appeal, but often in an appeal you may decide to bring in new arguments, bring in new evidence, and this absolutely wasn't what happened in court. We saw a man repeating really the debate we had seen about what is rape, what is rape culture in court by simply sitting there and saying, no, this wasn't rape, this is a sex scene. I didn't rape because a husband said it was okay. And in fact, he went even further and said, do you know what, I'm a victim as well. I feel violated because this court evidence is showing me in court with no clothes on, to which point, Giselle Palico herself said to him, you know, this is absurd. The only victim in this court is me.

What was the atmosphere feel like in court? It was very tense. It was different in some sentences because there is a small amount of progress happening, a bit of an awareness of how badly rape victims and rape survivors can be treated in legal proceedings. And certainly last year, she said she felt absolutely humiliated by the defence. This year, the case was slightly different, but it seemed that the state prosecutor was exasperated that you could have a man faced with clear video evidence in contravertible evidence that this was rape and simply sitting back and saying, no, I never intended to do anything wrong.

It's my right to do this. Was there any difference between this court proceeding and the original trial in Avignon? Well, obviously, the original trial in Avignon was very long with 51 men in total on trial. In this appeals trial, you could say we had more time to hear the arguments. But it was similar in many ways. There were many, many supporters of Giselle Pelicoe outside the court. There were banners saying, thank you, Giselle. Every time she left the courtroom, there were massive cheers and rounds of applause.

there were choir singing songs in her support. So that idea of her being a symbol for all survivors was the same. And what do we know about the man? Sorry, what do we know about this man? Yeah. Well, he's 44. His life was really sort of gone through with a fine tooth comb in court. In Turkey, he came to France age five, where his father worked as a concierge. When he was a child, their house was actually burnt in a fire,

and they were moved to emergency accommodation on a housing estate. And he said that was very difficult for him. He smoked cannabis from age 10. He had served time in prison in his 20s for drug dealing and had spent time homeless. But he married in 2007. He spent time at home to look after his son with Down syndrome. But he also had, as many of these men, a double life. He didn't tell him he had extra marital sex.

He would pay for sex, we heard, once a year on his birthday, and would send explicit photos and receive explicit photos on his phone. And we know also, of course, that where did he meet Dominique Pellico, which is a Pellico's husband who orchestrated the rapes of his wife? Yeah. He made the chat room, which was called Without Her Knowledge. And Dominique Pellico himself told, said, you know, he would tell all men on the phone,

I'm looking for someone to rape my wife after I've drugged her without her knowledge. I mean, the details, just so distressing and shocking of this case. Is it significant that Giselle Pelico was back in court for this? It is significant. Her lawyer said, you know, she didn't want to be there. I want to be dragged back into court for this. But she would be there because something is very important for her, which she repeated in court, which was she said, look, for me, the harm has been done.

I have to rebuild my life from the ruins of this. But she said, I want to say today to all other victims, I've never regretted my decisions. I've never regretted bringing a legal complaint and arriving in court and waiving my anonymity. And she said, I want to say to victims that they shouldn't be ashamed that, you know, what happens to them

is never, ever their fault. What message does this send to the other men and to wider French society? I think one of the key messages is this long discussion that's happened in this case is what is rape. It seems like a basic question, but it's been a very difficult one to answer

sometimes in some of the defence arguments. So Giselle Pellico herself said in the last trial a year, ago. She said, look, a rapist is not someone who's stalking a car park late at night necessarily. A rapist can be in the family. It can be your husband. And this is what has changed in French society discussion of drug-assisted rape, people being drugged maybe within their own families. So one of the things Giselle Pellico spoke about this week was she said, look, I didn't know this was happening. Dominique Pellico was putting a medication into her mashed potato, into her

ice cream into a drink in the evening. She said I had no recollection of going under, but I was having these kind of awful moments of memory lapses. I couldn't remember going to bed the night before. I was waking up in my pyjamas. It's normal. I couldn't remember what I'd eaten, what I'd seen on TV. I was sounding a bit odd on the phone to people. At one point, she didn't know that she'd actually been to the hairdressers until she woke up the next morning with a new cut and colour. No recollection of it. And the point was she said that if any other woman who wakes up one morning not sure what's happened the night before with suspicions now thinks of Giselle Pelico and takes action to get tested and to question the idea of being

drug. She said then that will have been progress. Yeah, so powerful. What message does this case send to the other men who've been convicted? Well, the other men who've been convicted, there were 51 men in total. 17 of them thought about appealing and eventually they dropped out realizing it was, it was ridiculous with video evidence that the court was shown, 14 pieces of video evidence showing Chiselle Pellicoeco clearly unconscious. The message this sends is a rape is a rape and Giselle Pellico's lawyer Antoine Camus said it sends a message that consent has to be got directly from a person, not by proxy, not from a husband. Angelique Chrysafis, thank you so much for joining me this morning. That's Angélique,

Chris have his Paris correspondent for The Guardian. And if you've been affected by any of the issues raised, you can find links for support on the BBC Action Line website. And you can hear French philosopher Manon Garcia's reflections on watching the Pelico trial. Again, tomorrow on Weekend Woman's Hour. She did a fascinating interview with Lut Nula earlier this week. 844-4-844, the text number. Now, in June this year, Lucy Go, a 30-year-old American-Tunel

tech entrepreneur became the youngest self-made billionaire, according to the global media company Forbes. Her wealth stems from a 5% stake in scale AI, a company she co-founded in 2016 and left in 2018. Since then, she's set up her own venture capital fund, which has invested in more than 100 startups, and passes a platform designed to assist content creators in monetising their work. Now with a reported net worth of almost $1.3 billion, Lucy has overtaken Taylor Swift to land at number 26 on Forbes's annual America's richest self-made women list. Well, I spoke to Lucy from her home in Los Angeles,

as she had just returned from a workout at Barry's boot camp. And what do you ask a billionaire? Well, I asked her how she'd made all that money and how much boils down to look. I think for me, I got lucky earlier than others, but I think that if you work extremely hard, you will eventually get lucky. I have friends who were trying to create a company for a decade, right? And they just never gave up.

They slept on couches. They drank suiolent, et cetera. Idea after idea after idea, it didn't work. And eventually, something worked. I think that to meet the right people, like if you go to the most popular coffee shop with all the VCs and you're just working on your laptop, eventually a VC is going to overhear conversation and ask out of curiosity. You might meet your next co-founder. I think I am in general a luckier person than another. but I don't think that negates my hard work.

I think innovation generally comes from having a problem yourself and wanting to solve that problem for us with building scale. We were actually working on an entirely different app called Ava. So let's go back to the beginning and we'll discuss kind of the businesses that you've set up and how you've got to where you are. But what were you like when you were a kid? Yeah, so I grew up in the East Bay.

My parents were immigrants from China. They're incredibly intelligent. My dad got his PhD in electrical engineering and my mom got her master's. She was actually on track for a PhD, but then she had me. So she decided to take care of the kids had a more traditional family role.

This is me as an adult too. I find things very boring. Like I get bored very easily. And I remember in kindergarten, I was just incredibly bored. Like I am pretty sure I went to the principal's office because I said something along the lines of like, why are we learning this?

This is like so stupid. Like this is a joke, right? I'm like, we're learning how to like spell the alphabet. But like this point I was like, you know, I was learning to read. You already knew how to read by the time you'd got it. Yeah, I was learning math. Credit to your parents.

Yeah, credit to my parents. Like, you know, they were like, threw me into advocacy lessons. Like, you know, they taught me multiplication, division, et cetera, very early on. But I just felt school was very boring. I think, like, my immigrant parents really valued money in education. And those were things that I learned to value very early on. I mean, even today, like, I bought them first class flights to visit me for my birthday. And they got very upset about that because they're like, hey, like, I don't care how much money you have.

Like, this is a waste of. money. But I basically became like obsessed as a little kid else. Like, how do I make as much money as possible? So I was like selling like, um, Pokemon cards, et cetera on the playground. And eventually I discovered PayPal and I realized like there was a whole online marketplace where people were, you know, were like selling neopets, neo-points, et cetera. And I figured out how to make money via that. And I started making websites and generating money through like ads. So many ways to make money like growing up. Making money was always important. Yes. And I think it was like, and my parents were always emphasize, like, education matters, so you need to go to good college to make money. Like,

at the end of the day, it was all about making money. Growing up, I just really valued it. And I was very entrepreneurial because my parents wanted me to, which is, you know, become a doctor, lawyer, engineer. But here I am. Okay, as an Indian, Lucy, hard relate. I can hard relate to so much. Not from the self-made billionaire bit, the Asian parents, definitely. And also, it's really funny that your parents didn't want you to spend the money buying them the first class tickets. But how do you feel being able to do that for them? I mean, it feels really nice. I think that Asian culture is also supporting your parents when you grow up as a thank you for them raising you.

And my parents especially, right? Like they immigrated from China to America with like no friends, no family members, et cetera. Like they took their risk to give their kids a better future. And they did give us a better future. So I'm excited to be able to like return that favor. Yeah, sure. You went to university. You went to Carnegie Mellon in Pittsburgh not to study medicine.

and you majoring in computer science and human computer interaction, but you dropped out. Yes. So I was just going to hackathons every single time they came up, like every few weeks. Sorry to interrupt. What's a hackathon? You'll have to explain. Oh, so they're like 24 to 48 hour coding competitions where you basically make an app or something,

really, and then you present it and you win prizes. And I'm competitive. I love prizes. So, and I love free things. I'm competitive and I love free things. So they were like my heaven on earth. So I go to these hackathons, and I felt like I was learning more at these. hackathons and I was in school because school is very theoretical. But like I said earlier,

I was very like product-minded growing up. Like I made like figured out ways to make money through like Twitter bots. Like I built websites, et cetera. And it brought me back to like those days where I was like learning how to build iOS apps. Except this time at hackathons, a lot of startups come to, you know, recruit. And I started really diving into the startup world. I was having more fun. I was learning a lot more. And when I got the opportunity to drop out for the TEAL fellowship, like, it was a no-brainer because I believed that I was learning more outside of college than I was in college. And I didn't view it as that much of a risk because, like, what was the worst-case scenario? Like, I would take a job offer or go back to college. So I really

do believe that you're the average of, like, the people that you hang around with most. And it was also an opportunity to be around, like, extremely intelligent, hungry, smart people, like, young people. But you dropped out because you got this Teal Fellowship, which was set up by the co-creator of PayPal and it was centred for young entrepreneurs. And I suppose maybe it's kind of, kind of there's something quite cool about being the smart kid who decides to drop out in that world, in the tech world. I mean, Mark Zuckerberg made it cool, right? So you worked at both social media companies, Facebook and Snapchat, and at Snapchat, you were the first female product designer. How often are you the only woman in the room? I would say pretty often. I think that

Snap was really one of the first times. I was really the only woman in the room. But it was like Evan's just inspirational. He really taught me how to think larger. Like I remember when I joined Snap, I thought it was an amazing social media company. I love the product, which is why I believed in it.

But I think joining Snap, I saw how he was thinking about like, how is Snapchat going to compete with Amazon, on how is Snapchat going to compete with Google, things that people don't think about. And, you know, like, even nowadays, he's really thinking, like, how am I going to build the next computer? I mean, I think he's really taught me to think about product

and be more open-minded about, like, how you can expand your company, which is really important when you're thinking, like, how do I build, like, a decad corn or a centicorn? And so, as someone who's often the only woman in the room, how do you feel about expanding your workforce and your environment? I'm actually very conscious about this. this because once you basically like only hire like let's say you or have a design team or like

you have an edge team right and you hire all men like difficulty of recruiting women compounds because no woman is going to want to look at like a 50 person engineering all male team and be like I want to work there. I think the only way you can fix that problem is the higher female leadership and then like hope that that female leader is going to be able to like encourage and recruit younger women. So this is something I think about consciously. I would say like you know, at my current company, the majority of leadership are women. Once you have like all men, it becomes impossible and you don't want that in a company. Well, and what's the difference?

I think there's diversity of thought, which is incredibly important. I do think, especially in the consumer, creator economy, women are more empathetic and we're able to like relate to the customer more. And as a creator economy, consumer company, you really have to be customers first. Okay, so tell me about your latest company passes. Yeah, so we're building infrastructure. structure to help creators monetize their brand. This is through really several ways at the moment, whether it's like through shopping

experiences, live streaming, one-on-one call, subscription, et cetera. We're constantly building features to help creators be able to monetize. The end goal is that we want to help create these unicorn creators. We're really working on like the 360 of a creator's business. So, you know, health insurance, finance, like investments. I started the program by telling everyone. that you are the youngest earthmaid billionaire woman. Does achieving so much so young change you?

I don't really think so. I think that some people do change where you see them start spending their money to drive ego, but it doesn't fulfill them, right? Like they're not happy. And I think a good example of this, sorry men, but like I see this most often with, I think, young male founders in their like 20s and 30s

where they have a liquidity event and then they just decide to party their asses off and, like, cook up with as many women as possible. And that drives their ego, but, like, that's empty, right? I think that there's, like, the other path where, you know, they just choose to continue, like, finding fulfilling experiences in their life. So, for example, travel might be fulfilling and that allows them to, like, be even happier. And that's what, like, money can buy. I think money can buy experiences that fulfill you, but don't do something that's, like, empty, right? Do something you're passionate. Like, pour that money into something you're passionate about.

for me my life is very much the same like I woke up early for berries before I still wake up early for berries I'm still at work into office like several hours a day Although, Lucy, I did read an article about you loving to party as well. Your party sound amazing. Is it true that you hired a Lima from the zoo? That was actually an LP dinner. So I was organizing Miami Hack Week because I wanted to bring hackathons to Miami over COVID. And then I was also hosting an LP dinner for my venture fund. And then my address got leaked to all the like participants at the hackathon.

So the lemur was actually for the LPs. So it was like a chill dinner of like, you know, 20 people. And then when my address got leaked, it was. just like 200, 300 people showed up at my doorstep. And I'm such a chill person that I was like, I have no furniture. Come on in, guys. And then, you know, it turned into a party, I guess. Sounds great. We should have been there. How do you make true friends? Is that an issue for you now? It's interesting. Like, I think that a lot of my friends are extremely successful on their own rights. Like, I've never felt used, right? Like, if anything, like my male friends are such gentlemen,

they pay for everything they do everything it's great actually um i'm like oh they they pay for everything do you think that's because you're you know you are wealthier than everyone that you probably i'm actually not wealthier than a lot of my friends like a lot of my friends are significantly wealthier than me the circles kind of change as well as you make money because like you know you're able to afford going to certain things or you just get invited to certain things for free like one thing i realize when you have money is that like everything is free there's a lot of conversation around what's happening in America right now and the politics and tech bros

and the influence that they have. I just wonder as someone who's in that field who's super successful, who's a woman, who is very young, very influential and very smart. Like, what is your take on everything that's going on right now? I mean, I think that overall, everyone has just a goal of driving innovation.

I think that in America, we see things too much as black and white and we really do need to realize like there is a gray ground. and I think I'm someone to just sees like both sides very clearly. And that's apparently unacceptable in America. Like you're always like, oh my God, pick a side. And I'm like, but this is unreasonable because of X, Y, and Z.

And this is unreasonable because of X, Y, and Z. So, I mean, like each side has its like benefits and its cons. But as long as like we aren't hurting people and we're driving innovation, great. For those budding women entrepreneurs out there, what's your top tip? Like, for example, if you're trying to start a company, I think that people subconsciously believe men are going to be more successful. And you can actually see a subconscious thought in the data, right? Because female founded companies actually do better than male founded companies. And I think the reason why is because subconsciously there's a higher bar to invest in female founders.

But once you, like, hit a certain point in your resume where it beats our subconscious, right? like if you're like the VP of engineering of open AI, everyone's going to want to fund you and you're going to be the hottest ticket in town. You're going to be more popular than all the other male founders with that same resume. I love your attitude. And, you know, there's so much to take from what you've just said. But you've said, you know, female founders are successful companies, but so few female led companies get investment in the first place, right?

Yep. So there's a whole system to fight. It's a whole system to fight. But I think that crying about the system and having like a more victim and just isn't going to do you good. The best thing you can do is suck it up, be successful and then reinvest. Suck it up and be successful. That's the advice from Lucy Go, who's the youngest self-made female billionaire. And what she did also tell me, because I asked her what she'd done by 11 o'clock in the morning, which was when we recorded that interview, 11 a.m. her time.

She'd done lots of meetings, as you would expect, and lots of Zoom calls. And not just one Barry's boot camp class, but two. So what are the rest of us up to is the question. Now, we've been speaking recently about our new series of conversations, The Woman's Hour Guide to Life. Two episodes are out already, only on BBC sounds. It's been fantastic to hear that lots of you've been listening, so please keep sending your comments in. The latest episode is all about ambition without burnout, how to chase your goals while protecting your well-being. Here's one of the many practical tips in it, and this is from Helen Tupper from Squiggly Careers. There's a little clever language hack that you can do here, because

if you say I can't, very often a highly assertive persuasive person can convince you that you can. You might say, well, I can't come to the meeting and they'll say, well, you know, I'll make it shorter and you probably can. Whereas the I don't is a lot harder for somebody else to disagree with and it means that you are more likely to identify with that. Like I don't do that. I don't go to meetings after five on a Wednesday because I go and put my kids up. And then it's hard, but if you feel like your willpower is weakening or somebody is challenging you and challenging you, I think some careful use of the I don't,

when you might have been saying I can't, could be a good one thing. I've just written down in front of me, I don't. Note to solve. To hear more go to BBC Sounds, search for Women's Hour, and in the feed you'll find the guide to life episodes. Scroll down a little and you'll find it. Our next episode is all about aging and making it our superpower. We love to hear from you about your thoughts

on the psychological juggle of ageing. You can email us through our website or message us on Instagram at BBC Woman's Hour. And I might point you in the direction of listening back to Melinda French Gates who talked about discovering herself and becoming who she is at 60. That is a fascinating listen.

A new season of Love Me is here. Real stories of real, complicated relationships. It's not even like a gender. I mean, it's wrapped up in gender, but it's just a... It's just a really deep self-hate. I think I cried almost every day. I just stole myself on the floor.

He's coming on really straight. It's like he's trying to date you all of the sudden. Yeah, and I do look like my mother. Love me. Available now wherever you get your podcasts. Now, B.B. Jackson has just got back from the World Parathletics Championships in Delhi, where she won a bronze for the 100. meter sprint. Beebe was born with congenital talipes equinovirus, widely known as clubfoot. And when

she's not competing for Britain, she's working night shifts, caring for children with complex disabilities. She trains between shifts only a few and only on a few hours sleep. Well, Bibi, you are incredible. And now we're going to find out just how incredible you are. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you. Could you relate to that? I can't and I don't, clip? Absolutely. Yeah. I feel like you're a can. person um sometimes my brain tells me i can't it depends on what day what day it is how i'm feeling so well let's talk about the day you got bronze congratulations how did it feel first of all to compete in your first ever world championships yeah it's definitely it was definitely crazy like

it was like like i don't know like it was yeah it was just just crazy i didn't actually believe that i won bronze to start with but what to explain the experience. What was the feeling like? Well, like, obviously, like any, like, competition, any, like, big event, you're nervous for it. And I went into the competition thinking that there was only two medals available. And then when I crossed the line third, obviously, severely disappointed, hugged my teammates, kind of went off crying. And then, like, about five minutes later, there was like, yeah, you won bronze medal. And I was like, oh, my God.

To come home with that medal, what a proud feeling. I mean, this is what you work towards. Yeah, like, obviously, you do all your training. all the hard work you put in over the year and then you come, like, and then to come away with a bronze medal, like, especially at my first champs, like, yeah, crazy. Let's hear your story from the beginning then.

So when did you first realise or decide that this is what you wanted to pursue? Well, like I've always loved sport, like any type of sport. Like I've always been like very big into like football and netball, especially at start of secondary school. I first started athletics when I was 12. And I didn't like it, start with. And obviously, when I don't like something, I just don't like it.

So quit it. And then when I was 15, I couldn't do football anymore. So I decided to then go through athletics, the athletics route again, tried it. And then, yeah, it just kind of exploded from there. I first done my first GB debut when I was 15. Wonderful. Yeah. What happened with football?

I couldn't do it because my disability got too much. So I wasn't able to tackle anymore, wasn't able to run all. the wings that I was defender so like I wasn't able to do the stuff I wanted to do anymore um to my full extent so I kind of had to leave that on the side and kind of carrying on the things and how was that? Um it was very hard for me because football like is my favorite thing I've grew up with football like my dad grew up football my brother grew up football like I've just love football and yeah it's quite hard so who encouraged you to find a new way of expressing your love for sports um I think I feel like my dad always knew that I was really good

I was a really good athlete but obviously my foster carer Mick he was the one who kind of like initiated it so he helped me find a club help me find, help me get classified find the right people so yeah he's been a big rock as well

in my athletic career yeah tell me about the role that your parents and your foster carer's parents play in your life they both play like just as equal parts like obviously obviously I live with Mick and Pauling at the moment they've obviously provided a roof over my head obviously help me access sport like in whatever way like help me follow my dream

and they're your foster carers and then my foster parents and then my parents have just been like rocks like anything that I want to do like any decision I make they're just there behind me like cheering me on so good support network yeah I've got I mentioned in the opener that you also do this alongside holding down a job caring for children with serious medical needs tell me about that job what does that require um So it requires a lot of like mental strength, physical strength. Obviously, I look after, I have different children on my care. So I have different, I have children maybe with SMA, which is spinal muscular atrophy,

sometimes tracheostomy, sometimes breathing tubes, sometimes feeding tubes. Yeah, it's a lot of physical work, a lot of mental work. And obviously, it's very like emotionally hitting, like sometimes. Obviously, sometimes the children might not get better. Sometimes they will get better. So yeah, it's very, it's emotional challenge. And how much of your time does that take? Most of my week.

It takes up, yeah. So obviously, before the champs, obviously, like you do, you have to work. And, yeah, so I normally do about three to four night shifts a week. Okay, so give me a typical 24 hours in your life. So, yeah, typical 24 hours will be I'd normally start my shift around 10pm at night. What, most of my children live about an hour away from me. So I'd start my day at 9pm, travel to them for about 10pm. I'd done me work until about between 7 and 8.30,

depending on if they're going to school, like, when they're waking up. And then, yeah, after that, then I'll come home. And I only have training about 5pm, so I only get a couple of hours of sleep. And then go back on it again and then start again at 9pm. Are you not exhausted? Yeah. So what keeps you going? I think kind of, obviously, I don't often have breaks,

obviously having breaks, obviously, like calling my parents, like I said, they're my rocks. So like, obviously calling them in between shifts. Or sometimes I sleep around my boyfriends, obviously, it's kind of just a bit of a, it just breaks up the day a bit. And obviously, training does help me a lot. Obviously, it helps me kind of get my emotions out, get my frustration out, just by running, really. That is dedication. So you often go from, with hardly any sleep, straight from a night shift to training. Yeah.

With a lot of support. I have to say your boyfriend's come and support you today as well. Yeah, shout out Jack. No, he's like, yeah, it's a lot of dedication and, like, you've got to love it to do it. Like, if I hated it, I wouldn't be doing it today, would I? But, no, you've got, I feel like you've got to have that support network around you. Otherwise, yeah, I just wouldn't be able to do it. Yeah, absolutely relentless timetable.

Do you get any financial support for your training? No. So, yeah, I think that's a struggle in the power world anyway, like, just as an overall. like parathletes struggle to get funding. Yeah, so it's very difficult and obviously that's why I have to work full time. Sure. And you're currently part of the UK Athletics Futures Program

which the next level is the world class program which includes funding from the National Lottery to help. Do you hope to move on to that program soon? I do hope. I do like obviously after meddling at the world champs, like obviously I hope to do move up to that kind of like world class program. Obviously it'll give me a bit of an insight and obviously it will help me. Obviously, futures programme has helped me a lot.

Obviously, they provide a lot of, like, support, like, obviously, not financially, but in other ways, like, helping me kind of build up to these national, like, these world champs. So, yeah, I do hope to go on to the next programme, but obviously, you never know. What will it take for you to get there? Well, it should take a medal from at World Championships. Which you have, handling it. Yeah. But obviously, once you're kind of on the program, so, like, say if I'm on podium, potential, you can. can't go back down. Yeah.

So like once you're on it, they kind of want to keep you on it. So obviously it depends if they see potential on me or they don't see potential on me. It all depends. So we've just been listening to an interview with a very, very impressive young woman who's made a lot of money and with a lot of opportunity as well. And I'm sitting listening to you talking to me. You've just come back from the World Champion, Paro World Athletics Championships.

You won a bronze. You work caring for children. You get very little sleep. What is this drive and determination, this. focus where do you think you get this from um well i've always wanted to be like a carer slash nurse slash so i always wanted to work in in the NHS so i think like my kind of like younger self is like kind of in my ear like chatting to me saying like oh no you got to do this but obviously like i've always kind of wanted to be a sports person obviously i've like i said i've always

enjoyed sports always love sports and yeah like i just think that like i don't know like i just I feel like there's two, I've got two people in my ear and you're doing both. Yeah, and I just do both. It must be quite inspiring for you looking after the kids. Yeah, it definitely is. Do you see a connection between your caring work and the athletics?

Yeah, obviously, I, obviously, in the athletics world, obviously, we're all got some sort of disability. And obviously, like I said, my children at home have got disabilities too. And obviously, like, I just kind of like tell their parents, parents, like, I've seen people from the depths, like, some children, like, spent a year on a ventilator, like, in the athletics world. And obviously, some of these children have spent a year on a ventilator. And obviously, like, you kind of got to turn around and say to the children,

like, or children's parents, like, no matter, like, what position they're in now, in 10 years, they might be on the world stage. You never know, like. Yeah. Now, Clubfoot is a relatively common condition affecting around one in every 1,000 babies born in the UK. And you had Achilles tendon release surgery at the age of two but received no further treatment until the carbon fibre splint you started using a couple of years ago. So how does your condition affect you on a day to day?

It affects me in like loads of different ways. Obviously it depends what day it is but on like a really bad day like sometimes I can't even get out of bed like sometimes I get a lot of pain around my ankle. I've got no cartilage in my foot. So obviously my bones are rubbing against bones so obviously like on a bad day

like especially after a long training week sometimes I just like I'm in immense pain like with osteoarthritis so then yeah like I just it's a real struggle sometimes sometimes I struggle walking sometimes I struggle getting out of bed

sometimes I can't even just get out of bed so do you feel pain when you're on the when you're in the athletics field oh I'm always in constant pain yeah so what pushes you through just like I suppose my determination I just kind of I want to be the best obviously I want to be the best in the world

but obviously like you kind of have to work through like pain. I've got high pain tolerance. Yeah, or just a very focused mind. I think the mind of athletes are fascinating. I think you're built very differently to the rest of us, mere mortals. So tell me about this focus that you have. You have to, like obviously, I think it's very subconscious for me, having that focus, but obviously you kind of just set yourself a goal

and yeah, kind of just like the only thing, there's nothing on the side, you kind of just have to look towards that goal and be like, okay, I'm going to go for that, really. How do you stay motivated then on your toughest days? Obviously, I think having a support network around you just keeps you motivated. Obviously, like, if I tell my mum and dad or my boyfriend,

like, oh, I don't want to do this today or I really can't be else to go training today, then they remind me of kind of like why I'm doing this, like why I want to do this, like how much training I've put towards it and like, missing this one training session isn't going to help me. So then, like, yeah, I feel like having a big support network around you

keeps you motivated. well it's been an absolute pleasure speaking to you and I cannot wait to one day watch you in the Paralympics thank you is that the goal yeah of course it is we look forward to it BB Jackson thank you so much for coming in I told you you were going to hear from some very inspiring women on the program today so we're going to be talking about female travel writing in a moment but I asked you all to get dreaming about your holidays and tell me what inspired you to go on them and I'm going to read out some of your message because so many of you have got in touch my friend and I went to see the Kenneth Branagh film, Death on the Nile.

After seeing all the wonderful locations, we promptly booked a cruise. We had a wonderful week sailing the Nile, and we were only slightly disappointed that they were no murders, Michelle. I read the book Angels and Demons by Dan Brown. I was so excited by the description of the fountains in the plaza that I just wanted to go there. So I booked a family holiday to Rome. After booking it, the Pope became ill and died. And we ended up staying in a hotel near to the Vatican City walls. And on the second day, we attended Pope John Paul II's funeral, which was incredible, says Belinda.

Oh, yeah, to be somewhere when an event like that's taking place. And another one here, back in 1990, while recovering from a foot operation, a friend brought me a travel magazine. There was a little article about how Fidel Castro was going to celebrate the millennium when it actually occurs. That is in 2001, not 2000. I was impressed by his accuracy and tenacity and vowed to visit Cuba in 2000, 2001. It was a great holiday. Met lovely, friendly people. Keep your thoughts coming in. 814-4-4. Now, to be a female travel writer in the 70s, 80s or 90s, it probably involved setting off with notebooks, pens, a map. Now some writers would argue it's all about the smartphone and a list of the most effective hashtags.

While more older women travelling solo, according to the UK travel companies, is social media and the internet age-helping us document it, or is it drowning out the real stories behind the perfect selfie? Well, the new Ilza-Schwebke Prize, named after the pioneering German publisher, is pushing back and celebrating reflective travel writing by women. Journalist and writer Viv Groskap, shortlisted for her memoir, won Ukrainian Summer and Dr Barbara Shwepka, daughter of Ilza and founder of House Publishing. Join me now. Barbara, Fifth, welcome to Women's Hour. Thank you. Fiv, congratulations. Thank you.

I'm so excited. What does it mean? Just put this prize into context. Well, I was really surprised to discover the existence of this prize, I have to say. I read a brilliant book by one of our best travel writers, Sarah Wheeler, who I'm sure lots of listeners will know. She published a book two years ago called Glowing Still, which is really a sort of a farewell to travel writing. And she has been a travel writer for 40 years. She's been from Antarctic to Zanzibar, as she puts it in this book.

And that book was really saying that with the internet, with Instagram, with global warming and people's discomfort around air travel, with the fact that as a woman, there isn't really anywhere that you would go now where you would be the first, as she was many times in the 80s. And in that book, she's saying, I think travel writing is kind of over. And then to discover that this prize exists and that it had a huge amount of submissions and the red. on the short list alone is really fascinating. It's completely turned my mind around that actually I think this is a new time for travel writing. And I wonder if perhaps what Sarah Wheeler was describing was somehow influenced by the way we all felt during COVID,

which is, you know, travels really changed. It's never going to be the same again. And the Ilsa Shrepka Prize really shows me that actually we don't need to feel that way. The world is still open. We'll maybe have new ways of travelling and of looking at things and maybe being more responsible about travel. But there is a whole world of travel and travel writing out there, especially for women.

Oh, you've just set it all up for us. So much to get into. But first of all, Barbara, tell us about this inaugural prize, Why Now, and your mother, who it was named after. My mother came to publishing rather late in her 70s when my father had passed away. But she had 20 years of actually reliving her memories that she had been traveling with my father. But, I mean, she then enabled authors to write about the travels that they had taken. And she always thought that being a publisher, she had enabled two few women to write about their experiences. So when she passed away two years ago, I thought the best way of remembering her would be to actually endow this prize.

and she would be absolutely thrilled by the number of submissions that we had. And it is a dual language prize. So there's a sister prize in German. And then therefore we have two short lists and we will award the prize. And you can pay me any number of pounds. I'm not going to reveal who is going to win the prize. in a week's time. Not even for a cup of Yorkshire tea?

No, I'm afraid not. Viv, your book, One Ukrainian Summer, it's shortlisted, which you wrote about in the summer of 1990. You went on the summer of 1994. Tell me about how different that trip was to how it would have been travelled now. Yeah, so I really conceived this as a memoir more than as a piece of travel writing.

And the instruction that I had to myself when I was writing it on post-its all around my desk was take us there, take us there. And I kept saying to myself, as I was writing, all you have to do is take the reader there. So for me, it was almost more of an act of time travel because it's set in 1993, 1993, 1994, than an act of travel because I'm just trying to bring alive the fact that I was in this place for, it's set over 18 months, but it focuses on the run-up to this one Ukrainian summer. It's a kind of a mash-up of spinal tap meets goodbye Lenin. This is already my favorite book. Thank you.

I was a groupie of a Ukrainian punk rock band who described themselves as Ukraine and Sotura Tchillipepa. And my very, very hot boyfriend at the time was the lead guitarist in the band. What's the name of the band? The band were called Colney Hatch. Yes, they didn't quite achieve the success that they were hoping for, but at the time they were amazing. And for a long time, I did want to tell this story, and I pitched it often. to publishers over 20 years

and was always told no one knows where Ukraine is you know no one cares about this sort of post-Soviet stories anymore and then of course when everything started in 2022 a continuation of what had been

happening since 2014 I thought now people know where Ukraine is and maybe this is a time to explain something about the hinterland of what people have been living with and so So I decided to write this book and found a publisher and all the proceeds from it go to Penn International, the Freedom of Speech charity, because I didn't feel comfortable about writing about Ukraine at this time and profiting from it in any way. So I think that theme goes through a lot of the books that are connected to this prize.

I want to pay tribute as well to my fellow nominees, Victoria Whitworth for Dustin Pomegranates and Ursula Martin for one woman walked to Europe. up. A lot of the books that were mentioned as well at the shortlist party that didn't make the shortlist, they have some kind of real sensitivity and responsibility to the places they're talking about and to the stories that they're telling. And I think that's a big shift in travel writing as well, that there's a real sense of wanting to avoid cultural appropriation, you know, wanting to avoid stepping on other people's stories, wanting to avoid centering yourself, which is a really interesting part of travel writing because traditionally travel writers are very bold

and they step forth and they centre themselves and they discover places because of course no one ever knew they existed before apart from the people that live there a long tradition of pioneering female travel writers Barbara do you think it's important to document how women write differently to men about travel? Yes because especially if you think

all these wonderful women set off traveling in places where it's difficult to be a woman where you would be viewed differently and maybe with suspicion. Maybe it is easier these days with translation apps to make communicate with the people who you meet when you go out there. But these women have been doing this even without translation apps because you communicate

through breaking bread together, asking with your hands and your feet what the direction is. I mean, for example, one of the shortlists authors literally walked from Kiev to Wales. Wow.

And that is... I'm so glad I didn't have to write my book. So, I mean, this is an incredible feed. And yes, it is a very personal experience. And that is what this wonderful jury was actually highlighting, that it is the personal experience. It's not the selfie. It is the getting you to the place that you have seen

through your eyes it's a very personal description of the experience that you have had that's what we're celebrating and also you know when we read women travel writers or women making documentaries whatever you often hear them talking to women

and hearing the women's experience in that country which is different so but also we have to be honest that it is also incredibly courageous I mean one of the short lists authors also says that she experienced while being their sexual violence against women.

And she... Well, the judges mentioned that was a theme in the submissions. Yes. And it was very honest of her to write about that. But she also thereby highlights the experience of women throughout the world. And especially in conflict zones, which she travelled through. You mentioned Sarah Wheeler's book,

and she's sort of put forward this argument that social media is killing off travel writing. Could the two not sit side by side, Viv? I think they have to, and I think the way that we consume not only writing, but ideas and journalism and inspiration of where to go and how to think about things,

that has changed so radically over the last 30 years. I was trying to figure out, you know, who are regarded as the top, female travel writers now, I mean, aside from Sarah Wheeler, who's obviously on a level of her own. And I was realizing that most people think of Elizabeth Gilbert or Cheryl Strait as in inverted commas travel writers for Eat, Pray, Love and Wild. And these are very much pre-social media almost narratives that have a social media philosophy behind them of it's almost like a literary selfie those books. And I think what we're seeing now is people doing their own

versions of eat, pray, love type thing, not literally, although that was a big thing about 10 years ago, on Instagram. And I don't personally have a hierarchy. You know, if I'm interested in something, I'm interested in it. I don't really care how I consume it. Are your daughters off travelling? Is she travelling now? Yeah, my daughter has just started university, but she was on a gap year this previous year. And so I could compare her experience age 19 to mine age 21 and poor her, you know, she's got mum on the end of WhatsApp every step of the way. A really different experience. And that's what I think is kind of sad in some ways for a younger generation is that they have to be very conscious to separate themselves from the digital world

and, you know, that kind of parental support at the end of the line the whole time. Whereas I just went off grid for six months, which must have been awful for my parents. But it was great. Off grid. No photo evidence. Exactly. Which you can't erase. Exactly. And we know that more and more women are choosing to travel solo. And actually, I'm going to just read out because we've got not much time left.

I'm going to read out a few messages because there's so many coming in. My now wife and I ran away to New Zealand in 2004 for five weeks traveling to get married. No one knew. Destination inspired by Lord of the Rings. And another one here saying seven years ago for my 60th birthday, my four amazing children arranged a surprise trip to Florence for me. My son had remembered me saying years before how I would love to visit there after watching a room with a view. There you go. These are lovely messages. There's so many of them

coming in. Just basically my advice is book it. Just book it and read it. Book it and read the book. Viv, Goscrop and Barbara Shwepka, thank you so much for coming in. Alongside, Viv, you mentioned Victoria Whitworth has been nominated alongside Ursula Martin. That's it from me. Join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. was featureless, and its entire body was jet black. I'm Danny Robbins, and throughout October, I will be sharing uncanny listeners, real-life ghost stories.

That's one every single day as we count down to the spookiest time of the year. Suddenly, all hell lets loose. The sound of glass smashing, heavy objects being thrown, doors being ripped off hinges. It was coming from the cellar. I looked up and was staggered to see A humongous black triangle floating silently over the rooftop.

Join me as uncanny Counts Down to Halloween every day in October on BBC Sounds. A new season of Love Me is here. Real stories of real, complicated relationships. It's not even like a gender. I mean, it's wrapped up in gender, but it's just a... It's just a really deep self-hate. I think I cried almost every day. I just stole myself on the floor.

He's coming on really straight. It's like he's trying to date you all of the sudden. Yeah, and I do look like my mother. Love me. Available now wherever you get your podcasts.