Woman's Hour - 11/09/2025

Episode Date: September 11, 2025

Women's voices and women's lives - topical conversations to inform, challenge and inspire.

Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Sophie Ellis Bexter with Murder on the Dance Floor, the track that found her a whole new fan base after being used on the soundtrack to the film Saltburn. Sophie will be here to tell me about that and her brand new album, Perry Menopopop. Heather Morris, the best-selling author of The Tattooist of Auschwitz, is also here to talk about her new book, The Wish. An ITV documentary has revealed that for decades, thousands of pregnant women across the UK were prescribed a synthetic hormone that was meant to help prevent miscarriage, but the drug left a legacy of life-altering health problems for some of their children and potentially their grandchildren will be finding out more.

And the charity Parenthind conducted a landmike survey of almost 6,000 parents and found that fewer than half of UK children under 15 help with household chores. Well, what's happening in your household? The CEO of Parenthood, Jason Elsom, is worried, and he says somewhere along the way gentle parenting has been misread as gentle expectations. Chores are not punishments, he says. They're the first lesson in teamwork, responsibility and self-rength. Reliance? Well, what are your thoughts? Do your children help out at home? This comes up a lot in

conversations between me and my friends, because in South Asian households, kids do chores. There's never any financial transaction about it. You just get on with it. It's part of life. Can you relate to that? Or are you constantly cleaning up after your kids? Still tidying your teenagers' beds, picking up after them? Who hovers? Who cleans the dishes? How do you get them to do it? And do you agree that chores are the first lesson in self-reliance? And here's a question. Is there a difference between how you treat your boys and your girls. Whatever your thoughts on this, get in touch with the program in the usual way. 84844 is the text number.

You can email us by going to our website, and you can send me a WhatsApp on 0300-100-444. In fact, if you'd like to comment on anything you hear on the program, your thoughts and opinions always welcome that text number. Once again, 84844. But first, for decades, thousands of pregnant women across the UK were prescribed diather still bestrol, or DES, a synthetic hormone that was meant to help prevent miscarriage,

but the drug left a legacy of life-altering health problems for some of their children, including infertility and rare cancers. ITV social affairs correspondent Sarah Corker has investigated what they're calling a medical scandal that continues to devastate lives, talking to the women who say more must be done to help those exposed to the drug as new concerns emerge over the impact of DES on a third generation.

Well, Sarah joined me shortly before we came on air, and I asked her how to explain to me what the drug is. Well, Stelbestrol, also commonly known as DES, was once hailed as this wonder drug. It was used around the globe from the late 1930s to the early 1980s, and it was prescribed to millions of women to treat pregnancy complications and several other issues. But almost as soon as it was invented in Britain in 1939,

There were these warnings about the sinister side effects of the drug, yet it was still used and prescribed across the NHS for decades. And it was later found to cause a rare type of vaginal cancer and infertility problems in the daughters of those who took it. Now, this evidence started to emerge from medical studies in the early 1970s from the United States. And there was evidence even early on that the harm of this. drug in some cases has been passed down the generations and what our investigation has found is that the regulatory authorities did not act on this mounting evidence early enough the response certainly in the UK was sluggish it was slow the doctors at the time seemed to downplay the risks and that meant that women were exposed to this drug long after they should have been and for some the

health problems have been catastrophic and are continuing today. Was it ever believed to be effective? Early on, they thought it was effective in terms of preventing miscarriage. That was one of the main uses. It was given to women in very high doses in the early stages of pregnancy in the first trimester. And it was thought that it would help babies to grow bigger and stronger. But in the 1950s, there were a series. of medical studies, reports that actually, you know, questions its efficacy.

And it wasn't even effective. So it shouldn't have been used yet this evidence wasn't really taken on board by the pharmaceutical companies. They continue to market it, almost as this panacea, really, to treat all kinds of issues in pregnancy, sales boomed, and yet it should never really have been used for pregnant women at all. So how long was it prescribed for? Can you give us dates?

I can, yes. So it was first synthesized in 1939 in Britain. It was used throughout the 40s, 50s and 60s. And then once these warnings about the health risk started to emerge, the usage dropped off. But we have been contacted by women who say they were still given the drug in the late 1970s, early 80s. And that is despite the fact that when we first contacted the medicines regulator, the they told us that they had written to doctors, their predecessor had written to doctors in 1973 to tell them, don't use this drug because of this research coming out of the States about the cancer link. Yet when we've looked for that evidence, we've gone through hundreds of files in the National Archives trying to find out, you know, when was this drug withdrawn, what was the paper trail? We can find no evidence of that. And in fact, the MHRA have come back to us and said, we've put out incorrect information, doctors weren't written to in 1973, and actually the reality, the evidence shows, this drug was never banned,

it was never withdrawn, women were not protected from its sinister side effects for many, many years, and it continued to be used. The latest date we have from, you know, the nearly 400 people who have contacted us was 1981 that they say they were given it. That is a a decade after the US scientists confirmed this link to this rare type of vaginal cancer and the daughters of those who took it. So it's really shocking when you kind of set out the dates and the lack of action. Yeah. And the MHRA have now admitted that it misled the public for more than a decade.

But they've also said that this information was taken from historical departmental response that we've now found to be inaccurate. And they say that they value your investigative work on this. What do you say to that? What I say to that is we, through our investigation, we first went to them and said, can you tell us a specific date when this drug was withdrawn? And they couldn't. So we started doing our own investigations.

They kept saying this 1973 figure. But women contacted us saying, well, that can't be right because we were still given it. And then, you know, it was only because we went to the National Archives, the British Library went through all these public documents and said it's not here. The paper trail is damning and it is only through that reporting that they've now admitted that this false statement has been put out as a, you know, since 2012 really. And I think it shows, I mean, some people might say, well, why is this important today? But I think firstly, it shows just how badly these women were let down all those years ago.

The warnings weren't acted upon they were still given this drug. But in the years that have followed, they've continued to be failed because there was no effort to trace and inform the women who were exposed to this drug. There are no enhanced screenings. There is no recognition of the harm done. And many doctors don't even know about the drug. And this is in stark contrast to what we have seen in other European countries who have taken action on this. We are going to play a clip, Sarah, from the documentary. But before we do, what do we know about the impact DES has had on women?

and on their children? We've heard from hundreds of women. You know, they've written to us describing the generational impact. So as the daughters of the women who took it, they are at an increased risk of certain types of cancers of the reproductive system. They also suffer in some cases from fertility issues and internal abnormalities.

They've been, you know, had to have screenings for years and years and years, painful procedures. And then there is now emerging evidence that this harm could be passed down to the granddaughters, to the third generation of people. And we've heard from some women who say they are now also experiencing fertility issues. And the big question is, where does this harm stop? You've got the DES mothers who also have an increased risk of breast cancer. You've got the DES daughters who have this increased risk of cancers of the reproductive system. and now there's the granddaughter's evidence suggesting they may have fertility issues.

So it just keeps going. Well, let's listen to one of those granddaughters. This is Izzy, who you interviewed in the documentary. Last year I went for my cervical smear test, which came back not clear. Ever since that, I've just felt full of dread and anxiety. It's just a constant worry. And I took those worries to my GP, and it was a waste of time. They didn't know what DES was.

So it was kind of humiliating, sat there trying to explain myself. Someone needs to be held accountable for what they've done to our whole family. Yeah, you're right. It did take a big part of our lives away. The hurt, the trauma, the stuff that you went through both physically and mentally, it just makes me feel full of anger that some drug companies put you through this. And it could have been prevented. I mean, shocking really hearing that clip

and that her GP didn't even know what DES was I mean DES wasn't just used in the UK though how have other countries dealt with the impact of it I read that the Netherlands has a specialist doctor in every hospital yeah that's right so as part of our investigation and for the ITV Tonight programme we travelled to the Netherlands to see how they dealt with the scandal there

and potentially what Britain could learn from it They, in the 80s, when all this evidence was emerging, they traced and informed the women exposed. And then this camp, so the doctors specifically went through the records to make sure that they knew the scale of the problem in the Netherlands. And we think around 300,000 women there were prescribed the drug. And then the years that followed, there was a lot of campaigning, legal battles, lots of court cases. And in the end, there was this financial settlement. So a compensation scheme was set up. It came after this landmark court ruling in the Dutch legal system.

Basically, a multi-million euro compensation scheme was set up, paid for by the pharmaceutical companies that produced this drug. So basically what this means is those affected in the Netherlands, DES mothers, DES daughters, and even DES sons. can apply to this fund to get compensation for the medical harm, for the health problems that they have suffered. We spoke to one woman there who got 120,000 euros in compensation. So there's all of that, but then also the greater awareness of DES there means that there's specialist medical care in every major hospital in the Netherlands. There is a DES dedicated doctor.

They have screenings every two years for cervical cancer to make sure they're pick up the signs early. So so much has happened there and it is in stark contrast to the UK where many doctors still have never even heard of it. And what about the government? How have they responded? Well, we've put all of this to the health secretary West Streeting and in an interview with me he admitted that the state had failed all those years ago to take regulatory action and he said he was exploring what effective redress and remedy could look like. A spokesperson for the Department of Health also said our sympathies are with anyone harmed by the historic use of D.F.L. Stelbestol, and the Secretary of State has been clear he will look seriously at these allegations. And we've raised this a number of times with them over the last 10 months since we've been investigating this.

And we've asked, are they tried to ascertain the scale of the problem? And that is one of the things they say they are looking into. And what do the women impacted by this want to happen? they want a number of things for many of them it's the recognition of the harm done and the fact that in their view they should never have been prescribed this drug in the first place so you've got the mothers who took it because they thought it would prevent miscarriage prevent them from losing their pregnancies it then turned out to be ineffective you've got the daughters who have suffered and now potentially the granddaughters so they want it on record that there was a failure here they all want enhanced screening. So at the moment, there is no national screening program for these women to check for these types of cancers and abnormalities. That is the key thing they are asking for, this specialist care and doctors just to know about DES or a public awareness campaign. And then there was also a group that is pushing for compensation because they say they have had

lifelong health problems as a result of this drug that was prescribed on the NHS, despite the warnings about its side effects. And so they're really trying to raise awareness to push for these things. But I think, as you know, with previous scandals, things take a long, long time. And for many women, there is a sense that time is not on our side because many of them are now elderly. And in the Netherlands, it took 25 years to get the compensation scheme and the specialist care.

And we are almost 25 years behind them. Well, and I guess, you know, you and I talking about it on the radio this morning is public awareness. So what should women do if they think they may have had the drug prescribed to them? So the guidance at the moment is for them to discuss this with their GP, to raise it. And that is the start of the conversation. And it then may be, if they're a DES daughter and are struggling with fertility issues or have other concerns about abnormalities, it's then about trying to get referred to, especially this gynecologist and to make sure that they're getting the right treatment. One of the major issues I should point out is all of this happened so long ago. The

medical records are often missing. They've been destroyed because of the time scale and the time has passed. So it can be difficult to even prove that you're exposed to the drug. And that is one of the major challenges facing many. And some may never know the truth about whether they were exposed to But I think if there's any abnormality, certainly when it comes to cervical smears or issues there, they should speak to their doctor and raise the issue of DES and whether they've been exposed. Well, a Department for Health Spokesperson said our sympathies are with anyone harmed by the historic use of DES, the Secretary of State, has been clear he will look seriously at these allegations. That was Sarah Corker, ITV social affairs correspondent, speaking to me from.

the quietest place you could find in the train station and you can watch Toxic Legacy our hidden drug scandal tonight at 8.30 on ITV1. Lots of you getting in touch with what happens in your household when it comes to the chores and young people. It was a constant battle to try and get my daughter to pull her weight and help with the chores resulting in arguments, sanctions and lots of bad feeling, but I wouldn't give in. Exhausting for me and probably pretty unpleasant for her. She's now 25 yesterday, happy birthday, and sharing a house with three other young women, she often rings me to say that the other girls in the house are not doing their share of chores and says, I'm so sorry, Mom, I didn't realize what it must have been like for you.

We have a lovely relationship now and the frustrations of the dreadful teenage years are well behind us. Don't give upon your standards and boundaries. And another one here saying, I have a large number of children, boys and girls. I didn't really expect them to do much housework until the eldest was about eight. Then I read a book about the importance of children contributing to the household. After that, everyone had age-appropriate jobs until they left home and they know how to cook from scratch. clean, wash and iron their clothes. Stop for healthy food and budget.

We never made a distinction between boys and girls. 84844, the text number. Now, on to my next guest. Author, Heather Morris, the global best-selling author. Best known for the tattooist of Auschwitz Trilogy of Books. She sold over 19 million copies around the world. While she's back with her new novel of contemporary fiction, The Wish. The book follows Jessie, a 15-year-old girl with leukemia.

Her final wish is to create a digital recreation of her life so her family and friends can relive their memories with her after she's gone. To accomplish this, she connects with Alex, a CGI computer-generated imagery, for those of you didn't, were wondering, designer who grew up in the care system. The story explores their unlikely friendship and it's a profound impact on both of their lives. Heather, welcome to Woman's Hour.

Oh, thank you. It's a delight to be here. It's wonderful to have you here. Congratulations. Thank you. We are going to talk about the book, but first, chores. You've got three children? Yeah, yeah, but they're big kids now. Did you bring them up, making them do chores?

For the most part, we did. But what I love, and here's a little, maybe people might want to take a note of it, my daughter has got three children, their age from 6 to 11. Now, when it comes to doing chores, and she started this several years ago, that she found out a way her and a husband worked out a way to get them to do it where they wanted to do it. So here's the deal, folks. yes you are going to pay them to do it a small sum of money but to get that for the chores you're going to do

they have to do three chores every day free and so those chores that she's got them doing are you must put all your dirty washing in the linen basket in the bathroom you must make your own bed and you must help with emptying and loading the dishwasher so three free chores and then one paid one and then help dad wash the car

whatever else, pick up the dog, poo out in the backyard. Anything over and above those three freebies, you know, they pay them and they've got a little bank account, it all gets transferred immediately, and it can be withheld if you don't do them. It's very good. I mean, I bet people, some people are taking notes. I wish you'd spoken to my parents about that when I was. Yeah, and I wish I didn't know more, too.

The book, the wish. Like all your books, the inspiration comes from real encounters. This is no different, because you worked for 20. 20 years as a social worker in Australia. So tell me about the inspiration behind the wish. One particular incident involving one patient and a person from the outside world who came in, but in reality it's inspired by so many of those amazing young adults, teenagers, who are on the pediatric oncology ward.

Over 20 years, you move around in a big acute hospital like I was, so you're not spending your entire career working in one area. It's a self-care thing. You've got to look after yourself. Your boss is one to look after you. And at a time, I was having quite a bit of input into the pediatric oncology ward. And one thing happened one day.

And I actually wrote this story over 20 years ago because when it happened, I had to write it down. It was so incredibly profound that through this simple act, if a mum saying to me one day that her teenage son was so bored, he was back in hospital, he would be needing to have treatment for another four to five weeks.

He had leukemia and that he was tired of all his Nintendo games. And they were having trouble trying to just keep his mind occupied. I discovered that in Melbourne there was a Nintendo office. I rang them. I said, anything you can do to help this boy. Two days later, a young man, this mid-20s, came to me and said, oh, I've been sent by Nintendo to give these games. And I said, I took them initially and I said, oh, hang on a minute.

why don't you actually take them up and give them to the patient yourself? Right. And he went up and I left him there. And the long and the short of it is that he then kept coming back. He then became part of the ward. He became part of that patient's family.

And he kept coming back down to see me in my office every now and then saying, I had no idea. Thank you for changing my world, changing my life. And he described how he had been a product of the foster system, was on the street at 13, living rough, had the choice of going into drugs and getting into trouble,

but instead he went and started playing video games and arcade games. And he's the inspiration behind Alex. And he's the inspiration behind Alex. The CGI-I designer. The closed-off man, who then found that there was a world of these incredible young teenagers who opened his eyes to living. Wonderful. And we're going to talk about where your ideas come from,

because I know they're all from real encounters. But I'd like, if you could, Heather, if you could read, from the book, that'd be brilliant. If you could set the scene and give us a brief intro to what we're about to hear. Look, absolutely. This is the first time that Alex is on the ward and he meets Jessie. And the social worker that's taken up there, she's left them and hoping that they'll start to make a connection.

He doesn't want to be there. There's the difference between him and my real guy. Yeah. My real guy wanted to keep coming back. Whereas Alex, he doesn't want to be there. This is way far out of his comfort zone. So they've just met. Alex feels Jesse's eyes on him as he studies the photos carefully.

Jesse, pretty as a picture, long light brown hair, building sandcastles on the beach with who he presumes are her parents and a younger brother. A perfect nuclear family, Alex thinks ruefully, something he's never known. Your family, he asks, turning back to face, Jesse. Yep, you're an athlete. I was. And a dancer. was. Is there anything you can't do? Get better. That's why you're here.

I'm so sorry Alex's voice breaks. Are those tears welling up in his eyes? He needs to pull himself together, but he can't. He takes a step backwards as if to leave. You can come closer, you know. You won't catch it from me. Alex nudges the chair beside her bed a little further away before sitting down. I want a video, like a story of my life, with all the happy things my family and I have done, something that they can be part of, then watch if, when I'm not here.

Something they don't forget me. Don't forget you, Alex repeats. Do you know what the word terminal means? Jesse says sharply. Alex rubbs his forehead. life is so crap And this is because Jessie wants to leave behind a memory project for her family

Yes she's an avid video game player And Nintendo game player And for her that world of gaming And being able to involve family That's how she sees it And I was very lucky that I have a son that works in the film industry in Melbourne And he works in that industry of 3D

Sort of filming in CGI And he took me into the studio and showed me how it's done and then had to explain to me in layman's language how to then write it so that hopefully you, the reader, can follow it. It is technical. I've tried to pull back that technical side of it,

but what I describe here is very, very achievable. In fact, it's done in the film industry every day the week. What did you learn from your son about the role that technology can play in bridging the gap between life and loss? Well, he was the fabulous thing until we were talking about it, and he and I were looking at how he could do this,

and not complicated for him. He says it's just all software and backdrops and films and you go out and video the environment and then come back and recreate it on this massive wall. It's called a wall of screens. And that's when it occurred to us. Hang on a minute. This is actually something that you can offer.

And so we're going to see her now the book is out, pup day to day. And I suspect that we're now going to make an approach to make a wish in Melbourne and say, look, we have this. technology. Incredible. Can we offer it to you?

There are places in London here, in L.A. and New Zealand, where to there, that have got this technology. And whilst you were exploring it, what did you find yourself thinking about when it came to how we hold on to someone once they're gone? Look, for me, sadly because of where I worked for so long, dealing with grief, always somebody else's grief. Oh, yeah, of course I've had my own. but it became a matter of

we all only want to remember the good times and that's fabulous, that's fine, that's good do that folks remember the good times but with children the little children under about 10 or 12 very different because they don't have the same concept of dying and of death

whereas you see teenagers they've now got that kind of wisdom way beyond their years they do have that concept and so it becomes well I can't live to get married I had my 21st birthday go to university

what can I do for my family to try and experience me being in that world and that's how we created the story around Jessie wanting to go forward in years that she's not going to live and leave that memory that visual memory

for her family and friends and Alex who grew up in the foster care system the person who's actually based on someone real that you met over 20 years ago how does his lack of family reflect in the strong bond that Jesse has with her family?

It's totally foreign to him. He can't relate to it. He's jealous of it at one end, but he also, he doesn't see how he can fit into it. And initially he doesn't want to. His only friend, really, is his dog. And this young chap that I met, he had a dog. And that's what he told me, my dog is my life.

And so for him needing to learn about, as these young kids say to every one of us on the ward and everyone they meet, that dying takes moments, the rest of the time we're living. And you would hear them when they'd come back, if they'd been on remission, they'd been back at home, they'd gone to school, and they'd come back and say, why do kids at school, and why do people, and I hear them saying to my parents, oh, someone's dying, they're going, we're not dying, we're living. And for me, that is the message that we are living, guys, every second we're breathing.

So keep living and recognise that And Alex had to get there He wasn't living, he was existing Work, home, dog I want to talk to you about success Because your historical trilogy, the tattooist of Auschwitz Sold over 19 million copies worldwide And you wrote it at 65

So that came later in life How did that change your life? This is my retirement folks It's called Living the Dream I'm very, very lucky that I continue to do this. And one of the things about being in the third act of your life is you feel the pressure to keep going. There's now, oh, I'll take a couple of years off

and have a relax and chill and enjoy what's been going on. And so in the seven years since it came out, this is now my seventh book. And so for me, it's fantastic because I love the stories. I love the people I get to meet. Stories come to me from all around the world. Yeah. And how they come and how I decide that one, I've got to tell that one.

But the wish is a departure in that it's not historical. The tattooist of Auschwitz did receive some criticism for historical accuracy. How did you cope with the concerns that people had had with the blending of fact and fiction? Look, I'm going to say a very brief period of time I didn't know how to cope with it. I didn't know how to respond. And it was a matter of, well, do I say something? Do I go back and try and engage with the critics that are saying that you don't tell the Holocaust stories this way? And while I was sort of having this sort of conversation and this argument with myself, do I don't, I, do I don't I?

And I remember waking up one morning and going, you know, sort it. I don't care. I don't care about the critics because I have been very, very clear. The Tatars of Auschwitz is the memory of Lully Sokolov. and nobody, nobody gets to say that his memory was wrong. It's his memory. And every other Holocaust survivor I have met and I have been privileged to meet hundreds around the world,

they all say, yeah, look, my memory is the same and it's different because we're all individual and how we remember things. And so I'm really good about this. I've written a book, hand on heart, this is the story Lully told me. He saw many, many copies of it written as a screenplay because that's how I wrote it 20-odd years ago. He'd signed off on it, and for me, no, I proudly go out there and say, this is the story of Lally Sokoloff.

The same with the three sisters, Livy, Seby and Magda. I got to, of course, meet Magda and Livy, and sadly Livy, the youngest, she only died in April this year, at 99. But that is their story. Heather Morris, thank you so much for coming in and speaking to me, enjoy the rest of your incredible retirement. Yeah, yeah, I hope my retirement is as fulfilling as yours. The Wish by Heather Morris is out today. Thank you, Heather.

84844 is the text number. Now, we would like to hear from you. Do you wish you saw your friends more, but life keeps getting in the way? Is planning a catch-up harder than cracking a secret code? Do you meet, do you feel your friend, meeting up with your friends is more like admin than quality time? Are we trying to keep too many friendships alive? And is that okay? We're exploring all of this on Woman's Hour soon and we would like to hear from you.

So let us know your thoughts, stories or struggles around friendship. Get in touch in the usual way. You can email the program by our website. You can contact us on social media and that text number once again is 84844. Now last week you may have heard some of our interviews with three women who have had a loved one take their own life. They told us about their experience in the immediate. and long-term aftermath of such a life-changing and devastating event. Well, today we're taking a look at the historical context of suicide,

which was decriminalized in England and Wales in 1961. Joining me is Stephanie Brown, who is lecturer in criminology at the University of Hull and doing research in this area. Stephanie, morning. Welcome to the program. Morning, Anita. Lovely to be here. Tell us about your area of research, first of all. So I am a historical criminologist, so I am. I'm interested in all the things that criminologists are interested in,

questions around crime, suspects, victims, policing, prisonment, punishment, punishment, rehabilitation, the connections and the disconnections between law and society. But from a historical perspective, so I look at the history of crime broadly from the Middle Ages through to the modern day with focus on the 13th and 14th century and then the 18th and 19th century. current project is called criminal justice, from criminal justice to public health, the legal and social reactions to suicide. And suicide stopped being a crime only in 1961. What was happening before that? Only in 1961. So yes, crime for sort of the whole period that I'm studying from the 12th century through to the 19th century, suicide was a, was not only a, was not only

a crime. It was a felony. So it was one of the most serious crimes that we have. It was akin to murder. In fact, it was another type of homicide. So today when we say homicide, we think interpersonal. We think two people are involved. But suicide would just be another type of homicide. And in fact, suicide was seen as worse than murder. A coroner's guide from the 18th century refers to suicide. as a crime more shocking to humanity than the killing of another person. So not only was it a crime, it was deemed as a very serious crime, and attempted suicide was also criminalised along with suicide. And these criminal charges often had a big impact on the people left behind,

particularly women. Tell us more about that. Absolutely. So the coroner's records tend to centre on the person who died, by suicide, the coroner and his jury are doing an investigation into how that person died. You know, historically, the coroner's role is similar to what the coroner does now. In the past, he'd have the help of a jury, so the community would have much more of a say as well. So the records tend to centre on that person, how they died, the circumstances behind that, and then whether they should be punished or not. But when I look at these records, I often find myself thinking about those left behind.

as suicide was a crime, if we're calling suicide a crime, well, you can't punish the person who died by suicide. There's nothing more that you can do to them. So you have to punish the people left behind. And there were three ways in which spouse, the family, the friends, the community of the person could be punished. They could be punished through sort of legal or social punishments, they could be punished economically, or we could sort of see religious punishments. Such as? So the legal and social is, firstly, you are being deemed as a criminal, you are recorded as a felon and you're having all of the legal and social stigma that goes along with that.

Which is where the phrase committed suicide comes from? Absolutely. We still hear it in language today. And it's something that I try and avoid, even when I'm talking about my historic cases, where it is technically correct, because it's still there in our language, it's still there to use to sort of, there's still of a stigma around suicide today. And that word committed does a lot of that stigma. So in the past, if you are, if you've died by suicide, your family are facing the stigma of having a criminal, one of the worst types of criminals in their family, that can be anything from sort of whispers in the, community noticing people talking about you, people crossing the street to avoid you, or it could grow into social and economic isolation. Then on top of that, you've got the religious punishments. So from the 12th century, right up until the 19th century, if you were found to die by suicide,

you'd be died a Christigin burial. And one of the most striking examples of this that I found in my research. When I was sat in Bath record office, I was flicking through the coroner's inquests, flicking through, because most of the coroner's business is not something that I'm interested in as a criminologist. I get to the best that I'm interested in. Yeah. Most of the coroner's business is accidental death. So I was looking through and I found this one case of a young servant girl called Susanna Patient. She'd newly arrived in the city of Bath. She was working in service. was in one of these big, massive, large regency houses, sandwich between the Royal Crescent and the circus, and the coroner's jury decided that she had died by suicide.

Other servants in the house come forward, and they give evidence about how she didn't come down for breakfast, how they went up and discovered her, and all three of the servants and the doctor testify that she was insane and distracted. So they're trying to say that she wasn't a criminal. She died by suicide through what we would say as mental health concerns. So she should escape all of these legal punishments. The jury, they didn't agree with that. They decided that she was a criminal, that she should face the full consequences of the law.

She had this stigma of being a criminal. And on the front of the inquest, there was this tiny little piece of paper attached with a wax seal. And it said that it was a notice from the parish constable. to the coroner saying that Susanna patient had been buried at the crossroads outside the city of Bath at 1 a.m. in the morning on the 8th of June 1905. I just remember the feeling of that hitting me. As a legal historian, you hear, exactly, you hear about these sort of more folklorish things, about crossroad burials, about stakes through the body, and you sort of wonder how often did this happen? Is this real legal history? Is this sort of something more

more cultural, something folkloric? But to find an actual example of that in my hand, and I was sitting in the location where the inquest happened, I was in the Guildhall, which is now Bath Record Office, that's where the coroner's inquest in 1805 would have actually happened. And to hear that that happened to Susanna. So being buried at the crossroads denies you a Christian burial. It denies you a burial site. So for those left behind, your family have no service to attend. They're not allowed to attend. You're buried at night to prevent people from coming. No service. No place to visit. No place to lay flowers. No place to remember you. And you'd awesome. Interesting that women, that people did try and and defend her, if you like,

that's, yeah, that this idea that she was, she's not a criminal. it was mental health. So there is some sense of humanity around her story. Yeah, it was such a sad inquest to read because three of the servants and the doctor who did the examination after she was found, they all tried to speak up for it. They did the best they could

to try and convince the jury that they should show compassion, that they should show mercy, that they should rule that this was somebody who was insane and therefore cannot be held criminally responsible and would escape all of this religious punishment, all of the legal stigma, but also the economic punishments that would follow.

The number of those taking their own lives was still higher in men, as they are today, but more women attempted to take their life, right? Can you explain? Absolutely. So, yeah, the sort of sex ratios between suicide is fairly stable across the centuries, much more men than women, between two-third to three-quarters men. So women are in the minority of those who complete a suicide. But in the 19th century and today,

women are much more likely to attempt suicide. In fact, women are twice as likely to attempt suicide compared to men. So whereas there's a big, massive focus on sort of men's mental health and challenges around masculinity and men speaking and getting help and all of that work is absolutely important and I wholly agree with it. If we exclude attempted suicide from the picture, we're neglecting to think about women and we're perhaps assuming that women are doing better than they actually are. They are much more likely to attempt suicide. For every male attempt, There are two female attempts. So the call is really for proper mental health services, proper state and community, social support for everybody.

How and when did the law change, Stephanie? So as you said in the introduction, the law sort of finally, although this week we're seeing conversations reignited around assisted dying, but for sort of suicide itself, it finally changes in 1961. At that moment, it is decriminalised, but it was a sort of slow process through the 19th century. So these punishments, which are inflicted on those left behind, are stripped away through the course of the 19th century. So the first thing that we see in 1823 is the Burial of Suicides Act. This bans the burying at crossroads, and it bans putting a stake through the body. so we're no longer doing that the next legal change comes in 1870 where it bans felony forfeiture so I've mentioned a couple of times about economic punishments anyone found to be a felonious suicide all of their chattels so that's their movable goods would be seized and sold and the money would either go to the crown or to the city corporation so again this is a

another severe punishment being inflicted on those left behind. It'll have consequences for partners, for children. It could leave families economically vulnerable or even destitute. But we see that lifted in 1870 that no longer applies to suicides. And then the final legal change that comes in the 19th century is around burying people at night, burying suicides at night. So when I was speaking about Suazana patient, she was buried at one o'clock in the century. the morning to prevent there being a service, to prevent people coming, to prevent people saying prayers or remembering her. So that is banned in 1882. Suicide no longer have to be buried after 9pm. And now they can be buried during the daytime and they can have religious rights.

It's fascinating stuff. Stephanie, thank you so much for joining me, Dr. Stephanie Brown, who is a new generation thinker in residence with Woman Sal. We'll be hearing more from her throughout the year. So if you've been impacted by anything you've heard in this interview, you can seek help and resources on the BBC Action Line website. Thank you, Stephanie. Now, I spoke to you this morning at the beginning of the program about chores and whether you get your children to do chores at home.

Lots of you getting in touch. I'm a cleaner, says somebody here. I'm astonished. How many customers pay me to do their cleaning and ironing when they have teenage kids and a husband slash partner? Mom's working so she can pay me to wait on her kids. And that's from Kath. No chores, no teenage phone contact.

Get on a monthly rolling deal so you can cancel any time, says somebody. Another one here saying, I get my four-year-old to take her plate and cutlery from the table to the sink after meals. I want her to think about how things happen, not just walk away and magically that things are done for her around her. We try to make tidying up part of the time we have to play.

It doesn't have to be everything left perfectly, but everyone has to put away two or three things before we go upstairs for a bath. My one and a half-year-old son now wants to take his meal things to the sink. This is cute because he sees us doing it. My daughter has also started telling off my husband if he doesn't tidy up enough.

Well done, you. 84844, the lovely husky laugh you just heard in the background is my next guest. Well, Sophie Ellis Spexter. Morning, Sophie. Hello. I'll do your intro. Go on.

Sophie Ellis Spexter's Murder on the dance floor went viral on TikTok a couple of years ago after Emerald Fenel used it in a key scene in the film Saltburn. That resurgence, along with her popular kitchen discos that got a lot of us through lockdown, set the scene for her much-anticipated new album, Perry Menopop, which is released tomorrow and I'm thrilled to say, you are with me now. Welcome. Yeah, I'm really thrilled to be here.

I think it was about two hours ago that I found out there was no one coming to get me to take me to here. So there's been a bit of running, there's been a bus. I made some new friends. Yes. It's the way. And you've done it. So, you know, mission did it? Did you get on one of those bikes?

Did you get on a line bike? No, I had too much stuff with me. But the bus was cool. I helped some other people with their roots. Right, there's a headline. And then I ran the last bit. Sophie Alice Bexter gets the bus. Perry, men are pop.

Yeah. And congratulations. Clues in the name. Reclaiming a midlife moment. Celebrating it. I really like getting older. And happily, you and I are about the same age. So I'm hoping this would resonate a little bit.

But I think in a lot of ways I'm better at being in my 40s than I was at being in my 20s. And my relationship with music is as strong as ever, but also with all the people that surround me. My family, my friends, the people I work with, there's all these lovely foundations there. And it's allowed me to feel safe and still have lots of fun. So yeah, I felt pretty optimistic and uplifted by that when I was in the studio. And I fed all of that joy into the veins of Perimenopop. It is joyful. And to share it with you. Let's have a listen to the new single which is released today. This is Stay on Me. Look at it. Disco Queen. We've got us jigging in our seats. What's it about? So Stay On Me is actually about

I thought of Richard, my husband. We just had our 20th wedding anniversary. Congratulations. Thank you. And I thought about that nice feeling when you're out with someone and you know that you're going to go home with them and you feel kind of if you see anyone, you know, looking over at them, you're like, but they're coming home with me. And it's a nice feeling. So, yeah, that's all baked in there. It is a brilliant pop album. And that was just the single.

The whole album is brilliant. Ecstatic songs, really joyful. But you called it Perimenop. Was there any part of you that was like fearing, putting the word in the title? Well, I think it's kind of absolutely apt that peri menopopop, which is easily my most sort of bolshe-bolded album title,

has actually come at a time when I think you do start shedding that worry about what other people think a little bit. And I felt like it was so intrinsic to the songwriting. My perspective where I found myself that my age had to be woven in there somehow. And I was trying to think, I was actually like looking up sort of nicknames for middle-aged women, you know, like biddy. Or if I'd been Australian, it would have been she like 100%. But here we don't really have an equivalent that worked. And a girlfriend and I were songwriting and she said, oh, perimenop.

And it became our little joke. And then I texted her a while back and I was like, I'm actually going to do it. And it made me feel like, no, I don't need to pretend to be anything other than exactly who I am and where I'm at. So it sort of shed me of any of that. Also, lovely little word that I think is going to turn into a thing. Let's see. Let's see. Can we talk about the success of murder and the dance film?

100%. Whole new generation found it from Saltburn. And that moment brought you not just to a whole new generation, but a whole new market. America. I can't believe you'd never been to America. before. Yeah, the beginning of last year I'd never done so much as a radio interview in America. And then I found myself touring there, culminating in New Year's Eve on the Dick Clark show with the ball drop in Times Square and all the ticker tape. Just wild. But also such a

glorious example of how my relationship with music has been kept so alive because it still has the ability to surprise me, which keeps me on my toes. And also a glorious example of how your 40s can have a completely new moment. Exactly. We're so led to believe, like you said, your 20s and 30s were very different, but your 20s is what it's all about, and particularly in your industry.

Very much so. That was very much the rhetoric when I got started. And as I reached my late 20s, I could feel, yeah, the tide changing, and I felt like I was on borrowed time a little bit. And in some ways, that did me a lot of favours because I explored lots of other things. I've spent the last decade making more sort of singer-songwriter albums

that were, you know, I had the ability to explore lots of other styles of songwriting and I feel better for it but you're right, it's so nice to have such a great example of how wrong that rhetoric, that narrative was and also I just wanted to give that giddiness

back into the record. I wrote the album in amongst all of that headiness this adventure with an old friend murder on the dance floor so I just was feeling really happy. That first came out in 2001 my God that is so shocking when you kind of, it's one of those things that dates you.

Really? Was it really that long ago? And then I sing to crowds and I'm like, none of you were born then. But yeah, and it's a smash on social media. A friend of mine, his daughter was having a 60th birthday and all the girls were singing along to it. It was like joyful. But, you know, it's a social media rage. How do you deal with any sort of criticism that might be coming your way now?

Like it's a different world. I feel like, look, I started singing in the 90s. You had to have a little suit of arms. I was baked in the oven at a high temperature back then and that really, you know, the thing is about anybody critic. Firstly, as an artist, you're always your own best critic. I could write my own bad review when I was younger from every single thing I did.

I'd be doing it while I was on stage. And that is something that's really got quieter and quieter as I've got older and more experienced and trust in the process. So I think those things don't bother me. But also, if you're going to believe in the bad stuff, you have to also believe in the good. And I just choose to kind of stay in my own, or blissful ignorance with all of it really.

Joyful, joyful bubble. Yeah, plus it's that old Oscar Wild thing. It's better being talked about than not at all. And actually, for an artist, the bit when no one is interested, that is the bit that plays the hardest on your soul. Because music is dialogue. If you're putting things out there and no one's sending it back to you, the energy's just gone.

So all of it, all the, you know, the 16-year-olds at the party, they're putting fresh energy into something and they own a part of it. It's interesting because when I was thinking about that question, I thought, you know, this is Sophie Ellis Bexter, who was making music in the 90s and the early 2000s and that was not a pleasant place for women in the music industry

so when you were saying explain more about what that experience was like and how it's sort of your shoulders are broader and maybe your resilience is quite strong. Yeah and I think particularly in the 90s it was all about being cool, being credible you weren't supposed to be smiley you weren't even really supposed to show

you're having that much fun actually and I think I just felt like it was a bit sink or swim really and some of the questions I was asked in some of the ways I was interviewed and the experiences I had. I think I was talking to someone about the other day and they were quite shocked by some of the things I'd experienced and questions I'd been asked when I was a teenager. Go on.

I don't know, about my favourite sexual position. I did an interview once where in the paper they'd taken upskirt photographs of me as I was talking and put them in the broadsheets. You know, things that now aren't even legal. But it's led to resilience. And one thing, if I've got any talent, it's actually knowing the good people.

And I've really stuck with this amazing community of people who are all the aunts and uncles of murder on the dance floor, that era, still work with me now. And that, I mean, doesn't it, for everybody, your group of friends, they reflect you back at yourself and you think, these are good people to be around. So I'm just going to keep my counsel with them. And during lockdown, you became our good person to be around

because of your joyful kitchen discos. You let us into your world in that incredible, disco casso and we saw a snippet of your life you've just mentioned

you know 20 years married congratulations five children five boys Sophie it has never seemed quite as many

children as it did during lockdown honestly it could have been 25 but yeah there we were and actually

the community that came out the kitchen discos for Richard and I made all the difference it was provided such tonic

and again I think it actually made me respect pop music that bit more because sometimes when the world is heavy you can think oh am i silly for the fact that a good song can make me feel better but we need

it don't we we're pack animals we like getting together putting our hands in the air and believing everything will get better and dancing you know you and i have very much aligned on i know we've been asking the audience about chores um you know how do you divvy them up because your your children range from 21 to 6 that's right so who how how have you brought them up to what's the what's the chore situation. Well, I think her name was, was it Kath, the cleaner who said I get paid to do the things the teenagers should do. That made me feel terrible. I was like, wow, yes, it's true. But then the lady that said about her children taking their plates to the sink and just having a general kind of respect for the little microsystem they're part of, that's more our style. And do you think about, I know, we're running out of time, but very quickly, you've got five boys. This is Woman's Hour, you know, bringing up boys in the modern age. They're five feminists. They don't even question it. They're good people. And we have fascinating, conversations about it and actually my eldest was the biggest champion of what peri menopop is about. I had to ask him first and he was like, go for it. That's what we like to do. It's been wonderful having you in. Thank you so much. Sophia Lus Bexter and Peri Menopopop is

released tomorrow. Single is out now. Thank you very much and thanks to all of you for getting in touch with your messages. I'm going to end with one of them as a single parent of two boys. I taught them age 10 how the washing machine works and how to hang out their clothes and left them to do it. Also showed them the iron, but that fell on deaf ears. You can't have it all. Join me tomorrow. One of TV's most popular presenters will be in the hot seat, DeVina McCall. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time.

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