Woman's Hour - 11/12/2025

Episode Date: December 12, 2025

Women's voices and women's lives - topical conversations to inform, challenge and inspire.

Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning, welcome to the programme. A new BBC report has been looking into the uses of artificial intelligence in schools, from automated marking to lesson plans and even deep fake teachers. So how can AI be used in the classroom? We'll be discussing the findings of the report. And of course, if you have experience of this, either as a teacher, parent or student, get in touch and share your thoughts.

the text number 84844. Maria Carina Machado, Venezuela's most prominent opposition leader, has been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. She's been living in hiding in Venezuela, and her daughter, Anna Karina Sosa Machado, collected the award on her behalf. However, Maria made a surprise appearance in Oslo in the middle of the night.

The first time she's been seen in publics since January, we'll be finding out more about Maria Machado. In 2023, Caitlin Lawrence was just 22 years old when she collapsed whilst playing netball for the then Super League side, Surrey Storm. She was eventually diagnosed with a genetic heart condition she never knew she had. She's now campaigning for cardiac screening. Caitlin will be here. As will Gabby Logan to tell us about this year's sports personality of the year. You just heard the list there in the bulletin.

It's been a great year for women's sport. been a standout moment that's inspired you to maybe get out there to try something new and get sporty. Have you picked up where you left off in your teens? Tennis or netball? Have your daughters started to kick around a football or pick up a cricket bat or chuck a rugby ball about? Get in touch and tell me if you have been inspired to play sport this year in the usual way. The text number 84844, you can email the program by going to our website. You can WhatsApp me on 0300-100-444. And if you'd like to follow us on social, social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. You never know. Your stories might inspire other people this

morning. Now, this is the sound that greeted Venezuelan politician and Nobel Peace Prize laureate Maria Karina Machado on a hotel balcony in Norway at midnight last night. This was the first time that Machado had been seen in public since January after being forced into hiding. She also gave an exclusive interview to BBC News and spoke about the significance of this moment. I'm here because many men and women risked their lives. in order for me to arrive in Oslo. I came here on behalf of them and the millions of anonymous Venezuelan heroes

to receive the prize and to take it back to them because it's theirs. So who is Maria Karina Machado? Well, earlier I spoke to Norberto Paredes, who's a journalist with BBC Mundo, the BBC's News Service for the Spanish-speaking world. I started by asking him about the events of last. night and how much of a surprise her appearance was in Oslo?

Yes, it was very dramatic, you know, because she was expected to give a press conference yesterday, the day before yesterday actually, she didn't make it, they postponed it, and then they said she would be in Oslo yesterday morning, and then she said she wasn't, and then she finally appeared, made an appearance very late at night. We saw, How she came out in the hotel balcony and Venezuelan people were outside waiting for her singing the national anthem. Venezuela people are very patriotic. So this is singing the Venezuelan anthem and seeing her leader there, their leader there is, it was very emotive for many Venezuelans. Let's understand everything about this woman.

First of all, why is she in hiding? Well, she's been the leader of the opposition for many years. She's been in the public eye for more than two decades. She started very young as a politician. And what was interesting is that this woman was not always that popular. She was not always that liked by the opposition. She was just a secondary leader who was people. The government said often that she was a radical.

She was from the far left, from the far right, sorry. And many people believe this narrative. She only came into prominence a few years ago when Juan Guaido, the former presidential candidate, left the country. The opposition didn't have any more leaders. And she came, she was the only, she's now the only opposition leader who is standing still fighting the Maduro's government. So she's a very charismatic leader. When I met her in Caracas last year, I followed her around the streets in Caracas and she, you should have seen how people love her. People were throwing her flowers.

Why is that? Because she's managed, they see Maria Coria Machado as a woman who has managed to unite an opposition and a country in a country where this seemed impossible just two years ago. People didn't believe in the electoral system. People didn't believe in going to vote. People did not want to vote anymore because, you know, many elections previously have been, there have been accusations that they have been rigged by the government. And people didn't believe in that anymore.

And she managed to unite the people and say, okay, you know, let's do this one last time. And people did it. And we saw us, you know, according to the data-related by the opposition. And she, her candidate, won the election by a landslide. So she's hope for people? Yes.

However, she has been in hiding. Why? Because she has been harassed for a very long time. She was barred from the election, from running to the election last year. And she had to go into hiding in August because right after the election, there were many protests around Venezuela where many people died. and there was a crackdown on the opposition, and so many opposition leaders. So the opposition candidate had to leave to Spain, and she had to go into hiding.

So extraordinary that she made it to Norway? Yes. We don't know how she managed to do that because she's being like the government has been looking for her for a very long time for over a year now. And it was reported that she had to take a vote. to Kurasau and then a private plane. But, you know, what's going to be even more difficult is to go back to Venezuela. Is she going to go back? She said she would. And she knows that she has to go back

because that's the only way she can continue her fight for these people who will live in another Venezuela, better Venezuela, without Maduro in power. Tell us about Machado's early life. Where was she born? What's her family background? So she was born in Caracas. she comes from a very prominent wealthy family in Venezuela and this was considered by many

especially by the government as a way of saying that she could never lead Venezuela because she could not relate to Venezuelan people's problems you know she's never struggled with money she's never had to go you know has struggled to be. by medicines as many Venezuelans, millions of Venezuela as now. So many people believed that narrative at the beginning. That's why she was not, people thought that she couldn't connect with people. Sure. But she's managed to change that.

How did she become involved in politics? Where did that spark come from? It was in 2002 when she created a movement that was called Sumate. that is it was an NGO that advocates for free and fair elections because even back then there were accusations that the electoral system in Venezuela was starting to be controversial, you know? And she created this movement

and then later when she was around 35 she created her own political party. It was a very minor political party. party. It was not the main political party in Venezuela. She didn't gather that many votes back in the day that was 15 years ago. But that has changed now, as you can see. So what are her political views? Do you know, she was accused for being far right. But, you know, in Venezuela, Venezuela is a very leftist country. Venezuela is a very leftist country. Venezuela is a country where people believe in social, you know, help and free universities and free hospitals for everyone.

She does not want to change that. So it's hard to believe the narrative told by the government that she's from the far right. But in Venezuela, now she doesn't really talk about what her political beliefs are because, you know, people, just want to get rid of Maduro, the opposition people. She's talked about making Venezuela the hub, the energy hub of the Americas, and that's pretty much it. President Trump has made clear his opposition to Nicholas Maduro. Last night, the US seized an oil tanker off the coast of Venezuela. Do we know what Machado's views are on this?

Well, Machado is a person who knows that she needs. Trump's help. I interviewed her right after it was announced that she was winning the prize, and she said two very interesting things. The first one is that she dedicated this prize to Trump, and she said that she basically said that Trump deserved a Nobel Prize as well because he's done so much for peace around the world, which is very controversial. That's a very controversial opinion, and it draws some criticism.

And the second thing she said is that she called. for a liberation of Venezuela because she argues that Venezuela has been already invaded by the Iranians, the Russians, the Cubans and Hezbollah. It has been reported that the Venezuelan government has links with Hezbollah. So she calls for a liberation. Many people interpret this as an invasion, but she has been always very careful not to use that words. And the awarding of the Peace Prize was controversial too, wasn't it?

What was some of the concerns? Well, people don't see her as a pacifist. She's had to moderate her speech now because of this prize. But she has always called for foreign intervention because she tried to go to the elections. And there have been many accusations that the elections have been rigged. She has tried to boycott. but we call it an election telling people not to vote

because it was not worth voting in a system that was allegedly rigged. So she strives many ways to topple Maduro. And this is seen by her last hope, her last chance. How significant is it for her to win this prize and to be seen in public for the first time? Yes, it is very significant and it's very significant for the Venezuelan people.

people as well. They were wondering yesterday, where is she? People were scared that she might have been captured by the government and hurt. We had not from her at all for more than 24 hours. What do you think comes next for her? That's a very good question, you know. She, as she said, she needs to go back to Venezuela. If she wants to continue this fight, she cannot do it from exile. We've seen examples how that has not worked with previous opposition leaders. So, yes, she will try to go back to Venezuela and probably the government will be waiting for her. Fascinating insight from the BBC's Noberto Paredes there. And you can watch the full interview with Maria Karina Machado on the BBC News website.

Now, in 2023, Caitlin Lawrence was just 22 years old when she collapsed, whilst playing netball for the then Super League side, Surrey Storm, she was eventually diagnosed with arrhythmogenic cardiomyopathy, a genetic condition she never knew she had. She was told by doctors that she could no longer play professional netball but was determined for other players to not go through the same experience. She's since campaigned successfully to get cardiac screening introduced into the netball Super League from next year.

Caitlin, welcome to Women's Hour. How does it feel hearing me read that out loud? Thank you so much for having me. I think it's such a relief to know that if there's one thing that can come out of this, it's that other women and then men as well as we go into mixed and men's netball is that they can be screened. It's the easiest screen in the world with an ECG and that they don't have to go through what I went through hopefully.

How are you now? I'm well. I'm good. I've been very lucky. All my medical tests recently have come back clear. And yeah, I'm just prepping a lot of exams at the moment. So a little stressed. Law exams. Yeah, law exams.

So very stressful exams. And we don't want you to be stressed, though. That's not what we want. Let's hear your full story. I'm going to start right at the beginning. When did you first get interested in Netball? I was at primary school. It was about 10 years old.

So a little bit later than probably what girls do now. And I think I just took to the court and I absolutely loved it. From the beginning, I wanted to be a goal attack. I wanted the attention of scoring, being able to get it in. So I think for me, I just, I love team sport. I've been sporty since I was really, really young, whether I was doing athletics, gymnastics, netball, absolutely everything under the sun.

So I just absolutely loved it. I am going to share with everybody. We've got Gabby Logan sitting in the studio with us here because we are going to talk about sports personality of the year just because she's looking on at you, smiling at your story because there's parallels already. When did you realise you were really good? I'm not sure I ever particularly realised but I think honestly not until I was probably about 18 or 19 and I kind of broke into the Scotland squad which is a little bit later but I'd always known for me Scotland all my family are up there I don't sound very Scottish yeah you grew up in Guilford for me Scotland is home all my family are up there all the girls are up there that I play netball with so I think when I went up there and actually realised it

had a chance to play an incredible level and when I was at University of Exeter who really were able to push me with such an incredible program as well. So then let's go back to that day in 2023. You were playing for your team, Surry Storm, in the netball Super League. What happened? I was warming up. It was just any other day up in, it was up in Oldham. So pretty far away from home. my family weren't there. And I actually don't remember it. This is just from video and from what my friends have told me, but I just collapsed.

I didn't feel anything. I'd felt fine all day. Photos of us getting coffee in the morning. Absolutely don't remember it. And then the next thing I know is that I'm in an ambulance with people telling me that I had collapsed. I had been unconscious for six minutes and that I was lucky to be alive. So you woke up in the ambulance,

taken to hospital what did what did they find at the time they didn't really know anything um they thought maybe i could just be dehydrated i tried to assure them i drank a lot of water but there was no reason to believe it was a heart condition at the time they had done some bloods i had a slightly odd cg but my echo was absolutely fine um so there was no reason to believe it was anything they told me you know i very much wanted to go home i was four hours away from home so they said you've got to go to hospital when you get back home but for the first 48 hours I then I felt absolutely fine after the initial night it felt a little bit nauseous and then I woke up the next day and just wanted to get on with my day there was no lasting symptoms so you carried on playing so I wasn't allowed to

play for the first month or so they wanted to know what was wrong and I was really lucky I had some incredible cardiologists um they thought it there might be something to do with my heart so when I went back down south. They wanted to check it. I had an MRI and they said for the moment you can't play, you had myocarditis, which is scarring on the heart. But they didn't know why. They just thought this can happen when you're playing elite sport. There's no reason that it is anything else. So I was allowed to do a very gradual return to play, which I was very lucky Surrey Storm, the doctors, the physios, all the medical staff there were incredible, making sure that I was very comfortable and did a very gradual return to play over about three or four months.

And how's your mind at this stage? How are you feeling about what's happened to you and what you're going through? I think at the time I didn't really think anything of it because I didn't know that it was what it ended up being. I just thought, you know, some people can just faint or collapse. Maybe it was, maybe I was dehydrated and I needed to drink more. I had no family history, so there was no reason to believe it was anything else. But then last, summer, you'd been playing a match when you got a call from the hospital. What happened? So I was playing for London Pulse, so I was trialling for their next-gen team, which is just

the one below Super League. And it was a pretty hot day, so all of us felt quite ill. I thought I'd heat stroke. And then I got a call two days later, because I just had a small recorder in my heart that was checking things to tell me that I had had a heart arrhythmia of 294 beats per minute for 11 seconds. Put that into context for us. Your maximum heart rate is 220 minus your age.

So at the time mine was, should have been about 198. So it's almost 100 beats per minute over that, which... Scary. Yeah, and I didn't feel it. What did the doctors say about that? How dangerous was that? I should not be here today is what I was told. That is now two separate incidences where I was told that I should no longer be here.

which is obviously the worst thing you can possibly hear. Yeah. So what was the diagnosis? So at that moment I was then diagnosed with arrhythmogenic cardiomyphopathy, which is a genetic condition. But at the time, we didn't know that we had any family history of it because nobody has ever presented with it because it's often due to the strain of elite sport.

So there is a... Because of the training, the levels of training. So because of the levels of training, it's more likely to present. Right. So what did that mean for your netball career? I was told that I would never play netball again. I would never play elite netball again. And my aim was, I was in the Scotland senior squad.

My aim was the 2006 Commonwealth Games, which are home games, 2007 World Cup and that was taken away immediately. How devastating was that to hear that news? It was, well, it's the worst news you can, as an athlete that you can possibly hear. It's that, well, on Sunday I was playing extremely high-level netball and by the Wednesday I would never play any form of that level again. You've described it as like grief. How did you cope with it? How did you deal with it?

I think I didn't cope very well at the beginning. There was a lot of denial. I was about to start a new job. There was a lot of reason to put my focus into that and I just didn't want to, I couldn't look at netball, I couldn't watch it. I didn't want to be around any of it at all. And I think the grief in that sense was the start of it,

was denial and anger as well because in that moment you think, why is it me? I was so healthy. I had done everything that I could to make sure I was healthy and at the gym and running to make sure that I could be the best possible athlete and yet it was something that was completely out of my control

and it just took it away from me in an instant. So what support did you have around you? I was very lucky with my family and friends. I had some incredible options with therapy both from the NHS and also the netball players association had offered me some. How important was that? It was a lifeline.

to know that I could talk to people in a different way where I wasn't just talking about Netball but actually talking about how your life has changed because for me, Netball was my life but they could take it from a different context and actually understand how you can reshape your life and how you can have a new identity. And you mentioned it, but you were fitted with a cardiovert,

defibrillator? Explain what that does. Explain what that is. So, yeah, so I'm, now implanted with a, known as an ICD, just a really small defibrillator. The medicine is incredible. I do not understand it at all. But it gives me that support that if another arrhythmia occurs,

if anything happens, I can be immediately shocked and my heart shocked back into a normal rhythm. You can't play anymore, but competitively, but you decided to channel all that energy into campaigning. So tell me when you decided that that was going to be your next passion, your next mission? I think maybe when I was still sitting in the hospital bed, if I'm being honest, I think hearing that news and knowing that I could never play again at that level, but it is such a small and non-invasive procedure to check whether you have a heart condition.

And I was very lucky to then find cardiac risk in the young and knowing that they do ECGs, both for elite athletes and also for kind of anyone in the public. And I was immediately, I thought England netball, they already screen their senior players, but we need to be screening the Netball Super League as well because now it's professional. And we focus so much on ACLs and ankles,

which is so important and always talked about because there is an ACL crisis in particular, but your heart muscle is the most important muscle in your body. it's keeping you alive. So why aren't we testing it? I mentioned that we're joined in the studio by presenter Gabby Logan, who is here to tell us about sports personality of the year. But Gabby, you've been listening to Caitlin's story.

And this sadly happened, it's very close to home for you because this happened to your younger brother when he was 15. Yeah. What do you make of Caitlin's story? He didn't have an outcome like Caitlin because he died almost instantly. He had a hypertropic cardiomyopathy and was playing in the garden actually but he was a high-level sportsperson

he'd been signed for Leeds United he was about two months away from starting his professional football career and one of the things that we couldn't relieve that somebody could get to that level of sport because he was about to sign for the top Leeds would won the league that year they were the top club in the country and he wasn't screened

and we found out that in Italy young players in Syria were screened and this wasn't something that was that unusual I mean this is 30 years ago so times have changed And so much so that my son who now plays professional rugby was screened when he was in an academy at 16. And there was a little red flag with him

because when he wrote on his form, yes, there's been an incidence of a heart condition of the family. They took his case a little bit more seriously. But it was reassuring to know that across other sports protocol had changed because obviously Daniel at 15 years old had that incredible career ahead of him. And there's so much of your story, Caitlin, that was bringing me on the edge.

But it was the moment you said, the thing I loved had gone. Sorry. I feel like I've sat in this chair and done this a few times I've cried in front of you. I'm so sorry. You don't have to apologise. There are so many parallels. You know, your passion for Scotland, which is aligned to the sportsmen in my family, my son and husband. And, you know, I did a law degree. And you played their ball?

Yeah. I feel like we have a lot in common and we've only met today. How, well, this is great. I'm glad. The two of you in the studio together and we've brought the two of you. together. So how important is the work that Caitlin's doing? Oh, amazing. Because like she says, you know, there is a lot of focus in women's sport in football as well at the moment on ACLs, which are very important and they affect women's careers. But this is a very simple, non-invasive

test. And it might bring some heartbreaking news, but it will be very, very few who have that. But my God, if you save a life and you save a future and coming to terms with the end of a sporting career is an awful thing. I went through it myself when I finished gymnastics. It's a horrible thing because you think nothing in life is going to give you that same buzz and passion. It's going to happen to a sportsperson, whatever stage you get to, that moment will come. I feel like you should be talking to each other.

Yeah, and for Caitlin, that has come a lot sooner than, you know, you wanted it to. But you will do, you've already done something incredible. And I feel like you're going to do more incredible things. I completely agree with you. Have you been back on a netball court? In a social aspect. How was that? How did it feel?

I didn't enjoy it. I think I got back on the netball court and still mentally, mentally an injury is far more difficult. You can be physically ready, but I think mentally you won't always be ready and I just decided that it wasn't for me anymore. But it gave me that opportunity

to feel like I had decided to step away and objectively I know it wasn't, but it was really nice to be able to step on the netball court and decide that that was my name. last time. Well, give yourself a bit of grace. You're doing a huge amount and you've also got these law exams to focus on, which you want to wish you best of luck in. Thank you so much. Thank you for coming in to speak to us, Caitlin Lawrence. Thank you, Caitlin. Now, as you've, as the years draws to a close, it's the perfect moment to look back on what has been a landmark year for

women's sports. From the UEFA women's euros to the rugby world cup, record breaking attendances and soaring TV audiences, female athletes have been firmly in the spotlight. One person who's been watching all of this unfold, you've just been hearing from it, is Gabby Logan. She's part of the all-female presenting team for sports personality of the year, which returns in just a week. Gabby's had a standout year herself, stepping into one of football's most iconic roles as a new presenter on match of the day. Congratulations on that, Gabby. Thank you so much. Thank you.

What a year of women's sport. I have to say we called it in January. on Woman's Hour. What's it been like for you? But they both delivered, didn't they? And in different circumstances, we're talking about the lionesses, obviously, who went first and then the Red Roses. And the Lionesses went into that tournament. Yeah, they were the holders, obviously, from 2022 when the tournament was here. But they weren't really the favourites because they'd had a bit of a bumpy ride going into it. They weren't winning in the same way that they had been. They were

supreme going into 2022. And they really did manage to clutch victory from the jaws of defeat a few times in that tournament. So they gave us some ups and downs and some drama and cross the line beautifully and brilliantly and they are an incredible group. But the roses were the favourites and they had been on this incredible winning run since the last World Cup. And yet that day, that final, I felt the jeopardy was even high because suddenly you think this team, they've got everything to lose here. They're in a home stadium, a record attendance at Twickenham. And it felt like if you don't get over the line, you know, this could affect the future of women's rugby. Crush the sort of

because there was so much investment in them that would other unions then turn around and say well it's not worth investing because look they didn't get over the line because there's this feeling well England have got a lot of investment they have to deliver and that brings its own pressure and the lionesses obviously have experienced those women have experienced professional

football for a lot longer and their achievement was incredible but in a slightly different way I feel like my emotions on both days were very different and equally as enjoyable and the added pressure that's you know because it's record attendance at Twickenham for the very first time. They're

the pioneering team. So all eyes on them. Something else I noticed this time was that there was much less comparison. I'm talking about football here between them, the lionesses and the men's England team. Did you notice that? Yeah, and it's been said a few times that, of course, you can't

compare them because the men are not very close to winning back to back euros. I'm being facetious, but I think because of that professionalism, that I'm talking about. And we've seen attendances go up in the WSL since 2022. We've seen Arsenal, for example, who have been at the vanguard and are pioneers in so many ways the women's team playing at the men's stadium a lot more often than any

other team. And the attendants is there are very, very impressive. Attendances across the board and grassroots as well has, you know, the kind of waiting lists almost in village women's football teams, which is fantastic, facilities across the country, now recognising that you need to offer women something. slightly different and making it more attractive for young girls to start playing and both sports will see

an uptake and an increased uptake in that and rugby in particular you know I've heard quite a few stories after the World Cup of people telling me that their young daughters wanted to go because rugby looks like everybody you know there's a very different kind of physical kind of profile if you like and there is something for everybody there you know and I think that's very appealing to a lot of young girls that there isn't just a

one size fits all absolutely and it's about strength and it's about the power of what you can do with your body. And they look like they're having an amazing time which is very very attractive and Caitlin's nodding you know that and I think the men's game we've seen this year a young player called Henry Pollock kind of embrace fun and which is very unusual for the

men's game and Ellie Kill Dunn who's on the list as short list for Spotty you know she said she sees a lot of herself or Henry see in the way the roses react because they've just been having fun for a long time you know unashamedly enjoying their sport and isn't that what we want you know we all start sport kids for fun. That's why

you start and eventually it becomes a bit more serious but you've got to see the joy. Yeah, you can't lose the joy. So let's turn to sports personality of the year, the award. It takes place a week today. You're presenting alongside Claire Boulding and Alex Scott, what a lineup. What can people expect? Well, this year the six nominees have been announced

today. Should we just say the six now? Yeah, go for it. I've already mentioned Ellie when we've got two of the lionesses in Hannah Hampton and Chloe Kelly. Lando Norris got over the line at the weekend, got himself in. Rory McElroy. who's told us already that he's going to be there on the night because there's always a bit of a battle about who's going to be there

and Luke Littler for the second year running. So that's the six. And for the first time, on the night, three will be culled halfway through the evening. So the vote will be open, as it always is. And you have to register on the BBC Sport website and app before hand to vote. And then we will find out who the final three are

and you have to kind of keep voting for them. So I think that will add a little bit of jeopardy on the night. And of course, we've got the young sportsperson of the year. We've got the international, the team of the year. And, you know, you can start voting for a team of the year now as well. So, you know, get yourself on there. But I think there'll be, there's a few things. I went through the running order yesterday, had a meeting about it.

And it feels like there's a couple of things that are going to be very crowd-pleasing. And hopefully the audience at home will enjoy as well. She's teasing us, teasing us. Last four years in a row, a woman has lifted the trophy. Mark changed from previous decades. What does that say about how far women's sports come? Well, I think it says it's come a long way because I think it was, I was trying to remember it was about 12 to 15 years ago.

some time where there was no women on the list and there was a bit of outrage about that and I think they realised that we had to look better. We have to reflect what's going on. But that's also aligned with genuine increase in performance. You can't just put a woman on the list because you know, you're box sticking. There has to be a reason for a woman to be there. And those three women who are there this year are there because of truly great global performances. And that has come through awareness. It's come through visibility. It's come through investment. You know, over the last decade, 20 years in football, there's been so much more investment in the sport and in rugby, as I've just mentioned before as well. Last year, Keely Hodgkinson won athletics has always

been a sport that's featured on the list. But those women's team sports, I think, is where we're seeing the, we're kind of reaping the benefits of investment. Does it reflect sporting achievement or is it personality? It is sporting achievement. And obviously those personalities then, their job is on the night, I guess, to connect with people. And we hope that their films that we've already done will give people an insight into them but also the interviews we take great responsibility Claire Alex and I on the night you know

Claire and I are quite competitive you might have guessed and so we we kind of nudged each other well Claire and I was nudged each other when I guess because we've been doing it longer we've been doing it you know for a while and if one of our interviewees has made it into the top three she'll kind of go ching I got a gold and so we like to kind of amplify

and help them because you want them to give the best themselves on the night you know they're that you have these really supremely confident sports people who can often on the night be shaking with nerves because that's not their natural arena. You know, they're fine when they put their kit on and they cross the line. But put them in a studio with hundreds of people and bright lights and lots of music and it's a very different environment. And all glammed up, not in their I love it. I love that when I see like, you know, whether it's obviously the Commonwealth Games, we had the whole of the England netball team there. The last time that the England rugby team

were nominated for a team of the year, the women, all dressed up. And I'm used to seeing them all looking muddy and in shorts. I have to take a moment to go, oh gosh, is that? Is that her? You know, is that? So it's, yeah, it's a brilliant chance to celebrate their achievements and a fantastic year of sport because I mentioned obviously there are three men on the list as well. And, you know, they have done groundbreaking global. You know, I think everybody on that list is really globally well known. And you mentioned there your co-presenters, Claire and Alex, all three of you have had quite a big year. Claire on traitors, Alex in the jungle. You taking over at match of the day. How are you finding the role?

Yeah, it's been really great. I do with alongside Kelly Cates and Mark Chapman and the other two presenters. We don't do it on the same day. We obviously alternate in terms of shows. I've loved it. Yeah, I can't believe we're almost half a season through already. It's gone so quickly and I'm really enjoying it and feel very comfortable in that environment. I'm stepping into an institution.

We know that you are a brilliant. Oh, I still tingle when the music plays. Yeah, every time. And it is the music for all BBC football shows. So for years I've been hearing it. But sitting in that chair and hearing it is a different thing. And knowing the people who've gone before you, but also what, it means to people that show. You know, I've had so many people come up to me over the last

couple of months saying, I hope you take this right way. I wasn't sure, but I'm at, I'm, it's actually all right. Well, that's an interesting thing for people to say. Do you think audiences care? I mean, back-handed compliment. Yeah, exactly. Do you think they take note of the gender balance? I think they are less likely, I think they're less likely to be aware of the fact that Kelly presents loads of live football on Sky. I've been doing football for almost three decades. So they're used to us being around that environment. I think I hope that that they feel comfortable that we've been doing this for a long time. And it's, I think it's less, less obvious if you, if you're like now than it maybe was when I first started out. Also, what a lovely moment for you with all your

sporting history, with football connection, with your family to be taking on that role. What's it feel like? Yeah, it is just, because I grew up, you know, Saturday nights in our house when I was a child, you don't forget, this was a time when you couldn't just turn on any channel showing live sport. So Saturday night match the day was when you'd see football and so it was always on and that music was the background to my childhood you know my dad was obviously either watching himself

having played that day or invested in it because he was due to be playing a team and so it feels like it's something that's been there forever for me and to be part of it is fantastic and we've got some amazing producers and you know what's amazing as well Anita now I've got like Sunday I did match of the day with a female

editor and you know female directors so it's not just in front of the screen. There's so many opportunities behind the scenes as well on match of the day and BBC sport generally, but football is an area where you've really noticed that. Because of course, Olympic sport, you tend to get more of a mix, if you like, because of the sports that you see. But with football, it's been a noticeable shift over the last 10 or 15 years. Fantastic. Gavi Logan, thank you so much. Thank you so much. It's been so brilliant to be on with. And you two have connected now, so you can stay in touch. And well done you. It's been a

big year for you. Yes. Well, there might be something very big happening this evening. final race across the world. We'll be watching. I say nothing. Thank you, Caitlin once again. Thank you, Gabby. And sports personality of the year 2025 will take place on the 18th of December and we'll broadcast live on BBC One and IPlayer and you can vote on the BBC Sport website. Now, on Tuesday, Radio 4 will devote the day to celebrating the 250th anniversary of the birth of one of Britain's best loved women writers, Jane Austen. Woman's Hour kicks off proceedings with a program about the world Jane Austen and her characters inhabited and discusses the impact she still has on our lives today.

So we want to hear from you. What does Jane Austen mean to you? Which books are your favourites? Do you spend your weekends re-watching some of the incredible adaptations of her novels? Did any of her heroines change your life? Does her extraordinary wisdom still guide you today? Tell us about your Austin moments. Get in touch in the usual way.

The text number 84844, you can also contact us via social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. And if you want to email us, then go to our website. Now, yesterday we heard the very sad news about author Sophie Kinsella, who's died at the age of 55. Her real name was Madeleine Wickham, and she wrote more than 30 books for adults, children and teenagers, which sold more than 50 million copies in more than 60 countries

and have been translated into more than 40 languages. She joined Nula in October 2024 when she spoke about her last novel, What Does It Feel Like? And how her personal experience has heavily influenced the novel. The protagonist had brain cancer, a hugely supportive husband and five children exactly like Sophie. Well, I was with Nula yesterday when we heard of Sophie's death. And Nula told me it was one of her most memorable interviews, not least because of Sophie's good job.

humour, zest for life and plan of living in the moment. She described how her character in the novel was enjoying everyday elevations, what she called the normal plus. Yes, that's very much from real life. So, I mean, the narrative is you're diagnosed with a terrible disease and you put on your Lycra and you climb Everest or you can go and meet that movie star that you'd always wanted to meet or you, whatever it is you do, you know, you go on holiday to the

Galapagos Islands. There's this sort of narrative that you're going to do extraordinary outlandish things to celebrate life, to create memories. And anyway, I'm afraid that that narrative didn't speak to me. I just kept thinking, well, do I want to do this? Not really. Do I want to swim with the dolphins? Not really. And I realized that what I'm valuing more and more is just normal life. And the normal plus comes about when you just add a little treat. You just give yourself a little treat and it turns a normal experience into a just a slightly more fun experience. And I should probably say as well about the book, Surreal is a good word because you're kind of going through this dreamlike, nightmarish at times, a situation. But then there are

these moments of pure joy. One, your wonderful husband, who is by your side. And also, maybe this is normal plus as well, a game of scrabble with the children that. Eve uses to introduce normality, but also talk about what may or may not happen. Yes. That, again, I have to say is from real life. So we had to tell our children. We had to choose a good time when we had a lot of days free to process the news. I should say they're between 12 and 28. Yes, 12 and 28. Five of them. People kept saying that to me in the hospital. Five. Five. That is. And we wanted this to be, you know, dialed down in terms of drama.

We wanted it to feel like a normal family conversation. Like this is just another challenge. We all have challenges in our life. This is bigger than some of them, but we're going to deal with it in the same way that we do. And we told them in the most gentle way that we could, you know, not being deceitful but not over-dramatizing it. And then we played Scrabble.

And it was the best thing to do because everyone could kind of talk about the scrabble but talk about the news and we blended it all together. And it was the best way, I think, for us as a family to process it. And being together, but talking about being told this terrible truth, I guess,

Nick in the book, Eve's husband, has that job but has to tell Eve again and again because of short-term memory loss. Yes, yes, and this was us. So I would forget. I would wake up every day and I'd forget. I'd forget who the nurses were. I would forget why I'm in hospital. And I had been told that I had cancer and then I would forget.

And my husband had to tell me again. And then you would have to go through all those emotions again of hearing that news. Yeah. And what about him? I think it was really hard for him. Really hard. He showed his love for me at that time more than he ever has because he would just patiently tell me again and tell me again

and wait for me to react. And I don't know how we got through it, but we did just with love. It, I thought, when I finished the book, I was like, that is a love story. It is a love story. It is. It is. I mean, we have had a steadfast love throughout this whole experience and it has brought us together. And, you know, it's not a depressing book.

No. It's hopefully funny in places and optimistic and that reflects what life has been like for me. I haven't just woken up every day and burst into tears. I've laughed. I've found joy. I've enjoyed all the things, the normal plus. Normal plus.

I love it. That's not a new watchword. I enjoy life and I'm determined to enjoy life for as long as I can. What do you want people to understand from the book? I felt I understood somewhat. as an observer, what you and your family have been going through in some small part by reading the book. But I'm wondering what your motivation was in writing it.

Well, what I find interesting is that if you had asked me before this happened, you know, you're going to be diagnosed with incurable brain cancer. How are you going to react? I would have predicted that I would collapse on the floor a puddle, a weeping mess, and be unable to cope. And I think a lot of people feel that. people get very worried about their health. They get health anxiety. They go for scans. They don't need. They catastrophes about what it would be like. And I'm here to say that you can have that terrible diagnosis. You can have the bad news and the scan and the doctor's room and the whole story. But you can still lead your life. You can enjoy life. You can find pleasure in day-to-day activities and the love of your family. And you don't have to collapse. And it may not be as bad. as you thought.

And that's what my experience has been. And I just hope people can read it and enjoy it and find hope and laughter amid the bad news. Very moving to hear that clip of Sophie Kinsella, whose death was announced yesterday. And you can listen to the full interview on BBC Sounds. It's The Woman's Hour episode from the 8th of October 2024. I just want to read a couple of your messages coming in about playing sport.

I'm Lucy J. Morgan, a professional musician and member of Dex's Midnight Runner. Hello, Lucy. This time last year, I decided to investigate the world of pool, having been obsessed by it at an early age. This year, I play County League, and I'm currently ranked 39th in Wales and aiming to play for Wales. There you go. Never too late. I'm 51 and have just started to learn to windsurf. I had a go on holiday in the past and regretted never continuing. Of course, my kids are better than me, but it's so exhilarating. I love it. Brilliant. Good for you. I'm from Lucy saying, A missed story has been of Alicia Palmowski from Glossop coming from a normal family background. She won on her Formula One Academy or Women's Series debut in China. She's an inspiration for us all and one to watch for the future. Thank you, Lucy, for bringing her name to Woman's Hour. Now, as the autumn term comes to an end, many teachers will be looking forward to a couple of weeks off school or dreaded, dreading the pile of admin and marking that awaits them over the Christmas holidays.

But there may be a solution. A new BBC report has been looking into the use of artificial intelligence or AI in schools from automated marking to lesson plans and even deep fake teachers. So how can AI be used in the classroom and what are the concerns? While joining me to discuss this are journalist Haley Clark who wrote the report and Shane Ayersdern, CEO of the Great Schools Trust, which runs a number of schools across northwest England and has been putting some of these AI tools into practice. Shane, Haley, welcome to Women's Hour.

Haley, I'm going to come to you first. You used to be a teacher, and you've been looking into the teaching workload. Give us a sense, before we look at what the report found, what it's like to be a teacher at the moment? What are the pressures? Well, I don't think it's any secret that it's a high workload. There's a lot teachers have to do. It's not just the time that you're with the students. It's also lesson planning.

It's marking. It's assessments. It's speaking to parents, letters, lots of different things. And I think there's a lot, particularly after COVID, children struggling with mental health and things like that. There's a lot of other things that teachers deal with and in terms of helping children. So I think, yeah, it's very much agreed across society, I would say, that the teacher workload is high. And that's something I know myself. Are teachers using AI at the moment?

What are they using it for? Yeah, they are using it. So a survey tool called Teacher Tap, which surveys teachers, thousands of teachers every day. has asked teachers that question and data from a year ago said that about 31% of teachers said they were using it weekly and then just in one year that's jumped up to 58%. And I've spoken to some friends who are teachers who say it can be really good for things like planning and marking. I think that's emerging and stuff like generating quizzes and helping with letters to parents and things like that and admin tasks,

but always kind of overseen and edited by a human teacher. Let's bring Shane in here. Morning Shane. The Great Schools Trust has been piloting a number of uses of AI. What are the AI solutions that you're trialling? And also, what can go through them, I think? Let's start with marking, AI marking. How does that work? Morning, Anita. I mean, basically a teacher will take their mock papers, their assessments and drop them into the photocopier, go and have the lunch. and come back and they're all marked and analysed

and it's saving you think an average teacher might have say two GCSE classes and maybe an A-level class it's saving hundreds of hours of marking and allowing them to put that time

back in other areas which you can understand if it's something like science or maths but what about subjects like English where there isn't necessarily one right answer how does AI work there

well I think that's where it's really capable because we've spent about 24 months developing this and it uses its analysis capabilities to actually interpret the examiner's mark schemes so that it's linking the child's answer to the mark scheme and providing our feedback back to the teacher. Haley, is someone checking those marks

or is AI being trusted completely? I think they are checking And certainly when I spoke to Shane, he was saying that the teacher will then check and they'll then see where were the gaps. And when they were testing their software, they certainly were cross-comparing and actually found that the AI, where the teachers, and they were trying to compare which one was more accurate, actually they found that AI was. And I think the teachers, what they said to me is that the teachers can then look at the gaps, look at the gap and do a gap analysis, say it was science and it was about photosynthesis, was the example they used. and then, well, Shane will be able to tell you better. But then their next step is to then say, okay, well, then the teacher can use that to inform their planning, can use AI to help them speed up that planning, adapt it. And then that brings us to the deep fake avatars that they're now going to trial, which are going to give feedback to students as well.

Okay, tell us more about these. So, yeah, what they have told me is that they're going to start rolling it out before Christmas in trials and get feedback from teachers. from parents and from students but the idea is that it will be the child's teacher if the teacher wants to do it offering that bespoke feedback so using that photosynthesis example then saying hey le you didn't understand this part here's some bespoke feedback for you that maybe would be like 10 minutes of a lesson for example after an assessment or a mock paper and then they can that child can get bespoke feedback whilst the teacher is also in the room with them going around and making sure each child understands. Let's hear one of these AI avatar. Let's hear what they sound like.

This is Mr. Barker, principal of King's Leadership Academy in Wavertree. And just to stress, this is from an AI generated video. Good morning, Freddie. This is your digital, Mr. Smith. I'm glad you've logged into Credimus AI. We missed you in music last week, and I hope you're feeling better now. In our lesson on Monday, we explored melody and rhythm, focusing on how different note patterns combine to create a musical phrase. We also discussed how tempo and dynamics can change the mood of a piece. That was Mr Smith, an AI avatar of Mr Smith. I personally noted no disappointment in his voice,

but maybe that's just my own personal experience coming into there. Shane, I'm sure there's going to be concern about using deep fakes of teachers. How is it done responsibly? Well, at the moment it's on a trial, and I think teachers see. the benefit the amount of time it saves them so if you think the average teacher might have 30 children in a class how do you get around all those children in one lesson how do you build those relationships but if you're using the technology to summarize the gaps in the learning the child can

interact with an avatar while the teacher then goes around and actually spend time really focused in terms of making sure the children who are really stuck get the support they need. So it's about making work load easier, making sure children get the information that they need and raising standards. Parents might be concerned that their children are missing out on that kind of one-to-one interaction. Yeah, I think it increases the one-to-one interaction because don't forget, the teacher's still in the room, they're still interacting with the child. But take an average classroom, if you walk into a classroom, you won't see many children asking questions because in the type of environment that you have, it's not always

that easy for a child to ask a question. But if you've got an AI avatar that you connect with directly, you can ask a lot of questions. Plus you've got the teacher there as well to clarify any misunderstandings and still build those one-to-one relationships with the children as they're being taught. And you can see why for teachers, you know, helping ease the workload is hugely beneficial. But do you, Shane, have any concerns about it? I mean, there's lots of worry around generative AI and how it's displacing people from their jobs. It stops people from engaging their brains. It's heavy use on resources and the implications on climate change. It's things we've discussed a lot. How do you feel about those aspects of it? Yeah, I totally understand

those. I mean, I think the real risk with AGI isn't malice. It's probably competence. You know, it's very, very good at what it does. And we just have to make sure that the appropriate guide rails and procedures are in place so that it does do the things we needed to do. And it keeps teachers in the profession is ultimately we see about 30 to 50% of new teachers leaving every year they come into the profession really excited

they want to teach children the passions about the subject and like Haley really explained very well is that the market, the workload, the administration suddenly spoils the fun and we've spoken about the pressures on teachers in this programme

a lot but Haley you've still got friends who are teachers and that what have they said to you about this. Have they been in touch about your report? They have been in touch. I think it's safe to say it was a little bit controversial. So the report wasn't just about Shane and their deep fake trials. It was also about another school which has a virtual teacher, which is a real person, but who is teaching maths to year 9, 10 and 11 students in Lancashire remotely. And some of my friends who are teachers were kind of concerned about, you know, is this going to make

children and students more addicted to screens or is this going to make teaching feel more like babysitting if you're the adult in the classroom with the children when they're learning remotely from someone else. So I think it is a controversial subject for sure. And one we'll be coming back to but for now, Haley Clark from the BBC in Shane Iestan from Great Schools Trust. Thank you. Sharon says my son is at Further Education College. The tutor is using AI to give feedback and work and he said he hasn't got enough time to do all the marking. And another message here. Sophie Cansella has it absolutely spot on, says one of our listeners. The joy of ordinary family and friends with Bolton Sparkle is the way to live. Join me tomorrow for more Women's Hour.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hi, I'm Katie Razzle. And for BBC Radio 4 from Shadow World, this is Anatomy of a cancellation. I'm a symbol of a particular time and a extreme version of cancel culture. Poet and teacher Kate Clanchie wrote a book about her 30-year teaching career which was initially praised. It's a wonderful book. But later, others said it was racist

and deeply problematic. The language in this book is so dehumanising. Unjustified cancellation? Long overdue reckoning? Subscribe to Shadow World, anatomy of a cancellation on BBC Sounds.