Woman's Hour - 13/04/2026

Episode Date: April 13, 2026

Women's voices and women's lives - topical conversations to inform, challenge and inspire.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. What was the point of the Artemis II mission round the moon? I'm Tristan Redmond, host of the Global Story Podcast. The Artemis crew are back on solid ground after travelling further from Earth than any human has before. The mission was a success. All was it? Aside from getting great picks for socials, did we learn anything? For more, listen to the Global Story.

on BBC.com or wherever you listen. Hello, this is Neula McGovern, and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. Hello, and welcome to the programme. I hope you had a good weekend. Victor Orban did not. Sunday's vote brought a blow to Hungary's Prime Minister of 16 years.

Mr Orban is now on the way out. Peter Madjar is now on the way in. You might remember Mr. Orban's procreation over immigration policies. Well, we're going to be live in Budapest in just a moment, to hear what is expected from the new leader for women in the country. Also today, who inspires the girls that you know? We're going to have the journalist, Catherine Carr, with us this hour,

who has spoken to girls up and down the country about many things, including who they consider a role model and why. Girls will hear still look to their mothers. It was hard for you, and it's hard for me, they often say. Well, I'd like to hear from you on who the girls in your life look up to and why. To get in touch, you can text the program. that number 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour, or you can email us through our website.

For a WhatsApp message or a voice note, that number is 0300-100-400-444. Now here's one woman who we could put on the list. Mary Louise Ita. She has become the first woman appointed to manage a men's team in one of Europe's top five leagues. She's interim head coach of the Bundesliga side, Union Berlin. More on her this hour. The artist Paula Rago once said, I try and get justice for women, at least in the pictures, revenge too.

Paula's son, Nick Willing and the writer, her friend Marina Warner, join me to discuss a new exhibit of Paula's drawings that help tell the story of her life. That is all coming up. But let us begin. Because as you've been hearing in the bulletins all morning, Hungarian Prime Minister, Victor Orban, 16 years in power, is coming to an end. after an election that saw massive voter turn out. Peter Majjar, Orban's former ally, is heading for power

and is on course to win two-thirds of all the seats in Parliament. Orban was seen as a friend to both Russian President, Vladimir Putin and Donald Trump. His right-wing government also introduced a range of policies aimed at boosting Hungary's declining birth rate with particular focus on women as workers and mothers. Now, those policies have proved popular with many, but they've also raised questions about equality and how, women's lives are being shaped by the state.

In a moment, we will hear from Eva Fodor, a Hungarian academic and sociologist at the Central European University. Her gender studies course was effectively banned by the Orban government that was in 2018. But first, I want to bring in the BBC's East and Central Europe correspondent Nick Thorpe, who has had a late night and an early morning. Good to have you with us, Nick.

So Mr. Orban, in power for 16 years. How would you describe what happened to the rights of women? and the situation for women in the country during that time. Well, Nululah, it's a very important question, and it's one that's been neglected, so I'm glad you're asking me, so I'll do my best to answer it, as you say, after a very short night.

I think the simple answer is there's been no discussion during the last 16 years in Hungary of the rights of women. Just to put that in perspective, as you say, he's been very much talking about the traditional family, I was talking last week to the Canadian political philosopher Michael Ignatyev, who put this, who sort of described this situation better, I think, than anyone else has so far. He said that basically after the, we could talk about the liberal revolution since the Second World War, when women's rights, gay rights, black rights, minority rights were all, you know, came to the fore.

and what we've had under Victor Orban and people, politicians of his ilk, is really a kind of counter-revolution against that revolution. So he talks about restoring the traditional family, about cancelling gender studies courses, as you'll hear later in the program and so on.

So it's not about rights, it's more about sort of restoring, as he saw, I suppose, something more like a 19th century, view of the world in which women didn't necessarily need to be sort of neglected completely to the background but there was no talk

really from his side about women's rights in these last 16 years And I mean looking back at some of the policies there was I think if you had four or more children you pay no income tax if you had a third child there was like a bonus of 30,000 euros there was that which I alluded to

procreation over immigration but that was specifically for women under 40 that were ethnic Hungarians, for example. We have a new leader that will be coming in, Peter Madjar, and I'm wondering, I mean, he was in Mr Orban's party earlier in his career. What do we expect to happen to policies like that, for example, particularly when it comes to reproduction or fertility policies?

Well, you know, Peter Madiard is also a clear, sort of a conservative, but he's coming from the centre right, not from the far right. So he's not so ideological as Viktor Orban was. He has three children of his own. He with actually Victor Orban's former justice minister, Judith Varga. And I should just say, just as a sort of rider to what you were saying just there, that Mr. Orban was very popular among women, some 60% of Hungarian women, compared to only 40% of Hungarian men were supporting him.

So I think that's a reflection of how sort of socially conservative this country has been and perhaps to some extent still is. Just an interesting thing on the birth rate. I mean, a lot of Orban's policies in the last 16 years were an attempt to increase the birth rate in Hungary. It's a small country. It was 10 million strong when he came to power. It's now only 9.6 million strong.

So initially all these benefits, the tax discounts you mentioned, by the end, By this year, if you have two children as a woman, you don't have to pay any income tax here. So incredibly generous policies, and for a while that seemed to help. The fertility, the total fertility rate increased from, I think it was 1.3 to 1.61 by 2020. But what we've seen now, because of the effects of inflation, problems in the economy, people are less inclined to have, women are less inclined to have children now, and therefore it sunk back to the same level it was in 2010. Only 72,000 babies were born last year in Hungary.

So in a sense, those policies have failed. And Peter Madhya is going to, I think, have in welfare policies coming in now a much more... He'll be thinking more in terms of equality. I was talking to one Roma woman, a woman from the Roma minority the other day in Eastern Hungary. and she was telling me that child benefit that she gets for her three children is only about the equivalent of £40 a month per child and that hasn't increased since 2008. So with this focus very much on supporting, encouraging couples to have more children,

he's been neglecting all kinds of other aspects of social policy which get more emphasis in other countries. Yeah, indeed. Of course, some of those policies grab headlines, but the economy is a one. issue as well and whether it comes to day to day spending or indeed

whether it's talking about child benefit etc. On another aspect coming to children this was a child abuse scandal I understand that was in the country where Mr. Modiar when he was basically

coming more to power or becoming more influential he broke with Mr Orban over a child abuse scandal. What was that about and where does that lie the context of the country. Yeah, it's a very interesting scandal. This was in February 2024. When it turned out that Peter Madias,

ex-Y Judith Varga, who was then Justice Minister, and the other prominent woman in the Hungarian government, the president of the country, Katalin Novak, they had pardoned the deputy head of a foster care, of a child care home, who had been convicted of covering up for the pedophile crimes of his boss. He'd been sentenced to several years in prison and quietly the two leading women in the Fidesz party,

the president and the justice minister had pardoned that man and he'd been released from prison. That caused an enormous scandal because in a country where the conservative government had been talking so much about the traditional family and protecting children, here was a government that was shown to be actually letting

pedophile offenders or those who supported them out of prison and that was a huge moral blow to Fides and I think that was the beginning, not only of Peter Madhya's rise but of Fides's fall because a lot of their own voters became very uncertain because of that scandal. Next day with us I want to bring in Eva Fodor, Hungarian academic and sociologist

at the Central European University. Good morning. too. Thank you for joining us. The Orban government had been accused of attempting to curb academic freedom. Nick was telling us a little bit about how the order was being pushed back against perhaps

a liberal Western philosophy. Your gender studies course was essentially banned. What happened? Good morning and thank you for having me. Yes, indeed in 2018, the Hungarian government decided to de-acredit, not quite banned, but take the accreditation away from gender studies degrees,

essentially meaning that gender studies cannot be offered as a degree in Hungary. So Hungarian students cannot get a degree in gender studies. Gender studies discusses issues related to gender inequality, but that was not the main concern of Orban and the government. They were mostly concerned about gender studies teaching about sexual minority rights, reproductive rights, the rights of trans people, etc. So this is what they were especially fighting for. But in some ways, banning gender studies was more a symbolic move

than something that had a real impact because there were maybe about 20 students enrolled in a gender studies degree in all of Hungary. So they were not doing anything great by banning it. But it was symbolic in a sense of denying the existence of gender and aligning himself with what's called the anti-11. It's interesting because also headline grabbing in many ways. But with that and with this change, as Nick has been telling us about, in leadership,

what does that mean for the future of, be it gender studies or other academic courses that perhaps Orban didn't approve of? Well, I mean, there's a lot of hope amongst academics because Beterre Maggiur has indicated several times that he's going to do everything he can to create more freedom for academic institutions. He will eliminate all the restrictions that Orban placed on both freedom in research and freedom in academia. So this could, of course, mean that gender studies and not just a degree in gender studies, but courses related discussing gender and sexuality can also be introduced again.

And you have faith in that? Yes, I do. You also study labour markets across Europe and I'd be curious about where you see women and how they're doing within Hungary compared to across perhaps the rest of the EU. This is interesting because even though the urban government saw women primarily as bearers of children,

reproducers of the nation, but they also insisted that women joined the labour market. So they wanted women to be working for wages. But they did not guarantee any of the measures that would guarantee gender equality or that would support gender equality. For example, for example, equal wages or family-friendly policies in the workplace. They sort of hope that women will solve it somehow. They'll be both be able to care for an increasing number of children and will be able to be working for wages. This is somewhere where this is a place where Madar and this new program, and of course I can only judge,

the program, not what will actually happen. But the program is different because the program explicitly addresses issues related to the wage gap, issues related to women's position in power, both in the economy and in politics. So, you know,

there's an attempt to create or guarantee more equality for women. But what I thought was really interesting, which Nick was telling us about there, is that Mr. Orban was very popular among women. More popular with women, than with men.

And I'm wondering how you see his popularity, why that is, for example, because you would imagine a politician might try and hold on to some of those votes if there were particular policies that Mr. Orban had that was speaking to those perhaps conservative women. He was very popular,

particularly after he introduced all these pronatalist measures, which guaranteed a lot of money, which basically gave out a lot of money to middle-class white families. That was extremely popular. It was free money, and it was a way acknowledging the difficulties

of reproductive and care work and raising children. So women particularly appreciated that. But from what I am reading now, that women's loyalty shifted from Orban to Tisapar, to the new party to Peter Magar, because a lot of women now are saying that that windfall that comes when you have a child is not enough really to raise children. You need educational institutions.

You need health care. You need security, labor market security, and none of those. And those have deteriorated extremely in the past four years, especially the quality of education, the quality of health care. And Mardiard now is hoping to adjust that and address those issues as well, which is why I understand, which actually explains that that he would get Darwin's loyalty. Nick, let me come back to you. Some of the promises that Pieter Madjar has made championing a kind of civic renewal,

restoring power to democratic institutions. How easy is it to unpick what Mr. Orban has done over the past 16 years? Well, Nulah, it would have been very difficult if the Tissar Party didn't win a two-thirds majority because Victor Orban, in the last 16 years, he wrote a completely new, constitution and he changed or introduced something there between 40 and 50 so-called cardinal

laws. These are laws that can only be changed by a two-thirds majority in Parliament and he did that thinking that no one else would ever get probably ever a two-thirds majority in Parliament. So this affects things like the judiciary, the economy, the makeup of the constitutional court, the rights of the constitutional court, the rights of individual citizens was taken, were taken away to turn to the Constitutional Court if they felt things were going unfairly for them. Only parliamentary members could actually turn to the Constitutional Court. So with this armed with this two-thirds majority, he now has an opportunity to unravel a lot of those things or to re-establish a sort of balance in which the state doesn't interfere in people's

daily life so much or limit them to that very socially conservative vision. vision of society. Nick Thorpe, thank you very much for speaking to us from Budapest this morning and Ava Fadour. We will continue following it and see how some of those policies remain or change in the coming months. Now, next up, author and journalist Catherine Carr. Catherine has travelled around the country to hear about the realities

of modern girlhood. Our new series about the girls will begin on Radio 4 later today. Now, we often speak on Women's Hour about the challenges that girls face growing up. But now with Catherine, we want to speak about the joy of being a girl. What inspires them? What makes them laugh? Who do they look up to? Good morning, Catherine. Good morning. So good to have you with us. And I am throwing that out to our listeners as well, 844, some girls in your life, the names that are on the tip of their tongue as they talk about role models. The girls you spoke to, what age were they? So the vast majority between 13 and 19, with some outliers age 11,

and then some older girls, as with the series about the boys, it was important to me to speak to some early 20s, maybe 19, 20, 21, because they're like frontline reporters. They've just come through adolescence, and they can tell me what it was like with all the freshness and all the emotions still really accessible. So that was more a kind of reflective angle, really. And I would say, although we're not talking about that now,

but in the series, that's when sexual relationships and things become more of a pressing concern. So it's good to have both. Yeah, I mean, it's really interesting. kind of to think about it generationally as well. And I was wondering about with the girls that you met, how are they viewing their future, be it careers or what they expect to happen when they become an adult?

I mean, I have to say from the outset, doing that road trip, I'll put it all in one, is one of the joys of my life, both of the boys and for the girls. The girls were the best company, and the boys were the best company. But they were inspiring, cheerful, ambitious. they all had a dream, regardless of where I found them, in really working class areas or really quite posh areas. They all had a dream of what they wanted to do for their future. And until later on

on 20s, 21, maybe, policy and society hadn't quite impinged on some of those dreams. But it was great. And they looked at me like, you know, I'm 100 years old. So they were saying, you know, it's a lot better than in your day, which you could just be a secretary or a mum. And I was like, well, and yet here I am with the microphone. But okay. But what were those dreams? Catherine, give me an idea of some, I don't know, what their dream career might be for some of them that you met. Professional footballer. I met a girl in Birmingham who's already signed to Villa, Poland and England. She's 14. So the lionesses, they are role models. People want to go into politics. So hearing your first item, girls look at women in politics and how they're treated and they want to be treated better and to do better.

So politics. Forensic biologists, microbiologists, they want to be lawyers. They want to be dance teachers. They want to be, I can't tell, just the breadth and depth of their ambition. And also, I think compared to my generation, they have a pretty clear idea of how to get there. And the message in school and college from teachers is quite, you know, pro-girls careers, as you'd hope. And that it is possible because, you know, I've spoken to so many people on this program that have broken through barriers, but they tell me when they were girls they did not think X was possible. They think it's possible. Look, the vast majority of 13 to 19. also thought everything that I wanted to achieve was possible at that age as well. And that was before

I came up against the reality of childcare, childcare costs and the structure of the society that we live in. That said, some girls in poorer parts of the country, they're very alive to those concerns. They can tell you what childcare costs and how you have to earn the money to go out to do it, because they are, in these times, cost of living crisis being what it is, sucked a little bit more back into the domestic sphere. And we know white working class girls, absentee rates are pretty high at school and a lot of that is explained by unofficial caring. So there is reality as well. It does impinge and I was told by one 19 year old, yeah, you're told to dream big at school. But the boys, they just go and get their big boy jobs and we end up kind of carrying the can.

So there's a bit of reality that comes in. Now, one part of reality, which is joyful, is friendships when it comes to girls and women. Of course, they're really important to some of the girls that you met. I want to play a little. This is from an older girl guide who's now at university talking about finding friendship and being herself. As you get a bit older, there is also this sense of like this kind of movement of like liberation and kind of just being yourself is the coolest thing you could do. And then like, you know, recently going to uni

and then I was just like, wait, I can actually be myself and who I want to be. And then you kind of find your people and find these amazing women who all just feel so comfortable in themselves and that creates really secure friendships. And I think that's such like a beautiful thing. and just like having that freedom of being who you want to be because like being a woman is part of who I am but it doesn't have to kind of confine anything

like it doesn't have to force me to be a specific way it's just one part of everything that I am being a woman doesn't have to restrict me is what I'm hearing there yeah and they told me that's a lot and I will say about friendship it's tricky and sticky so people with teenage girls will be listening to that maybe when they're in years 8, 9, 10 and thinking that does not resonate. It's a nightmare of Snapchat, group chats and politics and who's in, who's out, and FOMO.

But largely, the girls by the time they got to that age, they'd let go of the idea of cringe and being judged. And they had found people that kind of loved them. And you felt this sustaining aspect of female friendship, which we understand, right, and which they were learning about in those later teen years. And yeah, they are interested, as the boys were, in being a girl and becoming a woman. but also it's kind of a weird idea for them to look at because they're a person with all these ambitions as a person. So it can be a bit of a funny thing to think about,

except it is still pertinent. I also found it interesting that a place where girls can be themselves is often a third space. So it's not home, it's not school, it's elsewhere. Yeah. Where did you find that girls kind of come alive or are able to shed their inhibitions and talk freely. I mean, I've written a piece for BBC Online about this,

and my conclusion is that girls are still really influenced by the presence of boys and how they're told or feel they're told to behave online and in real life by boys and men. And the third spaces you're describing, dance clubs, dance United Yorkshire, I went to incredible netball club in Cheltenham Hucklecote, Netball Club, Dr. M's, an incredible youth club that I went to both for boys and for girls. And I had the email this morning from the leader. they're saying she's been reflecting on the difference between the boys' interviews and the girls. And since me visiting, she said, and I read, it's been a call to action.

We've started a girls' football program. We've started swimming just for girls where you can go in leggings and a t-shirt. We've started a girls' session in a weekly safe space for girls to focus on their well-being and body image issues. Because there was a great sense that girls feel constrained in the space they take up and the loudness that they're allowed to have in school, often. In mixed sex situations. Yeah, and at home, the stats show that kids spend most of the time their bedroom scrolling and getting lost in this nonsense.

And you know what? In terms of role models, they look up to people, they really do. They look up to older women, they really do. But they don't look up to our behaviour online, social media-wise. Right. They are not inspired by the older women they see, as in thrall to the consumer selling, body shaming, whatever it is that even I look at, skin care and menopause,

belly and eyebags and wrinkles. They see women my age doing that and they think, oh, so it's getting better in some ways, but you guys seem to still be struggling with this. Well, let's talk about role models a little bit. I want two play a clip that you brought us. This is a girl talking about how she looks up to her aunt. I've never had a sibling. I'm an only child.

But I think I had that sort of person I looked up to in my auntie. My auntie is almost 10 years younger than my mum. so we were a lot closer in age and she was sort of like in the middle and I did, I always found a lot of inspiration in my mum we always talk about how it works whenever she's doing stuff it's about breaking her glass ceiling it's not the glass ceiling it's her personal one

and I think that's really inspiring as well and I think I am far more like her than she would ever want me to be she does sometimes say like oh poor you you're too much like me but I think I have drawn a lot of inspiration from my auntie as well and I think now that she's gone on to have kids that are again 10 years younger than me I think I hope that I'm going to be the role model for my little cousins and that it continues on like that.

Yeah, it's lovely actually, isn't it, to hear that? And I'm curious who else did they speak about? I mean, overwhelmingly family members, really? Godmothers, grandmothers, sisters, all. If they're looking at university or college courses with their older sister, they were like, oh, hold on a second. Cous cousins who have kind of slightly glamorous remote lives where they can see them managing themselves in a way they admire. And then of course, Taylor Swift, Sendea, Kylie Jenner, people who have made money who are, I don't like the word, particularly, but girl bossing it and doing it well. They look up to them too.

But I think it's the more, there is this idea of sisterhood that may not exist with their teenage friends earlier at school when it's problematic, but which a lot of. of them talked about existing cross-generationally. So when things do get tricky and sticky, they look to their mums, their older sisters. I've just written a book about siblings. It all matches up. Mums, older sisters, grandmas, godparents, teachers, and these youth workers, like the women who emailed me this morning who are doing this incredibly deep work. It's not a sort of one-size-fits-all, the youth work that really impacts that I saw.

It is very, very personal. And sometimes I think what I'm hearing is almost, within that complex web of relationships so maybe one removed from the nuclear family or the mum and dad so that other adult or somebody who's 10 years older than them to kind of give a little bit of guidance.

You talk about sisterhood there. I wonder about motherhood. Do they see it as a choice, expectation? Did they talk about it? Oh, I had the best time in Birmingham talking to a group of girls and they, I mean, all of them had this idea of their lives which I loved.

You know, they want a beautiful or handsome partner and a golden retriever and a couple of kids and a dream house and a job and they want to co-own a salon or be a forensic pathologist, whatever it is. And so motherhood is there. And one of them says in the program you'll have to hear, you know, it's a beautiful thing that we can do as women. We can have children bring life into the world.

So they see it. But interestingly, the footballer who was in Birmingham, because she's professional already, she has a framework in which she can see that if she wants children, her body will be changed, she'll be left behind, her teammates won't wait. And as she said, all the man has to, to do is his thing in the night time and he can he's free. So for those for whom it's already a

reality, the maths has started to sort of look a little bit tricky to add up. For the rest of them, I loved hearing the dreams. I was like, you know what, you go and you make it happen. I believe they can. We were talking about role models. One listener got in touch says Mary Bennett in the BBC production of the other Bennett sister. Hands down the best role model for girls and young women that I've seen on tellian ages. She's brilliantly unapologetically herself, intelligent, thoughtful and all the more likable for it. I think what comes across Catherine when I'm speaking to you is that joy, the wonder, the anticipation, the excitement

that girls have for their lives. What would you like people to take away from it? I would like people to sort of join an unofficial campaign for more youth work, but I'd also want people to, if they don't spend time with girls, as the girls told me themselves, don't judge teenage girls by what you see online because a lot of them are forced they feel into performing a kind of girlhood which isn't really them. There's a lot of lovely, quote-unquote,

normal, nice, cheerful, hopeful girls out there. But I would say we have built a system with social media that does not serve those girls well. We will speak more about that as well. I do want to let people know there will be a focus on girls all week on Radio 4. You can listen to Catherine's about the girls at 1.45 this afternoon and every day this week, also on BBC Sounds, of course.

File on 4 investigates. They're looking at why white working class girls are falling behind academically. That's tomorrow evening at 8pm. And I do want to let you know. Catherine alluded to it there briefly. But her previous series was about the boys which explored the confusing,

often troubling messages, shaping boys' understanding of masculinity. All very rich areas for discussion. Catherine, thanks so much for coming into us. Thank you very much. I want to turn to Rosamie Pike. Did you see she won Best Actress last night at the Olivier Theatre Awards?

It was for her performance as the Maverick Crown Court Judge in the legal thrill. Miller, Traalia, at the National Theatre. She spoke to Woman's Hour in February about why her character resonates strongly with so many women. The play has really spoken to women who've come to see it

because they sit in the theatre and they think, oh, that's me, that's my life. Because as well as being about the legal system, it's about how any professional woman is sort of living her life, going about her day, until something else sabotages the narrative, whether it's her child who's lost his football boots or, you know, the husband who's calling in sick and suddenly,

or somebody's helping with childcare, can't make it, or any professional hiccup happens that means your day is derailed. She says once to her friend that she feels that she's living her life in the cracks of other people's needs, which I think is a line that really spoke to me, and I think we'll speak to a lot of other women too. It seems to represent the frenetic nature of a modern woman's life, because I think we still feel, however far we've come with feminism,

and we still feel grateful, I think, to be able to have careers. Rosamine Pike, speaking to us in February, Interalia has now transferred to London's Wyndham Theatre, where it's running until June. I love listening to Rosamine Pike. What was the point of the Artemis II mission round the moon? I'm Tristan Redmond, host of the Global Story Podcast. The Artemis crew are back on solid ground

after travelling further from Earth than any human has before. The mission was a success. Or was it? Aside from getting great picks for socials, did we learn anything? For more, listen to the Global Story on BBC.com or wherever you listen.

Now, I need to let you know that for the first time, a woman has been appointed to coach a men's team in one of Europe's top five football leagues in what has been described as a landmark moment. moment. Mary Louise Ita has been named interim head coach of Union Berlin in the German Bundesliga league. So that's the equivalent of the Premier League. It's a sudden appointment until the end of the season. And it follows a string of losses and dismissal of the previous coach. Here to tell us lots more about her and also what this means is Rosie Webb, who has UEFA A license. That's one of the highest levels and was one of the few female coaches in charge of a men's team in England for five years. She's now taken

charge of the women's under 21 squad at Charlton Athletic. Good to have you with us, Rosie. Good morning. Good morning. And also with us Laura McAllister, who's a former international footballer and vice president of UEFA, which is the governing body of football in Europe. Good morning, Laura. Good morning, Bodhis. Laura, let me start with you. Your reaction to the news. Now, this is interim coach as well. I should probably say that about Mary Louise,

but it is a first. It is at first, and I think we should celebrate all trailblaze. and every moment where there's an element of the glass ceiling being broken, particularly in football, because as I've said several times, we lag behind the curve in terms of good governance and diversity in the management and running of our sport. But I think we must put it in perspective as well. This is an absolutely fantastic ex-female player.

A great, great coach has already been an assistant coach at Union Berlin and is now being given a big opportunity to keep the team. up in the Bundesliga. But like every moment where a woman breaks the glass ceiling, there's a glass cliff waiting below. And I think that's certainly the risk here in that it's unlikely Union Berlin will be relegated. I think they've had a very, very bad runner form.

But I think they're 11 points clear. But, you know, I don't think she would necessarily have been given this opportunity if the team was in the top three and pushing for a Champions League place, put it that way. And I'm just going to describe what the glass cliff is. we might be used to the glass ceiling and not breaking through the glass cliffs. So a phenomenon where women and minority leaders are appointed to top positions during times of crisis or downturn, making failure likely. Well, yes, but let's be optimistic.

I'm a glass half-full person. Whilst that is often the case in sport, and we've seen it here in Wales as well with the Welsh Rugby Union particularly, and it is often the case in all sports, there is also a big opportunity here. You know, we're not talking about an inexperienced coach. We're talking about somebody who has a fantastic CV that would match any man's of her age and experience in any of the top five leagues. So this is a great opportunity to normalise women coaches

in these important positions. But, you know, I have to say as well, we have to ask ourselves, is there any kind of realistic meritocracy in the appointment of big coaches in football? because if there were, there would be more women already. There are plenty of men coaching in the women's game. So it's not an argument to say women are not suited to coaching the men's game.

If men are suited to coaching the women's game. But they're not being promoted despite having more impressive CVs than men. And that's an issue for us to attempt to deal with in football. Rosie, how was it coaching men compared to coaching women? How do you see this appointment? Yeah, I think it's an interesting one. And I think that I always get drawn to the fact that their short-term appointments, I think we've still got a long way to go before we actually see a female go into one of these top leagues

and have an appointment that's longer than four to five games. I think we've got a long way to go until that happens. Yeah, because what can you do in that time, Rosie? I think it's a feeling that she'll probably be feeling that most females experience when they walk into a room full of mouths that they have to prove themselves and the spotlight is on them. But if you look at football now,

probably five to six games is all you get to number one win the team over, but get results and win fans over. So football's kind of got to that point now where managers are getting a shorter amount of time to get that success. And this is probably no different. However, it still resonates with me that their short-term appointments.

And although we celebrate the success that, yes, we've got a few. female manager in one of the top leagues. Again, it's a short-term appointment. I'm waiting for a club to be brave to make this a longer-term appointment. And for you, what were the biggest challenges being in that male-dominated environment when you were coaching men? I think, firstly, my own insecurities.

I think when you walk into rooms like that, you start to have a lot of self-doubt, like, do I belong here? Do I know enough? And if I'm going to get challenged, I'm definitely going to get challenged in the our environment. And that was probably my biggest battle before anything else was building my own confidence, my own resilience and believing that I was there because I had a purpose and I was good enough to be in that role to begin with. It's interesting, isn't it? I'm just thinking of Rory McElroy winning the Masters and they said so much of it is down to that

psychological. What did they say? Something like a steel will on winning, which obviously he has worked on over the years. But it's interesting that so much comes down to how we think about things. We do know that male coaches receive an awful lot of abuse when they are managing a men's team. Is it more for a woman, do you think, as a female coach? I think it's a little bit more

personal abuse. I think that I've been in the non-league for a very long time and there's abuse you get week in week out but then there's also that abuse that oversteps the line and I experienced that quite a bit throughout the time that I was at Stanway Pegasus and the club was very supportive.

the leagues were very supportive. And you know what? I wouldn't change those experiences because it's made me more resilient and it's made me a stronger coach than I've ever been being in that environment. And why did you decide then to move to coaching a woman's team, which will be, as I mentioned, Charlton Athletic Under-21s?

Yeah, I felt like I got to a point where I'd done all I could at that club and, you know, we'd reached a playoffs for the last three seasons and, you know, I'd done the best with the budget that we had. And I didn't really feel like I was getting challenged as much anymore and it became more of a routine every day going in

whereas I wanted to be in an environment that was going to challenge me and be uncomfortable again. Everybody can understand that but was there do you think

you mentioned it's a small club like a pathway for you to reach let's talk about glass ceiling as opposed to glass cliff coaching men yeah I felt like

I'd reached a glass ceiling with the club that I was at I'd done the most that I could and I felt that I'd left the legacy and I still go back and do lots of work with them now. I thought maybe I would have had a few more offers from male clubs in higher divisions that never came.

It was always offers from female teams. And I guess that's still that kind of society thinking in terms of men in those roles, especially in non-league. Let me come back to you, Laura. We talk about Marie-Louise Ita. This happened in Germany. Do you think there's a difference in coaching? culture there? Is there anything particular to Germany? Or is it just the way the cookie grumbled?

No, no, not really. I think all five of the top leagues in Europe are pretty similar in all honesty. And I can relate to a lot of what Rosie says there. I've experienced the same myself in terms of governance opportunities and how we're treated in that space. Because we are, how can I put it? We're anomalies, basically. And every time we walk into a football space, we're one of very, very few women, in my case, in the governance and in Rosie's case in the coaching environment. So there's a big task for us ahead in football,

but let's be positive here. A lot of this work is underway. We've got requirements for all national teams and Champions League, Women's Champions League teams, to have female coaches. So of course it's starting in the women's game because even there, we don't have sufficient coaching resource. But what we've also got to do

is change the culture of football more generally. we only do that by being on the inside. So whilst I sort of, you know, said this is a glass cliff potentially for Rita, it's also a huge opportunity. And she will seize it with both hands, I know, because if we normalise women in those spaces, as we're trying to do in the governance of the sport, we encourage other women to put themselves forward.

And in my experience, women are much, much better at these roles by and large than a lot of men who are already there. It's interesting thing, because what I'm hearing is really a two-pronged approach. You've got the football culture, which is the part that the public sees. But then there's the private part, which Rosie so eloquently described

about the doubt that can be placed in your mind, even though obviously incredibly capable and qualified for that role. How do you change that for women coaches coming in? Gosh, that's a huge question, isn't it? And I can relate to that again. You know, it's even when we have the experience that Rosie has in coaching and I have in football governance.

When you're the only woman or one of a very tiny number of women, then it's challenging. You know, the culture can be quite exclusionary and detached from what we're used to and not maybe operate by the same values that we expect. But I think we've all got to embrace the status as trailblazers because as we chip away at this culture, we open up big chasms where we can really enact some changes. the future. And I think there is a will

there now. Certainly I can speak for UEFA. There is a real will to change the environment. For coaches, of course, but for players as well, and clubs and for those of us involved in administering the sport. But let's be perfectly honest, you know, this is generational change. We're not going to get there

overnight, even with the best will in the world. How long do you think of my take? Do you know, I don't know. So on my optimistic days, when everything is going really well and I can feel we're making really rapid progress, I think, Yeah, you know, for women in their 20s now, they'll experience something very different to, you know,

my experience in football. And I hope that's the case. But, of course, in order to change things, we need men to really embrace the change agenda. And I'm afraid that is a power battle then because it's very hard to prize power from the hands of men who've run football for centuries and maybe not quite seeing the talent that's around them

in terms of women in football. And we're doing that, you know, we're changing the gender balance in UEFA through the gender equality working group that I chair. We've got lots of incentives for governing bodies and for clubs now. But I couldn't put a time date on it to be perfectly honest because it would depend on the will that's there from the men who are in charge. Rosie, let me come back to you. Did you feel you were representing or hot to represent all women when you were in the post at Pegasus? Did that bring extra pressure? I don't feel like it brought extra pressure, but I felt like because I was in a club that was really accepting and, you know, they were very forward thinking in where they wanted to go.

I got to a point where I'd walk into the change room and I was Rosie the coach, not Rosie the female coach. And when people ask me about my time there, I always just see myself as a coach. But that took a lot of time and that took a lot of ups and downs to get to that mindset. But that was also helped by the club. And I think the clubs are so important in embracing things. females within the clubs. And also, how can you support them when they're in that club? Because there are some silent doubts that we go through as females. And as females, we do tend to keep it to ourselves. And, you know, we can walk out the front door and we have this persona that

we're strong females. And then you get home and you put the tell you on, you're sitting on the sofa and you have all these doubts that unfold. So there needs to be support around that as well. Yeah, yeah. I hear you. I'm just curious as well, Rosie. Is it different to coach men? than it is to coach women? There are some differences. I think the physical side of the game, definitely. But I also think when I coach men, they tend to ask less of the why and just do it

and then they'll ask questions after, whereas females we like to ask, right, why are we doing this? What's the purpose is? Where does this link to in the game? So they tend to just get on and do it and ask the questions after. So interesting. I want to thank both of you for joining.

me this morning with Laura McAllister, former international footballer and vice president of UEFA, which is the governing body of football in Europe, and Rosie Webb that you were just hearing, who has UEFA a licence. As we mentioned, she was in charge off a men's team Stanway Pegasus for five years, but has now taken charge of Charlton Athletic

for the women's under 21 squad. Listener got in touch from Hungary, says Laura says, I'm a British woman who's been living in Budapest for the last 10 years. I have two small children. one thing that hasn't come up in the program is the incredibly long maternity leave here. Two years paid, not at full salary, but a percentage, and up to an extra third year unpaid. State nurseries available free or almost free from around one year.

Kindergarten is mandatory from age three. I'm glad Orban, Victor Orban, who has voted out, is gone, but I've benefited enormously from longer maternity leave and the social acceptance of being it been normal to stay at home with your small children and return to work when they are older. Thank you very much for your message. That was one of the stories we were covering this morning on Women's Hour about Victor Orban being out after 16 years. And Peter Maudiard, who will now be on the way in.

I want to turn to Dame Paula Rago, who has been described as one of the most important artists of the 20th century. She was born in Portugal in 1935 and spent most of her life working in London. She said, I paint to give fear a face. And her art depicts the world from the female perspective. and highlights themes, including abortion, rape, fairy tales, religion, and also how women are viewed in society. Now, four years since her death, there's a new exhibition called Storyline,

bringing together 140 of her paintings, of her drawings, excuse me, showcasing her life from 8 to 80. I'm joined in studio by Paula's son, Nick Willing. Good morning. Good morning. Who curated the exhibition. I had the pleasure of going down to see it in person last weekend and also with her friend, the writer, Marina Warner. Good morning.

Good morning. Now, before we begin, I want to play a little clip of Paula here on Women's Hour in 2004, explaining why so much of her work focuses on the experience of women. I can only have my own experience to go by. I am a woman. They told me at the slave when I first went there, you must only do things that you know about, never roam burning or the slaves escaping or something. and therefore I try to do something that I do know about

and I know about being a little girl and then growing up, being a teenager and then all that stuff. So that's what I tried to do. That was Paula Riego speaking to us. Well Nick, tell me a little bit about this exhibition. It's incredibly personal. It is personal because I was asked to do an exhibition of drawings. We have an enormous amount of drawings that she left us

in her collection. And what I did was to tell the story of her life through her drawing because she identified drawing as the medium that she was most connected to. In fact, once she said, I'm a drawerer, she said, making up a new word. Your dad's the painter, I'm the drawerer.

It's not true, of course. She was a great painter. But it gives you an idea of how close she was to the medium. And you were close to her. her through the medium. You used to draw together, you told me. Yes, as a little boy. The first thing I remember doing with my mother was drawing. We used to draw together. And also, as a child, whenever I had a problem,

she'd asked me to draw a picture of it as a way of, I suppose, understanding that problem. In a way, that's what she did too. Everything she drew was a way of understanding herself and the world around her. And so this exhibition is special because it tells the story. It starts with a drawing she made at eight years old of her grandmother and ends with her 80 as a grandmother drawing a picture of her granddaughter. In between we have all the ups and downs, trials and tribulations that marked her very, very adventurous life.

Extraordinary life, indeed. And also telling the story of other girls and women. that she encountered or wanted to tell their story throughout her life as well. Marina, you were her friend as well as writing about her work and collaborated on books with Paula. When did you first meet her? I met her at the Serpentine show in 86, is that right?

Which was a breakthrough show and really brought her to the attention of people who hadn't really appreciated her before. And she blazed into the scene with these large paintings in those days, a rather different style. We see some of it in the drawings show. We're very loose, very surrealistic, very

almost caricature of the Vivian girls, but also then she moved into this very more realistic scenes, very enigmatic, the policeman's daughter, cleaning his jack boot. There's an excellent drawing for that painting in this

little show. Not such a little show. No, really, over a couple of floors. And we are brought kind of deeper and deeper, I feel, into Paula's life as we see it. It is extraordinary because it's in a sense. Some of the drawings, you say, Nick, that they've got footprints on them

because she just scattered them on the studio floor. And I think very few artists, the bottom draw would be such a revelation of so many treasures. I was interested as well, Nick. I want you to share this with our listeners that from when she was a little girl, she would almost get in the flow or the trance, even at four years of age.

And you were explaining to me how her mother knew when she was in that particular point. She made an unconscious noise when she drew quite like that. I mean, I'm getting it close to it, but it was very alarming at times

when you were in the studio with her. And she started making that noise as young as four. And whenever her mother heard it coming from her bedroom, she'd know that she could leave her for two hours. or three because she'd be so engrossed in her drawing. Yes. I think that's very indicative because actually one of the things that she really does as an artist is touch the unconscious. I mean, it's quite extraordinary how she goes through to the hidden and the unspoken.

This is why I think she's become, she speaks to so many people now, where she's become so popular and so well known. I mean, she wasn't in her, you know, really for a long time. In younger years. I mean, I saw it described, and this is from a number of years ago, just looking back at some of the examples. exhibits over the past four or five years. They described it as Paula Fever, that there is like a hunger there for her now. Marina? And I think that's because she looks at what is illicit and she earns up to it. And also something that you've been talking about,

which is the permission not to be glamorous, not to be, she gave people permission, especially women, permission not to conform to the thin stereotypes. I mean, her figures are famously stern. vigorous, energetic, and full of a kind of inner strength, while at the same time being oppressed and subjugated. There's always a tension in her work between people who are oppressing,

but who exercise, the weaker exercise, a kind of power as well. Nick, when you brought me through, there's so many, I suppose, parts of societies that come through. she was very clear about authoritarianism, for example, how obedience was expected of girls and the loneliness that there could be within certain points. I'm thinking of when you showed me a picture of a young woman who had just had a back street abortion.

The picture is not graphic at all. We more see the back of the girl, but the grief and loneliness comes through. Yes, I sometimes describe her as the judge, Jiminy Cricket of Portugal, which is the country of her birth, because she touches on so many themes of taboo, repressed feelings that they have suffered. She grew up in a fascist dictatorship, fought it for most of her life. It wasn't until 1974 that finally it was overthrown. And she used her painting to criticise and protest the fascist and authoritarian

regime. And then she again used painting to try and persuade the Portuguese public to vote in favor of abortion when it came up in 2007. And I made a little film for the BBC about her life and work and interviewed the president of Portugal that was the president at the time, Josh Sampayo. And he more or less said, yeah, that really made a big difference with the Portuguese. So she did become sort of their conscience. She was, when she showed a series of pictures she made about suffering from depression, something she suffered all her life. And she was ashamed to show them.

In fact, she hid them for 10 years in a bottom draw of her plan chest. And finally, I convinced her to pull them out for our film. And when they were shown in Portugal, it was quite a miraculous thing. People started to talk about them and radio shows like this and TV program. It was almost like opening the door to a taboo. Finally, people had the strength to talk about these things. She had a tremendous sensitivity to ordinary people, in inverted commas, their lives.

And actually it shows in the series that she made, which you have the drawings for, for the president of the life of Mary, of the Virgin Mary. Yes. And she casts her as a very young girl, with huge angels in the enunciation, appearing and sort of commanding her. So she's in a position of subjugation again.

And then there's a wonderful massacre of the innocence and the tiny, tiny babies. And she has this tremendous sense of vulnerability and pathos, as well as a sense of defiance and resilience. I mean, it's not only vigorous, energetic women defying their oppressors. It's also the pathos of... I think that picture that she drew of the Virgin Mary as a young, a schoolgirl 12 to 14, but like a modern... schoolgirl, and I can still remember like the angle

of the girl's feet in her little shoes really stayed with me afterwards. It's like these small details that kind of penetrate your consciousness. It's interesting you mentioned the feet because her feet and her hands are the most expressive, astonishing how

she manages to express hugely eloquent. She used to say that hands were the hardest things to draw. She was very, very... And they're among the most expressive things. And she was very, very good at it. And also her gift for dramatizing and expressing through gesture and pose. The posture, the pose of the model was very important. One of the things that strikes me, again, looking at all the pictures in this,

it's the largest show of drawings ever of Polaro, is that there are no victims in Polaroogues. The girls are always defiant. Powerful. And our eyes are drawn. to them. I do need to let people know. The storyline opens at the Victor Miro Gallery in London this Thursday, so that's the 16th of April running until the 23rd of May. And I want to thank my guest, Nick Willing and Marina Warner for coming in to speak to us about Paula Rago. Tomorrow's Woman's Hour. Please join me then. joined by Tessa Peake Jones. You might remember her as Raquel in Only Fools and Horses. Fabulous play Invisible Me about turning 60. It's a romantic comedy. Join me then. That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time.

I told my dad stop immediately. This is a scam. Scam secrets with me, Shari Val. He had actually paid £209,000 to the scammers. Each week we expose a different scam in detail to help you spot the red flags. I'll say things like, I carried on with it and I got great returns. With special insights from experts, including criminologists, and a former scammer, who now works to help prevent fraud.

When it's successful, it completely wipes people out. Scam Secrets from BBC Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Sounds. What was the point of the Artemis 2 mission round the moon? I'm Tristan Redmond, host of the Global Story Podcast. The Artemis crew are back on solid ground after travelling further from Earth than any human has before. The mission was a successful.

Or was it? Aside from getting great picks for socials, did we learn anything? For more, listen to The Global Story on BBC.com or wherever you listen.