Woman's Hour - 13/11/2025

Episode Date: November 13, 2025

Women's voices and women's lives - topical conversations to inform, challenge and inspire.

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Now, today we'll be looking into a review that's found the rates of children living with high blood pressure has almost doubled in 20 years. Unhealthy diets and inactivity have been blamed. It's been called a substantial public. health concern, so we'll be looking at the consequences of that on children's health and why it's increased. Also, we speak to Nicole Lecky, the writer and one of the stars of a new drama coming to the BBC, which explores mother and daughter relationships through the complex social media world that teenagers are going through. It is a fascinating watch. So we'd like to hear from you on this. Are you the mother of a teenager who is going through puberty while you're

navigating menopause, how has that been for you? Maybe you feel like your daughter's blossoming while you're struggling with ageing. Also, do get in touch if you had a complex relationship with your mother and let us know how you resolved it. As always, you can text the program. The number is 84844. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour and you can email us through our website or send us a WhatsApp message or a voice note using the number 037100-144. We'd love to hear your views on this. Also, historian Alice Lockstone joins me to talk about her 200-mile walk in search of England's lost queen. She's been tracing the long journey the funeral cortege of Eleanor of Castile took from Lincolnshire to London after her death in the 13th century and how her

husband, Edward I, immortalised her in elaborate crosses built on that route. But first, as we speak, world leaders are gathered in Brazil for the climate change conference COP 30. And to coincide with that, Prince William held his Earthshot prize in the country last week, which aims to find and support solutions for repairing the planet. Well, our next guest was one of the winners of that prize. Runa Khan founded the organisation Friendship over 20 years ago in Bangladesh. Since then, it's helped millions of people get the healthcare they need, with floating hospitals that travel to communities and schools that can be easily dismantled in the event of a natural disaster where the Airshot Prize recognised her organisation

for improving the lives of climate vulnerable people and using a nature-based and locally led model. Runa Khan is at COP 30 this week and joins me now from Brazil. Good morning to you, Runa. Good morning. Thanks so much for joining us from Brazil. Just start by telling me then what winning this award means to you. winning this award I think it brought me a lot of peace personally because you know for the last

23 years me and what I would say my dedicated but I think it's beyond dedication it's a team of people who are truly devoted to a cause and I think we have been trying to address the most vulnerable unaddressed hard to reach communities in the country and incident It is only after we started working with them about 23, 24 years ago, that I realized that they were thus because they were constantly being, their lives were being touched constantly by climate change. It's the geography and climate has always been difficult, but the democracy of Bangladesh has been such that now it's totally full. You know, we have a country which is like one third the size, one fourth the size of France. It's like a little bit more than the bigger than the UK with 180 million people. 50% of the land is under the water all the time.

And so you are scrambling for small pieces of land. And here, the line between life and death is a very, very thin line. And being, having the climate changing. For us, it's feeling uncomfortable. It's a bit hot today, not hot today, but there it's a question of life and death. And working with these people and this being recognized, because I think, because this is the first time that, you know, we have won many awards, wonderful awards, but this is the first time that the friendship, integrated, holistic, climate adaptation solution has been

recognized in a way that it is simple, scalable, replicable nationally and internationally. So let's just find out a bit... And this has brought great joy. Absolutely. Let's just find out a bit more about what it actually means because, as I said, you're awarded because of the nature-based locally led model. So if you can try to explain for real people living in Bangladesh, what does that mean? Yes.

It means that it means that, you know, when you come in with a solution which the people cannot internalize and understand and which has not actually been their need at that particular time, that solution does not work. So you need to work with the communities. And by communities, I don't mean that you go to the chairman of the village or you go to the head of the village. I mean each and every life in that village needs to be addressed and we need to see what it is that they actually need. We need to listen. So, for example, when I first went into these areas, you know, people would tell me, you know, we need a doctor. We need to access health. But the point is that what they needed was far beyond health. They

needed an understanding of their political, geopolitical, social government ecosystem understanding so that they knew how to access health when they needed it. And certainly, because these are like millions of people living on the brink, they needed also curative care. Curative care because that would make them aware that they can be, can get cured. So a woman lost her in a village called in a little, it's not a village, it's really an island of about 2,000 people. And the River Bramaputra is 50, can be 30 to 40 kilometers broad, flowing at 14 knots, and there is this little island, and this woman child died. She had no access to anything, and the next year when we came in, her second child was cured because she brought them to the hospital, brought her to the

hospital. And then the hospital moved, but we had our community medics, because we have a structure which doesn't leave anyone behind, even after we have addressed them. So she comes up, and she demands our community Medicaid to take the child to the hospital, her third child to the hospital who had fallen sick because now she knew she can get cured. And this is extremely important. So, you know, the first thing you need to understand is when a person is suffering, no other development intervention can be brought to them. They will not internalize it. You are suffering. You are in pain. Your hand has been cut. What does it matter whether you're educated? What does it matter if you get food. You need to address that. So addressing the right thing in the right amount,

in the right way, at the right time is crucial. And I think this needs to be done and it can be done properly, holistically, sustainably, only when you work with the communities deeply, daily, you know. And then you come to modalities because you bring tools to them which they did not know about, but because they needed it and it had an impact on them, because you treated them as human beings and not as a number or a figure to report, then they start getting strengthened and they start believing in you. And you can work with them to bring solutions. Can I talk specifically about you? Because it was you who set this up 23 years ago.

And I wonder what your aim was then. And also you're clearly very driven and very much. motivated. Where does that come from? Well, you know, I was born very privileged, like many of us have been, and from the oldest family in the country, and you're kind of brought up in a glass bubble. And actually, you see the beggars on the streets, but then you, they're in your peripheral vision. They're not in your, you know, you don't really kind of see them, you give them something, and that's it. And here I was going into villages, which actually, we were never allowed to go in, but I went with my ex-husband who was French. And so we went into these villages, and I saw things which I just could not move away from. And I repeat that, you know,

that it was, there were thousands of organizations in Bangladesh, thousands of NGOs in Bangladesh, but somehow these people, which are not 100,000, okay, they are in millions, millions along the coastal belt and the Riberine areas, left totally untouched. And I found a woman who was putting her child to bed at 6pm with a bit of light. And I asked her, if you say that you're eating two meals a day, why don't you feed her a little later at night? She won't get hungry. And she looked at me, you know, awed.

She said, yes, but the sun will not be there. And I don't have one penny to be able to get a light to be able to feed her. And I remember standing there and just crying and feeling this deep anger, you know, at injustice that this child and my child, they're born on the same. planet. They're born in the same country. We could have, you know, she could have been my child and I could have been, you know, in her position. And what are we doing about it? And I think this anger, frustration and injustice, I just could not walk away. And I realized that being privileged came with responsibilities. I was not rich. You know, our family, you know, old family is not rich.

But, you know, I was in a position where I could call people, I could get help. And I knew that I could bridge this gap without having any hidden agenda to my and so I was told that I had to make an NGO okay so what is an NGO and you make the NGO but I knew that we had this hospital ship which was donated by by my husband actually he sailed it from France to Bangladesh and ex-husband but I knew that if I could take it there even if I just gave out paracetamol and took care of the women it would be something so you know I I didn't want to go reach anything global. Each life for me mattered, and each life even today matters.

If I leave that behind and I can't touch that life, it doesn't matter that we are now today giving direct services to 7.5 million people. It matters that I could not do anything with that life. And you're now at COP, Runa, as we were saying, it's taking place at the moment. what are you hoping to get out of COP or what COP can achieve? OK, so this is COP 30, right? COP 30 in Brazil, heart of the Amazon's, which are the lungs of this world.

And what do we see? We see many world leaders have not turned up. You know, they have sent representatives. We see decisions which will all be then referred back again. to the world leaders. And this has been a continuous game. So some of the cops, like the one in Paris, 10 years ago, there were some results.

But to actually make decisions and to follow up that decisions, to board people on that decisions, it means you cannot work in silos. And the cops, even till today, say that they're not working in silos, but they're still working in silos. The scientists are heard. but not integrated.

The civil society, heard, not integrated. So who makes the decisions, decisions, the politicians and the lobbyists and the companies? So we are still seeing that. But the point is, we come year in and year after. The civil society comes, not even having money perhaps to pay for a hotel which asks for $3,000 a night. You know, we cannot even access those hotels, the civil society. But we come.

We come because we learn. from each other. We come because even if it's that one drop of voice which can be given to the cop, we are there to give that and give that input and to show that you might be making the decisions, but the decisions are impacting us and the world and each individual which you are blind to. So I think there are good politicians. I think there are good people, even in the decision-making capacities, but they also need to have to have. have a bit more link to the ground to be able to have the commitment to carrying through what is committed at COP.

OK, Runa, it's been great speaking to you and to hearing your passion. Thank you so much. That's Runa Khan there, who was one of the winners of Prince Williams' Earthshot Prize just a couple of weeks ago and she's there in COP in Brazil. Now, Nicole Lecky is a writer and actor and sing a songwriter and was last on Woman's Hour for a sell-out one-woman play Superho that went on to become the BAFTA-winning TV series Mood, written by and starring Nicole.

Well, now she's the creator and one of the stars of Wild Cherry, series that begins on BBC One and IPlayer this Saturday. It's the story of a group of mothers and teenage daughters growing up in the super-privileged, imagined gated community of Richford Lake. Now, I'll speak to Nicole in a moment, but first, here's a bit of a flavour of the show.

We have a secret messaging out. We're like photos. Everyone else to pay. We're our friends here. Not all of us. Did I know who is snake here? Did you go to the teachers? She wants to ruin it for everyone because she's an anti-feminist.

A child has disappeared. Don't you dare to me have a parent, my daughter. I'm trying to protect her. We haven't done her. Nobody knew what they were capable of until it was too late. Well, that's pretty evocative there. Nicole, welcome back to Women's Arrow. It's great to see you.

Thank you. Thank you for having me back. I think that illustrates. I'm very lucky to have already seen four episodes of the show. I've got to say, I was intending to watch one and then ended up watching the four of them. You binged. I loved this. I did.

It's kind of a glamorous but dark world that you've created in this, as we said, this kind of privileged community. I think it will appeal to fans of things like Big Little Lies, maybe gossip girl. just tell me where the inspiration came from for this kind of odd community that they call the island yes they referred to it as the island so how I kind of you know originally came up with the idea for the show I did stumble upon this kind of gated community

just outside of London there are a few of them and I felt like I hadn't really seen that sort of wealth on television like British television I should say and I love authentic stories like I always want to set my writing my idea somewhere that's real so I kind of kept it in the back of my mind

and I was looking at these huge mansions and things and I was like God who lives here and at the same time I think I was reading lots in the news in articles about like teenage sexting rings and the pressures on teenage girls with social media and I sort of this story began forming in my head and I thought, well, what a better place than to sort of set this story

somewhere where they have everything, they have all this privilege and yet they're still facing these same issues. So that was the kind of genesis of the idea. And there are kind of two worlds, aren't there? There's the teenage girls world and then also the mothers. Yeah. And they're both fascinating. And I think what's very interesting is, you know, the mothers don't have it all sorted. They've got their own shoes. which of course we know as we grow up we have. Was it always important to you to tell this story of the relationship between mothers and daughters?

I think so because it's so complex. And for me, I really, I sort of sit in the middle of both generations, which is kind of interesting to me. You know, I have that lived experience of being a teenage girl. And now lots of my friends are having children and my sister has kids. And so I'm like having those conversations now. And I think that having, you know, being a woman and not growing up with social media

and then parenting teenage girls who are, it's such a different thing to experience. And I thought, well, how does that affect the relationship? And also what I do love about the show is, you know, the mums have their own kind of WhatsApp group that, well, they actually exclude my character from being him. But it's this like microcosm and sort of they're mirroring the girls and the girls are mirroring. their mothers and I find it just fascinating. Can you tell me a bit about the two teenage characters, the main ones, the best friends, aren't they, Grace and Allegra?

So Allegra is the daughter of Juliet and she is, you know, gorgeous, you know, really keen to be a kind of TikToker and wants to be kind of famous actually and wants to be like a content creator and she, you know, it's from a very wealthy, privileged family who've kind of lived in Richard Lake for years and then Grace is the daughter of Lorna and she Lorna's like self-made so Grace knows you know she knows what things cost you know she knows the price of things and she knows she has to really work hard at school to be there and they are friends but it's it's that like thorny dynamic that you can see in like female friendships where you know they really are friends they do really love each other

but they also end up hurting each other and trying to find in sort of trying to find out who they are as people they're also sort of hurting each other And they develop something called the catalogue, an app. And without going into it in too much detail, it kind of hosts pictures of them and their friends and boys pay to join it. Yes. And it can, you know, it seems to feel empowering at first to them,

but then things go a bit awry that, you know, I don't want to give any spoilers away. But I wonder where the idea came from because this app is also a secret, isn't it? They can seal it. Yeah, it's a ghost app. and so they do exist these ghost apps and I guess I think I read something about them

and when I started looking into it I was like well who are these apps aimed at like that you know on the front of it it looks like this sort of kids calculator and then so your parents don't know it's there and behind it you can share pictures and you can upload stuff and you can add your friends

and I thought that was frankly really bizarre that, you know, your parents could look at your phone and go, oh, that's just a calculator, but actually it's not a calculator. And then I had read a few different articles, I suppose, about these like WhatsApp groups where teenagers had been in and they'd been sharing photos

and it sort of evolved from there, really. And I'm sort of trying not to give a spoiler, but I think it's true. They feel empowered at the beginning. and then as lots of things, it does get out of their control and then it's like they try and kind of pull it back, but it's almost too late once the trains left the station. And it's quite interesting that the app was developed

because one of the characters, Allegra's boyfriend, shared a picture of her without her consent, which, you know, is an issue we've covered a lot on women's hour. And then she kind of feels like she likes that attention in a way. And, you know, that trying to get some of the, that power back, I guess, with what they do it? Yeah, it's, I guess when I set out to write the show, I was very keen sort of, I suppose,

looking back at my own teenage years where sometimes I really felt, you know, like a victim and very insecure, but then there are days, you know, I remember being with my friends at school and feeling like, gosh, like, we're on top of the world and we're really powerful and we're teenage girls. And I think you do see a lot in the news where,

or on television, in fact, where teenage girls are kind of always, victims and actually they don't feel like they're victims although they are caught up in something there is this other side of being a teenage girl where you're like oh wow you're like developing you're like oh actually i've got like power now and you start being noticed and i think that's something we probably don't talk about as much and what do you do then when you get that attention how do you handle that attention and i yeah i sort of just feel like we don't really look at that side of things and obviously adolescence was such a big hit wasn't it and this

kind of explores another side of that fascination with social media that younger people have. Was that something that you had in mind when you were developing this? The sort of in terms of... I was just thinking of whether the effect and the impact, I guess, the adolescence had, whether that was something that you were thinking this programme might have. It's hard, I think. When you're making a show, you're sort of making it in this. kind of vacuum and you don't I suppose I don't tend to think about like what the output will

be I'm just like so focused on the creation of it and now it's like I'm sort of thinking oh gosh like how timely it is and then when adolescence came and I was like gosh this must be kind of is in everybody's head sometimes you create something that you're like oh it is really like guys see and it's like what we're all talking about but at the time I was more just trying to get under the skin of something that I think I was just reading and I was like, I want to see that on television. I want to look at it. And I also didn't, I wanted to look at it in a way that is hard hitting.

But as you say, there is a glossiness to the show and it is really entertaining. So I always want to maybe slip in a message or something and have people have a takeaway, but still be kind of entertained at the same time. You appear in the show, as I was saying, as Gigi, who's a brilliant character. to Life Coach, American, narrates the series as well, we heard you earlier, but has some secrets. What's that like being the creator and then acting in something?

And I wonder what that's like for the other actors around you. Yeah, I mean, I feel like you get to have so much fun when you're acting in something you've created because you're always having to deal with the more exec kind of issues of the day and doing lots of rewrites and it's all very hard hitting and then when I get to put on my costume and I can kind of stand on set

I'm like, I'm just acting now, I'm just acting like, you know, I don't need to know about all the problems or all the things that are happening which honestly the bonds I think we formed on this show like with the other cast it, I guess they get so much of an insight when you're on set as an action and they can ask you so many questions

and you get to really play around with the scenes And so I think it's, I hope it's a good thing, actually, because I'd love to be on set with the writing and you just pick their brain as much as you want, really. I just wonder if they might feel a bit of pressure as well to get it right. Maybe. If you're there next to them. Yeah, maybe, which I think it's probably why it's important to, like, cultivate quite a safe environment. And I do think, obviously, we're working with younger actresses and some that, you know, had never worked before.

and like Amelia May for instance like this is her first job and she does an incredible job and I think we had such a close relationship that she could ask those questions and I think that that was really important I suppose to make sure they felt like they deserve to be there

and they could do a really good job because I know that feeling as a young actor you're like oh gosh it's really intimidating there's all these cameras there's so much going on but actually yeah I think all the cast kind of rallied together this. They are truly wonderful actually

all of the teenagers who are in it. We've been asking our listeners for their relationships, you know, their complex relationships that they might have with their mothers or indeed their daughters. Your mother died when you were younger. I wonder how that

affected you growing up. It's hard. It's hard to sort of when you don't have that mentor, that figure to kind of look up to you. So I think the other women in my family and also not not even just family members, you know. I've all sort of been drawn, I suppose,

to those older female figures in my life who then can kind of guide you. But that's probably the hardest thing. You're having to like navigate womanhood alone. And sort of, I mean, I have my older sister so we're super, super close, probably even more so because of that. But it is something I think when I was writing it,

I don't think I necessarily drew from my own personal experience. But definitely some of those like mother-daughter arguments, I think, yeah, it's not the same family dynamic as in the show. But, you know, I think we all can, I can remember those arguments and things and also the deep love you have. And that's why they're so complicated. Absolutely. It's been so wonderful talking to you, Nicole. Thank you for coming into the studio, Wild Cherry, premieres on BBC One and BBC Eye Player on Saturday. I just want to read out a couple of those comments we were asking about those.

relationships and what it's like going through those relationships when you're dealing with your own emotional issues, of course. This one here from Julia says there was no chance that my mother and I would understand each other. It said that a person's character is formed by the world they knew at the age of 20. My mother was 20 in 1925. I was 20 in 1969. In between came the Second World War. The generation gap was more of an unbridgeable chasm. She tried to instill in me the same values that were instilled in her by her Edwardian parents. needless to say it didn't work. That generation gap is of course very interesting

what Nicole was just saying about parents who don't have social media when they were growing up dealing with it with their child. Another one here from Rosie, she says, I wish I'd realize that when I was growing up and challenging my mother on every level that I would eventually turn into her to quote riot women, I'm just like my mother. Thanks so much for your comments to keep them coming in on 84844. Now have you had a chance to listen to the Woman's Hour Guide to Life. All six episodes of our debut series are available now, only on BBC Sounds. It's here to help you navigate the juggle of life, whether you want to nurture your friendships, keep the spark alive in your romantic relationship, or indeed build the emotional resilience your

children need to thrive. Well, each episode is packed full of advice like this about how to respond when your child has a tantrum. Your role is not to stop a tantrum and your role is not to avoid a tantrum. You actually don't want to avoid tantrums because everything we do to avoid a tantrum. Fine. I'll get you that chocolate park. Fine. You can watch one more TV. All a kid learns is my parent is as scared of my frustration as I am. That makes your kid more likely to have tantrums over time. And so don't avoid, don't end. Your job is actually simple. Keep your kid safe and keep your kid calm. I always use the mantra. I'm safe. This isn't an emergency. I can cope with this. I think whether you have a two-year-old or a 22-year-old, that's a good mantra

because it helps you separate their feelings from yours. You're like, wait, I'm okay. They're not. And then you just wait it out. You wait it out. And when your kid gets used to this, my parent doesn't avoid it. They don't end it. They keep me safe.

And they can stay calmer than me. They absorb our regulation. That's called co-regulation. And that's the thing over the course. I'm going to be honest. It is years that leads to their ability to be more resilient and not have such intense meltdown. Really useful advice there for. from clinical psychologist Dr. Becky Kennedy.

I'll be using some of that. To find that or any of our other installments, you can head to the Women's Hour feed on BBC Sounds. Scroll down to find the Guide to Life episodes. Really good listens. Make sure you go and have a listen to those. Now, a global review has found that high blood pressure in children has nearly doubled over the last 20 years,

driven by unhealthy diets and inactivity. The study found that more than 1 in 20 children across 21 countries under the age of 19 had high blood pressure in 2020. Let's talk about this now, Dr. Simon Russell from the UCL Great Ormond Street Institute of Child Health. And also he specialises in obesity research. And also we can hear from Nicola Ludlam Rain, who's a dietitian and nutritionist at Mummy Nutrition on social media. Welcome to you both. If I can start with you, Simon.

So this is a global study. We don't have specific data for the UK. but how widespread are these problems? Yeah, thanks for inviting me to come on. It's a pleasure to be here. No, these problems are widespread as highlighted by the study. As you mentioned, it's a global study. So this is an issue in developed countries like ours,

but also across the developing world. I mean, obesity itself is a huge issue. We know that about one in ten children who are starting primary school are living with obesity, and by the time children are leaving primary school, that figure is more like a one in five. We also know that about a third of children in England are physically inactive. And as you said, living with excess weight and being physically inactive are major risk factors for having high blood pressure or pre-hypertension.

I think the study also highlights, which of course are risk factors for having high blood pressure in adulthood, which in turn are huge risks for cardiovascular diseases and metabolic disease later in life. This was published in the Lancet, this study. There will be parents concerned reading these headlines. What role do they play? Well, I think we all play a role. I'd be cautious to put too much responsibility on parents themselves, because this is very much a systemic issue. There are things that parents can do. Parents can try and create more healthy home environments. That might entail keeping lots of fresh fruits, vegetables and whole grains and lean proteins, for example. Parents can try and keep a control of portion sizes. Sometimes there's

a culture of finishing everything on your plate, you know, small things like that. Parents can also try and instill healthy food and eating habits. That might be cooking at home more often, having regular meal times, drinking water and trying to avoid sugary drinks, for example, and also trying to make healthy food appealing. You know, presenting fruit and vegetables in fun ways might be one tactic. And just having a really good daily routine, getting, you know, plenty of sleep. On the physical activity side, I think parents can encourage, you know, daily movement. That doesn't have to be sort of vigorous exercise. It can be walking and cycling to school, trying to reduce sedentary behaviour. Screen time itself is not inherently

a bad thing, but too much of it can lead to physical inactivity. But as I said at the start, I'd be really keen to avoid shame and blame. I know Nicola would echo that for parents and for children themselves. And I think one of the really useful things about this study that you mentioned is that it's framing the issue in health terms and not in weight terms. I think focusing solely on children's weight can be extremely problematic and it can lead to individualising the problem rather than recognizing the health risks involved. And just before I come to you, Nicola, I just want to ask you, Simon, what's the role of government policy here then on this? And is it enough? Well, yeah, I mean, government policy is hugely important. But I actually think we've seen a real ambition and a step change in recent years in terms of recognising those systematic and systemic drivers. But it is all of our responsibility. All of society have a role to. play in this. I think industry also has a responsibility here. You know, industry primarily focuses

on profits and not health. And actually, we need to be able to make the healthiest choices, the easiest choices for families. And that would involve making healthier options more affordable, for example. Families can buy an awful lot of calories per pound when it's unhealthy processed foods. So I think, yes, the government has a role as to families, but as to industry. And as I said, I think the government has shown recognition of that in recent years. Nicola, if I can bring you in here, I wonder what you'd say to parents who might feel anxious hearing this, because the first thing I thought when I heard this news was, oh my goodness, am I giving my son healthy enough food? It's that straight away feeling that guilt as a parent.

Yeah, and we don't want to instill any more guilt on parents. I know what it's like we've got, we're duggling so many things. But I think this drives awareness and awareness can drive a need for knowledge. So I think we should be feeling empowered because a rise in obesity levels and a rise in hypertension, blood pressure isn't inevitable. We can do things about this to turn things around. Exactly like Simon said, we can start looking at diet and what parents can do. So parents are the gatekeepers of food being brought into the house.

And they are the ultimate role models. I think two of the big drivers for childhood obesity and also in teenagers and in adults, number one is fizzy drinks, sugary drinks, and the second with regards to hypertension is salty foods. So I wouldn't say do a dramatic overhaul, but have a look at those two elements. Are you having water as your primary drink? You're not bringing sugary drinks into the house. Are you making sure that the predominant main meals are cooked at home? You're not having things like too many salty foods like snacks or taste.

takeaways, ready meals, which contain a lot of salt. And then thirdly, focus on what we should be doing more of. So ask a simple question, are your children having their five a day? It's not five handfuls, an adult handful, it's five handfuls of a child's hand. So their portion sizes, like Simon said, are smaller. And fruits and vegetables contain potassium. So potassium and sodium, salt, they work on a bit of seesaw. So if you can up their whole foods, including whole grains like Simon's mentioned,

the problem will start to go away and you will help their blood pressure. If you're concerned, reach out to a GP, especially if you have got a family history of high blood pressure and just get it checked or your GP might recommend checkness at home so that you don't have that white host syndrome. So if kids or if adults are nervous about going to see their GP, that will drive their blood pressure up. So maybe testing at home might be something that a GP recommends. It's obviously what everything that you're saying makes so much. sense. But of course, we know that there are people out there who have to make decisions because of time restrictions. Also, children don't just eat at home, do they? They have school dinner. So it's

not entirely you that's putting all that food in your children's mouth. Yeah, I think school dinners aren't unhealthy overall. I think the problem lies when kids start using their own money and start eating out of the house and going out of school to the supermarket. Only yesterday I was doing some work outside a supermarket and I could see kids around the age of 16, 17, coming out and what they were choosing weren't the best choices. They all had a bottle of fizzy drink or a sports drink, which I don't think they're about to go play sport. They're about to go sit down for the afternoon. So there is some education to have and I was interviewing people about gut health and fiber and the number of people who haven't even heard of fiber or why it was good for them

or how much they needed, I thought was quite alarming. So I think there is this gap. I think sometimes on social media, we're in this bubble of people who are really interested or invested in their health. But actually, it's the people who aren't following dietitians and nutritionists on social media that we need to reach. So I think the government can play a role in driving campaigns like the Change for Life campaign, I think, was really good. So looking at food choices inside and outside the home and also that physical activity, it's not going down to the gym. It's not about weight loss for kids. It's about getting them moving in a fun way, and perhaps it's about weight maintenance whilst they grow into their weight. So, yeah, it's not weight loss, and it's not about getting kids to step on the scales because that could lead to disordered eating or eating disorders in the future.

I want to ask you both this question, but Nicola, let's start with you. How much impact do you think cost of living is having on diet? Because I know that you've written about ultra-processed food as well before. people are making choices because of how much things cost. Yeah, and I've worked in Bradford in really deprived areas for over a decade. So I do know what it's like. And I think the food environment plays a big role because even just walking to work or walking to school, you are literally going past fast food joint or these shops,

which all you can buy is these ultra-process foods, which are really high in fat, salt, sugar. So more can be done. With regards to cost of living, I mean, I try and share the awareness that actually you can buy frozen fruits and vegetables or tinned, and they're just as nutritious as fresh. I think it's an education thing. So in Bradford, we used to run three cook-along sessions because buying the food is only one part of the equation. It's knowing what to do with that food. It is the other part. The government are doing bits, for example, banning two-for-ones on

these high-in-fat, salt-sugar foods. But I think what we need to do is we need to bring down the cost of these whole foods. Especially, for example, lean meats and fish, because often it's cheaper to buy the more processed version. I think, for example, airfriars are coming into their own at the moment, and that might be one piece of kit that we help families to buy so that they're able to cook foods healthier, and they're not using, for example, a deep trap fire, or they're not relying on takeaways, they can cook a healthy meal in minutes. So I think cost is part of the equation, but knowledge and cooking access, even accessing

a fridge and a freezer for some families is an issue. Simon, what are your thoughts on that? Do you think that the cost of living is having a big impact on the choices that people are making? Oh, a huge impact. And I would echo a lot of what Nicola has laid out there. I'd be in total agreement, really. I mean, it is much, much harder for disadvantaged families, and there are more families who are struggling to get by.

We've talked about the access and availability of affordable, healthy food. It can be what is available, but also what's not available. You know, what is your distance to supermarkets that present affordable, healthy foods? We know that fresh fruit and veg can be more expensive. But I'd also like to add that there is this idea of time poverty. I would echo what Nicholas said about your facilities, even the cost of having a gas hob on. But if you're a single parent or if you're working multiple jobs, it's really hard to find the time to make fresh homemade food each day. And I think on the physical activity side as well, you might not have access to green spaces and parks to play in. You might not be able to

afford the local facilities to play sport. Your neighbourhood might not feel that safe for children to walk and cycle to school. So we're really touching on these systemic drivers that make it much, much harder for disadvantaged families or those struggling to get by. Dr Simon Russell and Nicola Ludlam Rain, thank you very much indeed for your thoughts on that and we have had a statement from Department of Health and Social Care spokesperson who said we are taking strong action to tackle the obesity crisis as part of our 10-year health plan which will shift the focus from sickness to prevention. This government is restricting junk food and drink advertisements on television before 9pm and online

to protect children from exposure to less healthy food and drink. This is expected to remove up to 7.2 billion calories. calories per year from children's diets. They go on to say, we are also limiting volume price promotions on less healthy foods, introducing mandatory reporting on sales of healthy food and bringing in a modernised food nutrient scoring system to reduce childhood obesity. Now, I think lots of us might still be getting over the celebrity traitors final last week, but did you hear our interview with a member of the murdering team who were getting rid of their fellow contestants? Sing a songwriter.

Pat Burns was one of the schemers alongside Jonathan Ross and of course the show's ultimate winner, Alan Carr. I hope you've seen her, otherwise I've supported it for me there. She joined us on the show last week and she's just released her new album, How to Be Human. Well, ahead of the show's final, she told us about the TV series and the themes that she explores in her music,

including grief as a neurodivergent person. Kat's been diagnosed with ADHD and autism. She lost her grandfather and suffered heartbreak at a similar time. She told Anita about the impact that that had. Losing people in two different ways, one to someone passing away and another to someone who's still alive, they're just not in your life anymore and you don't have access to each other in the same way. But two different things to really process. And I think from a neurodivergent perspective, the initial is the straight change of your routine. You know, that person's not in your routine anymore. That used to be your safe person. That was your person you could unmask around and you can't do that anymore. And you now have to rebuild yourself again. And you feel your feelings really intensely. I'm a massive cry.

I cry all the time, which I think is very healthy to do. But it was very intense during that period. And I wanted to just make little video diaries of how I was doing because whenever people go through hard times, they always talk about it once they're out of it. And they go, oh, you'll get through it. Everything's going to be fine. But they never document the process during

and what those specific thoughts you could be having are. And that's why I try to do with the album. That was Kat Burns there. And you can find that discussion on BBC Sounds. It's from Women's Hour on the 6th of November. We've been asking for your relationships. Maybe you're a daughter and your relationship with your mother or indeed the other way around.

Sophie says, I'm going through menopause and my daughter is a teen. My mother and I did the same and it was horrific. Thankfully, some self-awareness and open discussion between myself and my mum has helped with my daughter and my relationship. Thanks very much for your thoughts there, Sophie. And this other one here. No name on this one says, I'm still in a complex relationship with my mother,

even though she's in her 80s and I'm in my 50s. She's a huge cheerleader for my children and for me, but can't help being hyper-controlling in her desire to ensure the best. Sadly, that drives her to deeply cutting criticism and emotional manipulation, which undermines her good intentions. My mantra when I call or see her is to take a deep breath and be kind. That helps me to navigate away from the painful commentary or surly response and to try to focus on the good things she offers.

Thank you so much for all your thoughts. Do keep them coming in on 84844. Now, in 1290, England mourned the loss of the death of Queen Eleanor, beloved wife of King Edward I. Now, heartbroken, Edward decided to take her body on a 200-mile funeral cortege from Lincoln to London and erect an elaborate stone cross on each of the 12 places that her body rested.

Historian Alice Lockstone decided to research this medieval queen and the crosses, by walking this journey that the body took a mere 734 years later. And I'm delighted to say that she joins us to tell us more. Hi, Alice. Hi, thank you so much for having me. Great to see you. Why did you want to write a book about this journey? Well, you know, Eleanor of Castile was commemorated in one of the most extraordinary ways.

These 12 monuments were some of the most exquisite things built in the medieval period. And I was fascinated about what kind of. of woman could have inspired that. And as it turns out, Eleanor was one of the most formidable medieval queens we had. She went on crusades. She battled a civil war. She gave birth 16 times and built up an amazing independent wealth in her own right. And she's one of our forgotten women. And I wanted to write about her. I wanted to discover her. And I wanted to walk the footsteps of King Edward, who was a man battling grief, the loss of this. this great queen. And I mean, you were walking quite long distances, weren't you? And that was

partly to keep kind of in schedule with the journey that the body took. So how did you find it personally yourself doing that journey? Your mum joined you, some friends joined you. It was a great challenge. The first day was 28 miles and then it was 25 miles. So this is going from Lincoln to Grantham to Stanford to this village called Gettington. So about 70 miles in the first three days. So yeah, it was a real arduous thing. But, you know, this is the joy of walking. and of going on a pilgrimage. It's the kind of physical journey, but actually, you know, they talk about walking

as a journey for the body, but pilgrimage as a journey for the soul. So, you know, it is this kind of deep travel that is so wonderful. And it was pretty bad weather when you did it as well. Along the way, you were, of course, as you would, spotting history. And you started with a place where she died.

How did that feel? And was it different to how you imagined? Oh, it's such a powerful thing. You know, this is what's so much. wonderful about history is there are so many surprises. So this tiny little village near Lincoln called Harby, there's a churchyard there and you go to the back of the churchyard and you go to this rickety fence and you're looking at this field. And I knew that a manor house had once stood here. This was the manor house of Sir Richard de Weston and it was here that Eleanor died on the 28th of November

1290. And I was there exactly 734 years later. And knowing that that had happened there, that she took her final breath, that Edward would have been there, this grief-stricken man, this warrior king who was brought to this great emotion, was very moving. And, you know, I did this journey. I spent three weeks thinking about that. And then eventually it was at the tomb of Eleanor, where her actual body was. So I was there in Westminster Rapby by the shrine of Edward the Confessor. And knowing that it was Eleanor and I, her actual body was there.

And we were the closest people to each other in the whole world. And so it's a very powerful connection that you build. when you do these journeys. I was so interested to hear when I was reading the book about their relationship, Edward and Eleanor, because they married in their teens and arranged marriage. But it really was a love story, wasn't it? Absolutely. This is the great love story in England's history.

So Eleanor was from Castile, modern-day Spain, and at the age of 12, we think she was married to Prince Edward of England, who would become Edward I. But for the next 36 years, they were married, and they went through civil war and crusades and becoming king- queen and all these challenges together. And despite the fact it was a political arrangement, they were a great team.

And I think that's such a marker of love, you know, teamwork, being respectful of one another. And when Eleanor dies in 1290, it is the first time that Edward has been without her, his entire adult life. So for him, it's a real shock. And I guess his love is shown very clearly in these crosses, the elaborate crosses that he builds.

It's kind of, you know, that's kind of parallels with the Taj Mahal in a way. Absolutely. This is the Taj Mahal of England's story, for sure. And there were 12 crosses that were built. Three survive today. And the final one was Charing Cross in London. So at Trafalgar Square, what is now, Trafalgar Square, originally would have had the Eleanor Cross. But the name Charing Cross comes from this.

So Charing probably means a bend in the river. So bend in the River Thames and the cross comes from the Eleanacross, which once stood there. But what's so interesting is many of them don't survive. They weren't just kind of dusty, old forgotten monuments. They were potent symbols of power, of royalty of Catholicism. And the one at Charing Cross was torn down in the Civil War. But it's still from that location that all measurements to London are made. So if you type into Google Maps now, take me to London, it will take you to the original site of the Eleanor Cross.

Amazing, isn't it? As you said, there are, what, three left. One of them is in Gettington, in Northamptonshire. Tell me about that. When you went to that, what was it like? Well, yeah, so for the first kind of three or four days when I was with my mum, there wasn't much to see. You know, lots of the history had been disappeared in some ways.

But it was thrilling eventually after 70 miles to get to this tiny little village called Gettington. And it's a really quaint little place. You know, there's a little bridge there. It's a medieval bridge. the pub, the church, and in the heart of it, it's swirling, everything swirls around this magnificent monument of Queen Eleanor. And there's three statues of her there

and the coats of her coat of arms. And for the people of Gettington, her legacy is very much alive. I like how you talk about, I think it was that cross in particular, where the children are kind of hanging off it at the end of school and it's just part of their community.

I've got to talk about Northampton because it's my birthplace. and I must have driven around the Queen Eleanor Interchange more times than I would like to mention and I never thought about this Queen Eleanor so thank you for bringing that knowledge to me you know she's still really there isn't she? Absolutely and you know this is what's so wonderful about this journey

is that people have commemorated Eleanor and she is remembered you know this is a book about a life but also a legacy and this ever-changing tapestry that constantly has a all of these threads going through it, that we're all connected to the past in all these ways. So in Northampton, there's this enormous roundabout called the Queen Eleanor Interchange. And on this roundabout, the medieval Eleanor Cross stands. But in other locations, in Dunstable, there's a statue of Eleanor, and there is the Eleanor Cross shopping precinct. In Stony Stratford, there's an enormous mural of Eleanor.

In Stamford, there's a very modern version of the Eleanor Cross, which is very pointy. and that's in the sheep market. On the underground platform of the Northern Line at Charing Cross, there's an enormous mural created by the artist David Gentleman, which shows the original Mason. So it's really all around us in very surprising ways. As you say, she was such a strong woman and also really changed things for queens that followed her

because she was also pretty savvy in terms of money. That's it. And she built up her independent wealth is the best way to think about it. And she is, she was a formidable woman. If she was alive today, she would be on. on Dragon's Den. And, you know, she would be a kind of powerhouse and she would probably be a hot shot lawyer or, you know, a big business woman. And I think she was impressive for her time. And it's very important to think about these people in context of their time. But, you know,

something that Eleanor would be surprised about when we think about her. And I think this is an important point for all women in history is that when we look at her family tree, there's Eleanor and then there's six lines of her six children. But for her, that would betray, that would, you know, it wouldn't represent an enormous amount of trauma that she went through because she gave birth 16 times and she lost 10 children and some of the, you know, lots of them died maybe, you know, as children and, you know, so she went through a lot of difficulty in her life and we often forget those moments because the children didn't survive. Yeah, absolutely. Why do you think she isn't making it into, you know, school education

because she seems to be somebody that we should be remembering and honouring. Well, she represents so many figures from history who are fascinating, who we never talk about. And I think we do have a very narrow view. We have a very few particular characters, the Anbelin's, the Henry the Eighths, the Willie and the Conquerors of history, who are fascinating and wonderful for the own reason. But there are so many. We have only just scratched the surface. This is the top of the iceberg. And in all of my wider work, I'm really just trying to show all of these stories.

and in this book I'm really trying to demonstrate that actually wherever you live there is amazing history on your doorstep there are amazing figures in Stanford one of the great figures is Daniel Lambert who was at his time one of the heaviest, the largest men to have ever lived and he's a real hero of Stanford

but no one really knows for him but it's endless fascinating characters and I think we should do more to pick up this local history and celebrate the things that we can find on our own doorstep Just finally, in terms of pilgrimage, you mentioned it earlier, was that was that something that was in your mind that's what you were doing? And are you kind of trying to bring that back? Absolutely. We are in a pilgrimage revival as we speak.

It was banned in the 1530s during Henry VIII. But Pilgrimage Trust was set up in 2014. And it's amazingly popular in this age of digital detox, searching for digital detox and, you know, improving our mental health and being close to nature. Pilgrimage is the answer. So that was last year that you did. that 200-odmile walk. Any plans to commemorate this year at all? Oh, well, walking has now become part of my daily habits. You know, I've taken friends walking, live in London, but I've

made an effort to take people out of London just for a day. You know, a pilgrimage can be as long as you like. It's not how far you travel, it's how deeply you travel. So it can be something that you can interweave into your daily life. And I guess what do you think, what are you hoping that people take away from the book if they read it? What I hope people take away, is that they have thousands of questions and they are, you know, I am just hoping to spark people's curiosity about history. I hope that they read this and think,

oh, I really want to go and see that cross in Gettington. Oh, when I go back to Northampton, I'm going to stop at the Queen Ellen Exchange park for a bit and have a quick look. Or I want to have a go at being a stonemason. I want to do a stone carving course. Or I want to go and have a look at Lincoln Cathedral or whatever history there is in my own village.

That's what I want people to be inspired to do. And I really hope that people get that message from the book. It is really inspiring. and I absolutely, the next time I drive on the Queen Eleanor Interchange, I will have a very different thought in my mind. Alice, it's been an absolute pleasure to speak to you. Eleanor by Alice Lockstone is out today. Now, you can join me again tomorrow.

I will be joined by two women, one Palestinian, one Israeli, who are both members of the Parent Circle. Now, it's a group where bereaved members seek peace and reconciliation over revenge. They'll reflect one month old. from the ceasefire. Also, Diana Vickers and composer Rebecca Brewer will be telling us about their new all-female musical about the Pendle Witch Trail. So do try to join me tomorrow at 10 o'clock. But for now, all that's left to say from me is thank you very much for listening. That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time. I'm Ragnar O'Connor from BBC Radio 4 and the History Podcast. This is the magnificent O'Connor's. In war-torn London, a man is murdered.

The police arrest 23-year-old Jimmy O'Connor. He's sentenced to death, but Jimmy is my dad. For 80 years, my family has fought to prove his innocence. And now we're making one final attempt to uncover the truth. But are we ready for what we'll find? The Magnificent O'Connor's. Listen first on BBC Sounds.