Woman's Hour - 14/04/2026

Episode Date: April 14, 2026

Women's voices and women's lives - topical conversations to inform, challenge and inspire.

Hello, I'm Neula McGovern and welcome to Women's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Well, an inquiry has found that the Southport murders could have been prevented if the killer's parents and authorities had acted in the years leading up to the attack. The findings have been called harrowing, with 67 recommendations on what needs to change to prevent such an attack happening again. We're going to discuss what one lawyer believes needs to be the first steps of change.

Also this hour, caring for those with young onset dementia. One in 12 people with dementia in the UK are diagnosed in their 40s or 50s. We're going to hear from one young woman who cared for her mother about the impact such a diagnosis has upon the whole family. Also today, walking. We're going to bring you to Staffordshire, where I go walking with a mother and baby. group who found great support and connection by getting outdoors together. Plus, fans of Granchester and Only Fools and Horses will be happy to know that the actor, Tessa Peake Jones, will be with me in studio.

She is in this charming new play called Invisible Me about life at 60 with all the unexpected transitions that it can bring. And I'd like to hear from you, what surprised you about turning 60? You can text the program. The number is 84844 on social media We're at BBC Women's Hour Or you can email us to our website For a WhatsApp message or a voice note

The number is 03700, 100444 Maybe you have some advice for those that haven't reached there yet Maybe you have some wisdom if you passed it a while ago What surprised you about turning 60? Also, we're going to bring you a little of the music Of the first black British woman Who at the age of 67 is about to be inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

Can you guess who it is? Yes, it's Chaudet. That coming up a little bit later. But let me begin with the public inquiry into the killing of three young girls in Southport that found that catastrophic failures by the parents of the Southport killer and multiple agencies

meant clear chances to prevent their murders were missed. Alice de Silva Aguier, who was nine, Elsie Dot Stancoe, who was seven, and B.B. King, who was six, were killed during, an indiscriminate knife attack at a Taylor Swift-th-themed dance workshop on the 29th of July of 2024. The inquiry chair, Sir Adrian Fulford,

said the sheer number of missed opportunities for intervention with the killer is striking. Chris Walker is the lawyer representing the girls' families, and he said he hoped the reports released marks a genuine turning point, and he supports calls for a change in the law, as he told the today program earlier this morning. There should be individual criminal accountability for the parents. I accept that the law and the legal process which we currently have,

it makes that very difficult. And I know one of the recommendations within the report is to change that, which is pleasing. But thereafter, I wrote several months ago to those agencies I mentioned requesting disciplinary proceedings. That includes the senior managers and also the people at the Colface. And what kind of replies did you get to that? The predominant replies of the moment is we need to wait until the inquiry report is out. It is now out. I will be revisiting that with them all individually.

And consequently, if those disciplinary proceedings have not concluded to our satisfaction, then I know the names of those people. I know the names of the people who failed, and I will state them publicly if need to. And I will also rehash the failures and go through it all in a public environment so that the world will know of their failings. Chris Walker there speaking to my colleague Anna Foster. Well, K.Len Galaher, KC, is a human rights lawyer. She formerly sat as a coroner in England

and is the former Ireland special rapporteur on child protection. I spoke to her this morning and I asked her for her reaction to Chris Walker's comments. Yeah, well, he's quite right to raise both the issue about individual failures but also the issue about multi-agency and systemic failures. I mean, this report, the Phase 1 report by Sir Adrian Fulford, really lays bare in great detail, just the sheer level of failure that occurred here. And it's unequivocal. It finds that this was not a random act of violence.

It wasn't a bolt from the blue. This was not only a predictable attack, but a preventable attack. And it's very clear that there is blood on the hands of multiple individuals here. And I think the issues raised by one of the lawyers there for the Marie families is quite, Right. Let's get into some of the specifics. There was talk of significant parental failures with the killer's parents permitting knives and weapons

to be delivered to their home and failing to, and I quote, report crucial information in the days leading up to the attack. The report asks the Law Commission to review the merits of legal reform concerning whether a person or indeed a parent or a guardian has a responsibility to report the criminality of someone including their own child. talked about by Chris Walker. Do you think this would be a welcome change in your opinion? Yes.

Now, I appreciate that this is a very difficult area. And the finding from Sir Adrian Fulford is clear that certainly the parents didn't do what they morally ought to have done and there was a moral failure. And he is unequivocal that if they had done what they should have done, the attack would not have occurred. I'm particularly troubled by the failures by the father. the significant obstructions to agency engagement,

the ready excuses and defending of this man's actions. But the really key point in the report for me is the failure to report the clear escalation in risk in the days immediately leading up to the attack. And just so people understand what we're dealing with here, this isn't parents turning a blind eye to something which was vague and couldn't have been predicted. the parents in that final week came into possession of information

revealing that their son was accumulating deadly weapons and intended to carry out an attack and they did not report it. So that's the factual background here. And that's why I think this recommendation that this be looked at by the Law Commission is quite right. And also importantly, there's an immediate recommendation that the Youth Justice Board issue guidance to parents in relation to possession of weapons by their children.

And I think that's a very important immediate step which needs to be taken as well as the longer term investigation by the Law Commission that's recommended. So with that specific on weapons possession, what has been recommended? So it's been recommended that the Youth Justice Board issue immediate guidance to deal with the issue of parents becoming aware of their children having weapons. That's important. There's also a recommendation, in fact, there's another recommendation which is quite important, which relates to the failure to scrutinize online activity here for him because from as early as 2019, bearing in mind that this fatal attack occurred in July 2024. So from as early as five years previously, he was known

to have searched school computers for materials about school shootings, terrorist attacks, graphic violence. And although there were three prevent referrals, none of those were adequately pursued. And by the time of the attack, he downloaded an Al-Qaeda training manual. He'd acquired an arsenal of weapons online. He'd manufactured ricin, all from his bedroom, all without parental controls in place at home. And that is the factual background which led to the chair concluding not only that issue about parental failures, but also the failure to engage with his online life was a significant failure that hampered agencies from identifying and addressing the risk that he posed. So that's part of the complex background here, which meant there were multiple failures.

and what's vitally important and what all of the families and the survivors' families have been emphasising is the importance of learning lessons immediately and steps being taken to prevent something like this dreadful occurrence happening again. And of course many have said that they feel

this story has been told previously when other actions weren't taken just to mention with prevent for those that are not familiar at the UK government multi-agency programme designed to stop people from becoming terrorists or supporting terrorism. But it does bring up everything that you mentioned, Kaelan, brings up other questions in the sense of monitoring internet activity. Exactly how would you do that when it comes to parental responsibility or moral responsibility as it's described.

There must be so many different levels that from realizing a child is owning a weapon to that of something that is a much more complex situation which you described in the days leading up to this attack. I mean, surely it would require quite a complex legal structure to be able to address these various issues that you're talking about. Of course, and that's why, although Sir Adrian Fulford has made a series of recommendations for some immediate actions, there's a recognition that the issue of parental responsibility in this area is complex. Now, I think it's less complex in the immediate days leading up to it. That's why I highlighted the fact that the parents were expressly aware at that point

of the possession of weapons and the intention to carry out an attack. So that's quite different to the earlier background. There's also a focus by a number of the lawyers representing some of the families I see today on the issue about online retailers and the possession of weapons and regulation in relation to that. But could I just flag one other core issue here? A key issue for me, and this is something I've seen again and again, as a lawyer representing bereaved families in a range of context, also sitting as a coroner,

and also in a different country in my former role as the Special Rapporteur for Child Protection in Ireland. One of the issues that is raised here in this report and laid bare is the inadequacy of information sharing between multiple different agencies. And there's a very clear finding here that there was essentially a failure of the multi-agency model for identifying and managing risk. Now, for many years, the idea had been that with the multi-agency model, you in fact have more people watching out for risk and more people taking steps to minimise risk.

But what we see here, and it's a very, very familiar picture to those of us who work in this field, what we see here, in fact, is that there was a total absence of risk ownership. So you had no single agency accepting responsibility for assessing and managing the risk that he posed. And throughout the inquiry, witnesses were asked during the hearings who was responsible. and there was no consistent answer. And that's why the chair has described that what followed was, and I'm using his words, an inappropriate merry go-round of referrals, assessment, case closures and handoffs. And he identifies that as the single most important conclusion of phase one.

And I agree with him. You know, here we see police, social services, mental health, schools, of those agencies, seeing red flags and inappropriate communication, inadequate communication between each other and ultimately no one grasping the nettle and dealing with the very, very real and immediate risk that this man posed. Because the teenager's father

did get in touch with the police and other agencies a number of times over his behaviour, not in those days leading up to that tragedy as we mentioned, but reports indicate at least four or five significant interactions with the police. So

obviously there's each of those agencies where questions will be asked and people will try and figure out exactly what went wrong. But does it require something else? You know, I heard somebody mentioned, like, nobody had a helicopter view of what was happening. And I'm just curious with your expertise, is that even possible? Yeah, so I think this is a key issue,

which is going to be looked at also in phase two of the inquiry. So yesterday you had the publication of phase one, and by spring 2027, there's going to be phase two completed. and that's Sir Adrian Fulford looking at the adequacy of the identification and managing of the risk posed by individuals who are fixated with extreme violence. So I think there's going to be a deep dive into some of those issues within the next year and by Sir Adrian Fulford and team, which is very welcome. But my view is here that there were very clear findings that there were repeated red flags and red flags in themselves just individually. but the cumulative picture wasn't seen and what ended up happening

with the multi-agency model which is supposed to in fact give you that helicopter view instead it meant that information and critical intelligence that he represented a real risk of harm was in fact diluted and not acted upon across agencies

can I just give you one example which is very stark in the report so in March 2020 so two and a half years before the fatal attack he was found with a knife on a bus and he told people he told police expressly that he wanted to stab someone. Now, at that point, had the agencies dealing with them

even a basic understanding of his risk history, in all probability he would have been arrested, a search of his home would have uncovered rice and seeds, downloaded terrorist material. Now, that's one of the red flags, which is very stark when you read through the report. And that's not only a failure to have a kind of helicopter view between agencies. There's a very real question about the adequacy of the steps

that were taken just in that individual instance. But I think the whole concept of the multi-agency model was supposed to be to give that helicopter view. And I'm afraid what I've seen repeatedly as a coroner and as a bereaved acting for bereaved families, repeatedly what I see instead is that simply no one takes responsibility and you get a dilution instead of a maximization between agencies. And that's got to change.

That's what was supposed to change with the Children Act 2004, you know, over 20 years ago. and there have been a whole series of attempts to ensure that you have that fulcrum and that core responsibility rather than a dilution between agencies. And I think what's going to come out in phase two is critical to look at how we ensure that real lessons are learned here from these tragic deaths and from the terrible attacks on those who survived. Kaling Galaher, KC there. Thanks very much to her as we talked about Southport.

I want to turn to dementia next. you might well know somebody with it. There's nearly a million people diagnosed in the UK. Dementia is a syndrome, so a group of related symptoms associated with an ongoing decline of brain functioning. There are many different causes of dementia and many different types. But we do know that two-thirds of those diagnosed are women. But maybe we tend to think of dementia as a condition that only affects older people. But actually about one in 12 people with dementia in the UK are diagnosed in their 40s and their 50s.

This is known as young onset dementia, where symptoms present below the age of 65. So what happens to families when dementia strikes at that point? Well, someone who knows about this only too well is Amelia, who as a teenager, cared for her mother. Sadly, last year her mother died. Amelia joins me in studio to share her story, along with Amy Pagan, who's from the charity Younger People with Dementia. As they launch a new campaign, dementia doesn't care. and I want to highlight the difficulties of caring for those who were previously a linchpin of the family.

Amelia, you're very welcome. Thank you so much. I'm so sorry for your loss of your mother who had dementia, as we mentioned. Can you take us back to when you first noticed symptoms in her? Yeah, of course. So, yeah, it wasn't the typical symptoms that I think people often think of in regards to memory, which is typical with older people.

So with my mum, one of the big things was she was a very good driver. She could like parallel park anywhere in London and suddenly she was really struggling to drive and it was particularly at night with the lights. So initially we kind of thought, oh, she's just, you know, it might be a vision problem or she's just feeling about anxious about driving at night

and that was fine. And then it got worse and worse and it ended up being, you know, I'd be driving with her and she'd be swerving towards the curb and it was very, yeah, dangerous and it was more so things to do with vision. And also, yeah, she was feeling very anxious, very paranoid. She was beginning to forget. She was very independent. She, very independent person. She nannied. What age was she at this

stage? She was late 40s at this point. And you? 14, probably. So yeah, she would have been 47 around there. So it was just little things where my like very, very highly independent mom very you know she was cleaned the house it was the pride and joy she looked after me and my little sister while my dad was at work and it was her whole life suddenly we were kind of like oh there's something going wrong here because my mum who's so independent and so sure of herself suddenly was feeling really not so she went to the doctor yes but it was really difficult to get it was really tough so we went to the doctor obviously being like there's something going on here And the initial thing was it's likely menopause because obviously she was around that age.

And we were like, okay, fine. We were doing HRT. And then it wasn't getting any better. And also there weren't any other symptoms typically of menopause. So we were sort of thinking this doesn't sound quite right. And then, yes, there was menopause. And then it was anxiety. It was dyspraxia.

This was over until her diagnosis, it was about four or five years. It was a very long-winter process. So you did eventually get a diagnosis. We did. How did that feel? That felt honestly like an absolute relief. Really? Because I think if it wasn't what we were expecting,

it would have been heartbreaking. But me and my dad for so many years had been absolutely convinced. We were like, this isn't typical of anything other than dementia. And we'd been so certain and my mum was so understandably in denial and it was causing so much friction in our household because we were, me, my sister and my dad were caring for her

and we were trying to bring her to doc's appointments. She was completely against the idea of going to them because she was like, there's nothing wrong with me. I'm absolutely fine. This is ridiculous. Of course I don't have dementia. It could never happen to me at this age especially. And then when we finally got diagnosis in 2022,

so symptoms started around 2017. It was very long process. my mum, I think it kind of hit her like a ton of bricks even though she probably knew. So I remember her being very upset. But me and my dad, like, I have memories of the day. It was like completely unlike you'd expect on the day that like my mom got diagnosed of dementia. There's like a photo of us outside with sandwiches from like Marks and Spencer just because it was that thing of finally now we can start the process of getting support. And also you're getting support and people believing you or kind of having some sort of framework.

But what did it mean in? terms of caring duties and managing what your mother, of course, as I mentioned, Lynchpin there, I feel is probably the proper word. She was holding it all together until this hit. Yeah. So as a carer, it was really, yeah, it was a weird transition because like I say, it was me and my sister and my mum was the one who, you know, if we forgot a book at school, I'd be like, Mom, can you bring in my book, my maths book, I'm going to get in trouble. And she was always in motion doing that kind of thing. And then, it was suddenly something I mentioned to my dad, I was talking to me yesterday, was the fact that it then became in the house that she always cleaned.

We were having to clean it without her knowing we were cleaning the house. So it would be like, oh, mum, why don't you go out with your friend? And then me and my dad and my sister would deep clean the house. She had come back and then she'd, you know, wipe up the surfaces and she'd feel like she still had that independence. So that was a caring aspect in terms of caring for her dignity and her independence. and making her still feel like she had like a real purpose. It's mental gymnastics, though. Totally.

Like, yeah, no better word for it. It's completely, I mean, I was speaking to, I was speaking to Amy earlier about the thing of, you're constantly, you know, one of the big things was, I mean, you lose all abilities, really, in terms of like getting dressed and all that kind of thing. And towards the end, I think also with being her oldest daughter, she felt very happy with me helping her,

because it was that thing of being a woman and having her daughter versus her husband, who my dad's, has been an absolute lifeline through all this, but having in her mind like this figure dominating or whatever, and it ends up being, I'd help her get dressed, and I'll see her, I was saying to Amy, you'd, finally, my mum's dressed, brilliant. I go in the bathroom, I'll go and grab you, you know, perfume. I walk back in, oh, mommy, you're completely undressed again. Let's, let's do that again.

Okay, go back and get your perfume. Oh, again, okay. And it's that, oh. But you're also parenting your parents. Completely. Which was a really weird process because in one way it was awful and it was horrible and disorientating

because, yeah, totally it was me sitting with her and regulating her emotions and everything. But also then when she died, it was that loss of purpose almost where I was like, I cared for her so much and we all did and we all looked after her and you get glimpses of her and you'd make a laugh and all that kind of thing

and then suddenly that was gone and it really, yeah, in the last year we've all been trying to navigate that lack of, yeah, purpose. Purpose, yeah. I mean, it's been also as you're a young woman and you talk about this starting when you were 14, it's been a big proportion

of your life as well. Again, I am sorry for your loss. Amy, let me bring you in here. You know, Amelia's talk about battling to get a diagnosis her mother's refusal to engage with the condition. How common is what Amelia is telling us? It's so common. We hear it from a lot of the people that we support

that it took such a long time for them to receive the diagnosis. And we know that post-diagnostic support is so important. You know, with the services that we provide, it's so important in making sure that the carers have that respite while the person that they're caring for is with us. So yeah, it happens a lot and unfortunately, on average, it takes twice as long for someone living with young onset dementia to get diagnosed as it does for someone living with dementia 65 plus. Any difference between men and women? So with young onset dementia, there are an estimated 41% of women living with young

onset dementia. So in terms of the statistics, it means that more men are living and diagnosed with young onset dementia. So that means that there's more women who are caring for their partners. Because I'm just wondering, because we cover women's health a lot, even more on tomorrow's program as well, but it can be difficult to get a diagnosis for anything, you know, that sometimes they feel they're met with silence or questions in a way at times that men are not within the medical system. And I don't know how it relates to this, but it's just something that comes to my mind. I'm wondering for you, Amelia, I mean, how did it affect your life?

I mean, they are crucial years in school, for example, your studies. How did you manage? So it's, yeah, a question I think about all the time. Honestly, it was a thing, it was just like you say, a complete balancing act. And also, I think I managed because you had to. And it was a thing of, you know, I just wanted to help in the house and whatever. but the impact I think in the last year I've been able to reflect on so much more

since my mum's been gone because I think it all suddenly comes flooding to you when you haven't got the immediate person that you're caring for and dealing with and it was so tough because I think it was all those years where I often say to people as a daughter it's like the years almost that I would imagine

I'd become closer with my mum and that I would start going out with her or like going out in London or being a grown daughter. Totally. And it's that point I see a lot of my friends at where they're so close with their mums now. And that's that classic thing of my best friends, my mum and all that. And I think the fact that it started when I was around the age that I was almost on the cusp of getting that,

that's a constant thing now where it was so tough watching. Yeah, people be, you know, that they're like, oh, I've had a tough day at school. I'm going to go home and my mum's cooking me dinner. I mean, my mum are going out. And I was thinking, I'm going to go home and, you know, help make dinner and help clear up. And my mom's probably going to have a go at me because she thinks, I'm being awkward, but I'm just trying to help. And, you know, if we went to the theatre,

it was that thing of trying to get her sat down and then she'd get annoyed because it was just a total balancing act. I suppose it must give you, Amelia, such compassion and maturity, however, for others that are going through anything tough. Yeah, no, I definitely think so. I mean, at the moment, I'm at university and I have a lot of friends who are going through,

not similar things, but things in terms of grief or issues. with parents or family or illness or whatever. And yeah, I think it's given me, I was saying to Amy earlier, I was not a patient person before this. And it's really like that silver lining is I feel I have such a awareness now of like people never in a million years would have looked at me and thought I was going through what I was.

The campaign is called dementia doesn't care, which I think Amelia is illustrating so beautifully. If any of our listeners are living with a family member with suspected or diagnosed young onset dementia, what would you say to the moment? I would say make sure that you get that support. There are support services out there and are charity support people diagnosed in Berkshire,

Surrey Heath, North East Hampshire and Farnham currently. So to have those support services, they are a lifeline. And I really think that if you suspect symptoms in someone that you know or in yourself, it's so important to get that support because it's just so important. I'm just going to also mention to people there is the BBC Action Line

with links to help and support if this is something that you've been affected with. I know you've released a little movie as well that I was watching for dementia doesn't care as part of that launch about the relationship between a daughter and her father as he has young onset dementia. What would you say, Amelia, after living through it?

You know, maybe some advice or insight that you could give to people? I think just like you were saying get as much support as you can I think like for us the point in time where it was so unbelievably difficult was when we were it just we felt isolated

and I think yeah reaching out and getting that support was when it became just that bit more manageable having yeah organisations like younger people with dementia and how could how did they help you younger people of dementia like you would say it was that the respite I think I was it was it was the the fact that we could, you know, drop off my mum. And even if when it was things like, like visual things like the,

there were like ponies and things that she would see. And it just brought her a sense of like ease and gave us that sense of respite knowing that not only was she, in a loving sense, out of our hands so that we could have that respite. She was somewhere completely safe with people who recognised. And respite must be so important, Amy, for families that are going through this. Yeah, absolutely, because you can imagine for a family when they're living with someone who's been diagnosed at a younger age, it really changes the family dynamics.

And for a partner who is still working and then their partner potentially has to give up work because of their diagnosis, they're kind of left with a feeling of what do I do now? What is my purpose? And to have support services where they can go and be in a safe environment, like Amelia said, going. to go and see the horses doing really fun things like we've done climbing we've done anything you can think of to be honest just doing age appropriate activities that keep people busy and around people that they can relate to it's a massive sense of relief for the families and we often hear from people that the services are a lifeline because they can go out and get a coffee or they can go out and just get the shopping done without that stress and especially

if they've got children, being that primary caregiver of their partner and their children, the stress that is put on the person caring, it's immense. So to be with others that understand as well, the campaign is dementia doesn't care. Amelia, thank you so much for sharing your story with us

and Amy for coming in as well. That is Amelia and Amy Pagan is from the charity Younger People with Dementia. Now, I mentioned a little earlier that I'd bring you a little of the singer Shaday. she's become the first black British woman who will be inducted into the rock and roll hall of fame class of

2026. She's known for her so many songs, right? What about smooth operator? Your love is king, the sweetest taboo. She blended jazz, soul, R&B. The sound is really her own. When you hear a Sharday song, you know it's a Sharday song. Many people found it so deeply personal, resonated with so many across four decades.

So her first album, Diamond Life, I remember that one, arrived in 1984, and immediately positioned Shadei as a major new presence in pop and soul music. Why don't we take a moment to listen to some of those classics? A little bit of Shade there feels very rude to interrupt her. 67, as I talk about 60s today on the programme, and she will be inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Right, here's some of your messages coming in since I asked.

What surprised you most about turning 60? Here's one. I turned 60 on the 4th of March this year, and I'm surprised how little it bothers me. In fact, I literally feel like the best I've ever felt. As a woman, I think you always have to feel, you have to prove yourself one way or another, work, motherhood, grandmotherhood, wife duties. But this calmness has just come over me.

Like, I just cannot give damn anymore. Take me or leave me, nothing to prove. I just want to live my best life, and I am. Added bonus, you're still considered young, says Caroline. On the other point, Pauline got in touch, says, what surprised me most about turning 60? the sheer number of flyers I got through the post

regarding funeral plans. 844 if you would like to get in touch. Now, here's another chance to hear an inspiring story. One, in a joyful series about women helping the planet or others in their community. Maybe these longer days

may be inspiring you to get out walking a little bit more. They do me, but also you might remember this a little while ago. of our woman's hour listeners, Thomasina got in touch. And she invited us to visit her mother and baby walking group called Blaze Trail. So I laced up my walking boots and took a trip to Staffordshire. There I joined a group of women and their babies for a walk at Stone Common Plot.

I wanted to find out why they love to get out of nature with their babies and other women. What does it do for them? Why is it just so wonderful? So I'm Coriana and I'm leading today's walk with my one-year-old son, Nico. We started walking with blazed trails when Nico was about eight weeks old. I do about three or four walks a week, all in different locations with different groups. Everyone okay. Let's go, let's go.

Your baby's fast asleep. He loves walking. He loves sleeping. He does love sleeping as well. But as soon as he's in the backpack, he generally falls asleep. I think it's the rocking motion. And he's so used to it now. he just loves going for a walk.

So I was just making our way off the hill and I stopped to chat to Katie. Nice to meet you. Hello, lovely to meet you as long are, Leila. You helped found this organisation that so many women are taking part in today. Why? When I started my first little walking group where I lived, I had no idea it was going to turn into

a sort of national community of people getting outdoors. I still feel a little bit surprised by it all. But it started because I wanted to get out with other parents. I'd always love the outdoors. Had you just taught a baby or bring me to your personal situation? Yeah, so I'd had my first baby. I knew I wanted to get outdoors. I'd always love doing that beforehand.

And I just wanted to do it with other people. But I couldn't find a local walking group near me. So I started my own. And before I knew it, I had lots of people coming along. And then when I had my second baby, I realized, like, this was the thing that parents really wanted. So I started up again, and it's just gone. And there, we've got over 15,000 members now of our community all around the country, just getting

out for walks together. What's the biggest draw, do you think? It is about the outdoors. It's about being outdoors together and, yeah, being in nature. But I think the main thing is about finding solace with each other and sort of parenting together. Particularly, I suppose, those early months. Yes, yeah, when you're all really tired and you haven't slept and you don't know quite

what you're doing with this new baby, I think, yeah, having somewhere that you can come together, share all of that, the trials and tribulations and get some tips, but mostly you kind of, yeah, have some friends. So when you look at this group of women that are ahead of us right now, how does it make you feel? To know, like you started this?

Yeah, to be honest, quite emotional. I really can't believe that there were women around the country getting out as a result of something I started a while back as a sleep-deprived parent. It makes me feel really, really proud and, yeah, emotional. Yeah. Moving into another part of Stone Common Plot now,

a narrower path with leaves that are firmly packed underfoot. It's quite fairy tale looking, and I want to go and meet another of our walkers, Natasha. So you're out with the gang today. How does it feel? It's great. It's absolutely beautiful day. This is my favourite weather, like sunny and frosty. And what is it that you get from it?

What I really love about Blaze Trails is I feel like me, not just mummy. I can have an adult conversation that's more than just, how's your baby sleeping? Have you started weaning? You know, we have those conversations, but I can also be Natasha and I can chat about, oh, I'm feeling rubbish today or this happened or like those, you know, adult conversations that I think you often lose when you become a parent because everything becomes so focused. on the child that as the parent, you get lost. And I find that I get found when I come on these walks.

Such a lovely way to put it. I was speaking with one walker who said to me that the nature of walking somehow it allows you to have more personal conversations that you might have, like sitting in the pub, for example. Yeah, I would 100% agree with that with Heath this time. my second child, I've actually been diagnosed with postnatal depression, and I found talking about it has opened so many doors to me feeling better about what I'm going through. That diagnosis is so scary.

But once you've had it, and if you are able to talk about, like for me, talking as a tonic, so I find talking about it, getting it out there is like me getting it off my chest and I feel much lighter. I don't think I would have had those conversations if I did a, have this opportunity to be outside with other parents at the same stage of parenthood. Sunlight is blazing in our face now and I've just come to meet Steph and Jacob who's given me gorgeous smiles with his new teeth. Yes you are. You like the look at my microphone as well don't you? You do. Steph so nice to meet you. Lovely to meet you as well. So let's talk a little bit. about these walks?

For me they've been really important, especially being on maternity leave. It can be quite lonely, can be quite isolating at times. And I'm very much somebody that likes being outside. I always have done. I find it is really good for stress relief. And when you feel a bit overwhelmed,

which are common things to feel when you become a mum. So when I discovered these walks, it just seemed perfect. It's like a perfect way of getting outside, getting Jacob outside. He's kind of given a little reach for the microphone. He'll be a future broadcaster. Is that the plan, Jacob?

Yeah, do you want to talk? I want to go and meet one mum with a new baby who has found community with the women who are here. I'm Robin and this is my little baby girl. girl Stella, who is four and a half months, and she looks like she wants to eat your microphone, I think. She's looking at it slightly longingly. When was the last time she ate? Yeah, that might be a point, actually, now you've said that. It's very nice to meet you, Rob, and I can tell from your accent and more than my own,

that you're not from around these parts. No, I'm not from around these parts, no, not at all. I've lived here for seven years, I think, now. I'd love to move back to Glasgow one day, but yeah, no, I'm not from around here, and this is one of the lovely parts about having Blaze, because I meet all these lovely ladies. Obviously, this is such a pivotal time in your life. To not have immediate family, perhaps, or friends that you've grown up with, but I'm sure that is its own little challenge or big challenge. Oh, 100%.

I'm sure that a lot of people are in the same boat as me and they might even not have any family. At least I've got my husband's family nearby, but not having my mum and very much my central close friends just down the road to pop in for a cup of tea when you've had a rough night's sleep or anything like that. It is incredibly difficult. When you first have a baby,

your whole life completely changes. And all of a sudden, I, my job is to keep her alive and it's the most humbling and beautiful experience ever. But it is incredibly lonely, you know? All these lovely, wonderful baby classes that you go to is obviously great for the little and, but it's more, like, this is for me and it's for her as well. it's just having those people next to you that you can chat to

and yeah like I say loneliness is so so so common for new parents and it's just combating that in a way that you can come out for a walk because that is just the best thing that you can do for your mental and physical health you know like I say we've got like nights that are completely sleepless nights and I'll wake up

and I don't even know how I can face the day and I'm like no right get your hat on get in the carrier and we're going out for a walk and I just always immediately feel better and then you finish at the end more often or not with coffee and cake. And, you know, how can you say no to that? How can you say no to that?

I was walking there with the women on Blaze trails. Thanks so much for their hospitality and chat. So I have another little chat in case you missed it. We explored the topic of light and women's relationship to it for our special Easter Monday episode. Nikki Bady was joined by the GP, Dr. Rada, who explained why we feel different. when there's more light and how to harness its benefits.

So we talk a lot about exercise and diet when we talk about health, but we don't talk much about light, but light is just as essential as those two things for our health and well-being. For many different reasons, but it's all chemically based or hormonely based. So when we get that natural daylight and it hits the back of our eyes, we have things called photoreceptors. They pick up that natural light. They then signal to our brain that actually should release something called serotonin.

So that's a neurotransmitter, a chemical, which boosts our movement. It helps us feel better. It's the same thing we get when we exercise. We also get a reset of our circadian rhythm. So we have an internal clock, a master clock, if you like, called the supra-chiasmatic nucleus, which is in our brain. And when we get natural daylight, when the daylight hours increase, that resets our body clock.

And that body clock basically impacts when we go to sleep, how much melatonin, a sleep hormone is released and when it's released, and how alert we are. And also, when it's spring, we feel like we want to get outside more, We want to exercise more, which boosts our dopamine and serotonin, and we want to connect socially with people. But is it the boost in the serotonin that makes us want to get up and do things earlier? Does it work both way around?

It's probably a bit of both, actually, is that psychological association, I think, of, like you said, spring comes, all of us, myself included. I think I always have a moment every year where I'm outside, the sun is on my face and I just think, oh, thank goodness. A bit like you said, you know, we've got through winter and autumn, thank goodness. We've done really well. We've survived that. and now hopefully the months ahead will be easier for us.

And does it, apart from what it does in terms of chemicals in the brain, does it have an impact physically on our bodies? And what changes within us physically? So that part in our brain is called the hypothalamic and pituitary axis. And that axis, all that kind of pathway in our brain, which responds to light, actually produces a lot of the hormones and chemicals which regulates how fast our body works, our hormone levels, in all kinds of ways.

So that HPA axis, we call it, is absolutely vital to every single other working bits within our system and our body entirely. So physically and mentally, it's absolutely crucial. That was Dr. Radda speaking to present to Nikki Bady on our Easter Monday programme on Light. You can listen to the whole episode on BBC Sounds Now. It might inspire you a little bit, perhaps, to get moving and to get out there.

I was asking you whether you were surprised or what surprised you about turning 60. So many messages coming in. Here's one. I turned 60 last year and what surprised me is how well I felt I expected to feel jaded, cynical

and aware of death but instead I feel at the peak of my life joyful, grateful and well in my body so says Mary Louise in London Peak as in Tessa Peake Jones who is my next guest

the actor has been thinking about this in her latest work she's currently on stage in a heartwarming new play called Invisible Me it's a comedy drama which asks what does life look like when you're 60, single and starting over?

Tessa plays Lynn, who's been a carer for a mum, who escaped an abusive relationship. You will know Tessa, of course, with Grandchester's Mrs Chapman, Raquel in Only Fools and Horses. You're so welcome to the studio of Women's Hour. Thank you. It's really lovely to be here. I mean, this turning 60, I just threw it out to the listeners, and I've got a board full of callers of what surprised people about when they turned. that round number. What about for you?

Well, I celebrated it. I invited a whole load of women friends. Did you? Yeah, that's how I marked my 60th that had been important to me throughout my life. So it was a mixture of people who'd never really all been in a room together. Some going way back to teens

and some more recent people I'd worked with met, but people that had meant something to me. And it was so lovely. How lovely, because I think sometimes it's only traditional, ceremonial of a wedding sometimes that you get those people together and that it's not repeated in the same fashion. So I'm very glad to hear that. I had a listener as well who got in touch. She says, turning 60, I had a big party where I played in my funk band and where 150 of the most wonderfully diverse friends came. So I was honoured and thrilled to be surrounded by people who had journeyed with me for decades.

I like you. along with my husband, my family, to say thank you to all who supported me with the recent removal and recovery of my brain tumour. Turning 60, I realised I could survive trauma, celebrate life, enjoy a good party and find the time to recover a few days later. That is a fantastic result

and to be well at the end of it all, the best news ever. How wonderful. Let us talk about this play. I mean, we had a quick chat just as you came in. I felt I left the theatre with a spring on my step. Good. It felt very uplifting, very funny. but moving and didn't shy away from some of the uncertainty that turning 60 can bring.

Tell us a little bit how you see it and particularly your character, Lynne. Yes, well, I think the play follows for all three characters actually. They're quite isolated at the beginning. They're probably quite, they don't all admit it, but they're quite lonely. And they gradually throughout the play meet individually, someone who has an impact on their life and sort of changes the way their life then goes and allows them to open up in a way

that perhaps a slightly different version of themselves by the end of the play than they were at the beginning. And I think, you know, we're not, we don't tackle this enough, this thing of being older and isolated and alone. And I think the title is Invisible Me and we see how that plays out during the play as well. But it is something that particularly

is foisted perhaps upon women that they can feel at a certain age, particularly from 50s or 60s, you have said maybe being invisible is as much about how you see yourself. I think it is for a lot of people and I think because you've gone through by 60, usually you've gone through menopause.

You know, as a woman, you've done the child rearing, you've done mainly the relationships. You know, you're on a different sort of section of your life. I think that enables or makes a lack of sexuality. I think it's still there, but I think some women in their 60s begin to feel that is going away from them. It's seeping away from them. Well, they don't see it. I mean, on screen or portrayed, and we've even done items, you know, how often women of that age are not the protagonists within even novels, for example. Yeah, yeah, that's true. think that's why this play, the fact that it celebrates three human beings 60 plus,

all with very interesting stories to go through. That's to be celebrated. Thank you, Bren Gosling, the writer, in itself, because we don't see enough of these stories, I think, on stage. I think it's changing for women, particularly, you know, actresses. People like Brenda Bledhen are leading the way with, you know, Vera. Producers are beginning to realise that older women in the 70s and 80s can carry shows and the public will love them for it.

But it's still got a way to go, as has a lot of stuff with equality in women. But do you think, because I know when you talked about being invisible as much about how you see yourself particularly sexually, do you think that's changing on screen or page? I think it possibly is. I think it's a rather slow change. I think it is changing.

I mean, what still makes me hoot is when you have a leading man, particularly in America, but it happens here too, in their sort of 60s and 70s, they have a romantic interest. And the woman, instead of being their own age group, is, you know, 30 years younger. And you think, oh, come on, let's get real. It's so mad. But that, I think, is slowly changing. But like everything in life, change takes so long, doesn't it?

And we get quite impatient about it. I think we as women in our 60s now, I'm going to speak, well, myself, but I'm going to be general. I think we are beginning to feel that we do have a sexuality. and much more to offer than, I mean, my aunt, I remember when she, who I lived with, with my mum. You were raised by two women, really, yes. My godmother, Aunt Rueini, she retired at 60 on the dot. She'd worked in a hardware shop, six days a week, all her life. And I remember I was a teenager at 60, she retired.

We went to the pub, to a Bernie Inn, and we had a meal, friends and neighbours, and we celebrated the fact that she would no longer ever have to go to work. But along with that, I, felt she slightly aged from then on because it was like she didn't have a focus anymore. She'd meet people for coffee. But it was like that whole thing that had driven her stopped. Now, I think, we, A, work to our 70s and 80s, a lot of us. And thankfully live longer. And live longer. But I think when we get to 60, there isn't perhaps that marker of, oh,

things stop. It's more about, hey, this is a springboard for the future. What about this? Here's from a listener. Do I have a name? Sue, the secret to turning 60 or 70 is not telling anyone your age. As soon as people know, they treat you differently. Mix with younger people, dress well and don't moan about your ailments and nobody will guess. Well, I think that's great. If that's the way forward for her, that's fantastic, Sue. Another one. What surprised me on turning 60 and divorced long ago, I've created a bi-hemisphere life in UK and South Australia wine regions.

I changed careers at 58 from corporate to freelance, retrained to become qualified as a wine specialist. If you suggested this would be my life five years ago, I would never have believed it. So that's kind of to your point. Wow, that's fantastic. And also that's quite similar to the storyline of Lynn, the character I play in the play.

She has a few iterations. She certainly grows in ways that you don't predict at the beginning of the play. But yes, indeed, it doesn't take much to have a little bit of confidence. I think partly what the play also deals with is for the age group of 60 plus, the online. Oh, yeah. This is a difficulty, isn't it? Because we weren't brought up with that language.

Our children were. They speak it like a different, you know, like French. We were never brought up with computers and keypads and iPhones. So that whole area is quite alien to us. So if you are isolated and you do want to reach out and you perhaps don't have a facility to do it via a club or meeting in person, how do you do that? How do you go online when you're not familiar with how any of those apps work?

And the faux pas that can happen. Indeed. We're giving them little... We can't give it away. We can't give it away. We're not giving any spoilers. I think, as they'd say online, some Easter eggs. As they kind of figure it out.

You know, I want to ask you about something else, actually. Because at 60 or around that age, many people will have or gone through emptiness syndrome. You said you didn't have it. No, I'm quite like the fact that I'm now alone and able to enjoy my life and not worry about, I've cared for people, my mom included. Your mother was bipolar. She was bipolar. So there was a little bit like your previous guest. There was a bit of teenage caring going on there.

So for me, having cared for people and loved doing it, I don't regret it for a second. It's been fantastic. But to get to 60 and think, oh, actually, I don't have to worry about anyone else. I can think about what I'd like to do. I found it incredibly invigorating and very freeing. And I'm sure Manny will also, that will resonate with Manny as well. But I love this line. There was a headline in a paper.

Actually, you're in some of the papers today as well who gave a lovely review to your play. But this line, why being alone at 60 might be the best relationship you've ever had. Oh, yes. Is that something I'm supposed to have said? Yes. Oh, how lot? Don't sound intelligent. Well, yes, I think actually having a, I mean, and some people don't want this, but for me, I was an only child as well for a lot of my life.

So you learn as an only child to be quite independent and to value your own company. So for some people, that frightens you as you get older. But personally, I like sitting in my own company. I like the peace and quiet that comes with it. I don't find that frightening. But some people do, and that's why, again, this play is about reaching out connection that you don't have to be isolated, that you can alter that. And you don't, I think, from the play, you don't have to have everything in common with that other person that you can have an amazing connection with. Absolutely.

And it's about looking out, isn't it? Looking outwards. And yes, the apps and the dating and the this and that can all work too. But actually, sometimes it's just about catching someone's eye. that sort of connection, which is very vital and we've sort of lost that a little bit, I think. Because there is a cafe at the centre of this community that manages to be some meeting in real life.

I think I was doing rivals and I had a young woman in her 30s on who, she says her and her friends were so excited by this fact that there used to be parties where people met in real life. Oh my goodness, really? Oh, really? It's our life.

So there you go. Some more messages coming in. You were talking about didn't you sound so intelligent and bright? And indeed you do. The course leader at Open Day at Exeter University says, we find women over 60 are the best students for master's degrees. They concentrate more. I thought it was flim flam, but actually it's true.

Here's another. I was surprised at how clever I felt when I turned 60. I went back to university and 40 years away from academia. I was nervous and convinced I would be too shy or not understand. Instead, I was so stimulated. And yes, bright. I took an MA. I got a distinction.

I published a book. Being 60 and clearing my head from work and domesticity enabled me to learn, express, create and believe so says Roz on Dorset's Jurassic Coast. Wow, how amazing. You see, look at that. The future can be so bright, so good, it's fantastic. We shall leave people at the end of this programme with a spring in their step, hopefully.

Thank you, Tessa Peake Jones. Lovely to have you in. Thank you. I want to let people know that Invisible Me is on at the Southwark Playhouse in Borough in London running until the second of May. A lot of laughs, a lot of laughs, but also with some real moving and emotional scenes as well.

So thank you so much for coming in to join us and talk a little bit about turning 60. Do need to let people know the Health Secretary Westreting will be with me tomorrow to speak about the government's priorities for women's health in England. He wants to hear from you. What are your priorities when it comes to diagnosis, treatment, care?

Email the woman's hour website where we can put your thoughts. to him at 10 o'clock tomorrow, so you'll help me as we do that interview with the Health Secretary West Streeting. Thanks very much for your company today. I will see you this time tomorrow. That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time. The Moral Mays on BBC Radio 4. I've never been more concerned about the future of humanity than I am now. Examining one of the week's main news stories through an ethical lens. If we don't do something, millions will die. Billions will die. That's the

the state of play here. Sometimes combative, sometimes provocative, always engaging. I'd like to go one level deeper and talk about your fundamental moral commitments. Do you have any? The new series of the moral maze with me, Michael Burke from BBC Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Sounds.