Woman's Hour - 14/08/2025

Episode Date: August 14, 2025

Women's voices and women's lives - topical conversations to inform, challenge and inspire.

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BBC Sounds, Music, Radio Podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good morning and welcome to the programme. And welcome to what is going to be a very inspiring hour of radio. I know, because I've seen the line-up of what's to come. Your hearts will expand and your soul will be filled this morning. in gospel group and family band,

Annie and the Coldwells will be here to share their story. Now, ahead of the Women's Rugby World Cup, which begins next week. Today I'll be speaking to the pioneer Deborah Griffin, who organised the very first Women's Rugby World Cup back in 1991. And Victoria Maplebeck was a documentary maker. Then, after becoming pregnant at 38, she began to document the life of her son and her own journey over 20 years. The result is a.

very honest film of their life together. But this morning I'd like to hear from you about how you capture or have captured precious memories in your own life. Maybe you too have been filming your children and have turned it into a mini home movie. Personally, I love looking at old photo albums or home movies, but does anyone do that anymore?

Print out photos, make films. Which are the most precious ones in your life, the photos? Maybe you've got a home full of framed photographs, which is the one that you treasure the most. Or is everything now documented in your life digitally stored away on a hard drive never to be thought of again? Or is social media documenting everything? What is personal and only for you? How do you make memories physical in a digital age?

I am looking forward to reading your stories. Get in touch with me in the usual way. The text number is 84844. You can email the program by going to our website and WhatsAppers on 0300-100-444. And please join us on social media if you haven't already. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. But first, Rupert Gill ran the Wattsville Road Post Office in Hansworth, Birmingham, which was started by her father in 1976.

But that ended when, due to a faulty post office computer system and like hundreds of other postmasters and mistresses, she was falsely said to have stolen money. Postmasters, who used the horizon system, started to be prosecuted shortly after its rollout in 1999, lasting until 2015, resulting in one of the most widespread miscarriages in British justice. The scandal only came to public attention, years later. Awareness further highlighted by the ITV drama series Mr Bates v. The Post Office broadcast in January 2024.

The government says that as of the 31st of July 2025, more than £1.1 billion has been paid out to over 8,300 postmasters across the horizon-related rediremen. breast schemes. This is Rupi's, as she prefers to be called, first day back in her family's post office business, undoubtedly a day to celebrate, but it only comes after she lost her home, her car and her reputation in the wake of the accusations. And Rupi joins me now. Welcome to Women's Hour, Rupi. Hi, thank you. Where are you? Are you in the post office? I'm actually in my office at the moment. Can't really go recording the post office itself. at the moment so because they're obviously serving customers so but you've got the keys in your back absolutely how does that how does it feel today um waking up this morning after the last

number of years it was a lovely feeling to be able to sort of get up and then think yeah i can go in there myself and use the keys myself and walk in the door it was lovely must have been quite an emotional day after the 15 years you've been through yeah yeah i mean i think yesterday was quite hard because we had to do the transfer over with the auditors, this, that and the other. So, you know, a lot of things had to happen. And Rupi's line has just frozen there. So let's see if we can get her back. She's just paused.

Well, she's still on, but we'll try and see if we can get her back. In the meantime, I'm going to tell you what the government has said, a spokesperson said, about what has taken place. we pay tribute to all the postmasters like Rupert, who have suffered from the Horizon scandal. We've quadrupled the total amount paid to victims with more than £1 billion paid to thousands of postmasters across the UK as part of the government's ongoing commitment to deliver redress and justice to postmasters as swiftly as possible.

Rupert you're back. No, she's not. She's frozen again. We will come back to Rupi. No, I'm here. Oh, you are there. I am here. A few. Well, we will have our conversation now.

I'm going to start by getting you to take us back actually to what happened 15 years ago because you'd been a postmistress for five years when you were suspended. So when did you first become aware of the problems at your post office? What happened? It was probably about six months before I was suspended. I just first of all started with small amounts that seemed to be showing us shortages. So I'd put that cash in to try and cover it to see because you'd have to wait to see.

Nope, we've lost her again. Okay, we're going to wait and we'll see whether we can get Rupert back because we need to hear her story nice and clearly. In the meantime, 84844 is the number, the text. I'm going to take you to my next guests. Annie and the Caldwells are a powerhouse family gospel soul band from West Point, Mississippi, led by matriarch Annie Cald. Once a teenage member of the cult 1970s gospel group,

Staples Jr. Singers, formed in the 1980s with her guitarist husband, Willie Joe Caldwell, to keep their children rooted in gospel, the band blends faith, funk, blues and disco. And their album Can't Lose My Soul was recorded live in their hometown church. We'll have a live performance, but first I'm delighted to say, Annie is here, along with the band, and her daughter, and Jessica. Annie and Jessica, welcome.

Thank you for having us. You have got other members of the band with you. Can we introduce everybody? Who else have we got? Got my daddy, Willie Joe Caldwell. He's waving. Got my headache. DeBore Moore, my sister.

Your headache? My god's sister, more like a sister, Miss Tony Rivers. Because this is a family affair. I'm going to say, first of all, I came to see you live. There's an amazing night in London called Church of Sound, which happens in a church up in East London and Clapton. And you were phenomenal. Family affair. Like, how many, who else is in the band?

We should name check everybody. Not everyone's here, but who else is in the band? My oldest brother, Jr., he plays the bass. And my brother, next to me, I'm the baby. He doesn't need babies, so he plays the drums. And then my oldest sister, she stay in Texas, Anora Carwell. The whole family, Annie. You have kept them all together.

With the help of God. Let's start with you, Annie, because you are the reason this whole band came together. You started singing in the 1970s with your brother. Right, right. Coming up, Mom and Daddy, you know, they would take us around from house to housing. And first, my R.C., which we lost on last year, on November at the Staple, Jr. We all would get together and sing, and we would go to the school, have Tyler Show, and they would let me and him sing. And we come up singing most of the staple songs. That's how we got to be the state. Junior. And that's how you met your husband as well? Yes. I remember my husband singing. And so during the time

that before I had any children, he was traveling with us going around, you know, singing with the Stapid Junior. He'll go with me to, you know, encourage me and stuff to go on. But when we start having children, my first born with Nora and my, she was my second born, excuse me, but my first born with junior, my son, and he ended up playing wrong before the cowboy got started. And Nora was singing the background with my husband. That's how we got started. So the gospel tradition is runs deep in the family. So you were brought up in it singing door to door. You met your husband through it and then your children now part of it.

And Jessica, did you have any choice in the matter? No, I didn't have a choice. They really forced me to do something I didn't want to do at the time. How old were you? Here we go. go let it out. Can I tell my story? Absolutely. Tell your story. So basically I was 18 living life, just enjoying my life.

And then boom, somebody come in my face and say, hey, you got to sing in the gossip group. You know what I'm saying in this group. Going to take the car. Going to take, can't get your hair dead anymore. And I was like, I have no choice. Are you having a great time, though? Yeah, I love it.

I love the people. I love going in different areas. It's so fun to meet new people. Yeah. I mean, you wanted, it's because you heard your daughter singing the blues. Is this the right story that I heard? I was singing the blues. I was giving God all the praise.

The one over there was singing the blues. What's wrong with the blues, Annie? We love the blues. It's mostly like Bora and Nora, they come up and they were like, you know, they really wasn't singing the blue, but they were singing the Greek show. And they asked me, this young man asked me, said, could Nora sing with us? and it's Greek show. So I said, well, Nora, I say, you know,

I didn't want her to, I didn't want her to do it in the blues. I didn't. You wanted to keep them with the gospel. Gospel tradition. Yeah, because that's the way I raised up. And that way my mama and them brought me up. And you all have day jobs as well. Even though you've been singing together as a family for 40 years,

you're sustaining yourselves through day jobs. So you have a clothing show? Well, I have a clothes store. And my husband has retired. And I have retired, but I still got a, close to business. And Junior and Abel have a job. My goddaughter, Tony, she

has a job. And Deborah, she do her. So she's on her own business. She's a business. I'm about you and Jessica. I think when I go back home, I'm going to be fired, but let them know that Jessica Caldwell is doing the lowest work. So don't fire me when I get back home.

Don't fire her, please. Let her keep her job. You never know. You might not need the job because let's talk about this incredible album. that I have had on repeat in my ears that just lifts my spirits. You are getting five-star reviews across the board. Elton John has said this is the album.

How does that make you feel? This is the first album you've officially recorded. But this is a great story behind that as well, which we'll talk about in a minute. David Byrne, you're on David Byrne's label. What's that feeling like? After 40 years, you've released an album. Wow.

And people are receiving it as they are. It feels like a dream that come true. Really, the Lord has always told me when I was a little girl, even coming up with my brother named him, that he was going to open up the windows of heaven and pull out a blessing that we won't have enough room to receive it all. And I'm looking now at the blessing in my older Miller age, that's what God is doing in the age of six or something years old, almost 70.

And I'm looking at, wow, Lord, you let me get older to really bless. But that's what I thank God, the children, coming up, you know. Yeah. And David Byrne, he phoned you. Yes, Mr. David Byrne. He called me. He called me, I never forget, about several years ago.

And I was at home, and the phone began to ring. And I said, hello. He said, this is Annie Brown, because I was a brown, if I was the car with. I said, yes. And he said, well, I've been looking for you all in UK. I said, looking for me. I said, you're sure you got the right person? He said, you're Anna Brown?

I said, yes, sir. He said, well, he said, did you put out this song, got a race to run? I said, yes. He said, well, we love the song and we like to do it. So I thought maybe he wanted the song to do it with somebody else. He said, well, you like to, you know, do his song, sell this song. I said, yeah, sure. Because, you know, it's just been buried for years.

And I thought maybe he just wanted to do the song. Yeah, get someone else to sing it. Yeah, get someone else to sing it. So when they came down, he said, well, from him out, Mr. David Bond told me, you're going to be talking to a man named Yeh. So, Yale came down and they brought he brought somebody else to do the family

for them. We saw a restaurant there, walked down the street West Point. Yep, from where you are. And then you released your first album on his label, Luaka Pop, and recorded it in your own church on Jessica. Yeah, it was very exciting.

It was fun. Very emotional at the time, too, so. In what way? I guess because we all was dealing with our own little personal problems you know so when we did go in now I had a well my attitude one bad but her attitude was awful if you see the videos

she's pointing at her god's sister I don't know one of the sisters but getting all the family politics this morning and I guess that comes with being a family on the road right this is what it's all about what's it like because before I get you to sing because I think everybody needs to hear what you bring. Witnessing you perform live was incredible. What you created in that event,

in that space was, you lifted the roof at that concert that I was at. What's it like when you get together and you perform live? What's that experience like, and Jessica? It's a good experience. It's very spiritual, you know. And then you have the people that actually make it more better because we feed off them. So it's kind of like a, it's a groove, you know. You know? Oh, yeah. And I've got to say about your music, it's gospel, it's all, but it's funky. Yeah.

This is, I mean, you don't have to be religious because music connects all of us. Like, whatever you're doing, it's making, well, it's making a lot of people feel a lot of things in a very positive way. Yeah. Can I get you to take your place, and Jessica? And, Annie, can you tell us what we're about to hear? You're about to hear the song and say, I was wrong. A lot of times people, you know, they try to do things to try to get back at each other. or somebody do you wrong, you do them wrong.

But my daughter, Deborah, came up with a song that God had gave to her that too wrong don't make it right. So the name of the song, I were wrong. Oh, we're in for a treat. So this is called Wrong, and we've got Willie Joe Coldwell, Senior on acoustic guitar, and Jessica, Deborah on lead vocals, and... Tony. Tony.

All right. Oh my goodness me. Thank you so much. Thank you. Annie and all the corduels, Tony, Deborah and Jessica and Dad, Willie Joe. Thank you so much. That was wrong from their album. Can't Lose My Soul. I would highly recommend it.

It will lift your spirits. And good luck at Green Man this weekend. Enjoy. What a wonderful, wonderful way to start the program. Now, I'm going to re-bring in Rupert Gill, who we were speaking to earlier, who just got the keys back for your post office. Rupi, can you hear me now? Have we got you back?

So sorry about that. No, it's not your fault at all. Technology failed us, but we've got you on the telephone so we can hear you lied and clear. So you're back in the post office, which was part of the – it was within the family business, right? So explain the setup of what the post office was. So basically, Dad bought the shop in 1976. And it was a small retail outlets at the time, just did wool and a little bit of confectionery, and that was it, and the little post office in there.

Then Dads extended it over the years and put a lot of work in to make it to what it is now, which is quite a large supermarket with a three-position post office counter at the back. And your father was the first, was he was the first South Asian to have a... One of the first agents of postmasters outside of London to take over a post office. So what happened when the auditors came in? So basically they came in. Obviously there was money shortage. It accumulated over about six months of period.

They came in, they did a spot check, and I was asked to leave straight away. and then they bought an interim postmaster to just cover the period at that time What was that day like when they said that? Worst nightmare You know it was Obviously I knew there was money short Didn't know where the money had gone

There was You know day by day the money had got bigger and bigger in the amount But just kept trying to see if there was a way of sorting it out Trying to put more money in there wasn't any more money to put in so you just start trying to hope that somewhere along the line something would get better but it just didn't so when did you first start noticing or becoming aware of the problems it was about six months before right but as I said it started off with smaller amounts and it just they just got bigger and bigger figures duplicated certain transactions you could see that they'd gone on twice but you couldn't see why they'd gone on twice and there was no way of trying to to sort it out. I would get in touch with the helpline, ask them what I should do. And I was told, you know, you just need to sort it out. You need to put the money in. Not much help at all.

And then six months later, the auditors came in, saw the losses. They asked for the keys back then and there. What do you remember about that day? Just very, very vaguely. I mean, at the time when I saw them walk through the door, it was just like sheer dread. And the whole time of them being here, I just remember being very quiet and not, you know, I'm normally a very bubbly person and outgoing sort of loud person. I just couldn't, I didn't know what to say or do. It was devastating.

And you were found guilty of theft and false accounting. Yeah, that's about. What were the consequences? Because you weren't imprisoned. No. Basically, I, my husband and I were actually at the time working in the office, so it was only the two of us. I'm blaming him.

he's blaming me things got out of control and he kept drinking heavily I tried to take my life at one stage luckily I'm here now and you know

I'm able to tell my story and carry on with things and you know move forward but for him he just carried on drinking and one day he was found outside and you know he wasn't with us anymore

which made it even more difficult I was then left alone by the post office for a little while because obviously it's circumstances and then the post office started to come up they actually arrested me on the shop floor one day and took me to the police station and obviously charged me there and yes I was taken to court and I was

guilty for those I'm very lucky I was told to pack a bag I didn't think I'd be coming back home. I'd got two children at the time. And I honestly thought I wasn't coming home. And I was, you know, the best thing for me to do was to plead guilty. And you got a suspended sentence with community service. And you paid the money back?

Well, my dad had to pay the money back for me. What was your dad's reaction to all of this? Devastated. Absolutely devastated. He was heartbroken. He was in Paris. like I said my dad he did a lot for the community it's going to be 50 years next year for us having the business and us being running in this area for that long so at that time

he he wouldn't come to the shop he just said I don't want to come you know I don't want to face anybody you know I was in the newspapers I was in the Indian newspaper at the time there's for there the evening mail everywhere and he was horrified you know it was a big shame for him and the best of family. And the post office that you had was within the larger shop that your dad had set up. That's correct, yeah. So the post office was taken over and run by somebody else,

but you were still running the shop? Well, at first, for the first few months, I wasn't able to because I didn't want to face anybody. I lost my house, lost my car, and then mom and dad said to me, just live above the shop, I hadn't got anywhere else to go. I'd got two children with me at that time.

So, you know, they said stop at the top of the shop and pull yourself together if you can and whatever. So after a amount of time passing and, you know, everybody's saying, no, you've got to start to do things and look after your kids and send for your kids. That's it now. You've got to move on. That's when I started to slowly, bit by bit, do things in the shop

and start, you know, running the shop slowly. What was that like? Stepping back in the shop? I mean, first of all, some incredibly supportive parents. Yeah, no, definitely, definitely. I mean, I think they were devastated, but they knew they had to keep me going

because, you know, no father for my children. And they knew, they could see there was no money anywhere, that they knew that, you know, where had it gone? They couldn't, no, no, none of us could work it out. So from that point of view, you know, they were supported, definitely. And then when you started sort of building, your life back up slowly, you know, living with your kids, with your folks. What was it like going back into the shop to help to start working again?

Very difficult. People, customers at the time, obviously, people had heard about what had gone on. And people can be very cruel, but obviously they believe what they read. You know, they believe what they see. So at that time, you know, I was called a fee. So I was told, you know, I shouldn't be there now. I shouldn't be trusted in handling money. just that you expect people. To your face? Yeah, oh yes, absolutely. Absolutely.

And you mentioned the word shame there. And you also said that, you know, it was written up in not just papers, specifically the Asian papers, I suppose the shame within the community as well. Absolutely. I mean, you know, I grew up in this area. I went to school down the road.

I've known people all my life, literally. So, yeah, very difficult. Very, very difficult. So when, Rupy, did you become aware, of others who were running post offices that were having the same problems? When did you first hear that you weren't alone? Yeah, it was about five years

after, sorry, five years ago I was, I'm now with my new partner and I've gone to drop him off somewhere. He was doing a governing, he's a government's

at one of the scores, so I went to drop him off and I was sat in the car, I was supposed to come back to the shop and I was just waiting. and I thought I'd just hang on a bit. I started flicking in the radio and I heard a podcast by Nick Wallace and I just heard something about post stories so I just stopped and started listening.

Three hours later I'm still sat there listening to it because that's what first told me about other people having it and other things, what they'd all gone through. And then my partner comes back in the car and says, why are you still sat here? You're supposed to have gone and, you know, what you're doing here? I said, listen to this. I made him listen to it as well.

so we were there for hours just listening to it and I was in tears obviously listening to other people's story and that and that that was the first time I'd heard anything that anybody else had anything similar and then of course the scandal became

came to huge public attention by the ITV drama Mr Bates versus the post office what was it like to watch that and to experience that outpouring from the public I couldn't watch it with anybody I had to watch it on my own

because I really, I was so emotional by it and listening to what they were saying watching what was going on and the feelings that they were going through, I could relate to everything. There was nothing that I didn't relate to. It was very, very difficult, very emotional. And when you realised when you suddenly started to click

that the public were shocked by the scandal and that actually this is turning into something else now, what was that like? I mean, it was good. in the sense that people started realising. I mean, a lot of people had forgotten that I'd gone through it, that I'd been, you know, because obviously people moved from the area,

people forget what's gone on. But, you know, started telling people, yeah, you know, it couldn't be me, I could do one of the ones that, you know, had the same thing. Obviously, I was not never sure until I was exonerated. You know, I needed to wait for that piece of paper before I sort of went public with it as such. Well, that only happened eight months ago, right?

Last Christmas. Last Christmas, yeah, yeah. How did that feel, being a piece of? exonerated. Amazing. Absolutely amazing. It's best feeling ever. I mean, you know... But sadly your dad wasn't here to, isn't here to have witnessed that. No. And I think the worst thing for me is that he never heard anything about anybody else having the same problem or, you know, Horizon scandal or anything. And that really hurts because my dad was always on the internet. He was always watching the news.

You know, he'd never ever had a program and he always had the news on in the background and it would have been, you know, he would have been over the moon if he had even heard a little snippet of something and that's what hurts. He never found, never heard. But he always wanted us to take it back over.

He always said, can't you do it? Even to my new partner, he'd always say to him, go on, see if you can do it in your name, you get back in there, but no, unfortunately we couldn't. So he'll be happy that you're back there today. I'm convinced he's up there pushing me in the right direction and yes. I'm sure he's happy.

Now the first report from that inquiry held by Sir Wynne Williams was published last month and it revealed the scale of the suffering caused to hundreds of sub-postmasters who were wrongly prosecuted over shortfalls in their branch accounts as well as others affected. The post office has apologised unreservedly and said it would carefully consider the report. How important is it to you, Rupi, to all those involved, in fact, to have this recorded formally? I think it needs to be done. I mean, I've said it all the way through since this is all going on. I mean, I actually went to the inquiry a number of times.

And, you know, they actually read out my case, read out my name, the office name, and discussed the case with, you know, the person that they were interviewing. And, you know, somebody has to pay, you know, whether it be the organization or something, somebody needs to say, yeah, okay, we agree it's our fault. Somebody does need to pay. I think that's what we all want long term. You know, people say compensation, people say this and another, but no, we need to know that somebody was to blame. Have you had compensated?

Have you been compensated? Mine is still ongoing at the moment. I'm going to tell you what a government spokesperson said. They said, we pay tribute to all the postmasters like Rupert, who have suffered from the horizon scandal. We have quadrupled the total. amount paid to victims with more than one billion pounds paid to thousands of postmasters across the UK as part of the government's ongoing commitment to deliver, redress and justice to postmasters as swiftly as possible?

I mean, hopefully mine will get 40 soon. You know, I have been a bit preoccupied trying to retake the post office back over. So I think from that point of view, you know, now that this is this sort of section I've achieved, then I can start looking at and seeing what we need to do. It's a shame for people that need it. And so much has happened to you in the last five years. You've lost your dad, your husband, you know, your mother. Will life ever be normal?

Will it ever resume? It will never be normal. It will never be what it was. But I have moved on. I am happier. I'm very, you know, I'm contenting what I'm doing. I think this chapter of, you know, I've built up the reference to represent. within the shop with my partner now and you know we are very sort of in the public we do a lot of

community things and you know for us this is what we think this is the right thing for us to have done now is to take the post office back and the community is so with me yeah I'm sure you know I'm sure and I'm sure and I know that you're having an official post office opening on Monday and a ribbon being cut so I wish you all the best of luck with that uh Rupert Gill thank you so much for speaking to me this morning. And if you've been affected by anything you've heard in this interview, you can go to the BBC's Action Line, where you'll find links to support. 84844 is the text number. Now, the Women's Rugby World Cup begins a week tomorrow, and we'll be live from a rugby club in Gateshead, not far from where the first match is being played later that

day, England v. USA at Sunderland Stadium of Light. Well, today I'm joined in the studio by a women's rugby trailblazer. A very inspiring woman who's made the cause rugby her life. An amateur player since university, Deborah Griffin was co-organiser of the first ever Women's Rugby World Cup

held in Wales back in 1991 and earlier this month she took up a new role as the president of the rugby football union. The first woman to hold that role. Deborah, welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you. I mean, think back to you in 1991

and here you are as the president of the rugby football union. Did you ever think that this would happen in your life? Not at all. It's, I only ever look one step ahead, really. And it wasn't until a few years ago that I thought, well, actually I could apply for this and do this role.

So no, it was never in my dreams. Yeah, you're very well qualified to not only apply for it, but to get the role. Because you, as I mentioned, started the first ever women's rugby World Cup. Take us back to that. It was in Wales. It was in Wales. We'd formed the Women's Rugby Football Union, WRFU in 83, with just 17 sides. 16 of them were university sides. So it was very early days. We'd played a couple of internationals against France. And Wales had a team as well. We were all together. We were both Wales and England in the WRFU. And I put a paper together for the WRFU and said, I think we should have a World Cup. You've brought me the programme. I have brought you the programme.

It's fantastic. Well, great, great. I mean, it's, you know, I'm looking through it. You've got Japan represented. I mean, where were the teams from? Well, it's interesting. So we knew that there were a few going. We knew that, for instance, the Netherlands and Sweden had a team.

But we literally, and you have to bear in mind, there was no internet or email at those times. We literally wrote to something like the Japan Rugby Union and said, have you got any women playing rugby? And so we put it together. So we had 12 teams, which was absolutely incredible. What was the budget? The budget was, I think it was about 35,000. And what we hoped for originally was to raise funds so that we could pay for the accommodation of the teams and the travel and the food.

And that was, they actually stayed at the Cardiff Institute. So, you know, it wasn't hotels, salubrious hotels. But we failed to raise that money. We tried very hard. We had a sponsorship agent. It just people didn't want to sponsor women's sport, let alone something that was very, very young in the days. And so we wrote to the teams in the January and said,

look, we're really sorry. We just can't raise this money. We're probably going to have to fail. And they all wrote back and said, nope, we're still coming. We'll pay for it ourselves. And that was only four or five months later. So we carried on and arranged it.

I have to say, I'm so glad you brought the programme in because we're talking about how we retain memories, physical memories. So this is so lovely to have something from 1991 in my hands and just looking at the photographs, making me smile. How did you get into rugby? So I was from a sporting family but didn't do any team sports and I don't think my family knew anything about rugby.

But I went to university, went to University College London, went out with a lad who played rugby and started watching him and there was a group of us watching. And for some reason, and I still don't know why, I mean, I should talk about memories, it's a long time ago, we decided to challenge King's College, who were our varsity rivals, to a game of women's rugby.

I thought you said you were going to say, I'm going to challenge the boyfriends. But no, yes, so King's College. And they took up the challenge. So, you know, we got one of the husbands of one of our players to help coach us and took to the field. And absolutely, you know, the feeling I've had, and I know other people do this as well,

I came off that field thinking that was the best thing I had ever done. I just loved the whole game. Love tackling. But I love the, you know, the fact that you were looking for space. I love the fact that you had to work as a team, you know, that everybody has to take part. And so after that, it was a case of encouraging other universities to play us. And that was literally how it built because, A, I wanted to play more.

Sorry. But also, I wanted other girls to have the opportunity to play this great sport. But you were told no, weren't you? I mean, I know that as a woman you were refused membership at the Finchley Rugby Club, for example, where you were training. Well, that was after a few years when we realised that everybody was playing for UCL, wasn't at UCL because we'd left and the girls were coming down

from other universities like York and Warwick and coming to UCL. So we went up to Finchley. There were connections there, and we asked if we could play there. And we were there for two years. We played in Finchley colours, played as Finchley. had a fantastic time, supported the club, you know, helped clean the bars,

work behind the bar. But we wanted to become members because we were paying to play there. And the committee at the time, it was a big leap for them to have female members. And they were worried that we might skew the elections for the men's captain or something like that. And so they said no, which was a great disappointment to the lot of the lads that were playing there. and we had just a few months before organised an international against France the first international, it was Great Britain versus France

because we were England and Wales and Richmond wrote to us and said we'd love to have a women's team so we had a very big vote of the club not everybody was in agreement but we moved on block to Richmond and that was another success story and I mean success story after success story after success story

I mean, in some countries, though, women's rugby has grown up alongside the men's game, but in England, the rugby football union for women and rugby football union operated separately. And I only joined forces in 2014.

What impact do you think that separation has had? I think it was interesting. I mean, we didn't, I don't think we tried to join up with the RFU. As the WRFU, we just did that because we wanted to bring people

together to organise competitions, get insurance and those sorts of things. And it went from there. And it allowed us to be flexed, It allowed us to do what we need to do for our game. And we ended up with the staff. We didn't have any full-time staff till 94.

And then we ended up, when we went into the RFU in 2012, we had about 32 staff by that stage. And that was funded by UK Sport and Sport England, which was brilliant. But of course, going into the RFU, all our players were playing in RFU clubs. Yeah. And they were members of RFU clubs. So it just made sense and to be able to use the RFU's better network, better resources than we had to develop the game.

There might be somebody listening thinking, you know, we can't get the head around women's rugby still, for whatever reason. What are the biggest misconceptions do you think when it comes to rugby and women? I think people don't realise or they don't realise that women play it because they enjoy the game. You know, it's nothing to do with trying to get one over men. it's because the game, we all love the game and it's so enjoyable to play. So I think that's what people don't,

some people don't understand why you would want to run around tackling people, you know, getting hurt, scraped knees, all those sorts of things. Why do you? It's just a brilliant game. And not only on the pitch, which, as I said before, you know, it's both intellectually and physically exciting,

but I think it's that playing together means that you have friendships for many years and the men have that and you know that's grown up with the women I've just come back from Italy with a group of friends I played rugby with nine of us and that was our 26th annual trip away

and that's repeated across the country I hear people say you know I've got great friends from playing rugby yeah that camaraderie I'm actually going to be having my first attempt at playing rugby next week when the pro we're going up there as a program we're going to get said so um are you going to pay i don't know i'm i don't know i don't know i think i'll be playing t one i think i think i think i think i'll be

fine i'll be fine i'll be fine i'll go to wear whatever protective gear i'm offered i whatever i'm going to be up for it i can't wait actually but you know as your your role as the president you know there's so much that you now need to think about resources are still scarce um how do you get the balance right between promoting grassroots club development alongside the elite competition in the game. Yeah, grassroots is my bag. You know, that's what I really, really love. And the men's internationals in particular, that's where we raise our money to spend both on the professional game but on the community game. So that's really, really important. It's also your shop window. You also have to show that. But ultimately, everybody starts playing in a

club. Everybody starts playing in a community club. And we're very, very lucky in England to have a whole network of clubs with their own buildings and their own pitches and what have you. And it's really, really important that we continue to support those. But the game itself still runs at a loss. What needs to change? The game, the professional clubs, yeah, they run at a loss. And the women's professional clubs, they currently run at a loss as well, although we have a business plan to get those to be sustainable within the next eight, ten years. Yeah, it does have to change. we have to

the clubs have to be sustainable and some of that is in terms of numbers of people watching broadcasting sponsors all of that has to increase as well as obviously keeping an eye on your costs now I introduced you as a trailblazer a pioneer you're also a very impressive woman

Deborah you've managed all of this advocacy and organising for the women's game most of it on a voluntary basis whilst also having a separate career in the city and then as a bursa at Oxford at an Oxford College. And you have a Cambridge.

Oh, that's a big mistake. Right. Anyway, the other one. And a family. So how do you do it all? I don't know. Fashion. Yes.

I mean, I sometimes think my... It's all right. We've got some water. Yes, please. There we go. I'm just handing you my mug over there we go. Thank you. It's slightly warm water.

I have to just put it out there. Sorry, I drink warm water. There again. Yeah. I mean, I sometimes think my children probably did suffer a little bit. I was telling a story earlier that I was on the board of the RFU and it was when in 2018 when we were trying to get the contracts, full-time contracts for the women, took several board meetings and quite protracted.

And my son was due to graduate from Newcastle University and I told him I couldn't go because I had to do the board meeting and he ended up graduating in Newcastle. However, both of my kids now really enjoy going to the rugby matches. My daughter went with me to France and Japan for the World Cup. So they've had some redress on that. That's okay. So he doesn't hold it against you.

No, he doesn't hold it against me. It must be very proud of you. It's been a pleasure speaking to you. Thank you. And we're very much looking forward to getting very behind the Women's World Cup. So thank you so much for joining us. That's Rugby Football Union, President Deborah Griffin. And if that's what your appetite, we'll be on Tyneside a week tomorrow where it all kicks off.

Thank you, Deborah. Now, at 38, filmmaker Victoria Maplebeck found herself single, pregnant and broke. Leaving her TV career behind, she began to document life with her baby son. 20 years on, she's releasing a documentary called Motherboard, which captures the highs and lows of motherhood, her son Jim's adolescence, her own treatment for breast cancer, and the maternal bond mum and son share much of it made up of raw footage from her smartphone

and the film is in cinemas from tomorrow. Let's hear a clip. What do you hope that you get out of the next year? I don't know, a year. So what do you want to have the next year? I've got all sorts of goals, actually. The year's not even over yet. The year's not even over yet.

I want to get my head in a better space. Go for realistic ones, yeah? Relax, four, I want to start dating. There's tons of, I've got tons of goals for this year ahead. So let's have yours. And I swear on you have the exact same goals last year and look at the way. And did you not have the same goals that was a year before that and a year before that? Victoria, welcome to Women's Hour.

Thanks for having me. When I saw you this morning whilst I was getting my cup of tea, I gave you a massive hug because I thought, it's like, I knew you. I've seen your life. People feel that because it gives you. so much details of my life and of Jim's life. So people always do that. It's beautiful. So congratulations first of all. So intimate. Why did you call it motherboard? Because a motherboard on a computer or a phone is the heart and the brain of that gadget. And it's where all the

memories get stored. And so much of motherboard brings to life all of that archive from old voicemails to photos of Jim when he was a baby to write the way through to 20. And so in a way that seemed like a nice thing. It has mother in it, but it's also about the way we store memory and we remember family life. So you find yourself pregnant at 38 and you were a filmmaker anyway. I was. When did you decide, well, I'll just document this child's life? So it wasn't that Jim came out of the womb and I thought, I'm going to charge the best boy's life for the next 20 years. But I did have my old EV cam from when I was a self-shooter.

I used to make films for Channel 4 before I had gym, and that wasn't possible to be freelance anymore. So I blew the dust off that camera and documented his childhood and, you know, baby years. And then there was a real turning point when I got a commission to make a short film. I'd had 10 years out of the industry. I very much paid the motherhood penalty that women often can pay in the screen industries. I was teaching film, but I'd really missed it. And Sean Baker had just made tangerine on the iPhone 5, and it was amazing, and it blew me away.

And I had been writing about the story and the text messages that I still had between myself and Jim's dad. And I decided it would be a really amazing thing to bring to life a phone story with a phone. And that was when I got into smartphone filmmaking. So I then started to film regularly from when Jim was about 11 or 12 years old. And much more myself, you know, Jim, we would have phases where he would be up for it and then he'd need a break. But I kind of was pretty thorough in documenting my own life. I mean, obviously for a long time, it's just mum doing what mum does. Was there a point where he turned around and said, well, how did he feel about it as soon as he became aware that you were doing this?

So he was a huge part of the process. I feel like he was a kind of co-creator and collaborator as well as subject. He has a creative consultant credit and it's because it reveals that. So I had a fantastic woman editor on the smartphone shorts and we would always sit down when we had assemblies and rough cuts

and Jim had power of veto and he was brilliant in giving us input if he thought it was being too sentimental or he'd go, we need to cover this. So he was a real part of the process and then it was also helped when we had, we got funding from Oka who come out of the Welcome Trust

and they very sensitive. gave us development money for a three-month duty-of-care development period, which I think all documentary filmmakers should have, or any filmmakers making films about lived experience or people's real lives. And it was fantastic. We had a roundtable of, you know, commissioners, other filmmakers, the psychotherapists who specialised in teenage health issues. And that was really useful.

And they said, yes, you know, as long as Jim has power of veto. And, you know, if he got tired, Sometimes we would just do audio recording. Sometimes I wouldn't film for a year maybe. But it was certainly in terms of my life, it was at one point on a daily basis. It was a lot. Well, we asked Jim, his opinion,

and he sent us a voice note. So this is what he had to say. It's a very, very unique experience. I personally don't know anyone that has had such an experience in their own lives. You do see a lot of real sadness from me, anger at times. But I think we wanted to keep it, me and my mum,

in the film, because we wanted to keep it original. We want to keep it raw. wanted to show how it actually is growing up in South London with one mum. We wanted to keep it truthful and honest because that's what I think a fair representation of our lives was. Of course, there are points where I watch back at, you know, scenes and cuts and I think, God, why did I say that, you know? And I would do anything to not say those silly things again. But of course, once again, we wanted to keep it honest. We wanted to keep silly things I'd said in and, you know,

what I learnt from it. And you kind of see a massive arc of me kind of growing up and learning up and and learning about life, which I think is the kind of beauty of humans, you know? Smart lad. Oh, that choked me up listening to that. Yeah, you can see he's very smart when you're going to have just the conversations you have with him. It's fascinating to watch

because we watch within the whole documentary, your child from baby to 20. It's really candid. There's footage of you, you know, desperate in tears. There's arguments between you and Jim that turn quite nasty because, you know, he's going through adolescence. There's your cancer therapy on screen.

Were there any limits at all to what you were prepared to show us? I think the limits came from the fact that I was always telling the story and I was a co-editor on it. So in a way, I would never have given this kind of access to someone else. I needed it to me me, me and that also particularly about how Jim is represented and him being a big part of the process. So I think that made a real difference. but I think Jim said so well in that in that voice note

that it's about being human and it's a I really wanted to make a 3D kind of representation of being a mother, particularly of being a single mother that would show where you get it right but where you get it wrong and when tempers fray and doors slam and we had a terrible row in COVID that you see in the film and really who didn't have a humdinger of a row in COVID I think it's extremely relatable

And I think the difference between the sort of mom influences on socials where they're maybe posting footage without permission or instantaneously. Which is happening a lot now. Yeah, is that Jim and I, nothing was live. And we had three years actually. That row was when he was 16. And we had three years of sort of talking about should it be in, should it not. And we had a test viewing, which was amazing because Jim was going,

oh, God, they're going to hate me because I tell you to shut up. And what everyone in that room, you could feel the love. And everyone had either been that teenager or been that parent or both. One of the themes of the documentary is absent fathers. Your parents separated when you were very young. And your mum is features in the film. She's a great granny. She's lovely.

I'll be listening now, I think. Hello. Hi, Mum. Jim's father wasn't involved in his upbringing. Jim wants to get to know his dad and you show him preparing to meet him for the first time. How did you approach covering that subject sensitively? So we made sure that he was completely in all. And we went to great lengths within the cut to make sure that he could never be identified.

And I think that's really important. And I think the tone of the film is not, I'd have no desire to sort of name or shame him or to try and get inside his head. But I did feel what I wanted to do was to tell Jim and I's story. And he is part of that story about his decision not to be involved in Jim's life and the effect that that had for Jim. but there's a lovely arc for Jim where he goes from being frustrated sometimes about that absent father and sort of you feel the sadness of it

but then by the time he's 20 it was so great we got to go so long because by the time he was 20 there's this great sort of arc where he just goes you know what I don't hate him who knows what was going on I love my family and I might have been different in a different situation

and I just hope it's proof that you can make great adults bringing up kids in different families. Well, that is the beauty of it, you know, the story of your son's life. It's a love letter to Jim. It really is. Lots of critics have said that in the reviews, and Jim likes that idea. And it's like having a family album, you know, forever.

Well, it's funny you should say that, because our talking point this morning, I said to people, you know, how do you keep the memories, especially in a digital age where everything's just on a hard drive? So if it's all right with you, can I read a couple out from my listeners? So Joe has said, when my daughter was very young, she said something very sweet and funny, and I thought I'd never forget. get it. But of course a week later, I'd forgotten the details. I decided to keep a book and jot down anything she and her brothers did or said that was funny, sad, intuitive,

rude, etc. I would just write it in an exercise book with their date, their name and kept it in the kitchen. They're now both in their 20s and love looking through the book, laughing at the wonderful awful things they said recently. I typed it up to, so they each got a copy to keep. I can honestly say it was one of the best things I did. And Margot and Nigel say, we're in our late 70s and have always kept photo albums. We're currently on number 157. We have two daughters and two grandchildren, 13 and 14, who love looking back through the albums,

not sure what our daughters will do with them once we're gone. The old photos brings us such nostalgia and happiness. I mean, beautiful memories. What do you hope that people are going to take away from this film? I really hope that they will see that it's such a celebration of contemporary family life in all its diversity. and show that, you know, it doesn't matter how many parents you have, the sexuality of parents, gender of parents, it's about love.

And there's lots of love in single-parent families. And I hope they get that. Oh, yeah, for sure. There is so much love in this. And also it's so interesting because you start by saying, you know, 38 and I'm making a choice to leave my career and have this child and bring up this child. And now, 20 years later, you know, he's your main production. Yes.

And now you have this cinematic release of this film. Yeah, it's so exciting. How does it feel? Oh, it's amazing. You know, we've just had a year of. the whole festival run and Jim does the Q&As. Usually does media with me, but he's on a job up in Manchester at the moment. But it is just so moving to be at this point. Well, I want to wish you the best of luck with it. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming here. Thanks for having me.

Absolutely our pleasure. Victoria Maplebeck and Motherboard is in UK and Irish cinemas from tomorrow. Thanks to all of you. Join me tomorrow when we're marking four years since the Taliban regained control in Afghanistan looking at the impact on women's lives there. That's all for today's woman's hour, join us again next time. I'm Shari Valle. I've been investigating fraud for more than 20 years. It is not them being gullible or stupid. These are criminals and it's often very organised. I'm Dr Elizabeth Carter. I'm a criminologist and a forensic linguist. Liz, your red flag's gone up. This is this gap in contact. It's an incredibly powerful mechanism. I'm Alex Wood. I used to be a prolific fraudster, but now I help the police to catch people like

me. And that's very clever because he's mirroring the bank and the police's own security messaging. Listen now to Scam Secrets on BBC Sounds.