Woman's Hour - 150 years of female GPs. Chief Constable of the British Transport Police Lucy D’Orsi. Anne Sebba on US spy Ethel Rosenberg.

Episode Date: July 13, 2021

This week, the Royal College of GPs is marking 150 years of women in general practice. More than half of GPs in the UK are women - but despite this, many still face issues like lower pay compared to men in their field. President of the College, Dr Amanda Howe and GP trainee, Dr Sophie Lumley join Emma to discuss why general practice is so appealing to women - and if they should continue to fill the ranks. Lucy D’Orsi, the new Chief Constable of the British Transport police is declaring a ‘zero tolerance’ policy on sexual harassment. She tells us why she wants to make tackling the problem a priority and for all of us to call out bad behaviour. In June 1953 Ethel and her husband, Julius Rosenberg were executed for spying, for allegedly passing atomic secrets to the Soviet Union. Their story gripped the American imagination and has inspired novels, plays and even non fiction. We hear from the author Anne Sebba who's written a new biography about Ethel Rosenberg, the first in 40 years.It's the time of year, when more of your body is on show and you might head to your local beauticians for a wax or pedicure or other treatment. How do you react when your teen or tween is starting to show an interest? What would you say if your 12 year old wanted to shave her legs or get rid of unwanted hair on her face or body? What about treatments like facials or if they asked to get things like eyelash extensions. Treatments are often now marketed as mother/daughter bonding experiences. How do you feel about that? Do you think there are other activities we should be encouraged to bond over. When's the right time and what's the right way to talk to your child about beauty treatments - if you should at all. Presenter Emma Barnett Producer Beverley Purcell

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to the programme. After the Prime Minister's announcement yesterday about the final loosening of COVID restrictions in England from next Monday, the power is moving from the state back to us, the people, as citizens. Passengers on transport or business owners or whatever we're doing in our day-to-day lives, it's coming to us. The steps that we take on behalf of ourselves and others to keep us safe

as the infection rate moves in the wrong direction. Restrictions in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are still being ironed out and subject to infection levels. But from July 19th in England, next week, we'll have to police ourselves when it comes to things like wearing masks on trains or in crowded places. Well, who better to talk to then this morning than Lucy Diorsey, the chief constable of the British Transport Police, the first woman to be in charge of policing the nation's railways. Have you or would you take someone on over mask wearing? Should you? The position seems to be from the transport companies at the moment that they're

not going to enforce it but are asking when it is particularly busy for people to wear masks. This leads to people having to deal with it themselves, amongst themselves. Women taking men on often presents a particularly tricky problem, but a lot of men are scared to confront others too. What are your stories? I'll ask Lucy for her professional take on this, because of course the role of the police from perhaps giving out fines, they haven't given out that many, some would say, during this time.

She can comment on that. Might be moving from that to policing each other, trying to police each other, if that makes sense, trying to get involved when people perhaps do say to each other, trying to police each other, if that makes sense, trying to get involved when people perhaps do say to each other, I want you to take this responsibility in this circumstance. The lines are blurring, but perhaps you're grateful for that. You're grateful that the state controls are off. Already some of you have been in touch to say as much and that discretion is back. Do you trust people to do the right thing? You can text me here at Woman's Hour on 84844,

on social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour, or email me through our website. And building on the idea of us being more active citizens, Lucy's also promoting the idea of commuters, of passengers, making trains a hostile environment for sexual predators. Those people, she says, are boarding the trains with the sole intention of targeting female passengers. And that's but the idea of getting all of us

to report any incidents we see of leering, groping or other unwanted sexual behaviour. The whole idea is spreading the idea who reports, so not just the person who is affected. She has a number for people to text, but would you text it? Would you get involved? So I suppose the bigger question here is, how do you feel about saying something to somebody you do not know if they are acting in a way that you do not think is right or appropriate? Or in this case, I should say about these sorts of crimes, very inappropriate and illegal. 84844,

that's the number you need. Also on today's programme, we'll be hearing the story of Ethel Rosenberg, the only American woman executed by the US government for a crime that wasn't murder, seen through new eyes. And in a week where 150 years of female GPs is being marked, what is the impact of having more women in this area of medicine than men? Let us know. Perhaps you are a female GP or perhaps you've got a take on this. We've talked a lot about women's health recently. Be very interesting to hear your view on that. But first, let's talk then to Lucy Diorsey, the chief constable of the British Transport Police, the first woman to hold the post.

Let us know how you come to the debates that we've started and already some messages coming in. Lucy, welcome to the programme. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Good morning, Emma. Good morning. Could we bus companies the all of these different individual companies will be making the the decisions and any enforcement what do you make of that well i think this is is at the point where you know certainly for me my my sort of view on this is about caring about our own health and caring about the safety of other people in carriages which is inevitably because rail is rail.

It is a confined space. So I think we have seen general compliance by the public. I think we're seeing a new way of people being assertive about their own health. And actually, in many respects, I think that people will still proactively wear masks. There has been a lot of commentary yesterday from politicians, from health practitioners and people really appealing to the public. And I would appeal to the public to say, you know, we still do have a pandemic.

I think it is really important that we are careful about each other's health and our own personal health. I suppose your wider point around, you know, is it the role of the public to police themselves? So let's just get to that in one moment. From what you've just said, though, you sound like you would welcome greater clarity or not, particularly in your area, on rail. No, I think the clarity, it's clear that it no longer applies. But I think, you know, certainly I myself will be wearing a mask

it's a confined public um public place and public space uh and you know we've spent you know nearly 18 months understanding the pandemic and how how it's transmitted and you know in a confined environment you know I personally will be taking care of myself and also thinking about fellow passengers so I will continue to wear a mask. So it is clear. It's clear, I suppose. It's just with your view, with what you've just said, which is a lot of people's view who are getting in touch this morning.

That's not going to be the view of some of those who haven't worn a mask all along. And now there's nothing to do to make that the case, is there? That's correct. You know, there's no legislation that means you have to wear a mask. So it is about people's own sort of public and personal consciousness about health. So in terms of what you should do, we've got a message here. Liz says, I wear a mask on trains, even though I hate it and I'm exempt, I'm asthmatic, to protect myself and assure others. Although mandatory at the moment, mask wearing has not been enforceable on public transport.

A percentage will never take personal responsibility. As I've witnessed, a perfect storm is now brewing in light of these changes. What do you make of that? So, you know, I'm not sure I agree that it's a perfect storm, but I think we look at a lot of there's been a lot of research, a lot of surveying of the public. And what we do know from those surveys are that people feel more more encouraged to come back to travelling on rail and travelling on the underground where people are wearing masks. So I think certainly, you know, there is there is recognising that people do feel safer with masks. I think it is difficult and it will be difficult because ultimately there is no legislation in place that mandates people to wear it.

So it is a choice. And this is about people's own, as I say, care about their health, care about others and the social responsibility and do you want to pay your part in that or not. But if it is crowded, which is what we have been told from the transport companies that have spoken out through various unions or collectives, they are hoping, the bosses, that people will. If you are in that situation and somebody next to you isn't, should you say

something? Well, I mean, you can express your concern about it. I mean, I suppose, I mean, it's difficult for me to comment around how people feel about that. You know, I suppose what I'm talking about is what's the safe way to, if there is one, to, you know, we're talking on Women's Hour, if you're a woman and you're sitting next to a woman or a man who is not wearing a mask and they're in close proximity and it's crowded, is it safe to say something? Well, I think it's always safe to have a conversation with people. I mean, you've got to make a personal choice whether you think that that's the right person to have a conversation with, as we do with anything. But, you know, I mean, I was I was delayed on a train yesterday because of the flooding and all passengers were talking to each other on the train. So I don't think that. Yeah, but that's slightly different too.

Well, I don't think we've reached the's like that's slightly different to um well but I don't think we've reached the point where people can't have a conversation with somebody on on a train I think you just have to make a judgment as to whether or not that's the right moment and that's the right person you want to have a have a conversation with I think generally on the commute people talk to each other it's it's it's it's probably you know this is different maybe people might not feel as confident having a conversation at um 11 o'clock at night on a Saturday. That might feel very different to people. So it's making a judgment. Ever taken someone on when you're not in your uniform and they don't know who you are?

You've ever said to somebody, stop. I mean, we're about to we're about to get on to your zero tolerance policy. I mean, I have had a number of off duty arrests, you know, when things that happen. I mean, I'm a police officer, whether I'm on duty or off duty. Of course, I was trying to understand kind of your training and how that's, you know, helped you make those judgments. Yeah, I mean, you do. I mean, if I'm seeing people committing offences, then, you know, I'm going to deal with it as a lot of police officers do off duty. You know, a lot of people are commuting, particularly into London. A lot of people are commuting particularly into London a lot of cops are commuting into London I'm you know the occasions where I have intervened I'm always pleasantly surprised the number of other off-duty police officers that are in the carriage and of course the guards also know that there are off-duty police officers in the carriage so I think the

guards and the ticket inspectors can often feel very supportive. So I think the public would be pleasantly surprised on the commute how many police officers probably are on carriages, but they're off duty. Yes, no, no, well, that's really interesting. I hadn't thought about that before. Because I'm just thinking of a time, for instance, I remember sitting behind a man on a bus quite late at night and I was travelling alone, he was watching porn,

and I was so shocked by it, I sort of couldn't quite take in what was going on. And then I did that very English thing of saying, excuse me, do you mind if you could possibly please turn your porn down, turn your porn off? I mean, I didn't quite know what to do or what to say and was quite nervous. And that's going to get us into what I know you want to talk about,

which is zero tolerance of sexual harassment and any behavior that's inappropriate on transport but but that sort of thing is quite difficult isn't it yeah well of course it's difficult you know but i mean you've got a right not to sit there and have to um you know you share watching somebody else's pornography and of course you know these are all the sort of things that, you know, 20 years ago, you know, they weren't an issue for people. But, you know, we see people, you know, people are engaging in their devices, in whatever activities that they choose to, whether they're in a public place or whether they're at home. I mean, there was the, many years ago, there was the image of somebody circulating,

I remember, on social media where they were watching pornography on the in the dark and obviously it was reflected in the in the train carriage window so everybody could see it you know and that sort of trended on social media but the reality is I think a lot of the time people do you know the most people in their lives have sat there and felt awkward because something's happening that they're not comfortable about and you know you know, my view is we need to call that out. And it's not just about victims having to call that out. It's about passengers per se calling it out. So to be clear, there's two things you're talking about here.

It's calling it out in the moment, so saying something there and then to that person who's doing whatever they're doing. Yeah, but of course I recognise people need to make a judgement about that. People may not feel it's safe to do that. And then I would encourage people to text us on the 61016. 61016. We'll put all of this up on the Women's Hour website, but that's the number that you're now hoping people,

because there's a problem with under-reporting with these sorts of crimes. Huge problems. Yeah, I mean, Emma, a lot of research out there shows that probably about 4% of sexual offending on rail is actually reported to police, which is just under two and a half thousand offences a year. I did my basic math this morning that saying if I had 100% of victims reported, we'd be looking at just over 60,000 offences on rail. And I really, you know, for me, I want to hear about those. I want to know about them. You know, we want to seek to prosecute people who think that it's an environment where they can, you know,

commit sexual offending. But equally, you know, respecting the wishes of victims. You know, some victims don't necessarily want to engage in the judicial system. But what I would say to those victims don't necessarily want to engage in the judicial system. But what I would say to those victims is, I still want to know about it, because then we can use the intelligence to make sure that we've got preventative measures in place,

cops in the right places, security guards in the right places. If we don't know about it, it makes it really difficult. Of those 2,420 sex offences, how many were convicted? The conviction rate is very high, actually, but the actual prosecution rate is nowhere near as high as we would want it to be. Because it doesn't go to that level.

OK, so just so we're clear, what's going to be included? What are you talking about? What acts are you talking about? What acts are you talking about? Yeah, so I mean, I think, I suppose it depends how we all define these things, but sort of pressing. So we have examples where people will choose in a rush hour to press themselves against somebody. Indecent exposure, so they will choose to expose themselves to victims and the language that can be used again is a form of harassment it's it's unacceptable so you know the actual breadth of things that are unacceptable are pretty pretty wide ranging touching you know I mean I think that people there are going to be

listeners here Emma who will say you know I remember sitting on a carriage and you know a guy and it is predominantly men came and sat across a lone female opposite her in a pretty much empty carriage it's completely unnecessary and actually then they you know i felt uncomfortable because their behavior towards that person was was not great and what what i'm saying is we want to hear about that whether you know this is as much about the bystander, the witness, as it is about the victim in reporting it. And we're doing some work at the moment to develop an app, which I will obviously make an appeal for everybody to download the app when we're ready to launch it. But at the moment, it is the 61016. And I would really encourage people to put it in their phone. I was telling my girlfriends about it the other week.

And, you know, it was great when they get their phones out and start putting it in their phone as a number. Yes. And it's 24-7. So we'll put that up. We will put that up on the Women's Hour website that people can text and share what's just happened. Because a lot of the time, that exact situation I've been in it,

I get off. I go to a different carriage, or I go on to a different train altogether. And that's what a lot of people also do themselves, because they just don't want any hassle, and they want to move on. I think it's fascinating that you are going to look at tracking ticket data. Tell us about that, because you can see some odd patterns. Yeah, so I mean, one of the things you know as we're moving forward i think you know basically society as a whole is recognizing that we connect you know we need to exploit data and it's not just about police data it's about how we look at the data of the train operators um underground and look at in my view i talk about things like anomalous behavior so somebody for example who chooses to tap into the underground and potentially is on the underground for six hours, that is not necessarily normal behaviour. Now, there are a number of things that could be a homeless person. Sopocket um on the underground but it could also

be a sex offender or even a registered sex offender that is on there and is seeking out out victims and it's about you know you can imagine the volumetric of data is huge my view is how do we pull that together working with um you know the rail operators and working with TFL to actually identify the people that we want to look a little bit more closely at, whether that be from a safeguarding perspective or whether that be from sexual offending or just general criminality. That might sound a bit Big Brother to people, that you're going to look how long we're on the trains, short or long,

and then how are you actually going to get in touch with us? How are you going to know if we've done something wrong or not? Well, that's where, you know, sharing the data, you know, actually the data will help us, as we do with intelligence already. I mean, it's just using data in an intelligent way, and it's looking at, you know, of the millions and millions, billions of passenger journeys that take place, we're only probably talking about a very, very tiny percentage of that, that we just want to say that's not normal behaviour.

And are we comfortable about that or do we need to be doing something more proactive and investitive? Perhaps when you've developed that more in line with the app, you can come back and tell us more how that will work and how that will come together. I suppose the reason I also ask that question is something you'll be very aware of with the many roles that you have held for which you've been accoladed is confidence in police. And we talked about this yesterday. Of course, on Friday, Wayne Cousins, a police officer, pleaded guilty to murdering Sarah Everard and rebuilding trust in the police around several things that people may have, you know, lost faith in for all sorts of experiences they have had. Not least, we've talked a lot about convictions on this programme for sexual offences and the way that rape has been handled. There's been huge government reviews of that and the CPS at the moment. But specifically in light of what happened with Sarah Everard, what would you say to anybody who is feeling that they don't have that confidence in the police at the moment on behalf of women?

Yeah, and, you know, I would start by saying, you know, a horrific crime, absolutely appalling to society, but also to many of my colleagues. And, you know, I know that the commissioner of the Met has made that really clear and absolutely heartbreaking for her family and friends. So, you know, just simply dreadful. But, you know, I have to be clear in my view, one person's actions doesn't define policing. And it is really important to understand and hear the voices of how people are feeling about the confidence in policing, the legitimacy of policing. But, you know, I work with some absolutely amazing people who work tirelessly to support victims, to bring offenders to justice, you know.

And I know you yourself. Bad people go to prison. Yeah, no, no. And I know you yourself, you've done great things, specifically for women around campaigning for longer paid maternity leave. You know, I've been looking through some of the things that you have done. It's just there were clues, for instance, that Wayne Cousins was a risk. So it's not just about one person. It's about how the culture of the police also treats certain things.

There were flashing allegations, one alleged to have happened just a few days before he abducted Sarah. The Daily Mail wrote at the weekend he was once reported for driving naked from the waist down before he joined the police where he worked. Previously, colleagues nicknamed him the rapist. Do you think you've got work to do when it comes to taking signs seriously? So it's always I mean, it's always important. I mean, there's two issues here. There's one.

One, I think, is the confidence of the public that we, you know, we when they reach out to us for support, for help, particularly for victims, that we respond in a professional way that really is, you know, the investigations are victim-focused. That's really important. It's important that we bring people to justice who are committing crimes and it's making sure that focus. I mean, we did that yesterday, not around sexual offending, but, you know, putting out a witness appeal for people who have assaulted, yesterday's was our officer, we had over half a million people involved in that tweet. So I think recognising the value of the

public to help us in our fight against crime. I think internally, obviously, it's important that we make sure that the vetting of our officers and the people that we employ in law enforcement is really robust. And certainly in British Transport Police, having had a look at that, really confident that our vetting systems are really rigorous. But you can only, you know, vetting only vets against what we know. And of course, unfortunately, we know with a lot of particularly predatory sex offenders you know their actual behavior is not necessarily known to the system so if i come back to my point around only four percent of um people report sexual offenses you know that's actually a massive gap for us in terms of intelligence on terms of people who are behaving in a way that's unlawful

and completely unacceptable. So I'm a... I understand that. And I just wanted to ask, he was a member, Wayne Cousins of Scotland Yard's Diplomatic Protection Unit, once, I believe, overseen by yourself. Did your paths cross? Have you ever met him? No.

You haven't? No, I haven't ever met him. I mean, obviously, it was a very significantly large command, but I have never met him. I just wanted to ask that because it was a very significantly large command, but I have never met him. I just wanted to ask that because it's a question, for instance, when you see when people have potentially worked together. It's a case, of course, that has caught a lot of people's imagination and it feeds into women's safety and also talking about some of the issues that you've raised. Thank you very much for coming to talk to us today. We will publicise those details. So many people getting in touch about their experiences on transport, on the rail,

and how they've tried to deal with things or not, which I'll come to as well very shortly. I was also just very briefly minded to mention that, how tall are you? Do you know what? That's one of the most searched things on the internet when you put my name in.

How tall are you? Can I ask you? I'm just under six foot one. And I ask because you were given a smaller truncheon, were you not, as a more junior female police officer? Was that the case? I was. All of you were.

Yeah, we were. We were given smaller truncheons. And it was interesting. When I was promoted to a sergeant, I was promoted at the same time as my husband and he got larger sergeant stripes than I got, which was really odd. And it's funny at work. I've been saying at work, you know, what policies have we got in place today that in 10 or 15 years, we'll just think of bonkers. Oh, have you come up with any that you can share? I haven't found anything yet. I will let you know if I find it can you do a bit of reporting a bit of investigation for us and come back yeah i think maternity leave was probably the one recently you've touched on that

but you know again you know really ridiculous that you could have six months um off from work as a police officer on full pay but you could only have four months paid maternity leave i mean it's it was you know in a way it was easier to go sick than it was months paid maternity leave. I mean, it was, you know, in a way it was easier to go sick than it was to have maternity leave, which was crazy. Yes, not a laughing matter indeed. But I am happy to bring a smile to your face with the seriousness of what you do with bringing up your height and your smaller truncheon and your smaller stripes,

which I didn't know about. And none of that is a euphemism. Lucy, thank you very much for talking to us this morning. Look forward to hearing some of your work and how that progresses. Lucy Dorsey, Chief Constable of the British Transport Police. Just a message here I wanted to read. I travelled from London, Euston to Manchester yesterday. Very busy train, many disappointed maskless football fans.

The train manager had a very difficult job in enforcing the mask rule. This is, of course, why we still have it. Only the threat of being removed from the train made people, mostly men, comply. They were aggressive responses to him. He was unfailingly polite. After next week, I have no confidence that people will use common sense. Keep your messages coming in around some of those very difficult discussions we may start to be having as the rules change again, certainly in England. But in June 1953, Ethel Rosenberg and her husband Julius were executed for spying, allegedly passing atomic secrets to the Soviet Union. The Rosenbergs, who were in their 30s, left behind two young sons aged 10 and 6. They're the only

Americans ever put to death in peacetime for espionage. And Ethel is the only American woman killed by the US government for a crime that wasn't murder. The Rosenberg story gripped the American imagination, and it certainly may have gripped some of yours. And it's inspired plays, compositions and books. For instance, Sylvia Plath referred to them in the opening sentence of her novel, The Bell Jar. The author Anne Seber has now written a biography of Ethel Rosenberg, the first in 40 years. And I started our conversation by young children in those days. And I was absolutely gripped by the story of what had happened to this mother. I had a lot of growing up to do after that. But the seed was planted. And then my previous book was a book about women in wartime

Paris, which included a lot of spies. And I saw from that how spies, when they were women, were treated differently. The Gestapo often couldn't believe that a woman could be a spy. So I was interested in this different response to women. And I realised that it was actually 70 years since the trial and ultimate electrocution of Ethel Rosenberg. And I felt that she needed to be extrapolated from this general view. If you talk to anybody about the story, they would say, are the Rosenbergs those spies? And I realised that actually Ethel needed to be unwrapped from this. She needed to be seen as an independent woman

and to have her humanity restored to her. I think we should go back and say who Ethel was. Where did she come from? Ethel Rosenberg was born in 1915, an obscure Lurie side housewife. At the time she was arrested, nobody would have heard of her. But suddenly she became the most vilified, most hated commie spy who, along with her husband, had allegedly sold, a bright girl who went to school, skipped a year, but nonetheless was forced to leave school at 15 and do a secretarial course. But her real love was acting and singing. And she was very single minded. She was an autodidact. So even though she had to work in a packing company when they were involved in a strike for better wages. She led the strike. She lay down on the road on her coat to block lorries. And although her pay

was docked for six months, the new Labour Relations Board afterwards praised her actions and said she deserved back pay. Is that what turned her on to communism. Was she a communist? Ethel became a communist probably in 1936. 1936 was a key year in Europe when many people turned to communism because it seemed like the best way to beat fascism and the Nazis. Ethel had a double strand of belief in communism. She was an idealist. She grew up with very little money in a tenement on the Lower East Side and believed that communism was the route to improve people's lives. But in 1936, they had

many friends who went off to fight in the Spanish Civil War. And so becoming a communist seemed an answer to world problems if Hitler was going to be stopped. And her husband, Julius, who she'd also met by that point, was also of the same mind. She met Julius at the end of 1936. This really is a love story, actually. So she met Julius, who was two and three quarter years younger than her. That becomes very key. And she was singing at a fundraising gala for workers' rights. And she happened to be nervous that night. And Julius came along and steadied her nerves. And they weren't married until 1939. By that time,

Julius had completed his engineering degree. And the two boys followed in the 40s? Ethel did not become a mother immediately. In 1943, Ethel's first son, Michael, was born and then in 1947, Robbie. So she had her first son born in wartime and he was, by all accounts, his own account, a challenging child. He didn't sleep very well. Ethel was born with scoliosis and that often gave her migraines. So she had a really difficult time with Michael. But being a good mother was one of those single-minded things that Ethel took on and was absolutely determined to be not only a good mother, but a better mother than her own had been.

This is really a family story. Ethel was born into a dysfunctional family in that there were three other brothers, but her younger brother, David, who was seven years younger, everybody adored and idolized. And Ethel's mother, Tessie, did not believe that education mattered at all for a girl, for a girl like Ethel, who, as I say, was extremely clever and skipped year. She was given no encouragement by her mother at all. And that's why she didn't go to college, although college for women was a possibility at that point. So Ethel did everything to encourage her children to be musical. She was a very progressive mother.

When and how did her life begin to unravel? How did this come to her door? Ethel's life unraveled in 1950 when the East German atomic scientist Klaus Fuchs was arrested in England. And he quickly confessed he really had passed important secrets to the Soviets, but he was given 14 years, which in England was the maximum sentence for espionage, of which he served nine and a half. Klaus Fuchs named his courier Harry Gold. Harry Gold named two people, Ethel's brother, David Greenglass, and his wife, Ruth. David

named, and this is very important, only Julius. He did not, as it is now clear from the release of David's grand jury papers, he did not mention Ethel. In fact, he said, leave my sister out of it, not just because she's my sister. She did not play a role. And that was the story that David continued right up until the trial. However, having named Julius, the FBI arrested Julius in the summer of 1950. Julius did not do what everyone else in the chain had done, name names. And so the obvious decision as the FBI decided was to arrest Ethel. Now, the reason for arresting Ethel, even though they admitted, as I quote, that the case against Ethel was weak, was to put pressure on Julius, or as they described it, they hoped that Ethel would act as a lever. So they were both charged with conspiracy to commit

espionage. And conspiracy, of course, is almost impossible to disprove in that it actually means having a conversation. And so both Ethel and Julius were charged with the same and the government hoped that they would name names. The reason that they knew about Julius was because they had secret information and they didn't want to reveal what this secret information was in the hope that they could catch more people. And he had been doing something though, hadn't he? Yes. I mean, the story is really very simple. Julius was a spy. He was a spy ring recruiter. Ethel knew, but of the 19 documents of thousands of Venona decrypts, Ethel is only mentioned twice. She had no code name. The KGB did not believe she was a spy. She's only referred to as Ethel in one of these. And it says that she does not work.

Now, the two men who decrypted these cables added a special memo to say that that doesn't necessarily mean she doesn't go out to work. It means that she doesn't work for the KGB. So Ethel's role is far more complex, far more interesting. She loved her husband. She really wanted to be loyal to him. And yet she was not a spy, according to the KGB. She knew and approved. But that's not a crime. It's not a crime in American or English law to think or to know. The crime is to produce a complicit act. And that's where the government had to act. They had to invent an overt act. So in terms of what you're hoping to achieve with this book then, and as you say, you've met and interviewed a lot of people for it, because we should say, in case people are coming to this

story for the very first time, this really captured people's imaginations, didn't it? And it was something that people were talking about, writing about, and have continued to do so. Of course, it completely divided a very fearful American society. I mean, we should talk about the fear of McCarthyism at the time. There was a credible threat. The Soviet Union had exploded a bomb in 1949. There was a real fear that having won the war, America might lose the peace. So that's the historical context. But you ask, you know, what am I hoping to achieve? I'm a historian. I want to tell a story. I think it's really important to restore Ethel's humanity, which has been denied her. She was treated with horrific misogyny during the trial. And the only evidence of her guilt was the perjury of her brother. So if my book is about one thing, it's about the importance of the rule of law. Anne Serber telling me about her new book, Ethel Rosenberg, A Cold War Tragedy. Absolutely fascinating.

Sarah's texted in going back to policing ourselves and talking about how we're going to be after July 19th after Nets Monday in England with the final loosening of Covid restrictions and mask wearing. It works both ways, though. I've been aggressively confronted by a man for not wearing a mask. I think everyone should mind their own business. And another one here saying I'll be avoiding crowded areas even more than before to manage my anxiety, my self-righteousness. I'll remove myself from places where non-mask wearing people upset me and I'll avoid confrontation by avoiding the context. Keep your messages coming in. But this week, the Royal College of GPs is marking 150 years of women in general practice.

More than half of GPs in the UK are women. But research from the Institute for Public Policy last year showed that women GPs earn an average of £40,000 less than their male counterparts. That's a 35% gender pay gap. Even if you control for part-time work, the gap is still 17%, which is higher than the average in the wider economy. Why is general practice so appealing to women then? And what is the impact, if any, of having more female GPs than men? President of the college, Dr. Amanda Howe joins me now and I'll be talking to trainee GP, Dr. Sophie Lumley from the West Midlands, who finishes her training tomorrow shortly. Amanda, if I could start with you.

Can you tell us a little bit about the history of women working as GPs? How did it all begin? Thank you. Well, it started with the fight for women to get into medicine at all, and many people have heard of Elizabeth Garrett Anderson.

And I think if you look at society, there was a whole battle that went on in parallel about women accessing education, higher education, the vote and getting into employment because historically women tended to be the informal carers at home. They might have been traditional healers and helping people in the village or where they lived but they weren't getting qualifications. They weren't getting jobs. In my lifetime alone, you know, I was one in ten at medical school

with ten men, one woman. And, you know, so it's been a huge change. And I think a lot of it is about, you know, women's rights to enter professions and do jobs the same as men. Well, I was just going to say. What do you think it is specifically about being a GP as well? Because a massive increase from 1963, where only 9% were women. Well, some of that reflects the absolute numbers of women entering any specialty.

But I also think in general practice, it's a very varied job. It focuses on people and we see people, whether it's a preventive job, a screening job, a diagnostic and acute illness, a long-term illness, and that interest in people is often a cultural thing as well. You know, women are brought up to you know be the carers be the people orientated thing having said that of course in gp and in society as a whole i think we're now training everybody to be psychologically literate whether they're men or women and that's

part of equity in our society too otherwise you, women get all the caring stuff and the men get the technical stuff, which again is not equitable. But I think women were drawn to general practice partly because of that person-centred culture and also perhaps because the career structures are a bit more flexible and a lot of women still have the double burden of caring. And they, you know, the dependence at home, if you look at the literature, the research, often it's still forming to women. Although again, I know a lot of men

who also are shouldering that responsibility now. But I think some of the flexibility of the GP career, particularly in the earlier years, when the hospital hierarchy is still quite strong, that may have drawn women in as well. What do you make of the criticism that there is more female GPs because and because of potentially that women working part time? There is a criticism there that it's led to poorer service in terms of not seeing the same doctor every time and staff shortages and also a lack of value for money in terms of what it costs to train you. You need to train. One of the arguments goes, you need to train two women for every man. Two things on that. I don't think the challenge to personal continuity is about the increased number of women.

You know, we've got bigger got much bigger multidisciplinary teams over my working lifetime. And again, the model of the single GP who did everything, actually, forgive me, that wasn't always a great quality service. You know, as the opportunities for patients to get better prevention, better screening, better treatments have come, we need the bigger team to deliver all that. And I think we are working very hard at the college to look at relationship-based continuity

and how to give the patients enough continuity. So when I see a patient, if I need to follow them up, they go in my diary. And then when, you know, the job is back, it's's done next time if they want me and i'm around they can see me and if it's an acute problem they see somebody else and i think the public can see the win-win with that bigger team and more opportunity um and then the other part about value for money well most doctors in their working lifetime play more than one role whether it's looking after kids at home or teaching or doing service development you know I release colleagues to go and do other stuff while I'm doing clinic and so I think that and that's true in the hospital as well so I

think the modern model of saying you train three doctors for two full-time jobs is across the board. That's not just about women entering the workforce. It's interesting to hear your response to that. Sophie, you're going to be finishing your training tomorrow. Why were you drawn to being a GP? Morning, Emma. Yes, they're very exciting times. And I suppose there were lots of reasons I was drawn to general practice. Like Amanda says, it's enormously flexible as a career and it allows you to fit alongside personal responsibilities,

but also leadership, management, teaching, research, all these sorts of things. And the flexibility of the career provides the opportunity to do. But I also just really enjoyed it. I started doing some GP training jobs and I thought, well, this is great. I can see a child with a fever one minute and then go to see someone who's dying and offer them palliative support another minute. So it's got enormous variability. You're very autonomous as a GP, sort of running your practice and being able to change things for the better of patients. And I have to say, night shifts didn't suit me. I was very grumpy on night shifts in hospital. And I really liked working the sort of lack of shift work and working more normal hours during the day.

I mean, were you drawn to it for the idea of, you mentioned just briefly there, but this idea of flexibility potentially for for the future yeah definitely it was and i've spoken to colleagues about it numerous times um there's lots of reasons that people pick specialties and i have to say uh although i was in a privileged position that i never felt i had to pick a specialty based on its flexibility but that certainly was an appeal and I know it's definitely one of the considerations that colleagues have had. What about your peers? More women going towards it? Is that the trend that you're seeing? Because there's also a concern that perhaps if you look at surgeons, the ratio of men to women consultant surgeons is approximately eight to one. And the issues around status of GPs and how that's viewed versus something like being a surgeon? Yeah, I think it's a consideration, but I certainly see lots of female colleagues from

medical school going into those specialties. My sister's a surgical trainee, so I'm able to draw comparisons. And I think that there are lots of reasons that people go for different specialties depending on what skill sets appeal to them. Of course, but very interesting message, almost bang on point. A friend of mine is a GP, even though her dream was to be a surgeon, but she couldn't hack the toxic masculinity from surgeons. Amanda, you're a bit further on in your career. What do you make of that? Well, it has some echoes personally, I have to say.

One of the things that drew me to general practice was the idea of being able to prevent things early and get an early diagnosis and do the stuff upstream of people getting really sick. But the other thing that I didn't like much was that historical rather sexist hierarchy in the hospital world. And, you know, I could see the flatter hierarchy, the more equitable team in general practice, working with my colleagues, not being, you know, as it were, told what to do. So I don't know. I hope that the culture is changing in hospitals. You know, again, we don't want it just to change in general practice.

We want it equitable, but, you know, echo your listener, perhaps. Yes, what was just a very interesting text to get at that exact moment and get your take on. Another thing I just wanted to ask you about, Amanda, as president of the Royal College of GPs, is I interviewed Nadine Dorries. month in which the health minister in which she talked about women in particular needing to stand up to GPs, advocate for themselves, stand up to doctors to get better answers, to not be fobbed off, to paraphrase our conversation. A lot of doctors got in touch with us off the back of that, some not very happy. What would you say to that? I would like, we train ourselves and we keep ourselves on everyday basis keen to hear what patients are worried about, you know, their ideas, their concerns, their expectations, their understanding of what treatments they need or tests. And if we're not responding to that and

answering their questions properly or giving them the space to speak up, then I do feel sad because I want my patients to be empowered to talk to me about the things that they need to talk about, whoever they are. And obviously health literacy and all that comes in as well. So I think that is sad. But also, I don't want to create an adversarial relationship with my patients. You know, I want them. So that whole thing about standing up to your doctor, I don't want it to get to that stage. And when Sophie, hopefully, you know, doing her training, when I'm training people, it's about respect. It's about mutual understanding. And at the same time, Emma, if a patient really feels that things aren't going well, I do want them to speak up. And if they feel they need to go and talk to somebody else because somebody didn't do the thing they wanted, you know, they've got a right to do that.

And that's fair enough. But let's bring it down to the stage where we have the conversation without somebody needing to be standing up to us. Dr. Armando-Howe, thank you for your time. Final word to you, Dr Sophie Lumley, as you finish your training tomorrow. I did mention that gender pay gap is the fifth largest pay gap of any UK profession. Researchers do put this down to a combination of working hours, age and women being much less likely to be partners of general practice. Is that a concern to you, the precipice of you beginning this career? Yeah, I think, you know, most GP trainees will have an awareness of what's been in the news about the gender pay gap. And it's certainly something, an area where something needs to be done. I have to say, I've been on a training contract where I've been paid the same as my male counterparts, and I've not felt personally discriminated in any way in terms of

the gender pay gap. I think that myself and colleagues feel empowered to take up opportunities that come up. The partnership question is a difficult one and I certainly hear conversations and involved in conversations about the merits of partnership and what things will look like when we come to think about being partners in the next few years. I think it's a very personal choice, it comes with a lot of autonomy and a pay up step, but it also comes with a lot of responsibility and again those are very personal choices and I think one of the fantastic things of being a GP is the flexibility to make those choices about finding the career and career pathway that fits best with what you need in your life.

Good luck for tomorrow, Dr Sophie Lumley. Thank you. Thank you very much for that. We've got a webinar on gender pay. Oh, there you go. And we've got an exhibition on women's general practice this week. So join them both. Plugging away there.

Thank you very much to both of you for coming on. A message has come in, which might not surprise you, is anonymous. Very quickly to read you. In my experience of working in the NHS in a senior position for many years, female doctors seem to choose GPs mainly more for the family friendly hours and the ability to work part time. They also seem to retire from their jobs earlier. They are therefore less productive and even less accessible than their male colleagues. I'm sure some of you will have a response to that

and also, not least, a discussion about why it's women who are trying to find jobs which are more flexible for those caring duties. Well, talking of parenting, it's that time of the year when more of your body is on show. Well, we're hoping for some of the weather to improve, I suppose, and you may head to your local beauticians for waxing or a pedicure or maybe a new piercing at the jewellers or the chemist.

But what if your teen or tween is starting to show an interest? Treatments like ear piercing are now being marketed as mother-daughter bonding experiences. A fun day out. Or are there better, less gendered activities we could be doing with our daughters? What would you say? And perhaps you've already had this chat if your 12-year-old wanted to shave her legs or get rid of unwanted hair on her arms or face, what about facials, eyelash extensions?

What is the right time to have these chats? And perhaps you remember not having these chats and not talking to your parents about this, probably your mum or whoever was looking after you. Trini Woodall has a 17-year-old daughter and she has a makeup brand called Trini London now. And Molly Forbes, she has two girls who are 11 and 6 and is the author of Body Happy Kids.

Trini, I'll start with you. Your daughter, I believe, started shaving at 12. Did she tell you about that? She didn't tell me about that. And, you know, she just decided she goes to boarding school and I think there's a real community there of what are your friends doing. And like me, you know, she has very dark hair on her legs so I think she got to a stage probably about 30 she says it was 12 I think it was actually 14 and um she's next door asleep so

I have to be quiet and um and you know I just thought fine and I just you know she I sort of mentioned it once to her because I think she's got to find her own path and I and she asked me the other day mommy can I have my legs lasered okay which is kind of what we're talking about here and so because she said to me I know you did and I said I did because you know I don't like stubble hair so so you know maybe when you're 18 we could look at something like that because then it just doesn't come back so you know how I see you're 18, we could look at something like that, because then it just doesn't come back. So, you know, how I see that is it's her personal choice if she wants to show off all her bodily hair or not. I don't think it's peer pressure. I think it's just her having a maturity around what she wants with her body. I suppose, of course, you know, your cultural attitudes and

differences play into this, what you've seen around you with your own parents and who you are with the peer side of this. And that may differ as well, depending on culture. But Molly, to bring you into this, your 11 year old also started to talk about shaving. How do you handle conversations about this? Because there will be people probably shouting at the radio right now. Well, you don't have to. You don't have to get rid of your leg hair. You really don't. What about feminism? What about, you know, feeling like you can just be? Absolutely. So my daughter's 11 and I was actually the one who brought it up with her.

We were talking about body hair and how her body's changing and how when she goes to secondary school next year and she starts being around older girls she might notice you know pressures to kind of conform and look a certain way and I talked to her about how you know as Trini says it should be a choice but also with the recognition that really how much choice do we really have living in the culture that we live in in the society that we live in I would be a huge hypocrite to say to her you mustn't shave your body hair because I shave. But I'm also very aware that the reason that I shave my hair is because I do feel, you know, this pressure to kind of conform and look and look a certain way. So it's a really kind of nuanced thing. The way that we approached it was we talked about how lots of people now choose not to remove their body hair. we looked at pictures on instagram of you

know accounts where people are proudly showing their body hair um and we talked about how it's certainly not a necessity um it's often marketed as like a hygiene reason you know that's traditionally back in the day was we were told that we should remove our body hair for hygiene reasons but actually it isn't about that at all it's about you know the beauty industry wanting to kind of ramp up insecurities and profit from from this kind of beauty standard um so that's how we've kind of approached it with my young daughter and I think it's all very well to say there is a choice that I think that body autonomy is so important I agree with Trini completely but I think we also need to recognise how much of a choice do we really have living in the culture that we live in? I think that that's kind of is not straightforward.

It's not straightforward. And yet, Trini, you know, you've been involved in our lives publicly with style and how we dress and how we look for so long now. And we haven't been able during the pandemic to go for those beauty treatments, if you call them that, or shopping in the way that we wanted. And do you feel perhaps you've missed out on some of those? They are being marketed sometimes, as I was saying, as mother daughter kind of bonding. I mean, I think that there's, I have a, you see, it's weird because I have very random rules around things with my daughter and they have no rhyme or reason, but I just have a thing about, don't, you know, think about things that you might regret. And, and when you maybe can look down backwards and say, so, um, ear piercing, like lots of her friends have got,

you know, another ear piercing and they have done that mother daughter moment, you know, and it's an, I do different mother daughter moments with with Lila but I said to Lila I'll get you a rose pierce and we waited till she was 14 and then I said to her like until you're 21 Lila I don't think you should do another one I'm just I'm just saying I just feel it's like you know all your friends doing it so so I've just done the extreme I just said you can do one but if you do one I'll never buy you any clothes again right that's just I don't know so sometimes I do lay lay down this kind of it's not it's your choice darling and warm and fuzzy it's like this is just my view and if you want to do it you know because at school they were doing it with you know I did this at school I I used to go there and went with a toothpick you know we've done stuff. But I just think there's lots of issues around, you know, actual the sort of medical element of it. And I don't want her to

be, I think it was, I did it because I didn't want her to do it under a bad circumstance. I just said, we wouldn't recommend that just in case. I wouldn't recommend it. And anyone who, you know, 50 years ago had them done by me, I really apologise for my technique when I was seven or whatever. But it is also, just to bring this to a close, while I leave people thinking about this and they'll get in touch, I'm sure, is has it made you look at your own choices as well, as you're now trying to think how to navigate it for someone else?

Or have they even been choices, as you were starting to say? Absolutely. I'm well aware that in the past I've kind of stood in the way between, you know, raising daughters who who know that they're more than a body and that actually the way they look is not the most important thing about them. And that's something that kind of really drives all my work now. I think that girls learn to police their bodies at a really young age and they learn that, you know, the way they look is one of the most important things about them. The culture that we live in with selfies and social media doesn't always help that and particularly this kind of insidious marketing of beauty is like a bonding activity doesn't help that you know when it's particularly marketed in this gendered way towards you know mothers and

daughters um I want my own children to learn that their bodies and their the things about them is not the way that they look that's not the most important that their bodies and their the things about them is not the way that they look that's not the most important thing their bodies are not decorative objects they're you know their bodies are vessels to experience the world trini i've only got a minute left but we seem to be going in the opposite direction i mean i'm just like i'm just i'm slightly wishing me at half and half of this conversation because i think that you know through lockdown lots of women went through lots of different things. But what I do know is that, you know, I released virtual appointments, all right, halfway during lockdown. In one day, 3,000 women booked them in.

And it was just you're faced every day with your camera and you're thinking, what do I want to do? And for me, beauty, the concept of beauty is looking in the mirror and thinking, am I full of energy? Do I feel full of energy or do I feel shattered? And I want to help women to feel full of energy and whatever they choose to do to give them that sense, whether it's to put on a bright red lip or to go and do a meditation or to go and go around an art gallery with their daughter, whatever it might be, it's an individual choice.

But I think... Well, we're going to have to leave it there. I look in the mirror and often just feel shattered or look it as well. Trini Woodall, thank you very much for talking to us. Molly Forbes, thank you to you and thank you to all of you for your company today. We'll be back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hello, I'm Pandora Sykes. And just before you go, I wanted to tell you about a new podcast, Pieces of Britney, my attempt to piece together the life of Britney Spears and the forces that have forged it. A huge fan. Yeah, absolutely. A fan of not just the performer, but the person.

I think that a lot of people were rooting for Britney to fail. And there's this sort of assumption of, you know, this is what you wanted. This is what you're going to get. In this eight-part series for BBC Radio 4, I've spoken to cultural thinkers, lawyers, psychologists and key players in the entertainment industry to get their perspective on Britney's remarkable story and enduring legacy. I used her as an example of somebody who really got what was required to do that kind of work. We're also using drama to help us look behind the headlines and the conflicting accounts to imagine the woman underneath.

Join me for Pieces of Britney. Subscribe now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.