Woman's Hour - 15/10/2025

Episode Date: October 15, 2025

Women's voices and women's lives - topical conversations to inform, challenge and inspire.

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It's your companion, your life coach, It's your Woman's Hour Guide to Life. Join us only on BBC Sounds, but now, back to today's Woman's Hour. Hello and welcome to the programme. Well, we have Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology, Liz Kendall, with us this morning. The Lovelace report says that women are not progressing in their careers at the pace that they should, and that 40,000 to 60,000 women are leaving the tech and digital sectors in the UK each year. Well, we'll hear her reaction to that, and also ask a big tech is where the government should be,

investing for growth. Also, I want to know from you if you did work in tech or you are working in tech what is, what was the culture like and the conditions, you can text us that number is 84844 on social media or at BBC Woman's Hour

or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or voice note the number is 037100-100-444. I watched a new film last night. It's incredible. It's called, I swear, and it shines a light on the challenges faced by people with Tourette syndrome. My guests will help us understand how it particularly affects women and girls. Also, who is the girl with apparel earring in Vermeer's masterpiece?

Well, it's been a mystery for centuries. Andrew Graham Dixon will be with us with some answers. And you might have heard in the news bulletins this morning that a study has found that specially designed singing classes can help treat mothers with postnatal depression. We're going to explore that in more detail, also coming up at this hour. But let me begin with a figure that jumped out of me.

Only about 20% of UK tech workers are women. This is a study by We Are Tech Women and management consultants Oliver Wyman. It's the Lovelace report. And it also found between 40,000 and 60,000 women leave the UK's tech sector every year. Costing, they say, the economy an estimated two to

3.5 billion pounds annually. Across the UK this week, there's a series of events taking place celebrating British women in tech, and I'm very keen to hear about those successes, but also what might be causing what looks like an exodus. As I mentioned, Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology, Liz Kendall is with me in studio. Good morning. Welcome to Woman's Hour.

Thank you very much for having me. And I want to begin with my colleague Zoe Kleinman, the BBC's technology editor. Welcome back, Zoe. When we say women in tech, what are we talking about? I've been covering this story for the best part of 20 years and what is really quite sobering is that those figures just remain stubborn. They don't change. However, there is scope within that. So if you look at, for example, women working for big tech companies in HR roles, in marketing roles, in communication roles, in jobs that are traditionally skewing more female, those figures are higher.

But the sort of the further along you go to the kind of the tech development engineering side of things, the lower those figures become, the fewer women there are in those positions. And that's really important because these people are making tech that they want the whole world to use. So it's really important that a diverse number of people are working on because a diverse number of people they hope will use them. I had a look at the report. I mean, it's a variety of challenge that it appears that women are facing. Yeah, I mean, I talk to a lot of women working in the sector

and I hear things about this lack of career progression. They see men getting promoted over them and they get frustrated. One woman told me she has to move company every two years in order to progress up the ladder because she can't progress up the ladder within her own company. There's the issue of work-life balance. You know, the tech bro culture isn't everywhere, but it's not a cliché. It is a thing. The Fawcett Society found that 20% of men believe that women were less suited to tech roles.

And you can imagine how that plays out whether consciously or unconsciously in the workplace. And that 20% is so interesting that you talk about men talking about, women not suited to roles. And it's just 20% of the UK tech workers that are women. Yeah. And if you start to look at why that is, I think you need to go back to education schools. We know that in primary schools, girls and boys are quite engaged with STEM, that science, tech, engineering, mass. And obviously at that level, it's going to be more fun, isn't it? And deliberately more engaging. But those numbers really drop in secondary school. In 2013, the government at the time, led by Michael Gove, dropped the ice.

CT, GCSE. Now, this was a very application-led use of technology, if you like, and replaced it with computer science, which is the much more technical engineering side of it. And the impact of that on women has been the number of girls choosing to get a digital qualification has more than halved. It went from 69% in 2013 to just 17% in 2020. There's a figures from King's College, London. And I think that's a really quite sobering thought. that maybe the argument at the time was everyone knows how to use tech. You know, you don't need a GCSE in doing PowerPoint. But actually, if that's your entry way in,

if that's the way you start thinking, I like PowerPoint, I'd like to make something like PowerPoint. That's an accessibility point that went. Interesting. And Zoe's going to stay with us. But let me turn to you, Liz Kendall. You told the Labour conference, instead of Silicon Valley Bros, Zoe's mentioned the bro culture there,

that we should be talking about our UK tech sisters. shaping the future. I mean, the problem, hearing from Zoe, seems to be that there's not that many of them. Yeah, and I think, so for me, the really important thing is that we have more women in tech and more tech that works for women. And I've always seen these two issues

inextricably linked to whichever bit of politics I've been working in on whichever topic. You want more women, including in positions of not just because it's a matter of social justice and women should have the same opportunities, but because I do think it helps make different decisions, decisions that can benefit half the population. So these two things are very important. And it's interesting. Without a doubt, we need to start early so that young women think tech is a world for them. I went to launch our new AI growth zone in the Northeast recently.

It was my first visit. I was a fantastic company, Sage, an AI company. And I met a young woman on an apprenticeship there. And she said she'd actually had to sort of battle to get this apprenticeship. She was offered initially an apprenticeship in being a nail technician. And she said, I should have a choice of being a nail technician or a lab technician. So I think at every stage we've got to look at it, but it's also this really important issue that I think is absolutely critical

for the women who are actually leaving tech. You've got to retain them too. And that is about making sure women have real career progression. So many women with actually with the skills saying that they can't get promoted, they're not getting the pay that they need and they're not getting the jobs. So we've got to look at every stage of this. But I think that's the part, right? Because there are gaps, as Zoe pointed out there,

particularly with secondary school girls. The retention is the other massive issue that needs to be attacked. And Martha Lane Fox, she said recently that misogyny is spreading in the tech industry. One chief executive told her that tech was done with women. That was a quote. And you've mentioned skills that women have the skills problem. But maybe it's actually a culture problem. And what do you do to change that culture?

So, as you alluded to, one of the first things I've done is set up a women in tech task force, which will look at how we can break down the barriers to success so that our future is determined by tech sisters here in the UK, not just the tech pros in Silicon Valley. But we are also giving one million secondary school children's new digital and AI skills. We're upskilling 7.5 million workers with tech and AI skills by 2030. And I want to make sure that that absolutely guarantees that women are getting those skills. Because if you missed out when you were at school, it doesn't mean you shouldn't have a chance now because this is where the jobs of the future are.

And I suppose part of my message too is for companies, there was a really fascinating discussion, sorry to name another BBC program, we're on today this morning about how AI is changing the world of work, including advertising, okay? We're seeing many more personal ads, individualised ads. Ad companies aren't going to be able to succeed if they don't have women designing those so that they can reach women properly. If you look in the world of healthcare, you know,

if we, there's been some research recently that shows, you know, AI can have a real, real benefit in terms of helping heart disease. Identify people at risk of heart attacks. But unless you know how they particularly manifest themselves in women, you're going to be designing the wrong algorithms. So if there is a business case, you won't get your AI right unless you have those women in there as well as it being a matter of social justice. We had Melinda French Gates, shall we call her, a tech sister, on the program a couple of weeks ago. She's a philanthropist, of course, and co-founder of the Bill of Melinda Gates Foundation. She was there in the early days of Microsoft

often. She told us about her concerns about the future of the tech industry, particularly with artificial intelligence. And technology, particularly AI, is literally changing our lives as we speak. So you've got to have women and people of color at the table. So we don't bake in bias. And so even the narratives about AI that are being given out in society are not all male focused. They're more, you know, hey, this is how it can help us. This is where it can help us in health. This is where it can help us get further in the law. And so I absolutely believe women need to be there at the table. So that is some of the arguments perhaps echoing what you have said minister as well. But we do know, speaking of culture and culture changes, the Trump

administration has been opposed to DEI or diversity, equity and inclusion, meta, Google, Amazon. They've all reduced commitments in those areas. And we know the UK as part of the tech prosperity deal is partnering with a number of US companies, including Google, for example. So some might expect a reduction in commitments here in the UK too, which of course would affect women. Absolutely not. And I say that, as I say, that is for two reasons. Number one, because this is going to drive so much in our economy and we want businesses

to be able to draw on the full talent in the population that they have. That's so important. But it is also because I believe that tech. an AI unless women are involved right from the start in designing those algorithms, they won't succeed for women and they won't succeed for the companies either. I think there is a win-win here. I think lots of people are understandably worried about this. What's it going to do to me and my jobs? AI? Yeah, AI. How is it going to affect me? And I think the key is to bake in that sort of equality from the start because it will be.

How? So we do need more women in those positions to be designing those algorithms. It means getting that in from absolutely from the start by getting more young women, taking those courses, getting those jobs. But critically, it means within companies. And this is what was so fascinating about the Lovelace report is keeping those women in. And what I thought was really interesting was for somebody who's been like a lifelong champion for better. childcare and family-friendly working, that wasn't the biggest issue.

That was 3%, which I actually thought was incredibly small. Wasn't it? For a reason, actually to spell it out for listeners who haven't read the report, that was the percentage that was given for why they were leaving the workforce was 3% much lower, for example. What it was, it was career progression and recognition for the skills and talent they bring to the table. But I come back to the same question.

How do you implement that within? a company culture from a government level? Well, I think that if, take that example of advertising that I gave you, if you are involved in... So you're talking about like a business, bottom line? I'm true. I believe that there is a strong argument for that. As a government, we are taking action. You'll know there's, there had already been a requirement for companies with over 250 employees to be reporting on their gender pay gap. Labor is brought in at the requirement to show the action plan you are taking to address that gender pay gap.

We are upskilling 7.5 million employees by 2030 with tech and AI skills. There's a lot that government can do. But I think increasingly that argument that, I mean, Melinda Gates made brilliantly, is that it will be in the company's interest to if they want technologies that are going to benefit and be taken up by half of the population, they're going to have that half of the population represented in designing those technologies. And when I was reading about this, if we zoom out for a moment, because we're talking, you know, individual companies and cases. But investing in tech has been this part of labour strategy for growth.

I mentioned the tech prosperity deal, this massive deal, sees firms like Microsoft, Google, pledging to spend billions in the UK. The co-founder and chief executive of the US AI chipmaker, NVIDIA, for example, predicted the UK is going to be an AI. superpower. But you will know that others have said that unmitigated growth in AI poses significant ethical, direct climate and environmental risks because it takes so much power to operate AI systems, energy, water. You mentioned going to one growth zone in the northeast there. But I was kind of struck this morning because I heard then, you know, the climate change committee warning that the UK isn't prepared for what's expected as a result of climate. change in the UK. So even if Labour's tech plans will create jobs in the short term for men

and for women, is it worth the potential risk to the environment to be this AI centre? We can't. It's not a choice between you go for AI or do you tackle climate change. We can actually make this work together. If you look at what we're doing in the AI growth zone in the northeast, they will actually be using that to go further on climate change. clean energy. So they have more solar power, wind farms. So they create jobs in that sector as well as in AI. But you do raise a really important question. And it's really struck me. I mean, I'm really new in the job, only a month. And I've got a lot to learn. But the sort of hope, positivity, optimism within the tech sector seems completely unlike how many people feel about it on the

outside. And I see we've got to join the two together. We have got to show how this investment is going to deliver for the people and the places that most need it. I believe we can do that as this North East Growth Zone showed. They have got as part of their plans a whole pipeline of training in schools with apprenticeships to show how this is going to a place that led the industrial revolution can now lead the AI and clean energy revolution. I believe we can make the two work together. You will have heard Sir Nick Clegg, former deputy prime minister and former president of Meta. He talked about the UK being defanged as it's not building its own AI capacity. In fact, he said let me see. The US-UK deal is just another

version of the United Kingdom holding on to Uncle Sam's coattails? Well, he's got a book to sell. So I'm not surprised that he had some headline grabbing words. Look. But what about the concept of, but you know what he's getting at? I think we will be a world leader. And let me tell you three huge areas for us, on life sciences, or on defence and national security and on technology more broadly.

I think they are areas where we have huge strengths. world-leading universities, I think we will be at the forefront of this revolution. And I'm a progressive politician. I believe that we don't try and stop that change. Our job is to make that change, work for the people and places who need it most. And that means, critically, for me,

as a feminist and as a Labour politician, in the parts of the country, and for working-class communities, and for people of colour, we want that diversity in the sector. And I believe that's better for the economy and better for social justice too. You mentioned as a Labour politician, so I have to ask you before you leave us.

The ballot for the Deputy Leader of the Labour Party closes next week. It's between two women, also you've mentioned as a feminist, Bridget Philipson and Lucy Powell. Who are you backing? I'm not going to tell you I'm going to vote for. Nice try. Nice try. I think it's great to see two strong women battling to be deputy leader

you know I'm sure there'll be a leader of the Labour Party who's a woman one day too thank you very much for joining us so he is staying with us and I want to talk to you a little bit Zoe what about some of those points that we've gone through I mean what stands out for you that kind of there is a conflict there right

with moving ahead with tech for example and perhaps some of the criticism that comes particularly when it comes to AI I think the environmental concerns are considerable. I mean, this is a very power-hungry tech. We know that. It needs giant networks of really powerful computers in order to run. And they need electricity.

The older data senders certainly also require a lot of energy, a lot of water to keep the cool. And so there are environmental issues. The hope the tech sector says is that actually AI will solve its own problem here, that it will come up with some solution that we haven't currently got and it's possible. It's not impossible. That is exactly the kind of big level problem solving that this tech is supposed to be set up to do.

I think what sort of what depletes that argument is when you see things like, you know, with Open AI launching a Thora app, which is basically like an AI generated version of TikTok and you think should we really be scorching the earth to try and do that? Do we need to think more seriously about different types of AI? You know, there is a massive amount of stuff AI is doing And the chat bot end of things is only a thin end of the wedge.

You know, we've talked about healthcare, which is really important as well. Of course. And we've talked about the UK and the women leaving, for example, in these roles. But how does the UK, as you see it, Zoe, compare with other countries, whether it's the US or others when it comes to women in tech and digital? So we are kind of in line, I think, generally. It is a male-dominated profession. But here's a really interesting thing.

We're talking about lack of career progression. We're talking about women feeling that they have to leave. So what about if they decide to go on their own and set up their own business? Well, that is massively stacked against them as well at the moment. A report from the Founders Forum Group found that just over 2% of VC funding. That is basically money given, you know, invested in new companies. 2% of it goes to female-only.

And that has been a stubborn figure. We started talking about stubborn figures. 14% of it goes to mixed groups of men and women founding teams. 84% of it goes to male-led teams. And if you look at the venture capitalists, the people giving out this money, only 15% of them in the decision-making role are women. So you've basically got men giving money to other men.

It's very, very hard to even get in. We shall leave it on that point. I want to thank both of my guests. The BBC's Technology Editor Zoe Climate and Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology, Liz Kendall. Do come back to us again. I just a month into the job. Thank you.

We appreciate you coming to visit us. We will be coming back to the topic of women and technology. So I'd like to hear from you what of your experience as being of working in the tech industry or in technical or digital jobs more broadly, perhaps in other industries. And also your thoughts on AI, you know. I feel we kind of began to unravel some of the complexities that are there as well. So get in touch 844- or any of our other social media platforms as well. Now, I want to turn to a powerful new film that is out in cinemas.

It's called, I swear, and it's inspired by the life and experiences of John Davidson. It charts his journey from a misunderstood teenager in the 80s in Britain to a present-day advocate for greater understanding of Tourette syndrome. I watched it last night. It is simply brilliant. It is also so heartbreaking at times. John was featured in a BBC documentary back in 1989 called John's Not Mad. I remember it well.

It kind of surprised me that this is the same man that I remember watching when I was a teenager. Maybe you watch that as well. But there is much more, thankfully, recognition of the syndrome. The singers Louis Capaldi, Billy Elish, they both talked openly about living with Tourette's. It is estimated over 300,000 children and adults in the UK have it. some of the key features are ticks which cause people to make sudden involuntary sounds and movements well to hear more about the condition

and also particularly this is women's hour how it impacts women and girls we have with us will have been a dire musician and Tourette's syndrome advocate hi good to have you with us hi yeah good morning and also Dr Tara Murphy who's a consultant psychologist in the NHS and trustee of the sport and research charity Tourette's action good morning

Good morning Nula thanks for having me all let me start with you Tara I mentioned some of the figures there Does that sound about right to you, 300,000 children and adults? Yeah, I think that's about right. Tourette syndrome affects about 1% of the population, more common in children than adults, and more common in women than men.

Do people grow out of it then? The majority of people grow out of most of the symptoms. That's so interesting. Do we know what causes it? It's a genetic condition. It runs in families primarily, but there are environmental factors that tend to increase ticks. They don't cause it.

So, for example? Stress is one particular thing. Other factors pertinent to women in the menstrual cycle, for example. So your hormones, yeah. Exactly hormones. Which can cause stress. Indeed, yeah, and those two things have been put together. And brain development.

Ticks tend to be at their most for children between about 9 and 13 years of age. So when we're going through some of those growth sports, as it might be, I mean, I remember with John's Not Mad and even watching, I swear, yesterday, many associated with swearing or shouting obscenities. But could you explain exactly, because it's a syndrome, it can be many things? Yes, exactly. So to have a diagnosis of Tourette's syndrome, you have to have motor ticks, which are the movements, most commonly eye blinking,

but also head jerks, toe scrunching. They were some of the simple motor ticks. And you also have to have vocal ticks. So sniffing, throat clearing, grunting. And you need to have both of those sets of symptoms for longer than 12 months. And the types of ticks you've just been talking about there, the swearing ticks are referred to as copper phenomena. So they are...

Like C-O-P-E-R? No? K-O-P-P, how do we spell that? Copro, C-O-P-R-O-C-O-P-R-O-P-O phenomena. And that's actually quite uncommon, affecting about 10 or 15% of the population with Tourette syndrome. But it's often one the most impactful symptom that someone who has it has on their lives.

And with women and girls, does it affect them differently or present differently? Well, the studies are not entirely consistent, But what it seems to be is the case that girls and boys have it starting around the same sort of time, about six to eight years of age. But what the data are showing, it seems that more men grow out of more of their tics and women tend to have them as adults. So if you look at the kind of number of people coming to clinics in children's clinics, there are usually kind of four boys to one girl. Whereas in adult clinics, it's about two women to one, sorry, two men to one women. So interesting. Well, that brings me over to Wilhelmina. You're so welcome to the programme. Tell us a little bit about your experience of living with. Is your 19 now? Do you remember when it started?

Yeah, I've had ticks pretty much my entire memory life, I'd say. Even from tiny things, we can look back at the age of five and six, and I'd always scrunch up my nose. You can sort of look back on it now. And the way it's affected me over my life has differed in so many ways. That's the thing with Tourette's is that it is this sort of constant change. phenomenon that is pretty unpredictable. And so it has affected me in so many different ways, small, large and everything in between. And I still live with it today. It still impacts my daily life. But I think it's really important that you look past the person as well. You know, when I was watching the film, when I was watching the film, I swear,

I was so struck by basically how mean people were to John within that film. And I hope there was greater recognition when you were growing up. up Willamina? I'd say it's a bit of a tricky one because it definitely struck some emotional chords that film in all the right ways. But I'd say that although the awareness is better nowadays, I'm not saying it's not.

Sadly, you still hear so many kids' experiences being so negative within school, within any social sort of out in the world environment. And I think that people sometimes think they know what Tourette's is and what that means, but they have this skewed idea of what it is. Yes, exactly, which is why I brought up some of those aspects.

that perhaps people might have thought was always a manifestation of Tourette's. But with, which I found out just yesterday, that you were diagnosed by the woman sitting next to you, by Dr. Murphy, and you haven't seen each other since then? No, yes, it's been a little while. When was that? I was probably around the age of eight, maybe I want to say something like that. So over 10 years now. And I have to let people know we went to take a photograph beforehand.

And Dr. Tara says, oh, you've grown a bit because Willamina is a very tall young lady now. But eight, you know, you were saying, Willamina, that you actually were presenting probably at five or six. So that is a few years to go through, even though I'm glad you got a diagnosis when you were a child. Is that typical, Tara? Unfortunately, a lot of children don't get diagnosed as promptly as we'd like them to be. and I think that comes back to limited services across the NHS. The usual age of diagnosis is about 9 or 10. Thinking about onset, is it about 5, 6, 7?

And in my career, I've worked with a lot of adults who haven't been diagnosed until their 60s or 70s. Yeah, yeah. I'm just wondering, what was, you kind of glossed over it in a little way, Willamina that has been good, bad and in between various experiences. But how was school, for example? I'd say that the typical school environment, you know, classroom exams, is in pretty much no way set up for a child with threats. Nearly everything about it is a challenge.

And I think that I was really lucky that I found my music from quite a young age that I love and I threw myself into. And it's something that I can always thriving because I don't tick. And I think that, to be honest, is the only thing that got me through. Let's talk about that. Because in, I swear, as well, this wonderful man, John Davidson, puts together at Tourette's weekend and part of it is using percussion drums for some of the children that are there. What do you do? Yeah, so I am currently a student studying percussion. How lucky. I know. Look at that. And if you can explain to us the difference between when you're

playing and when you're not. Yeah. I kind of describe it in a way that whatever part of my brain it is that the ticks come from essentially when I'm playing music when I'm in that so concentrated and immersive environment the part of my brain that gives me the ticks it just doesn't have the time of day to input it's so

engrossed and there's so much going on and it's just like it melts away and I think it's almost beautiful yeah because and I don't know whether this is the situation for you I'm going on a lot of what I saw on the film last night Willamina but I did think it must be so tiring really for you mentally or physically

if you're trying in any way to hold back on any tics or really manifestations of Tourette's. Yeah, I'd say that actually one of the hardest things sometimes isn't necessarily the ticks. It is that feeling of having to hide them or I'm about to get on a bus with loads of people I don't know. Do I feel comfortable? And especially actually my experience being a girl

and having friends with it is that sometimes there is, does feel more of that pressure to sort of hide it, keep it in, and it did take me a lot longer to sort of feel comfortable and freely tick, which I think is something that's so important because it can really change someone's life, that ability. Yeah, and do you feel you can do that in public?

Honestly, it will depend on the situation. As soon as I'm with someone that I'm comfortable with, I feel way more at ease, but you still come across day-to-day experiences that unfortunately don't necessarily lead you in the best situations. Tara, I was reading that women with ticks have a higher rate of depression than men. Why is that?

Yeah. I think some of it comes back to what Willamina was saying. Some of the stigma associated with it, the pressure. What studies here in the UK have shown is that a lot of women with Tourette syndrome feel they have to avoid situations. And some studies also show anxiety is highly elevated in women with Tourette syndrome.

In addition to OCD, obsessive-compulsive disorder. That that can also be in compulsory. opponent. Exactly. And with Tourette syndrome, because it's a syndrome, it's actually a whole lot of different challenges for a person, a lot of conditions occurring at the same time. And explain that a little bit further. Yeah, 90% of people with Tourette syndrome will have at least one other additional condition. The most common one is attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. And if that goes undiagnosed, as it has been for a lot of women, that can have quite profound impact on someone's life. I'm wondering Willamina, how did you find percussion? Like, how did it come to you or did

somebody suggest it? Yeah. Actually, as a kid, lots of people started telling me, you know, oh, you should start playing the drums. Funnily enough, I did start out my musical journey playing the cello from quite a young age. So that was my instrument. It still is, still got a very big pace of my heart. But as I grew older and I started doing more practice and, you know, getting more, I guess, intense with it, I found that percussion gave me this ability to practice all sorts of different instruments and it gave me this ability to, okay, if one thing I was struggling with today, there's like 10 other things I could be doing and it really gave me that variety that I think my brain really needs a lot of the time, that sort of ability to take three things

at once and do them all at the same time. Like superwoman. But you know, at the end, at the end of the film, and I'd be really curious how you felt about this, Willamina, as well. There is a device. He goes to Nottingham, which is underway, these trials at the moment and research into Tourette syndrome and it's I don't know almost like a smart watch sort of thing

is what it looked like to me in the film Neo pulse and he wears it and it pretty much in the film anyway it'd be fictionalised to a certain extent

I'm sure but removes the ticks or calms the ticks down what's happening there yeah so that's a medial nerve it's a direct impact on a nerve that relates to the part

of the brain that causes ticks essentially. And that is one of several direct interventions on ticks, which I think has its place. I think it's very useful. But as Willamina just said there, I think for people who have Tourette's syndrome, it's about their identity.

And it's about living well with Tourette's, which is actually much more important than having something that stops you having Tourette syndrome, I would say. This is what I'm wondering, you know, do you embrace it for all that it gives you the ups and the down? or would you be interested in something that would be able to remove that from your life? Don't get me wrong on those bad days when I'm really struggling and it's painful and I'm exhausted

and I can't do what I want to be doing. Yes, maybe that magic wand would be brilliant. But on the whole, I'd say that it's not who I am but is definitely sort of shaped who I am today and I don't think I'd be the same musician or even person, like some of my personality traits have really come from that. And I think that lots of the problems with Tourette's aren't the Tourette's. It's the surrounding social culture that really impacts the individual. So I think obviously there is a place for it definitely, but it's not this like amazing cure that we just want everyone to stop ticking.

I think that's the wrong message to be sending. So interesting. Thank you for coming in, Willamina Dyer, and also Dr. Tara Murphy. You must be delighted to see her right. Driving. And thanks for having us. you so much. You're so welcome. I swear is in cinema now. It is a fantastic watch. I do highly recommend it. Thanks for all your messages that are coming in. I've won my 30-year-old daughter

is Tourette's syndrome. Between years are the most difficult with her stomach-crunching, floor touching type ticks. She's been to uni, got a degree and set up a new life in France, so it's not held her back. Another, Carmen, why is it always young women who want to come into tech? Older women, mothers, carers need technology to work for their needs, and we want new career directions. So says Carmen. Another, I worked in tech for 34 years and retired seven months ago. It had its ups and downs

but especially in the latter years, it was mostly fantastic. So says Kathy 84844 if you would like to get in touch. Hello, it's Ray Winston. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4.

History's toughest heroes. I've got stories about the pioneers, the rebels, the outcasts who define tough. And that was the first time anybody ever ran a car up that fast with no tires on. It almost feels like your eyeballs are going to come out of your head. Tough enough for you? Subscribe to history's toughest heroes wherever you get your podcast. It's just taken a few hundred years.

But we may now know the identity of the girl with the podcast. pearl earring. It is one of the world's most recognisable paintings. The art historian and critic, Andrew Graham Dixon, has been on a quest which we find out about in his new book, Vermeer, a life lost and found. He has spent years exploring the archives

of Vermeer's hometown in the Netherlands, but it does sound like it was worth it. Welcome. Oh, thank you so much for having me. I'm really pleased to be on. So, why has this painting been a subject of such fascination, not just for yourself, but for Manny? Because it's a wonderful picture

I mean, it's been called the northern, the northern Mona Lisa, this very mysterious picture. So beautiful, created by this great artist. And I must say, after all these years, I've been working on this book for 20 years, researching and writing it, working rather quietly. And then suddenly yesterday I see on the front cover of the Times, you know, there she is, sharing the front page with Donald Trump of all people. And it's sort of, I suddenly think, oh, gosh, that's a bit too much publicity. Well, I'm delighted you're here because we saw the story, of course,

and we wanted to know about your journey to get to the bottom of who this girl actually is. Well, I'll have to say the journey is not to do that, and the point of the book is not to deliver a scoop. Oh, I know, I'm the man who's revealed her identity. That's the demands of journalism. But what the story really is is the fact that Vermeer painted all of his pictures. For the girl with the pearl earrings's mum, she's a lady called Maria de Knaut,

all of the pictures are painted for her. Nothing like it in the history of art. You know, Rembrandt didn't paint all his pictures for one person. Constable didn't. Risedale did it. It's never happened before. And to state the obvious, she was a woman that would have been unusual to have a female patron at that time?

It's all completely unusual. And she was a deeply unusual woman. And she was part of a profoundly important and unusual and until now untold story. She was a remonstrant, which is a kind of radical fundamentalist Christian and these people believed in peace, peace on earth. They wanted to see an end to the terrible divisions

between Protestant and Catholic, Christian and Jew, Jew and Muslim. They were all about peace. They were very, very good people. And she was also a collegiant, which is a sort of splinter group that formed within the Romanistram movement. And they were really all about freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and equality for women.

Which at that time, and there was so many women that were within these movements as well, it was an education for me when I was reading about it. Fascinating. 75% of the Collegians were women. And essentially they were rebels against the Orthodox Calvinists, the men who wanted to tell them what to believe, how to believe it, how to behave, wanted them to shut up in church, never comment, never speak, never read the Bible. out loud. Women were not allowed, you know, in the whole history of Christianity, women are not really generally allowed to speak in church. These women, these Dutch women, they look back to the writings of St. Paul and they found there that in the very early gatherings, before there was such a thing as a church, where did these Christians meet?

They met in the private houses of women. Who was allowed to speak out loud? Women. and it's absolutely central to their sort of culture and their beliefs about a woman's right to be a Christian just the same as a man was the fact that Mary Magdalene Yes. Mary Magdalene, she was so important to them because if women are not supposed to speak, why did Jesus show himself first when resurrected

to a woman named Mary Magdalene? Why did that happen? But I found that so interesting. I was raised as a Catholic and Mary Magdalene was always considered like a fallen woman, even though, of course, she was the one that was at the tomb that saw Jesus resurrected. And I'm wondering her place within those movements, why was she so revered? She was so revered because she was the absolute proof.

If a man, if a pastor, a Protestant pastor came up to you as a woman and you're having your meetings and you're all speaking out loud and being enthusiastic about what Jesus had to say to the world. And he tells you not to talk. You can tell him to shut up because there's a wonderful Quaker called Margaret Feld. Vermeer's friends were friends with the Quakers. And she wrote a book called Woman Speaking Justified from the Quaker perspective, very similar to the Collegian perspective.

And she said, listen, if Mary Magdalene had kept shut, if she hadn't said anything to the apostles after Christ had shown himself to her, we would never have been saved. Humanity would never have known. And so she, that's why. And Maria Vermeer's patron, her mother was called Magdalena. She called her daughter, her only child, Magdalena. That's why.

You know, it's not just, oh, I've just had taken a punt. Could it be that this is Mary Magdalene turning to face Jesus? No, they revered Mary Magdalene. Mary Magdal was vital to their movement. That's why they called their daughter Mary Magdalene, and that's why Vermeer painted her as herself. but in the role of Mary Magdalene. So that is the clothing that we see that would be like biblical... Yes, look at the girl's face in the girl with the pearl earring.

She's turning. She's not turning to look at us. She's turning to look at Jesus. He's just said to her, Mary, it's me. And she's gone, oh my word. That's what she's turning to realise. And the painting's there to remind her forever, as a real human being, why she was called Magdalena.

It's there to remind her, you're part of us, You're part of this movement. In your actual real life, as a Dutch woman, take your right to speak, take your right to think and to comment. And these people put their money where their mouths were. You know, they were the patron, the mother of the girl, the peri. She left a third of her money to the orphans of war. Children made refugee, regardless of their religion. You know, these were really good people.

That was the thinking of the time. So this is, and when I read your interpretation of the painting, of course I went back to have a look at it again, I mean online, it's not the real thing, and began seeing it in a different way, which is a wonderful thing. You also talk about the way that she would look at us, so then the position we're being put in, basically that of Jesus, if we're looking at the painting. But do people give you, because I know when it comes to historians and art historians,

they love a good old debate. Have people come back at you pushing back? Couldn't possibly be because of this. say B or C? I think people will be bound to push back, especially, I think, until they've read the whole book. I mean, it's a 400-page book. It took me many, many years. 20 years. I'm sorry, yes, and many, many years. And the truth is that all of the paintings are, everything I have to say about all of the paintings is radically different from what's

been said before. But that's simply because what's been discovered is a radically new context for Vermeer's life and work. Nobody knew. that he was connected to these people before. That's essentially the new discovery is that this was his network. These were his people. So he's part of something that's much bigger in a sense

than just a painter's work. We believe it there. I think radical is the word that's coming to me because of those movements that the patron was involved in the remonstrance or the collagen, for example. The interpretation as well. It's been lovely having you in.

Andrew Graham Dixon. Thank you so much. and his book Fear Mirror, Life Lost and Found, is out now. Let me tell you a couple of more women in the tech industry who have been getting in touch their comments. I worked in the tech industry in a senior role until two years ago. I left when my line manager was replaced with a man who brought a culture of toxic masculinity with them.

I was not even given the opportunity to apply for this role. Shortly after I left, I was described to a female colleague as a menopausal cat lady. I worked at the company for 13 years. I saw no improvement for women during that time. Catherine also going to touch she says I worked in tech as an engineer for multiple start-ups

but was made redundant when I was pregnant with my first baby I am now not planning to go back into the tech sector because the culture of working late and difficulty taking time off means I won't be able to see my child as much as I would be able to working in other sectors

844 if you'd like to get in touch I want to turn to a three-year study that is out that has found that specially designed singing classes can help treat mothers of postnatal depression. Scientists at King's College London analysed the effects of a 10-week singing program.

This was in South London on women at risk of the condition and they found that they continued to see long-term benefits compared with those attending other play classes. Researchers say the groups could be a cost-effective NHS treatment when mental health services are stretched. I have with me

Professor Carminei Pariante from King's College who led the research. Research, and Jay Hason, mom of eight-month-old, Ezra, who finished the 10-week course that was run by Breathe Melody for Mums, and she did it in August this year. You're both very welcome. Good morning. Good morning. Good morning. Let's start with you, Jay. What was it like? Tell me what the course was like. Why is it so beneficial? It was so, so good. So, yeah, Breathe Melodies for Mums. It was just such an amazing opportunity to connect with our the moms that are in a very similar place. I remember being so nervous about it because it's like you have a new baby and you are getting out the house for a set time every week. You're really nervous about like, oh, you know, are we going to make it out on time? But it's actually such a

relaxed environment. There's just no pressure. And it was amazing. It's so mum focused that it was just incredible for my mental health. Who told you about it? How did you find it? My health visitor, actually. I think within the first like we, I can't even remember because you have so many appointments when I first have a baby. And my health visitor came out and I was feeling quite low and she recommended

breathe melodies for mums and I yeah and I put it off for a bit but I eventually decided to give it a go and I'm so glad that I did. What were you singing in the classes? It's a range of like folk songs from like different countries

across the world. You can't ask me what it's about No, that's okay, but that gives me an idea. I have no idea. They can be singing about anything. So no baby songs or children's songs. No, no, no. It's not like children's songs. It's just different folk songs from across the world.

And yeah, they're really, really nice. They're kind of call and response songs. Yeah, really, really nice music. Well, we'll Carmine here. Tell us a little bit more about this study. Well, we studied about 200 women. two-thirds were randomized, so they were allocated to the singing intervention. These are the groups that have been described.

And these are groups of about 8 to 10, 12 women that meet once a week for 10 weeks. And then we compared them with a group of women. They were just attending kind of standard locally available. Mom and baby. Exactly. And we measured the depressive symptoms. They were all depressed at the time of the entry of the study. so they all had postnatal depression.

And what we found is that over the duration of the intervention, there was an improvement in depressive symptoms. But most strikingly, six months after the end of the intervention, not only this improvement was still there, but there was a clear difference with the control group. So there was a beneficial effect that were long term. So not just for the weeks that women were attending. Did you find that, Jay?

Yeah, a million percent. It's definitely just, it strengthened my body. bond with my baby. And I think, yeah, it's definitely had really long-term impact on my mental health. I've made lifelong friends from the group. Yeah, it's been, yeah, I think this is the kind of thing that is going to just stay with me forever. How common is postnatal depression? Well, it's becoming more and more common. So it was about the kind of classic statistics were one in eight to one in ten women in the postnatal period. But then it was one in six about 10 years ago and one in four during COVID.

It's going up, and it's not only COVID, although COVID really had kind of dramatized, they all accelerated the whole. Why else then, do you think? I think it's just a worsening of a kind of social situation. We know the main risk of postnatal depression are actually mental health before the perinatal period and social support, both in terms of human contact, but also of financial and economic circumstances around the time of pregnancy. And of course, you know, we have a progressive deterioration of the support available to women. And I think that's where the women in the perinatal period, the mental health of women in the perinatal period, is the one that suffered most because it kind of signal all, if you like, all of the mental health problem in the society. Right, right, that they can kind of be the canary and the coal mine. Absolutely, the canary.

But, but Carmine, I mean, who came up with this idea of let's try singing for women? There has been quite a lot of literature, like a lot of studies done over the years on the positive effect of singing. Sure, I've heard that, yeah. And then for the last 10 years or so, there have been smaller studies that have looked specifically at this intervention, the singing group. And the welcome, which is, you know, this large charity that funds medical research, they decided to give quite a lot of money to do this very large and conclusive study to demonstrate the beneficial effect and also the long-term beneficial effect, which we managed to find. But, you know, I suppose the unique thing about this group

is that it's focusing on the mothers and not on the babies. Is that the key, do you think? Is it the singing or is it the women finding a spot? What is it? I think it's a combination of all that. So the women certainly have described, as J.S. said, have described a feeling of connection between them. They're always the same women throughout the whole 10 weeks.

they kind of link also outside through WhatsApp group. But there's something special about singing. We know from other research that kind of decrease the stress levels and has kind of created a sense of bonding. We also measured the actual bonding between the mother and the baby. And Jay has mentioned this, but we actually measure it using standardized instruments. And again, we found that the singing intervention improved the bonding between the mother and the baby, even the way the mothers would talk to the baby.

So it's really giving the mother's skills that allow them also outside the singing class. Can you remind me again, how old was your baby in the class? When we started, he was about for three months. Okay, so you're really at the beginning. And other people's babies about the same age? Yeah, I think all the babies were around like the three. Well, I think the youngest baby in the class was about eight weeks old. And I think the oldest was probably about.

four months. Were you always a singer? I'm just wondering where you're like nervous going into such a situation because some people are like, oh, I can't sing, I can't join a choir. Oh, I do amazing singing in the shower. That's about it. I'd never really sung in a group setting or publicly or anything like that. I just, you know, I think, you know, when you have a baby,

learn nursery rhymes and stuff like that. And so I was like, do you know, it'll be good. a lot of the time in us soothing him to sleep, I'd be singing to him. And so I was like, could be great to learn some new songs, get some new songs in my repertoire. I wonder, though, as well, Carmine, and you can pick up on this. If you sing, you have to make yourself vulnerable, right? There's a level of vulnerability there. And I suppose it's a group of people being vulnerable together in some ways.

Absolutely. And the first thing to stress is that is led by train artists. So it's not, if you like, a kind of a self-directed group. the artists that through breath art health research actually that get trained in delivering this intervention you know only in the

just in the singing but how to bring all the women together and certainly the feeling of vulnerability and the fact that they're all kind of expressing the artistic capacity in different ways and a non-judgmental really no pressure

no judgment or environment contributes the kind of beneficial effect and you're still meeting up Jay with some of these women. Oh yeah, for sure. We had such a good time and we were doing it that we decided because we were already always free

at a certain time on a certain day. We decided to keep going. So we finished it a few weeks ago but now we saw me up at the same time every week. And it's great because, you know, you get together like your partner. Normally it's just you guys at the group but now your partners get home

and they're like, it's carnage. Let me leave it there, Carmen A. And Jay, thank you both. so much. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello there. I'm John Kaye, and I just wanted to tell you there's an update in my true crime investigation, Fairy Meadow, which tells the story of a little girl called Cheryl Grimmer.

She vanished from Fairy Meadow Beach in Australia more than 50 years ago. Our podcast from BBC Radio 4 has had hundreds of emails from listeners, including potential witnesses who think they might have important information. So in our new episode, I hear their stories and find out what response they've had from police. And we catch up with Cheryl's family as they step up their campaign for justice. Subscribe to Ferry Meadow on BBC Sounds.

Hello, it's Ray Winston. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4, History's Toughest Heroes. I've got stories about the pioneers, the rebels, the outcasts who defying. tough. And that was the first time anybody ever ran a car up that fast with no tires on. It almost feels like your eyeballs are going to come out of your head. Tough enough for you? Subscribe to history's toughest heroes

wherever you get your podcast.