Woman's Hour - 15/12/2025

Episode Date: December 15, 2025

Women's voices and women's lives - topical conversations to inform, challenge and inspire.

Hello, this is Neula McGovern, and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. Hello, and welcome to the programme. Around one in eight women were victims of sexual assault, domestic abuse or stalking in the year to March 2025, according to the Office for National Statistics. And those figures are something the government is hoping to drastically reduce. Now, after long delays, it has released some details on a much-anticipated new strategy to combat violence against women and girls we will discuss. Also today, reaction to the shootings on Bondi Beach

targeting Jewish people who were attending a Hanukkah event. Also this hour, we'll chat to this Scottish soul singer and songwriter, Brooke Combe, about her debut album and also why she left what she described as the confines of a major record label. And what about this survey that we came across this morning from the firm Halfords? Out of 2000 adults, it found nearly half of young women

were confident in pay. painting and decorating, compared to just 28% of young men, showing a reversal from previous generations. And I'm wondering, is that you, whether you're younger or older? Well, we have a couple of DIY experts, so if you want to share your home improvement wins or indeed ask a question, the way to get in touch is as usual.

You can text the program. That number is 84844 on social media where at BBC Women's Hour. Or you can email us through our website. for a WhatsApp message or voice note, it's 0-3700-100-14444. But let us begin. As the government is set to unveil its long-awaited violence against women and girls strategy a little later this week, aiming to have such violence within a decade. The Home Secretary, Shabana Mahmoud, has described violence against women and girls as a national emergency.

We have had some early releases of what will be in the strategy, which I should say has been delayed three times. Some mentioned include establishing specialist rape and sexual offence investigation teams in every police force across England and Wales by 2029. Additional plans involve funding undercover units to tackle online abuse and also rolling out domestic abuse protection orders. We'll speak about all this. Joining me are Andrew Simon, Director of the End Violence Against Women Coalition and Harriet Wisteridge, founder and director of the Centre for Women's Justice. Welcome and good morning to both of you. Let me begin with you, Andrew.

There have been delays, as I mentioned. Your reaction to the strategy being released this week? So we're not pleased that the strategy is finally being announced. We think it has potential. Do you know, Andrea, forgive me. I'm going to jump in there. I can hear your line is in and out a little bit. I'm going to go over to Harriet while we get your line sorted.

Harriet, what do you make of the timing? Well, oh gosh. I've got you, I think. You've got me, okay? Yes. Okay. I think we've had very, sorry, let me just start that again. Sure.

We've had a very long delay in waiting for the Vogue strategy to be announced. Both Andrea and myself were actually on the strategy advisory board, and we were expecting it to be announced in potentially as early as the spring, and it's been delayed a long time. And although we were given the opportunity to input into the strategy, that never really happened. So this is really, really late. Obviously, it's an incredibly important commitment by the government of violence of women in a half decade.

it's a very over-ambitious strategy and we're yet to see really the detail of how that's going to be achieved. So, yes, we're looking forward to seeing the detail, the announcements we've seen so far. Don't go very far, but we'll see what else they've got to say. Well, let me go back to you, Andrea. I think we've reconnected with you.

Your reaction to the strategy being released this week? And we said that the delayed strategy I was the way needed and we know the prejudice forgive me Andrea forgive me for doing this it's still just not good enough for our listeners to be able to hear you well

we're going to get that rectified let me come back to you Harriet and you know I was struck there that you said the input never really happened that you were expected to give yes that's um there's an echo

And I'm going to try to do you quite sure what's going on. We have Gremlins in the works this morning technically, I'm sorry to say. Let's give it a go, Harriet, and see how it goes. Yeah, so the problem we've had is that we haven't as yet an opportunity to really import into it. There have been some roundtable discussions, but very, very sort of kind of lightweight, I think. And we were sort of disappointed that we couldn't import directly into the strategy. We are told that we will be, you know, it was a matter for the government to decide on the strategy and that we would then do that inputting.

The problem is that the, in order really to understand how to tackle violence against women, one of the key things is to hear from the bottom up, from survivors. and the organisations that we work for are working with the frontline organisations that work with survivors. So we're hearing precisely what is going wrong and that's where we can bring some expertise in to help. So let's jump into some of the details that have been announced thus far. Let's start with the specialist rape and sexual offence investigation teams. They say in every police force by 2029, I believe half of the police forces already have. systems like this in place, your thoughts on that timing and also the difference that that

might possibly make, Harriet? Yes. Show my sound off again. Yes. So basically, kind of not quite clear what this is because most police forces do actually have specialist rape and sexual violence units already, I think, the majority do. The problem with those units is that they are not well resourced and they don't have good leadership that many of the people in those units are not very well trained. So if what it

means is that those units will be properly trained, that they'll have people working in them who really have a specialism, who are supervised properly, and that they're able to take on the volume of cases. We've heard quite a lot about these ginormous delays that are happening in the courts around the trial of rape. But actually, the delays are also very much with the police. And we're looking at cases where police are taking several years just to investigate before cases even charged, if it is charged. So you're seeing that pressure, there's a dropout rate from many victims who can't cope with the level of delay. Now there are changes, there are some small changes here and they're taking place aimed at improving that. But, I mean, you know,

sometimes people are waiting years and years. Once their cases charge, they're then waiting for this extra time that the courts are taking. So there has, that there does have to be proper training. There does have to be, you know, really skilled personnel, not just some people staffing in order for those specialist rape and sexual assault units to work well. And let me turn over to Andrea, who we've reconnected with. What difference do you think having a specialist unit in place makes to women when they're reporting a rape to the police? I think that all victims ultimately deserve the kind of care and support and sensitivity

you'd expect when they take a very courageous step to come forward and report. happened to the police. And we know that fundamentally that being treated fairly, being respected and having belief within the criminal justice system, it's just as important to victims and securing a conviction often. And time and again, we know victims say the process is retramatizing. So part of delivering a better service is having investigators who are empathetic, who actually know how to build strong cases, and pursue all relevant lines of inquiry. We want to see that police forces prioritise rolling out of specialist teams well before the government's deadline of 2029. If it takes until 20209 will be concerned that there'd be inconsistent responses across the country to victims depending on where they live.

And a postcode lottery on this is not really acceptable. But we know there's been a big national drive under Operation Ceteria to ensure that officers are also using specialist knowledge of sexual offending behaviour to build strong cases. against perpetrators, which focus around their actions, looking at suspects rather than having this undue focus on the credibility of victims. You've heard about this before, that a lot of cases turn on myths and stereotypes very unfairly over victims' behaviour when it comes to rape. So it's a really important cultural shift that specialism has brought back to all forces across the country.

But I suppose, you know, the three years that we're talking about at this point, the government's deadline, to staff up and to get people trained. with the specialism, the sensitivity, the knowledge that they would need. And if it's only in half of the police forces already, as was discussed by Shabana Mahmoud, I imagine that's going to take quite a bit of time, Andrea. This work has already started. The rollout of Operation Coturia has been ongoing for a number of years.

But we are seeing, as Harriet mentioned, really lengthy delays of the victims, both pre-charge and then, obviously, post-charge, whilst they're waiting two plus years in many cases for their rape case to be listed for trial. So I think we need to be lifting expectations around how we treat victims across all parts of the criminal justice system at the same time,

which means ensuring that the victims also receive support from sexual violence advisors, that they can access the specialist rate counselling they need and that the criminal justice process improves and we don't leave victims in limbo for so long. So that is one aspect that has been mentioned. And another Harriet is to roll out domestic abuse protection orders. Can you explain what they are?

Yes, the domestic abuse, I'm going to turn off again. The domestic abuse protection orders are something that actually was originally announced under the previous government in the Domestic Abuse Act. and they are a more effective protection order that can deal with all sorts of different types of threat and offending in a domestic abuse relationship. And they have been piloted in the last couple of years and they also have a much longer time zone so people and a longer prison sentence of breaches of those orders.

So, you know, they're a good thing. The question really is, well, to what extent will they be being used? We did a piece of work a few years ago on the predecessor of DAPOs, which were called DVPO's domestic violence protection orders, and found that they were very, very rarely used at all by police forces. So only 1% of cases where they could have been used were they being used.

And so the kind of key question really with these kind of orders and powers is the extent to which they're being used and the extent to which they're being properly enforced and implemented. Otherwise, you know, they're not worth a great deal. You know, there may be some very successful pilots and sometimes when a pilot's taking place that there's a lot of resourcing and work around making sure it works. So what we need to see is that being rolled out really effectively because I think too many victims of domestic abuse, you know,

as we see in these terrible domestic homicide cases are just not getting the protection even when they are calling out for help. So it's very important that we have protective orders that work. And, you know, that's something we wait to see. Yeah, and of course the measuring of it then as well to see qualitatively the difference that it's making. I mentioned a figure at the top of the program, Andrea,

which was around one in eight women were victims of sexual assault, domestic abuse, were stalking in the year to March 2025, according to the ONS. The government is looking to extend Claire's law to include offences such as stalking, sexual assault and harassment. Can you remind our listeners of Claire's law? Yeah, so, I mean, we would welcome plans to extend Claire's law to other violent skates, women and girls' sentences.

Details under Claire's law can be shared about convictions or allegations of assault, false in prison and murder, which may not already be in the public domain about an individual. So Claire's law disclosures can be life-saving, but they also rely on people who've come to the attention of the justice system, and we know that many perpetrators of violence, women and girls will not. And so it's really important that those are making these requests are not long as a false sense of security, almost, if they return nothing. If they've got concerns about partners' behaviour, it's still very much worth them acting on that and reaching out for help. But we also know that the way the scheme has been implementing is not operating as efficiently as it could everywhere.

There is a huge need to improve how the police are sharing information, and particularly as the awareness of Claire's law, which is the domestic violence disclosure scheme, to give it its proper name. And the rate of right to ask applications by the public are growing. There's going to be more demand on police forces. And currently, they take far too long to respond to these requests. Many of them missed the 28-day deadline there is for responding, but there's also huge variations in disclosure rates between different police forces with some rejecting most of the requests they receive

and others responding to the vast majority of them. So again, it's a bit of a postcode lottery which can be linked to many things like different police workloads and the levels of resourcing they put into this. Right. So which is a similar, I suppose, question or concern no matter which aspect of this strategy,

that we talk about, what I hear from both of you. Another one, Andrea, one of the areas, I believe that some were surprised to hear is that there will be undercover units to tackle online abuse. I think it's 2 million that they mentioned the funding would be for that particular aspect. Your thoughts? So this is an interesting one. At the moment, there's scanty detail on how it will actually operate. But from what we've heard so far, we are certainly looking for improvements in the response

to tech-enabled violence against women and girls. And we know that online offending is really poorly understood and enforced against currently. It's very often not taken seriously enough and victims feel minimised or unprotected when they do go to the police to report some kind of online harm against them. It's worth reminding ourselves that most violence against women and girls offending will have an online footprint now. You know, perpetrators of domestic abuse increasingly using different types of modern technology to be able to coerce and control of. victims, and fences like stalking will always have an online element to them. So whilst we do want to see more detail on what these online covert war units will end up doing, we're clear that all policing, particularly the new, particularly rape and domestic abuse

trained officers, need to have some training, some specialism in investigating the online elements of offending, because that's just what it looks like for most victims today. Interesting that it's not siloed, so to speak, when it comes to the various offences. Harriet, you will know, of course, the government's ambition is to have violence against women and girls in a decade. How hopeful are you that that will be achieved, given what has been announced so far? At the moment, I mean, we always felt that this was an incredibly ambitious target. We don't know what the metrics are about how they're going to measure that, which is a very important question. as yet the announcements we've seen have often been sort of repeat announcements and kind of small things

so clearly addressing violence against women isn't just about criminal justice it's about prevention and it's about all sorts of other ways in which you should tackle it. Could I just make one point that's really important to us? And I think the key to a lot of the effectiveness of a criminal, justice response around violence against women is actually having a proper understanding of what violence against women is, what coercive controlling behaviour is, and being able to tackle it in an intelligent way. And one of the big issues that we're seeing, and I think it's on the increase, is more and more victims being arrested and being criminalised because of a lack of

understanding and also because abusers are becoming very adept at manipulating systems. So they make counter allegations. And then you're getting this kind of completely wrong use of police resources or criminal justice resources in terms of criminalising the people who are victims. And that one of the things that we've really been saying is you've got to look at, not just, you know, violence, you know, dealing with perpetrators, but actually looking at the whole system and also not just separating out female offenders as a separate category because actually many of the women who offend are actually victims of abuse. Is there an example? Sorry, Harriet, for speaking over you. Is there a sort of example you can

give us with that of how that might happen? Yes, sorry, I missed the beginning of that. Sorry, forgive me, I'm stepping on you as well just with our technical glitches. Is there an example that you can give to us on how that might happen when you want people to see the whole picture? You mean in terms of... In the sense of somebody being a counter-alligation. What we see is many cases where police officers are called to the scene of a domestic and then they're a counter-allegation. So the person who's the victim is very distressed.

and the person who's the suspect is very calm and, you know, and police are sometimes arresting the wrong person now. We're seeing not just, you know, counter, not just at the scene of the crime, but also more widely, that abusers are kind of getting quite adept at working out ways in which they can get women arrested. There's a very interesting case, actually, that just the outcome we finally heard, on Friday of the man called Robert Rhodes, who had a second, a retrial for killing his wife.

He was actually acquitted the first time, and now he's been convicted. I've been following this case quite closely. And the interesting thing about that case is that he groomed his young child to make allegations against his mother, against the child's mother, for the murder.

took place and groomed the child to be to be incomplete in that murder and that the fact that there were these previous allegations made meant that the the woman was treated as though she was the abuser and that was partly went to why the jury at the first trial found her in his favour and acquitted him very very very dangerous man Harriet Wistrich, thank you so much, founder and director of the Centre for Women's Justice. We also had Andrew Simon, director of the end violence against women coalition. We did get a statement from the government, a spokesperson said.

It is our mission to have violence against women and girls within the next decade. This requires a total transformation across government. Our violence against women and girls strategy does exactly that. It is a target of preventing these awful crimes, tackling perpetrators so they can't offend again. helping victims to get justice. Thanks very much to my guests this morning. This is a story, of course, that we will continue following throughout the week. Do stay with Women's Hour for all the developments.

Now, I want to let you know the second episode of our new podcast, Send in the Spotlight, is out today. You can catch it on BBC Sounds. We're busting myths and giving you top tips on EHCPs, four letters that take just a moment to say, but can be a very long and frustrating battle to actually get one. EHCP stands for an education, health and care plan. It's the highest level of support for a child with special educational needs or disabilities. Here's a little of one of my guests, Jade and her story trying to get one for her son. It was the only way I can describe it the most difficult year of our lives for our family.

It was absolutely exhausting and we just felt completely alone in a system that we didn't really understand and we didn't really know how to navigate. Our son, who struggles, he's the youngest. We have other children that sailed through school without any problems, neurotypical children. And we knew very early on with our son, there was something different there and that it would look different for him, his education.

But it was really hard finding the right support for him. And it's all been really within the past year. It has. It's quite new to us, yes. He struggled from when he started school. but things got progressively worse and we found it was getting to crisis point really and the school was saying to us

we don't know if we can meet need anymore that was Jade you can hear what happened next for her and her family on Send in the Spotlight Episode 2 on BBC Sounds which is out now and while you're there hit subscribe and you will get all future episodes automatically I also want to thank everybody who's got in touch

about the podcast we really appreciate receiving your messages Now, a couple of messages also coming in this morning on DIY. I recently opened up and restored my 1929 house fireplace and wooden mantle after it had been boarded up for 70 years. I absolutely loved it and it found it gave me a huge confidence boost in my ability to turn my hand to further DIY projects. Well, that's one woman.

Do you love it or loathe it when it comes to DIY? Do you put those jobs off or you jump right in? Well, according to a survey, that's in a lot of the papers this morning. Nearly half of younger women say they were confident in painting and decorating compared to just 28% of young men. The stats are from the firm Halfords. It does motoring and cycling. And they say its study revealed a reversal from previous generations.

So joining me are two women who know a lot about this world. We've Vicki Lee, known online as the Carpenter's daughter, a DIY home improvement blogger and YouTuber. And we've Caroline Henn, founder of Be Practical DIY in Bristol. and she runs courses aimed at making DIY accessible. Good morning to you both. Morning. Let me start with you, Vicki.

Are you surprised to see those figures that surge in confidence in young women? I'm really not. Only because, well, the main thing is because so many people now are, well, so many women are creating content on social media. And I look at my demographics and Instagram, I've got a 50-50, well, 51% female audience, whereas YouTube, which I've been doing for years,

it's only 20% of females. Now, no matter how much I try sharing in-depth DIY content, I can't seem to shift that over the last 10 years. But there's so many easy-to-digest acts on Instagram, where also brands are hopping onto that trend as well, where if you go, for example, on B&Q's page, which with content creators, it's mostly women. And it's really empowering

seeing other women doing DIY. It's very soothing, I find or very rewarding to watch these transformations. And I was just thinking Vicky, you're known online as the Carpenter's daughter. Was the carpenter a mother, father?

My dad, and interestingly enough, there's one job that I absolutely hates and it's painting and decorating. He'd rather build sheds, do loads of other, well, even... well, all sorts of fitting a kitchen, but we will always hire out a painter and decorator because he absolutely hates it.

And for you, what's the favourite DIY job? I would say just seeing big transformations like tiling a kitchen, building, decking, installing gravel driveways or patios. I hate corking. And it's quite, I'm not a big fan of painting and decorating unless I see colour changes pop. Well, let me bring in Caroline.

Good to have you with us as well, Carolyn. So you are seeing people who are a little bit less confident, but have the inspiration or the aspiration to try and get better. How do you see it when it comes to gender? Yeah, well, most of my customers are women. Are they? About 90% of my customers are women. And the men that come are men who are brave enough to admit

they don't know how to do DIY because society expects. and to be able to do it, I think. That's funny, isn't it? And what sort of jobs do they want to learn? Where does it... And I suppose you're probably starting with brass tacks, no pun intended, with some people, but just give us an idea.

Yeah, I think most people, they want to know how to use a drill. Most people are terrified of using a drill. And that's the first thing that they want to learn. So that's probably the first thing that I teach them, really, because I think if you feel confident using a drill, then everything else starts becoming so much more. more doable. And it doesn't take a lot to learn to use a drill. Okay. What about that figure that

I mentioned at the top, the younger women, you know, half of them confident in painting and decorating compared to the 28% of young men. I'm fascinated by what you say. Some men feel they're expected to know how to do it without actually learning any skills. Yeah. I mean, it doesn't surprise me. And I think the reasons that Vicki said is that, you know, social media is making practical stuff so much more accessible to people and I think younger women are more likely to watch it than older women

and so that's where they get their confidence from but I think sometimes some of the videos show perfection and when it doesn't quite go according to plan when you tackle the job on your own at home that can not confidence which is a bit frustrating for people and I think a lot of people rents these days

so they don't actually get the opportunity to try stuff out because they can't touch their, you know, the house that they're renting. So until they own their own home, they don't get a chance. And then when they own their own home, it's terrifying because suddenly it's all their responsibility and they don't really know where to start, which is where I come in, really. So I run a service called DIY assist. So I actually go and help people in their homes as well. So I go and teach them DIY in their own homes.

Well, it's great as far as I'm concerned. I get to drink their tea and they get to. to the tools and do the job. So you're kind of teaching a woman to fish, so to speak. Yeah, absolutely. Now, what about, I'm just thinking, Vicky, do you show always those parts as well when it doesn't go right? Because I think that does put a lot of people off.

They're like, oh, if I put it up wrong or it's not level or I don't know whether it's secure enough or I'm worried about blowing something. Absolutely. But, well, I've always done that for YouTube because you've got time. annoyingly, you don't have, if you want a video to do really well on, on Instagram, for example, you can draw on that, but if you want to do one within like 15 seconds, I don't always show those bits, but I always say, go to the YouTube video to see everything. So I suppose it is a bit

of an illusion. Whether you want to break down, you know, pull every little, if you break it down into like four parts, then you've got time. And you would absolutely create a lot of engagement. And I think that's where people don't realize that showing the real bits of life, they actually make people feel more human and you're more likely to be trusted as well. Here's a message from Sally. I'm 64. I've always done my own decorating.

I learned by watching my father. I've just finished decorating my bedroom, which included re-wallpapering. I mean, that sounds tricky, Caroline. what do you think? Yeah, no, I hate wallpapering as well. Me too. What is it about wallpapering that's so tricky, Caroline? It only takes time and patience and walls are often not flat, so yeah, it's quite difficult to achieve a good finish. My mum was brilliant at wallpouring. I don't know, she just had the right kind of approach and brain for it. I detest doing it. I'd always like to get somebody else to do it for me if possible.

Well, Vicky, if somebody was starting out, where would you say? Caroline says the drill, that's great skills to have most definitely. What do you think you might add? I would say really absolute basics like filling walls, putting up a shelf, starting small. The biggest, I think the worst thing you can do is doing too much too soon because it can hurt emotionally if something. goes wrong. If you start small, you slowly add your skills and it creates a compound effect and you'll get hooked on the big transformations. Just tiling a kitchen. I know it sounds scary, but if you tiled a kitchen and it looked horrendous before, it can look absolutely

amazing by the time it's finished and you'll forget how bad it looked before. Lots of messages coming in. Let's see. I used to teach teenagers basic DIY. The young men and boys always claim to know everything, so it was always girls, sad that the boys were embarrassed. They felt that being a man meant they had to pretend to know. Here's another. So many women are already in professional manual trades. Please consider not just the DIY trends.

There are many women in building roles. Indeed, we have spoken to them here. Currently, I'm working for a female-led decorating company. I learnt my trade with a different female company 25 years ago after graduating and recently got back into decorating professionally after losing a job. So basically pointing out that there are money in the trades. I'm wondering, Caroline, have you seen a shift over the years within the industry?

Yeah, I think there are. I mean, I'm in the trades. I'm an electrician and I also do plumbing, carpentry, kitchen bathroom fitting. So that's my background and I'm definitely seeing more women doing that. In fact, I'm working with a team of women at the moment who are doing various things in people's homes. So it is growing, and I think the more visible we are, then the more it's going to encourage other people. I mean, I want to encourage some of the people

who come and learn skills with me to consider it because I think it wasn't traditionally something that they were encouraged to consider. And I would love to get more women entering the trades. It would be such a result. My mother, born 1923, always did all of our decorating, says Carolyn, wallpapering and painting, and my sister and myself have done the same.

Here's another lady. I'm 74 and a half. And I have a cupboard full of power tools, rollers, chisels, screwdrivers, case full of different screws, nail sizes, and I have never been afraid of doing my own DIY. And that doesn't even stop today. If you can knit or sew, it is an easy step, says Karen. Caroline, you are nodding your head.

Yeah, yeah. If you can use a sewing machine, you can use a jigsaw. Anyone who comes on my door to do loads to use a jigsaw. if they've done sewing on a sewing machine, they're so much better at it than anyone else. Okay, one more, Giselle. It's not just young women. We had a loft conversion five years ago when I was 55

and the house exterior painting, quote, was extortionate. I spent days in November of high scaffolding painting, white and newly plastered wall. So I look at it now from ground level and feel a huge sense of achievement. Cawking, by the way, is awful. Give it a go, is my motto. So, Vicki, they're with you, Giselle, on the cauling,

as you mentioned. Maybe somebody will get in touch who's, you know, caulking is their thing. It's just too time-consuming. Sorry, Vic. Oh, it's the time-consuming. Is that it? Yes, absolutely. I'd rather be doing something else. And also, sometimes weather-dependent if you're in some period extreme weather.

Vicky Lee, known as the Carpenter's daughter, DIY Home Improvement blogger and YouTuber. Caroline Hen is the founder of Be Practical DIY in Bristol running courses aimed at making DIY accessible. 844-844 if you would like to get in touch which many if you have been this morning thanks for your messages now I want to turn to a story of course

that has shocked many over the weekend here is a quote from one man we have survived for thousands of years light will always prevail that was one Jewish man attending a vigil on Bondi Beach in Sydney following that horrific attack on Jewish people attending a Hanukkah event yesterday

at least 15th of civilians have been confirmed dead. Authorities have confirmed that two rabbis, a Holocaust survivor and a 10-year-old girl were among the victims. Hanukkah is the Jewish Festival of Lights. It is a time of celebration and community. But we do know this isn't the only recent attack on Jewish people.

You will also remember a man attacked people outside of Heaton Park Synagogue in Manchester on Yom Kippur earlier this year. Well, with me in studio right now is the Ukrainian Jewish food writer and historian, and Alyssa Tamashkina, welcome. Thank you for having me. It is a sad morning, no doubt, and I'm just wondering how you're feeling this morning.

Well, as you've said, it is very sad and devastating, and the global community is shaken by it, Jewish but also people who care. I have lots of non-Jewish friends who have reached out, and we've been speaking. so it's devastating but at the same time I think it's just sadly or otherwise it's the reality of life there's always this tension between devastation and sadness but also that often brings a lot of light and unity and compassion from people and you talk about that unity some people were gathering last night as Jewish people as part of

heart of Hanukkah. How about you? It's very sad to say that I actually have skipped going to a gathering. I'm a mother of two small children and my partner and I made a decision not to go last night. We still had our usual beautiful ceremony at home. But I know, and I am slightly ashamed of that because I do strongly believe that this is part of the act of terror to disrupt people's normal lives, to instill fear in performing completely natural normal tasks. So I do feel heartbroken that I haven't been able to go. But the beauty of Jewish festivals like Hanukkah is that they do last not just for one day, but the Hanukkah festival lasts for eight nights. So there will be lots more beautiful ceremonies to go to. There's a menorah lighting every evening in

different parts of London, depending on which bar you live in. And I will be personally also hosting a Shabbat dinner on Friday with my local Islington Shabbat, celebrating Hanukkah and bringing people together through food and storytelling. And that's what I love about the Jewish culture. And because we had planned to speak to you about your latest book, Capusta, am I pronouncing it correctly? Yes. Which is cabbage.

Yes. And your book is a celebration of Hanukkah. Of course, you are here with us today in different circumstances. And so, of course, we wanted to hear how you, your family, are at this moment. But why did you decide to write this book? There's so many reasons. But the key reason for me, really, is the war in Ukraine. my personal lineage is Ukrainian Jewish as you've mentioned

and the war has been an absolutely life-shattering experience but at the same time it has brought me in touch with so many wonderful people globally who care and who are interested in Ukrainian history and in what's happening in Ukraine and together with a very dear friend of mine early Hercules who's a wonderful Ukrainian chef and activist and writer we started this campaign called Cook for Ukraine in 2022, and through that campaign we've been using food really as a language for bringing people together, for raising awareness and raising funds.

And while I was doing this campaign, while I was working on the campaign, you know, I've learned so much about Eastern European food culture and just seeing the way neighboring countries of Eastern Europe have come together to support Ukraine in face of the Russian aggression, it really made me want to dive deeper into my own heritage and, again, you know, use food as my language to talk about the beautiful, fascinating and often tragic history of Eastern Europe. It's such a conflict, I think, as well, what I'm hearing from you, of course, Bandai Beach that we're talking about, but then Ukraine, which has been forefront in your mind as well,

also very much in the news over the past couple of days with President Zelensky. speaking out. When it comes to the food that you have focused on, so it is broken up, cabbage, beetroot, potatoes, dumplings, carrot, mushrooms, pickle and ferment. Is that something you were very familiar with beforehand? How'd you got like deep into, for example, cabbage fritters? Yeah, so it's a real mix of the foods that I grew up with and also of my own research reaching out to people in different regions of Eastern Europe and collecting recipes. And to me, you know, the beauty of Eastern European cuisine is, again, that it comes out of very complex historical trauma. You know, there's lots of poverty. There's lots of wars. You know, Eastern Europe and Ukraine

have been the theatre for so many conflicts. But that creates a really beautiful food culture where people are very thrifty. They understand how to use everything they have, the very little they have, but to make the most wonderful, diverse and complex and flavour dishes and also knowing how to kind of enhance the nutrient quality of otherwise quite simple ingredients. So we could be going for beetroot and kidney bean stew with chard and feta, for example, we could be going for, oh, let me see, Bigos. Begos, yes, it's one of my favourite dishes.

It's originally Polish, but again, it's sort of this kind of stew is cooked around. the neighbouring countries as well. It's a really wonderful winter stew of sourcrow, so fermented cabbage, wild mushrooms, different smoked meats. It's very hearty, very nourishing. And again, just the complexity of flavour

brought through fermented elements is just fantastic. Canisius? Which I loved in New York. Actually, I've just remembered that I miss them. So, like, Ashkenazi buns with potato and sour cream.

But you used to be able to get them on the side of the street. Yes, Knieishas are such a fascinating phenomenon and I kind of went down this rabbit hole researching. They are, they used to have an absolute staple. It was one of the first sort of street foods that became available in New York where the Ashkenazi Jewish community was quite strong and growing. But then over the years they kind of become the old world food and sort of got lost, really. And I was just blown away by how delicious they are, how simple they are. and when I actually I didn't remember growing up eating them

but then when I was working on the book and my mom was here for the shoot she was helping me on the shoot of the photography for the book I gave her the Kinesh's to try and then she tried it and she's had this amazing sort of revelation remembering the Kinesh of her childhood that her granny used to make for her and they kind of got lost in our family somehow

but now they're back because I think you know as we talk about these really difficult events that are taking place and particularly with a very strong historical or current significance for you. With food, we often go to it for comfort. And I guess the Ganesh is one of those. I'm wondering what will you cook in the coming days.

You said you're also going to host a celebration to try and, I don't know, give Sukul, please, probably. Well, what I really love about Jewish culture is that food plays such a central part in so many ceremonies. So as I'm sure many people know, there are lots of very essential holidays throughout the Jewish year.

And food is absolutely central to every single one of them. And some of them, you know, they help us embody the experience of our ancestors. So, you know, on Passover, for example, there's a seder, a ceremonial meal where we eat different types of food which have very specific symbolic meaning. And that allows us to really come

into the experience of our ancestors leaving Egypt and experiencing all these complex, kind of undergoing all these complex transformations. Hanukkah is a festival that doesn't have a food that is specifically symbolic to the event that we're celebrating, but since Hanukkah is the festival of light and it celebrates the miracle of the oil that was burning in the temple

miraculously for eight nights, so there was enough oil to burn for one night, but actually somehow it was enough to last eight nights, and that was the amount of time needed to rededicate the Jewish temple after it's been desecrated by the Greeks. And since then, over time, oil became the central symbol of that miracle. And of course, oil is a huge part of our cooking practices, and therefore foods cooked in oil are the things that we make over Hanukkah.

In Eastern Europe, there's a really wonderful array of dishes that can be made that way. And in my book, I have quite a few of those. So Latkes are the key, probably the most common and popular ones that have been popularized mostly through the American Jewish cutters. Like a flattened potato. So they are grated potatoes that are flattened and fried. So they're kind of like hash browns if I had to make an equivalent. But you can lace them with lots of different flavors.

So in my book I add sauerkraut. there's a recipe for sauerkraut, larkas. You can also make Latkas, not just with potatoes, because obviously potatoes came to Eastern Europe only in 19th century. So before that, people used other vegetables or, you know, cottage cheese fritters, for example. I have a recipe for that as well. And probably my favorite one is the capusta cabbage fritters with dill and green.

And the cabbage, you know, in Irish it's caboste, which I was like, it sounds so similar, right? Capusta, cabostashter. And when I was looking at it yesterday, but that, I suppose, is the first love of this particular book. Completely. Yes. Caposta is indeed that. And so you will celebrate in the coming days.

You were born in Siberia. I just want to know. Yes. I mean, what food was there just before I let you go. Well, I was born in the Soviet era, so the tail end of the Soviet Union. And there was a standardized menu. knew that people across the whole vast region that was controlled by the Soviet state consumed. But because I was growing up in a Ukrainian Jewish household, we did have lots of things like

Babkas and Kineshes and, of course, there was borsh and ruggler. Which is like a beetroot soup, iconic Ukrainian soup. What would I say? Solves everything. Yes, it's definitely a soul food for me for sure. Yeah, well, maybe some borsh in the coming days as well. That too, yes. Thank you so much for coming in.

Alyssa Timoschkina, her cookbook, Capusta, is out now. And, of course, with the story when it comes to the Bondi Beach shootings, you can follow updates on the BBC News website. They've had a live page going with updates as they come in from Australia. Thank you very much for your messages that are coming in on DIY. Let me see. I'm a man who always listens to Women's Hour. is Desi. I would hazard a guess

that the reason why so many women are doing great DIY is because they just got fed up with waiting for a man to get round to it. Desi said that, not me. Another, I learned to replace the cords on my sash windows and like your interviewees started small having watched YouTube videos. I went on to train

in inverted commas a male friend so he might do it professionally. I'm currently listening to the show while resealing our bathtub. Me and my husband moved into our house nearly three years ago with a one-year-old and have since had it now 10-month-old. Even with the kids, I've done so much DIY in the house.

I love it. I really enjoy the feeling of making a house a home. I've tiled on wallpaper the kitchen, installed faux paneling in the hall, painted four rooms in the house, including a mural on my son's bedroom. My husband has only helped with moral support. My mum always did the DIY when I was little, so I've certainly been inspired by her attitude. 8-4-844. Lots of your messages coming in. Thanks very much. Right, let us move on to the Scottish soul singer, Brooke Come. Now, Brooke first came to prominence with her debut single, Are You With Me?

You might also remember her cover song of Yes, Sir, I Can Boogie. That actually became Scotland men's football team's unofficial anthem. Maybe we'll start hearing it again since they've qualified for the World Cup. A little earlier this year, Brooke released her debut album, Dancing at the Edge of the World. But where did you grow up, Brooke and welcome? Hello, hello, welcome. Thank you for having me. I grew up in sort of two areas in Edinburgh, just outside Edinburgh. One place, Mussobara, East Lodian, and then the other Dalkith in Midlodian.

But, you know, both the same really small towns, loads of pubs. And where is the edge of the world that you're dancing at? the edge of the world for me is the most free I've ever felt that's what that means to me whenever I'm feeling really really creative and just in a flow I feel like I'm dancing at the edge of the world I'm a picture my little feet swinging off the end or something

if the world was flat but you give us a great image there but I understand your house was very creative full of Motown, Soul, R&B, how was that? I mean, it was filled with music, but I think out of that, I was the only creative person in my house, really. I mean, my dad loved, when he was younger,

he loved to draw and things like that. And I used to maybe think, oh, I could draw, but then I used to get him to do all my art homework. So I was like, probably not the best. So I, but growing up with that kind of music, Motown, R&B stuff, you know, a lot of like Mariah Carey, Destiny's Child, Lenny Kravitz, all that kind of stuff and then, you know, Motown Michael,

Stevie Wonder, Aretha, all that stuff. So it was, I suppose it was just embedded in me from quite a young age to the point where I think subconsciously I just maybe had like this longing to do that. I don't know. That was the first thing I was exposed to, so. When was the, because obviously your voice is one beautiful instrument, but you also play others. What was the first other instrument you picked up?

My first instrument was, well, I got a little drum kit that didn't really make any noise at about five. But my actual first instrument was a trombone. Really? I started that when I was seven years old. And then I'd done lessons and stuff in primary school. But that just wasn't cool to me, rocking up. with a trombone every Monday morning. It was just like a hindrance.

What was cool? What was cool? Guitar, piano, maybe singing. Singing to me was always one of those things that like the choir did though. So I was always a bit like skeptical about that. But I did, I mean, I did always sing but just not like take it seriously, I guess. But didn't people pick up on your talent at an early age, Brooke? yes but I was somebody who I loved sports growing up as well as music

I loved football and like mixed martial arts and stuff so I think it was probably a natural thing to do that but when people would try and encourage me to sing I was just like nope no no so interesting but then you talk about football there how was it when your rendition of back or as yes sir I can boogie became the unofficial anthem for the scotland men's football team that was mad because that was really the start to this journey in my opinion that was that was the first video that went viral and it done so well and i got so many followers from it that i was like oh this is kind of cool i could maybe you know do this as a career and i had a few major

labels fishing around at that time so it was it was pretty like surreal actually because To put all of this in context, then you were voted Best Female Breakthrough Artist at the Scottish Music Awards. Island Records came. You get a major record deal and you talk about people fishing around, but you decided to then swim free, so to speak, to make your debut album. Tell us a little bit about why that was important. I think, you know, being that age 21 and being signed to a major label at that time, when you've never even done a gig really, I mean, I got so. signed and then whilst we're in lockdown I'm pretty sure um probably yeah yeah and I done my first gig the day we came out of lockdown um so it was the first live gig in Scotland which is mad my very first headline show so I mean not you know not knowing what the industry is really

about not really having experienced it it was just a little bit maybe daunting and I didn't really have much space or time to grow and develop who I was as an artist I just got thrust into it so you open for Benson Boone and his probably acrobatics on the American Art World Tour you have an upcoming tour coming next spring

with your album dancing at the edge of the world it's all going on how does it feel do you think it's a golden age for soul music in the UK as some say yeah definitely we're bringing it back 100% Britain was born on that stuff I love soul

you know the underground world of Northern Soul especially which is really cool to be a part of so absolutely golden ages on its way so you play all these instruments you sing I wanted to know do you dance to Northern Soul I'm trying to get there you know I am trying my mate's a Northern Soul dancer so I've been asking him for a few tips in that

but we're no quite at the level it's quite acrobatic I'm just thinking maybe there could be some sort of mashup of Benson Boone and Northern Seoul. Could be fair back flipping into like a knee slide and then back up on your feet. It could work. Really good to talk to you. Best to look with the tour and the

album Brooke Come. Dancing at the edge of the world is out now. Do join me tomorrow because we're going to mark what would have been her 250th birthday. Who is it? Of course, Jane Austen, her life and work right here on radio for 10 a.m.

I do hope you'll join me. We're going to have a lot of fun with that. And thanks also for all your messages that have been coming in on DIY, decorating, painting, calking and the rest. That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time. I'm Philippe Sands. And from BBC Radio 4 and the history podcast, this is The Arrest. A race against time to apprehend a seemingly untouchable man. He had filed a flight plan to leave at 6.30 in the A former dictator accused of crimes against humanity. And I found Laura there, and she says, they killed that. We cannot go in history, having been those who abandoned the Spanish victims.

And there is General Pinochet sitting in his bed and strike pyjamas. I thought, oh my God, it really is him. The arrest. Listen first on BBC Sounds. Thank you.