Woman's Hour - 16/03/2026

Episode Date: March 16, 2026

Women's voices and women's lives - topical conversations to inform, challenge and inspire.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been, no.

I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is creation myth. Available now wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, I'm Nula McGovern and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. And while you're here, I wanted to let you know that the Woman's Hour Guide to Life is back. You might have listened to some of the episodes from the first series, including ambition without burnout, or turning aging into your superpower.

Well, we've got six new episodes. for you over the coming weeks that will give you practical tips on issues like self-promotion without feeling awkward, caring for aging parents, navigating infertility with family and friends, and also how to love your face, whatever your age. I'm really excited about this series of The Woman's Hour Guide to Life, so I really hope you'll join us. You will find the episodes in the Woman's Hour podcast feed on Sundays. It's only on BBC Sounds. But now, back to today's Woman's Hour. Hello and welcome to the programme.

Well, I would say they are still partying in L.A. and also Calarney in County Kerry in Ireland, as Jessie Buckley has won an Oscar. And so becomes the first Irish actress to do so. Ireland, an island of five million, punches above its weight in artistic and literary endeavours and successes. So what's behind it as Ireland celebrates Jesse? Also today, a public art campaign

is trying to change perceptions about social workers. We know most who do the job are women. So tell me, what's the reality of being a social worker? Where are there misconceptions? And why do negative stereotypes persist? If you are a social worker, please get in touch with the positives and the challenges of that job.

Detects the number is 84844 on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. Or you can email us through our website. For a WhatsApp message or a voice note, number is 0-3-700-100-400-444. And also this hour, we'll meet the woman developing new technology that hopes to crack down on predatory men in public spaces. And we have the author Kieran Millwood Hargrave, who has a new book, Almost Life. It's a queer love story that begins in 1970s Paris that illustrates the sliding doors moments of life. Plus, little liars. About a quarter of

children understand deception by 10 months, rising to half at 17 months, we'll hear more. But let us begin with the Oscars. You'll have seen the political thriller. One battle after another was the big winner at the Academy Awards last night, but it was a historic night for Ireland and for those watching in her hometown of Killarney in County Kerry. Jesse Buckley became the first Irish woman to win Best Actress Award, honoured for her powerful performance, as Shakespeare's grieving wife in Hamnet. She had been, as you'll know, widely tipped to win. And in her emotional acceptance speech,

she paid tribute to women and mothers. To get to know this incandescent woman and journey to understand the capacity of a mother's love is the greatest collision of my life. It's Mother's Day in the UK today. So I would like to dedicate this to the beautiful chaos of a mother's heart.

Well, joining me is Evelyn O'Rourke Ortiz, Arts and Media Correspondent in Los Angeles and has been at the Oscars. Good morning, should I say that, at 2 a.m.? You know what, we're on Buckley time. We've broken all rules. We're on Buckley time in Ireland and in L.A. at the moment. So let's go with that.

Let's go with that, because that was going to be my next question. As far as I can see, Calarney appears to be still partying and across Ireland. But in L.A., I would imagine, it's the same for the Irish contingent. Oh, it's an extraordinary night. I mean, the problem was for us that she was so hotly tipped that the only way was kind of down, Lula. So arriving in, I was feeling quite constant. As the evening wore on, we all got a little more anxious because there were some upsets, which is inevitable at an award ceremony.

And at one point, I was my confidence was a little bit shaky, but we plowed on. And the problem was the category, of course, is right now. near at the end of the night. It's the second last category. So they really put you through the ring at that point. We've been to a lot of Timothy Chalamey jokes about ballet, I can tell you by that point. So by the time Mikey Madison took to the stage,

it was just a good thing that it went the way we wanted because I don't think I could have handled much more pressure. Extraordinary to be there on that night, which was historic as well Evelyn, but I understand that you got to speak to her just after the win. Tell me about that. Yes,

incredible. I mean, my official title is Arts and Media Correspondent. I've been joking that in recent times I should just be the Jesse Buckley correspondent because I've been trailing around behind Jessie all the different fest was because of course she's had such a clean sweep. It's been an extraordinary kind of an award success for her. So yes, I had to cross over to see with her to follow her to LA. So I was determined to Lula not to let her leave that room without a question. So I popped my little head and went to Evelyn Rourke-Rourke-News and she just laughed like here you are again. And I said, listen, what's your message? And she, for everybody back home,

and said, guys keep parting. But then broke into yet another extraordinary eloquent speech. I mean, you heard her there, her use of language. She's such a poet in so many ways. She's a storyteller as an artist and herself and her work. But as a person, I feel she just speaks from the soul at all time. She really moves people and connects people. How do you understand her win in the larger context for Ireland?

because they have had extraordinary success of late. Of course, there was Killian Murphy. I think that was 2023. That was for Oppenheimer that he won an Oscar. But we have had Sirsher Ronan nominated four times. Ruth Negah also nominated, but perhaps third times a charm when it came to our third actress to be nominated. How do you understand it?

I think it's interesting. I think when you look back at the history of the Oscars for Ireland in particular, you can see a story beginning to build. obviously Brandon Frickard won best supporting back in the day for her extraordinary performance in my left foot but really there's been a dearth of that kind of Oscar came for women since but then obviously Daniel Day Lewis is coming along as you said Killian Murphy there as well

but when we look at the broader context I really do feel this sort of a cultural confidence with that's quite the younger generation basically the usual standing on the shoulders of giants etc I mean Ireland has always been celebrated for its literary achievements it's musical achievement but just feels at the moment that there's a broader voice and maybe we're things in particular with acting. I mean, I look around and I see, obviously, Paul Meskut sitting behind her. You know, Andrew Scott is a familiar face there.

Barry Kogan's familiar face. There's Searsian Women, as he mentioned there as well. I mean, all the talent that is emerging from that kind of 20s to 40s age group is extraordinary. And the way that, you know, I'm seeing peeky blinders. There's Killian Murphy leading the way again in a different form as well. So I just think it does come back to that. I think it comes back to that sense of a more global perspective, that they're getting out there.

There's a confidence in their. in their performance. And there's something about them. The cast and directors just keep turning in their direction. And long may it keep going because we're loving the ride of it. Yeah, and the actor Jonathan Rees-Myers, I saw him on the late, late show, which is a Friday Night Chat Show, long running, to say the least. And he said we're a small island, but we punch so high above our weight

from an artistic and literary point of view and from a performance point of view. And also talked about that confidence as well, which I think as a child of the 70s I've seen before my own eyes as well evolved. but the government has championed it. There is a number of initiatives, for example, that tries to highlight the art or give artists perhaps a leg up. Do you want to talk a little about that? Yeah, this was kind of an interesting one.

So back in 2022, the arts minister, the then arts minister at the time, Catherine Martin, she was a Green Party member, actually. She wrote out this campaign and it was called the Basic Income for the Arts. And it was rolled out initially as a pilot programme. And the idea was quite simple at a part, really. You apply and see if you could be eligible to get a grant as an artist.

Now, foreign excess of the amount of people, places they had in the scheme applied. I think around 9,000 applied. There were 2,000 acceptors in the end. And in return, once you got on the scheme, you got a payment of €325 weekly. Now, that was a pilot scheme initially. It was committed to for three years, so it would have come to a natural end last year, but it's extended to February just gone by. It can be a little pause, but they've now,

the government has now put, I think, around 20 years. it's under 20 million aside, 20 billion euro, and they've now committed to what they're calling a more stable, permanent commitment to that scheme. That has been hugely welcomed. And my understanding is talking to the politicians and our new minister now for culture, Patcoe-Dunovan, has really backed this, I have to say.

They say that they are welcomed around the world to talk about it, that other jurisdictions are really interested in this and seem quite inspired and encouraged by this idea of supporting artists in such a grassroots way. And it's done slightly randomised can have visual artists, you can have right across the board, it comes from every type

of art form, but at its heart I suppose it's an endorsement. It's government money saying we think the arts are important and we're going to back you in your work and there's something very important possibly about that for state policy. And there's also tax exemptions which people may be aware of for artists

in Ireland, I believe it's up to an exemption of up to 50,000 euros for a work that has been created and that is a long-term policy that has been. Add value or something, I think, is the merit bar. We used to be much, much higher.

They've cut it down, actually. Yeah, it's about that. I think particularly say writers and visual artists. I mean, as we know, Lula, many, many artists don't ever, can't even dream of earning that kind of money in a year. And that's, as it goes where the scheme comes in. Which is that idea of supporting people as they possibly excel and get better and they can spend more time on their art form. Let me go back to Jessie who's now at the pinnacle. Always.

Always happy to go back to Jesse. But how do you understand her wrong? she was 17, I think, when she came to London to try and make it, which she obviously did with flying colours. Yeah, Dick Whittington style. I think she's extraordinary. I think when I look back at her career and her TV, it is quite astonishing. She was very musically accomplished.

She got to her grey-day's piano. Her mother is an accomplished singer, opera singer and harpsest. I think it's carried very likely, but I think there's huge talent there. I think her musicality has shone through. We saw her, say, obviously, without I do anything, but then in Wild Rose then latterly. But as a singer herself in her real life, she's a remarkable singer and performer.

I think when I look at her, I go, she's whatever, nearly, you know, she's so many years working on it now, but to me there's a purity of heart in her. To me, she's that storyteller. She's looking for stories that move her, and she brings the audience with her. And I think partly why Hamlet cut through the noise

for so many people is the wrongness. Like when she cries, when that baby or when that child dies, I think that screen actually was a huge part of the appeal of that performance because I think it just reverberated around cinemas and I think people recognised a rawness and honesty, a purity in her which has then been reflected by the person in real life. So the person who stands up at the Bafters,

I was in London with her for the Bafters, every time she stands up, what she has to say is so wholesome, it's inspiring, it's positive. I think in some ways that has added to her calibres and actors the person off stage as well as the person on stage. So interesting. I will tell people if they want to check out, Jessie Buckley singing, while Rose is wonderful, but her performing Troy,

Sheenaid O'Connor's Troy on the latex show, phenomenal. I'm just going to leave that out as a little treat for people. What a challenge to do that, and she does it beautifully. And as we're all on Buckley time, so to speak, I will also talk about BBC Sounds. She's done a Desert Island disc there to check it out, which is wonderful. But I want to thank you as well, Evelyn, for staying up and chatting with us here on Women's Hour.

That is Evelyn O'Rourke, the Buckley correspondent, or Ortiz, Arts and Media correspondent in the wee hours in L.A. Do head to the BBC News website to see the full list of winners and all their Oscars coverage. I want to remind you,

you'll also find our recent interview with Autumn Durald Arquapaw, who made history last night as the first woman to win the Oscar for best cinematography. In her speech, she paid tribute to the women who had advocated for her. She spoke to Anita last month

about why represent representation matters for women following in her footsteps. Whenever a woman succeeds in an area that's mostly dominated by men, I think it sends a message that all the women know that there are many women out there doing that job, but the doors aren't always open for opportunities. So when this opportunity came up and I was nominated, I just want to make sure that I give hope to all of them and say, like, you know what, there can be change. How do you even begin to set foot in an industry where no one from your background has ever done anything?

like that? I did homework. I was looking up my favorite films and I looked up to cinematographers and it was mostly men that I found and then finally I looked up the movie Blow and the cinematographer was Ellen Karras who's a dear friend now. When I saw her name for the first time I thought, oh well there's one. There can be more and it really encouraged me. You know, I think for us when it's just you see one woman out there or you see like yourself and somebody else, that is enough to give you the determination to succeed even though you're in the minority. Autumn, Durald, Archipa, speaking to us recently, the full interview available on BBC Sounds. It's from the 6th of February. Not the only Oscar winner. We've had Jesse Buckley

on, that's a couple of years ago. You'll find that on BBC Sounds too. And you can hear our interview with the team behind the Oscar winner of the best documentary short. That's all the empty rooms. We spoke to the director, Joshua Seftel, about the film, which tells the story of the impact of US school shootings on the family. that were left behind, along with the mother's Gloria Casares and Jada Scruggs. So if you'd like to know a little bit more of the context, the backgrounds to these winds, you can find them all on BBC Sounds. Now, could lasers that monitor movement be the answer to stopping violent men in their tracks?

Might sound far-fetched, but it is the brainchild of a technology strategist in Cumbria, whose own experiences of feeling unsafe in public spaces, inspired the idea. Rosie Richardson is developing a system that uses laser-based sensing to distinguish between predatory behaviour and ordinary movement in public spaces like train stations, for example.

She's in the early stage of building a tool that can flag behaviour such as lurking or tailing and triggers help at the moment that it's needed. The technology has been developed by the innovation company Creotech. It builds on systems the company already deploys to monitor passenger flows and busy transport hubs, which includes major sites like Kingscross Station in London. Happy to say, Rosie joins me now. Welcome to Women's Hour.

Thank you. Thanks for having me. Can you explain it a little bit? I think let's begin with the dots. Yeah, absolutely. So our system, because it uses effectively lots of beans of lasers that shine down on a public space, we don't lose any cameras in our system. So first and foremost, it's innately anonymous, anonymous by design, and that's really important because of the type of places that we operate in, being public spaces and the fact that actually most of the time, most of us, myself included, doesn't want their face-swashed all the time.

We don't want more and more facial recognition technology. So what we do is we shine down planes of light, and those planes of light we can detect then whether there is someone moving within the space or whether it's the space is background effectively. So what we end up with is every person is represented roughly as like a 3D blob within our space, a dot. And we can infer relationships between those people through that data. So we already work, as you said, at the likes of Kings Cross, where we look at crowd movements and mass movement of people to try and understand how we can make those spaces safer and more secure.

So what's... So forgive me. Just on that point, you talk about the blobs or the dots that people are. What is it looking at some sort of lurking that they're staying too long in one spot or they're moving around too much? What is it the technology is looking for? Yeah, absolutely. So the situation that I always describe is one that I've experienced many times. So you're as a lone woman going to sit on a platform in a train station late at night, for instance. And someone comes and walks right up and sits right next to you even though the platform is empty.

And you instantly feel uncomfortable. And it absolutely could be nothing. It could be a friend, and it could be completely no threat whatsoever. But it is a situation that is often a precursor behavior to something happening that might make you quite uncomfortable. And it's a precursor behavior to sexual predation. So what we want to do is build an early warning system that alerts to those types of things happening so that security operatives who may have, you know, 10, 20, 30 different CCTV

screens to watch any one time and can't possibly have their eyes every time. know exactly where they should be looking within the space. So what we're offering is effectively an early alert for signs of potential trouble, signs of potential warning. And we can do the same things like following behaviour. So we can look at the relationships between two people moving. And we can do things like automatically cross-cubing and camera system, for instance. So we've picked something up.

Sorry, I missed one. So in a way that you might. So if we have a location of something happening, we can then say, right, let's put a camera on that situation to make sure everything is okay. So in that situation I described in a platform at night, perhaps you spot that there is someone alone, maybe they're walking towards the edge of the platform, maybe someone joins them, just want to have eyes on that situation to know that everything is okay. And you talk about it then, alerting whoever the security staff is in that particular instance.

You may have seen the recent file on four investigation that found that sex offenders on train, are escaping justice because of serious issues with CCTV on the rail network. The BBC made a freedom of information request to the British Transport Police for details off alleged sex offences where CCTV was mentioned in the log. Now there were more than 560 reports across Britain where police requested train or station CCTV as part of the inquiry and in more than 250 of those the incident had not been recorded, there was a system fault, the footage was unusable, quality or it had been overwritten.

already. Do you have concerns about the infrastructure to be in place to support your technology when you hear that? There are huge concerns across the rail industry around the infrastructure and we have to change it and we have to upgrade it. And what we do actually adds another layer of information for people working to try and make those situations safer. So we put our own sensors into train stations and then they can be used as another layer of information. One of the things that cameras really, really struggle with is looking at anything in 3D. So understanding where anything is in the space is really, really hard, especially in an older or a grainy camera. And our technology does that incredibly well.

So the two things complement each other and can often give a much better picture and a better story than just a camera alone. But absolutely, we have to work to upgrade the infrastructure as a whole. And this is part of that story. And of course, men can also be victims of violent crime. as we talk about this technology. What inspired you to develop it? I'm sorry to hear that I believe you had an incident of sexual assault as a child.

Yeah, so I had a horrible experience in a crowded environment. I was at the Tour de France as a 12-year-old watching the race. And there was a sexual predator. There's no word for it, walking through the crowd and sexually assaulting people as he went. And he did that to me. And what I observed,

obviously, that's a horrible thing to experience. And what I also observed as a child was that people just kind of saw what was happening and moved themselves away. And that bystander effect is incredibly common. And actually, the more I've kind of come out and spoken about this in public and spoken to people about it,

you would not believe the amount of people that had the same experience, if not very similar. And our technology could have spotted that pattern of behaviour very easily because it's a very abnormal way to act in a crowd. It is not a spectative behaviour. I'm so sorry you went through that and thank you for sharing it. But you do make me think about bystandards.

Because you can't have all the technology, but perhaps sometimes a human noticing something is even more effective. I'd be curious for your thoughts. on that? Yeah, it's a tough one. I think more and more we have tried to place the onus on women and even on bystanders, and particularly women, actually to protect other women, to take the responsibility for what's happening to them. And actually, what I'm trying to do is give the security teams within a space more responsibility and more power to be able to protect the people within that space because as a woman, you may not know how to report.

You may not know whether you should. You may not understand whether something has been a sexual has made you feel uncomfortable. And as a bystander, you're probably feeling the same thing as well. And you don't know how or where you would go about doing that. And so whilst I would actively encourage anyone to intervene if they see something that makes them uncomfortable happening, I would also say that we need to protect people within spaces and make them less easy to operate within for predators. And I will, of course, mention the BBC Action Line for Links to Help and Support if you've been upset by some that you've been hearing,

as also Rosie has been so upfront and honest with us about her experience. But the thing which Manny will have come back to you is, I'm sure, about privacy. People don't want to feel they've been watched all the time. that includes women, and also those that maybe afraid of being wrongly accused of bad behaviour when they're just going about their normal day and happen to sit on a bench where there's nobody else around. Yeah, definitely. And that is a concern that gets raised all of the time.

And to be honest, that's one of the concerns that made us build the system because we've built something that is private by design. So we only look at the data in more detail if there is a cause for any kind of concern. And if that is nothing that we need to be looking at, then the data is just thrown away. There is nothing done with it. So we are only looking at the point of potential concern. So, for instance, in our crowd management tool, if we see people scatter within a crowd, we need to know who those people are and what's happening.

Is it someone's spilt something or is it actually there's a threat there? And the same thing applies to the violence against women's behavior, that two people on a platform could be absolutely nothing. If we look and it's absolutely nothing, then no worries, no danger to risk kept. But actually, I think most women would sit where I sit, which is that actually if I am under threat, I do want to know that there is a system there that can keep the data regarding what's happened to me

and also potentially alert someone as it's happening and prevent it. Rosie Richardson, thank you very much for coming on Women's Hour. The Rail Delivery Group, which represents train companies, has said that the industry takes sexual harassment and assault cases very seriously. The Woman's Our Guide to Life has a new episode this week. How to declutter. What are the objects in your home you keep looking at and thinking you must get rid of, but somehow cannot? What is the stuff you should keep?

Because it means a lot to you. And how do you decide the difference? Well, the psychologist Linda Blair joined me with her definition even of what clutter actually is. Clutter is anything that arrests your intention or your attention. in other words if it stops you doing what you had already planned to do then probably it is clutter because it's not allowing you to run your life as you wish to now what would arrest your attention it could either be something that you don't even know what it is and why is it sitting there or it could be something very emotional gosh oh that reminds me of when my kids were babies and then off you go

thinking about that so you have to decide first of all, whether it's in the way of your daily living and stopping you doing the things you want to do. If it is, then you think about, what am I going to do? Am I going to rename it and organize it? Or am I going to find a way to make somebody else happier by giving it to them? That is the Guide to Life on Decluttering, available in the Woman's Hour feed on BBC Sounds, or you can search online for the Woman's Hour Guide to Life Collection, where you will find all the episodes and nuggets of wisdom all through them.

For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed.

And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been, no. I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is creation myth. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. There is a plaque. That is going up on a wall.

That reads, To stand beside, while standing for, standing here still. It's part of a new public art project launching today, aiming to challenge the public's misconceptions about social work and celebrate the positive impact their work can have on many people's lives. 84% of the workforce in England are made up of women when it comes to social work. The artwork is entitled Social Work happens here.

It's created by the Turner Prize winning artist and former social worker, Helen Kamok. It honours the unseen social work that goes on while acknowledging some of the challenges that social workers face. So what is the role of a modern-day social worker? What are some of the difficulties that are facing the profession

and those that work in it. And why do negative stereotypes seem to persist? Some of you are getting in touch with your stories, 844. Thank you very much. I will get to them. I'm joined on the line by Sarah Blackmore, the Executive Director for Professional Practice from the Regulator Social Work, England.

And Alex Gisamides is a palliative social worker supporting people with advanced serious illness or a life-limiting condition. You're both very welcome to Women's Hour this morning. Sarah, let me begin with you from Social Work England. I mention a regulator, but tell me a little bit more about your role in relation to those in the profession. Yes, good morning, Nula. Thanks for having us on this morning.

So our role is the specialist regulator for the social work profession. So our role is to set the professional standards and the education and training qualifying standards for social workers in England. We have approximately 106,000 social workers on our register. social work is a protected title. If you want to call yourself a social worker and practice in England, you must be registered with us. So as well as setting the standards, we also, when a problem occurs,

will hold social workers to account for that. And we also inspect and quality assure all social work education and training courses in England. I just want to read a couple of the messages that came in. I worked in child protection and now fostering services and have a particular interest in using an ethic of love in social work. Throughout my career I felt that even if I'm the best social worker

I can possibly be, it's not enough when the system perpetuates narratives of shame and blame around struggling families. To be a social worker is to constantly fight to work in a way that helps people when the system makes it incredibly difficult, if not impossible. To do so,

I'd be curious for your thoughts on that, Sarah, and also how what that person is saying ties into what you are trying to achieve today. Yes, exactly. Well, I mean, firstly this week is Social Work Week, which is a week where we celebrate Social Work in all of its many contexts and the impact that Social Workers have on millions of people's lives in this country every day. And as part of that, that's the reason that we want to launch the Change the Script campaign, which wants to show the real stories of social work and to seek more accurate portrayals of the profession to transform how Social Work is viewed in society. So what do you think is the misconception?

Well, I think there are a number of misconceptions about what social work is and what it does. I mean, I'm a social worker myself and I have been for almost 30 years now. I'm really, really proud of being a social worker, but I'm often frustrated at how we are represented and some of the inaccurate judgments about us. Social workers are a hugely skilled profession, really highly trained and regulated in much the same way as a doctor or a nurse or others. I mentioned the professional standards.

We have to adhere to those. And I'm still really blown away by the variety of roles that social workers play. I think one of the misconceptions about social work is that social work only happens in child protection, for instance, and you get a negative stereotype about a social worker unilaterally taking a child away from his or her family. But actually, social workers work in so many different contexts across the country. And for example. Alex shortly. Well, you'll hear from Alex shortly about her work in hospice care.

David, who is part of our campaign, you'll see on our website, socialworkengland.org. UK is a mental health social worker working with the London Ambulance Service. I've worked with social workers who are supporting victims of the Grenfell tire. fire. So it's far beyond the really important statutory roles that social workers have in this country. And I think one of the things we want to do through this campaign, change the script, is to really shine a light on that breath and the impact that they have on all elements of society, not just in children's services. So let me bring in Alex here. Welcome. You are, as Sarah mentioned, a social

worker working in palliative care. What do you find rewarding about the role or challenges that you'd like people to know about? Thank you for having me on the show. So I work at the Arthur Rank Hospice and I'm employed via Cambridge County Council, which has the advantage that I'm sitting within two organisations. So in terms of trying to achieve the best possible outcomes for the people that we support, that's a rewarding part of my job that I've got that ability to advocate

on their behalf. I'm the only palliative social worker in the whole of Cambridge County Council. So when we talk about people being hidden, I think that's a good example of that. It is interesting because I think people might impair those together immediately.

But nearly it's 84% of the workforce for Sarah, are women. Why is that, do you think? I think there are a range of quite complex reasons as to why there are more women than men in social work, not least things like might be perceived as having a lower status and a lower salary range than some comparable occupations. And there may be some misconceptions about gender bias around caring roles, being better suited to women. But I think those, those misconceptions now are starting to abate somewhat and we are starting to see more and more men within the profession, which is really important.

And again, through this campaign, it changed the script, we're shining a light on just the variety of roles that social workers can play, which are attractive to men and women. You know, social work is about challenging injustice, dismantling oppression, advocating for people's well-being. and it's never been more needed in society where there are increasing issues in recent years that we've seen around poverty, mental health, climate change, racism and discrimination, and all of that directly impacts on the work that social workers do and where they can step in and help.

Here's a couple of aspects that we come across. I have heard criticism that there is no way to progress in your career unless you want to go into management. For example, there's no title of senior social worker as I understand it. Alex, I'd be curious for your thoughts on that. It's really interesting because I think certainly as a palliative social worker, it almost redefines what we mean by a social worker. So not only am I supporting the people, unpaid carers, I'm also upskilling social work practitioners and we're looking to do this nationwide and I'm involved in research and

opportunities to go out there and present conferences to really advocate on behalf of social workers, especially in terms of supporting people that are palliative and end of life care. So I would argue, actually, as a social worker,

and I was very determined not to go into management, I am still able to achieve a lot of those things that maybe a lot of social workers wouldn't be able to. So is that enough for you that you feel the progress is there, even though there's not the title or the progress that there would be in other professions?

I feel that I don't need a title. There's a real sense of belonging to the job that I do. Thank you for that, Alex. Sorry to jump in on you, but I have limited time and I want to get to this. Sarah, your thoughts, why isn't there like a more structured path true to seeing how you're progressing or where you might go and it not have to be management? I think that's a really important point. And I think one of the things that we're seeing at the moment is work happening to define a much clearer career pathway for social workers.

So that when you come into the profession in the beginning, you're clear what your options are. And that you don't just have to go into children's statutory social work, although that is really important, for example. But also management and leadership is really key. and what's really important for social workers is to have good role models in management and leadership. So it is a really important part of progression for the social work profession. And again, an aspect of change the script that we want to shine a light on. And I just wanted to come back, though, to Helen Kamak, who is the Turner Award-winning artist that we worked with on this campaign and a former social worker, again, showing the breadth of roles that you can have within this profession.

And she had a lovely quote, which is that social workers are special and should be celebrated. And I think that's a really important point. I think just to recognise the value that social work has to society. Because I think some of our listeners are social workers or will have engaged with social workers at some point. For others, you know, their only interaction will have been a negative headline around the outcome of a tragic case. They cut deep, they stick around for a long time. how do you build trust in the profession? Because I imagine the goal, and you tell me,

is to change the script, but also to recruit more people. We hear about the caseloads of social workers that they're completely overburdened and also retain them, Sarah. It's a really important point. And I think this is where some of the inaccurate portrayals in the media really can get in the way

of making social work seem like an attractive profession. to come into. And if you're as well, if you're a busy social worker and you're about to start on a busy day of visits, but you've seen from a show like Eastenders or a film like Precious, you know, a really negative portrayal of what you do and how you do it, it's not going to motivate you to stay in the profession or it's not going to attract you to come into the profession in the first place. And those stereotypes aren't accurate. And so, you know, One of the things that this campaign is trying to do is to change those perceptions and to show the real stories of social work. Because what's awful to think is that through the research that we've done at Social Work England,

that one in ten social workers don't feel their work is understood or valued by society. So there is a real need, for example, to show the work through the campaign that Alex, that David, who is our mental health social worker with the London Ambulance Service, and that Hannah, who's working with children and young people and their families who have a cancer diagnosis, is that people can see that and can see the breadth of rules that are available when you come into this profession. And I know you mentioned some of the dramas there, but there are real stories, of course, that have happened as well. And perhaps with drama is not giving a balanced picture. Here's one. I'm a social worker who's done many, many care proceedings which result in children's removal from parent.

It's always heartbreaking for all. I believe this is always done in the child's best interest. No one has a crystal ball. You can only go on research and experience. Would you want to be the social worker who left Victoria or Peter or Starr in the family home? Damned if you do or if you don't. 84844 if you'd like to get in touch. Another, I'm a social worker in an NHS integrated care board.

Although NHS through NHS organisations, I've held roles in substance use, patient safety, quality improvement, safeguarding. Our skills and roles are often overlooked despite being vital to the NHS 10-year plan and that comes from Leo in the Isle of White 84844 if you'd like to get in touch. Tell us about your social work role. What area you work in, the positives of it, the challenges.

We do know there is artwork that is going to celebrate you that's going to be hopping up on walls where social work happens on these large blue plaques and I want to thank both of my guests, Sarah Blackmore, from the regulator's social work in England. and Alex Giazimides, who is Giazimides, forgive me, who's a palliative social worker supporting people with advanced serious illness. One more message coming in.

As a teacher, I've so much respect for the hard work that social workers do. As teachers, we also play a different role these days. I feel we could do it a similar campaign. Social workers are stretched so thin, but do their best to help families we work with in school. That one from Gemma. and a spokesperson for the Department of Health and Social Care told us that social workers play a vital role in our society.

We've launched the first ever fair pay agreement for care workers, backed by 500 million pounds, which will boost recruitment and retention. At the same time, in recognition of care as the skilled profession that it is, we've rolled out the first ever universal career structure for social care and better training and qualifications for carers. Thanks very much for your messages. Do keep them coming.

Let us now go to Paris of the 1970s and to a hot summer's day where two young women, Erica and Lor, meet for the very first time. The scene is from Almost Life by the author Kieran Millwood Hargrave. It's a queer love story starting with the electrifying feeling of falling in love for the first time. But it's also about what happens next, the paths not taken, and the cards that life can deal you. Welcome, Kieran to Women's Hour.

Thank you so much. It's lovely to be here. So you paint this evocative picture of the time and the place. It's a hot summer outside the sacri-court on the steps. Why did you want the novel to start there? I always begin the writing of a novel with an image. It's like I'm watching a film in my head. And it felt right.

I wanted to put the reader straight away in these two young women's bodies. So I wanted it to feel hot. I wanted it to feel sticky. It did. Good. I'm glad. Smoky. Smoky.

Exactly. And you've got Erica, who is a naive, young British teenager on her first summer abroad. She is very uncomfortable in her body. She's wearing all polyester. She's wearing clothes that she bought especially for her holiday. She's voluptuous. She's voluptuous. Everything's chafing. And then she sees Law on these steps. And Law just looks completely cool in all ways. Just like nothing phases her. And Erica doesn't know if she wants to be her or wants to be with her. And so I did want to start it with this almost lightning strike of an image, but also this lightning strike of connection that these two women share. How did you get into the time and place of 1970s Paris as a queer woman? So I have always written historical fiction for adults. My first book was actually narrated by Jesse Buckley, The Monasteries. Oh gosh, we've got full circle here. Exactly.

And so I'm used to researching. But the stakes for this in many ways felt higher because whereas those are set in sort of the 1500s, 1600s around sort of untold histories normally around women. This was, of course, an era that, for example, my mother lived through, and she would entirely be able to call me out if I got sort of textures wrong. So I always research from my character. What is my character smelling? What are they tasting?

What does their clothes feel like against their skin? But they're also in a social context of discrimination and prejudice, you know, of going to a club and having to be. to look over your shoulder about what might happen once you step outside. Definitely. And I think that there's a real juxtaposition at this time where queer communities were growing in Paris. There were gay clubs that were openly gay clubs,

but there were also frequent attacks on those gay clubs. The rise of the National Front was incredibly prevalent at this time. So it was a real moment of push and pull where queer people were banding together. They were creating their own communities, but those communities were also under attack. And there was also. you know, such epoch-defining times to come, whether it's the AIDS crisis or others.

And we go through the decades. I suppose it's really what a life is, hence the title, Almost Life. It's a story of longing for paths not taken, for the almost lives that we live. That idea of Sliding Doors moments, explore it a little bit more with me. So I am always drawn to sliding doors narratives.

I mean, obviously there's the eponymous film, but I also watched the beautiful Celine's song film Past Lives. Oh, me too. I cried. I know it's wonderful. I cried, but I also had that beautiful ache. You know, I love stories that give me that, that make me think about my own life, that make me reflect on the moments, the hinge moments, as I like to call them,

where I could have made a different decision and my life could have turned out differently. And I think that is just completely fruitful ground for any novelist. And I also read when I was writing this book, Long Island by Comteuibin. Oh, also love. Also love, exactly. And you know, and you get to see, you get to see her other life and how it might have played out as she stayed at home. So this book is really suffused with books like that, like Tom Lake, where you get to look back with that nostalgia. And I really wanted to.

Anne Patchett, what a writer. And just those classic storytellers. So I understand that you were writing a different book And you threw it About the end of The Raj maybe When you were writing this And then instead you jumped into this love story And wrote the draft in six weeks

Have I got that right? Six weeks, I know My wrists are still recovering But it was a possession But it was a really positive experience as well I wrote my first book for adults The Mercies really quickly as well And to be honest

I had a little bit of a breakdown after that because it was about witch trials. This book, yes, it's got longing and sadness and yearning, but it's also got so much life and joy and the characters were so wonderful to spend time with that honestly it was just a pleasure and sometimes it just flows. Sometimes it feels as natural as breathing and this was one of those books that was just a total joy to turn away from that horror novel I was working on and to turn towards a love story with these two women that over 35 years and really sink into their lives. It was such an honour. But the title I love, almost like. Thank you. That was there from the beginning.

Yeah. And it's, I suppose, that other life that we all could have lived. Yeah, well, these two women, especially encapsulated in the character of Erica, who is bisexual, she has very starkly two paths laid out in the embodification of these two people. that she loves her, the man who becomes her husband. I don't know, I'm not going to say if she stays. No, that's okay. Yes, that's fine. And, of course, Lour, who she is her first love and also the first realization that she is queer.

And so she does have these two very stark paths. And I think what I loved about writing this book is the assumption might be that it's just easier to marry a man and go down that path and lose yourself in the roles that are more traditional like motherhood. But actually, there are also traps and. limitations to that life. You're married to a man. I am.

You have a child with him. I do. But you have been open about your bisexuality. Yes. Yes. And it's still a huge part of my identity. You know, I think it's important for women to be seen for everything they are. So, you know, we...

For everything. Everything. There's so many things. And the complexity is what makes us brilliant beings. And I think so often the labels are so reductive. And they also don't communicate the fullness of each of those roles. So mother can hold so many different connotations for so many different people. For me, it's an entirely positive connotation,

but I understand that it can hold real limitations or harms for other women, especially if they don't have control of their reproductive rights or something like that. So I just think we have to hold all these labels and be comfortable with the dissonance that sometimes comes with them. So that's why I am Opal about my bisexuality. although I have disappeared in many ways into that traditional role of wife and mother very proudly, but wife to a man. But I do claim the label bisexual,

as much as I claim the label author or... And you mentioned Mother there, and this is your first book, it's your 13th, I should say, you're being across genres and poetry and so many young adults, I suppose I should, many people will know your debut fantasy novel, The Girl of Ink and Stars

that was about a decade ago, You won the Waterstones Children Books Prize, the British Book Award, so many genres. But this is your 13th book, Adult Fiction. How was it to write as a mother? And I'm talking about that with constraints on your time as well as the chaos of the heart, quoting Jesse Buckley. It's such a brilliant quote, but I think that what that has given me access to, and it sounds like the way that she talks about it as well,

is given her access to this whole other part of herself. And that is what mothering my child has unlawful. locked in me. It's this new depth of emotion and new level of empathy. I realize how judgmental I was, how taken in by the narratives of you can have it all I was. And actually it's been really wonderful again to be complex and sit with that dissonance and think you can't have it all, but that's not a bad thing. And you do have less time, but means the time that you do have is so much more precious. And I'm just getting to witness this young being growing, up and it is the most incredible honour of my life. So it has been an incredibly exhausting time,

but also in a very fruitful time. And I have to sort of shout out my mother, my husband, my village, my father, who are all very involved with that. And I am lucky to have a village, which many women don't have. So you have a village on Earth. Now, did I get this right that you originally wanted to be the first woman on Mars? That was my, that was my second dream. My first one was to be a cat. My second one was to be the first woman on Mars. And my husband's very encouraging of this dream, even though I'd be away for like 15 years. Well, I don't think you come back if you go to Mars. I mean, that's what I thought was the whole problem with that particular endeavour. Yes, I've left that behind because I do feel a bit queasy on roller coasters now,

unfortunately. But are you interested in that idea of space and the future and boundaries and what human potential can achieve? Absolutely, and I think that that's why being an author speaks so utterly to the same characteristics that made me want to be an astronaut. It's about stretching the bounds of human thinking, human imagination, it's about seeing the wonder and the beauty that's all around us.

And my children's fiction in particular draws on that, but something I really enjoyed exploring in almost life, was that wonder, that capacity for wonder that we have as human beings. I think it really brings you back to, first love and what it's like, I suppose, to be exploring both the world and other people and seeing things for the first time, a really gorgeous read. Kieran Millwood Hargrave, thank you so much for joining us on Woman's Hour this morning.

Thank you for having me. And almost life is out now. Social workers, let's see. My mother worked as a social worker in the 70s and 80s. As part of her mental health role, she had made the decision to section a woman who was having a mental health crisis. a difficult decision to remove someone's liberty even temporarily. Eventually, her client recovered and credited my mother with having saved her life. She sent my mum a Christmas card every year until she died a few years ago, and that went on for over 30 years, so says Carrie 84844.

Another, this don't have a name. I remember my initial reaction when hearing that my elderly father had been allocated a social worker when in hospital, I felt embarrassed. That person proceeded to advocate for my dad, for my mum when deciding his future care plan. A total game changer for us in him. Amazing dedication and skill. I am forever grateful.

So showing some of the other aspects of social work 84844 if you would like to add your voice. Now, onto something that I think will make you smile. New research from Bristol University indicates that pretending not to hear parents or hiding toys are among children's early ploys and they can show these early signs. of deception as early as eight months. By the age of three, they may be telling lies such as a ghost ate all the chocolate. Elena Hoyke is Professor of Developmental Psychology, who led the research and joins me now. Good morning.

Elena, good to have you with us. So you looked at the behaviour of 750 children. So a sizable group, what did you find? What we found was that deceptive behaviours are occurring much earlier than we ever thought. I mean, I'm surprised by this too. So our earliest reports, this is not typical, but our earliest reports were eight months. 25% of kids were predicted to deceit by 10 months. It's really early and half by 17 months.

Right. Those figures are hilarious as well as very interesting. But what are they doing at eight months? Like what is the deceptive behavior we're talking about? It's very nonverbal. It's not language, obviously. These kids are barely talking. It's kind of like doing things in secret, for instance, right?

So for instance, when my son was 15 months, I remember being in a room, living room on the sofa, and suddenly I was like, where did my kid go? And he was in the one place I couldn't see him very, very quietly playing with a remote. And then I found him. I always took the remote away. I don't want him playing with a remote. And it's that kind of a thing. So they're doing things they're not supposed to do in secret.

They're hiding things from others that they don't want them to get. When there may be, yeah, also things like pretending. not to hear. So if parents say, okay, it's time to tidy up or it's bedtime and they just like, you're like, whatever. I didn't hear that. I'm not going to do that. It's those kinds of things. So these are not complicated lies that we might hear, you know, with adults. And I'm sure an eight-month-old, for example, would be very different to a two-year-old. But is this, maybe, should it be applauded? Is this a developmental milestone? So I don't know about applauding, but it's completely normal. So I think no one should be worried if their young child starts deceiving. In fact,

we even found that children's deceptive skills correlated with their, basically the theory of mind, their social cognition. So it showed they have the more types of deception they have, the more they understand other people's minds. And so the more... So the more... Yes. Sorry, go ahead. I was interrupting. Go ahead. Yes. Yes. So I think it's quite normal. I think. it's, you know, it's helpful for them to get what they want, to get out of sticky situations. And it's something we do throughout our lives, sometimes for bad, but sometimes good.

You know, sometimes we say nice things that aren't true to people. So, yeah. And we all love traitors. So parents with children that they see are being deceptive. You notice it. You tell them what you want them to do, I suppose. Is it different for each child that you notice deviously? behavior when they've been deceptive. Is it different? I mean, I think across, I've got three kids. They're three, seven, and ten now. And just across the parent reports, the patterns are somewhat consistent, right?

It starts with this very sneaky behavior. Then kids are starting to, you know, shake their heads no when you ask them something. And I've seen this with all my kids. I mean, I feel like there's always someone sneaking a treat in somewhere like the bathroom or under a table or something like that. Yeah. So should we discourage lying as parents? I guess it depends. I mean, probably.

I mean, we don't want people lying all the time. I think it just kind of depends on what it is. You know, for instance, Christmas, two Christmases ago, my kids conspired to get up in the middle of the night and eat all the sweets out of their stockings. And we just let that go, you know, let them have their moment. But I'd say typically, you know, if it's maybe dangerous or not a very nice behavior that they're covering up,

then it's good to have conversations with them. And I suppose the eighth month old, the conversation would be very different from a three-year-old, for example. Oh, yeah. I'd be like an eight-month-old is probably not a conversation. It's, you know, if they've got something in their hand, they shouldn't. You're probably just taking it away. Whereas a three-year-old, you can talk about it and say, well, you know, this isn't good for you or that wasn't very kind, these kinds of things.

But you were surprised by the findings on the whole. Yes. I mean, I started this project even before I had kids, but I did see pretty. early on in all my kids. Yeah. But overall, yeah, quite surprising how young. So now, if somebody is hiding something in their cot or their crib, you know, they're just like all the other kids that are getting used to lying quite early on.

Thanks so much for joining us, Elena Hoyka, who led that research, really interesting. I do want to let you know tomorrow. If you join me on tomorrow's program, I'll be finding out about a new mammogram that uses an AI tool to calculate a woman's risk of heart disease. and we will also delve into the manosphere. I'll see you then.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, wicked Wundekins and Degenerate Do-Gooders. It's Russell Kane here, host of Evil Genius, the show that takes famous faces from history and knocks them off their high horse by revealing three unfortunate facts about their life. We shine a UV torch on the hidden evidence,

then present our findings to a jury of three comedians who will decide, evil or genius? Join us as we rifle through the drawers of history, then make a mess on the carpet. Listen to evil genius first on BBC Sounds. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids.

I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been, I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story.

From CBC's personally, this is Creation Myth, available now wherever you get your podcasts.