Woman's Hour - 16/09/2025

Episode Date: September 16, 2025

As Donald Trump arrives in the UK for his second state visit, we examine how women feel about the US President now and how the Epstein scandal might feature in discussions as Keir Starmer faces more pressure about how he handled Lord Mandelson’s resignation. Nuala McGovern speaks to Katy Balls from The Times, women’s campaigner Alix Valentine and Mischa Smith, the news and features editor for Marie Claire UK. How well does the law serve women? That’s a question Nuala puts to Brenda Marjorie Hale, The Rt. Hon. The Baroness Hale of Richmond, DBE a former judge who served as the first female President of the Supreme Court. She was the first woman and the youngest person to be appointed to the Law Commission, where she led the work on what became the 1989 Children Act. In 2019 she announced the Supreme Court’s judgement that the prorogation of Parliament was ‘unlawful, void and of no effect’. She discusses her new book, With the Law on Our Side – How the law works for everyone and how we can make it work better. Hairdresser Emiola Lanlehin is the co-founder of Crowned with Care which is an event providing free hairstyling and barbering services for looked after black and mixed heritage children and teenagers. Her mother nominated her in the volunteer category of the Make a Difference Award – saying it was ‘for her courage, faith, commitment and determination to find a way of serving an underserved community’. Many children in care, especially those with Afro-textured hair, struggle to access proper grooming and cultural hair care. Emiola explains how free hair care can help black and mixed heritage children feel valued and celebrated. What are the issues that shape the lives of teenagers today? What are their concerns, pressures and influences? For their ‘Teen25 Summit’, BBC5 Live in collaboration with BBC Bitesize have conducted a survey of over 2,000 13–18-year-olds, and the data reveals some worrying statistics for the mental health of teenage girls today. Reporter Kristian Johnson talks us through the figures. And Professor Sonia Livingstone from the LSE analyses and gives advice to parents.

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Your idea of banking that's personal happens here. RBC, ideas happen here. BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Neula McGovern, and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. Hello, good morning and welcome to the program. Well, in just a few minutes, Baroness Hale, former and the first female Supreme Court president, will be with me in studio. Lady Hale has a new book with the law on our side. But is it on the side of women?

We're going to discuss that. Also, the most read article on the BBC website right now is about teens who turn their rooms into tech-free zones and also how that went. Is too much time on screens something you have struggled with when it comes to your teenager? What did you do that worked if you found something to get them off said devices?

How did you wean your teen? guess is what I'm asking. The children's commissioner, Rachel Lassouza, you might have heard her comments. She said, lead by example, but that is sometimes easier said than done. You can text the program. The number is 84844 on social media or at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email us through our website. For a WhatsApp message or a voice note, the number is 0-3700-100-444. And yes, I do realize you'll have to use a screen to do it. also as part of the BBC's Teen Summit we're going to hear about some of the findings from a new study

including on teenage girls' mental health and anxiety so that conversation also coming up and this hour will meet Emiola Lanleyan who provides free hair care for looked after black and mixed heritage children we're going to hear why her work made her a winner in the BBC's Make a Difference Award

but let me begin as you've been hearing in the news bulletin Donald Trump arrives in the UK this evening for his second state visit to the UK. He'll be meeting the Prime Minister at a time when Sir Kirs Stammer is engulfed in the storm about Labour Pier and former US Ambassador Peter Mandelson, who was sacked because of his links with the convicted sex offender Geoffrey Epstein. Now, it's well documented that President Trump knew Epstein, something that was highlighted this morning by a campaign group.

They call themselves Everyone hates Elon. And they've unveiled this massive photograph. Think size of a tennis court. of Mr Trump and Mr. Epstein on the front lawn of Windsor Castle. We're going to have a chat about this and also about protest movements and where they are when it comes to women.

Katie Bowles is the Washington editor and columnist at the Times and the Sunday Times. Good to have you with us, Katie. So talk us through how delicate this particular visit is for Sir Kier Stammer. Well, I think any visit involving Donald Trump tends to be delicate for any leader. We've seen someone who now works in D.C., but it's in London this week for the state visit, how in the Oval Office various leaders, Zelensky, the leader of South

Africa, have come in and tried to get on with the US president, and it's become a quite difficult clash. And therefore, what Kirstama has going in his favour is he's managed to develop quite a warm relationship with Donald Trump so far. But we just looked to the last state visit with Theresa May and how the US president ended up being quite critical of her in an interview. We look at some of the potential flashpoints here and we look at the difficult position Kier Starrma is in following the sacking of Peter Manderson, questions about Epstein and so forth.

And I think that even if both men are going in with very good intentions, just a few press huddles or press conferences and you can start to see how it could go off message quite quickly. Do we have any idea of how, Mr. Trump may approach, if indeed he does at all, the sacking of Peter Mendelsohn? Well, of course, in America, the really big story in the past week has been the death of Charlie Kirk, he was a member of the Make America Great Again movement. And that's meant there's been limited response so far in the sense of how the White House feels about the departure of Peter

Mandelson. But it seems very likely it's going to come up. And we also know that President Trump quite liked Peter Manderson. There was initially skepticism towards having this new labour figure, but lots of members in administration warmed to Peter Manderson. They thought he was someone who spoke their language. And I think there is a little sense of bewilderment as to why you would change ambassadors so quickly before the visit, particularly because when you get to the Epstein problem, I had lots of figures in the UK saying, oh, Peter Madison will have to go and that was certain in the sense in the UK. But in America, the Epstein files and the disdain files and the disclosures. There are bigger characters involved, notably one who lives in the White House,

which means it's quite delicate if Kirstarm is going to say, you know, Peter Madison fell below the standards. What does it say about how he feels about the US president and his relationship with the disgraced, deceased, financiate? How would you describe, however, the level of interest and division in Mr. Epstein and his relationship with Mr. Trump? at this moment in the United States? I think it's been one of the most uncomfortable stories for Donald Trump to date since he's returned to the White House. And that's because initially it's also a story that rattles his base.

So there has been pushed back from normally those who are quite supportive to Donald Trump saying, you know, figures like Tucker Carlson, Steve Bannon, asking for more transparency on the files. Then you also have allegations about Donald Trump's relationship. with Jeffrey Epstein. And he tried to draw a line on it a few months ago saying, you know, everyone's bored of talking about Jeffrey Epstein. It turns out they're not. And the conversation keeps going, including in the Republican Party, we expect more evidence to come out. So I think it is a political headache for the US president. But it really depends, you know, on the point in time

and what comes out. But it's something where he doesn't want to have to talk about it, but the White House has had to talk about more than they wanted to. And that could start to play it on this visit too. Yeah, because timing, I suppose, in politics can be so important. Parliament is holding a three-hour emergency debate to scrutinise the government on the hiring of Lord Peter Mendelssohn. Do you think it is possible for the Prime Minister to draw a line between a state visit and politics? I think it's probably impossible. I think that's what both Donald Trump and Kirstehm would like to do. And I think the White House and Donald Trump supporters want this visit to be, you know, this historic moment. We know that the US president loves the royal

family. He developed a love partly through his mother's love of the royal family. She would, you know, have them on the television growing up when she was, and so forth. So they want this to be about the fact he is the only president to have an unprecedented second state visit, a true honor bestowed on him. That's how they talk about it. But unfortunately, I think for both sides, from their perspectives, you're going to start to see that Epstein drama bleed into it to a degree. And that is something that I think for some around Donald Trump will be an irritation that politics is mixing into this. Stay with us, Kate, because, Katie, excuse me, because I want to bring in Alex Valentine, who's from the campaign group Intersections Ups uprising. The group used to

be called UK's Women's March. Good to have you with us, Alex. You know, I was at the covering the Women's March in Washington, D.C. after President Trump was elected to his first term. I was back after the second term and the reduction in numbers I mean it's not even comparable to be quite honest when you look at that

and I'm wondering what is happening in the UK there were big marches previously against Mr Trump but is there still any of that energy within the movement?

Absolutely I mean our entire movement was founded around Donald Trump being reelected back in November. And I think that with regards to collaborative actions amongst activists, we need to take into consideration that Donald Trump is not only a danger to women and girls,

but he is also homophobic, he is racist, he's xenophobic. And I have to stop you there. I have to stop you there for one moment, Alex, because of course there would be a lot of people that would disagree with that characterization of Donald Trump and, you know, you know, he has a huge support in the United States over 50% at this point. But continue, please.

Yeah, so there would be a lot of people who would disagree with it. But as we saw on Saturday, there are a lot of people who disagree that right-wing politics are right-wing politics. So we came up with the idea of a collaborative action between us, groups who fight against racism, groups who fight against migration, groups that fight against climate change, it's a climate change denier. And we just thought that although our paths may go down different roads, at the moment we have a common enemy, and that is Donald Trump.

And we need to show that the United Kingdom isn't interested in. in American politics, we're not interested in going the same way as Trump. As I said, we were founded on the weekend that Trump was re-elected. And he, as a result of that, obviously, we have sort of held him as our reason to keep going, because he is dripping away women's rights in America. And the thing is, is that America is a first world country. and if it can happen there, it can happen here. And I hear, of course, your passion about it

and that you're going ahead. I mean, do you feel, I'd just be curious for your thoughts on, you've seen that photo probably that's taking a part of the long walk outside Windsor. Does something like that really make a difference? Or is it just a gimmick? So, I mean, protest when it's stripped back to the bare bones, started in, you know, the very early days.

And it has always been a stance of art and compromise. If you ask me, you look at chants are very much based around South African music that was used during the apartheid, placards made with art, obviously. And it's all about compromising. You put placards on cardboard. And to me, that is an expression of passion. that is an expression of, you know, what we're doing and how we're doing it. With regards to the giant picture, I just see that as another expression of art.

And, like I say, protest was born from art. So, you know, yeah, let me ask you. I don't see it either way. You don't see it either way. Alex, just before I let you go, where are the marches taking place? So our marches will be taking place They will be static protests They're taking place

Outside the four parliamentary houses of the UK So that will be Westminster, London The Senate in Cardiff, Stormon in Northern Ireland And Hollowrood in Scotland Thank you very much That is Alex Valentine From the campaign group Intersections Up Rising I want to bring in Misha Smith as well

Who is the News and Features editor for Mary Claire UK. She wrote an article earlier this year about Donald Trump and also asking that question which I was posing at the beginning of why more women are not taking a stance against him

being back in power as opposed to those earlier numbers that we saw, for example, with his first term. Misha, what's your take? Why do you think that is? Good morning. I think there's a lot of contributing factors

and as I mentioned in the article it's undeniable that there was a sense of activism burnout. And it's very understandable. You know, it's easy to see huge numbers of women worldwide turned out back in 2017. And, you know, fast forward what doesn't feel like a, you know, too long later. And it feels, you know, there's an overwhelming sense from the women that I spoke to on the March in January of this year. And women that I've subsequently spoken to that, well, here we are again.

and what was that all for? And I think that is completely understandable. I don't think that, you know, that's not gone away and certainly that energy or, you know, the feelings towards it. Perhaps energy isn't the right word. I think it's been channeled in different ways. How?

And I think that there's a quieter form of this. I think we've seen this in the kind of, you know, the higher echelons, you know, Michelle Obama, not going to the inauguration and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez as well. and there wasn't the kind of big proclamations but certainly the feelings are still there and I think that also maybe there's an element of it's gone kind of slightly underground a little bit as well I think it's a really heightened time to be taken to the streets I think there is almost a level of fear that I don't think was there in 2017 as well I think the way that protests are handled in the UK

is definitely different from 2017, and I think that is a contributing factor. And, you know, that our protests, obviously Alex mentioned that stand up to racism have a counter-protest tomorrow as well. So certainly that hasn't gone away, but I think we're seeing kind of microgroups organizing and having to change tact,

which I think is actually a really positive thing, because there's a sense, again, from the kind of people that I spoke to at the beginning of the year, and I've kind of continually spoken to of it didn't get the outcome that people wanted the first time round. I mean, you know, he's back in office.

There is a sense of not only history we're playing itself, but a sense that actually, you know, he and the kind of movement have been emboldened and so actually the pendulum kind of swung quite aggressively in the other direction. So how do you counter it now? You can't just keep doing the same things. It's interesting. A couple of things.

I'm thinking about as I'm speaking to Amisha, which is women, of course, are not a monolith, but it is interesting, as Alex mentioned, this umbrella group and these sometimes competing priorities that are trying to be under this umbrella, which can fracture any movement because, obviously, they haven't all got the one thing in common that they're fighting against.

I wonder, does that play into it at all? I think that played into it and I think that was, I mean, that was an issue kind of following the women's marches back in 2017 as well. I think that we are, yeah, for sure. There's, you know, there's fracturing and I think that that can have a knock on effect. I think one of the overarching things in terms of the smaller numbers that I found at least in kind of my research and reporting was that sense of activism burnout more than anything else. And also there was a kind of like fear element as well. You know, we've seen a real rise in strong band politics. And I think that has emboldened a lot of people. And in the same way that, you know, like, okay, women, not just women,

but, you know, people that oppose those views have absorbed that. But also so have people that are kind of pro-Trump. And I think they felt really emboldened. And I think it's made it really, it's made the landscape really heightened as well. So I think you're seeing people are organising in different ways and maybe on a kind of more micro level and a more local level. We've not really seen how that's going to play out yet. But I think we've absolutely still got people that are protesting

and taking to the streets, even if not in the very literal sense of the streets. Well, thank you very much for speaking to us. That was Misha Smith before we had Alex. Valentine. And also I want to thank Katie Bowles, Washington editor and columnist at the Times and the Sunday Times. And of course, you'll be seeing lots more on this across the BBC in the coming days. Thanks for your messages that are coming in on phones. We're going to talk about this a little later. My daughter uses the excuse that her homework and other school information is online so she needs her phone. Maybe schools should return to more traditional methods of communication. 84844 if you would like to get. get in touch. Now next to the woman who served as the first female president of the Supreme Court. Brenda Marjorie Hale, the right Honourable Baroness Hale of Richmond, DBE, is a former judge. She's also a current member of the House of Lords. Lady Hale was born in Yorkshire, read law at the University of Cambridge, where she graduated top of her class.

She spent almost 20 years in academia and also practiced as a barrister. she was the first woman and the youngest person to be appointed to the Law Commission. She led the work on what's became the 1989 Children's Act. In 2004, she became the UK's first woman law lord. And in 2019, she announced the Supreme Court's judgment. You'll remember this, that the prerogation of Parliament was unlawful, void and of no effect. Well, she now has a new book out. It's called with the law on our side, how the law works for everyone and how we can make it work better.

And she joins me in the studio now. You're so welcome. Thank you very much for having me. That is an impressive list of firsts that I've mentioned there. But let me move to your latest accomplishment. What is it you wanted to get across with this book? It's a book which is aimed basically at non-lawyers to try and get across the message that the law has impacts on everybody's lives, everyday lives, and it can do things for people as well as two people.

I loved reading through it with the various examples you have and also that you give the reader the chance to be the judge. You give ABC, for example, various outcomes which you could judge to be the right path forward. Why did you decide on that concept? Well, that's the second part of the book which is talking about issues of rights, particular people's rights.

And I wanted to get across that some of these issues are difficult and involve value judgments. So to give the reader the opportunity to answer what they would do in the facts of the case. I mean, take the example of the dispute on a bus between a wheelchair user and a woman with a sleeping baby in a buggy. Who takes precedence and what does the bus driver have to do to secure that precedence? Now, that's the sort of thing that anybody can empathise with

and have thoughts about about how it should be done. So it's that sort of example. Really interesting. And I liked, sometimes I got it right, shall we say, with what the judges decided, and sometimes I did not. But, you know, this premise that the law is on our side,

but many women and girls would disagree. We all have rights, but sometimes it's just not that easy to get justice. And for many women, their first interaction with the law is really through the police. we found in conversations that we've had many times on this program is that many women don't trust the police. We had the Sarah Everard,

kidnapped, rape and murder by a metropolitan police officer that led to a highly critical review by Baroness Casey, concluding that the Met is failing women and children. Do you, Lady Hale, trust the police? I think I would trust them to treat me properly. Let's expand on that. Well, I might not trust every police officer to treat every woman and girl, particularly those from the more vulnerable sections of society, as they should be treated. So I wouldn't universally trust the police, but I wouldn't universally condemn them either.

I understand. And you understand, of course, as you detail in your book, that that is often the first encounter that women and girls. will have with the law and the justice system. Do you think that there is a way to make it more watertight for women to have the law on their side, even when they enter into that scenario? Well, I think that the law is usually on the right side. I mean, we may disagree about some of the answers to some of the examples that I gave. But I think generally speaking, these days, the actual rules are more or less satisfactory.

It's the operation of those rules by the people who are there to put them into practice, which sometimes fall short. And that's not only the police, it's obviously prosecutors, and sometimes it's courts, sometimes it's lawyers. If we think about the family courts, for example, most of the time they probably. do get it right, but there will be some very difficult cases which they don't get right. And we need to look at the reasons for that, and that's where research comes in and proper objective studies, as to when, where, why, they're not getting it right and how we could try and make it better. When you were appointed a law lord, you created a coat of arms for your new title, and forgive my

Latin here, bearing the motto, I might hand this over to you. Omnia feminae aquezizemi. Omnia feminae iquismi. Okay, aquizemi, there we go. Meaning women are equal to everything. That's one translation, and it's the translation that I meant. And why? Why?

Yes. Because I think that women are equal to everything. They can do all sorts of things. And they certainly are equal to men. in dignity and rights, and that should be recognised. So I wanted to trumpet that. And of course, creating, as I mentioned, this coat of arms. Do you feel that in the time of your career, for example,

that there has been a shift or a deep shift, let's say from 1984 you co-authored women and the law that was a comprehensive survey of women's rights at work and in the family and in the state. Do you feel the situation has changed since you started out when it comes to deep-rooted problems of inequality? Oh, yes. It's definitely improved. I'm not saying that it's perfect, as I have just said.

I think the operation of the law is often imperfect. But I think on the whole, the actual rules have been greatly improved. And also the participation of women in the justice system has hugely improved. After all, the first woman judge was only appointed just before I went to university and now women are over 40%

of the judiciary as a whole. Do you think they might be in the majority in sometime in the near future? Well, I think it would be no bad thing if they were. I mean, I think 60-40, either way, you know, is very satisfactory because nobody feels incredibly outnumbered.

And we've got, well, it's more than, it's sort of 55, 45 at the moment. But in the tribunals, in fact, women are in a majority, just over 50%. And that's no bad thing. Let me turn back to some specifics which we've spoken about on this programme as well. For instance, there was a campaign for women's therapy notes following sexual assault, for example, or violence against women. for their therapy notes to be kept private after they report a rape and victims are still waiting for a promised new code of practice. What takes so long to have that down in the law books and have it as a right?

That's not really a question I can answer because that is part of the criminal justice system and part of my object in the book was to say that we all tend to think of the law and the justice system as being the criminal justice system when in fact there are four separate systems of law and the other three are just as important and in fact for most people more important than the criminal justice system the responsibility

for a code of practice in relation to therapy notes is obviously lies with the Lady Chief Justice and other people and it's quite a difficult question because there will be circumstances in which they ought to be disclosed and there will be other circumstances in

which they ought not. And how to work out what those circumstances are as a matter of practice is one of those really difficult questions which I'm really not qualified to judge. But obviously can still shine a light by what you tell us in that instance. Because I'm thinking as you're speaking as well that the laws are there, that the law is on our side, as you would say, but it is the operational or the enforcement of them that at times is the obstacle or the barrier to receiving justice? Is there a way to attack or refine that enforcement or operation? Well, yes, that clearly is. I think bringing problems out into the open. Okay. We can do that here. As you do, yes. But doing so in a balanced and objective way.

I hope we do that too. Well, I listen to your program quite a lot and I think I could agree with you on that most of the time. and because actually recognising problems, we really didn't think very much about the fact that there were hardly any women judges until we started counting them. Counting things is really important and that's true of a lot of legal phenomena, thinking about them,

trying to work out what can be done to improve matters and then putting that into practice, having the right people at the top, all sorts of things like that. There's no silver bullet to make life perfect, is there? You've got to think things through and you've got to educate people. And there are lots of issues on which education is incredibly important. And actually part of the object of the book was to get over to non-lawyers,

to people who have no intention of becoming lawyers, who aren't lawyers, how important the law is. And is that something, because I was thinking about this as I was reading, it obviously with no legal background. Although I did work in a law office for a short while in my early years, which I quite enjoyed. I was going to say, what put you off? The radio just pulled me in, I'm afraid. So I was doing it on the side while I was interning in radio stations. However, it isn't something that we're taught from a young age when we are taught other things. For example, you know, whether it's about accountancy or some financial literacy or digital literacy

or various languages, but not really the law. No. Or indeed the Constitution, which I think is the fundamental thing. I mean, I believe that in primary schools, children should know what the fundamentals of the Constitution are. You know, that we have a parliament and what Parliament does, that we have a government and what government does, and that we have a legal system and what the legal system does and the relations between them. It's quite simple, but it would be really helpful if people actually knew. that, for example, the government wasn't Parliament. The government doesn't

pass laws. And what the judges do in relation to the government and don't do in relation to Parliament. All of these things are very simple and I would love it if people knew these things. And so to this book. There's for some of the non-lawyers, but I do

also want to turn to women that are working within the law. There was the report, I'm sure you saw out last week by Baroness Harriet Harmon, commissioned by the Council and she talked of junior female barristers going to the regulator, the Bar Standards Board, about sexual harassment and some who ultimately came to regret that they had come forward. What was your reaction when you heard about that? Well, deep, deep sadness. There certainly

was when I started out at the bar a lot of casual sexism, not necessarily sexual harassment, but casual sexism. I think I didn't suffer that, possibly because when I went to the bar, I was already married. Interesting. It's my view. But there were things like when women were elected to the circuit, which you have to be to practice on one of the circuits, they were asked to get on the table. I'm shocked by that. Yes. Well, it was shocking. And they were excluded from the bar mess, which was the sort of dining club for barristers, weren't they, around the place? We were actually allowed in in 1969,

but there was a big fight about it because the men didn't really want us there, didn't want us interfering with their fun and games or whatever it is they got up to. So there were casual, taken for granted, things like that. So I was deeply saddened to see that some of those attitudes are persisting in some people and the problem

particularly is that because the bar is well the self-employed bar they're all sole practitioners they join together in chambers to share expenses and clerks and so on but they are all cottage industries

a solo cottage industry and if you're a pupil barrister or even a very junior barrister an awful lot depends upon staying on good terms with the seniors in chambers and also with the clerks. And therefore, they're much more vulnerable.

There isn't a normal employment structure which would give you or should give you in all good employment a route to complain and a grievance procedure and the like. So do you think the bar could be heading for its own Me Too? movement, for example. Well, I mean, that report sounds a little bit like that, doesn't it? Yes, although it needs, I suppose with me too, it needs a lot of people to speak out openly, which of course is so difficult.

It is very difficult to do. And most of the time, you're getting on with the job anyway. And also, there are some chambers who do have, you know, grievance procedures and the like. And they have all sorts of diversity and equal opportunities practices, which are a very good thing. But it's just not universal. And it should be? Well, I think that would be a really good idea. Yes, to enforce some universal code of...

Well, there are. I mean, obviously there are codes of ethics. There are codes of professional ethics and other sorts of ethics as well. There are such codes. It's like everything. But the enforcement? It's the access to it. Putting things into practice.

which is sometimes lacking. But when you look at the justice system now, this vast and wonderful career that you have had, I mean, Manny would say that the legal system is vast and ancient, but you feel it's fit for purpose? Well, it's capable of being fit for purpose. Interesting, yeah. Capable of being fit for purpose.

But, I mean, you've mentioned some problems, but the most serious problem with the justice system is that it's been starved. It's been starved of the resources that it needs in order to do the job that people need it to do. I mean, as you know, I was talking to a young barrister yesterday. She has got cases in the Crown Court listed for 2029. The delays are horrendous. And people drop out, as we know, when it comes to cases specifically. issues, of course. Some of the delay leads to people thinking, well, I'm going to give up. I've moved on in my life and in any case, you know, it's difficult enough being a witness in these cases.

And the family courts similarly have very long delays. In fact, it's all over the system. There just aren't the resources to provide the service that the justice system ought to provide and that people need it to provide. So we need to get public opinion on the, our side. So that's I think also because we in the headlines often see health, education appropriately so as well but perhaps less

at times unless there's a headline over prisons being prisoners being released earlier or something that the justice system gets that attention. That's right. That's right. And we need people to realise that's why I say it's for people as well as against people

and we need people to realise how important it is which is why the first part of the book is about my visits to grassroots courts on random days. It wasn't a special day and just see the everyday things that they do. And on my observation, do them pretty well. I'm just thinking of the people who are like, isn't that Lady Hale at the back there? Well, I did let them know. Obviously, I asked the lead judge, you know, because that would have been tricky in some places.

Not in others where they're used to people in the public gallery. But when I went to the Benefits Tribunal or the Employment Tribunal, that might have been a bit of putting. Well, we're very delighted you came in to join us today. And that is Baroness Hale of Richmond. Her new book is with the law on our side, how the law works for everyone and how we can make it better. Very thought-provoking on whatever part of the law or justice system

that you may or may not encounter. you so much. Thank you so much for having me. Now, I want to go back to screen time for a moment. Let me see. I think there are different types of screen time, says this listener. Playing computer games are often collaborative, problem solving and create community. Also, I don't think screen time in the evening has a significant impact on sleep. It can be really good for your wellbeing. Mental health and can help you get into a flow state. We play computer games together as a family and although I'm useless at them, it's good to join in and the rest of the family take pity on me. That

Laura getting in touch, 8444 if you want to chime in. Now, we have the hairdresser, Emiola Lanleon, with us next. She's co-founder of Crowned with Care. It provides free hair care for looked after black and mixed heritage children. She won the volunteer category of the Make a Difference Award. This is run by BBC Local Radio. She was nominated by her mother Karen for her courage, faith, commitment and determination to find a way of serving an underserved community.

Many children in care, especially those with Afro-textured hair, can struggle to access proper hair care. So let me bring in Emiola. Good to have you with us. Hi, thank you for having me. Congratulations, first off. How does that feel?

Definitely still doesn't feel real, but yeah, it was really exciting. Did you know your mum was putting you in for it? I literally had no idea. I found out when they called me to say that I was a finalist, like when the BBC called me, And they were like, oh, yeah, you know, you've been nominated in X, Y, Z.

And then I called my mom and was like, oh, my gosh, I've been nominated. She was like, yeah, I know. That's so great. She must be thrilled. So tell us a little bit about what you do. I mean, I mentioned the headline there that you provide free hair care for looked after black and mixed heritage children. But what is it you do and why do you do it? So from before I started Crown with Care, I was already doing Afro hair classes for foster carers and parents.

A lot of the time, the parents, you know, have different hair texture to their child. So it was already something that I was aware of and something that I did. So I teach like basic care techniques, basically. And then Crown with Care kind of came about because I had a lot of clients who were looked after children just through referrals and stuff

because people knew what I was doing. And I realised that this is a real need and there's something that I could do about this. So then it kind of all, I don't even know how it became an event, but it all kind of tied together. And I was like, okay, we're doing this. event. How would you describe crowned with care? So crowned with care is basically, at the moment

it's just events, but it's going to be bigger than this. But it's basically where we do free hair styling, we offer free hair products and also hair education to both the looked after children, specifically black and mixed heritage, because that's also my expertise. And we also offer education to the carers as well. So for example, what is it that the carers or foster parents may not know? So a lot of the time, black and mixed children are in transracial placement. So that means that they're with a carer who's a different race to them. A lot of the time they don't understand our hair practices. Every type of culture has different hair practices, right? So, you know, they might not necessarily understand, but also a lot of the time, due to the age or other things, other factors

with the young person, they also don't understand how to take care of their hair. So they left their family too young to have those practices. So they don't know, right? So then it becomes a thing where the carer doesn't quite understand. They're doing what they would do with their hair, but then, you know, it's damaging the young person's hair. They're finding that, you know, their hair's breaking a lot. Afro-textured hair requires way different care. You know, we don't, for example, need to wash our hair every day.

We wash our hair, like, weekly every two weeks, and that's fine for us because we have naturally drier hair texture, just due to the shape of our hair strands, right? So, but people don't know that. And they might think, well, I'm doing this. I'm trying my best to keep this child clean and happy and healthy. But then sometimes that can actually counteract what you know what they actually need to be doing um so tell me then about the children that you work

with what's it like i mean they come in they kind of get a little bit of pampering yeah i mean they absolutely love it it's like imagine you as like a 10 year old going into a salon you've got everybody all like don't it over you and everything they absolutely love it and um it's so impactful to a lot of them and you know what at first i thought you know it'd mainly be the little the little ones that would really really enjoy it but actually it's the teenagers who were like i want to fit in with my peers. That's the stage where you really need to fit in, right? You need to have the hairstyles that everybody else has or whatever. And I found that that was really, really impactful for them in particular, because it really felt like a time when, oh, I'm

actually being listened to, you know, I've told my carer I need this and now I'm getting it. And it's also, you know, so much part of their identity. Exactly. Exactly. I think that's the case for everyone, right? Like, we don't think about it enough until you realise that when you don't have it, it's a huge problem. Like, we all think about our hair. That's probably the, you know, before you leave the house, you're like, does my hair look okay? Like, what's going on? Maybe it's more so for me as a hairdresser. I think everybody, I think everybody will be, yeah, going, yeah, we get that. Everyone can relate to that. So it's like when you're in a position where, you know, the first thing people see when

they look at you and you feel, you feel not very confident about it, you feel embarrassed by it. That can hugely affect yourself confidence in your mental health. Where did all this come from, Emilio. Where does all this compassion and drive and ambition come from? I think my family, I come from a family of everybody's like, what can we do? How do we do this? Like, just 10 out of 10 all the time. And definitely I'm very inspired by my mum as well. She works really, really hard. And yeah, but I think I've also always naturally been somebody who really lost to do things. Like, even when I was planning Crown with Care, I was like, this reminds me of when I, like, was head of prom committee. And I was like, guys, we've got to get this done.

I did the most extra prom ever. So I've always really enjoyed doing things like this. And, you know, definitely growing up around children who were in the care system, you know, my grandparents were foster carers. So I, you know, it's something that's always been very ingrained in our family. Like, not even just my grandparents, my aunties and uncles, there's so many foster carers in my family. But that's not that common.

Black foster carers are not very common. So we knew in particular that there was something that needed to be done. You also, when the kids come into you, they leave with their own little box? Yes, yeah. I mean, it's getting bigger and bigger. It's like that first was like, yeah, and let's put a few things in there. And then like the second event, we had like 10 different companies donate all this stuff. So they literally were like filled to the brim.

So heavy. But like they get everything they need. So they get their shampoo conditioner, other products that they need. We also included things like body butters and, you know, practical hair tools they'll need. bags, bonnets, like basically everything they will need to maintain their style. But also the point of that was to give the carers an idea of what things they can buy as well, because they might not necessarily know what products to get. Yeah, because I suppose there isn't perhaps the training for foster carers and social workers

for something like what you're doing. No, no, there isn't. And that's something that I think definitely needs to be done and worked on. And I am working on it because I think it's such a huge issue. and somebody needs to kind of pull something together to make sure that these carers do get that because I don't think it's the fault of the carers. They are already working very, very hard

and opening their homes to these young people. So it's not their fault that they don't understand, but there's something that can be done to help them to understand what to do. And just, I also saw there was a BBC investigation related in a way, Amiola, that I found only a third of colleges that are offering hairdressing courses

are teaching students how to care for afro hair. Does that surprise you? No, it doesn't actually at all. And it's very interesting because it creates something in the, particularly in the black community, where a lot of stylists aren't actually qualified hairdressers because there's not that many hairdressing courses that care for our particular hair.

So, you know, we create our own courses and stuff, but within the overarching, you know, recognised accreditations, I guess, there's really not much in there. not surprised by that because I know that myself is somebody who is doing hairdressing at the moment. Like it's, and it's disappointing because the black hair industry is absolutely huge. And, you know, it's, it's not different to the, you know, the European hair industry or anything like that. So it's like, why is it a thing where there's no education for that in the mainstream? It doesn't really make much sense. But, you know, that's how things are. And I think it's just

important that, you know, there are people making strides in this country to, you know, incorporate that more and more. And as you're seeing, it is in some courses, but I think it just needs to be a bit more widespread. Thank you so much for joining us. Congratulations again, Mieola, Lanleyan, the co-founder of Crown with Care, and as I said, won the volunteer category of the Make a Difference Award, which she is most definitely doing. Messages coming in. Here's one from Catherine in Sheffield. I'm a primary school teacher, and my husband works in children's mental health. We have a 13-year-old. At work, we've seen. screen time harm sleep relationships

and cause serious mental health issues at home our son is currently on a screen ban. I'm extremely grateful that there are two of us to support each other in implementing it as our son was really angry and upset about it at first. However he has spent the last two weeks baking, reading, drawing, playing with toys and playing outside

he's more focused on his homework and he's sleeping better. Parenting is hard but children really do appreciate from rules and boundaries and limiting screen time is vital in raising them to be well-rounded individuals. I have another few messages that are coming in as well on that

because we want to talk about what it's like to be 15 in 2025. Our colleagues at BBC 5 Live in collaboration with BBC Bitesize have been finding out. They have their annual team team summit today and they've also released the results of a survey in connection with that

they've conducted with over 2013 to 18 year olds. lots of findings. I mean, one that came out is that nearly a third of girls have sought professional help for their mental health. I want to bring in the BBC Education reporter Christian Johnson on that

who's been working on the story. Welcome. So tell me a little bit more about that finding and others with the study. Yes, so we've quizzed, as you say, 2,000 teenagers from across the UK and there is a split between girls and boys.

It must be said for some of the answers, it seems pretty, pretty much the same across the board, but there are answers where girls are answering much more weighted one way than the other. So the number of girls seeking professional help for mental health, that's nearly a third, 32% compared to boys, it's 22% of boys. So it's clearly an issue affecting young boys as well, and teenage boys as well, but more so girls. And those sort of statistics are even more stark. when you look at the anxiety that some girls feel. 74% of girls that were quizzed said they feel anxious at least some of the time.

64% of boys. So again, girls are feeling more anxious. And a lot of that anxiety is around feeling pressure to look or act a certain way. So 14% of girls say they feel anxious about feeling pressure to look or act a certain way. Whereas for boys, it was only 9%. Interesting. I know as well that Naga Munchetti on 5 Live has been speaking to teenage girls about their mental health Christian. What do they have to say?

Well, they were saying about their smartphones and how that that is a massive part of it. You know, we're all on our smartphones all the time, but possibly none more so than teenagers. So more than a third, 38% said they spend five or more hours a day on their phones. And one in 20 spends eight hours or more on their phones. phones a day, which is such a staggering amount of time. But it must be said, this isn't just exclusively about teenager. When you think about us as adults, I know I spend a lot of time on my phone and perhaps more than I should as well. But when the anxiety element comes in, you're talking about that feeling pressure to look or act a certain way, those sort of things are heightened when

you're a teenager. Well, let's listen to a little of what the girls had to say about their mental health and smartphone use. Young people aren't heard in terms of mental health. They don't know where to go with it. And they feel like if they do go somewhere, they won't be treated as equal and they won't be treated like adults. Like you're too young to have depression. You're too young to like feel anxious.

It's just, it's a bit of a stigma. I feel like if we do go to somebody, then they won't take it seriously. And I've been told a lot that like it's my fault. A lot of things are happening. And it's just like, I don't know how. how you're finding a way to blame bad man to help on me and myself. I feel like for us as well with social media, because we were so dependent on it throughout COVID

for education and keeping communication, we've become a very sort of smartphone generation where we've been keeping in touch as much as we did in COVID via social media, whereas in reality now that COVID is over, we should be going outside more. You can ask my mum, you can ask my parents. I'm never away from my phone. And I would like to not be so attached.

to it, but obviously me being younger and me being born into a generation of phones and AI and all of that tech, I think I was basically born with a phone in my hand. So it's really difficult for me to step away and know my limit because I've never had a limit, never had restrictions. Born with a phone in my hand, Christian, that kind of brings up an image, doesn't it? But there was also with the study that not that many parents are putting restrictions on, on phone news. Yeah, it's quite a quote that, isn't it?

And I think it's something that Dame Rachel D'Souza, the Children's Commissioner, has said as well to us here at the BBC this week. She says she wants parents to be confident, restricting children's time on their phones and lead by example. So in the survey, we asked the teenagers about what their parents do, what they say to them about using their phone.

So a quarter, 25% of teenagers said their parents set clear limits and rules. about how much time they're spending on tech and gaming and social media. 47% said their parents sometimes set limits, but this is quite key. 27% of the teenagers surveyed said their parents set no limits whatsoever on the time they spend on their tech, gaming, social media. And that's where the Children's Commissioner has come in and said that for the teenagers of today,

it's the parents and carers who really need to lead by example and take an active role in talking to teenagers, and encouraging teenagers and modelling to teenagers how to use a smartphone wisely, knowing when to put it down. It is hard, though, isn't it? Let me bring in Professor Sonia Livingston, a professor of social psychology

at the London School of Economics and Political Science. Good to have you with us. Your thoughts on what you've heard so far? Thank you for having me. I am impressed at the insight and reflections of those young people that we just heard. I mean, they're clearly really thinking about it. And in the research I do, I hear them also talking to each other

and kind of seeking understanding and support as they try to find their balance. But clearly it is something really new for this generation. And parents have not grown up with those kinds of challenges themselves. So it's new for them too. Yes. What about that figure that Christian was bringing us there of 74% of girls feeling anxious at least some of the time?

Yeah, I think anxiety is something that is really distinctive for this generation. They're experiencing it more, they're talking about it more. But I did find it really interesting in that survey that when asked, what are they feeling anxious about? Yes, it is social pressure and expectations to look a certain way, but it is also a much more academic pressure that they're feeling. And they are clearly feeling like the future is in their hands. They've got to study well. They've got to get those grades.

They seem a very kind of serious generation in that way. And maybe parents can also address some of those academic pressures as well as the kind of, you know, how do they look. It's an interesting picture, though, isn't it, Professor? Because in one way, the phone is a gateway to friends, to hanging out, to gaming, to perhaps having a good time. There is also, but it gets blamed for a lot of things. Maybe rightly, maybe not.

But then there are these outside pressures that perhaps we don't talk as much about. Right. I don't, actually, I'm puzzled by that. Why don't we talk about the sense that this generation especially has such academic pressures on them? And is it, are they not confident that they can get the grades? are they because they were, you know,

studying in the pandemic, maybe that really not their confidence about learning or maybe it's a kind of fear of the future and, you know, how are they going to earn enough? Well, here's an interesting, let me bring a hopeful note from the study because it revealed that 80% of boys and 79% of girls feel positive about their future.

That is indeed very encouraging. And they do, when I'm, interview them, they absolutely also say they believe the future will be digital and that they kind of understand that digital environment, even though they can't always control it. And, you know, obviously it's weaponised against them in many ways. I wonder if we should be having more nuanced conversations with them about what they're engaging with and not so much like limiting time, but talking about which are the helpful activities and which are the problematic ones. I spoke to a taxi driver the other day who told me he was

trying to have a competition. He had set up a competition between his kids to have the least amount of screen time and there was a monetary reward at the end for those that had the loss. Because he says one son was you know clocking up a hundred hours a week no bother to him. So here's another. This is Eleanor who got in touch

Morning Woman's Hour. I'm a 34 year old teenager on maternity leave and spending far too much time on my phone. I force myself to read books instead of mindlessly scrolling and I feel a lot more human and less of a drone for it. But, Professor, do you have any top tips

for our parents who are trying to wean the teen? Well, the number one is always the saying, which is be someone that your teen can talk to. So that means don't be judging, don't be punitive, listen to what the young person has to say. And then I think what they'll tell you, and I think they can tell you, is some activities are helpful

and supportive and in touch with their friends and some, they know that they are wasting their time or feeling like a, yes, just kind of mindlessly scrolling. So can we bring some nuance into, you know, how do we keep the help and support and friendship but reduce the mindlessness and especially watching the really risky and extreme content that does definitely make young people anxious?

Before I let you go, a phone in the bedroom or no? So hard. I have my alarm on my phone on the weather. It's, again, it's what you watch. But maybe no, if that makes it easier. Professor Sonia Livingston, BBC Education reporter, Christian Johnson. Thanks to both of you for a little conversation about the Teen Summit. There will be, of course, lots more conversations that are taking place across Five Live today, picking up on themes of the survey, including AI, misinformation, overwhelm. and the addictiveness of tech.

Tomorrow I'm joined by the poet Nikita Gill. Do you join us for that. I'll also have Karen Pittman off and just like that. And the morning show fame right here in studio. I'll see you then. That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time. I'm Rory Stewart and I want to talk about heroes.

When I was a child, I imagined a heroic future for myself in which I would achieve great things and die sacrificing my life for a noble cause before I was 30. But my experiences in the Middle East and in politics showed me that there was something deeply wrong with my idea of heroism. From BBC Radio 4, my podcast, The Long History of Heroism,

explores ideas of what it meant to be a hero through time. How have these ideas changed? Who are the heroes we need today? Listen to Rory Stewart, The Long History of Heroism, first on BBC Sounds.