Woman's Hour - 17/03/2026

Episode Date: March 17, 2026

Women's voices and women's lives - topical conversations to inform, challenge and inspire.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been, no.

I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is creation myth. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, I'm Nula McGovern and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. And while you're here, I wanted to let you know that the Woman's Hour Guide to Life is back. You might have listened to some of the episodes from the first series, including ambition without burnout, or turning aging into your superpower.

Well, we've got six new episodes. for you over the coming weeks that will give you practical tips on issues like self-promotion without feeling awkward, caring for aging parents, navigating infertility with family and friends, and also how to love your face, whatever your age. I'm really excited about this series of The Woman's Hour Guide to Life, so I really hope you'll join us. You will find the episodes in the Woman's Hour podcast feed on Sundays. It's only on BBC Sounds. But now, back to today's Woman's Hour. It is indeed. Hello and welcome to the program.

Well, a new report out today says that prisons are failing to recognise the potential of family contact in prisons. The chief inspector of prisons will be with us this hour. Also today, we'll discuss a new approach to tackling extreme online misogyny. Plus, checking breast health, checking heart health. It's a lot for women to keep on top off. but Australian researchers have found a way to take care of both at the same time. We will explain all that. And have you undergone a pilgrimage?

I've a few under my belt, including Loch Derg many years ago, an Irish Camino fairly recently. But I was thinking about this as I read about the new Archbishop of Canterbury embarking on a six-day pilgrimage to prepare for installation service. Dame Sarah Mulally will walk the 140 kilometres, so that's 87 miles, from St. Paul's Cathedral in London to Canterbury Cathedral.

We're going to hear more about it from the Reverend Sally Hitchner, who knows her. But what about you? Have you also undertaken a pilgrimage? And I mean it in every sense, religious or not, you know, putting on your walking boots

and getting out there. Where did you go? Why? What did it give you, if anything? You can text the programme. The number is 84844 on social media we're at BBC Woman's Hour. or you can email us through our website.

You can send us a WhatsApp message or a voice note and that number is 0,300-100-400-444. I'm looking forward to hearing all about your adventures. Now, let me start with health appointments. We will be speaking to the chief inspector of prisons in just a few minutes' time. But I want to begin instead with this story. We know health appointments are important.

We also know they can take up a lot of time. but I want to talk about something that will give women a two-for-one deal, if you will. Researchers in Australia have developed an AI tool, so artificial intelligence, that means a routine mammogram can also monitor your heart help. The study is published in Heart, that's the journal of the British Cardiovascular Society, and it shows it's as accurate as the standard methods that are used by doctors. The cardiologist and Associate Professor Clare Arnaut is Global Director of the Cardiovascular Programme, the George Institute for Global Health.

It's an independent medical research organisation. She joins me from Sydney. Great to have you with us. So perhaps, Claire, you could begin by describing how this works. Many of us are familiar. We're getting a mammogram, for example, but perhaps you'd like to talk us through it. Yeah, absolutely.

Thank you for having me. So look, I think it's important to say that we started with the problem when we started this research. And that was that in Australia, about 30% of Australian women will die from cardiovascular disease every year. And it's one of your leading causes of death in women in the UK as well. But contributing to this, women have a high burden of modifiable risk factors that go undiagnosed and untreated.

And we have no national screening program either in Australia or in the UK. So we're relying on what we call opportunistic screening in general practice. And as it turns out, women are about 12% less likely than men to have that opportunistic cardiovascular screening. So we knew we needed to get innovative when we came up with the solution. And we looked to breast screening because, to be quite honest, they're phenomenal at what they do. So breast screening or screening mammography is offered free of charge in Australia and

the UK to women in middle age. And it's incredibly well attended. So I think in the UK, about 63% of women will attend their first mammography appointment. But what people don't often know is there's actually things on a mammogram that predict your risk of cardiovascular disease. So things like breast arterial calcification. Okay, let's stop there with that term. What does that mean? So it's these tiny little calcifications that you can see running across the arteries in a breast.

And interestingly enough, Nula, they're seen on mammograms every day. the week. They're seen with the naked eye and they're largely ignored. Above and beyond that, there's then things that we can't see with the naked eye or we can't discern like density, breast density. But they have been shown to predict cardiovascular risk. So we were really lucky in that there is something called the Life Pool cohort in Australia. And that's 50,000 amazing women who have agreed to let us use their screening mammograms to do research. And they've agreed to let us analyze those mammograms and link them to their health outcomes. And so we did exactly that.

So we used machine learning because, as I said, there's things you can see with the naked eye, but maybe not quantify. And then there's things we can't see that the machine can see. So with this, and it all sounds really fascinating, it's basically an AI tool that you are employing to look at a mammogram image. A couple lines I was reading is that you add in a woman's age and then you're able to estimate her risk for heart problems. So tell me a little bit more about that. Yeah, so usually when you have cardiovascular screening, if you're lucky enough to get it, depending on the risk calculator they use,

you might have to have a blood test. You might have to tell them history. You might have to have your blood pressure and it's all, you know, mixed up. Like a jigsaw. Yeah, exactly. We required nothing more than this mammogram itself and a woman's age. and its predictive power, so what you call it C index, was as good as the other risk calculators that are out there right now. However, it was not manual. It didn't require a person. It didn't require any additional tests, no additional radiation, no blood tests,

no extensive questionnaires. It was essentially a two-for-one. So you get your breast screen and you get a cardiovascular screening assessment as well. And of course, I can see a lot of the positives in this, just from the off in the sense we've talked about the figures. You talk about the 60% there. Obviously people would like it to be hired

to 100% when people are turning up for breast screenings for example but at least if they get to one appointment they could have two appointments at the same time when it comes to their health. But this is Australian research and I'm just wondering

when it will be in the real world if it will and also globally whether others are looking at at what you're doing. Yeah, so you make some really great points. We've created the algorithm. We know the algorithm works, but that's very different than implementing

in the real world, right? And the very first thing that breast screens said to us is our core business is, you know, predicting a risk of breast cancer. You cannot interfere with our core business. And so the next body of work we did was we actually spoke to 200 women. We spoke to 50 GPs, general practitioners.

We spoke to breast screens. And we worked at how could this be implemented into your workflow that added and did not cause any detriment? An overwhelming support from women. In fact, we had hundreds of women contacting us saying, where can I get this? And can they? Yes, is the question. Not yet. Not yet. The answer to your question with respect to the UK is I think we have very similar models and I think it could absolutely be implemented in both systems. You have incredible systems to kind of highlight at-risk women and precipitate the downflow to their general practitioners, their primary care physicians for

cardiovascular assessment. Where it falls down, and an area that I suppose is a passion of mind is in low and middle income countries, where breast screen is not offered routinely to women free of charge. And I have to be honest and say, this is not the solution there right now. And we need to keep that in mind because 80% of our cardiometabolic disease in the world is in low and middle-income countries. I also want to get into the issue of gender. You know, I was struck by the fact we know the cardiovascular disease has often been perceived as a man's disease. And we've spoken a number of times on this program about why it should not be viewed in that way.

I saw there was a British Heart Foundation funded review that found that women were 33% less likely than men to receive a coronary and, angiogram after a massive heart attack, 28% less likely after a more minor heart attack, less likely to be prescribed preventative treatment, statins, for example, beta blockers, etc. How do you change that cultural or societal thinking about the heart being something that women need to think about? It's an incredibly difficult question that I spend my career on, and you're right, there is bias. is biased before a woman even enters the hospital. Data suggests it takes a woman an hour longer than a man to present to hospital when she's having a heart attack. And we know there's contributions to women not prioritising cardiovascular health, us not getting the message out there, but women are also

more often in carer roles and more likely to put their needs secondary. When I speak about solutions, education is essential. We need to be educating our clinicians, our medical students. We need to be educating the workforce, but we also need to be elevating the voices of women. You know, women need to be advocating for other women. Women need to be heard. We need to be getting the message out there that it is a leading or a leading cause of death in women and men. We need to be talking about the symptoms. We need to be prioritising it. We need women in research. Women are almost systematically excluded from research so we don't have data that reflects them. So there's a lot of work to do. And I suppose do you see any hopeful turns? For example,

we did, in raising awareness last Friday on the program, we spoke about the lack of female bodied mannequins and the number of women not receiving CPR compared to men, people afraid to actually touch women's chest, for example. I'm talking about an emergency situations. And that program was last Friday if anybody wants to listen back. But I'm just wondering about where you see the possible inroads of hope when it comes to changing attitudes. Look, I see a lot of hope. And even just to touch on what you said there,

when we teach CPR, we teach CPR on male mannequins. So if I can speak to you about a step forward at my institution in Sydney, we've got a whole bunch of female mannequins. So we're teaching CPR on female mannequins. They didn't exist a decade ago. I run a women's heart clinic, the first in Australia, there's now women's heart clinics across the country. And what do they do?

Sorry? What do they do? What does a woman's heart clinic do? So we see women who have conditions that are either sex-specific or have a sex preponderance. So things like coronary dissection, pregnancy in medicine, sorry, cardiovascular disease in pregnancy, things like that that are more likely to affect women. The Lancet Commission on Women's Heart Disease, almost two years ago now has a beautiful action plan

and really elevated the issues at heart. I think funding bodies and journals are really starting to ask questions. If you're not including women in your research and diverse women, right? Not just white women. They're asking questions. So I absolutely see hope. So let me turn back to the two for one, the scan that does the mammogram and also takes a look at your cardiovascular health.

when could women expect it to be rolled out internationally? Well, look, we're doing our best to get this in front of as many people as possible. And the next step in Australia for us is obviously we're speaking to government. We've spoken to our Premier. We're speaking to funding bodies and we're starting an implementation trial. And we really hope that we can get to that critical mass with the voice of our consumers, our women. It'll take years and that's the reality that it takes years. But once we've had a proof of concept in Australia, there's absolutely no reason that it couldn't be rolled out in places like the UK.

And what I would say is women advocate, advocate for what's important for you. And I think our voices need to be heard. A call to action by cardiologist and associate professor, Claire Arnott. Thanks very much for coming on. I do want to say, of course, if you do have health concerns, please do contact your GP. I was asking, did you undertake a pilgrimage of any sort? And you have already responded in your droves. Here's one.

I hiked the Appalachian Trail in 2022. Over 2,000 miles in America. It was totally life-changing. I learned about resilience and grit. And most importantly, I met my wonderful husband on day three. Day three, wow. We fell in love through four months of hiking and camping together. This is a very romantic story.

With the no real-world distractions, make-up, wealth, jobs, we got to fall in love in the forest. absolutely amazing. Thanks, Women's Hour. My American husband loves listening, so, says Sophie. Well, thank you, Sophie, for sharing that lovely story with us. Another, I did the Portuguese Camino de Santiago with my daughter last year. She lives in Australia. I don't see her enough. The Camino gave us precious time together with nothing else to do, but walk, connect and chat. We had so many laughs along the way. It was just a beautiful journey of love. At 56, it also reminded me that my body can do scary and challenging things. I'm strong. I can still have adventure.

8444 if you'd like to get in touch. We're going to be speaking about the Archbishop of Canterbury's pilgrimage which is going to get underway before her service in Canterbury. Now, I want to turn to prisons, as I mentioned at the top of the programme. They are failing to get the basics right when it comes to helping vulnerable women inmates keep in touch with their family. That is according to a report that is out today. The investigation by Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Parliament,

prisons, looked at jails in general, but visited two women's prisons as part of their inspections. They found keeping in touch with families was too often, only seen as a nice to have. The chief inspector of prisons is Charlie Taylor and joins me now. Welcome to the program. Thank you so much for joining us. Now, your report says, good morning, that there are too many jails making it too difficult for families to stay in touch with the prisoners. What effect was this having on the women in prison that you and your team spoke to? Well, it's an enormous concern for us because we know that women have told us during our inspections the most important thing that helps them to stay settled, to stay in a good place while they're in prisons, is about having good contact with their family.

There are 17,500 children out there who have a mother in prison currently. And what we found was that the opportunities for contact really just weren't good enough for women. and often weren't as good as they were in the better men's prisons, which was particularly disappointing. So can you explain that for us specifically, Charlie? Like, what's the problem? Getting access to the phone or go through them? Yeah, well, the first thing is that women are often placed further from home. There are a few women in jails.

Those jails are spread more around the country, and they're further from home. But what we found was that instead of being creative about putting on visits, So, you know, a prison like Eastwood Park in Gloucestershire is also servicing women who are coming all the way from Cornwall. So the idea of taking your family, putting them in the car, driving all the way to see the mother in prison, for a one-hour visit, which may well be then delayed as a result of, you know, prison staffing type issues. We found that visit is really thoroughly unsatisfactory. And some women are just deciding that actually it just isn't worth the problem. bother. We're finding on some prisons websites, for example, they didn't get

the visiting hours right, so they have the wrong hours. When it comes to things like phone numbers being made available to women, when you come into jail, phone numbers have to be vetted. And that vetting process can often take a very long

time, again, meaning that women aren't in contact with their children. And the effect on those women and the effect on those children is enormous. Can you explain the phone number being vetted? Is that a phone, like a personal phone? A lot of us will not be familiar with the specifics. Yes, indeed.

So when a woman comes into prison or a prisoner comes in, they will say, I'd like to be able to be in contact with these phone numbers. And those phone numbers will have to be vetted before you're allowed to then make calls. So that you're only allowed to call specific numbers. But that often takes a very long time. The other thing is that for family members ringing into the prison to book a visit, There's a national visits line, but often it just rings off. So people wait ages and ages to try and book a visit.

And then it just rings off and they can't get through. So there's enormous frustration here in an area that we know is critically important for rehabilitation, for families being able to stay together and to stop so many women being caught in this revolving door of coming in and out of prison and ultimately losing contact or losing their children entirely. So let's talk about that issue. You talk about recidivism there, because some might not have a great deal of sympathy for offenders who are in jail

and might see, you know, being deprived of your family contact as part of the punishment. Well, you're not only depriving the woman of family contact. You're depriving the children of family contact. You're punishing the children for an offence that the mother has committed. And that surely is not acceptable. And we know the evidence is really clear on this. women who stay in contact with their family, families that are able to visit regularly to keep speaking to the mother, we know that those families are more likely to stay together.

We know that those women coming out who remain in contact with their family in that way are less likely to reoffend. When you talk about the report and prisons not tapping into the potential of family contact, I mean, is maintaining family contact part of a prison gun? role. Some others may say that there are many more priorities above that. Well, look, we know that prison governors are really busy people, but we also know that levels of self-harm within the women's estate are eight and a half times higher in the men's estate. They're enormously high levels of self-harm in women's prisons. And one of the causes of that is the frustration that women have that they cannot stay in touch with their families.

So even if at the most basic level, making sure that visits are happening may mean a prison population that is happier, that women within the jails are more stable, they're happier, and they feel they're making progress with their sentence. And that has to be good not only for the families, for the woman, but also for the staff working in those jails. I do want to read. We did ask the Ministry for Justice about this.

They told us they will be looking to address these concerns by including key updates to policies like strengthening prisoners, family ties framework. But that is due to be published later this year. What about that? Well, we'll look forward to seeing what comes in that. But lots of the things that we're talking about in this report are not big ticket items that require lots of money. It's about prisons being thoughtful and creative about making sure that they get the best value from their visits, that they are able to maintain that.

essential family contact between women in prison and their families. I want to bring in Sophie Carter now, whose partner is 18 months into a 25-year sentence. Sophie, thanks for joining us this morning. When your partner was convicted, how would you describe that process in getting information about how to visit, how to keep in contact?

It was more or less trying to work it all out on my own while you're suffering with the shock and the trauma of him having been taken away and the crime in the first place. So you're trying to navigate, where is he? I'm sorry, Sophie. It's just breaking down a little bit. They're upset because he's like a big...

Sorry, Sophie. I'm afraid the line is bad. I'm going to go back to Charlie for a moment. Can you get... Yes, I'm going to get the team to speak to you and maybe take you off video. which may help. Bear with me for a second. I'm going to pop back to Charlie for a moment. Charlie, just why we get that line sorted. It's interesting. Sophie's first point of contact there

is talking about trying to get information about where he was. How difficult is it for prisoners? It shouldn't be difficult, but it's surprisingly hard to do. So exactly what Sophie described in those very short couple of minutes was actually something that we find. very regularly, which is that even knowing where a loved one is, isn't always readily available and that's a huge cause of anxiety, both for the prisoner and for the family. Let's try Sophie again. Thank you, Sophie.

Let's try this. Tell me a little bit about what happened for you. Can you hear me now? Is that a bit clearer? It is. It is. Thank you. Yeah, so initially you're suffering with the shock of not knowing where they are and then we've got three young children together and they're asking where daddy is

and they want to have contact. I've given it a second, but I'm afraid the line has just gone down again, even as we tried to correct it. I'll come back to you, Charlie, for a moment. I'm afraid with Sophie, we just can't get her story there. The line just is not good enough. Have you felt that there has been

an openness or a willingness when you speak with the ministry for justice, for example, or with prison governors about changing the status quo as you see it. Yeah, I think there is and we've begun to see some progress. We put out another report last year about what helps women to Cape in prison

and we are beginning to see some improvements. So, for example, family days, which aren't very often, aren't days and really just a couple of hours, That's a great opportunity for families to come into jail to spend longer periods of time, get involved in activities with their loved one who's in prison. And that's something that we're seeing some better examples of that we have done in the past. So yes, there are some improvements here. But ultimately, this is about prisons really taking the idea of visits seriously.

That families aren't just a nice to have. This is something that is going to make women in prison more settled. it's going to help to bring families together and it's going to help to rehabilitate those women and make them less likely to re-offend when they come out. It's really essential that we end the levels of family breakdown that come as a result of prison because that's a cause of children being put into the care system

and stuck in the care system and mothers losing contact with their children and potentially staying in a world of crime and getting back into re-offending. I'm hoping third times a charm. I'm going to go back to Sophie for a moment. Thank you, Sophie, for bearing with us. Please tell me your story.

Hello. So, yeah, I was saying that trying to get the information of where he was and then trying to organise a visit, it probably took about four or five weeks before we were able to establish a visit. And in that time, I've got three young children asking where daddy is and just managing their emotions and also not knowing what's going on with him and trying to manage my own emotions.

So it is a very stressful time. And when you're trying, Sophie, for example, to get that information, what are you coming up against? Is it that you're calling a number? Like, tell me kind of the blow by blow or the day by day trying to track him down? I think it's more trying to contact like the police, or outside services to try and help you and find this information.

And a lot of internet searching because we were just thrown into it with no prior, you know, it's like an alien world that we're just suddenly thrown into and trying to navigate it with no information. There isn't anybody that hands you out a booklet of like, this is how it works, this is who to contact. It's completely a sole fact-finding mission. But I did have a help of charities as children. heard and seen, which helped us try and navigate, oh, this is how it works. So you do rely on

charities to kind of help you with navigating that system initially. How important is it those visits would you describe? And I understand he was a long way away initially. Yeah. So initially, it was a 12-hour round trip. And thankfully, I have a car, so I can do it with a car, but some families have to navigate it with public transport and the cost of that as well. And with three young children under five, I was doing that journey on my own every weekend and for an hour and a half visit. But that was absolutely essential for my children because especially the slightly older ones, they would wake up in the night and say, where's daddy and cry for him because he was always there in their life. So it was then able to give

and that stability of, look, this is where daddy is. He hasn't completely disappeared, because otherwise it's like a grief, like he's gone. And so having that contact for him as well and for the children is essential. And yeah, you just can't, you can't, like, not have it or not do it because I want my children to have that emotional. And I know you're saying it as a very positive for both sides,

but it must be a very different, thing to bring your children into a prison, even if it is to see their dad? Yeah, it is. And I think the children, even at a very young age, kind of under, I didn't tell them we were going to a prison, but even my four-year-old was like, this looks like a prison. And they kind of, they found it hard initially to say goodbye and to have to leave him there. but now as time has gone on it builds their resilience

and they kind of understand this is how the process works and it's kind of just how life is at the moment that at least they have contact with him and they can see him and that stabilises their emotions knowing he hasn't completely disappeared my understanding is you met with the Ministry of Justice last week to talk about this

how did the meeting go what were you asking for it went really well I was really pleased that they're able to to listen to us because we often just feel forgotten like you say the person in prison he's done something bad you shouldn't have to like deal with them but that's not our perspective that's our loved one and the children want to see their father

as much as they can so we were asking for more especially my youngest daughter she was asking for more regular like family visits where they can spend more quality time with their father having lunch together, playing together, and also for softer seats, that's what she said. So often it's hard seats and you have to sit across from your loved one. And thankfully the prison that he's at now, they have sofas

and you're allowed an enhanced sofa visit. And things like that are really important. So the children to have that valuable quality time with their parents. Do they have physical touch? Can he cuddle them? Yes, yeah. He's allowed to hold the children and cuddle. them. But he's not allowed to

move around with them. So if they wanted to get a toy, he's not able to come with him to get a toy or to move around. And with that meeting, what do you want exactly? I know you talk about the softer seats and also

kind of a more extended period of time with your partner. But is it your case specifically or are you speaking for partners of other prisoners? I think I'm speaking generally for most

children and partners are prisoners who want to maintain that contact and also the distance in travelling to prisons. The hardest thing was trying to get him move closer and trying to understand that it's

very difficult for families to actually travel to a visit and the cost of that travel makes it really hard. And like you said, the mental health support in prisons isn't always there. Well, there's a long waiting list. And the family being that mental health support is really important. And so I suppose just wanting to look into it would be helpful.

There was like a family liaison, I think, is the word that you're getting to there, Sophie. Thank you very much for sharing your story. and also for persevering with the technical difficulties. That is Sophie Carter, whose partner is 18 months into a 25-year sentence. I also want to thank Charlie Taylor, who is the chief inspector of prisons. That report out today talking about the potential,

they say, of a family contact for prisoners. If you have been affected by anything we've spoken about during this interview, you can find support links on the BBC's action. For years, I've seen. sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid.

Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been, no. I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is Creation Myth.

Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for all your messages that are coming in on pilgrimages. I've been walking the North Wales Pilgrims route with friends over the past three years on weekends when we can. But we stopped last August because I was diagnosed with breast cancer. I'm recovering well. I'm glad to hear that. We have 13 miles to go and I'm trying to build up my strength to hopefully complete the journey in the summer. The aim to finish is helping me to focus on recovery.

that is from Victoria. Victoria, thank you so much. I wish you all the best on those 13 miles. Here's another. As part of what was known as the Camino to COP, me and other people carried a ginkgo tree on foot, 300 miles from Hereford to Glasgow. Oh yes, the Glasgow Copp in October 2021, where it was planted during COP 26th Climate Change Conference as a symbol of resilience and hope for a sustainable future for humanity. So says Nick. 848. 8.8.4. for four if you would like to get in touch. And those stories, I am reading out because there is a moment of history for the Church of England. Dame Sarah Mulally, the new Archbishop of Canterbury, is today beginning a pilgrimage

from St Paul's Cathedral in London to Canterbury Cathedral. She's going to walk the ancient Beckett Camino, which was once travelled by medieval pilgrims. But her office believes she is the first Archbishop of Canterbury to do this. It will be part of her spiritual, preparation for her role ahead. And to help us explore more about this journey, we are joined by the Reverend Sally Hitchner, who knows Dame Sarah and his parish priest of North Lambeth. She has worked

alongside the Archbishop when she was Bishop of London and has walked the 87-mile route herself more than once. Good morning, Reverend, and welcome back to Women's Hour. Good morning. Happy St. Patrick's Day. Thank you very much. You have noticed I have my green velvet jacket on. Indeed, Why don't we mark these various moments? I haven't done a St. Patrick's path, but I have done St. Kevin's in Glendalock. That's a different pilgrim route. So tell me a little bit about why you think the Archbishop

has chosen to begin her new chapter with this pilgrimage. Well, pilgrimage is something that has been used for a very, very long time in Christian tradition and in other traditions to begin certain phases of life. It's something that people do to try and get closer to God. and something people do to take a moment out of ordinary life, away from your emails, away from your desk, just a chance to let your body move and slow down to the pace of walking.

I think there's something quite symbolic about walking from the centre of London out. The first day, you're just walking out of London. And it's amazing to, on your own two feet, walk out of the very centre of urban life through the suburbs out into the countryside and journey that through. and Bishop Sarah is taking six days, which is a big chunk of time for an Archbishop of Canterbury. And I think it shows her commitment to prayer and wanting to start her ministry as Archbishop

with reflection and contemplation. I'm the right foot, shall we say. But let's talk about that actual Beckett Camino. And I'll come back to some of the job, I suppose, that's ahead of the Archbishop. But the Beckett Camino, you've done it yourself. How did you find it? I love that idea of walking for a day

and leaving London behind. You know, it just unfolds. Like you walk from right in the centre of town. I walked from Trafalgar Square, but walking slowly through the centre of town. And you begin to see the landscape change. You begin to see the houses get smaller and more far apart. And the grass gets bigger.

You begin to eventually get to the point where you're walking in between houses. And then walking to the edge of London is just phenomenal. I think we so often leave London quickly on trains or a public transport. But there's something about just doing it on your own two feet that makes you feel free in a way that I don't think anyone who lives in London, the centre of London, you can feel free

unless you've actually physically walked out on your own speed. But that whole journey to Canterbury, is it arduous? Yes, I mean your feet ache by the end of the first day. Yes, I'm sure. And then the second and third day, it can get quite grueling. But there is something, I think, about just slowing down. and it's our distance in another way in that you're forced to think about things that you don't make time to think about.

I think it brings things back to mind and we spend our lives just distracting ourselves with sort of one thing or another and even with work. And actually it brings things closer to you. She's walking it with her husband and with a couple of other people. So she does have people to chat to. She does. And she'll be stopping along the way. She is, yes. She'll be stopping at various places including

the Aylesford Priory to meet with some Catholic brothers there and she'll be stopping at St Margaret of Antioch Church in Darrett which is the sixth oldest church in England and of course she'll be stopping at the Shrine of St Jude which is the Apostle for Hope so she's stopping at various places and she's and she's stopping for today morning and evening prayer

in churches along the way and I think it's about the ancient and the modern sides of the church but also of England and connecting with rural and city and we're such a divided society and I think for her to slowly walk between places I think is an experience of trying to be a unifying force. Because it is a commitment as we talk about and also it's quite interesting to think about medieval and modern ways of life,

for example. We can all be very busy, but she is taking time out of a busy schedule to be productive to, I suppose, think ahead on what she is facing. We mentioned the six days, because some of the issues facing her will include dealing with safeguarding, same-sex blessings, the role of women in the church, including her own election as Archbishop of Canterbury, which had vocal opposition as we know.

But I suppose perhaps, and you have met her, you will know her way of thinking through issues that that would be facing her. Yeah, I mean, I don't think I can speak for her, but I don't know when you did your pilgrimage, it's a chance to reset. It's a chance to sort of get a different perspective. And perhaps for her, I would imagine, it's also a chance to root back in prayer and to take some really extended time to be still and to think and to feel human again.

There's something about pilgrimage that connects you with your humanity and your body. And I think perhaps it's an opportunity to come back with a fresh perspective to be able to... We've tried so many things in these areas of the church that haven't worked, been sometimes more painful than not. And I think she, I would imagine she wants to come back

with something more rooted, more fresh perhaps. And I think also humble might be the word that also comes to mind. Yeah, I mean, there's something about pilgrimage that just makes you humble. You're walking as an individual. You're not surrounded by buildings or by machinery. And I think there's something about that journey of walking humbly as just a Christian, as many Christians before of her have done from the centre of London to the place of pilgrimage, which in this case is Canterbury Cathedral, that just reaffirms her back with her individual walk with God and that possibility of bringing that into her leadership and to not to lose herself in that. Speaking to her office, it appears to be that she would be the first Archbishop of Canterbury

to do this. She seems to be good at being first. You know, first woman, first all sorts of things. And actually we, perhaps our world needs first. Perhaps we're in a different world now that needs people to think differently and different people to come in with different perspectives. So long might last. Let me read a few that have come in.

This has touched a nerve with the listeners about going on pilgrimage. In May I'm spending a week walking half of the fishermen's trail down the west coast of Portugal. We are four women, friends from our university days, all age 65. We can't wait. My brother did the same with his uni mates. So lovely. That's Jude in Cornwall. wall. Another, my mother Barbara has been going to lords annually for well over 60 years. I've been there

too. In the early days, she went as a handmade to the sick, mainly on the catering side. Latterly, she has been a sick pilgrim. I'm sorry to hear that. And at the age of 103, she hopes to go one last time in May. That's Frank. Frank. I hope she has a wonderful, wonderful trip. Another, I've been walking the North Wales Pilgrims route with my friends for over the past. Oh, actually I did read that one a little bit earlier. To the next one. My husband and I walked the Camino de Santiago in three separate stages in memory of our daughter who died age 27 in 2010. It was an amazing spiritual experience.

The scenery incredible and everyone had a special story to share. We have memories that will last a lifetime. It's so interesting. It's kind of an opening. it seems to bring to people. And people of all different backgrounds and beliefs. And I mean, I thought Frank's mum is a great case and point in that you can do it of all different ages.

And actually pilgrimage is something that's very accessible to people. I think you earlier call it Victoria mentioned she's doing a pilgrimage in chunks. And actually people can come and experience something very deep and human. And I think it is something that's becoming more accessible to people of all different beliefs and backgrounds. And they're finding something really meaningful in that. experience of physically walking and reflecting and connecting with the spiritual. Yes, yeah. Everybody is taking time out of the modern life from what I can hear coming from our listeners

to try and get back to basics or to reflect or to connect with others that also find solace perhaps in those ways. So you'll be watching it. You're not going to walk it this time. Not this time, no. She can do it by herself with her company. And your thoughts before her installation? Oh, she's in all of our prayers.

And I think we all want the first woman, Archbishop of Canterbury, to be able to be someone who shows what women can do. He sort of shows that actually this diversity is needed at all levels of leadership because people bring different experiences and different perspectives. And I'm sure she will be able to bring something of that into her leadership. Reverend Sally Hitchner, thank you so much for joining us on Woman's Hour. And of course, you can follow along with that story and news on the BBC website. Now, in this week's episode of The Woman's Hour Guide to Life,

we're taking on the declutter you've been avoiding. Professional organiser, Vicky Silverthorn, has a brilliantly simple tip for stopping more clutter before it even enters your home. Here's a little of what she has to say. We see something we like and we think we have to have it. And we're not used to just admiring it. and I think if we learn to admire things and just holding that thought,

hold that thought in place and do a bit more mindful shopping, we would all own a lot less. It doesn't have to mean because some things in a shopping basket online that we have to then buy it. It doesn't have to mean if we, you know, walk around the shop with it for 10 minutes in your hand,

that's a great tip. If you walk around it for 10 minutes, you often go, I'm about to feel guilty about buying this because I don't need it. You put it back on. Honestly, it gives you just as much. much happiness as if you would have bought it. It's about being a bit more more mindful and selective

about what you are letting into your home. That is the Woman's Hour Guide to Life, the decluttering you don't want to avoid available now on BBC Sounds, or you can search online for the Woman's Hour Guide to Life collection where you will find all the episodes. Now, on Women's Hour, we've often spoken about how to tackle extreme misogyny online. Discussions that were sparked again following Louis Theroux's latest documentary inside the Manosphere, where he speaks with influencers who promote hyper-masculine,

often misogynistic ideas and about their impact on boys and young men. Well, we've spoken about big tech regulation, educational initiatives and legal actions to try and tackle this type of misogyny. But for our next conversation, we're going to hear about another proposal to try and combat it.

Here to discuss our Professor Sarah Hawks from the Gender Equality Think Tank 5050, who specialises in gender, gender equality and health equity. Also, Raywin Connell, a feminist sociologist, studying the social theory of gender relations and masculinity. She's a professor emerita at the University of Sydney. Good morning to you both.

Good morning. Thank you for joining us. Raywin, let me begin with you. How would you describe the manosphere? As a business, in a way. It's the market there as boys and young men, as you said, who are facing difficulties, finding a path in life, a lot of people have a fairly bleak prospect, I guess,

since the rich and powerful trash the economy. We don't have a lot of precarious situations. They go online and they meet influences whose business model involves, you know, making outrageous statements of one kind or another, attracting attention and then monetising it. They have something to offer the young man and, well, a number of things to offer. They offer a bit of a sense of solidarity, a sense of being in a boys' club. they offer a bit of excitement,

maybe a bit of sex or at least instructions how to get it. And they offer enemies and people that you can put, legitimately put down. And of course, women are number one on that list. And any proponents of gender equality, I think I would say as well. After watching the documentary, I did think salesman is a very good way of putting it. some might go further. Sarah, let me bring in you in here. As a public health specialist,

why do you think extreme online misogyny should be deemed a public health issue? What are you seeing? So what we're seeing is that, well, I think first of all, that the Manosphere is a very broad church and the recent documentary that everybody, I'm sure,

knows about or is perhaps watched, part of which Raywin has described is one smallish part of this very loose collection of groups and communities and online influencers really are yeah well influencers but it goes beyond that so you've got the you've got influencers you've got influencers you've got in-cells you've got pick-up artists looks maxes you know you kind of call them what they what you want but they they represent a very broad spectrum of their outlooks on misogyny as well and their outlooks on sexism. And I think that one of the dangers that we saw with what was in the documentary, for example, is that that's the social influencer group,

some of whom may be on a pathway to much more extreme views and visions of how to enact their misogynistic beliefs. But I think that from a public health perspective, what we're seeing is that these are very, exactly as Ray Wyn said, these are very attractive and enticing narratives that are being put forward to boys and young men as here's your solution to life, the universe

and how to get a girl, or how to blame girls for everything, or blame women for everything. And it becomes, you know, like any aspect of using social media, it's an addictive phenomenon. And you yourself said, Nula, that you've had lots of discussions

on the problems of social media. So you'll know for sure all of the data that shows that there is a clear relationship between the use of social media and risks of depression and anxiety in young people. And there will be some, of course, that push back against that. It's always a contentious issue when we talk about social media and young people,

even if we talk about with Australia, banning social media for under 16s and those that don't think that's the right idea. But for boys, are you talking about it as a public health issue for boys in young men or for girls? For everybody. So I think what are you seeing? Like give me an idea of what the public health impact might be. So one aspect will be the, and I'm a firm believer, that there is a clear relationship between social media use at a dose response level and risks of depression and anxiety.

Beyond that, what we're seeing is the creation. of an incredibly toxic environment for girls and women who go online. What we're also seeing is young boys being exposed to the influence of the impact of body dysmorphia, the risk of thinking that the way you need to change your body is through the use of steroids, through the use of looks maxing, etc, etc.

I wanted to stop you there with the looks maxing, which you had mentioned. I just wanted you to finish your point. So this is a subculture online that focuses aggressively on maximising physical appearance. And it can go as far as surgery or other practices. But it's something I suppose that's been talked about recently as well. So they are some of the issues that you're seeing with public health. But what difference area do you think it would make if extreme online misogyny, for example,

were classified as a public health issue? Yeah, so just to finish the previous point that I think the other aspect is that what it is doing, what all of the environment is doing is legitimising not just a push back on gender equality, but a push back on the idea that women have the right to control their own bodies. I mean, I think there was some of that that was clear in the documentary that women's reproductive autonomy, women's choices over their own bodies gets delegitimized in a lot of things. the conversations that we're seeing that we're witnessing online. So I think that as a public health specialist, I would say that there's a really good history of what happens when we move from thinking that the only solution to this is regulation, to thinking, which is, you know, a kind of punitive approach, to thinking that if we took a public health approach, we could actually start talking about prevention.

What would that look like? So if we move towards prevention, we would put a lot more effort and energy into those kinds of interventions that you've already mentioned. So educational interventions, provision of opportunities and hope, a much more positive outlook. In other words, offering boys and young men and girls an alternative. Where, though? Like how would they come across those things? Well, I think in multiple sites. And I think that's one of the benefits of a public health approach. You're not talking about just one sector of society.

It's not the responsibility just of the education system. It's also the workplace, the health system, multiple sectors. So multiple pronged. Raywin, your thoughts on extreme online misogyny being labelled as a public health issue? I think that's one of the ways we need to think about it. We also need to think about it in terms of the kind of society that's being brought into existence. with young men encouraged, you know, to have hostile or exploitative attitudes to young women.

The, you know, the loss of trust, the loss of human, you know, good human relationships there is important too. It's hard to think, I mean, it's hard to think how we can offer help to people who, to young men and boys who are already deeply into this. Though there are some websites, some groups, who are trying to offer paths out of the Manosphere, detox programs and so on and so forth. But to me the most important,

indeed much of the largest group, is boys and young men who are not yet deeply in or who are still at the stage of exploring or trying things out. You have Raywin studied masculinity for over three decades. Indeed. As a trans woman, born a biological male, I'm wondering, have you noticed any differences in your experiences of misogyny

on how you were treated before or after transitioning? I think that's unquestionable and usual for trans women. They discover some realities that other women. have long experience. Anything that you'd like to point to? Harassment in the street. Suspicion, the general

atmosphere of being marginalized, that kind of thing is familiar enough. Do you think, and I think you're touching on it previously, that the idea of masculinity has evolved or how has it evolved over those decades?

It's always changing historically. No question about that. There's plenty of evidence of that. And it's been changing quite visibly in the last generation or so. I guess, think of the young men there now. With their fathers and their grandfathers, there was a widespread model of respectable masculinity of being the breadwinner for a family,

marrying, being a father. so forth. And increasingly that model of masculinity has become unsustainable. You can't do it on the kind of many of the kinds of jobs or semi-jobs or lack of jobs that are available to young men now. So, yeah, new things are happening. Some of them toxic. Some of them much more impressive than that. Because that model that you've outlined is what I feel I hear and see

about returning to a more patriarchal form where there is a provider that leaves the home to work and that the woman will stay within the home to work. I mean, do you understand that attraction that some are signing up for? Ray, when I'll start with you? Right. I find it difficult to understand the attraction for women

unless it's women who have been, you know, badly knocked about by life and find some model of security here. I suppose more for men is what. Are the young boys, really, which are the ones that are on the cusp as you talk about? For the young boys, it's increasingly a fantasy, but a fantasy that will give them a sense of dignity, perhaps. And that may be enough to make it attractive. I mean, that is interesting, the idea of dignity as we come back to.

public health again, is that something that is trying to restore? Sarah, in my last minute or so, you're a parent of a young man yourself, I understand. What are parents at home? How can they tackle these issues, keeping that public health hat on? I think they can tackle it in a couple of ways. One is about having conversations with the young man in your life or the young men in your life. I think programs such as your owner kind of raising awareness that this is a problem, the number of hours that young people are spending on social media is not having positive impacts on their mental health and possibly even their physical health. But I think the biggest realisation exactly as Raywin has commented on is that this can't be,

we can't ask parents to sort this out just by themselves. This has to be an all-of-society approach. This has to be something that all of us are involved in, no matter which sector we work in. And that, to me, is the value of a public health approach. Ray Winconnell, Professor Ray Winconnell, Professor Sarah Hawkes, thank you both so much. Thanks also to your messages.

Here's one. I too, Nula, have done Lock Derg. It was a whiz. Only the wretched midges were a real penance. I've also done the last 70 miles of the Portuguese Camino, loved it, except for the heat. Happy St. Patrick's Day, says Ross in Edinburgh. Happy St. Patrick's Days to you.

I will see you guys in a couple of weeks. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Moral Mays on BBC Radio 4. I've never been more concerned about the future of humanity than I am now. Examining one of the week's main news stories through an ethical lens. If we don't do something, millions will die, billions will die. That's the state of play here.

Sometimes combative, sometimes provocative, always engaging. I'd like to go one level deeper and talk about your fundamental moral commitments. Do you have any? The new series of The Moral Mayes. with me Michael Burke from BBC Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Sounds. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids.

I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been, no. I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is Creation Myth, available now wherever you get your podcasts.