Woman's Hour - 17/04/2026

Episode Date: April 17, 2026

Women's voices and women's lives - topical conversations to inform, challenge and inspire.

Hello, I'm Dashiani Novanayagum and welcome to Women's Hour on BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Now, ahead of the 22nd BAFTA Games Award taking place this evening, we're diving into the world of gaming and how women are forging their own paths through it. Now, if it's something you're passionate about, don't step away because we'll be talking to the host of the awards very shortly. And if you're a gaming fan yourself, well, get in touch with us. and let us know.

Will you be watching the awards tonight or do you enjoy watching others play? Is gaming a way to lose yourself in something completely different? That text number 84844, you can email us through our website on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour

or send us a WhatsApp or voice note on 0300-100-444. Just watch those data charges. Also, a year on from the Supreme Court's landmark ruling on the legal definition of a woman under the Equality Act, the government says new guidance on single-sex basis is coming after the May elections. Well, we'll hear from former Equality and Human Rights Commission Chair Baroness Faulkner on what she makes of it and her reflections since stepping down.

We'll also speak to the author of a new report which discovered that children as young as 13 could be recommended sexually explicit content on one social media platform. More on that late. And I'll be speaking to Sir Lali Fabian, who was last night named Photographer of the Year at the Sony World Photography Awards for her powerful portraits of women from Indigenous communities across Mexico. So much coming up over the next hour. Do stay with us. That text number again, 84844. But first, the 22nd BAFTA Games Awards will take place tonight. Now, the event honours the best and most creative video games of the last year at London's South Bank Centre this evening.

Now, according to industry body UK interactive entertainment, Britain's video game industry was worth over £8 billion in 2025. But globally, recent years have been a huge period of uncertainty, with thousands of games developers losing their jobs and studios closing. Tonight, though, is all about celebration. Women make up almost half of gaming audiences. And for only the second time in its 22-year history, the awards are being hosted by a woman. YouTuber, sports presenter and gaming influencer, Elz the Witch, who joins me now.

Els, a very warm welcome to Women's Hour. Thank you so much for having me. It's an honour. Now, look, preparations for tonight's event are in full swing. So thank you for taking the time out to speak to us. Can you set the scene for us? What are you expecting to see? Yeah, so I've just arrived at the Queen Elizabeth Hall this morning. We're going to get into rehearsals very shortly after I've spoken to you.

But it is just such a staple in the UK Games industry, the BAFTA Games Awards, celebrating all the best in gaming worldwide, but in particular here in the UK and just really showing out for the games industry. And I'm so honoured as someone who came up through doing a YouTube channel seven and a half years ago to be here tonight and standing on that stage is going to be just one of the highlights of my career and I just can't wait to get on the stage. Well, you're very much our preview into this.

Tell us, is it going to be an even gender split? Who's attending? And, you know, a lot of people will think of the Baptists. They'll think of, you know, BAFTA films. Is it as glamorous as that? What's it like? It's still very glamorous. I mean, I'm going to be wearing something really special on the red carpet tonight,

which I'm excited about. But, yeah, it is very much a split. The people attending are going to. be people from behind the scenes in the gaming industry, particularly those developers and studios which make the incredible games that we get to play as well as some of the actors and actresses in the games. And then we've got people a bit like me that are content creators and live and breathe gaming and just want to come out and show support. So it is a glamorous night. But also I think one thing I love about the gaming industry is that you don't have the pressure to be showbiz and

dress up. If you don't want to, it's very much accepting. If you just want to come, obviously it's black tie, but if you want to come and be more casual, then everyone is just here to celebrate the games. And that's the most important thing. And you said celebrate the games. Tell us about some of the key women we might see tonight, people who are pivotal figures in the games industry. So there are, it's actually such a wide range in the list of nominees. But if I could focus on one category, it would definitely be the performer in a leading role. We've got two incredible women, Eric Ishi from the ghost of Yotai, sorry, game. And also we've got Jennifer English from Clare Obscure Expedition 33, which is our game that is nominated most this evening.

They've received 12 nominations for that. And Jennifer plays an incredible role in that game because she plays a 16 year old girl. And the way that she does it is just so, the way that she narrates that role and, you know, portrays what it's like to be a 16 year old girl. in the world is just such an incredible feat. And the fact that they've both been nominated in that category is really exciting. I think that as well, just being here this evening, it's focusing on women behind the scenes as well that go into making these games. So it's very much, you know, celebrating the actresses and actors in those games,

but people behind the scenes as well because so much love goes into making these games. I mean, we often think of games as being a very male dominator space, at least traditionally, but there are women who like, you love video gaming or getting involved in the creation of video games. How has that changed and how much further does it need to go? I think that there's always been this stereotype, especially when I was younger, that a gamer is typically a boy, which I have always disagreed with because since I was eight years old, sort of in the late 90s, I lived and breathed gaming. I loved it. I used to play Pokemon on my Game Boy Color and I had a PlayStation 1 and me and my sister used to

just play every day all day. So I don't think that it's ever been the case that there was more men playing video games than women, but I think that it was marketed that way and we were taught that that was sort of the quote-unquote stereotype. But here in 2026, it is so much different. The landscape for women in this industry is so promising. And I'm so incredibly, you know, proud to be a part of it. And when I started my YouTube channel back in 2018, there was still incredible women then, both behind the scenes and on camera. as well. But one of the reasons why I got into this industry was to showcase that there is no stereotype and you can be a woman and love video games, but also be into makeup and fashion

and sports and anything that you like to be a part of. You don't have to be pigeonholed into one specific thing because you're into video games. And that was something that when I was growing up was always a point of contention. If I told someone I liked video games, I would get the response, oh, you're a girl. You don't look like you'd be into that, for example. So it's all about squashing that and nowadays in 2026 there are so many opportunities for women. Obviously there's a lot that still can be done but it's a really promising space. Tell us about how you got into video gaming because you said there you started off playing when you were very young with your sister about eight years old. But this wasn't a career that you initially

chose to go into was it? No, well this career didn't exist back in the late 19s because I mean the internet was around but it wasn't what we know it to be today and being a a person that plays video games on camera and people watch you wasn't even a concept that was even existing. So there was no blueprint. As I mentioned, when I was younger, there was the stereotype around what a gamer is. So for me, there was no women to look up to on a camera that played or talked about video games. So, I mean, nowadays, I think that it's so special that young girls get to look up to people and have inspiration that they can make a career. out of this and it really is what you make of it. So I feel so, you know, blessed that I'm able to do

this. And the way that I got into gaming was just a love for it. I mean, me, my, my sister and I loved Pokemon. So our parents brought us Game Boy Colors for Christmas one year. And I had an aunt who, she went traveling. She went on a, I think she was turning 40. So she decided I'm going to leave everything here and go traveling. And she left her PlayStation with us. And that was the point where everything sort of changed for me. I was a little bit young to play the game, so I would just sit and watch my sister play the games, which is ironic because that's a career path for many people now.

So even back in the late 90s, watching someone play a video game was still a thing in a way. But even when you left school, you went on to do a degree in computing and business. And you got a first class degree. And then you went off and you worked for IBM. Yes, I did. So my life and career has really very much been in these quote-on-quote male

dominated industries and there's something that I find really motivational about that because I love to prove not only myself wrong, but I love to prove people wrong that I can flourish in those environments. So when I was at school, I decided I'm going to do a degree in IT and business because those were the two subjects I found the easiest, honestly. And I really did love it. And one of the really special things about my degree, which I did at the Manchester University Business School, was that they did a career fair at the end of each year. And in my final year, I presented my dissertation, which ironically was about how companies can use social media

to make their brand back in 2013, I think it was. And IBM were in the audience, and they had a very good program about getting women into tech. And they, you know, pulled me aside afterwards. I met them and then I applied, and I went on to start there as a graduate. So, yeah, there was a running theme with my career about, you know, being in these quote-unquote male-dominated industries, but it's really all about showcasing that as a women, you can do it all.

I mean, there will be lots of women listening who will be in a job thinking, I want to do what she does. So just tell us how did this opportunity come about? And how did you make that transition from IBM to content creator? I was 26 at the time, which actually is quite old in the YouTube space, believe it or not. but I just took a leap of faith. I knew deep down that I had something else that I wanted to do of my career. I just couldn't pinpoint what it was yet.

So I saved a bit of money and then I handed in my notice and quit my job with no plan of what to do next, which in a corporate world is quite an odd thing because everyone asks you. So what have you got lined up? What's your next job? And I said nothing. But I really took a look at, you know, what have I loved throughout my life? what makes me different in a way and what I'm really passionate about. And that was always video games and being a girl or a woman in that space.

So I, you know, went away. I learned how to create a computer from scratch. I built a computer just by looking at YouTube videos. I taught myself how to film. You're really a one-man band when it comes to content creation, especially with gaming on YouTube. It's a really competitive space, though, becoming a content creator. How did you make yourself stand out? My whole brand, I guess, when I started,

was being a girl that loves video games, but is also really into fashion and makeup and sport and not it just about being the video games. It was about me. So it was about me playing the video games. And I used to, especially in the early days of doing YouTube, I used to love dressing up and experimenting with my makeup up and playing games that I used to love growing up, like the Sims, for example, but creating

the Love Island Villa in the Sims and narrating some of the characters within that, or creating Wembley Stadium and putting the England football team logo on the side of Wembley Stadium, just little things like that and really putting my own staple on it. And I should make clear to everyone actually that L's the Witch isn't actually your real name. It's your stage name. And there is a story behind why you chose it, rather why it's the name of your YouTube channel. Tell us the story behind that. So when I was at school, high school, you know, in life I get grumpy about the small things in life.

And when I was at school, my friends, if I was in a bad mood that day, they would call me a witch. They said, don't be so witchy today. So if I was ever in a bad mood or a little bit grumpy, I'd be called a bit. And it's still stuck now, but almost 20 years later, they still call me witch. So when I was thinking about a brand, I think a witch is quite an easy thing to put into a logo and make a caricature. you're out of. So Ells the Witch was the brand and it's just stuck since then, which is awkward sometimes because people get confused and think that I am maybe a real witch, but I am not on the record. Well, Elle's one listener has just messaged in. Kirstie says, I am a 44-year-old woman

gamer in Suffolk. I started it a year ago as I was tired of doom scrolling on my phone. I suffer from anxiety and playing games helps me relax. In capital letters, she says, it's great. So many women are doing it and I've made loads of new friends and it's a social life for people with social anxiety. A hundred percent and also shout out because I am from Suffolk originally. Southwold in Suffolk if anyone knows it. But yes, I agree so much and it's actually one of the points that I've built into the show this evening for the BAFTA Games Awards all about how games help us escape from our reality

sometimes if we're having, you know, a tough day or a particularly tough time, we can turn to games as a form of calming ourselves and an escapism. And Women's Hour was actually my, my mum's favourite show. We lost her a few months ago to stage four kidney cancer. And I think that it's so important to celebrate how video games can help people through difficult periods in time, especially with grief. And I mean, I used to turn to video games when my mom was in the hospital and I used to play them on my iPad or my Nintendo Switch. And it was so important to me to be a calming presence for her and I really would put it down to video games for, you know, doing that doing that for me and I think it's such a relatable thing that we can turn to video games

during those times. Our, Els, we really do wish you all the best tonight with the awards. We're all rooting for you and it sounds a whole lot of fun. Els, thank you so much and you can watch the BAFTA Games Awards hosted by Els the Witch at London South Bank Centre. The ceremony can be watched live on BAFTA's official Twitch, Twitch, channel tonight and YouTube channel. And if you enjoyed hearing more about gaming, well, you can listen to the Women's Hour special on gaming from last year. Just head over to BBC Sounds to hear the episode from the 27th of July 2025. Now, a year ago, the Supreme Court made its landmark judgment on single-sex spaces. In a long-running case against the Scottish government brought by campaigning group for Women's Scotland, the court stated,

The unanimous decision of this court is that the terms women and sex in the Equality Act 2010 refer to a biological woman and biological sex. Well, last September, the Equality and Human Rights Commission, EHRC, then chaired by cross-party peer, Baroness Keshua Faulkner, issued guidance in the form of a code that sets out how businesses and other organisations should respond in practical terms to the Supreme Court ruling. And only this week, Women and Equality's Minister, Bridget Philipson, has announced that the government intends to publish new guidance on single-sex bases next month after the elections on the 7th of May. Well, responding to that announcement, I am now joined by Baroness Faulkner, whose term at the EHRC came to an end late last year. Welcome to Women's Hour, Baroness. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. So, look, this week, the EHRC announced some changes to the guidance. this hasn't been published yet, but what was your response to the announcement?

Do you know why the changes were being made? Yes. Well, it is concerning that changes have been made because the law is very clear that the HRC is the regulator, produces the guidance, the government either has to accept it or reject it. There is no in-between negotiation that can take place because ultimately, there has to be legal certainty about who was responsible for writing that staff. So that is concerning, but I think what is more concerning will know once the guidance is published, to what extent it's been changed.

But what is most concerning is that it will have been 15 months by the time this guidance becomes statutory, becomes part of the law. And a year nearly since the HRC gave the government the code, and the delay has resulted in both women and trans people not knowing how to interpret the law. It creates threats, confusion, anxiety and duty bearers keep saying that they can't do anything until they actually see it. So I wrote to the government last October saying that if they were going to take longer not to publish it, We, EHRC, wasn't allowed to publish it once we gave it to government. It was owned by government.

And I wrote to them last October saying, will you at least revoke the unlawful code from 2011, which is misleading people and denying women and girls and men and boys their rights? She declined to do that, the government minister, Bridget Philipson, who was responsible for it. Well, you've said that the government, by delaying this guidance, has created uncertainty. But they will say it's very important

that they get the guidance to be clear and that this will be now reflected in the changes that we will see after the 7th of May. Well, they need to be very careful for the reasons I've just explained about the changes. There is, I can say, because obviously I was responsible for that code being produced, that the legal aspects of any ruling

reside with the Quality and Human Rights Commission they do not reside with government. Government trying to say, unusually, frankly, given they normally say that they're not responsible for anything, government now trying to say that it is their job to make sure it's correct, the changes that we gave them in September only comprised about less than 30 pages. It shouldn't have taken eight months to go through 30 pages with all the lawyers that the government has available to them.

So I'm afraid I think it's less than straightforward or innocent this delay. Well, we did ask the government for response, and they did say in relation to that, that they have always supported the protection of single-sex spaces based on biological sex. They said that the Supreme Court's ruling last year brings clarity for women and service providers, such as hospitals and refuges. And they say that we are currently in a pre-election period

when governments do not make announcements on significant issues relevant to the areas where elections are taking place. And they do also say that on Wednesday they received an updated draft code of practice for services, public functions and associations from the EHRC. And we are now working at PACE with the intention of laying the code in May after the election period. We are getting it right, ensuring duty bearers are able to uphold the law. So that is what they have said in response. But look, I wanted to ask you, because you, were chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission for five years until the end of

November last year, how would you describe your time in that role? Well, that was a bit of a white-knuckle ride, five long years. But it was an enormously fulfilling role in the sense that it was a great honour to serve. And I hope that people will agree that I served to the best of my ability. I mean, I should say that you took over at the height of COVID on December 2020. And I mean, one journalist did refer to your time there as tumultuous. Yes, I think that would be fair. I didn't meet any staff or the board for about six months because of lockdown.

All the people with whom I had to work very closely and intensely were just little tiles on a small laptop screen. And that obviously doesn't make for understanding each other and sharing a common purpose in driving things forward. So that was incredibly difficult. After that, I discovered as I got into the weeds that it was a very activist organisation rather than taking its legal responsibilities

as seriously as it should have. Well, so you didn't just have to deal with COVID. You said that it was a white knuckle ride. And actually, there was a very personal toll on you and your family too during your time there. You've spoken before about the impact that online abuse had on all of you. Talk to me about that now.

Yes, well, you know, I don't think it's fair for me to be the story. If you accept life in a high-profile public role, then I think it comes with the territory that you need to be, to have a certain level of resilience. And it was pretty horrible. People put out memes saying things that were beyond the pale in terms of racism and transphobia and things like that, they were attributing to me. And that was very distressing.

But I think what I thought was most difficult to cope with, I completely gave up on social media. For five years I didn't go near it. Obviously, in the beginning, I did see what people were saying. You don't respond, but you see what people are saying, and that's very damaging and hurtful. But what was more damaging and hurtful to me personally, in terms of my integrity, was these allegations that I had bullied or harassed people while

fulfilling, discharging my responsibilities and fulfilling my role. That was an eight-month-long investigation fairly early on into my tenure. And at the end of it, I was cleared of all allegations. I had got a full letter of apology from the board, and I even got compensated for part of my financial outlay in getting legal advice and so on. I think people don't quite appreciate when they are to get you that one's personal integrity

is actually the only thing one has left when one is in the public domain. And allegations of that sort are not just incredibly damaging to the person to whom they're directed, but they're very corrosive for the whole organisation, because the entire organisation, when you're a chair, gets buffeted by that. And it was deeply unfortunate and unhelpful that people thought that they could get rid of me to change the policy direction.

And that's the reason, in my view, that they tried that. But it's deeply unfortunate that they thought that would be a way to achieve policy aims. I mean, you said then that when people go for you in that way, all that you have left is your person. integrity, but that is very much being publicly trashed through these allegations. How did you cope with that? Did you ever consider quitting? Yes, I mean, the moment I was presented with allegations, by the way, just headline allegations, no details, no dates, no nothing.

For the moment I was presented with the allegations, I rang the minister's office and offered to resign, as one word, because it must be clear that you don't damage. the organisation through whatever is said about you, and that the public interest comes before anything else. So, but the, but I was, you know, very helpfully supported in that that I was asked if my conscience was clear, and of course it was. And I was told to go out there and clear my name in that case. And I did that over the eight months that the whole story went on.

Coping personally, it was very painful. but, you know, if you believe that they're unsubstantiated and unfounded, then you basically have to go through everything you've ever said and done and build your defence and that's what I did. And alongside these professional challenges, you know, people won't know, but you were also faced with the diagnosis of ovarian cancer during your time there. And you chose not to go public with it. Yes, well, I had to, quite rightly,

I had to immediately tell my senior staff, in fact, everybody, I think, in the organisation. And I immediately told the Cabinet Office, the civil servants responsible for me and my conduct, who told the minister. So it's not that I chose not to go public. Frankly, the diagnosis was so dire, so severe, I didn't know how long I'd be alive.

I went through two rounds of chemotherapy, three operations, and I thought my time was quite limited. And therefore, my objective was to do my job as well as I could. And going public or not was not even something that crossed my mind. I would never hide a cancer diagnosis from the public. it just didn't appear to me that it was appropriate for me to say, look at me, look at me, now I've got cancer. I'm not that kind of person.

It's part of the resilience. I just continued my job. In fact, I even remember you might laugh, but I even remember leaving hospital to come into a board meeting and then checking back in at 5 o'clock in the afternoon after my board meeting. The doctors laughed their heads off. They couldn't believe what they were seeing. I mean, it's a phenomenal amount to go through for any woman to go through.

Were you able to take any kind of break at all? How did you switch off? No, I didn't switch off, actually. And I have to say that all the three doctors who looked after me asked me if I would give up working and appeared to be very supportive of the fact that I intended to continue. In a funny way, it may sound counterintuitive, but having a reason to live,

having a clear set of tasks that needed to be accomplished that were time sensitive actually kept me going. It was terrific not to have to dwell on my own plight and to consider my obligations to other people as the chair of that body and to fulfil those obligations. And now that you have stepped down from the EHRC and things are very much in the background, I wondered if, you know, what are your reflections

on the impact on the trans community of the Supreme Court's judgment and the EARC? HRC guidance. I mean, let's acknowledge we're yet to see the final version, but many people would disagree with your stance on it. Well, that's why I have been so upset of the, in my opinion, unreasonable delays that the government has taken. Because if both women and men and trans people could see what the guidance says, they would be incredibly reassured. The Supreme Court ruling was very clear that trans people's rights had not been taken away. And we have reflected that in our guidance.

Trans people are protected, as well as women who now have more clarity. They don't need to go to court. They don't need to lose their jobs and be called bigots all the time for holding the views that they hold in terms of defending their privacy, dignity and safety. That's all that the Supreme Court did. It clarified that. and we wished that the guidance could have been out there immediately. So it's heartbreaking to see that people are still losing their job still in court

and trans people are still so worried because the government hasn't done its job. Baroness Faulkner, it was good to talk to you. Thank you very much for coming in. That was cross-party peer and former chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, Baroness Kishwa Faulkner. Now, away from home, the unlawful. untold stories of women football fans is an exhibition that is currently on at the Beacon of Light in Sunderland. Portraying the experiences of women on the terraces of the northeast since the 1950s,

it looks at the more recent feminization of sports fandom over the last 30 years and how it's led to more opportunity for women to actually become football fans. It also questions if this has automatically led to gender equality. Well, I'm joined by women's football sociocle. Stacey Pope, Professor in the Department of Sport and Exercise Sciences at Durham University, who co-created the exhibition with the Durham University Museums team. Welcome to Women's Hour, Stacey. Hello. First of all, what led you to put this exhibition together?

Well, this is based on just over two decades of research on women football fans and accumulation of that. And the focus is very much on amplifying women's voices. there's been a lot of assumptions that women were not present at football matches. And this is, especially in earlier decades, and this is not based previously on academic work. There's a lot of popular assumptions around that as well. So this was really about amplifying voices and telling women's stories. One of the issues around those assumptions is that it can have negative stereotypes for women at matches today.

So it feeds into the assumptions of women. are not real football fans. So this was very much about shining the spotlight women's experiences and bringing that to life, retelling that history. I mean, my mum is very much a football fan. She loves Arsenal. All my friends, I went to an all girls' school.

All of my friends were football fans. So, you know, they would all balk at this suggestion that they don't have a place in the match. You interviewed over 200 women to understand how they felt about football culture. What exactly did they tell you? Well, I mean, with the focus of this particular exhibition, we've looked at going back as far as the 1950s, so as far as all history can go back through to the present day.

And despite the negative assumptions that women are not real fans and that they are perceived as inauthentic in their support, I mean, there's such rich data around the meaning and importance that the football holds for women. in their lives. And this was really about capturing that and bringing that to life and overturning some of those negative stereotypes that was in the case. On a real practical level,

have things improved for female spectators as women's involvement in sport has increased? Yes, I know, I would say. So one of the things I argue with my research is we've seen the feminisation of sports fandom over the last three decades or so where there's been increasing opportunities for women to go to football matches.

However, that's not automatically there. It's just going to be able to access. It doesn't necessarily equate to equality. And so we're using this exhibition now to sort of springboard into the next part of the research journey. And that's more of a collaboration, working with police and other major stakeholders to address issues around women's safety at football matches

because that's something that hasn't really been focused on previously. And sadly, although there's a lot of, There are women that go to matches that don't have any issues, but there are also issues around gender violence and abuse at football today. And these cases are currently going unreported. So it's more about making sure that football is safer, welcoming and inclusive for all women. I did see that one woman said she'd take her daughter to women's football games, but she absolutely wouldn't take her to the men's football matches because of the misogyny.

you know, how widely was that sentiment reflected by other women you spoke to you? Yeah, well, and having looked at this is an exhibition focused on fans of the men's Newcastle and Sunderland teams, but I have also undertaken work with fans of the women's game, and that is definitely something that comes through as well in the respect that some people will go to football irrespective and will find strategies to minimise risks to their safety, whereas others may stop going to matches, something that, in the experience that you've just shared there, that's something that there were examples of that, where women would be perhaps go to, go to the women's game over the men's because of the risks. But what the work is showing is that there are

currently, due to risks to women's safety, in some cases of women where they are no longer going to football matches as a result of that. And just tell us briefly, what can people expect to see at this exhibition about fandom? Well, we've got the story. So we've got the, it's available with Sunderland and Newcastle 11 selected stories from each of the supporters. So showcasing those. And we've also got a lot of focus on handmade football scarves that have been made by supporters. So this is very much a reference to that age before mass produced official merchandise.

So when people used to be able to, would knit their own scarves. We've got some artwork on display as well and it's available online and also currently on display at Beacon of Light in Sunderland. Stacey, thank you so much for joining us on Women's Hour. That was Stacey Pope, Professor in Department of Sport and Exercise Sciences

at Durham University and away from home runs until the end of the season at the Beacon of Light and is also available online. Now, I want to turn to this story because children as young as 13 could be recommended sexually explicit content on social media platform X.

Now that's according to a new report which exposes potential breaches of the Online Safety Act. The centre of countering digital hate has warned that X's algorithm and weak safeguards mean teenagers are also being exposed to possible direct sexual contact from adults.

Now yesterday, Kirst Dahmer called senior figures from social media platforms TikTok Hoc, X and Meta to Downing Street to demand greater action on child protection as the government considers new online restrictions. Well, joining us to discuss this now is Imran Ahmed, CEO of the Centre of Countering Digital Hate. Imran, welcome to Women's Hour. Good morning. What did this latest research from the Centre of Countering Digital Hate reveal about

the content that teenagers were able to access on X? Well, we've seen a report recently by the Children's Commissioners saying that young people were more likely to encounter pornography on social media rather than on the open internet. And in particular, they said that X was a problem. So we wanted to quantify to what extent that was true. We set up accounts as teenagers, as two teenagers on that platform. We were able to do so without any problem. we then started searching for words such as sex and boobs, and eight out of ten of the bits of content that were returned to our searches were explicit in nature, including pornography, including depictions of sexual acts themselves.

We then tried to join communities. We wanted to see whether or not there are sort of things on ex-ex communities like Facebook groups which you can join, which are dedicated in this instance to pornography, and we were able to join many of them. Now, look, what was interesting was that professional pornography actors and production studios, we couldn't actually see their content because they were actually doing the right thing and putting 18 plus so explicit content markers on their content.

But what was really disturbing is that at the end of all of that work, we went back to our homepage and that the algorithm had learned. That's what we were interested in. So three out of ten of the bits of content, content served to us by the platform, even though we weren't following anyone, three out of ten was explicit in nature. So that was just because you'd entered in search terms that young children may enter, and the algorithm was responding immediately to that.

Correct. And in fact, some of that content was the most explicit we received. There was, I hesitate to say this early in the morning, but there was even very, videos including animals that was served up to us in the algorithm. And to me, I mean, I'm dad of two young girls under the age of two, so I am both tired and, you know, scared about these platforms. We then found that adults were with, so when you create an account as a child on X, by default, no one that you're not following can contact you,

but the child themselves can switch that off. It's a very simple option to switch off. And once we switched it off, we started receiving videos from other users, from those ex-communities that we joined, including in one instance a video of a man who was performing a sexual act upon himself. So in every...

every sense this platform is not abiding by the prescriptions of the Online Safety Act, which say that platforms have to have robust age verification, that they need to ensure that kids aren't exposed to this kind of content. And in particular, designates pornography as a particular threat to young people, which it is. Now, I should say that we did contact X for a response, but we haven't heard anything back from them yet. And, you know, people will be asking, why can't X distinguish between adult and child users and the content that they can see?

Well, they can. They choose not to do so. And I think this is very much an instance where the proprietor, Elon Musk, of X, is stumbing his nose at regulators and saying, come and get me. And, of course, when that challenge comes up, there are instances when, um, when countries have actually stood up to platforms. And generally speaking, countries and democracies win. Platforms do not.

So what I would like to see is this leading to immediate and robust action from Offcom because what we have here is prima facie evidence, you know, the fact patterns that are needed for them to start at the very least a regulatory investigation, if not take urgent regulatory action. And they have extraordinary powers. But I'm afraid that they have been rather. cowardly and rather timid and rather indolent slow in doing so. Well, we did go to Offcom for a statement and a spokesperson said that protecting children is a

priority for offcom. Under the Online Safety Act, tech firms are accountable for ensuring sites, platforms and apps are safer for the children who use them. They must take a safety-first approach in how their services are designed and operated, including by combating grooming, tackling child sexual abuse material and using age checks to prevent kids from accessing pornography. Those companies that do not comply can expect to face enforcement action.

We've launched investigations into more than 100 platforms, including X, and issued over a dozen fines for non-compliance. What do you make of that? I've seen the actions that have come out of Ofcom and in the very few instances where it has taken action, and this has been the law, so that the actual provisions relating to children came into force in July 2025. They've been dragged, kick in streaming.

I'm afraid that there has been a degree of cowardice, to be frank, and a lack of leadership at Offcom in using the extraordinary powers that were awarded to them on a bipartisan basis. The Online Safety Act unusually had support from every party in the House when it was passed. So they have the absolute confidence the British people are behind them, that Parliament is behind them. And yet they're still failing to act. There is an opportunity, I'm afraid, available here, which they don't seem to be taking. Because what I would have liked to have heard from them in response to you was we've seen it, we've seen this report, we're digging into it and we will take action. And X needs to change now.

And that's not what they said, I'm afraid. I mean, some people will wonder, because the Online Safety Act has been in place since 23. So, you know, we have had this law for three years now. Clearly, it's not working. To what extent is this also due to weak or insufficiently robust legislation? No, no, that's not fair because the act became an act of Parliament in October 2023. You know, believe me, this is what I've been working on for the last 10 years. In September 2021, I was the first witness for that act before the Joint Committee. But the provisions only come into force in July 2025. And at that point, platforms are meant to be compliant.

The law is extraordinary, too. I mean, it uses a clever risk-based approach. It's sort of a duty-of-care model for platforms. It has extraordinary penalties available under it. I think it could be slightly more robust. I think it could integrate things like AI algorithms and advertising more than it does, but it is still a really robust bit of legislation. The problem isn't the tool. The problem is the person using the tool. And I'm afraid that off-com itself has been too, it's been timid in the way that it uses its powers.

There is this great opportunity, of course, for a revolution at the top of off-com, for new guidance, for new governance, because the current chair is stepping down, and new chair is to be appointed. And what really worries me is that the government, again appears timid in who is seeking to appoint as a chair because this is about protecting our kids from content

that they really shouldn't be exposed to at that age. No one wants 13-year-old seeing this sort of content. We don't have a response from the government or off-com on that. But, you know, just briefly, because obviously you've looked at exactly what the sort of content is available for young children online, what they can see. I mean, what are the long-term implications for teenagers' mental health when they are exposed to this content?

That is not my particular area of expertise as a researcher as a scientist, but what I can tell you is that what we are seeing, I spoke to Sir Mark Rowley a short while ago, a few months ago, and he was telling me that one of the things that really disturbs him is that some of the increases in Vogue, in violence against women and girls, is actually coming from teenager on teenager violence. And whereas it was reducing in other age cohorts, it was increasing there.

And his conclusion, and my conclusion would be, I think that this is because young people are being exposed to pornography in which violence is a significant feature, some of which is very, you know, some of the stuff that we were seeing was very twisted and is corrupting their view of something that should be a beautiful part of a human being's life and their journey through it and of healthy relationships.

And that's really disturbing, because you combine that with all the manosphere, stuff that's out there, the general misogyny on the internet. And this is a, the digital world is terrible for women. Imran, it's good to speak to you. We'll have to leave it there, but it is an area that we will come back to you. That was Imran Ahmed, CEO from the Centre of Countering Digital Hate. Now, I want to turn to you my next guest who is in the studio with me, Sittlali Fabian,

who has just been announced as for. photographer of the year at the Sony World Photography Awards last night for her series photographing Indigenous communities across the Wahaka region of southern Mexico, highlighting their pioneering work. Sittlali, welcome to Women's Hour. Well, thank you so much for having me here. It's such an honor. Well, congratulations.

I mean, you found out less than 24 hours ago. Has the news sunk in that you've won? I'm still feeling like I'm in a dream. Honestly, it's such a massive news and sharing this award with, I feel like sharing this award with the women in this project. And I'm just grateful for them and with them for contributing and collaborating with me. And you didn't just win photographer of the year. You also won the creative category as well.

Tell us about that. Yes, I had the. creative category which I think it is an opportunity for photographers for expand the medium of photography and try different approaches and different experimentation on on with it with the media and yeah it was it was just fantastic to to witness all these variety diversity of voices and projects tell us what what made you pick up a camera because you grew up in your dad's photo darkroom, didn't you? Yes, my dad has a photo store in Waxaca

and I grew up there. My first approach to photography was on everyday basis in a way to say witnessing like people coming to bring their film to be developed. So for me was this experience of seeing how relevance was photography to people, to their memories, to preserve their memories, you know, like when 20 years ago, 30 years ago, it was still film, it sounds so far away, like, you know, with digital technology and so on. But, yeah, like, thinking of, it was precious to have a role and think about how many images from that role you were able to bring to life. So, yeah, it was just like,

lovely just to be part of the building of memories for Oaxaca and people back home. Well, tell us a bit more about your winning series because it's called Bia Stories of My Sisters. It's plain the significance of the title. Yes, Vira is a word from Sepotech language. It is a word that we use to call the women that we have affection for. It can be an auntie, a niece, a friend. And it is used without thinking of hierarchies. In this sense, I feel like embraces the significance of sorority.

You know, like what means like Avira is a person, a woman that you love in your life. And it is just like this massive significance that you can call this to your. auntie, but your aunt can also call you Vira. And it's just like, yeah, I feel like it is amazing to understand cultures from language. And yet that's why I decided to call this project Vira. And the women in this project are friends, now friends, that are doing amazing work in my region. And so each, each photo is a photo of the specific woman.

and they're all black and white photographs that you took. Why did you choose to work in black and white rather than colour? Yeah, well, just to start, like I, as I said, like I grew up basically in the dark room. And I, I, that's the way I just connect with image. I feel like you can, from analog from the camera, you can just focus on the moment, on what are you doing. Color for me is a bit also distracting sometimes. And I feel like with black and white,

I can just focus on the person and just exponentiate the people in front of the lens, for sure. And we should say, because it's not just black and white images. You also add digital illustration around the faces and the bodies of the women. So, for example, you have a photograph of the feminist rapper, Mare Lyrica, and she is a beautiful photograph. She's standing with her eyes closed in almost a dreamlike pose,

and she's surrounded by a blackberry plant, which you've digitally added in. How did the idea to add digital imagery around all of the pictures come from? Where did it come from? For a few years, I've been exploring the idea of the image is sometimes, not enough to tell the story. And I feel like as a storyteller, as a person that I want to share a story, sometimes we need to add a bit more. And I'm fighting also a bit with this idea that we shouldn't be close to the story because I think the stories we are the closest is the ones that we tell in the best way because there are stories that are important and we care for.

So, yeah, I've been exploring this idea of expanding the medium of photography and I'm being having incredible mentors and people supporting me on this. And now with this recognition, just, yeah, like I feel like this approval, you know, like I'm on the correct part to create work in a different way. And, for example, the photo that you were mentioning, Marie, is this photo I find it so strong in the way that she is a person that is always depict, you know, like in a way as a very strong character being a hip-hop rapper singer. And in this photo, I think she shows a very vulnerable side of herself. She shared this story with me about the Blackberry plan that for her symbolizes community and the power of community. And from all the conversations that I have with these women, I create different proposals for them. And this one was the one that worked the best with Mare. And if you, like I like to for you when you visit the show, if you visit the show at Somerset House,

to just see on the details and be able to see all the different aspects on the image. On this particular one, you can see little hearts instead of blackberries and you can see also hands instead of leaves. And it's just very evocating this sense of community and how when we hold hands, when we act as a community, a community we can create great impact and big change. And as you said before, you know, all of the women that you picked are doing something incredible within their community.

Another one of the subjects of your photos is involved in Indigenous futures, which discusses the climate change from the perspective of Indigenous people. I wondered how you felt about the representation and the stories that we tell of First Nations people. And in your view, is that leading to more. authentic portrayals. I feel that there is a long way to expanding the representation of First Nations. I feel like we have a long history of misrepresentation and being seen as the other. And definitely when you see the work that creators from communities like mine are doing,

you can see how relevant is to create works that not only put the view of the photographer of the person there, but also the perspective of the collaborator in front of the lens. So Lali Fabian, it's fabulous to talk to you. And let me just say you can see her work as part of the Sony World Photography Awards 2026 exhibition at Somerset House in London until the 4th of May. Tomorrow on weekend Women's Hour, it's another chance to hear my interview with Jessie Ware on her new album, Super Bloom, comedian Susie McCabe, on turning a health crisis into comedy

and news of the first woman appointed to coach a men's team in one of Europe's top football leagues. Join me tomorrow at 4. Have a lovely weekend. That's all for today's women's hour. Join us again next time. I told my dad, stop immediately. This is a scam. Scam Secrets with me, Shari Valle. He had actually paid £209,000 to the scammers. Each week, we expose a different scam in detail to help you spot the red flags. I'll say things like, I carried on with it and I got great returns.

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