Woman's Hour - 17/05/2025
Episode Date: May 16, 2025Highlights from the Woman's Hour week...
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BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4.
Good morning and welcome to the programme.
The government has stepped in to try and improve mental health in schools.
The Education Secretary, Bridget Phillipson, and the Health Secretary, Wes Streeting, have
joined forces and said,
By deploying NHS-led, evidence-based intervention during children's formative
years will not only halt the spiral towards crisis, but cultivate much-needed grit amongst
the next generation, essential for academic success and life beyond school with all its
ups and downs. So how do you build much-needed grit in children?
This morning, I would very much like to hear from
you. Is this the job of the government or is it about parenting? Is building grit or
resilience high on your agenda? How was resilience built in you? What is your parenting style?
Are you doing things differently to your own parents? Is it all about being able to say
no? How important is it to teach children boundaries and also that life might chuck
them a few curveballs once in a while. Your opinions and thoughts on this, we're talking
about resilience and grit. That text number is 84844. You can also WhatsApp the programme
on 03700 100444 or you can contact us on social media, it's at BBC Woman's Hour and if you'd
like to email us then please go to our website.
Also on the programme, we continue our series of interviews
around the Supreme Court ruling last month
that the term woman and sex in the 2010 Equality Act
refer to a biological woman and biological sex.
Today, I'll be speaking to the head of Amnesty International,
Sacha Deshmukh.
Also, the founder of Everyday Sexism Project, Laura Bates,
will be telling us about her latest book,
The New Age of Sexism.
Laura has done a deep dive into how AI
is reinventing misogyny.
And what happens when at the age of 20,
you discover you have a brain aneurysm?
You write a funny and moving play about it, of course.
Well, that's what Samantha Ipema did, and she'll be telling me more. That text number once
again if you'd like to get in touch with us about anything you hear on the
program but particularly how you build children, how you build grit in children
it's 84844. So how do we teach children to have grit? That's what the
government is suggesting needs to be a new focus in schools to bolster children's mental health. Many minors are experiencing serious mental health issues and
at times may not be getting the support they need to deal with those but there's also discussion
around how to help kids particularly in light of increasing numbers of school absences. This morning
the Education Minister Bridget Phillipson spoke to the Today Programme and explained what the government is proposing.
It's about having the grit, the resilience, the ability to cope with life's ups and downs
about the challenges that are thrown at you and young people today face many challenges,
very different to some of the challenges that I faced and what I'm announcing today with
the Health Secretary is that a million more young people will be able to access mental
health support teams in schools. That's about getting in there early when young people are
struggling, making sure they've got access to trained qualified professionals who can
help them manage all of this. Bridget Phillipson, Education Minister there.
So we want to know what can parents do when it comes to teaching their children grit and
about the challenges of life's life and
all its ups and downs.
Well, here to discuss this with me is Sue Atkins, parenting coach and author of Parenting
Made Easy and child psychologist Laverne Antrobus.
Good morning to both of you.
Laverne, I'm going to come to you first.
What do you make of the government's proposal?
Well, I think it's an amazing and fantastic idea, but I'd say that some schools are already
doing this.
It's not so new and that's important to recognise and even if schools haven't got dedicated mental health
staff in schools there are a lot of teachers and a lot of teaching assistants who are dedicating
a lot of their time to noticing when children need a little bit more help, a little bit more
noticing because they're not quite you know where we would want them to be in terms of their mental health
or their resilience. So I think it's a good idea but I'd want to say you'd be
that the government are building on something that some schools have already
feel is a very important part of the school day.
And reaching out to all parents and teachers if you're listening get in
touch as well 84844., how did we get to this
point that the government is having to legislate on this?
Very interesting, isn't it? It's always saying, oh, it's the nanny state interrupting. There
are a lot of factors in it over the last few years that I've noticed. Obviously, the pandemic
has exacerbated some aspects of this in terms of anxiety. And also the idea of parents working from home perhaps
putting on their, you know, keeping on their slippers, not putting on their school shoes
sort of approach. But it's complicated. But I think it's also needs modelling, you know,
parents need to model what I call tenacity or resilience or, you know, perseverance.
And it starts, I think, even from from toddler age where you help them
persist at trying to do up their zip or pull on their wellies because those
sorts of things are building their stickability and you know you don't
always get things right the first time you've got to keep at it. So it's
I've done a whole host of tips that are very practical I think for parents on my
blog this morning. We're going to talk about those we're going to come to all
of it but before we move on to sort of practical I think for parents on my blog this morning. We're going to talk about those, we're going to come to all of it, but before we move on
to sort of practical tips about what parents should and shouldn't be doing, or should be
doing, is there anything, is there no such thing as shouldn't, or maybe there is, I don't
know, you're the experts. Is school the right place to be tackling this? Laverne just mentioned
there that some schools are already doing it and teachers are already noticing, and
quite rightly they should be, but is it the right place? Should they have more of a
play? Of course as a former deputy head and head of PSHE in a school for many
years schools of course some schools are doing a fantastic job at that but
teachers are being asked to do more and more and more I think really but I think
teaching these basics starts in the home, doesn't it?
As I mentioned from toddlers onwards, you model and talk about having another go or
trying a, you know, and you don't praise them for the, you know, you praise them for the
effort, not the outcome. So all of this mindset comes really first of all from parents, but
parents and schools need to work together and they
often do. But I think it's not just one or the other, it's both.
So Laverne, how do parents do it right?
Well I think Sue's absolutely right. I think it's the sort of bread and butter of parenting.
But I think when we're thinking about building resilient children, there's something about
noticing as a parent when things aren't where you'd want them to be and helping a child to sort of tackle that. I mean
this is, in a way it's nothing new, but it's the building blocks of how are we
as parents using our support mechanisms around us to help us, because this takes
time and actually takes confidence and I think often parents lose their
confidence because they feel they're not doing it in the right way
Well, they look over their shoulders and think that somebody else is doing it better than them
You are the only person that can be in a relationship with your child and know what they need and also know how you want to
Raise them. I think the the way in which this meshes with schools is that schools then have your child for six hours a day
So you want to be in a relationship with them and you want to be thinking with school about how you've
prepared your child for some of the very real challenges that they're going to come across.
Not feeling so happy on a particular day, you know, not getting things right, however
that looks at school. But parents and schools, I think, do work together. I agree with Sue,
there's a sort of building blocks that parents put in but once they're in school
It's about a joint effort really what if the parents don't have the building blocks in the first place
What if they're feeling all the anxiety and they don't feel gritty or resilient or tenacious themselves?
Well, and therein lies a real dilemma because you know
I think we imagine that as a parents things are going to come naturally
But I'm very much in the school of thought that actually we've got to give ourselves a little bit of a
break here. I think most parents are trying very very hard to get things as
right as they can do and when things go wrong the parents that I
encounter and it's not just that I'm encountering them in the clinic
setting are relying on the resources around them.
Sometimes parents are quite isolated but often picking up the phone to a friend and saying I don't think I got something
right today, can you help me think this through, is a really valuable resource.
We have to be a bit kinder to ourselves I think and know that actually this isn't
something that comes naturally to everybody, it is work that we've all
got to be doing. Sue, what's going wrong here? Have we set up a
society that makes things too easy for children? I'm just thinking of all the conversations you
over here where people say, you know, it was very different when we were growing up and all the
stuff that pops up on my social media about Generation X compared to Generation Z. Is it
that the world is so much, we've just made it too easy for children or is it that the world is so much, we've just made it too easy for children, or is it that the world is too challenging right now?
I think a lot, I've noticed over the last 25 years I've been doing this, I think a lot
of parents want to be their kids friend, not their parents, so they don't like saying no
to them, or you know, keeping at things with them.
They helicopter parenting has been a thing that has developed where they rush in to rescue,
rather than let a child sort of struggle a bit. helicopter parenting has been a thing that has developed where they rush in to rescue
rather than let a child sort of struggle a bit. Now I'm not talking about leaving a child struggling for ages but you know struggle with your zip, struggle doing the jigsaw, struggle with that
homework that you've got, you know keep going when things get a bit tough that's the difference and
I am mindful and I don't hopefully sound like an old fuddy-duddy, but you know,
my mum or my grandparents would have found this rather, you know, how extraordinary that
people are not just getting on with it. But I always talk about it as failing forward.
We all make mistakes, we all get things wrong, we all need to kind of get back up and have
another go, no matter how old we are. So we need to model that and teach children that they struggle a little bit sometimes in life because it's not easy and it's not
always straightforward. But we do them a disservice if we rush in to rescue them, I think.
You're not coming across as a fuddy-duddy. Wise, I would say, Sue. What about you, LaVanne?
What do you think you were nodding?
I am because I think that actually, you know, there's a real pull to rescue.
And I think it's wrapped up in an emotional connection
that you can have with your child, where you think, Oh, actually,
if I just do that last bit of the lace, then we can get going.
But actually stepping back and having the confidence to know
that actually you saying, go on, keep going.
Gosh, didn't you do that? Well, is the making of, you know,
I can overcome the
challenges that are there? That's a tiny challenge. Much more difficult if you're sitting with
a teenager who's had a really difficult day at school and fallen out with friends and
you want to sort of rescue that situation. You've then got to give the time and appreciate
that actually you might not have the answers but actually giving a space for your child
to think about how terrible they feel and you saying,
you know what, it's really great that you can think with me about this, is what we want. So the rescue
sort of
way of thinking that that's going to cause, you know, get something out of it very quickly is not the way we want to do it.
We want people to have confidence, to sit back just a little bit, but be present.
Okay, well, I think we should help them because we've got lots of messages coming through,
I will read some of them out in a moment but Sue, you talk, Laverne just mentioned teenagers there,
let's stick with the teenagers, lots of them facing exams at the minute, GCSEs, A levels,
how do parents who themselves might not feel very gritty teach their children to get through these
real, real world big
pressures like exams, what the practical things that can be done and at
the same time they might be falling out with their friends and they might have
you know telephones and all the rest of it, what practical things can be done?
Well you break things down into bite-sized steps really because what
happens is people get totally overwhelmed and I think if you go
alongside them instead of rescuing them,
so ask them questions, what are you struggling with, is there anything I can help you with,
what can we do together, those sorts of language words and things, I think those sort of scripts
help children feel not abandoned but not necessarily rescued so they don't have to try.
And it is more complicated with smartphones.
Let's face it, I have a whole campaign about delaying those with kids and smartphones and social media, etc.
It is complicated, but you know, it is about teaching children by talking to them, not at them,
listening to them and supporting them.
And as I said, going along with them that we actually
eventually it's not one size fits all not one instant moment is it going to work but
it's a mindset it's a growth mindset that you you know you help your children not disable
them by rescuing them I think.
I'm going to read out a couple of these messages I think you'll find them interesting as well
Annie says I think we as parents want to be and be seen
to be our children's best friend. As good parents, we're not always going to be liked
by our children and our rules can make us unpopular and that's okay. Our role is to
be a parent, our children can make other friends. Simon says, you can't teach grit but you can
create an environment in which it will grow. Resilience is built on a sense of safety.
And Charlotte, who's a primary school teacher, says,
we're living in a world where so many parents
coddle their children too much.
They don't like saying no to them
and often cave in to have an easy life.
If their children are told off at school,
the parents instantly attack the teachers,
in brackets verbally, showing the children
that they're never wrong and can never be told off,
putting them on a pedestal like this is not preparing them
for the world. 84844. What do you think about those, Laverne?
Well, gosh, they're complex, aren't they? I think in some ways they really
move to the sort of protect model, you know, sort of getting in there quickly,
the rescuing that we've talked about, you know, if your child gets told off at
school, you know, you're straight in there. Rather than taking a bit of a
beat and thinking, actually what's gone on here? you know, you're straight in there. Rather than taking a bit of a beat and thinking, actually, what's gone on here?
You know, maybe my child is fallible, we would like to think, you know, we could
have that point of view and something's gone wrong.
And actually stepping back is quite difficult, I think, for parents because
the instinct is to protect, is to look after. And what I would say is,
you know, this idea of being your child's friend, yes, I think
there can be a real muddle in a relationship.
I mean, lots of young people that I've encountered in my work, you know, quite astonishingly
have said, you know, if I'd met my parents at school, they wouldn't be my best friend,
you know, because they have a way of being able to see their difference.
And I think what Sue's saying about, you know, where we are, because I'm sure there are a
lot of parents at the moment who are having to think about exams, you know, where we are, because I'm sure there are a lot of parents at the moment
who are having to think about exams.
You know, I absolutely agree.
You're alongside your child.
You're basically saying, help is available.
What you're not doing is, I think this is such a trap,
you know, putting your own anxieties into the mix
and say, you've got to do your work,
you've got to do this in my time.
We all do it, but I think if there could be a bit of a reset today, you know, for anybody listening to think well
actually it's not about my anxieties. Yes I do have those anxieties but I've got to
find somebody else to talk to about those. I've got to be there for my child
and say help's available. I spoke to a colleague yesterday who said you know
this time of the year when exams are really at the forefront, she's there with food, you
know, with snacks, with refreshments, looking after all those bits that a child doesn't
want to be distracted by.
Sue, how much of all of this, talking about building grit and resilience and this entire
conversation, come down to parents not knowing how to discipline their children? And even
the word discipline might get some people's backs up. Or is that just, isn't the word too difficult
for many to consider?
Yes, because when people hear the word discipline,
they think punishment, and it should be about consequences,
and it should be about better choices.
It's, you know, language matters in all of this.
It's not about yelling and smacking or getting angry.
It's about guiding, nurturing and encouraging.
And I think praising, you know, a child's effort, rather than their success means loads
to them. And everybody goes through that dip, don't they? I mean, I remember when I was
learning to play the piano, I just thought, Oh, I don't like this. I'm not doing very
well. I've plateaued. So that's the same with golfers or anybody in sport or anything like that.
And so what you do then is you sort of push through. And once you sort of push through,
you start to feel a sense of your own personal satisfaction as well. And you do get a bit
better at things. And one of the magic words, I think, that I'm always using with parents
I work with is to say to their kids about you haven't managed to do that yet. Because learning your times tables, you haven't mastered, you know, your eight
times table yet.
But if we practice and we do it together or you do it, you know, with the school
and we all work together, you will master your eight times table or the piano or
the violin or whatever you're trying to achieve.
So I think that's an important aspect of it, too, because I think you have to have
short term, medium term and-term sort of goals and that will then keep you focused on where
you're trying to get to. Thank you both very much and I just want to end by this there's lots of
your messages coming through, keep them coming through, but Liz has sent in a very interesting
message she says and actually Laverne I'll come back to you on this before we move on.
The concept of building grit is a very ableist.
I say this as a mum to two autistic children
who are by nature very sensitive.
I mean, I think what we don't want to do
is create another thing for children to fail at.
I like the idea of developing resilience.
Let's stick with that because that's about basing things,
knowing that you face challenges, thinking that you'll never get through it and then being reminded by
other people and reminding yourself that actually you did survive something. And I really agree
with Sue that hope is what we've got to have. We've got to have a hopeful way of thinking
that we can go through things, either on our own with or with the help of other people.
Thank you both for joining me. Sue Atkins, parenting coach and author of Parenting Made
Easy and child psychologist Laverne Antrobus. 84844, keep coming through.
Onto my next item now. We're currently hearing different perspectives this week on the Supreme
Court ruling last month that the terms woman and sex in the 2010 Equality Act refer to a biological
woman and biological sex. The judgment has implications for many organisations. The Equality
and Human Rights Commission has issued interim guidance, for example, in workplaces and services
that are open to the public. Trans women, those people with gender recognition certificates
and those without, shouldn't use women's facilities such as toilets or changing rooms. We're looking at the practical dilemmas
this ruling creates for organisations, businesses and individuals. On Monday we heard from the
barrister Robin Moira White, a trans woman and activist who specialises in taking discrimination
cases. On Wednesday it was the turn of Sex Matters, one of only four organisations allowed
to present arguments and evidence in the appeal. They're called interveners in this instance.
Another of those intervener organisations was Amnesty International UK and its CEO is
Sacha Deshmukh who joins me now in the studio. Welcome Sacha. It's been a month since the
ruling so I think we should start by finding out what your members have been telling you about the impact of this hearing.
Thanks so much for having me on the programme, Anita.
We have been hearing from a number of people, trans people, who sadly, and this has been
a long-standing issue in society in the UK and around the world, are very fearful, facing
discrimination, facing harassment.
That was one of the reasons why Amnesty International put evidence in front of the Supreme Court.
We work on human rights all around the world. We believe in everyone's right to privacy,
a family life, to be protected from discrimination and wanted to make sure that the Supreme Court
heard those arguments. I think the judgment in this case was a long judgment, it was about 30
pages or so, lots of detail and the Court was quite precise on what it was making a judgment on
and indeed things that it also wanted to see like discrimination against trans people, absolutely not
allowed in the law. Perhaps some people are kind of rushing to judgment as to what exactly the
judgment means, how to implement it and I'd heard some caution because I think that's causing a lot of fear, a lot
of anxiety and even a sense of threat for a lot of trans people at the moment.
What have they been saying to you?
Well sometimes we're hearing things actually that's important to recognise are really important
and good. So for example we've heard recently from a number of organisations that run refuges
for people who have been affected by domestic violence and we should remember trans people
sadly are very affected by domestic violence as of course are other women.
And those people have said, we know how to run our services, we know how to protect people
in those services, we know how to safeguard, we do that for all individuals from other
individuals, those are protected before this judgement. They still are now. Nothing changes.
We're open for trans people. That is really important and it's very welcome that we're hearing that.
We're also hearing people, trans people saying things like, I don't know whether I can go to the gym anymore.
I'm afraid even to leave my home because actually people are using the judgment
perhaps as an excuse to abuse me on the street,
which of course is not what the Supreme Court
said should happen.
So that sort of implication from the judgment,
I think now we really need to see some calm
and emphasis on the protection of trans people,
which the law very clearly says.
You linked to Stonewall on your website and you say that you're proud to work
with them and other organizations such as mermaids and gendered intelligence but
according to Aqua Reindorf who's a commissioner at the Equality and Human
Rights Commission, no trans rights organizations applied to be interveners.
Were you surprised by that?
Well we obviously applied to be an intervener
ourselves because we've got a great deal of human rights expertise and I you know I was a little bit surprised
that the Supreme Court didn't hear from any trans people themselves in in making
the judgment but if you do read that judgment I think what's also really
important now it's been made is in its length those parts where the Supreme
Court talked about the importance of protection
of trans people from discrimination, from harassment, that being very, very clear in
the law. So that's, I suppose, what I'm really now hoping that people don't forget in the
debate after the judgment too.
We did invite Stonewall onto the programme to give their reaction to the ruling and to
reflect on its implications, but they declined. and on what you were just saying the former High Court Judge Victoria McLeod and
academic and activist Stephen Whittle both of whom are trans applied as
individuals to be heard and were turned down. Aqua Rindorf who I just mentioned
is one of the EHRC's commissioners said the Supreme Court does not hear evidence
about lived experience it considers legal arguments thus an individual is
never likely to get permission. We had Helen Joyce from the
organisation Sex Matters on the programme this week and she said,
trans women are men, that's what the Supreme Court confirmed. What's your
response to that? Well again I think if you actually read the judgment, 30 pages,
it's got points in that that really very clearly say that that's not an accurate
representation of what the judgment said. The Supreme Court made a judgment on the definition of the words women and indeed then by
implication men in the Equality Act in a very specific piece of legislation but the Supreme Court
itself in its judgment made very very clear that it was not saying that what was being litigated was the meaning of gender in wider society.
And so, for example, anyone listening who's worried that if they're in their
workplace and someone would come to them and not call them by the pronouns that
they've asked and think that the judgment has removed that protection,
that's absolutely not true. And that sort of comment, not just maybe what
happened on the show earlier in this week,. And that sort of comment, not just maybe what happened on the show
earlier in this week, but maybe that kind of misunderstanding of what the judgment is saying,
I think, I think is very dangerous. The law is very clear about those protections, including,
for example, Anita, I believe that I should call you by the pronouns that you would like,
you're protected here in your workplace. The law, very importantly, protects you on that. But just perhaps more broadly in this debate, I believe that that's
polite and kind and respects your humanity. And so we don't need the law to also perhaps
remind all of us that we should treat each other with that kind of respect too.
Isn't Helen just reflecting what the judgment has stated that the word women means biological
women?
The judgment stated that in relation to that word in the Equality Act, but the Supreme
Court was very, very clear to say that it wasn't litigating on the broader question
of gender identity in society.
So I think that for someone to say that the judgment and what it said about that specific
word in the Act has that implication more broadly, maybe their point of view of what
they would like, but I don't think it's actually an accurate representation of the judgment.
You believe this is a human rights issue for trans people, that's why Amnesty International
UK got involved, but others would say that women's rights are also human rights and if
the two sets of rights can't be balanced, then the ruling means women's sex-based rights
should now be prioritised. What's your view on that?
Well, women's rights are human rights. Human rights are universal. All people have human
rights. All of us deserve the rights to privacy, family, life, protection from discrimination
and indeed wider rights which are human rights as well such as access to adequate social
security, health care, etc. It's often the case in history that people who have a particular point of view try and
say that one person, one group set of rights can only be protected at the expense of others.
That's not what we believe.
And I think, again, I just sort of remind people the levels of persecution, violence,
discrimination faced by trans people, less than 1% of society, but even perhaps the level
of attention and noise and debate has shown how much that particular community is being
targeted. I would just remind people that the protection of everyone's human rights
does not require one group's human rights not to be respected and certainly now it
absolutely the law is clear and indeed any reasonable interpretation of human
rights is clear trans people cannot be discriminated against and they certainly
can't be discriminated against because that's allegedly protecting someone
else's human rights. The interim guidance from the Equality and Human Rights
Commission states that in workplaces and services that are open to the public, trans women or biological men should not be
permitted to use the women's facilities and trans men or biological women should
not be permitted to use the men's facilities and this will mean that they
no longer single sex facilities and must be open to all users of the opposite sex.
However, where facilities are available to both men and women, trans people
should not be put in a position where there are no facilities
for them to use. What's your advice to trans women? What should they do?
Well, I think one thing to remember in relation to that interim guidance, it's an excellent
question that you ask. That guidance was put out by the Equality and Human Rights Commission
very quickly. It's actually not statutory, that particular guidance, by the Equality and Human Rights Commission very quickly. It's actually not
statutory, that particular guidance, and the Equality and Human Rights Commission is consulting
and indeed had to extend its consultation from perhaps some of its initial plans because
it's really important that it takes into account those aspects of the law the Supreme Court
emphasised on the lack of discrimination. I think my advice, not just to trans people
but perhaps more broadly service
providers etc is not to rush to judgment on what the court case says and indeed that Supreme Court
that equality commission guidance that will come after the consultation will be important to see.
The law continues to say that actually the bar to excluding people is a high one has to be proportionate has to be
Legitimate that's perhaps why we've seen for example those organizations running refuges saying no
We absolutely can continue to serve serve people so I think a lot of people who might be rushing to say
trans people should be excluded as
Organizations are actually putting themselves at risk of being challenged in the law on
discrimination. Well, they're only following what the interim guidance is telling them.
I think again the interim guidance is not statutory.
So you're telling them they shouldn't follow it?
Well, I think that it's going to be really important to see how the Equality and Human Rights Commission
takes into account everything that is in the consultation and
produces quality guidance that does represent those anti-discrimination points. Commission takes into account everything that is in the consultation and produces
quality guidance that does represent those anti-discrimination points. What I
would certainly advise any organisation to do and make sure they're doing is
they continue to respect the law on the on protecting trans people from
discrimination or not having access to services because that's just important
for any organisation to do.
Sasha, when there's such diametrically opposed interpretations of the same
ruling, what are people and organisations supposed to think and do?
It's a really excellent question and of course the law is a complex
thing sometimes for anyone to absorb. I think my advice would always be to any of us, including
ourselves, a judgment that's this long, 30 pages, with this much detail in it,
I think a critical thing for us all not to do is to rush to judgment or perhaps
if people have a particular point of view on the judgment to make a statement
or an implication beyond that that the judgment makes.
We now all need to have things like high quality guidance that's properly taken into account,
consultation, including of course with trans people, to ensure that the protection from harassment,
discrimination that's there within the law continues to be respected.
And perhaps people who are rushing to say, it definitely means this or it definitely means that I think
that's a difficult thing for anyone to do with any real confidence from any
judgment let alone one this complex.
I want to use a real-world concrete example if I may.
We know a group of female nurses in Darlington are currently taking their
trust to tribunal for allowing a women to use their single-sex
changing facilities under a policy of transitioning in the workplace. Why do you believe trans
women should be in these spaces?
I don't know the specifics of the changing facilities in that case, but even to use that
particular example that you said, for example, if changing facilities or any other kind of facilities
are a space with safeguarding, with the right protections for people, regardless of which
is any other person that's coming in that space, that's what anyone deserves from any
kind of space. I think what I would be reminding people of is this point about the proportionate,
legitimate need for the exclusion of anyone from any particular service or facility. So would be reminding people of is this point about the proportionate legitimate
need for the exclusion of anyone from any particular service or facility. So
again places that may have a large throughput of people, places where
actually any facility is a private space for changing or anything else.
What would be the argument for the exclusion of anyone from that? There's
obviously in any space, any public space or any private space that any of us are in,
we should be protected from any kind of threat or any danger.
Perhaps again, in this big debate that's happened about 1% of people within society who are trans,
we shouldn't forget that 80% of the violence targeted at women,
much, much too high overall levels of violence,
but 80% of that is from partners, ex-partners or friends,
the overwhelming, overwhelming amount of which,
sadly and tragically, is from cis men,
men who identify as men.
So that's the point that I would make
about all facility services.
We have an obligation, any of us running organisations including public
organisations, private companies etc, to make sure those services are provided to
trans people who cannot be excluded from them and we need to take that into
account in the way that those services are designed and provided and that has
not been affected or changed by this judgment. If anything the Supreme Court reminded us of it.
But what about the privacy of biological women?
Privacy is something that all people deserve. Privacy is a right for any of us to have.
I'm not sure why I can quite see the argument that the privacy that any individual deserves in their own life
is any more or less required versus anyone from any other different background. I can't
quite see the argument myself as to why the exclusion of some people from services, from
facilities is required for any of us, whichever identity that we we may have to have the privacy that's all right.
Sasha Deshmukh, thank you very much for coming in to speak to me this morning from Amnesty International UK.
On Monday, Nula will be hearing from the LGB Alliance who also submitted evidence to the Supreme Court in this case.
And if you missed our previous interviews with the barrister and trans woman Robin Moira White
and Sex Matters Director of Advocacy Helen Joyce.
You can catch up on BBC Sounds by listening to the 12th and 14th of May episodes of Woman's
Hour.
That text number once again 84844.
The Dear Daughter podcast received some fantastic letters from our listeners recently.
I just had a lot of emotion and I had to put it somewhere.
Together we're creating a handbook to life for our children.
Feelings that you don't know how to express verbally, write it down.
Enjoy the life you have. No one can tell you what tomorrow will bring.
Dear Daughter from the BBC World Service. Listen now wherever you get tomorrow will bring. Dear daughter from the BBC World Service,
listen now wherever you get your BBC podcasts.
Now, at the age of 20, Samantha Ipema
was coming to the end of her university studies
when a chance accident resulted
in a life-changing discovery.
A scan revealed that she had a brain aneurysm and she
was told she'd be needing surgery in less than a month and that her life expectancy could be a lot
shorter. Samantha, an actor, decided to put pen to paper and write a play about her experience.
It's called Dear Annie, I Hate You and after a successful run at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival,
it's currently on at Riverside Studios here in London. Joining me now are neurologist Dr. Faye Baggetti and Samantha.
Welcome both of you. Samantha, give us some context about all of this. Where were you
in life when this first happened to you when you were 20 years old? Hmm. I was a bumbling 20-year-old, just kind of in college, quite directionless at the
time, to be honest, and didn't really know what I wanted to do in life and was kind of
stalling with that decision. And was just playing soccer and enjoying my life as much
as I could and avoiding growing up and then got the diagnosis and yeah everything changed. How did you get it? I was just playing
soccer with a bunch of my friends one day and had gotten hit in the head and
I never go in for those kind of things and had been a few days and I decided I
just had some sort of nagging voice in my head telling me to go in and then I
got the scan and found out a few days later that I was diagnosed.
And what does that do to a 20 year old who's living her life about to go on spring break?
Right, right. Yes, my first question when they told me I was gonna have to get brain surgery in three weeks time was
can I still go on spring break?
Big holiday in America, big teen, teen holiday.
Yes, it's the pinnacle of your 20s when you're in university and everything.
And, but yeah, it thrust my life upside down.
It changed, it changed the entire trajectory of my life.
Yeah.
A key part of the play is the impact that this had on your friendships.
Tell us more about that.
Yeah.
In this iteration, we really focus on that.
And I think what is the incredible thing that happens is that you're going through this
immense amount of change and everyone else is just staying 20 and staying the same.
So your world shifted, but there's necessarily not hasn't necessarily shifted.
So I think I think that was the even more I mean, there were so many physical things like learning
how to walk and talk and do all of those things again, but it was really the emotional side
of losing all of those friendships and not for anyone's fault necessarily.
It was just that I was going through a vast change and they didn't have to, you know,
and no one knew how to cope with it.
Oh Samantha, it's a sucker punch. We've just been talking this morning about how we teach young
people and teenagers resilience and grit and one of the things we all know that happens during our
school years that kind of really tests us is friendships, falling out with people and how
devastating those things can be. And you're going through this experience,
being diagnosed with an aneurysm,
having to rethink your entire life and all of it.
How did you build, what did that do for you
in terms of resilience and what did that do
to your personality?
Oh my gosh, so much.
To touch quickly on what you just said though,
there's a bit in the play where I'm sure
our neuroscientist friend here could speak more on this,
but I talk about how being cool and the desire to fit in isn't, it's not just a desire, it's actually a neurobiological
reward system that says, you know, good job, you're staying alive. So it really was the
pinnacle of, I mean, kind of the darkest part of the play was a conversation I had with
my dad that's very real. When I was in the hospital where I just kind of said I don't, I don't really, I had made it out of the surgery and I just didn't really want to
continue to be here anymore because I knew the life I was going back to was gone and I didn't
understand how to pick up the pieces from there. But I was also saying this yesterday to someone
saying this yesterday to someone that truly it gave me myself. And it's hard for me to not be grateful for that time in my life because I don't think
I would have ever been forced to discover myself.
I don't think I would have ever gone into the arts even though it was what I always
dreamed of, what I felt like I was made for.
And it made me really build new relationships in a different way than I
never had before and and and yeah find new things to value in in in the world
and in relationships so yeah I I it changed who I was completely and
everyone in my life who's still in it from that time will say that as well
incredible I'm Fay and we're gonna come to you in a moment because we do have
neurologists ready to talk to us about aneurysms and you can talk to each other.
But before we do, it did change your life.
You decided to write about it.
I must say you are a very talented, I can't believe you weren't always going to go into
the arts because you're very talented on stage.
You've a real presence.
Please could you read something from the play for us?
Yes, I would love to.
I'll read, this is my favorite little bit of the play, and I think sums it up well.
I think if you look carefully in these moments, you can actually see the walls starting to
crumble and the pillars of your old life, your old reality starting to flake apart.
I actually think that there's something beautiful about it.
Terrible.
Awful.
But beautiful.
Because in these moments, nothing is ever clearer.
What's ahead of you.
Everything that's behind you.
And you, in the middle of it, with a choice to make.
Very powerful.
In the play, you choose to humanize your aneurysm.
You call her Annie.
Why?
Several reasons.
At the time, I thought I was just sort of being clever and it was a coping mechanism that I was using.
A way to kind of not have to use the word aneurysm because that felt very serious and very intense.
And when you're dealing with life and death decisions at 20, you kind of want to find ways to make it not as big.
So Annie was an easy way to be able to try to talk to people about it
in a place that no one really wanted to talk about it because they were all scared. And
then I had started developing this piece, and to be honest, I just started developing
the piece as an easy A on an assignment in drama school because I figured no one could
get me a bad grade for doing it about my brain aneurysm. But I'd called her Annie and then
I was scrolling a Reddit feed after an appointment one day to kind of get some information from
other brain aneurysm survivors and every single one of the people on that feed that had been
diagnosed with an aneurysm called them Annie. And they all seemed like they had their own
personality traits. And we actually did a Q&A the other day after the show with a neurosurgeon
and the way he talked about each of the aneurysms
he operates on, it was as if they each had
their own sort of personality traits.
So yeah, that's kind of where it came from.
I'm gonna bring Faye in here.
Morning Faye, welcome to the program.
I know you've been listening along to Samantha.
Can you give us a bit much more information
about all of this?
I know that brain aneurysms are more common in women than men, for starters, but
how common are they to be found in someone so young?
Yes, I mean what a powerful story. They are more common in women than men. I
think firstly it's important to tell people what aneurysms are because many people are
not aware. So we have blood vessels that supply our
brain and what happens is they usually weaken at one part and if you think of a blood vessel like
a tube and one wall has weakened, they tend to pop out and they look a little bit like a tiny
balloon. Some people will describe them like a berry, so sometimes they're called berry aneurysms
and the danger of having that little balloon
is that it expands and it can either compress nerves
in the brain or sometimes it can rupture
and you can get blood around the lining of the brain,
which is quite a serious thing to happen.
What are some of the symptoms
that people should look out for?
When should you seek help?
The biggest symptom that people get is headache
and it's a really specific type of headache.
We call it a thunderclap headache and the features of it is that it goes from zero to the maximum
severity and it can be severe but some people we all have different pain tolerances so some people
will not describe it as very severe but it can go from zero to having a headache within one minute
because you know people have all sorts of headachesraines, but they typically come on much slower than that over the course of sort of one minute, half an hour, an
hour. You have a headache that's worsening, but in that situation you are fine. And then a minute
later you have a really severe headache. Is it treatable? The thing to do... Sorry, yes, gone.
The thing to do when that happens is to actually come to A&E. I know we need to use our emergency
services wisely, but that is an emergency. And actually, if we see people within six hours, then our scans
for those aneurysms and the subarachnoid hemorrhage that has happened are much more sensitive. So it's
important to come quickly. Is it treatable? It is treatable. Yes. So it depends. There are various
characteristics, as we said, it depends on the size and the location and the two key things is whether the aneurysm has burst or it hasn't burst.
If it has burst and you now have a hemorrhage then you need to come into hospital.
There are various consequences that can happen but we're really good at keeping on top of
them, treating them, trying to do the best that we can for
every single patient.
Do we know why they're more common in women?
Yes, that is actually a really active line of research and they're more common in women
but actually at a later age. It tends to be after the menopause and we think there might
be a protective role of estrogen in keeping the blood vessels flexible. And after menopause, we get quite a rapid estrogen drop. And we do tend to see more aneurysms in women over the age of 40. So
it is slightly unusual to have an aneurysm so young, but it's not unheard of. I have
seen patients, unfortunately, that are hit with these big things at a very young age.
You're nodding away, Samantha. You've done all the research, you know all of all of this.
Yes, yes, it's been it's been a big part of my life.
You also feature your family in the play, because it's a multimedia play, and you particularly
talk you talk about your brother in particular who sounds incredible, Tell us about him. Yeah, he's my best friend. He's the best. He has Down syndrome and he's adopted from
South Korea, joined my life when I was three and he was four. And yeah, he's kind of the
ethos of the whole piece. There's a big line in it of wanting to be a
superhero for him and kind of setting up that that was what we grew up enjoying
and loving about each other and playing in superhero battles and all of these
things together and that she tries to be a superhero throughout the whole
thing until eventually she can't be and then kind of realizes that it wasn't
ever the things that made her, you know know super that that made him think that it was just that she
was the way she was and that she is who she is. It's beautiful and and how are
you? What's your relationship with Annie like now? Yeah it's great if you come
see the play you'll kind of get an insight into where I'm at with it now
but we have a lovely relationship I think of Annie as the voice in my head.
So sometimes she's the annoying companion
that you can't get rid of,
and sometimes she's your best friend.
So, yeah.
Thank you so much for taking the time
to come and speak to us, actor Samantha Ipema,
and neurologist Dr. Faye Baggetti.
And you can watch Sam's play,
Dear Annie, I Hate You, at Riverside Studios in London
until the 1st of June.
And I know after just that little snippet you gave us, Samantha, people will want to
come and hear more because that was just very talented.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for having me.
84844 is the text number.
Now to my next guest, the founder of Everyday Sexism project, Laura Bates.
In her latest book, The New Age of Sexism,
Laura writes about how the AI revolution is reinventing misogyny, how existing forms of
discrimination are being enforced and even exaggerated by AI, for example, with the rise
of AI girlfriends and deep fake. Some of the areas that we'll be talking about are disturbing.
Laura, welcome.
Thank you.
What's the book about this time? We are standing on the edge of a precipice where our society is about to be transformed in almost
unimaginable ways by AI, by emerging technologies. The problem is that when people worry about this,
they're often thinking about potential dystopian future threats, you know, robots taking over the
world. What people aren't necessarily aware of is the extent to which some of these forms of technology are already affecting our day-to-day lives and risk really re-encoding the hatred
of yesterday into the foundations of tomorrow.
Where do you even begin when you set out to write a book like this? What areas have you
covered?
I've looked at advances in technology around robotics, so particularly around the use of sex robots, the generative AI that's being used, not just to create outbound
content that we know is discriminatory, but also in apps like AI girlfriends,
the kind of deep fake technology that's having a devastating impact on the lives
of women and particularly young girls around the world. But actually also
other things that you don't necessarily
have to opt into. All of those things people think, well, I'll just stay out of those spaces
or I won't be going online. I won't go into the metaverse. But what people don't realize
is that already if you're applying for a loan, global financial services companies are using
algorithms to determine credit scores that we know actively discriminate against women.
40% of UK companies are already using AI in their recruitment processes that we know actively discriminate against women. 40% of UK companies are already using AI in
their recruitment processes that we know actively weeds out and discriminates against the CVs
of women.
Because?
Because really what a lot of these AI particularly are designed to do is to really ingest vast
amounts of data. They train themselves on that data and then they try to guess the best
possible answer for their users. So if you're looking at a big company and you say, you've got 3000 applications
for this job, we'll whittle them down and tell you the 50 people best suited to your
company to interview. It sounds great. But if you're doing that and you're looking at
who's been successful before in getting jobs at that company, in a situation where we know
there are almost three times as many men named John running FTSE 100 companies as all the women put together.
Inevitably, you're going to be looking at a talent pool where you will assume that
perhaps privately educated white men are the best suited CVs to be looking at.
And even if you turn off gender, even if you make them race blind, if they can't
see these categories, they'll discriminate by proxy.
So they'll look for a word like netball in your CV, for example.
So they're just going with what's out there in society already and running with it. Can
we go through some of the things that you've mentioned and break them down a little bit?
There is the more obviously upsetting elements like deepfake. What's the issue for women
and minorities? Who is doing this and who's at risk?
This is a huge impact, particularly for women. When we hear deep fake technology hitting the
mainstream news, quite often people are talking about the threat to democracy of potential
disinformation. But the reality is that actually 96% of all deep fake videos are pornographic and
99% of those are of women. So already there are teenage girls across this
country and around the world whose male peers at school, and we're seeing this from the
age of about 11 or 12, can easily download a free app, go to a free website, put in a
picture of a girl or even a female teacher, quite commonly, fully clothed that they screen
grab from the internet or from anywhere anywhere and it will immediately generate images and
videos that are extreme pornographic and incredibly realistic.
And it's children that are actually doing it, creating the deepfakes because they've
got access to the technology.
Absolutely and we're seeing girls who are not feeling able to leave the house, who are
developing PTSD, who are not able to go to school. It's really important for people to
recognise that while the images aren't real, the impact absolutely is.
And as part of your research, you tried to create a deep fake of yourself. How easy was
it?
Absolutely simple. I mean, it's important to say that this was something I'd already
experienced. Men had already sent me deep fakes, pornography of me, showing themselves,
abusing and forcing themselves on me sexually as a means of
power and control and what I wanted to demonstrate in the book was just how
easily accessible, just how easy it is for anyone of any age to do that at the
click of a button and this isn't about sex, it's not about prudishness. When
those men sent me those images the effect was immense and it was about
shutting me up, it was about power and control. And Laura, you are someone who's been talking about sexism for a long time. You're an incredibly
empowered woman. You're very outspoken. You speak for a generation. And when you received
those pornographic images of yourself, what was the impact of seeing that? And they were
sent anonymously, weren't they?
They were. I mean, it made me feel physically sick. Your brain races. You start thinking,
who else has seen this? What websites is it on? Is it going to get to my parents? Is it
going to be on social media? You start wondering who it could have been, who's made it? Is
it someone you know? Is this a form of revenge? Is it somebody out there that's close to you
in your social group? How long is this going to last? Will you be able to get it taken
down? Will there be any action? You spiral into a form of panic and the worst part for me was the idea that
at some future point, my potential future children might search for me online and this
could be the thing that outlives me. This could last longer than I do. It's really hard
to explain and if that was the extent of the impact on me. Think about the 11 and 12 year old girls who
are dealing with this stuff in schools. It's just devastating. Then you also
looked into the issue and you mentioned at the top AI girlfriends. She's quite
shocking. I think for some of our listeners they won't have ever heard of
that phrase. Yes. The female founder of Replica, which is a digital AI companion,
had a wholesome intention.
They wanted to keep alive the spirit of a dead friend.
Go on, you can explain, but it's evolved into something completely different.
Yes, I mean, Replica is just one example.
There are hundreds of these apps and they are promoted and marketed as kind of, you
know, positive AI companions who can keep you company, stay for loneliness, even teach
you relationship skills.
But that completely belies the reality, which is that the vast majority of these companies are giving men
the opportunity to create a very young hypersexualized woman. They can customize her, her appearance,
her personality, her name. She will be eternally available to them in their pockets. It's a
way to present hypersexualized women as an object for men to own, to abuse, they will jump into
rape scenarios, I must say with the exception of Replica which was the only app which told
me to stop when I tried to do that, but all of the others were perfectly willing not just
to entertain abusive scenarios but to encourage them. And this is being promoted to a vast
extent. People have never heard of these apps, but just in the last year alone just on the Google Android Play Store alone they were downloaded a hundred
million times. I'm just going to read out a couple of statements. A government
spokesperson for the Department of Science Innovation and Technology said
women should feel safe both in the on offline and online world under the
Online Safety Act social media platforms regardless of their size must take
action to protect users from illegal material including extreme sexual
violence and an Ofcom spokesperson said no woman should have to face the trauma
of a deep fake intimate image being shared without her consent whose
responsibility is this? Well I think that there are a number of different pressure
points in terms of responsibility what I'd most like to see is regulation of
tech firms there is so much pressure at the moment, I think, on schools and on parents. The reality is these apps should not be
readily freely available at the click of a button to children. And that's not just about the apps
themselves, actually. It's also about Google making them so readily available. It's about the app
store. It's about companies like Visa and Stripe and anywhere where people are facilitating payments to these companies. But what that regulation is going to look like in
practice really, really matters from Ofcom because by the end of this year
we're on track to see 8 million new deep fake pornographic images made and
referral links to the sites that host them have increased 2,000%.
So how do we stay ahead of the curve?
We need regulation. We need our government to be brave about saying actually we need
to think about really bold transnational legislation. This isn't about being anti-tech. It's not
about saying don't develop and research AI and use it for the brilliant things it can
do for society. But actually we need to step up and recognise that this is too important
to leave in the hands unchecked of obscenely wealthy tech tycoons who are
using it to catapult men and boys forward and leaving the rest of us behind. It needs
to be developed in a safe and ethical framework so it can truly serve all of us in society
in a safe way.
Can we get AI to help police the internet? Can AI get them to identify content and get
AI to take it down? If AI can do so much, why not get it to do that?
Yes, and there are incredible women working in AI developing tools to do just that.
The problem we have is that women are only 12% of AI researchers globally.
They're only 20% of AI professors and when they apply for funding for projects like that,
we know that venture capital firms give six times as much funding to male-led AI teams.
Okay, well, so all those girls who are sitting there GCSEs and A levels right now,
there you go, get into STEM, get into tech.
Absolutely, we need you.
It's always a pleasure to speak to you.
Thank you so much, Laura, for coming in.
Laura Bates and the new age of sexism is out now.
And if you've been affected by any of the issues raised,
please check out the links on the BBC Action Line website.
Now in reference to our
item earlier on the Supreme Court ruling of what a woman is under the Equality
Act, the Equality and Human Rights Commission would like to clarify that it
has released an interim update, not guidance. Guidance they say will follow.
The update is intended to highlight the main consequences for employers and duty
bearers of the Supreme Court judgment and we've also been talking about how you build resilience and grit in our children.
Diana says, listening to the program, I so wish I had the advice with my own
children, although as a busy working mom, it was often fraught getting kids and
self out of the door on school mornings.
And if I had to help with a zip, so be it.
It's certainly something I will keep in the forefront of my mind now when I
interact with my five-year-old grandchildren. Don't do up their zips. Enjoy your weekend. I'll
be back tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time.
Hello, I'm Manushka Matandodawati, the presenter of Diddy on Trial from BBC Sounds. Sean Diddy
Combs is facing a fight for his freedom as his hugely anticipated trial starts for sex trafficking,
racketeering with conspiracy,
and transportation for prostitution.
He denies all the charges.
I'll be bringing you every twist and turn from the courtroom
with the BBC's correspondents and our expert guests.
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