Woman's Hour - 17/11/2025

Episode Date: November 17, 2025

Women's voices and women's lives - topical conversations to inform, challenge and inspire.

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See holidays differently when you stream the best of British TV with Britbox. Hello, this is Neula McGovern and you're listening to The Woman's Hour

podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Well, as you've been hearing in the news bulletins this morning at Bangladesh's former Prime Minister

Sheikh Hasina has been found guilty of crimes against humanity and sentenced to death. We're going to look at the life of the woman who was once a pro-democracy

icon, who then became an autocrat. also are you starting another week of work or maybe your job hunting this morning well all the cool girls get fired so say two of my guests who were fired and lived not only to tell the tale but also to turn it around to their advantage they now offer advice and a book on how to deal with what can be a devastating experience and they talk about also how it's different for women Oprah winfrey who they spoke to said don't look at it as a setback but as a set-up for the next phase of your life. And I'm wondering, has this happened to you? If you were fired, how did you react? And did you, or were you able to use the crisis as a moment to pivot into something more positive

or fulfilling your stories this morning? You can text the program, the number is 84844 on social media or at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email us through our website. For a WhatsApp message or voice note, the number is 0-3-700-100-444. Also, we have the prolific composer Laura Carpman with us in the Women's Hour studio today. We want to talk about her latest work, the opera Balls. It's about the 1973 Battle of the Sexist tennis match between Billy Jean King and Bobby Riggs. She has, I was reading, a five-year goal for gender parity within the composing industry.

So I also want to hear how that is going. And we'll have our technology editor, Zoe Kleinman, who will tell us why sharing her decision to hold notes while on TV due to potential brain fog sparked a huge response and conversation. That's all coming up. But first, let us turn to Bangladesh's former Prime Minister, Sheikh Hasina, who I mentioned has been found guilty this morning of crimes against humanity and sentenced to death. She's currently living in exile in India, so was tried in her absence by a court in Dhaka. She was Bangladesh's longest serving prime minister who began her political career as a pro-democracy icon, but fled mass protests against her rule in August 24.

Today, she, along with her former Interior Minister and police chief, were found guilty of allowing the use of lethal force against protesters and failing to prevent atrocities against them. The UN say that 1,400 protesters died and she faces the death penalty. Hasina has called the court's decision politically biased and politically motivated. Tvina Gupta is a BBC correspondent. She's been following this story for us. Good morning, Davina.

Good to have you with us. Some people will be very familiar with her, others not at all. How would you describe who Sheikh Hasina is? Well, she is one of South Asia's most dominant political figures. And I've grown up reading about her, her father as well, here in India. And she's the longest serving prime minister,

as you said, of Bangladesh, was at the helm of the nation. for 20 years now. And she's daughter of Bangladesh founding father or father of the nation, Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, who led the country's independence from Pakistan in 1971

and became the first president of the country. So in a way, politics, you could say, is in her blood. And Sheikh Qasina first established her reputation as a student leader at Dhaka University, but then she was forced in exile when her father was assassinated with most of his family members in a military coup in 1975.

At that time, Sheikasina was with her sister in Europe and then she sought India's help for a political asylum. So she came here and she was granted that political asylum in 1975. She stayed here for six years. She forged political ties with many Indian leaders which served her when she became prime minister and went back to Bangladesh to fight elections in the late 90s. And her supporters will credit her for major economic growth, infrastructure expansion, taking Bangladesh out of poverty, building industries around textile.

And her critics, however, would say that she was becoming increasingly authoritarian. There was a suppression of dissent. There were tighter control over the courts. And her critics would also say the last elections that her party fought was boycotted by the opposition because they felt that there was stifling of political. opposition in the country, extremely tight-cripped ruler. By the extremely tight-tripped ruler, that's how they would describe her. And of course, she comes from a family of politicians, as you mentioned there. But the fact she was a woman, how was that viewed in her ascendancy, shall we say, to Prime Minister? Well, if you look at it from Bangladesh's point of view,

they have had two of their very senior political figures who are women. You have Shai Kassina, we've spoken about. Her rival is Khalida Zia. And they've both shaped national politics for more than 30 years in that country. And their rivalry is often described as the Battle of Begham. So when you think about it for that country, it has been women who have been leading from the front and also shaping the democracy and the movement in that country. Calida Zia, go ahead. Now, I'm just saying the Battle of the Begums, as you mentioned there, do you want to explain what that terminology means? Yes, Begams essentially means

madam or this is a word that is used in a Muslim language which translates into madame. So it's battle of madams essentially and that's because it is referred to a Muslim women of high rank and observers have said

that it was a bitter rivalry but it was good for the democracy to see these women lead come and fight elections. Khalidaziya is of the Bangladesh Nationalist Party and she essentially is the widow of ex-president, the sixth president of Bangladesh, Ziaur Rahman. And he was also considered as one of the heroes

of this 1971 liberation war. And Hasina has claimed that it was Zio Rehman who had led the killers to her father's doorsteps something that this family has denied. While Zia, Khalid Azia, has accused Hesina's government of being behind her husband's assassination. Again, this is denied by Haseena's party. So both of them have that historical context,

a bitter rivalry, which translated into elections and electoral rivalry as well. And Kalida Zia is in a Rates now, and still an MP in Bangladesh. Yes, in fact, right now it's a caretaker government of Muhammad Yunus, who's a Nobel laureate, who is currently in power and we are looking at the elections

which has been announced by him in February and in which Sheikh Hasina's party, the Awami League, has been banned from participating but Bangladesh Nationalist Party will be taking part in that election. And let us go back to Sheikh Hazina. I mean, she's currently in exile, in India and I suppose the big question is

whether they will extradite her. Well, yes, I've been following that. development here from New Delhi where Sheikasina is currently staying. And interestingly, this is a second refuge stay in the country. As I mentioned earlier, in 1975, she and her sister had come here. Now, it was on the 5th of August last year when she came to this country. And from then in December last year, the caretaker government of Bangladesh has requested for Sheikasina to be extradited, which the Indian government has been so far unwilling to do. And that goes because back to the historical connections that India has with her. And also it goes to say that India has been

saying it's a legal and judicial matter for now. It is willing to engage independently with the government that's selected in February by a popular mandate by Bangladeshi people. But for now, they've not taken that extradition request any further because even Sheikh Kassina has come out with a statement saying the trial is a farcical. It's a kangaroo court. and India is also bound to see whether she will feel safe once she goes back and if this is indeed a case of political vendetta against her which is what the extradition treaty between the two countries mandates as well. How do you understand her transition as people saw her once as a pro-democracy icon

to then being called an autocrat and obviously found guilty of these crimes this morning? Well, you have to also see the protests that happened last year, and these were protests that were where there were young people from Bangladesh who had participated in these protests. They were angry about the government jobs and the way they were being allocated through a quota system. So there was a discontent which spread much beyond that one would have seen a protest go, because at that time, as she's been accused of a severe crackdown, What we now know through this proceeding is that there were orders given for incitement of violence as the charges were read out today. The other charge which said that a lethal weapon was allowed to be used against these protesters.

Now, these are charges that Sheikh Hasina has denied, but it just goes on to show the extent to which her government wanted to be in power. And this is what the critics of Sheikh Hasina have argued, that the way these protests were handled just shows the way the authoritarian rule had become, and especially under Sheikasina's leadership, how the youth were unhappy and they just came out on streets in masses. So this particular transition of Sheikasina from being a pro-democracy icon to being what many would describe as an elected autocrat was something that was also being observed by International Rights Foundation. The Human Rights Watch, for example, has come out earlier against the international crimes tribunal, the same one that was hearing proceedings against

Shek Hasina today saying that she has targeted opposition leaders. They had claimed that it was working in a biased manner to stifle dissent in the country. So that goes on to show that how her rule changed, how the way she was viewing the people and the democracy changed. As I said earlier as well, these are also charges that Sheikasina continues to deny. To deny. But it is the death penalty, is the sentence that she's now facing. And I'm wondering, is that standard procedure? Is this something that was being pushed for by her critics or the public? Could you put it in context for us?

Well, the court has been hearing this matter, which was reconstituted, this international court of tribunal, international criminals tribunal, pardon me, has been investigating this matter for about a year. It was reconstituted with a three-member committee, and they were chosen by the government, which is a caretaker government for now. So the opposition has been that from Sheikh Kassina's side that she was not allowed to select a lawyer, and she did not feel that this court is working in an unbiased manner.

She felt there was lack of transparency here. But the fact that this court has taken time to go through each and every evidence, even today when the verdict was being pronounced. The court was reading each and every charge, going into detail of the evidence that was gathered against those charges, whether it's about a killing of protesters. The United Nations has said over 1,400 people died in those protests, and it gave evidence to the way it looked at these cases.

So it goes on to show that for the moment that this court has followed the process, but Sheikasina's side continues to say that it is working as a kangaroo court. Can they appeal? Well, what she has said in a statement that has just been released a few moments ago is that she would like to appeal and take this decision to the International Criminals Court in Hague and in the Hague. And then that's where she wants these charges to be tried before this international court. for now, yeah, but for now she said that she believes that this is a farce

and she's noted that she's very proud of her government's record on human rights and development. Devena Gupta, BBC correspondent who's been following this story, thank you so much giving us the background to the former Bangladesh leader Sheikh Hasina. We do have a live page up on BBCNews.com at the moment as well as the developments, as Davina was just telling us, continue to happen. Now, I want to turn to brain fog.

Is that something you've experienced? Well, my colleague, the BBC technology editor, Zoe Clyman, knows all about it. She is a social media post that went viral. Zoe, you're very welcome back to Women's Hour. Tell me about how you came to post on social media about what you were concerned about when it came to remembering things. This is really not my usual kind of content, I have to say. Basically, what happened was I was working late,

the BBC Newsroom. I had a busy day. And then a story broke later on. It was a big story about an outage that was affecting dozens of websites and apps. So my team and I swung into action. We were reporting it, covering it, trying to figure out what was going on. And by the time we got to the BBC News at 10, I was pretty tired and I could just feel that haze of brain fog, you know, that soft focus. And I wanted to, I was doing a live hit on the telly, and I wanted to explain in the company's words that had been affected by this outage, what the out of was and then I wanted to describe what that was and I was standing there it's dark I've got the camera in front of me light on me it's absolutely silent I have no auto queue I've never had

auto queue you know I've been trained as a broadcaster to broadcast without notes for for 20 years and I just can't remember this phrase it's not sticking in my brain and we're getting closer and closer to to this live moment and I can hear the the news in my ear because I've got an earpiece and I thought I've got to write it down I'm not going to remember it if I can't remember the phrase I won't know what to say next and this whole thing is going to go horribly wrong. So I decided to hold the notes. And you know what, Neela, at the time, I felt like this was a massive failure. I was embarrassed about it. And I didn't watch it back because I just didn't want to see it. And I felt like, you know, what's happened to me?

This is my short-term memory has been my superpower. And as a broadcaster, it's very important to me, what is going on. And I wrote a little post about it. And oh my goodness, it's had hundreds of thousands of hits. I've had literally hundreds of messages from women expressing the same exactly the same thing, not just broadcasters or journalists like us, you know, teachers, people running workshops, people doing job interviews, people just having conversations with their families and finding themselves saying, oh, you know, can you get me the what's it that's next to the dood? Because the words are just not coming to mind. Yes, yes. I mean, I read your post. It was on LinkedIn. You have a lovely piece up on the website at the moment

as well, giving some of the background and some of the tips that people have come to you with as well. But even there's, did I see there's a hashtag hold the notes? Yes, that's right. Somebody contacted me and said we should start a movement, hold the notes. And I really love that because, you know, I came at this from a place of vulnerability. 10% of women leave the workforce because of men are poor symptoms. And apparently half of women think about it because they are so significant. I don't want to be part of that statistic.

I want to carry on doing my job. And actually, you know, what was really interesting to me was, you know, this was really professional pride taking a bit of a bashing in my case. And then I thought, if I'm live on the telly and I forget what I'm saying, my pride is going to be even more battered, isn't it? And actually, a lot of people said, you know, we just thought you were holding notes because it was breaking news and you had fresh info. It hadn't even occurred to them that I was having this, you know,

internal trauma about what I was doing? Completely. And I think lots of people will say, what was the problem, holding some notes. But it is with your background that you felt at that point that you were somehow letting yourself down. But of course, no, people in their thousands, as you say, have disagreed. I want to bring in here, who's in studio with me, Dr. Shimitarek, is a clinical research fellow at UCL and working on issues related to the menopause. Welcome.

How would you describe clinically brain fog? What is it? Thanks, Neula. And firstly, Zoe, it's fantastic that you've opened up this conversation, which really strikes a nerve. So brain fog is a catch-all term. It's not a formal medical diagnosis, but it's very real for people who are going through menopause. And it encompasses a range of cognitive symptoms, brain-related symptoms, that occur during this very normal life transition, which can include forgetting things, difficulties, word-finding. And that, I think Zoe described it as that soft focus, so that haziness. And it's really common. I mean, it's estimated that up to 70% of people going through menopause experience these brain-related symptoms. I'm curious,

Soie, what do people tell you that got in touch with you? Lots of people sharing their own experiences. Lots of people saying that they try and mask it, they try and hide it, they try and work around it. And actually, they're frightened of it. And you know what? A really quite worrying number. And I've since spoken to doctors who've, sorry, I'm doing it now, aren't I?

Who have echoed this, have said women come to see them. And women were saying to me, they thought they had dementia because they were so frightened at this sudden cognitive change, you know, seemingly out of nowhere. And that really worried me because I have to admit that wasn't something that I thought, but, you know, that so many women are thinking they have a serious degenerative condition when actually it's hormones. Well, let me come back to you, doctor. What role does estrogen, progesterone, testosterone,

testosterone, all the hormones play in memory function? That's a really good question. So the causes of brain fog are complex. Hormones definitely have a role to play. So I think we commonly see estrogen as being predominantly a role. reproductive hormone. It's much bigger than that. Actually, our brain is one of the biggest organs that requires estrogen. We have estrogen receptors throughout our brains, including the amygdala, the hippocampus, and these are parts of the brain that are responsible for memory

and also for emotional regulation. So when we lose estrogen, which is what happens during menopause, these parts of our brain that rely on estrogen are suddenly losing that. And it can impair are brain processes. Progesterone as well, responsible for mood regulation, sleep regulation. Testosterone, I think there's mixed evidence really for the role of testosterone, certainly in terms of brain function.

But there's other things that cause brain fog as well. This is a difficult time for many women during their lives. So as well as the direct effects of the hormones, we're often not sleeping well. We often have lots of other stresses in our life. We might be suffering for mood-related symptoms, So there's a whole mishmash of things that are playing into this. You know, women can have a tougher time within the workplace to get to where they want to be.

I'm going to talk about getting fired a little bit later in the programme. But I wondered, Zoe, did you have any reticence about showing vulnerability? Yeah, I really did. I mean, part of me still thinks, you know, is this horribly career limiting for me to be saying this. But because of the extraordinary response that I had, I mean, literally women stopping me in a street wanting to talk about it. They never stopped me in the street to talk about quantum computing.

Please feel free to do that, by the way. I'd love it. But, you know, the response was so huge and the support was so huge that I thought, actually, we really do need to talk about this. You know, me holding a sheet of notes on the 10 o'clock news

was a little bit embarrassing for me at the time, but I'm very pleased that it's opened up this conversation and what so many women have said to me is, thank you for normalising it. Thank you for just making it part of, you know, your everyday life and your everyday work. Just a message coming in, Zoe. Fogg. I'm a spoken word performer.

I can't come off the page. It's terrifying. I feel like a fraud and so many younger performance can do that but I need the paper with my words on it. There's still my words. The fear of performing is bad enough without the fear of forgetting. So thank you. I don't feel so ashamed to hashtag

hold the notes now that I don't fall down. The fog hole. There's a term, the fog hole. I love that. I love that. I'm going to remember the fog. Thank you very much. Dr. Sheima, what habits can people have or do to help them in scenarios like this? Because some people take HRT hormone replacement therapy, some people can't or don't want to. And is that the answer anyway?

I think there's loads we can do. So there's lots of positive things that we can do during menopause to help our brain function. So yes, for some people, hormone replacement therapy can be a game changer. It can certainly help with sleep. and mood-related symptoms, stop our heart flushes, and all of those things will have a knock-on effect in terms of our brain function. But there's a whole host of other things we can do.

So physical activity, staying active is really important for brain health, optimal nutrition, things like mindfulness, meditation. All of these things have been shown to improve brain function. But I do have to say, just having an open conversation and really challenging that sense of shame is so key. You know, because I'm just thinking, thinking, the one thing, if you concentrate on one thing or stress about one thing, that can obviously send signals to your brain to worry about that. So maybe bringing it out into the

light and into the open will somehow alleviate the symptoms of brain fog if you're not so worried about brain fog. If that makes sense. It certainly does to me. I mean, I think a lot of, so I'm somebody who has lived experience of being deep in the trenches of perimenopause and I think it's the anxiety of what might happen that sometimes is even worse than forgetting what I'm saying mid-sentence. So I think busting that shame is critical. Soie, what are you doing? Have you decided, apart from holding the notes, is there any other steps you're taking? So I am really happy to explore lots of different options here. I'm having my hormone levels checked and I do take HRT.

I don't take testosterone. I want to find out if that's something that might help me personally. Obviously, given my job, I've had some really interesting messages from people in the tech sector who are looking at this, including one guy who's designed

what he described as a, you know, the infrared light masks that are recommended for your skin. He's designed one for the brain and he reckons that it can help at a mitochondrial level. I don't know if that's the case. I'm looking into it.

It's been FDA approved in the US and I may well give that a go as well. So I'm definitely looking at options. think, you know, it's very interesting to explore it and to accept that it's something that happens to so many of us. I certainly feel a lot less guilty about holding the notes. And do you know what? I'll probably do that a lot more often as well. You may well see me more with notes on screen. And I think maybe that has changed because definitely I hear where you're coming from, kind of being at the same generation, that the notes were frowned upon

in some way. But I think we're so used to seeing people with a small or larger device in their hands now that perhaps we don't even have to worry about holding the notes. A couple more messages for you before I let you go. Having had no problems with menopause, I experienced full-blown brain fog on my cancer drug. Having changed drugs, I'm now fine, so other people going through it, not just on menopause. Huge simply Zoe and all the women dealing with brain fog amongst other huge changes. Isn't this an opportunity to pivot into a place where we put less pressure on ourselves to be perfect? Society can only benefit from women shouldering less burden.

surely. And my question to you, doctor, is if it is menopause-related, is it temporary? Yes. For the vast majority of people, menopause-related symptoms are temporary. And I'd really urge people to speak to others who are through the menopause, because a lot of people who are through the menopause really extoll the positive aspects of being post-menopausal. So for the vast majority of people, this is temporary and things will get better. I want to thank you. Oh, one more. Brain fog. Welcome to my 83 year old world. Am I having a very late menopause, asks Barry. Thank you for all your messages 84844 if you'd like to get in touch. Thanks to our BBC Technology Editories Zoe Kleinman and Dr. Shima Tarreek, Clinical Research Fellow at UCL. Thank you.

Now, have you had a chance to listen to The Woman's Hour Guide to Life? All six episodes of our debut series are available, only on BBC Sounds, I should tell you. And it is there to help you the juggle of life. So whether you want to nurture your friendships, keep the spark alive in your romantic relationship, or build the emotional resilience your children need to thrive. Every episode is packed full of advice like this from the parenting expert, Lorraine Candy, about how we can build emotional resilience in children and young people and also perhaps learn a few things ourselves. I did write the essay to be polemical and I wanted it to shock. That is not Lorraine Candy, I can tell you that, but I can tell you to find the episode. You just head to the Woman's Hour feed on BBC Sounds, search for the guide to life, and then we have the whole series there as a collection.

We also have some clips from that episode with Lorraine on our social media feed at BBC Woman's Hour. You'll find some of her advice there. I will get a clip for you this week as well off Lorraine Candy. Thank you for all your messages that are coming. Coming in, lots on getting fired, which I have to say is going to go down well with my two guests that have just come in. You might have been watching over the past week about the rate of UK unemployment. It has risen recently to 5%, showing signs that the job market has weakened. So those figures, they come from the O&S, the Office for National Statistics.

And those of you that have been let go, made redundant or fired, will know this only. too well. Now, fired is the word my next guest would choose, and they'll explain why. Laura Brown and Christina O'Neill are two former US fashion magazine editors in chief, and yes, both were fired. They were devastated

and scared for their future, but they turned all that around, all that negativity, and now they're sharing what they learned from their own experiences in their new book All the Cool Girls Get Fired. Welcome. Thank you so much. Well, let me start with Laura. What happened when you lost your job?

Myself, I was the editor-in-chief of InStyle magazine, big fashion magazine in the US, and in February 2020, myself and my team were all laid off on a Zoom, a heady Zoom, because they characterised it as closing the print version of the magazine. So everyone was laid off, and then as we were laid off, I got everyone back on the Zoom and said to them, even at the time, something that actually ended up being the spine of this book, which was, your worth is yours, your skills are yours. everything you've learned doesn't go away because you lost your job. Don't give your power up. And we knew that even then. So we were laid off. But, you know, I was important for everybody to remember their own value going forward. So you were having that foresight. But I'm wondering, Christina, did you see it coming? Well, I was fired after a 10-year run at the Wall Street Journal magazine. And there had been a regime change at the top. So usually that's a pretty decent indicator that, you know, change might be a foot. But I had, you know, survived the first three months of the new editor of the newspaper's

tenure. So I started to get a little comfortable in thinking that maybe I was safe until that fateful day when I was called to, well, what I thought was going to be her office. And then the meeting changed to the HR. The HR. I read that. Yeah. So I knew. I knew instantly, you know, that my fate was sealed. But both of you got together. I think there's about 10 months, between your firings but you met out and you posted a photograph together on Instagram

with the caption all the coolest girls get fired I mean what was your feeling at that moment it was stubbornness and a bit of ego actually because we'd been fired about a year apart and we were both very good at what we did

and us and being fired was not distinct from that and that's why as we look around now in the housing I mean, the housing employment market in the UK and especially in the US where there's an absolute plague of layoffs. Your skill and whether or not you're able to keep a job can be completely distinct. So we were very proud of what we did.

And it was quite sort of subversive, actually, to post this picture and say, oh, the coolest girls get fired. What was the response, Christina? It was overwhelming. The Instagram messages started blowing up. And I think we realized that by owning the word fired and knowing, you know, like Laura said,

that we were good at what we did. And even though we were, fired it's not mutually exclusive so you know we felt very strongly that there was more to pick at and that became you know the basis for the book um you'd like to use the word fired why because it's blunt because you know there's so many euphemisms that we all use uh for losing our job and that's fine but oftentimes the the faster you own it the faster you're honest about it the faster you can move on and i had someone write to me the other day saying she loved the word fired because that's how it feels it's not like

Like a bullet. Yeah, let go sounds like you're being dropped off into an Uber by a friend. You know what I mean? Fired is like, bang, you've been fired. And the faster you just, you adopt that term, it's all speed. It's speed and ownership. We all work towards ownership in our career of the good and the bad, right? And so the minute you go, I was fired, this happened to me, I'm going to move on, I need some help.

I'm owning it. Honestly, that's a fast track to whatever you want to do next. But I'm wondering, Christina, you also go into details of why it's different. different for women? Yeah, I mean, we believe that it just took us longer to get there, you know, to get to the top, to climb the corporate ladder. And so when you fall from that, you know, pretty slippery ladder, you know, it does, it does hurt. It does sting a little bit more.

Yes. And I suppose there's also the aspect that we need role models. Yeah. And when we were researching this book. Yeah. When we were researching this book, there weren't that many women whose stories were part of their lore. And we believe that the more women talk about being fired and own it as part of their narrative,

as part of what happened to them on their path to the top. That's why we're so excited to have women like Oprah, Katie Couric, you know, very well-known Lisa Kudrow, you know, icons sharing their stories in the book. I did not know that Lisa Kudrow was Roz in Frasier for like five seconds for five seconds. And then she got canned and then, you know, sort of walking around L.A. for about a year wondering what would happened to her and then fatefully was recast, re-hired as Phoebe in friends by the same director who fired her from Frazier. It's quite something. They can intervene also. Also, I was interested, Christina, that the actor Jamie Lee Curtis, she says that life hinges on a few seconds that you never saw coming. Exactly. And I think that's why you don't burn the place on the way

out, you know, I mean, that moment in Lisa Kudrow and Jamie Lee's, you know, both of their stories were about how they behaved when they were given the opportunity to re-engage. So, and that is a big part of the book as well. It's not just that you're talking to people who are fired or what their thoughts were. You've got really practical advice. So say if somebody, and I hope this hasn't happened to anybody, but was fired this morning, what should they be thinking about? Well, number one, we say, you know, we call it a roadmap and a hug, because you need both. Yeah, the first thing, I mean, the concerns. concerns are a little different in the US, but number one, money, you know, but the most important

thing, if you're fired right then in this room, say this is HR, you don't have to sign anything right in that room. The H.A. People want you to sign up. The ball's actually in your court, take the paperwork and go, you know what, I need a minute, and then go get some counsel, a lawyer, a friend who knows what's up, whatever. And then think about what you want to ask for. Do you want to ask for more money in the US? We'd say health care. Do you want equipment? Do you want retraining? Ask for everything, because what are they going to do, fire you? Yes, so you're even talking about the contacts you have or maybe that laptop or all of that because, you know, you've earned that, you know what I mean? And you don't feel like someone's looming over you with these papers and that pressure.

Take, give yourself some air and a breath and a beat. It's interesting advice because I think if one is fired, there is shame and embarrassment that comes with it and you probably just want to scurry out out there. I mean, some people might have fire in their belly, but it could be probably hard to summon the fire in that moment of vulnerability. Yeah, and it is a very vulnerable moment. And that's another reason why not to sign anything, to really give yourself a beat to kind of, you know, re-get your brain screwed on, you know, get your head screwed on straight and think about what's happening and what you do want to ask for. And at the same time, to the point about shame, so much of it is in your head. And I think that's what we learned is that we thought we were walking into rooms where heads would turn and people would be like, what do they do it, you know? And you sort of realize that generally people want to sort of like, grab your hand, but you have to put it up. You have to sort of say, I'm here and I need help. And you don't have the exclusive on being fired either. So, you know, again, in the US, especially hundreds of thousands of people being laid off,

it's not personal. It's likely very much not you. So don't take that ball of shame and carry it around. And I suppose perhaps we're in a transitional phase as well, because once upon a time, people did have jobs for life. And maybe there was more shock around being fired. But now it is a common day occurrence. And perhaps you have good company.

Work isn't linear anymore. We used to be under two years in a job, oh, she must be dodgy. Now there's like all different ways to kind of earn across. There's so much less judgment. There's so much more empathy in hiring. So it's so important to understand

that when you're moving toward your next thing. Lots of messages coming in. Kate, I was fired from my job in the early 1980s for having, and she quotes, an attitude which was not commensurate with your age or experience, unquote. I was then interviewed and subsequently offered a great job on the basis of having just been fired.

And my new boss loved that I was prepared to push the best. boundaries. So that's somebody with a positive. Sometimes you're not the right fit and you need a better fit. You need to know yourself and know where to steer yourself where your personality and your attributes will be better. And so she learned that and then she nailed it in the next one.

So you've taken a breath. You've taken the paperwork away, whether that's, you know, for a loved one to help you with or whether it's something more serious in the sense of maybe a lawyer needs to look over it. What else? You're going to ask for whatever it may be that they can ask. for you, which is an easy win for the company. Maybe it's the laptop. Maybe it's some

holiday. Pay attention to your money, though. I mean, you know, all of us, like most people in the world have to take a job as soon as possible because they need to pay their rent. Is that what you advise? Yeah, look at how much, I mean, people recommend having a three to six months runway of savings, but even if you don't. And many people will not, particularly over the past few years

if we go from the pandemic. So one thing we, a person recommended to us, if you're going to buy groceries, take cash. Because you know quite quickly we beep, beep, beep our money away. You know, if you take 40 or 50 quid to the grocery store and you just become more aware of what you're spending or if you've lost your jobs tell your mates hi you know what I can't go out to the restaurant this week I can't do that people will take care of so be open about being broke be honest be honest be honest with all of it

yeah because they're getting it alone and taking jobs because this is often I feel a dilemma that people have maybe they were in a role that they loved or a job at a certain level then they're fired from that job do they take the first job that comes along Not necessarily, but you also have to think that no job is beneath you. I mean, there's great examples in the book of people reentering the workforce at jobs that were considered lesser than the one they previously had. Mika Brzynski, a great example of that. And she took a basically, the news anchor in the U.S.

And she basically took an entry-level position to get back into the building. And if she hadn't done that, she wouldn't have been offered, you know, the chance to interview for the job that she's now been in for, you know, 15 years. Another message. I'm a senior woman who was recently removed from an executive role in a professional services firm and the experience has stayed with me in a way I didn't expect. I poured my heart into the role leading our people's strategy, culture, inclusion work and genuinely, excuse me, believed in the values we promoted. Yet when it came to me, those values weren't there. I was dismissed suddenly without any process, documentation or chance to respond. When I saw my male peers in similar situations

that were given structure, support and dignity, I wasn't. I was even told me. I was even told my departure would be explained as personal reasons, something I couldn't agree to, because it risked portraying me as unreliable. You're nodding your heads, both of my guests. It has shaken my confidence, yes, but it's also made me want to speak up. If this can happen at senior levels

in an organisation that was supposed to pride itself on equality, then we need to talk about it. Speak up, exactly that. Christina got the, oh, we'll follow your narrative on leaving, and it was like, Christina was like, you're firing me. Do you want to explain that a little more, Christina? Yeah, so, you know, I was given the opportunity

to come up with a cover story. And I immediately, exactly. And I immediately said, no, no, no, no, no, we are going to go and tell my team and I'm going to tell everyone else that you're firing me. And in that moment, when I took ownership of it and, you know, really wanted to put out there the truth, I could not come up with a reason that I could look people in the eye and say I was leaving my dream job. So I knew that on top of carrying what she accurately describes is sort of the shame that you sort of feel around it. you know, to add a layer on top of that where you have to kind of craft a fictitious storyline about why you're leaving a company, you know, I, you know, we call, you know, BS on that and just say, own it. You're giving your, if this, that sort of narrative is giving the employer more power. You don't owe them anything. You have power.

You have all these skills that you've accrued over this time, but it's up to you to remember that. And like she was saying, speak about it now because that gives, I hope that is giving her and rebuilding her own power. You do have the advice of do not attach your value to where you work. The value lies within you, really paraphrasing what you've said. I did see with the US TV host Katie Kirk, she says, don't let your life be defined by her job.

Don't let life and work get too intertwined. Easier said than done. We know that. I'm particularly for a job that you love. Of course. And it's like, and how wonderful to have a job that you love. But especially now with so much change, be it at AI of various government administrations. Like, just always keep an eye on the horizon.

Understand like where your work sits within your. your life, if you're spending too much time, if you're not seeing your family, if you're not traveling, and just see where the puck is going, which actually what Katie would say. And just understand the sphere that you're working in so you don't get lost. Because if you lose yourself too much in your job, when you get fired, you lose it. Part of yourself. So what should you be doing, Christina, before a firing occurs? Like keeping your eye on the horizon?

Keep your eye on the horizon. Understand where your industry is headed. You know, there's little things you can do. Take tiny little insurance policies out. Download your contacts. Keep your LinkedIn profile up to date. Make sure you are sort of, you know, taking those meetings. Don't sort of, you know, issue like the opportunity to have a coffee with a colleague who's doing something interesting in another organization.

Stay out there. Stay relevant. Stay up to date. Keep your resume up to date. We didn't have a resume for like 10 years. Yeah. It's really hard then if you have to start again. Yeah.

I try and remember what it is that you did. flat-footed, you know. And where you've built over an entire career, you know, suddenly after you're out of it, trying to, you know, reflect on 10 years. And how do you sell yourself again when you're feeling low? Piece by piece. It's really important to go to where you're cared for, to the colleagues that you know, the people that you trust, and take those meetings incrementally.

Sometimes it makes you feel funny in your belly, and you have to listen to that, too. Going into the room where you don't feel right will make you feel weak. But just piece by piece, put the arm up, have somebody grab it, take one. meeting a week, take another meeting a week. And of course, we might have to go and you have to take a job and own money that next day. But just keep that pilot light on. You know, we had a great bit of advice from a money expert at the New York Times. And he said, everyone has a beat, right? Financially, we all have one beat to be like, think about what made you more happy and less happy over the course of your career. What can you do going forward

to increase the happiness and decrease the unhappiness? And that's a wonderful thing. And it may not be the job that you can do all the time, but it could be something that's lit up and, you know, in you that you've forgotten. So you have the book out. You both wear fashion, fashion, fashion, shall we say. Fashion fashion, fashion. And I just wanted your thoughts on a story that caught my eye this morning. This is Sarah Jessica Parker.

She was at the Booker Prize in London earlier this week. And she was photographed with a Fendi bag left wide open for everybody to see its contents. It's described as the peekaboo bag. It's got a smile effect, so says Fendi. and there's been other brands as well that have kind of started this trend of leaving your handbag open so you can see what's inside

just because I've got two fashion women in the room I need to know what you think of this Yes so the fendie bag The Piccaboo has been around since 2009 Oh so it's making It's been peaking for years And obviously Sarah Jessica Parker has a longstanding relationship with the brand

but you know listen she rides the subway I don't think this is the bag that she's taking on the train every morning but you know I'd be horrified if people could see into my bag Yeah no it's in that bag is obviously like a piece of jewelry You know and so she's on a red carpet And she likes a sparkle SJP

So it's very very on brand And look if the bags open She can put a copy of a book in there And they can see what the book is The book is all the cool girls get fired Thank you very much Laura Brown And Christina O'Neil Lots of messages coming in which I will continue to read

I was fired from my job at a cafe after only two shifts for basically being too nervous and not smiling enough. I cried and called my mum. It's definitely helped me try and get out of hospitality, says Ella from Bath. Another, Vicky says, I got sacked on the Monday. I took it as the push to set up my therapy business. I've been doing that full-time now for 10 years

and life is immeasurably better. 8444-844 if you're on the job hunt this morning. I want to share your story of getting fired. That is the place to do it. Now, sitting opposite me, is a woman who is prolific. And we want to talk about balls. Her new opera based on the iconic

in 1973 Battle of the Sexist tennis match between, of course, Billy Jean King and Bobby Riggs. The UK premiere is later this week as part of the Philharmonia's 80th anniversary season. I am joined by the Emmy Award-winning American composer, Laura Cartman. Good morning. Good morning.

Great to have you with us. Music from so many films. American fiction, which I loved. You have the marvels and many more in that universe. The TV hit, Dance Emory Road, are a favorite of mine. What a beautiful documentary that you did the score for, the only woman in the orchestra.

Oh, thank you. Yeah, that was a great one, wasn't it? Oh, my God, I loved it. Oh, good. So if you love feminist history and you love tennis, and you also love the icon, Billy Jane King, it's, I think, a pretty remarkable event

that we're going to see on Thursday. I agree with you. I was lucky enough to see part of it that was recorded of one of the rehearsals. And I mean, it's a feast for the eyes. But it's also so unexpected from my perspective. I'm not expecting a tennis player to come out and sing opera, for example, in full garb. Or a suffragette. Well, there you go. But I think in many ways the match was an opera, right? You had these incredible stakes. You had, I mean, basically, Billy Jing King was fighting for her own victory, but also for the women's movement and for what, you know, the future of advocacy, women's history. I mean, she had a huge impact in the United States and I think worldwide in terms of her advocacy. So this was very important. But Bobby Riggs, it was a circus for him. So I think this combination of high stakes and circus

is perfectly operatic. And you remember that much? I do. I do. I was a young teenager. And it's interesting because it really changed my life. I was a composer at that point. I wanted to be a composer. There were no female role models, right? So I didn't know where to look. I didn't even know that I needed to look. But when I saw Billy, when that match, it seemed like the world opened up. It shifted a bit. And it seemed like anything after that was possible. How amazing is that to have that impact. Have you ever met Billy Jean-King? No, but she supposedly sent some sort of message for me at some big surprise

and I've just been told that I think I'm going to be able to meet her in January so I think I'll just get down on my knees and thank her, Januflex somehow. Maybe she will after watching the opera. I don't know. But that match for our younger listeners, it was watched by an estimated 19 million viewers just to give people

an idea off the scale. You very much enjoy mixing up musical genres and there is kind of a 1970s feel in some way there's jazz vaudeville how do you come to it well i think you know for me that that's that sort of eclecticism is i'm very comfortable with it and because i'm a film composer being musically gymnastic is required of me it's something that i've learned i grew up playing classical music and jazz and singing opera and jazz kind of simultaneously so it's not hard for me to think that way but I think for a piece like this, it becomes essential because you want to play to the vaudevillian

Bobby Riggs. You want to play to Susan B. Anthony, who is this, you know, incredibly serious 19th century woman who saw the future. And then you want Billy Jean in her, I don't know, there's something that feels very present and contemporary about her, even when we're looking back at 1973. So I think having that multiplicity of styles becomes essential for. for this particular piece. You are in between rehearsals at the moment, the piece being conducted by the great American conductor, Marin Olsop.

I believe you both studied music at Juilliard in New York. We did. And in fact, we started our friendship because her first group was a group called String Fever. Maron was a very, very good violinist, and they were doing jazz for strings, which at that point was kind of unheard of. and I did three Fats Waller arrangements for her.

And so our relationship started out as this kind of eclectic combination of classical music and jazz. Well, you know, I was reading that she said there's still archaic old-fashioned views that women could not conduct. She revealed her shock even at the response from young male conductors.

The director, Katie Mitchell, has said recently that she was leaving opera because of the misogyny. I'd be curious for your thoughts on that sphere that they're talking about. You know, it's a tough question because while we want to remain optimistic, especially for your younger listeners, we've gone back a bit. I think that there was some real forward momentum in my field, in particular,

in composing and film composition, specifically after the Harvey Weinstein revelations, I think there was an opening and a curiosity about what the female aperture might sound like. And now that's closing up a bit. And I think Marin has noticed, as if I, and it's our job now as the people with experience to keep that door open with a battering ram for the younger generation. Because you're a member of many organizations that are pushing for equality.

I know you founded the Alliance for Women Film Composers, for example. And I did read that you have a five-year goal of gender parity. I did. I do. I did or I do. I do. I do. I do. I think that we're not being radical enough right now. I think we're not asking for enough. And I think that the progress has been so very slow, too slow. And we need to get to that tipping point in every field. But I think in particular classical music and film music, and I've been told the tipping point is 33%. So I'm looking to get to that 33%, which then will get us to generally. under parody. What does radical look like? Really? You really want to know? Yeah, I do. Radical means that we do work pauses. I don't think stoppages

and strikes, but I love the idea of saying, hey, guess what? We're going to take an hour for ourselves, or a day for ourselves, which means some deadlines may be missed, some things may not happen. You don't know when it's going to happen, but we're going to do it. And it's this kind of very delightful break that is, that we'll throw people off. That's what I, I think it's the only way now. And to have women do that and their male allies? That's exactly right. Women and male allies. And male allies are in fact the most important. In my career, you know, before there were any other women who were in the position to hire me, it was the men who saw and were gender neutral or

didn't care or loved women or whatever it was. But they were my first advocates, really. And so that is a positive story to hear that they are there and hopefully growing in number. They are there. And I think as we raise our children and as we raise men who are awake to all of this. I think things will get better. But I do think we have to push hard, especially right now, because there is, at least in the U.S., a pretty significant backlash. But how do you understand that backlash? Where did it come from? Oh, well, I think it's obviously coming from an election. I think it's coming from a kind of, there was a sense that people wanted to hear these, you know, more unique voices. And now it's like, okay, we've done that. And maybe we don't have to do that now because

it's not being modeled in terms of what's going on politically. But, you know, I think that hasn't stopped us before and it's not going to stop us now. You started composing music at the age of seven. I did. And just some of your practices, Captain America, for example, you've done. We mentioned the marvels and that. I read that you turned to some unconventional instruments like wind-up toys and fuzzy radio static when making the villain Samuel Stearns.

You brought down your mother's 70s analog radio. which we, of course, at Women's Hour, love the idea of using a radio in that way. I'm just wondering how your mind works. Well, there's all of that also in the Billie Jean King Opera. We have triggered live electronics of actual radio spins and of video spins. So your analog fans will be well accomplished. I think it really works in that I'm just looking for something that is apt. or organic to the concept of the film or the project.

So for Captain America, for Samuel Stearns, his whole deal was he communicated via these radio signals. I mean, this is a superhero film and things get pretty improbable. So the idea of incorporating that kind of sound, but thinking about it as music, within the context of the score, was really key. Because some might think of Brave New World, Captain America, is a completely different world. to, for example, the only woman in the orchestra, which is this slower, really narrative of one woman's extraordinary life. Do you put on a different head for each time that you approach your work? Or is it, tell me a little bit, let us into the magic.

It's all me, you know, and I'm a maximalist. I think a lot of times in film music you hear less as more. I'm like more is more. Just pile it on. And so for me, whatever project I approach, whether it be a Maximist opera like Billy Jing King or four double bass quartets and only woman in the orchestra or a huge orchestra, chorus and all kinds of scents

and other instruments for Captain America, it's still coming from the same musical mind who's looking for an organic conception to emerge and make music out of. Speaking of Maximist in our last minute, I couldn't help but notice your amazing glasses. You have not one pair, but two. That's it. One on the top of your head, one that you're wearing.

Yes. I would describe that one is black with gold rims, and I think I see a design on the arms. Yes, yes, exactly, bright colors. On top, we have another pair of glasses. Right. One lens is white, the other is black, and that is part of your personality.

I think I'm beginning to see a little bit of the way you see the world. It is, and I actually take fashion pretty dead. seriously, because I think you can present that to somebody, and especially in Hollywood, where impressions are important. I walk into a room. I have, you know, a lot of stripes and various glasses on, and people immediately know that that's going to reflect itself in the music. So I consider fashion a valuable tool.

Laura Carpman, her opera Bowles, is happening this Thursday, the 20th of November, at the Royal Festival Hall in London. Enjoy it all, Laura. We've really enjoyed having you in on, Woman's Hour as well. Thank you. Thank you. Please do join me tomorrow as we'll talk about tighter regulations for the funeral industry plus Harriet Lane, a wonderful book from her as well. See you then. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hi, it's India here. I'm very excited to bring you the return of child. So we've been on the journey of an embryo all the way to a baby's

first birthday and now we are going to enter the explosive life of the toddler, because this is the perfect place to unpick the very complicated world of emotions, the emotions that affect us all. So come with us as over eight episodes we fall through the abundant and dizzying world of happiness, descend into the depths of fear and the gendered and dangerous world of anger, and then crawl, wobble and bounce our way through awe, love, anxiety and surprise. From BBC Radio 4, this is Child. With me, India Rackerson. Listen first on BBC Sounds.