Woman's Hour - 18/03/2026

Episode Date: March 18, 2026

Women's voices and women's lives - topical conversations to inform, challenge and inspire.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been, no.

I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is Creation Myth, available now wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, I'm Nula McGovern and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. And while you're here, I wanted to let you know that the Woman's Hour Guide to Life is back. You might have listened to some of the episodes from the first series, including ambition without burnout, or turning aging into your superpower. Well, we've got six new episodes for you over the coming weeks that will give you practical tips on issues like self-promotion

without feeling awkward, caring for aging parents, navigating infertility with family and friends, and also how to love your face, whatever your age. I'm really excited about this series of The Woman's Hour Guide to Life, so I really hope you'll join us. You will find the episodes in the Woman's Hour podcast feed on Sundays. It's only on BBC Sounds. But now, back to today's Women's Hour with Anita Rani. Good morning and welcome to the programme. As you've just heard in the bulletin, there are more confirmed cases of meningitis in the unprecedented outbreak.

In Kent, we'll be getting you the answers to the questions you may have. Sue Day, the FAA's head of women's football, will be here to tell us how a new initiative is planning on getting more girls onto the football pitch. We have made huge strides and have had great success with women's football, but still young girls and adolescents face barriers stopping them from getting involved. Body image, how they're treated by boys being just a couple. So I'd like to hear from you on this this morning. Do you play? Do you have a daughter who plays or wants to or once did and then gave up?

What are the reasons? Always good to hear about your experiences on this or anything else you feel like commenting on in the program. Like flowers and what's blooming or about to bloom in your garden. The reason being is because there's a new exhibition on at the Ashmolean Museum in Oxford exploring the history of botany. In the 16 and 1700s, the world's seeds and bulbs were brought to Britain due to its naval and military power. We'll be hearing more about this joyful exhibition. And as the sun is shining today, at least it is outside Woman's Hour HQ, let's hear about the pride and joy of your gardens, your window boxes, or even the park you walk through. Let's all take a deep breath and enjoy the beauty of spring.

this morning. So get in touch in the usual way. The text number is 84844. You can email the program by going to our website or you can WhatsApp me on 0300-100-444. That text number once again, 84844. But first, five more cases of meningitis have been confirmed in Kent, according to the UK Health Security Agency. Two people have died, a 21-year-old university student and Juliet, a six-form pupil at Queen Elizabeth's Grammar School in Favisham. A targeted vaccination program has been announced at the University of Kent. The Health Secretary, where Streeting has described it as unprecedented and a rapidly developing situation, but said this morning on the BBC that officials are proactively managing the outbreak, adding the general risk is low, even if the disease itself

is extremely serious. So what are the facts and what do parents and young people need to know? To discuss this, I'm joined by Dr. Guy Thri Amritha Lingam, Deputy Director Immunizations and Vaccine Preventable Diseases at the UK Health Security Agency and GP, Dr Ellie Cannon. A very good morning and welcome to the programme to both of you. Guy Ther, I'm going to come to you first. Can you tell us about the latest numbers this morning? Sure, thanks very much, Anita. So as you said, we are are seeing more cases that are being reported to us. So the total number as of the end of yesterday is total of 20 cases. This includes nine that are actually confirmed as manager cockle infection and a further 11 which are undergoing further investigation. Of those, we know that six are confirmed

as the group B strain of manager cockle disease. Can he tell us a bit more about the group B strain and what's different? Sure. So manager cockle disease is caused by a number of different strains of the meningococcal bacteria. And so one of those is Group B. And this is, like other strains of meningoccal disease, can be very serious, as we've already experienced. We've had two tragic fatalities in this outbreak, which is obviously very devastating.

The vaccination programmes that are currently offered in the UK program includes a vaccine to protect against meningoccal group B strain for young babies. So this is offered to babies at, eight and 12 weeks of age with a further dose at 12 months. There is also another manager cochlear vaccine which is offered routinely to teenagers through schools. That covers other strains of the disease, group A, C, W and Y. And really, thanks to the success of that teenage vaccination program, we see very few cases of those strains. So it means that the majority of the cases that we

see in England now are of this group B strain. Yeah. So that program for this type of meningitis It didn't come in until 2015. So those students that we're talking about now wouldn't have been vaccinated as babies. So as you mentioned, there's a targeted vaccine program that's been announced at the University of Kent. How vital is it for students to get that vaccination?

So I think it's important to stress that the priority for immediate protection is actually antibiotics. So to be able to, if you have been offered antibiotics, if you're somebody as part of the university that's been offered antibiotics, or if you have attended club chemistry on the dates that's mentioned. So on the 5th, 6th, 7th of March, please do come forward because this is the best way to protect

yourself. That's the most important priority because that essentially removes the bug from your nose and throat if you happen to be carrying that infection. The vaccine is about providing longer term protection. So it does take time for immunity to develop from the vaccine and it does require two doses. So whilst it's really important to provide that protection, the immediate priority is to have the antibiotics. The vaccine can't replace the antibiotics.

It's important to have both. It's obviously very worrying. It sounds very worrying. It's in all the national news. But do parents and young people outside Kent's need to be worried? Yes. I think it's really important to really... At the moment, the outbreak seems to be very much contained

within the Canterbury area, the Kent area. And the overall risk to the population remains low. Menchoccal disease, although it's extremely serious when it occurs, is thankfully rare. So in terms of across the country, the risks remain low. But for those in the area who will have been identified, please do take up and follow the public health advice. We've heard on the Today program earlier from the chair of the National Pharmacy Association that private vaccine supplies have run out.

What do you make of this? Of course, we understand people are going to be understandably extremely concerned. We understand people and parents' concerns about this, but it is important to now know that there is a targeted vaccination program going to be starting for those that are most at risk. So we really want to reassure people that those who need it will have access to the vaccine through the national program, through the Routy NHS program.

Yeah, and what are you advising GPs to do? So it's important to be alert to the signs and symptoms of meningitis. That's not just for GPs, it's for everyone, particularly for parents and young people themselves. to be alert to those signs and symptoms and to seek urgent medical advice because we know that early prompt treatment with antibiotics is actually key

and can be life-saving. So that's the key message. GPs may be contacted if we know that some of the students have returned back home. People who've been frightened understandably may have left campus. And so if they have returned home, we still need them to take up the offer of antibiotics. And so those local GP practices may be contacted to support that effort.

Okay, well, I'm going to bring in GP, Dr. Ellie Cannon now. Morning, Ellie. What are the key symptoms and signs? What should we be looking out for? So with meningitis, some of the early signs are very similar to other infections or even a hangover, which can be quite difficult. Being sort of mildly unwell, having a bit of a sort of like, you know, feeling run down. But there are key things with meningitis that people should know. You have a temperature. You have a headache. You have sensitivity to light. You often have neck stiffness. So they're really sort of like the triad of symptoms that myself as a GP, I'm sort of always looking for with kids or anybody who's

got an infection. And people get ill really, really quickly. We talk about the rash a lot with meningitis. Actually, the rash is quite a late sign. So if you see that typical rash of meningitis where it does not disappear when you press it with a glass, that is a 999 call because that's already a sign that your body has been overwhelmed by sepsis. How can people distinguish meningitis from flu or a heavy cold? It's a really pertinent question. It's really hard to do that in the first few hours. Generally speaking, one might say that flu or a cold gets better if you take paracetamol

ibuprofen, meningoccal sepsis, which is what we're talking about, gets worse very, very quickly. I've spoken to parents in the last couple of days whose children have had meningitis. And what they say is that when they got to hospital, they were told you got here with half an hour to spare or with an hour to spare. It's this very, very rapid progression, which is why it is so frightening and why I understand that my phone has not stopped going mad in the last sort of two days from friends and parents and patients who are desperate to get their children vaccinated. What are they saying to you? Well, I think there's a real disconnect between what I hear from sort of authorities, say, like, sort of UKHSA and what's actually happening on the ground. I have young adult children.

You know, it's very, very concerning. I understand that Aksa are saying, well, it's a rare situation and it's sort of, you know, it isn't sort of affecting children outside of Canterbury and Kent, young adults, I should say. And that's absolutely right. But when you have kids on the ground, in universities who are socialising like these kids and we see this outbreak, it's very difficult as a parent to hear,

well, actually the risk is generally low. You know, it's March, this has all sort of like sort of reflections for all of us about COVID and pandemics and we've only just had a measles outbreak in North London. So you know, it's very hard for parents and this is what I see in general practice and young adults themselves, students themselves,

to sort of say, oh well, that's distant from me. It doesn't feel distant. Yeah, I'm going to get... It doesn't feel distant. It feels very, very close and it feels very concerning. Yeah, Guy Thrie, what do you say to that? I mean, I fully appreciate, I mean, Meningoccal disease is a disease that kills, and people understandably are very, very frightened. We all are concerned about what's happening at the moment in this outbreak.

And as we've heard, this is an unprecedented situation. But I think it's important to put the kind of risks of spread of menager cuckold disease and compare that with the risks of spread of other infections such as measles that Ellie's just mentioned. Because measles is highly transmissible. It is incredibly infectious. It's one of the most, well, it is the most infectious virus that we know about. Manager cokal disease is different in the sense that it requires prolonged close contact, intimate contact, such as kissing, sharing vapes, that sort of level of contact for that to

spread. And so that is really important to put that into perspective because, yes, we are responding, we take this very seriously, but it does need to be compared with other infections, such as measles, or even COVID for that matter. Yeah. Ellie, what are you advising parents and children to do? So definitely check what vaccinations you've already had. Now is the time to have a good look and check your child has at least had meningitis ACWY, which is another one, which is really important to have before uni. If you are in that local Canterbury and Kent area, as we've heard, the priority is the antibiotics, particularly if you're in that club and then looking into that local vaccination program and making sure that young adults at university are aware of what to do if they feel

unwell. One of the most important things is to make sure you've got a friend who you are buddying up with and if you do not feel well, if it's a hangover, flu, whatever, they are are keeping an eye on you. Lots of good information there for now. Thank you so much, Dr. Guy Ther, Amirondheim, and Dr. Ellie Cannon. Thanks to both of you. 844-844 is the number to text. And now I want to welcome Sue Day back to Women's Hour.

She is the director of women's football at the Football Association, the FA, a role which focuses on the grassroots end of the game. And this morning, some new educational resources aimed at getting more girls into sport and physical activity are being launched. Welcome back, Sue. Thank you very much for having me. So let's start about this research that's been done. What do we know about primary school level and getting young girls into football?

On the face of it, you know, it's a great success story. Yeah, and the first thing to say is there is a great success story. We're constantly saying this in women's football and women's sport generally. We've come so far. And at the same time, they're so far still to go and we all want to push for more. So there is more opportunity for girls to play football. There were a million girls playing in 2021. There's way over 2 million girls playing now.

So there is loads of opportunity. We've got 90% of key stage 2 and 3 girls who have access to playing football. The issue that the piece of research, the issue that it really shows up is that, yes, there is a lot of opportunity for girls now, but there are also things holding them back. And so at primary school, the thing that really comes through at the research,

that the primary school teachers are telling us is the thing that's holding girls back is gender stereotypes, it's attitude. So they're hearing from boys or from parents or it might be that girls shouldn't be playing football. At that young age. At that young age. It's terrifying, isn't it,

that girls are still hearing those messages. And so at primary school, they're hearing those sort of messages. When you get through to secondary school, it's more internalised. So primary school, the outside world is saying, oh, maybe you shouldn't be playing football. at secondary school it's more internalised girls are more worried about it's body confidence

you know should I be playing how do I look playing and so the research tells us all of this and so what we're trying to do is is take practical steps the teachers are telling us the research is all based on what teachers are telling us and they're seeing an experience in schools yeah it's really interesting isn't it because on the face of it you know this research is about sport

and getting girls playing getting them on the pitch and getting them put their football shoes on and pulling up the socks and all the rest of but actually there's something much deeper going on here Yeah, I mean, sport is just a reflection of society, isn't it? I think it's such a great way. You look at sport and you see society reflected back at you, and we know, you know everywhere you look at you, on the TV, TV programs, everywhere,

that there are rising levels of misogyny, rising pressures on girls and boys, actually, to comply with these stereotypes. And so, yes, sport is a great mirror to hold up to society, but it is also a great way to help affect change. If we can show, if we can show the world what girls are capable of through sport. The world can see young girls and older girls and wonderful women running around, playing football, being strong, being athletic, being confident. That is a great way to show the whole of society what girls and women can be.

And surely, especially at primary school age, you should get them all running around on the pitch together. What sort of the, what's the, I don't know, have you been into schools talking to young girls? Like what are some of the things that they're saying to? And I'm particularly interested in hearing what teachers are telling you as well. Yeah. I mean, there are so many boys and girls, by the way, who love playing football together and running around together and having fun together.

And, you know, that is what we want to see in primary schools. And we are also hearing from teachers that some boys are just growing up, assuming understanding that girls shouldn't be running around, playing things like football. And girls are hearing those messages. And so what we're hearing from teachers is that, We understand that this is happening. We want to encourage those kids who are really happy to play together and run around together.

And we want to be able to have the more difficult conversations with those kids who are seeing it a little bit differently. And so the point of this piece of research and the toolkit is it's really practical stuff. It's how do we help teachers with lesson plans, with the conversations that they can have with their kids that helps them understand that actually there's a place for everyone on the playground. And the boys and girls should be in the middle of the playground. And the girls shouldn't be around the edges. We should all be in there together running around, having fun. And what about access to resources? Yeah, I mean, again, like I said at the start,

we've come a really, really long way. So, you know, there are more pitches than ever they were. There are more opportunities to play in schools than ever there were. There are more programmes in clubs than ever they were. And yet there is still, you know, a long way to go. We still know there's loads of work to do on pitches. The brilliant story in football is that there are way more boys playing and so many more girls playing than they were.

But it's really hard to keep up with that in terms of pitches. And so there's loads of investment. going into that side of things, it's still a long way to go. I want to hear about your story. Game changer, you know, absolutely forged a path. You were England rugby captain winning three grand slams and playing in three World Cups. What made you keep playing as a child?

Where did your interest come from? And how did you get into it? Yeah, I'm just like these little girls running around on a playground now. So I played at primary school, I played football. I played football every single day. I would get a football for Christmas so that I could take. take it into school and say to the boys, please can I play because I've got the football.

And so I was allowed, I played football with the boys every day at primary school. Then I got to an age 10 or 11 when they just wasn't a place for me anymore in football because in those days, there was far less provision. But that lit the fire in me and showed me how amazing team sport was. But you obviously had support at home as well. Yeah.

If a child shows interest, you've got to have the people around them who will encourage that as well. That makes such a difference, isn't it? My mum and dad, they weren't massively into sport, but they were into supporting me and whatever I wanted to do and so the messages I heard at home were if you want to play football

you play football but then I ended up because there was no space in football I played netball, I played hockey and then eventually fell into rugby and then playing rugby for England and all that, everything that team sport brings you the sense of

the friendship, the family, the leadership, the learning to fail all of that stuff we get so much out of sport and so that's what we want to make sure every girl gets a chance to do it. Yeah, as a... as a kid who was involved in everything just because I was enthusiastic, even if I wasn't

the best, it doesn't matter, I would plan. But post sort of 13, hitting puberty, and I was at an old girl school, and it's just, you know, that awkwardness of being in your body. I mean, I was, this really does make me sound like I'm prehistoric, but it was sports knickers. We weren't even allowed to wear tracksuit bottoms back then, you know.

And so as well as the sort of social pressures, some of it's practical, isn't it? Last time you were here, we talked about things like sports bras being put on uniform kit lists. Our plans underway to sort of make it just less awkward. Exactly. There's some really, you know, there are some really complex societal things. And then there are some deeply, deeply practical things we can get right. If we allow girls at school to run around in the clothes that they feel comfortable running around in, they don't necessarily want to, you know, wear shorts or T-shirts, they want their bodies to be covered,

whatever it might be, they want bagging, whatever it is. If we allow them to run around in the things that they're comfortable in, then the research tells us they're much more likely to be able to play. So it's helping schools understand that. It's giving teachers the tools that they need to know that so that they can implement all of those. So yes, absolutely. Sometimes it's the simplest things that can make the biggest difference.

If only it was shorts, actually knickers. Anyway, I'm haunted. You've been in your role at the FAA since December 2024. How's it going? What's the biggest challenge you've faced? Oh, my words. I mean, I'm loving it. The privilege of being back in the sport that I first, you know, grew up in

and trying to make sure that we want to make sure that if any girl who wants a chance to play football has a chance to play football, we don't want to be an accident anymore that you happen to get the opportunity to play somewhere. If every girl wants to play, she has the chance to play. So it is such a privilege to be a part of that. What's the biggest challenge? It's just that there is so much to do. Like I keep saying we've come so far and there's so much more.

more to do. So we're in 90% of schools now. We want to get to 100. We build in the amount of extracurricular provision. And the government is putting a lot of new funding into school sports infrastructures. How do we make sure that that infrastructure is designed in a way that works equally well for girls as it does for boys? We're getting millions of girls playing at school now. How do we make sure that there is a really clear path from playing in school to them being able to link with a club? Because there is such, there's such, there's so many girls playing now, making sure they've got the pathway to keep her.

Yeah, I've got the figure. Now, it's since 2020, a number of women and girls regularly playing football has doubled. It's now 2.7 million. Isn't that fantastic? Is it enough? It's never enough, is it?

We want every girl who wants to be playing, have a chance to play. Now, the numbers may never match between boys and girls. That matters less. What I want, what we want, is that if a girl wants to play, she has the chance to.

And so making sure the infrastructure is in place to catch her is the important thing. You know, two and a half million girls now playing in school is brilliant. But how do we make sure that there are the pathways so that she can carry on from school through to club, that the pitches are there, that their clubhouses are there, that there are enough girls' toilets, that she can wear the right kit.

It's all of those practical things around the edges. But yeah, it's such a brilliant growth story. It's just we can't rest. No, that's why we've got you there to keep pushing. I think it's really important we talk about. this because we covered the women's rugby world cup which was such a huge success story it was so brilliant and what really stayed with me about that time and what young girls particularly were seeing not just young girls or women is powerful women's bodies yeah the sport through sport we get a

chance to show everybody in society how strong powerful brilliant women can be and there are so few places in life that we get to showcase that and that rugby world cup and indeed the euros that the football euros that came before in 2022 they are these moments where the world gets like a window into sport and we get to showcase sport and use it to show the world how absolutely amazing women and girls can be and how strong they are and how powerful they are and you know team sport in

particular it brings this real joy and I think that rugby World Cup really tapped into that feeling of joy didn't it And it gives girls this space. You're so often in society, back to where we started, so often in society girls are told to be smaller or quieter or all those things. And sport, team sport, is this place, the change room where they get to be loud. They get to be leaders.

They get to be strong. It's such a powerful space for girls to be in. C-Day, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. Brilliant message. Thank you so much. I'm going to read out a couple of messages that are coming in from our listeners. My daughter plays football under 12s

and in a boys league on Sunday. How good is this? She doesn't feel able to play football at break times and lunchtime at school as it's only boys, even though she's as good as them. When playing boys at the weekend, her team often experienced discrimination from the boys and even worse, the parents of those boys

who hate the boys being equaled or beaten by girls. Lauren, thank you for that message, but make sure your daughter keeps going. She's obviously got a gift. Another one here from no name saying at primary school, the PE teacher used to run a free lunchtime girls football club to try out and play football. This was a game changer. My daughter still plays for her local club age 16.

84844. Keep your thoughts coming in. Now, MI5 will pay compensation and has apologised to a woman who was coercibly controlled and attacked with a machete by one of its agents. The woman, who is being called Beth, made a legal claim following a BBC investigation. four years ago, which showed that the man known publicly as Agent X was a neo-Nazi misogynist who used his security service role as a tool of abuse. Well, to understand this more, joining me is Kate Ellis from the Centre of Women's Justice who represented Beth and BBC Investigations reporter Daniel Desimone. Welcome both of you.

Kate, I'm going to come to you first. Is this vindication for Beth? Yes, it is. I mean, it was extremely difficult to bring a... claim like this against MI5 because of course they're so shrouded in secrecy. She was in this extraordinary position where when she brought her claim initially, MI5 responded by saying they couldn't respond to any of her allegations or rather that they could only respond in secret within a closed tribunal. They couldn't give her any information about their response to her allegations

or indeed whether her ex-partner really was an MI5 agent. So all along, MI5 have either sought not to respond to her allegations or in the case of a BBC investigation into those allegations have sought to shut down the story, essentially saying that it's not true and discrediting her. So I think to receive this apology and to receive a settlement from MI5, a financial settlement, is very meaningful and shows that there is some acknowledgement from MI5 that had this case gone all the way to trial, it could have been highly damaging for them. Would she have rather gone to court? I think she would have preferred that there was a full and public hearing of her allegations

and that the world could find out what MI5 really knew about this individual and what they have to say for themselves. So yes, I think she would have preferred that it had gone all the way to court, but equally in a situation like this where a defendant comes to you with a substantial financial settlement offer, you know, it gave her a way out of this litigation. The fact is the case has been going on for. for four years. It's been extremely bruising.

MI5 have been very difficult throughout that litigation and even relied on false evidence in court. So I think she's happy to be able to walk away with this kind of closure and, as you say, vindication. Well, Beth isn't giving interviews, but I do want to read out her statement. She says, I'm grateful for the compensation I've received, but it can never do anything to repair what I went through at the hands of X. I'd pay the money so as not to have to experience even a minute of what I had to experience of the worst of his abuse. unfortunately I feel very strongly that in spite of this apology the MI5 are still protecting this violent misogynistic predator as for years now they've refused to answer any questions about him Daniel I'm going to bring you in to sort of explain a bit more about this case but first your take on how significant this settlement is I think it's really significant I mean as Kate said MI5 have spent years trying to discredit Beth trying to discredit our journey

and trying to deny the truth really. So the fact that they have then made a significant financial offer to her and settled the case and issued a public apology from the Director General, also a personal apology to Beth is really significant. It shows how much trouble they knew they were in in this case. They gave false evidence in Beth's case. They gave false evidence in a High Court case they brought against me and the BBC to stop the story.

and they're still under investigation for that. And I think there's still, so this story is still got some way to run and it could even end up with them being held in contempt of court. It's that serious. It's very multi-layered to this story. And like you say, this investigation has been going on for years. So give us some more insight and detail, Daniel. What kind of abuse was Beth alleged to have been subjected to?

Well, she was without any question at all, coercerively controlled by Agent X. And he used his position with MI5 as part of that control. So he used it to threaten her to say, I can get away whatever I want. They'll protect me. You're nothing. I'm powerful. And that was, we saw, we've seen this kind of abuse with police officers.

And over the last few years, there's been a lot of public debates about that. And a lot of, I think, public recognition that this is totally unacceptable for someone to use the state, the power of the state. to coercively control. Yet this, we've seen this in a security service context, and that is just something we haven't really seen publicly or hasn't been really gone into publicly. That was one of the reasons why I was so passionate about investigating this and exposing it.

And we really wanted to challenge MI5 on this. What have they done? What did they do to assess his suitability before taking him on as an agent? What did they do to assess his risk? Once they knew he was behaving as he was, towards Beth, what did they do to stop it? And so that's all really key issues.

And I think this really has challenged them on their approach to violence against women, on their approach to coercive control. And I think they've been very defensive and the government has been very defensive. And as they spent years really trying to discredit Beth, trying to discredit our journalism. At one point, the Director General of MI5,

who is the one who issued the apology to Ben, called the Director of General. the BBC to say that our story was inaccurate. That is something that is just untrue. You know, everyone can see now that our story was true, that it's factually accurate, and that Beth was abused and coercively controlled. And there's this key evidence,

which was Beth filmed Asian X attacking her with the machete. I mean, this is on video. So there's no doubt about the abuse. You know, this is document. She also filmed him talking about wanting to kill people, We spoke to an earlier partner abroad where he behaved in a similar way, used his associations with criminal gang to coerce her. Both women we spoke to had both ended up hospitalized as a result of his sort of psychological control and terrorists.

It's really, really serious case. And I think it's a tribute to Beth yesterday, the fact that she's fought this all the way to the point that we've had this unprecedented apology, public apology from the Director General. Yes. Can you tell us what else MI5 have had to say about this recently? I think I have a statement here from the Director General, Sir Kell. Have you got it in front of you? I think I've got it in front of me here.

Sir Ken McCallamy said, we sincerely apologise to Beth for the distress she's suffered because of MI5's mistakes in this litigation. We relied on incorrect evidence and our record keeping fell well short of the standard of professionalism that we expect and to which Beth was entitled. We profoundly regret that our mistakes prolonged the litigation and caused additional suffering for Beth.

MI5 has settled Beth's claims, claimant and we've apologised to Beth directly prompted in part by Beth's case. MI5 has embarked on a program of work to reinforce the highest standards of recordkeeping and information management. So, Kate, is this only about information management in your view? Yeah, I mean, notably they haven't apologized for this agent's conduct or for failing to assess the risks that he might pose to Beth. So it's unclear whether it will ever really come out what MI5 did and didn't do to kind of assess the risks and manage the risk posed by this agent. I think there may be people who see the headlines about this case

and think, look, you know, MI5 has to protect this country from extreme, from serious threats in terms of terrorism. And maybe they have to have people in various situations who may be a bit subterranean. Yes, they rely on informants for a intelligence. Of course, some of those informants are going to be highly unsavory characters. And I understand that. But I suppose what's distinct about this case is that this was an individual who, as Daniel said, had already been reported for really serious domestic violence and psychological

abuse against another partner. He'd shared some really terrifying information about his views, sort of publicly and privately. We know that he glorified mass violence, but also in particular glorified extreme violence and sexual violence against women and children, had expressed pedophilic views, certainly to Beth. So I think there's a real question about, you know, firstly, should MI5 have recruited this person in the first place or was he just too high risk? And secondly, if they were going to recruit him,

shouldn't they be keeping him on a tight leash? I mean, this is the security service. They vet people very carefully, or so Willard to believe, they profile people. They knew exactly or we say should have known who he was. And yet throughout his time working for MI5, he was in a relationship with Beth and he was abusing her. And she indeed also reported him to the police and he has never been brought to justice.

Daniel, you've been on this story for years now. Are there still parts of it that are ongoing? There are. There's definitely more to come on this. I think we will know more about what happened with MI5. And as I said, there is this official investigation into the false evidence that they gave. You know, they gave false evidence in best case, in our case, BBC case, they then did a very inadequate investigation to that, which led to the High Court,

criticising them and the Prime Minister ordering an investigation last September, which is due to report soon. So that's all still to come. So it's really become a major test for MI5 this in all sorts of ways. And I think that without Beth fighting it like this, we wouldn't have got to where we are. Without her speaking out, we wouldn't have got to where we are. So I think it's a real tribute to her that where we are today and that all of these things are happening. And although MI5, the apology yesterday is quite careful in what they're saying sorry for, that even that is really unprecedented to get the Jeterre Journal of MN5 talking like that. And I think it's a real achievement by Beth.

Thank you both for talking to me and shedding light on this case. Thank you to BBC Investigations reporter Daniel Desmone and Kay Ellis from the Centre for Women's Justice. And if you've been affected by abuse, you can find links to information. and support on the BBC Actionline website. For now, Daniel and Kate, thank you. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids.

I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been no. I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story.

Definitely just a story. B.C. Personally, this is creation myth. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. Now, in the latest episode of CBB's Parenting Download, presenters Katie Thistleton and Governor B have been looking at how parents and young children can get active and fit. Joining them are the nation's P.E. teacher Joe Wicks and Harry Aiken's RETE, better known as Nitro from Gladiators. Well, Harry spoke to the podcast about his role in the hit BBC show. and the impact it's had on his five-year-old daughter.

She loves it. She absolutely loves it. Whenever she sees me, it's weird. She knows the difference between Daddy and Nitro. No way. She's grown with it. And it's so funny because, you know, there could be a queue of kids waiting to speak to Nitro.

And she'd join the queue. And she's sit there and wait. And I'm like, what are you doing? Come here. Or, you know, we'll be out and about. And obviously, I get recognised quite frequently. And she doesn't even allow them to talk. She'll be like, hi, meet Nitro.

Want a picture? Oh my gosh, she's basically your manager. Basically. That's brilliant. Yeah, she just loves every bit of it. The pageantry, the lights, the access that she has. A lot of things I've done, I've done selfishly for myself, being an Olympic athlete, targeting certain goals.

But once you do have a little one, everything changes. And then all of a sudden, you know, me becoming a gladiator has taught her to be brave, taught her to be fearless, taught her to be the best version of herself. Same as when I did strictly gave her, in essence, of being a performer. because when I was doing all of these shows, she was there helping me through the process or, you know, daddy's practicing or training, so I'm going to train with him.

Joyful. And you can hear that episode in full by searching for CBB's parenting download on BBC Sounds or you can also watch it on IPlayer. I'm going to read out a few more of your messages coming in about getting girls into sport, Anita. In the 70s, I begged my parents to let me go to a particular secondary school solely on the basis that the alternative made girls wear gym knickers.

It worked out well for me, but I never admitted to them what the reason was that I wanted to go there. These things really do matter to young girls. Another one here. I taught PE for 40 years and fought my head of department unsuccessfully to allow girls to wear cycling shorts under their skirts.

It would have made such a difference to their willingness to participate. And one more, good morning, my granddaughter is eight and has been playing football since she was five and plays for a local village team in Wiltshire. She's just been scouted by Southampton Football Club. What a proud granddad. parent you must be. Keep it going. Now, if you will, close your eyes and picture this.

Rhododundrons, tulips, camellias, beautiful shades of red, pink, white, yellow and their aroma wafting through the air, something to look forward to as spring inches closer. But have you ever stopped to think about how our gardens got to be filled with so many different plants and flowers? Well, an exhibition at the Ashmolean Museum in Oxford answers exactly that quote. taking visitors across the world. It's called In Bloom, How Plants Changed Our World. And I'm delighted to say to tell us more is Dr Francesca Leone, who is curator of Islamic Art at the Esmolian. Welcome, Francesca. Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's our pleasure. What story does this exhibition tell us about plants? Talk us through it.

Well, it tells many stories. I won't tell you too much because otherwise nobody will come and see it. I'm really looking forward to seeing it, actually. But give us a little hints. What can we A little bit brief. It's really about the collecting and circulation of plants and how they really changed our habits. What we eat, what we drink, what we smell, what we desire. The way we know about things, our cultural life. It is really an invitation to look more closely at familiar blooms. You mentioned some of them, tulips, roses, camellias, poppies, orchids. It's a fist for the eye, in fact, but also to see. how deeply entangled our history is with the history of these plants and how personal, economic, social and cultural histories really get woven into each other behind something that looks so genteel, occasionally so innocuous.

We were very keen on bringing together familiar objects, you know, the botanical, the exceptional botanical art that has peppered art history over time, but also material culture. So visitors will not only encounter expected works of art, you know, your traditional Dutch still lives, but also some unfamiliar objects that reveal the paths of some of these plants and how they become common. Such as? Rubber and we have poppy and poppy heads and tools to extract alkaloids that eventually made poppy is such a phenomenal, if dangerous, medical plant.

Well, let's stick with poppies, because like you said, they are a theme of the exhibition, and they became somewhat of an obsession, didn't they? Well, you know, poppies arrive in this country very early on, you know, the papaver orientale and the papavre soniferum, which is the types of poppy that, in fact, is used eventually for medical purposes, have been known in British Gardens for a long time. time. You know, in the exhibition we combine stunning hand-watercolours, hand-painted watercolours and hand-painted engravings, superb works in which you show species of poppies being specifically created to feed, raising fluoromanias, because the tulipom mania is not the only florimania that we are accustomed to every single flower, almost enjoyed its own. moment of frenzy. But poppies have obviously this sort of dark story in which their medical

properties eventually become a source of addiction and they become a contentious object into the political strife between rising commercial empires and established nations. You know, we briefly mentioned the Opium Wars as a familiar way to show how something that originally you may think could be a simple flower could, you know, upset. Yeah, we used as a source of control, absolutely. Let's talk about trade and exploration because they've been long seen as the pursuit of men. But can you tell me about any women who contributed to the transformation of our gardens? Yes, yes.

We were very keen in this exhibition, essentially to go beyond the familiar story of Borten, yes, a story of men. There are a lot of them. and for a long period of time, women have difficult roles. In the first room, for instance, we tell the story in particular of two women who sit in different social environments. We have Mary Somerset, the first Duchess of Beaufort, who was a wealthy woman to whom plants, seeds, and knowledge

arrived from all over the world, thanks to an incredible network of articulturalist, naturalist, sea growers and explorers. On the other hand, we also have the story of Maria Sibyla Marianne, trained as an engraver and as a painter, who at the very end of the 17th century decides to travel to Suriname, a Dutch colony in South America, selling a lot of her work to investigate insects.

And she's actually a woman who really challenges at the time, knowledge about how insects came to be but produces absolutely stunning botanical works where the life cycles of insects are shown in conjunction with the plants and so her work as relevant as it is for the history of early history of entomology is actually a transformative way of actually presenting plants and animals and insects in this case within their natural interaction and habitat And Maria Cibilar-Marian, when she goes to Suriname, is a widow with two daughters. And imagine the demands of a trans-Sureceanic trip to actually get from Germany all the way to South America.

To South America. And just wanting to do that, having the gumption to do it, then also finding the capacity to be able to get out there and to afford to do it. And the resources, you know, selling her own work essentially of producing mass work to be able to pursue her passion for bugs. Remarkable. We tell a little bit about her story. But there are many other women in the exhibition that I invite our visitors to come and discover.

But we look forward to it. Is there a particular flower, one that maybe we're familiar with, with an origin story that we might find surprising? We have a whole section about roses. I mean, roses, who doesn't like a rose, yes. And we have combined, also in this case, different types of work, to explore how the familiar cultivars, the kind of roses that are today familiar in this country, effectively familiar everywhere, are the result of travels and mutations and productions.

You think in particular about so-called hybrid roses, hybrid-he roses, which are the sensation of the second half of the 19th century. And they are the long-termed central bud, perfectly blooming. and perfectly smelling rose that we do find today in our nurseries. But hybrid teas are in fact the results of experimental combinations between the traditional in established rose cultivars in Europe and the Rosa Chiniances, the Chinese rose that obviously started to come from Asia in the 18th century and really transformed the way roses were experience because this was a long-lasting, incredibly fragrant rose that really changed

away roses up to that point were being produced. And you will be able to also smell the scent of some of these original flowers as you walk through the exhibition. Sounds delightful. Thank you so much for speaking to me this morning. That's Dr. Francesca Leone, curator at the Ashmolean Museum. And that exhibition is on now. It's called In Bloom, How Plants Changed Our World. 84844, another message from you. Both my daughters now 40 and 35 play football. They've played it for years. The opportunities to start playing football is very dependent on teachers' interest and ability to teach football. It needs to be as available to girls as to boys. Parents play a crucial part in encouraging their daughters and getting involved with setting up and running teams.

Thank you for that message, Linda. Now last year, MPs voted to decriminalise a board. for women in England and Wales, meaning a woman would no longer face prosecution for ending her own pregnancy after the 24-week legal limit. The amendment to the Crime and Policing Bill, brought by Labour MP Tonya Antony Aza, was passed by a majority of 242 votes. It removes criminally liability for the woman herself, but medical professionals and others who assist an abortion outside the legal framework could still be held criminally liable. The bill is still passing through Parliament. but according to research by the Guardian newspaper since that vote in June, women are still being arrested.

The House of Lords will this afternoon debate a series of amendments, including Antonia Atson's clause and pardoning women with previous convictions. Well, I'm joined now by Guardian reporter Hannah Al-Othman, who's been looking into the issue, Hannah Morning. Remind us briefly what led

Tonya to put forward this amendment. Well, we've had sort of over the the past five or so years a number of high profile court cases. I think this wasn't really an issue that was in the public consciousness. But we have seen what appears to be an increase. One of the issues, I've been looking at this for several years now, and one of the issues is there isn't a lot of data on it. It's all been cobbled together. There isn't really a cohesive set of home office data or anything like that. But from FOI request that I've put into police forces, the Crown Prosecution Service, it does look like the number of prosecutions,

has increased in recent years. We're not exactly sure why that is, but that is something that appears to have been happening. And some of those court cases have had national attention. And there have been various moves over several years to look at reforming the law around abortion. But I think the sort of decision that Tonya took was, we may need a more modern,

abortion act for the 21st century, but we also need to solve this problem of women, often vulnerable, disadvantaged women who are being criminalised by the legislation. So that was attached to the crime and policing bill. That passed quite overwhelmingly in June. And that just means that what we won't see once that becomes law, once it clears all stages of Parliament, is women being arrested, charged, investigated, imprisoned. You submitted a freedom of information request to police forces. What exactly were you asking?

What did you find? So I asked them, that vote was in June. So I asked them between June and January, which is when I submitted the Freedom of Information Request, whether they had made any arrests under the legislation that is due to essentially be repealed. And two police forces said they had, the Met and Nottinghamshire. But then also I, you know, spoke to people working in the sector about this, this FOI and the fact that these arrests were still happening.

And they identified several more cases that they were aware of that didn't match up with the FOI data, which again showed that this is an issue that, so that we know of at least two more arrests and one further investigation, which I believe has not led to an arrest. So that shows that even the data that we're getting isn't necessarily accurate. Those forces that either refused the request or said they hadn't made any arrests. So we know it's still happening. But again, it's really difficult to assess the scale of it because police forces don't even seem to know themselves. Yeah. You approach the National Police Chiefs Council. I think it's really important for us to try and understand what they told you about why and how and when police decide to investigate.

Well, they, you know, I think often these cases, are referred to them by medical professionals. But they said, you know, they will only investigate where they believe there's evidence and there's justification for doing so. They said these cases are always treated with sensitivity, although that has been disputed by medics who have been involved in these cases,

but that's what they have said. But then I spoke to Harriet Wistrich, the CEO of the Centre Women's Justice, who you had earlier on the programme. And she said, you know, the police have to meet two tests, really, when they're considering whether to make arrests, whether to investigate. And one is the evidential threshold. But the second is whether it's in the public interest. And she questioned, if Parliament has already indicated so clearly that this shouldn't be a criminal offence, is the public interest really there to launch these investigations?

Given that the crime and policing bill hasn't become law, are police simply applying the law? as it stands? I mean, that is the law as it stands, but that was really Harriet's point that, you know, that, I mean, we all know the pressures on the police, the pressures on the criminal justice system. And the question that's being asked is, given that the law is likely changing,

that by the time these cases come to court, the law, in all likelihood, will have changed. Is it in the public interest to continue these investigations? And did you, you, You've spoken to women who this has happened to. What are some of their stories? Well, the most recent ones, the ones that have happened since June, there was a woman who was arrested.

She went to hospital. She then miscarried. I think the fetus was around 17 weeks. She was arrested at the hospital. She had unstable diabetes, which I'm told from doctors is more difficult to control often after a delivery. and her phone was confiscated, which had her monitoring software on it, that was used to control her insulin pump as well.

So she was left without that. In another case, an arrest was made over Christmas. I think it may have even been on Christmas Eve. A woman, there were safeguarding concerns, concerns around domestic abuse. She had believed she was much earlier in pregnancy when she took the medication, but it turned out she was, I think, around 24 weeks. She was arrested. Her and her children had to leave the house over Christmas.

I mean, one professional said the investigation may have even involved opening her children's Christmas presents. So that's the kind of thing that's still going on. I'm just going to read out a statement we've had here from the National Police Chiefs Council. A spokesperson said, police do not routinely investigate unexpected pregnancy loss. An investigation is only initiated where there is credible information to suggest criminal activity, and this would often be because of concerns raised from medical professionals, each case would have a set of unique factors to be assessed and investigated depending on its individual circumstances. It would be at the discretion of the senior investigating officer leading the case to determine which reasonable lines of inquiry to follow,

again depending on the merits of the specific case. We recognise how traumatic the experience of losing a child is with many complexities involved and any investigation of this nature and individuals will always be treated with the utmost sensitivity and compassion. it's important to stress that due to the individuality of each case, there is no standardised policy to investigate illegal abortions and that police will always work closely with health partners to prioritise the welfare of everyone involved. Today, the lords are looking at several amendments connected to abortion.

Can you tell us a bit more about that? Talk us through the main ones. So at last count, I think there were nine. There may be more. They may not all be put to a vote. And what the update I've had this morning is that vote might not come until the very early hours, so between sort of two and three in the morning. So I think the sort of accepted wisdom is that we're likely to see both sort of what would

be described as pro-choice and pro-life amendments voted on. So there is what's known as a strike-through amendment, which aims to undo essentially the clause that Tonya Antonyazi put in the bill. There is an amendment to telemedicine, which is this was introduced during the pandemic as an emergency measure. It was later made law that in early medical abortion, up to nine weeks and six days, you don't need to go to a clinic. You can take the pills at home.

There is an amendment to basically remove that provision from the legislation. But again, that was attempted in the Commons last year, and that failed. But then there are two amendments, which basically seek to bring the women who have already been affected under the scope of Tanya's amendment. So one is to pardon women who have been arrested, charged. And in the case where they've been investigated to have their criminal records expunge, so I interviewed a woman. This is in today's, on the website today on The Guardian. A woman we've called her Becca, who, you know, she was 19.

She was arrested. She went to a doctor, got pills. Again, she was more pregnant than she thought she was and she was arrested, had a really traumatic experience. She's a young woman. She's still only 21. She wants to train to be a midwife or a nurse for the whole of her career. That will show up potentially on an enhanced DBS check because even though she was never charged, that investigation was dropped. Abortion offenses are class as violent offenses. And then the Second Amendment is a cease and desist amendment. even if the law changes, current ongoing cases, those arrests I've just spoken about, they won't automatically be dropped, but this amendment would seek to do that. Thank you so much for speaking to me about this this morning, Hannah Al-Othman, and I'm sure we will be keeping you abreast of all of it as things develop.

I'm going to end the programme with a couple of your messages. Great piece on girls' football and team sport. I played in a master's over-30s rugby league team. I'm 55, the joy and empowerment, and importantly, the laughter of playing in a team and the positive effect on mental health is not to be underestimated. Maybe it should be socially prescribed. I'm with you. And here, the last message from Michelle in Nottingham,

in Nottingham, I'm noticing that the wood pigeons sat on the fence are cooing gently in the morning. It's beautifully hypnotic and could send me back to sleep, but it not for the cat on the windowsill, yelling at them. Join me tomorrow for more Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Jamie Bartlett, and for BBC Radio 4,

I'll be looking at how fakery took over the world. No, no, hang on, hang on, sorry. You're not Jamie Bartlett, I'm Jamie Bartlett. Oh, really? Well, who am I then? I'm afraid you're not real pal. You're just an imitation chapboard I created to help me make this series on modern fakery and why it's everywhere.

Sounds good. What's going to be in it? Well, there's a lot. 1980s professional wrestling, dodgy academics, AI psychosis, COVID-vaccines, skeptics, What's it called? Everything is fake and nobody cares with me, Jamie Bartlett. And me, Jimmy Botlett. Listen first on BBC Sounds.

For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed.

And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been no. I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is Creation Myth, available now,

wherever you get your podcasts.