Woman's Hour - 19/09/2025

Episode Date: September 19, 2025

Women's voices and women's lives - topical conversations to inform, challenge and inspire.

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Your idea of banking that's personal happens here. RBC, ideas happen here. Hello, I'm Anita Rani, and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning, and welcome to the program. The nation's favourite, clever wordsmith, Susie Dent, is here to tell me about her new book, Words for Life. So this morning we're nerding out over words, and it's going to be delicious. We're going to find out what words like Seidler mean. She'll tell us about the specific old English word

for the sorrow before dawn. We all know that feeling. I'd tell you myself, but I have no idea how to pronounce it, so we'll get Susie to do it properly. And why is Bluetooth called Bluetooth? Also this morning I'd like to hear about the quirky words you use. Are there funny things that you only say in your family? Share that word with us today and tell us the origin of that word.

Or words that you use to use that don't exist anymore. Maybe you have a question specifically for Susie about. out of word? And do you now found yourself using Gen Z or Alpha Slang? And have you ever got it very wrong? All your wordy related stories bring them into me in the usual

way. The text number is 84844. You can email me via the website or you can drop me your WhatsApp on 0300-100-444 and of course followers on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. Also, Nepal has its first female prime minister

after the government was ousted by the so-called Gen Z movement. We'll be finding out about that. And you'll hear about Northern Ireland's Bounce Festival, a showcase of disabled, deaf and neurodivergent artistic talent from the woman behind it. All of that and, of course, your thoughts about words. And anything else you want to tell me about this morning, the text number once again, 84844.

But first, if your doctor or surgeon was convicted of rape, you might well expect them to be struck off, but that isn't always the case, according to new research that's come out today. The study by the Royal College of Surgeons looked at decisions by the Medical Practitioners' Tribunal Service, which rules on misconduct cases and decides on the sanctions. In a quarter of cases, they were more lenient than recommendations

from the General Medical Council. They looked at 46 cases. In 11, the doctor was suspended instead of being struck off. Well, May Nortley, a consultant vascular surgeon is the lead author of the study and joins us now. Morning, May. Morning, thanks for having me on the programme. Absolutely our pleasure. Tell me why did you decide to carry this out? Well, I think my co-researchers and I noticed, first of all, anecdotal cases and news headlines, as I'm sure others have, of doctors who had been proved guilty of significant sexual assault or misconduct with alarmingly, lenient sanctions or similar offences but widely different sanctions. So what we wanted to do was understand are these cases outliers or are they representative

of tribunal decision making and indeed how are these decisions actually being made? So let's understand that because I guess a lot of people might think that the General Medical Council makes these decisions but that's not the case, is it? No, that's correct. So doctors might be referred to the General Medical Council. And the General Medical Council will conduct an investigation and decide which doctors they feel may be impaired to practice as doctors and refer those on to a tribunal process, which is run by the Medical Practitioners Tribunal Service. And what were your findings? So our findings were, as you said, in up to a quarter of cases, the sanction actually awarded was less lenient than that proposed of the GMC.

And I think that that is one of the most significant findings. but also, you know, looking at the demographics of the cases, they were all male, 80% or 83% actually had positions of relative seniority, so consultants, general practitioners or registrars. So positions of authority, about over 20% had additional leadership roles, so leadership roles in education or management or committees. So I think that reflects really an abuse of power. And I mentioned again that this 11, in the 46 cases that you looked at, in 11 the doctor was suspended instead of being struck off. Can he tell us a bit more about those? Yeah, so in those cases, the GMC will propose,

the GMC bring a case to the tribunal and it's the GMC versus the doctor. So the GMC legal team will propose what they feel is an appropriate sanction. and in nearly 24% of those cases, the tribunal panel did not award a sanction that was as severe as that proposed by the GMC. And in fact, if you look at the other way around, in no cases was the tribunal decision more severe than that proposed by the GMC. So there is some discordance and perceived an actual factual leniency in the outcomes awarded by the tribunals. And how serious were the cases? So yeah, I mean, I think that was the most shocking thing. What I didn't prepare myself and certainly my co-researchers didn't prepare ourselves

or how traumatic it would be reading these trimunal transcripts. You know, we each divided them and then double verified each one, but actually reading each one was difficult. There were severe cases of sexual assault, physical violence, concurrent drug misuse, offences against children. So, I mean, what was shocking to us was the significance and the severity of the sexual misconduct that are being heard at tribunals, which are essentially not designed, they're not especially designed to be hearing cases of sexual misconduct.

They are tribunals designed to deal with all types of misconduct, including things like inadequate documentation or, you know, fraud or drug misuse in isolation. These are not specialist trained panels for sexual misconduct. So why do you think there is this disconnect between the GMC and the MPTS? I mean, I think one really obvious incongruency is in the GMC good medical practice guidance. It's recognised that in cases of sexual misconduct or bullying and harassment, that reporting of this can be quite delayed because victims are usually quite worried about scrutiny, about retribution. and that's recognised in GMC good medical practice guidance,

but the MPTS sanctions guidance actually has, as one of the mitigating factors which can lessen sanction delayed reporting. So that's one big discrepancy. We found several other elements. So the MPTS guidance requires sexual motivation to be proved. And we find that quite concerning because we know that in the majority of cases, sexual assault, harassment is not sexually. motivated. It is an assertion of power. It is a tool to devalue and humiliate the person.

So proving sexual motivation is problematic in itself. Aggravating factors, so things like grooming, manipulation, coercion, persistent and repeated behaviours, and most importantly, harassment during patient care or during live operations, putting patients at risk, are not recognised as aggravated aggravating factors within that sanctions guidance. So even if the panel, on a personal level, recognise these elements, they have no way of formally feeding it into their decision-making. During live operations. During live operations.

And then lastly, mitigating factors, so things that lessen sanction, the mitigating factors lessened are things like insight, expressions of remorse and remediation. But the problem with that is that there are no defined thresholds for meeting adequacy. And these things are very easily coached by legal teams. And in fact, there are even commercial entities. There's one that actually states the right response can lead to less severe sanctions or in some cases no sanctions being imposed. And we look specifically at insight and remediation

and how both of these can lead to better outcomes. So it's very easy to coach someone to tick a box. The Medical Practitioner's Tribunal Service or the MPTS told us in a statement they'll be publishing new guidance at the end of this month and they say it'll draw together existing guidance and recent case law as well as best practice from other jurisdictions to assist tribunals in reaching consistent and well-reasoned decisions. Reassuring, May?

Well, I think what this work hopes to do, I hope it aids the MPTS to reflect on whether it is actually delivering its aims of, one, protecting the public, two, ensuring doctors meet professional standards, and three, promoting public confidence in the medical profession. Because as you've heard, I think, you know, cases that we've seen allowing rapists, sexual predators and those who use manipulation and coercion to return as practicing doctors

brings this into question. And the GMC says it has zero tolerance and proactive approach to all forms of sexual misconduct. In a statement it said, in cases of sexual misconduct, we will often ask for the doctor to be struck off the medical register, where we feel the sanctions applied by the independent tribunal are too lenient, we can and do appeal. A significant proportion of our appeals are successful. and results in stronger sanctions.

Did you look at the appeals? We did, but they're not fully published. There's not full data on which cases are appealed. But, you know, to their credit, the GMC and the MPTS have been in consultation. They are trying to improve this whole process. But I think having this data and this work, I hope, will give them really key information

on where things are perhaps going wrong. And we really need to recognise that this is a highly specialist area that needs very specific expertise. And that is echoed in the police force Operation Coteria, which acknowledges that we need specialist investigative teams and specialist research and evidence-based training to be handling these kind of cases. What do you think your findings mean for women and their trust in medical practice? I think it's worrying, and that's what drove this research forward. I think any woman who is a victim or, you know, woman or man who is currently a victim of sexual assault or harassment by a doctor, is going to see those headlines. And the effect that's going to have is that you're not going to come forward and report.

Absolutely not. And so I think the system has to change, because otherwise we're in danger of having a system that enables this behaviour. and actually disempowers and silences victims. So what else needs to happen other than new guidance? So, as I said, I think there does need to be training and specialist expertise for the teams investigating both at the GMC and at the MPTS and the tribunal members themselves. One of the findings and our interviews with the victim witnesses are that there's a huge imbalance

between the support that defending doctors get and victim witnesses get. So a defending doctor will get a full legal representation with strategic planning, video reconstructions and photos to present at the tribunal, whereas victim witnesses are attending as witnesses. So they're not entitled to legal representation. And at the moment, there is no routine advocacy. So in the criminal proceedings, you would have an independent sexual violence advisor, but there is no advocacy.

So there's a huge imbalance. And I think the recognition that if you are vulnerable, you are not going to be able to optimally interpret questions or answer questions when you're being cross-examined fairly aggressively in front of our tribunal. So I think victims have to be far more supported in this process. And what about you, May? You've done the research.

You've put it out there. You said how shocking it was reading these statements. And now you're bringing it out into the public. What will you continue? What will your role now be? I think I will continue to campaign with, you know, my fantastic team that have done this work with me. This work is so important and, you know, I'm very grateful that you're covering it on Women's Hour because we need to highlight this. And, you know, for me, all I want is meaningful change because I don't want people to have to suffer through this system.

And I want it to be an, I want institutional safety. And I want healthcare working environments to be safer primarily for patients, but also for, for for the people who are working within it. May Nautly, thank you very much for speaking to me this morning. And if you've been affected by anything you've heard, you can go to the BBC's Action Line website where you'll find support links. And we have had a statement from the MPTS thing.

It is important that doctors have a fair hearing that thoroughly assesses all the evidence presented by both the GMC and the doctor and that the tribunal comes to an impartial decision. We will soon publish a new suite of guidance for tribunals covering all aspects of our hearings. It will draw together existing guidance and recent case law as well as best practice from other jurisdictions to assist tribunals in reaching consistent and well-reasoned decisions

and a statement from the GMC saying we take a zero tolerance and proactive approach to all forms of sexual misconduct. Now, are you a fan of words? Their meanings and origins. Yes, we are. Well, lexicographer Susie Dent, best known as the Queen of Dictionary Corner

on Channel 4's Countdown has created a whole year's worth of words, most of which you most probably never knew existed in a freshly published almanac. It's called Words for Life and each day you can read an entry, digest its meaning and maybe laugh at its sound, a daily fascination it says on the cover. Maybe it's going to be brilliant for, if you love a pub quiz for me, or just like pretending you know something. Susie, welcome. It's lovely to be here.

It's so great to have you here. This book is excellent, by the way. Oh, thank you. You did tell me just before that you've been keeping it in your Lou, which I am not offended by. I think it's a perfect Lou book, actually, because you can dip into, as you say, every day. It's an entry for every single day,

and I've told you also that I'm not going to look at the one for my birthday. Yes, you've told me this which got me extremely worried. But it's good. It's a good one. What's today's word? Let's start there. Okay, so today's one is an old epithet, an old nickname for a politician.

have to say politicians don't come off particularly well in the dictionary, which is already full of insults as opposed to compliments. But a quaker wager is today's word. And a quokka wager was once one of those toy puppets, wooden puppets whose limbs would kind of flail around when you just sort of jerk the string. And a puppet politician essentially is now a quokka wager. Oh, we like that word. It's just got such a brilliant sound. But yes, anyone who is subservient to someone else in power. A few of those around possibly. Quaker Wadgett. And it sounds really rude as well, so we like that. Where did the idea for this one come from? When did you start writing it and all the research?

How did it, how did this book have come about? I am such an eavesdropper. So my whole life has been spent just tuning into other people's conversations and writing the results down. So my life is just littered with notebooks. And so I'm just a kind of linguistic magpie, really. I swoop on these things and then I take these words off and look at them from every angle. And so it's just a joy to bring them together and share with other people because I have so many favourites. And so many of them, as you say, from the historical dictionary. And perplexingly, they just disappeared. I have no idea why. But it's a sort of one woman attempt to bring them back. Come on. We love it. We've got a lot of support. You've got an army of people behind you, including our listeners, 84844. I'm going to start reading out some of your messages in a minute. But you just use the word eavesdropper. Yes. Where does that come from?

Okay, so the eavesdropper was originally someone who stood beneath the eavesdrop or the eaves drip, as it was once called, of their house. So they were just standing below the gutter and tuning into their neighbours' conversation, essentially, because they would be slightly out of view and covertly listening in. So the eaves drip was where the water would drip down and it provided, you know, if you ducked behind it, it provided a nice little place. I told you all this was going to be delicious. This is brilliant. where do you get all the words from if they've disappeared how do you find them well the OED is will always be my desert island book it is oh it's just full of magic and drama and adventure and the most incredible journeys a word that I know we we overuse but honestly when it comes to words they are incredible and you can map the very first meaning of a word and take it all the way through to the present day and it's just a joy no you can use the word journey but it makes sense and what I really enjoyed was was the words that different languages have

that we don't exist in our own language because it's so specific because language tells us so much more about, you understand a culture through language as we know. So can you give us some delicious words? Actually, the one I said in the intro, which I don't actually know how to pronounce, which is the word for the sorrow before dawn.

Oh, yes. Well, that's from Old English. Yes. And it's Ucht Kiaru. And I just find so much reassurance in the fact. that a thousand years ago people had the same experience of waking up in the dark hours and problems just loom unimaginably large and you just think, I can't, I can't cope with these. And then the sun rises, dawn breaks and they shrink back into proportion and you think

it's okay. Oh, the grief of the pre-dawn essentially. The 9th of April I particularly like as well. I'm just going to open my book. If you got it in front of you there. Okay, let me find this one. Ninth of April. Is that your birthday? This is your word. No, it's not my birthday, but as you say, other cultures and so specific, and you see where their preoccupations are. And I think a lot of people will know this. It's a finished word meaning pants drunk.

Okay, so it's Kalsa Rikeni, and it is the act of drinking alone at home in your underwear. I don't know why that one let out. I'm not sure why. Maybe it's because it's Friday and I'm planning my evening. Yeah, why not? I need to ask you about the tricks suffix, this is woman's hour. How much was it used in the past? And what's left of it? Yeah, it's a really interesting one. So predominantly you will find when it comes to occupation's jobs, you will find

that the male name is the default and the female. There's just a bit of an add-on. But the difference in status is also quite remarkable. So you have a governor, which is somebody who is of considerable power. The female equivalent, the governess, who of course was fairly subservient in households. Similarly, master. And then you have a mistress which inevitably took on kind of sexual connotations. Even the word hussy actually originally meant a housewife. But again, promiscuity kind of crept in. But this tricks suffix was applied in Roman times to female barbers or editors. You had an editrix. You had a career tricks. You had an avatrix later on. And the only one that has survived is dominatrix. Love it. The only one.

It's strong, it's strong. But, yeah, it just, if you look at, you know, epithets for women through the ages, you'll see they are the recipient to the male gaze as opposed to the ones with power. Could we bring it back? Which one? All of these? Yeah, or just sort of, can you bring old words back? I suppose it's just the usage.

No, you definitely can. And some of them are really making headways. So there's a lot of momentum behind a word that I'm always banging on about, which is Epricity, which is the warmth of the sun on a winter's day. Oh, yeah. There's now a restaurant called Epricity. where the forecasters are talking about it, not just, no, not just because of me. I mean, so many people love this word.

And it was recorded only once in 1628 until the last few years. Where was it recorded in 1620? It was in a glossary from the 17th century. It was like a mayfly. It came and then went in a single day. And now it's back. So I just am delighted by that. So yes, there's every chance for a usage.

Words can come back. I think it is you. I'd love to think I had that power. Have you really been on countdown for 30 years? I think I'm in my 34th. How is that possible? I know. It's because we've all kind of grown up with it, me included, really.

But, yeah, I used to say it was just me in the clock, and then the clock was replaced. So I'm the oldest person on set, for sure. And is this a true story that you're actually working behind the scenes and they said, go on, have a go in front of the camera, but you said no initially? Oh, yes, I wasn't working at all in tell you. I was working for the dictionaries, Oxford Dictionaries,

and they use an Oxford Dictionary on the show. And my boss said, I think, you know, they need more people to do this. because many, many people went and acted as the word referees. And yes, I did say no quite a few times because that wasn't where I imagined myself. You know, I've always had people below the radar. And he was very persuaded in the end, told me it would be good for my job.

And honestly, thank you, Simon, if you're listening, because I'm so grateful for that, yeah, all those years later. And do you ever reflect on the sort of, A, the popularity of the program, but also you and just how, you know, well, it's our obsession with words and language, but it's specifically when you tell us, your clever brain that is able to use all this information. I'm just so lucky that I've been able to be a mouthpiece. I mean, I always laugh when people say the nation's favorite lexicographer

because I think, how many others do you know? So lexicographers need more profile. It's the best gig in the world, honestly, I promise you. I would recommend it to anyone. I mean, I love words, but I can't, I just can't. Do you have a photographic memory? Are you able to retain information in a way that others can't? Only when it comes to language.

And I wouldn't say photographics, just that I'm with these things all the day. I live and breathe them. So, no, in other areas, I wish I could retain every fact. But no, there's something mystical about words that just sort of, you know, not to be cheesy. I just, no, I agree with you. I agree with you. Just reading this book is mystical. Even this conversation, and I am going to get to the messages because there's lots coming in.

Why do you think that is? What is it about words? Well, they're just, obviously, they're incredibly powerful. They are accompanied by so many sort of, you know, bodily gestures. that they have just eloquence, history, and as I say, so much, just so much to them. So every word has been to so many different places, has been in the mouths of so many different people. And I like to think that they're sort of touched by every single one of us. And English is a democracy.

So famously, we don't have an authority saying, you can't use this or you can use this. It's down to all of us. Yeah, and English is used all over the world. Yes. And also we use words and don't even think about them because when I open the book and you talk about the origin of Bluetooth I've never been like to swear is Bluetooth Of course we just all know the word Bluetooth

Yeah and you think you think oh it's someone just made it up Yes some random thing But no actually the the inventors I guess The Bluetooth were inspired by a king King Harold Gormson who lived in the 10th century And essentially united various Danish tribes with Norwegian neighbours And so they thought, he's a really good model for a technology that unites different devices.

And not only that, but if you look at the logo for Bluetooth, you will see the Roons for H&B for Harold Bluetooth. It's good, it's good. So I should say it was nicknamed Bluetooth because he had a prominent dead tooth. That was why he got that. Now we can never get that image out of our minds now. I did read that.

Okay, I'm going to get to some of these messages. Sue's from Dorset says, Hello, two words that my family say I introduced are Skricky, which means grumpy, irritable, bad-tempered, etc. There's also a related noun, Skrick, meaning arguments or disagreement. We sometimes forget that no one else will understand them and use them in public, but I don't think we could or would give them up now.

No, it's so important. Just as teen slang kind of unites our teenagers and the whole idea of the outsiders won't understand them, it's the same within families, whether it's our regional, local words and our accents, but also the words that we come up with his families. And they're so important as a sort of tribal shorthand, really. So I love that.

And was it, it's scryk? Yeah. Yeah, it sounds scratchy. I think it's a good one. It's a great one. Anita, a word we always used when feeling humiliated or made to feel small in public by something said by another what was Sneeped. Ooh, okay.

I believe this to be a North Staffordshire dialect. I love that. It's a bit like snipped, maybe, if it's been cut off. but I have not heard of that one I will add it to my notebook Bay says my daughter calls me Motherene which I love. It suggests she thinks I'm divine all knowing which of course I am

Of course you are Charlotte in Whitley That's really lovely isn't I called you Bay it's actually Charlotte in Whitley Bay I just read Bay at the bottom I'm sure she'll take that Another one here As a child I used to call all breakfast cereals mongits

I don't know why But mongits was taken up by my family and I've continued to use it I'm now 72, and my son, Tom, used it for years, including when he stayed over at his friend's house, age about 10, the friend's parents were mystified at breakfast time. I'm not surprised. That's great, just making up your own language. Do you have made up words? Well, made up words, but also ones that I've inherited from the historical dictionary.

So, for example, sausages in my house will always be what the Victorians used to call them bags of mystery because you never know what's in them. That's an egg. And eggs are cackle farts as well. That was another old term for an egg. So, yeah, I like to borrow, borrow from the past. And you've written fiction as well, Susie. Does having such a rich vocabulary to draw from make it difficult? Yes, just because people expect me to be absolutely perfect.

And I'm as fallible as the next person. And, you know, there's this lovely category of language called egg-corns, where we sort of slips of the ear or slips at the tongue, honestly. I am equally responsible for those. But, yeah, but it's just also a lovely thing. And my novel drew on lexicography. It's set in a dictionary department. And I think lexicographers are word detectives.

You know, there's so much, there's a lot of parallels between them. We talk about hunting for evidence and clues and footprints and things. So it was a nice, you know, parallel world to explore. And the book is an absolute joy. Do you want to tell you what your birthday one is? Oh, I just wanted to save it. But go on, go on, no, no, no. Let's get you to tell me.

Yeah, that's even better. Well, it's Libro-Cubicularist, which I know. is a little bit clunky, but it's as simple that you look worried. No, I love it. It's simply someone who loves to read in bed. Is that you? Yes. Perfect.

With the other one, what was the Finnish one? Calta Rick Henney. Both together, yes. Drinking in my pants and reading in bed. Wonderful. Oh, what a combination. Susie Dent, thank you so much for coming in. Always a pleasure.

Thank you. And if you've got a word and definition that you'd like to share, please get in touch with us. It's 84844. Now. There's been a growing concern in the fashion industry about the increasing prominence of what industry experts say are very thin European models becoming the beauty standard.

While there's been a push for body positivity and diversity in the past, many including Edward Ennful, the former editor-in-chief of British Vogue, and our questioning whether the rise in ultra-thin models signals a shift back to outdated ideals. So are we seeing the fashion world revert back to its old beauty norms? And if we are, what impact does it have on the industry and the way in which women view themselves? Well, to discuss this, I'm joined by Alex Follerton, who's a fashion writer, author and stylist. Welcome to Women's Hour, Alex. Thank you for me.

May I just say, I really am enjoying your lovely Icelandic cardi that you've got on. Beautiful. I'm going to have to take it off in a minute. It's going to be hot today. I'm with you, though. Is it hot? Is it cold? I don't know.

My nits are out. But anyway, let's talk about London Fashion Week, because it's just started. And Edward Ennful, the ex-vogue editor, is warning that fashion is reverting back to old beauty norms. He says that super thin and European is often seen as the beauty norm again. Why do you think he said this? What's happening? Because very clearly, I mean, my job is spent looking at the models walking down the catwalks. And we saw a peak after 2020 and BLM, when shows started again. you could see that designers were considering race and diversity,

and there are a lot more women of colour, and particularly black models, which was brilliant to see. And then as body positivity came more to the fore, you could see people doing more than just tokenism in their casting. But as I analyse shows, so I look at trends, I'm like, okay, well, yes, everybody's done brown, everybody's done a midi skirt or whatever. I also see the lack of colour and shapes beyond kind of like a traditional skinny white norm

which is wrong and heartbreaking and we did it so why aren't we doing it more? Well what's happened when did it start to change? You've been going to London Fashion Week for the last 15 years it's your job to keep an eye across all of this all the trends and also the kind of shift along with culture like you mentioned BLM and you know and what happened after After that, what's happened now? What's happened recently? Why is this trend reverting?

So fashion is not just a little pocket. It's not just a little microcosm. It does, it is influenced by everything that we see in society. So at the moment, there is a lot of tension politically, race, you know, what went on at the weekend with riots. And there is the financial markets and how we're all struggling a little bit. it. There is a big luxury downturn because people don't have enough money or as much money as they used to spend on luxury goods. So designers are playing it more safe. They're thinking, okay, you see it with creativity. They are going back to simpler things. There isn't as much kind of innovation in the design. And at the same time, they're thinking, okay, we know that a white, skinny model will sell. Let's just do that. Let's just go back to that, which is blinkered

and wrong, but it kind of does reflect the whole of the financial landscape, the political landscape, and also the celebrity landscape, because you can't ignore the weight loss jab epidemic, you know, from schoolmums at school gates to celebrities. Let's talk about that. So the rise in weight loss drugs and how much of a contributing factor you think this is. Are you seeing, as well as sort of European models back on and thin, are they extra? Is it extra skinny? Yes. And when I'm casting for a job, I mean, I am privileged, A in colour and size, but you look at and age, I'm 44, which is sort of a good age to be buying clothes, but there is so much weight put on the age of models and the size

and you're casting models and you're thinking, these girls are too skinny. I need to see more reflection of what the end viewer is going to be reflected in, i.e. women that aren't a prepubescent, almost skinny model. What does this say about, and I know it's about economics, you know, and ultimately these brands need to make money, and that's what this is all about, but what is it say about their values? And if they were doing one thing and saying, you know, we are changing the industry, what were they just paying lip service?

What do people have to say about it, do you think? Honestly, I think that there are so many brands that should do better. And it is wrong to be ignoring what you were championing for a trend. Now, everything, fashion gets a lot of bad rap for trends. Because, you know, from a sustainability point of view, the fact that brown is the new black, but then last winter of burgundy was the new black, you know, we need to not be, communicating in that way that makes people shop for new things, then get rid of them and then leave a problem on the planet.

That's it's all interlinked, it's all intersectional. So within that, there are trends in in politics and finances, there are trends in music, there's trends in art and architecture. So trends will go up and down, but being aware of them, which is what the fashion industry does best, when you see a trend coming that isn't particularly helpful to people's mental health, people's body image. You need to fight against that.

So to work harder and in any anti-racist or allyship work, you need to think, well, I have an opportunity to cast a bigger model or a woman of color. Because even if one person sees that results in a magazine, in an ad campaign on a catwalk and thinks, oh, okay, maybe there is a place for me. we know that you can't become what you don't see. And if one person thinks that maybe they could do that,

they could lead to an amazing job. You know, Edward himself is black and was an asylum seeker. Yeah. So he fought hard to get into that business. And when he took over at Vogue, he single-handedly pretty much changed the industry in a way by changing simply what the models that Vogue was using. Yes.

Because he saw it, yeah. Yeah, that should continue with the current editor, I hope. But we just need to work harder. And what about the way in which women will start to view themselves? Well, we know it's dangerous. And with, I don't know, the skinny, naughty's culture and the size zero celebrity thing, how dangerous that was to women who are now kind of still shaking off, you know, maybe disordered eating and body image, it doesn't help.

It just is not the best way to help us care about our society. And I think... Yeah, sorry, carry on. I was going to say a lot of it needs to come from beyond performative. So remembering that models are the end result that we see in ad campaigns, edit warioles and on the catwalk, but who is behind the scenes in the fashion houses and the brat? Yeah. And there aren't enough hires of people of colour, of people of body diversity in different sizes, being in the room when those decisions are made and saying, hold on a minute, everybody is white in this ad campaign.

Well, we've got one black model. Is that enough? We've got one token plus size, which reverts to the tokenism that was before 2020. Alex Fullerton, thank you very much for speaking to me. I feel slightly depressed after that conversation. Lots needs to change. But thank you. It does.

Thank you, Alex, for talking to us and come back and we'll continue the conversation if and when anything changes. 84844 is the number to text. Now, we'd like to hear from you if you've experienced burnout or feel like you're heading towards it. Were you ambitious and keen to do well, working long hours, always on call? Or perhaps you were a leader spinning too many plates. Somewhere along the way did it all get too much

and you had to take a break or step away from your career that you imagined for yourself. If this sounds familiar, we would love to hear your story. story. The text number is 84844 or email the program by going to our website. Now, 73-year-old Susheila Kirki has recently been sworn in as Nepal's interim prime minister, the first woman to hold that office. This is after anti-corruption protests when Gen Z movement, as it's so being called, ousted the government and more than 70 people were killed in the clashes with riot police. Normally, the position is held by a member of parliament, but Susie.

Sheila isn't a politician. She was, in fact, the country's chief justice before her retirement. Well, to find out why she was appointed and why people think she can make a difference, I'm joined by Sanjay Dackel, a journalist with the BBC Nepali service, and he joins us from Kathmandu. Sanjay, welcome to Woman's Hour. What sparked the protests that led to Sheila Kirkki being appointed Prime Minister? What's been happening?

Well, Nepal has gone through several political RP. in the past two decades from the removal of monarchy in 2008 to the promulgation of new constitution in 2015. It also suffered tragic earthquake in 2015, as you would remember. People had expected a new constitution to deliver, deliver them from abject poverty that Nepal suffers from. But it continued to suffer from bad governance. Corruption was widely felt to be you know, very widespread and endemic, and they were simmering discontent among, particularly the youths. Every day around 2,000 Nepalese youths left their country in search of jobs overseas, and the remittance money they sent back home. That was what was holding the economy together.

There were many high-profile corruption cases, but the cases did not proceed as per people's expectations. And in recent months, you know, there were also trends by youths in social media of, you know, producing memes of so-called Napo babies of young people, kids of influential people, politicians showing off their wealth, and that also must have triggered some kind of resentment among many youths. And then in the first week of September, what happened was the government of the day, they banned 26 social media sites. including YouTube, WhatsApp, Facebook, Instagram, and these were widely used by particularly the youths. And that was done because they did not register with the government's communication ministry.

And then, you know, they failed to register with the government's ministry. And there was a lot of debate in the public that this ban was not, you know, not proper, not appropriate. this banning on top of already simmering discontent triggered huge protests on September 8th. Yeah, what happens? On that day, youths known as Gen Z were calling for peaceful movements. They were saying that they just want good governance to prevail, and they called for peaceful protests. But later on it turned quite out of control,

and there were a lot of police shooting, and 19 people, lost their lives. So, you know, on the following day, there was a huge, I mean, protests all around the country, particularly in the Kathmandu. And it dramatically changed the situation and, you know, the government resigned. But it failed to quell the situation. Later on that day, the army had to step in. And after three days of consultations facilitated by the president, army and taken part by representatives of Zengi movement, Susila Karki, was appointed as the new prime minister. We'll get to Susceola and find out who she is.

But were people surprised that this came from Gen Z? And what was specifically the involvement of young women? Before September 8, few people had expected the situation to change so dramatically and so fast, so quickly. There was widespread discontent against the political leadership of the day. But these all added up apparently and the government, which had almost, two-third of support in the parliament had to go. And the question you were asking about the involvement of young women. Yes, in videos and pictures, one could see lots of young women also

joining the protest movement. There are some young girls representing the Zenzi movement also, and they were seen during the consultations in the forming of the new government too. So yes, they were quite involved. So the new interim Prime Minister, So Sheila Kirki, Why has she been chosen? Tell us about her. She is the first female Chief Justice of Nepal. She was appointed as the Chief Justice back in 2016.

After she retired from the Chief Justice position in 2017, she was living a retired life. As you mentioned earlier, she's 73 years old. She has had a quite clean image, and she has been quite vocal even in her retired life on issues of good governance and she's a wife of a person who was associated with the largest democratic

party of Nepal also and she's seen as a clean person right so she's so she's not a politician and she was the Chief Justice retired since 2017 so how unusual is this it's very unusual because you know

in the current constitution of Nepal only the member of parliament can become prime minister She's not a member of parliament She has become prime minister By the president Who has invoked this authority As the Garden of the Constitution to appoint her

So it is unusual But this was an unusual time also After the riots, absolutely Is there an element of the men Haven't been able to sort this problem out So let's bring in a woman Yeah, there could be some element of that also because there have been, you know, we have seen lots of prime ministers,

but no women prime minister as yet. So probably many people thought that a woman would be better able to handle the situation. I think we should hear from her. Here's a clip of Sir Sheila for the BBC. This situation came actually by the agitation movement of a student. And their demand was collapse of. government, good governments, anti-corruption, three things was demand. And for that six, they have demanded a race election. And we have decided to do, regulate the election within

six months. I'm doing and I'm trying for that. So that was So Sheila Koki's voice and that was an exclusive interview with your BBC Nepali colleague, Benita Dahal. What challenges is she going to face? Basically, the most important silence she's going to face is to hold the elections on time. And for that to happen, she will have to put the law and

under order situation under control, reassured the public because people have been quite fearful after these riots. And she will also have to take into confidence to a certain extent the political parties because they will have to take part

in the elections. So major challenges will be election, law and order, and reassuring the people. And also restoration of many damaged properties. Yeah. She says she's only going to do the job for six months. Why six months? When she was appointed, she was given the mandate to hold elections within six months. And the first public comment she made after becoming prime minister,

she said that she had not wished for this position at all. And she wants to do it as soon as they can and let the elected parliament take over. And so she was quite focusing on completing the task within six months. And what's the mood in the country now? Well, people are still coming to terms with what just happened in last 10 days. Lots of fear, apprehension, hope and uncertainties. The mood is mixed today. Nepal also marked the 10th anniversary of its new. constitution. It is a national day today here. The mood was somber. Our hope and anxiety,

the emotions are still raw. I'm sure. Sanjay Adakal, thank you very much for joining me live from Kathmandu. 84844. Now, poet Nikita Gill joined Nula earlier this week, talking about her latest book called Hikate the Witch, retelling the story of the Greek goddess in verse. Nula asked her why she wanted to write about Hikate. I think Hikati, is one of the goddesses that is lesser known because she doesn't fit into the patriarchal standard of what a goddess is supposed to be because they want goddesses to be pretty even in power, right?

And they don't want them to be too powerful because that would conflict with the notion of what a god is. Whereas Hikati challenges all of that. She's a goddess of liminal spaces. She's a goddess of darkness. She's a child of the underworld. And she has this power that could essentially topple the hierarchy of them.

the gods. And that is where she isn't known as much. Because what place does a goddess like that have in the structure of what the gods have built? Now, the Olympians have an amazing PR machine, which works for them. They really do. I mean, Zeus's PR machine is out there. We all know Zeus. I mean, Sabrina Carpenter's new song has him in there, right? Like, I'm just saying. So these other gods, these Titan gods, especially the gods of the underworld, they don't get enough screen time. to hear more from the brilliant Nikita search for the Women's Hour episode from the 17th of September on BBC sounds. Loads of you getting in touch wanting to talk to me about words. My four-year-old son, he's now 44, pointed out a large flock of starlings and said,

Mummy, look at that huge flutter round. We all think the word is much more descriptive than the official word murmuration and used it for 40 years. Eva Smith, we love it. flutter around. A family word. As a small child, my little sister, was knocked her feet by a wave, knocked off her feet by a wave, which broke over her head. She came up spluttering, saying she'd been oranged. We realised she meant squashed. Confusing the word orange with squash. That's very cute. Orangeed is still used by us over 40 years later, meaning knocked off your feet by a wave. And Fran says, our favourite family word is what we are we.

What we are we? My young daughter woke up after a long journey and trying to ask what's happening and oh no, where are we came out as what we are we? I love it. We use the word when we're feeling in a middle, which sounds like I'm in a bit of the middle, just reading the word out, which is quite often for me in my menopausal brain fog. I hear your sister. Keep your words coming in. I might try and read a few more before the end of the program. Now, Edel Murphy is the CEO of but University of Atypical, an organisation that develops and promotes the work of deaf, disabled and neurodivergent artists in Northern Ireland. She's also the force behind their annual arts festival bounce, which will be taking place in Belfast, Derry, London Derry in early October, featuring many female performers and artists. Edel herself has had disabilities since she was a child, but did not identify as disabled until later in life.

And she joins me now to tell me more. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Hello, Anita. Thank you so much for having me on. Absolutely our pleasure. Tell us about the Bounce Festival. Bounce is the annual showcase of disabled people in Northern Ireland in the arts. And we have a packed program over four days, as you said, in Derry, London Derry in Belfast. And we're really excited this year to have a theme called Not Just, that is provoking a lot of discussion already. So it's around labels and disability and battle. against tokenism and siloing of people with disabilities. And we have artists across many different art forms, including dance and drama and poetry and some comedy as well. So we'd really invite people to come and see us.

And you lead this organisation. Yeah. University of very typical. You have a disability yourself. And so this is personal. Yes. It's absolutely personal. I grew up in Donegal in Ireland and moved to Belfast as a student

and worked for some time in the Arts Council where I met a lady called Chris Ledger who subsequently came to the Arts and Disability Forum as we were called back then. She inspired me to recognise that I had a disability that it wasn't something to be ashamed of and becoming very involved with University of Atypical I came to be very proud of who I am as a person with a disability

because of those people like Chris Ledger and the artists who are involved in this organisation and how I saw them as very positive representations of people with disabilities and really allowed me to be myself. Well, so what was happening before that when you were in rural county Zonagall before you moved to Belfast at 18? So you weren't identifying as someone with a disability before then. Tell me about your life.

No, I didn't meet many people who openly said they were disabled. It was something that was said as a slur quite often and not specific to Dungy Goal or anything like that. And the community that I grew up with was a very positive community. But disability generally wasn't talked about. It was considered something to be overcome and not be proud of. So you were hiding it? Oh, absolutely. Trying to make sure it wasn't something that was talked about or that I brought forward as something, even when in applications for university, for example, are you disabled? I said no when I was put on the sixth floor of the halls of residence. So for many, many years, I felt it was something that I needed to hide. Yes. So how did your life change afterwards?

My life changed considerably in my early 30s when I realized that I was someone who was encountering significant problems because of my disability. But meeting Chris Ledger, coming to the University of Atypical, becoming involved in the Bounce Arts Festival and becoming someone who was very proud of who I was in terms of my disability and other aspects of my identity. was really important. I'm going back to that in terms of people who are mothers and disabled, people who are deaf and disabled, people who are from the queer community and disabled. And people who have sex lives and are disabled

are all represented in this programme. We have rapture and repulsion, for example, that's headed up by Julie McNamara and Denny Francis and they're coming over to the Crescent Arts Centre in Belfast as part of Bounce and they'll be talking about things pushing the boundary of people's ideas around sex and sexuality. Well, I'm interested to know why you specifically said that, as we know, is because of people's, I guess, what people expect shattering illusions and stereotypes. Absolutely, and we need to do that.

And for me, overcoming the idea of disability, being a negative thing, opened up my own opportunity to enter into relationships with people and have, I'm now engaged to be married, which is something I'm really proud of. But also the stories of our two other artists, two of our other artists, Helen Hall and Linda Ferrin, who are disabled dancers, they'll be talking about the perception of motherhood and through dance, in a conversation through dance called Tales of the Mother. And that's a wonderful new commission by the Arts Council of Northern Ireland

by two prominent disabled dancers in Northern Ireland. So they're pushing the perception of how mothers who are disabled are perceived. And we have a lovely one as well called Falkloor Fue-Mukhommis, which is Disability Dictionary. And it's challenging the language in Irish around disabilities. And there's an Irish speaker that's something I've encountered as well because it's very archaic language around disability that hasn't evolved. And so two of our artists, so Sonny Callie and Billy Mills, who are Irish language speakers, are running a workshop on that. And it's this intersectional approach to looking at people with disabilities, hearing people with disabilities and understanding what disability is.

and that's what the festival is all about and you perfectly brought the start of the programme and connected it to the end of the programme by bringing the importance of language and words into this because we started by talking to Susie Dent and we should have kept to hear I'm sure she would have had something to say on that and so you're going to be shuttling back and forth

between the two sites are you oh I'm really excited to be going down to Derry London Derry I'm from the north-west and Donegal so close connections there it's a great city and based in Belfast so we'll be coming back up to Belfast for many of the activities and events from the Friday onwards.

But I'd encourage anybody who's in Derry, London Derry or in Belfast or from further afield, please do check us out. We're looking for contributors for next year as well. Great. Get it out there. Brilliant, Adele. I want to wish you best of luck and I hope you're massively oversubscribed for all of it.

Thank you so much. That was Edel Murphy. And Bounce 2025 is taking place in Belfast and Derry, London Derry, as she said, over four days. Get it in your diaries from the 2nd to the 5th of October. I'm going to end the programme with some of your lovely messages because there's so many coming through. My then four-year-old son delighted in seeing some baby ducks and called them quacklings, the name has stuck for the past 21 years. In my family, we use the word smeech to describe smoky air, especially in the kitchen.

and snurp. I'm going to use some of these to describe burnt bits on food. The two may be related as neither my grandma. No mother were great cooks, and that's Joanne Cunningham. Hazel emailed in to say, if our clothes, particularly trousers, had not been put on properly and needed adjusting, we were strussed. I have several words I heard as a child used in my family in the 40s, brocky meaning acne, cockstiddle over, a forward roll, kishy meaning messy or sticky, nice. And someone else has said, Sparrow blasted from my Wigan-born mum. If you're out in this weather, you'll get sparrow blasted.

That's it from me. Thank you for getting in touch with those delicious words. Join me tomorrow for weekend Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Nature Bang. Hello. And welcome to Nature Bang.

I'm Becky Ripley. I'm Emily Knight. And in this series from BBC Radio 4, we look to the natural world to our answer some of life's big questions. Like, how can a brainless slime mold help us solve complex mapping problems? And what can an octopus teach us about the relationship between mind and body? It really stretches your understanding of consciousness. With the help of evolutionary biologists,

I'm actually always very comfortable comparing us to other species. Philosophers. You never really know what it could be like to be another creature. And spongeologists. Is that your job to be? title? Are you a spongeologist? Well, I am in certain spheres. It's science meets storytelling, with a philosophical twist. It really gets to the heart of free will and what it means to be you. So if you want to find out more about yourself via cockatoos that dance, frogs that freeze,

and single-cell amoebas that design border policies, subscribe to NatureBang. From BBC Radio 4, available on BBC Sounds.