Woman's Hour - 20/11/2025

Episode Date: November 20, 2025

Women's voices and women's lives - topical conversations to inform, challenge and inspire.

Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the program. I'll be speaking to a woman who experienced a life-changing accident at the age of 22 when a balcony collapsed beneath her in Morocco. She broke her spine and lost the use of her legs. Now Susanna Edwards is participating in cutting-edge medical trials aimed at helping people with complete paralysis move again. Also, she's been labelled the billion-dollar baby. At only 21, Francesca Hennessy is unbeaten in her first six professional fights and she's here for a round in Woman's Hour, HQ.

Actually, I'm not calling it out, Francesca, by the way. I'm fully going to remain on this side of the studio. Francesca is from a boxing family and grew up with it all around her, even though she wasn't expected to go into it. So can you relate? Did you grow up heavily influenced by what your family was doing or even just a member of the family? Were you encouraged?

or discouraged from following in their footsteps. Get in touch with me and let me know your family story in the usual way. It's 84844. Texts will be charged at your standard message rate. You can email the program by going to our website or you can WhatsApp me on 0700-100-444. Also, one in eight people age 16 to 24 in the UK now believe to be neat.

That's not in education, employment or training. We'll be unpacking those figures. Artist Caroline Walker's new exhibition is a series of paintings depicting the realities of motherhood. And they really are very beautiful. She'll be here to tell us all about it. But first, my guest, Francesca Hennessy, is the 21-year-old shaking-up women's boxing, nicknamed the billion-dollar baby. She's unbeaten in her first six professional fights.

And we'll be fighting on the bill when boxing returns to BBC primetime TV, free to air on Saturday, the 29th of November, she'll be facing former world champion Fabiana Batucci, marking the biggest test of her career. Francesca, welcome to Woman's Hour. Oh, thank you so much for having me. I'm happy to be here. How's the training going for the big fight? Oh, really well. It's the last week of training now, so I'm feeling great, feeling sharp, just, yeah, I'm ready to go. All right, tell me more. Tell me about your opponent. What do you know about them? Who is she? So, yeah, she's a former world champion at a smaller weight, but she's, her last fight was for a WBA

gold title at Super Bantam weight, so she's been in and around my weight for a few years, but she's very experienced, you know, she's very tough, she's very game, she's going to come, she's going to come to win, but I just believe that, you know, I know what I can do, and I know that

I'm going to win. See, it's really interesting. Yes, there you go, that attitude, that positive attitude. When I asked you, tell me about your opponent, part of your training, is having to get into the psychology of your opponent, right? Yeah, of course. Look, I respect her. You know, I know what she's capable of.

I've, you know, she's very experienced. But, yeah, all the preparation I put in, that's where the confidence comes from. You know, I'm very aware of my ability and what I can do. And when I put hard work with that and discipline, I just believe I can go very far. So how do you prepare to face her? What have you been doing?

Just working hard in the gym, you know, I've, it's been eight months since my last fight. So there's been a lot of time to improve, to work, to learn, to get better. And I truly believe this is the best version of me that we're going to see come next Saturday night. So I'm really, really ready and I'm actually really fired up. I can see that. It's good. And this beautiful smile on your face. We opened the program explaining that this is something that you grew up with.

So what was it about boxing and why did you go into it? Tell me about the family connection. So my dad, he's a professional, he's a boxing promoter, he's a manager now, but he was a Hall of Fame boxing promoter. So I'd always been in and around boxing, just hearing about it, you know, always walking in and out, he's on calls and seeing him bring up so many great champions. So I was always in and around that. And then my brother also is a professional boxer, so growing up, he was kind of like my hero. I'd always look up to him, you know, he's five years older than me, so he'd be in the hallway with me sparring and he'd be on his knees

and he'd be letting me give him a little dig, bless him. But yeah, so... Were you expected to go into it as well? Do you know what? I wasn't at the start at all, but I was very overweight when I was younger. And so I kind of got in it for fitness. In my head it was always I wanted to box, but in my parents' head it was just like, you know, healthy,

you know, to keep me healthy as a child. you know, as I said, a little bit overweight. But boxing gave me so much confidence within that because I was quite insecure because of my weight and things. So I owe a lot to boxing really, but yeah, no. My parents, they didn't think I was going to box at the very start, but now they're my biggest supporters and they've pushed me every step of the way.

That's really interesting because we know what boxing can do for young men and how it can give them something to focus on because lots has been made of that. But tell me a bit more about how it does. grew your confidence. Oh, you know, just like when you go into a boxing gym, there's so many different aspects of life. You know, everyone just gets on. It doesn't matter who you are, where you're from, you know, none of that matters. And you just, you make friends and you get, you know, you're boxing in front of people. It just grows that confidence, I suppose, you know, you learn how to

defend yourself. And I think, I think everyone should learn how to defend themselves. And it does bring out of confidence in you and especially when I started to like lose a bit of weight without even knowing I was losing weight because I enjoyed boxing. That was just the nice thing for me. See on a very small level I love a bit of boxing as well to keep as part of like keeping fit. For me it's also about the sort of the mental, it's a mental element to boxing isn't that? Like it's not it's physical but your mind has to be so alert to what's what's facing you and also how your body's moving and working. Oh, definitely.

Like, I've had bad days before where I'm like, oh, like, you know, mentally I'm a bit. But then I'll go to a boxing gym and all of that leaves me at the door. And I'll hit the bag, I'll do this and do that. And I think after I feel like a weight's been lifted off my shoulder. So I think, like, as well, from like a mental health aspect, I think it would be great for more people to get involved with it in that sense

because it does, it takes that stress off you. Like, I just feel like all my problems are left at the door. when I go into a box. Oh yeah, you can imagine anyone to be that punch bag, you know, and just let it all out in that moment. How, there's also something about being physically strong as well. I mean, how does, I think when I was reading about you and looking at your brilliant Instagram as well,

I just felt so empowered looking at you being so physically capable in your body and able to hold your own. Yeah, you know, like it took me a while to get here and be in this condition now and I'm happy to be where I am and I've still got a long way to go in my mind I'm not where I want to be just yet

I'm still got a long way to go but yeah just it's changed my whole outlook I suppose I'm a lot more confident now whereas when I was younger and things I just wasn't as confident in myself whereas now where I've been able to work hard and things it's just it's brought a confidence out

in me which is nice what was your first fight how old were you i was 13 i think 13 years old when i had my first fight and yeah that was that was crazy like it was one of the best things ever i lost my first fight actually so um that was a big thing but i made i gave a great account of myself but even that like to come back from loss and things like that it's just it's character building isn't it it it's great especially at that age so what happened how did you deal with the loss, your first fight, losing your first fight? Oh, it was against the great girl and, you know, it was, no one ever expects to lose their first, first amateur fight, did they? But, you know, I took a couple months out and then,

because at this point I was quite overweight, like I wasn't fit, I wasn't any of that, but I just loved to fight. I wouldn't run. I wouldn't do anything like that. I'd just go to the gym and spa and go home. So, yeah, I was quite overweight and things. And I think, like, I took a few months out and then I realised I had to get myself into better shape so that's what I did I was fighting at the wrong weight as well when I was for my first fight so I lost a bit of weight thought was fighting at the right weight after that and then I went on to win my next three and yeah the confidence kind of started building it's already a movie building in my head so what is the training regime the training regimes is six days on one day off so it's just it

It varies from about two sessions a day. It can be an hour session or half an hour session, no, or two hour session, sorry. Mainly the boxing's the longer session, and then you've got the conditioning, the running, the strength work. So it's quite a fair bit of different things, but I love it. For some 13-year-olds, that's quite a lot of pressure to start that young. How did you cope with the pressure?

Oh, do you know what? It was, for me, at that age, I'll be honest, I wasn't like, as I said, I wasn't as dedicated then as I am now, you know, I'd just like to spar. So there wasn't too much pressure on me and also it was like, it was kind of a hobby for me then. So I love to just fight, but obviously it is pressure when you're going in and actually having the fight, you know, and you want to win the fight. So, but it's, it's made me the person I am today going in and doing things like that from the age of 13. It's like massive character building. Well, you were a very successful amateur.

Yeah. How successful? Oh, you know, I did very well in the amateurs. I won two national titles. I won a few international box cups, one of them. But yeah, no, I made the decision to turn pro professional young just because my style was more suited to the pros

and things like that. So I only turn pro at 18 years old. Explain more. For someone who doesn't know anything about boxing, you know, what does that mean? your style was more suited to the pros? So the professional game is more rounds and it's, you know, you don't have

a head guard, whereas in the amateurs you have a head guard and in the amateurs it's only three round, yeah, just three rounds. So in the professional games you can in the women you can go up to 10. So for me, the more round suits my style better and I prefer without the head guard and the

smaller gloves and I like things like that so it just feels a bit more Amateurs is hard, but the professional just feels more right for me. Yeah, suits where you're at. Yeah. And you fight at bantam weight. Yeah. So how is that decided?

So I think, like, you kind of learn to know what weight you are. Obviously, everyone has a different body shape. Everyone has different body type. Some people's bones weigh heavier than others. So there's all different ways to tell what weight you can be. But the main thing is being able to feel fit. strong and healthy at whatever weight you are and also not be way too small at the weight or way too big at the weight. I think it's just about getting it right and seeing what works for

you. And you have a signature ringwalk. Tell me about that. So I like to have a little dance basically but I'm not a great dancer. I don't do dancing outside of boxing but one thing I do is when I'm in the gym everyone will see it when music comes on. I have a dance. That's just kind of my personality and things. So when the music comes on on my ringwalk, that's just me. I just like having a little dance and getting the crowd entertained,

you know. People paid for us to come support us and watch us, so why not give them entertainment from start to finish? So it's a nice way to get the crowd going. It's entertaining for the crowd, but what about your opponent? Is there something in the psychology?

I suppose they'll be watching, like, wow, this girl's confident, which I am. Like, the confidence, it's not, and it doesn't come from anywhere else other than the hard work I've put in and knowing that I'm meant to be there in that moment and knowing what I'm about to go and do. So it kind of, yeah,

it comes from just confidence really. So they can take that how they want but they probably will be thinking. It's just so fascinating. It's like you have to, it's like you've got to know that you're going to win it otherwise that's half the battle, right? Do you know what?

She'll probably be the same Fabiana as a, you know, I've got a lot of respect for her. I'm not going in there. thinking she's a walk in the park, but I just know that I am in the best physical condition I am right now and I truly believe I'm going to put on my best performance today and a lot of people are going to be shocked. I'm very exciting that we'll all be able to watch it as well.

But back to what you were saying about the difference between amateur and professional and that you have to wear sort of head gear in the amateur game and when you're a pro you don't have to. What about sort of risks and the safeguarding in the pro game compared to the amateur game? There's obviously, you know, a lot more, probably a lot more risks in the program than there is the amateurs. They're both, you know, you're both still getting punched.

They're both dangerous sports, but I just, it's great really in the professional game because they are very on it around your health. They make sure when you're getting into the ring that you're fully healthy and you're fully able to fight. But obviously you are getting in there and you're fighting for 10 rounds, so there does come with it's dangers. So we just, as boxes, have to make sure we fully prepare and are ready to be in the ring. And new TV coverage.

We're all going to be able to watch it. How important is this for women's boxing and how excited are you? Oh, wow, I'm so, it's amazing for women's boxing. I'm so, so excited, you know. First time boxing is back on primetime TV on the BBC for 20 years. And wow, it's just, it's a bit of a full circle moment for me as well because my dad was actually one of the last people to promote on the BBC for boxing. So it's a bit of a full circle.

moment and it just feels right. It feels like my time is now to show a different audience as well, a big platform, what I can do. So it's just amazing. How proud is your dad? My dad's my biggest supporter. He's so proud of me and, you know, I wouldn't be where I am without him. Him and my mum, I really, really wouldn't be where I am without them.

So they're my biggest supporters. I'm going to bring in our BBC boxing reporter, Cal Sajid, to join in the conversation. Morning, Carl. Hi, morning. How are you? I'm very well. What do you think? How important? How significant is this coverage on the BBC tonight at the weekends? Yeah, no, it's huge. You know, boxing back on the BBC, especially for women's boxing is huge. Ultimately, wider visibility leads to a new fan base, which leads to growth in the sport, which leads to participation.

We all know what any sport on free-to-air television can do. I think the timing is perfect for women's boxing in particular. It is on a real high. In July, we had Katie Taylor and Amanda Serrano. headline an all-female card at Madison Square Garden. We had a crowd of 20,000 fans in New York, nearly 6 million more watching on Netflix. And then you've got somebody like Francesca,

who is honestly one of the most relatable fighters out there at the moment. She is confident, but she's a showwoman, and her ring walks and her skillset, everything to match. So to have her fighting on the BBC, I think it's going to be a huge, huge thing for women's boxing. Yeah, over the last few years, I mean, the sports scene, a lot of fights being held in in Saudi Arabia, but they don't feature women.

How significant has that been for women's boxing? Yeah, I mean, generally there's been a reluctance to host female boxing in the kingdom. In some ways, it's been to the benefit of women's boxing in the UK because it's really put a spotlight on how great women's boxing is away from those Saudi cards. I think the tide's turning a little bit. We're seeing more fights now take place in America, in the UK again. So, yeah, it was disappointing that women's boxing wasn't been featured. They did have a couple of fights in Saudi cards.

all-female fight, sorry. But yeah, I think women's boxing is on a real, real high at the moment, regardless of whether it's happening in Saudi or not. In the news this week,

Anthony Joshua is going to be in a fight with the social media influencer Jake Paul next month. Give us some insight into that and how that's making the men's sport side of boxing go in a slightly different way to women's boxing.

Yeah, this whole sort of influencer boxing vibe it's just grown so much over the last few years but now that we have a former world champion two-time world champion fighting a guy who was on the Disney channel as a kid and you know who made his name by posting prank videos online fighting one of the best British heavyweights we've ever seen I think generally boxing purists feel

is a bit of a farce but then who can blame Anthony Joshua for taking tens of millions of pounds to fight somebody who he could probably be with one arm So it's a tricky one, isn't it? I think it's kind of indicative of where boxing is heading a little bit. But boxing's always been a theatre, hasn't it? Yeah. Actually, I'm going to get Francesca to tell me what she thinks.

She's thinking because she's nodding away. What do you think about that? Do you know what? I think there are two people that are doing very well for themselves. So I think, you know, and it's bringing new eyes to boxing. There's obviously good bits and bad bits about it. But look, they're both doing well for themselves. that it's bringing new eyes to boxing and, you know, fair play to both of them.

And as you just nearly said, fair pay to them as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's going to make a lot of money. You're being touted as the billion dollar baby. Is there as much money to be made in women's boxing as men's boxing? I believe there will be, yes. There will be. I believe there will be, definitely.

It's growing significantly, but I believe there will be, definitely. And it's just, it's growing like rapid fire. And I believe I'll be a big part to play. No doubt about that. What about you, Kel, the future for women's sport? What needs to be done to keep the momentum going? I think the most important thing is competitive fights, which women's boxing does do really well. I think in some way, women's boxing takes boxing back to its roots. So you're having 50-50 fights. There's respect between the two fighters, but still enough spite and enough trash talk, which tends to be more authentic than some of the men's fights, I think. But it is, you know, it is positive. There's a positive outlook on it. Clarissa Shields just signed a six million pound multi-fight deal.

And that sort of says it all, that the money is there for those at the top. I think it's just a case of let time go on, let the depth of women's boxing increase. And like I say, seeing the likes of Francesca Hennessy fighting on the BBC, inspiring young girls to take up the sport can only be a good thing. I mean, I completely agree with you, Carl. You already have quite a big social media following. There's a brilliant bit that it's been put up of you as a kid. running on the track

you went to do one lap and you ended up doing eight and then it cuts to you powering like some kind of superhuman along the track like do you think you just there's something about your mentality that means you can train

and dedicate yourself in a way that maybe some of us humans can't do you know what definitely I think from a young age I've always had that oh do one lap I'll do two

two I'll do three and I'll keep going until you know I'll keep pushing myself I feel I've always had that mindset even when I was overweight I wasn't very fit I've always had that mentality

so I think it's just within me to be honest and that show womenship as well Who were your heroes growing up? Who did you look up to? So I looked up to As I said earlier My brother was one of my biggest

inspirations you know He just grew up around him I just always wanted to be like my brother when I was younger Savannah Marshall She was one of the first female boxes I ever like met, got to see train. My dad's manager, Savannah and Peter Fury, our good friend, he trained Savannah. So I got lucky enough to go up and see her training things at the age of

12. And that kind of showed me that women's boxing was growing and wow, I can really do this, you know, seeing Savannah do it. So she was a big inspiration to me as well. And as Cal said, you're going to be a huge inspiration to a whole new generation. And I'm not just young women, young men as well. Cannot wait. Best of luck, Francesca. Thank you so much, Francesca Hennessy, and to you as well, Cal, BBC Sports, Cal Sajid. And at the big fight, you can see Francesca in action on BBC 2 on Saturday, the 29th of November.

Good luck. Thank you. And we started a programme by asking you, if, like Francesca, you've sort of gone into the family business or been inspired by something that someone in the world around you does. Lucy in Newcastle says, I was inspired by my uncle who worked in Australian football data analysis. I always was fascinated by him, so I ended up gaining a sports journalism degree in Sunderland. And another message here saying from Nicola saying, in relation to the family firm, my grandparents ran restaurants and my mum absolutely did not want anything to do with hospitality. And now I am happiest on the floor of a commercial kitchen fixing the combi ovens.

I like to think that early experience helped me in being. being allied to the hospitality trade from Nicola and her mum, Anne. 84844 is the text message, keep them coming in. Now, on Monday's program, Nula spoke to Laura Brown and Christina O'Neill, two of fashion's most powerful women who were both very publicly fired. They explained how losing your job can be turned into an opportunity

and more specifically, what to do if the unexpected happens. If you're fired right then in this room, say this is HR, you don't have to sign anything right in that room. The nature people want you to sign up. So you're saying take the paperwork and go, you know what? I need a minute. And then go get some counsel, a lawyer, a friend who knows what's up, whatever. And then think about what you want to ask for.

Do you want to ask for more money? Do you want equipment? Do you want retraining? Ask for everything because what are they going to do? Fire you? I think if one is fired, there is shame, an embarrassment that comes with it. Yeah, and it is a very vulnerable moment. And that's another reason why not to sign anything.

And at the same time, to the point about shame, so much of it is in your head. Generally, people want to sort of like grab your hand, but you have to put it up. You have to sort of say, I'm here and I need help. Keep your eye on the horizon. Understand where your industry is headed. You know, there's little things you can do. Take tiny little insurance policies out. Download your contacts. Keep your LinkedIn profile up to date. Make sure you are sort of, you know, taking those meetings. Don't sort of issue like the opportunity to have a coffee with a colleague who's doing something interesting in another organization. Stay out there, stay relevant, stay up to date. To hear more, check out Monday's Woman's Hour on BBC Sounds. You can text the program 84844. You can also follow us on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. Now, figures just released half an hour ago

by the Office for National Statistics show that the number of needs, that's young people, not in education, employment or training remains at a concerning level. In next week's budget, Chancellor Rachel Reeves is expected to give more details on how the government is planning to tackle these rising numbers. Historically, more women than men have been neat.

But in recent years, that trend has reversed with young men more likely than young women to be neat. But with one in eight people, age 16 to 24 in the UK, now believe to be neat, what does it mean to be one on what is being done to bring the numbers down? To unpick this, I'm joined by BBC's employment correspondent Zoe Conway, morning Zoe. Let's get into these figures. So there's a, what's actually happening? There's a slight drop by 2,000 to 946,000. But what do we know about what lies behind this, the increase?

In terms of the numbers, I think what we should say really is that essentially it's remained unchanged. We're talking about 946,000, whereas it was reported at 948,000 a few months ago. But statistically, it's essentially the same. same number, and that's because of the sample size. So it's broadly unchanged, close to a million, which is clearly deeply concerning. And the government, Pat McFadden, the work and pension secretary has called this a crisis of opportunity. Now, what is the main driver behind this? Long-term sickness. We know that there's been a 76% increase in economic inactivity amongst this age group of six.

16 to 24-year-olds with mental health conditions over the last five or six years. We know some other deeply concerning statistics behind this, that the benefit to universal credit that young people are entitled to, that the health-related element of this, that 80% of people claiming this within this age group are reporting mental health issues or they have a neurodevelopmental condition like ADHD, So this is what's lying behind it. What I think is interesting as well is what is going on in terms of gender.

We do have to be a bit careful about these statistics because, as I say, quite a small sample size. But what they're reporting today, the Office for National Statistics, is that the number of economically inactive women, young women, or young women, not in educational or training or employment, that's dropped. by about 16,000, whereas the number of men in that category has actually gone up. So kind of caveat to one side, that is quite interesting because what we have historically known is that more women have tended to be in this category than men. So it's interesting that it appears to be a bit of a reversal going on. Now, what has been the reason behind this? well, you know, why so many young women in this category?

It's tended to be to do with long-term sickness or to do with caring responsibilities. So it's interesting to see what's going on here. And let's see what the analysis comes up with. I don't have a kind of quick-fire answer for you about why this shift has happened. It'd be interesting to look at when people start analysing this why there's been this change.

Let's look at some other demographics as well. and the divide in the country. The north-east and the east of England is where this is more of an issue for young people. So what's happening there? Well, exactly. The north of England, the Midlands, those are the local authorities

with some of the highest rates of this. And we know there's a strong link between poverty, between deprivation, and the number of economically inactive people. I was in a community only last week doing some filming for the BBC in quite a deprived community and it was quite striking

how many young people in the middle of the day were on the street and you can see that in a lot of deprived communities as it happens I was actually in the south of England filming but it was quite striking

in the middle of the day and I'm sure a lot of people listening to this will have seen that with their own eyes and that there's clearly a deeply concerning problem here in November of last year the government announced a youth guarantee

a pledge to provide anyone aged 18 to 21 in England with access to an apprenticeship, training or education opportunities to find a job. Have those proposals addressed the situation at all? I think it's really interesting what the government is doing about this. I think it's politically interesting. Pat McFadden, the Work in Pension Secretary,

has asked Alan Milburn, who used to be Health Secretary in the sort of Tony Blair years, to look at this whole issue of youth in activity. Now, critics would say, what on earth is the government doing, talking about this being a crisis, and then asking for a review, which is not going to conclude until next summer.

But I think it's interesting politically that he's asked Alan Milburn to do this, because the two of them are kind of from the same sort of bit of the party, the kind of the modernising right, if you like, of the party. and I think we can expect arguably some quite tough proposals to come forward from Alan Milburn. What we're hearing increasingly is talk of conditionality, the idea, and this is what this youth guarantee that Rachel Reeves, the Chancellor, will be talking about in her budget next week.

This idea that if you don't take up an opportunity for training, employment, education, that there will be some sort of penalty sanctions that you have to take these up if you've been out of work or education for more than 18 months. And I think that Alan Milburn, when he concludes this summer, I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't also within that policy proposals where they are essentially coming up with ways to make it clear to young people

if they don't take up opportunities, they will have to pay a penalty for that, some sort of sanction. Now, I think what Pat McFadden is trying to get to is to say, I don't want young people to just automatically go on to benefits. He's being very careful

not to suggest that there's an over-diagnosis of mental health conditions for young people. I think people have tried to sort of get him to say that, and he's been very careful. not to. But I think what's interesting is that what he's saying is that rather than putting people onto benefits, there needs to be some sort of offer of support, whether it's through the health service, with a mental health condition, but you don't automatically get to go on to benefits that work is the best cure. Thank you for coming in to shed light on that. Thank you. That's

BBC's Employment, Correspondent Zoe Conway. Thank you, Zoe. 844. is the number to text. Now, Scottish painter Caroline Walker explores the realities of motherhood in her exhibition mothering at the Palant House Gallery in Chichester. Caroline has always painted women, ranging from bakers and beauticians

to tailors and housekeepers, but she started painting maternal themes, which highlights the unseen labour of modern parenting after becoming a mother herself in 2019. Welcome to Women's Hour, Caroline. Hi, it's great to be here. It's wonderful to have you here. We are talking art on the radio,

so I've got a beautiful copy of your book in my hands, which is absolutely divine to look at. But how would you describe your work? Well, my work's been looking at women's lives, really, and trying to portray their experiences for really 20 years now. but in the last 10 years that's really focused on looking at women's work in particular

and some of the themes in that around basically what works visible and how it's valued Describe your style realist quite naturalistic in terms of what it's portraying so there's a real sense of

both the women that are being painted but very much the environment that they're in so there is much about this context as they are about the women themselves and what they're doing incredible work some of it looks like some of them look like photographs well they start as the the process starts with photography for me and that's and then I work with the photographs that have to make drawings and studies before I make the paintings ah because yes some of these I mean let's get straight in I mean you are in a maternity ward yes so all these from photographs Yeah, so I, this is the, these paintings of the maternity ward

were the result of a residency that I did in 2021 at UCLAH in London in their maternity wing, which is actually also the maternity hospital where my daughter was born in 2019. So you were there taking photos or just observing? Tell me more about the process. Both really, so I was shadowing midwives as they were working and photographing them

and I got some access to some incredible spaces like an operating theatre doing a C-section a birthing room I just wonder how that residency comes about did you approach them to say I'm an artist and this is what I want to do

and then someone says yep come along and in a nutshell yes but it took a lot longer than that there's a curator at the hospital and I just contacted him and at that point was just interested in making work about women

working in the hospital I didn't know at that stage that I wanted to focus on the maternity wing that came later and they are all real characters these are real women and are real experience and obviously they all had to give you permission

have some of these women seen I mean I'm thinking about the C-section in particular that painting of a woman having a C-section Yes so part of the I was going around the hospital with my pile of consent forms. Have she seen it? I sent her an image of it, yes.

And some of the other women, so the woman that's in the birthing pool in one of the paintings, she came to see the painting when it was exhibited. What did she think? What was her reaction? I think she really liked it. And I think it's sort of,

obviously that's such an intense moment for women, this process. of birth and becoming a mother and I think maybe it was quite meaningful for her to see that represented this very intense moment in her life represented in these paintings. Very beautiful thing to see I think. What a wonderful way of honouring that experience for these women to have it. How long does one of these paintings take because they're incredibly detailed? The paintings themselves execute quite quickly really. So the the operating theatre painting probably about two weeks

but there's an awful lot of preparation that goes into that lots of drawings and studies and scale studies and particularly with a work like that that's very complex that has a lot of figures in it it would take me quite a while to work out how to fit it together I suppose what strikes me about the hospital paintings I particularly enjoyed it's the first thing that struck me really

especially the one in the woman having a C-section is the amount of women of colour who are depicted because, of course, they are the ones doing the work. Yes, yeah. I mean, my work is really very much about reflecting what's in the world around me. So I'm not making any decisions about who I'm painting as such. I'm just reflecting who is there doing this work, doing these jobs.

I think it's just an interesting reaction to see. It's like, oh, wow, women of colour have been. You know, even just something as simple as that. You once thought that painting motherhood might be seen as a cliché or less serious. Yes. What changed in 2019? Yes, I think I was very reticent about the idea that that might become part of my work, even though I was making all these paintings about women.

Because I think there's still, up until really relatively recently, still quite a lot of stigma around the validity of women artists once they become mothers, let alone making that the subject of their work. But I think just it was such a huge identity shift becoming a new mother. And it was a bit of a shock to the system, really, being at home with this newborn.

And I think that big shift personally, It just felt like I could not make it part of my work that the way to reflect on that experience on my own life for me would naturally be through making it part of my artwork. And now both your children, congratulations, are part of the work as well because you depict your eldest daughter, Daphne. And there's a beautiful painting of your daughter with your mum doing a sticker book when she was two and a half.

So my mum has previously been the subject of quite a big series of work called Janet, which is her name. Shout out Janet. And that previous series was all about her really caring for her home, which is that her and my dad have been in for 40 plus years, maybe 45 years now. And it's been nice to bring her back into the work again, but it's been nice. in this new role of unpaid labour of looking after her grandchildren. And I suppose thinking about that through the work, there's these elements of motherhood,

but also about the kind of network of women that really support those early years of childhood. So you've got grandparents and nursery workers, health visitors, midwives, all of them involved, and you've painted all of this. Yes, yeah. So that's what this exhibition brings together these different series of works to think about them under this idea of mothering as an act rather than an identity. So what have you learnt about how women support one another in these early years of motherhood?

I think I've learnt that we don't exist in isolation. We do really rely on all these different support networks, whether that is family or whether that's through these paid professional services like nurseries or childminders. And then, of course, there is this sort of health and social care kind of element of that through the health visitors who are kind of assisting in that more institutional kind of way. Do you hope that your work is going to shift how society values women's labour? I hope that by making that the subject of my paintings that it draws attention to it

and maybe makes some of these jobs and aspects of our daily lives which might be overlooked or a bit invisible in some way it makes them more visible, makes them something that we should pay attention to and therefore attribute more value to. also you've brought great beauty to this experience as well just by depicting them in this way well there's so much to visually enjoy about all of this as a subject

you know from the hospital with it's all of the you know surgical gowns you know curtains there's lots of things to enjoy in every environment and the nursery is a great example of that as well it's so packed with colour and texture and an artwork itself well I'm looking at a picture It's actually I know of this because you tell me it's your sister-in-law. Yes, Lisa. Lisa, you painted her experience of motherhood from being eight months pregnant.

Yes, until Leila, her daughter, was three months old. And it's just a beautiful painting of her, just washing the dishes. Yeah. With a dishcloth slung over her shoulder. It's the most domestic scene that we can all relate to. It's beautiful. Yeah, I was trying to capture something in that series really about the, the sort of lived experience at home

that happens in those very early days of motherhood where really it's so much cited in the domestic. So in the paintings, we never leave the house. The furthest we get is into the garden to view her inside the house. So it's really a portrait of a time, I suppose, a very domestic time and also about this very 24, our day nature of life with a newborn. So where did you find the time

and how did you find the time to bring up two children and paint this? I have a very supportive husband who does far more than his fair share of stuff looking after the children. We really share that a lot and that has made probably the biggest difference but also I've had to get really very good at how I use my time.

The idea of getting an eight-hour stretch in the studio for a day is very much a thing of the past. It's quite fragmentary. I've had to get very used to putting down the paintbrush and picking up a child. And there's that constant switch between family life and studio life, which is quite, it's a lot easier for me now because I actually have a studio at home.

So really the two things are just constantly intermixing. It's been a pleasure having you in to talk to me, Caroline. Thank you. We've had a message in for someone saying, hooray, artists now representing women as women and not just through the male gaze. Thank you, says somebody. Thank you for your messages, keeping coinging in.

Caroline Walker, and you can see the exhibition. It's called Mothering. It's on at the Pallent House Gallery in Chichester from the 22nd of November. and it's running right through to the 26th of April next year and they are really beautiful. So thank you for coming in, Caroline. Thank you.

Now, our next guest is Suzanne Edwards. She's been in the news recently for her participation in cutting-edge medical trials aimed at helping people with complete paralysis move again. Doctors, neuroscientists and neurosurgeons at a facility in Switzerland have pioneered a digital bridge that translates brain signals into spinal stimulation, giving people with paralysis new ways to regain movement.

Suzanne herself experienced a life-changing accident at the age of 22 when a balcony collapsed beneath her in Morocco. In the resulting fall, she broke her spine and lost the use of her legs. Suzanne, welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you for taking the time to speak to us. I'm really interested in getting an insight into what it's like to be part of a cutting-edge research trial like this. Can you first help me understand the procedure itself?

I've read it being described as implanting electrodes onto the surface of the brain, which then communicate wirelessly to an implant in the spine. So tell me more. What does that mean in practice? Yeah. So I have a spinal cord injury. So I damaged my spinal cord sort of in my mid thoracic. So sort of around like my belly button kind of area, but a bit higher than that.

So that is a very damaged part of my spinal cord, which will not get better. So the messages are not getting from my brain to my legs when I want to, you know, move my legs. So they have implanted something on my spinal cord that sits just below my injury. And this can activate the nerves below my injury still to move my, to move my legs and my lower limb muscle. So that's sort of one component, one of the implants. And that helps to move the legs themselves. And then there is something that is implanted. It sits on top of my brain, on top of the most.

to cortex and that picks up my intentions to try and move my legs. So they then effectively connect the two things. So when I think I want to do a left step, this device implants in my brain can read that intention. That intention is taken to a computer and then that is translated into the movement that we know is required by stimulating the right nerves below my injury with that second implant. So that message is then sent to the implant in my spine to make the leg muscles move. And how's it going? Great. I mean, yeah, I had the surgery back in March and I spent a good few months out

in Switzerland doing the rehab phase. So I was in the lab with them for a few hours each day sort of practicing. Obviously, I have to build up my leg muscles, having not used them for 14 years. So yeah, it's great. I'm now able to walk once I'm connected to everything, just to make it clear, you know, I'm not cured. I still am very much paralyzed if I'm not plugged into everything, but I can walk using a walking frame unassisted for sort of short distances. It's quite tiring. You know, I'm sort of seeing it as it being more like learning a new sport than something that is just, you know, part of my everyday life.

I don't get up and walk to go make a cup of tea. You know, I still use my wheelchair full time, but I can include walking as part of my sort of exercise routine and something to practice and get better at. What was that like when that first happened after 14? years um it was it's it's it's quite surreal it's um you know it's part of a process and i i very much sort of saw myself as you know that they're sort of athlete their guinea pig you know so i was very focused on just doing what i was told in the sessions and you know i like to i like sort of training i like people being like right we're going to do this and then this so you know i i just

kind of went with it and was like oh yeah yeah we're walking right what are we doing next what do you know, and it is a long process, you know, you start in a body weight support harness that's taking, you know, half of your body weight. So as I said, like my, my legs are very weak having not used them. So we had to sort of build up to that moment of, of, of unclipping the body weight support harness. And that was a, that was a pretty huge moment. And I think we were all kind of in shock. I sat back down. I was like, oh my God, we actually just did it. That's what we've been trying to do and we did it. So, yeah, it was a pretty cool moment. Incredible. The criteria for these kinds of clinical trials, experimental clinical trials,

they must be very specific. So what were they looking for? And how did you become a successful candidate to be included? I think back now and I'm like, wow, I was very lucky. Something was looking down on me when I met all the criteria and I was picked for this. So they look for a specific injury level or sort of a range of injury levels. Mine is for a lower limb study. So obviously they want someone that's got full arm function.

and that sort of thing. And then they obviously need you to have been injured for a certain amount of time. So mine's, you know, more of a longer term injury they were looking for and so on with complete paralysis. So I don't have any motor or sensory function left over. And then I had to, so I sort of met some of that criteria. They also want someone that has kept in fairly good shape since their injury. So, you know, I've done a lot of rehab and physio since my accident.

So I still, you know, I still do standing in a standing frame. So I sort of still tried to keep in as good a shape as possible and look after myself. And then I had to go out there and have MRI scans, CT scans to make sure that, you know, the devices would fit in my spinal cord and things like that. You've always been very sporty. That was a big part of your life. You're a surfer and you were only 22 when you had the accident that changed your life. Had your adult life even started at that point?

I think I was just getting started. It's a shame. I do sometimes wonder what would what part of my life have taken. You know, I, as you said, I was very sporty. I loved sport. I just finished my degree in economics at Exeter and I was taking a bit of time to, you know, have a bit of fun, do a bit of traveling, just start to enjoy life. And then this kind of hit me out of nowhere and really derailed everything I thought. And then, you know, it was it was really tough. I was pretty young. All my friends were stuff. starting to get jobs, get boyfriends, settle down, get engaged, have babies. And I was suddenly like, wow, this is not what I'm doing. And it was hard, really hard. Yeah, so what did your options feel like after your accident? And how did you cope with it? My options, my world felt very small. And I honestly, I really struggled.

The first sort of four or five years, I did a lot of rehab. I was really determined that I would get better. I was probably quite naive that, you know, spinal cord injuries are pretty rough. And so I tried a lot of rehab. That wasn't really working. And as I said, you know, all my friends were moving on with their lives. And I had been told in hospital that, you know, I wouldn't get a job. You know, I would go on benefits and that's just my life now.

So, and I, you know, I had a degree and I had always assumed I would get a career. And so it was just all quite strange of what do I do with my life now? And so, you know, I think my mental health struggle quite a lot. lot. And then I had a couple of, you know, big things that happened in my life for the, for the better that sort of turned it all around. Like what happened? So one was, I started playing wheelchair tennis. So I, I was always very determined that I wouldn't enjoy disability sport, that it just, you know, I had done lots of sport before and

I was like, it won't be the same. I won't enjoy it. I'm very stubborn person. But I tried it and I did, I absolutely loved it. And my coach, he was amazing. And he said, oh, I think you could be quite good at this. Why don't you come back and play some more? So I kept playing and then I started training quite a lot and then I competed in a few tournaments and I was like, oh, this is great. And I met so many people who had disabilities and they were sports people and they had families. They were, you know, they were married.

They had jobs. And I was like, oh, they've got great lives. And then the second thing was that I met this guy who just started this accessible travel startup. And as I said, I had been told I wouldn't ever have a job. And he said, oh, why don't you start helping out in your spare time? okay. And then that kind of grew into a job and then that grew more and more. And then a couple of years later, the company was acquired by Airbnb. And so I've been working at Airbnb for the last

eight years and my career has really, really grown. So how did it feel when you first got that job? And didn't you meet a woman who had a more severe disability to you who actually said to you, why don't you have a job? Yes. So I was actually out in China doing some rehab. I went on this, rehab program for a year and met this lovely lady Ali and she has a higher spinal injury than mine and she was like, oh, what do you do for work? And said, oh, I don't have a job. You know, we don't work. We have spinal injuries. And she just said, what are you talking about? You know, your back is broken, not your brain. You should have a job. You should be working. And I honestly had never really thought about it. And I was like, oh, okay. And I saw, you know, she's got very

limited hand function. And she was typing on a computer every day. She was working really long, long hours and so I was like right I need to work then so you know that really really helped me to realize oh yeah yeah it's interesting in that moments in life when you meet somebody who just kind of switches your perception completely but it's someone who fully understood and couldn't understand like she was in a worse situation than you but yeah yeah it's yeah and then you got your job in the travel industry so what needs to change in the travel industry um so I was always really really into travel before my accident. And I think having my injury, I realized that, you know, the world is not that

accessible. It's not set up for wheelchair users and people with other disabilities. And I had a bad experience with my friends where we just wanted to go on a weekend away, you know, it was after my accident. And we thought someone was accessible. It was listed as being accessible. And we showed up and it wasn't. The doorways were too narrow.

Couldn't get to the bathroom. It was, you know, it was a nightmare. And so I think that's why I got really excited about working in travel and inaccessible travel because, you know, we all deserve to travel. Like, why should people with disabilities not be able to travel? And, you know, there's issues with wheelchairs getting damaged on aeroplanes, places not being very accessible, and that's not okay. So I'm, you know, incredibly passionate about it because so much could be better.

And I just think everyone, yeah, deserves the chance to travel. And you're back surfing as well. How did that feel? because you were in Morocco when you had your accident because you were surfing. So what was it like going back surfing? Yeah, it was tough. I, again, being very stubborn, I was pretty sure I would never want to surf or would never want to go near the beach again, and beaches are not very accessible.

And then a few years, again, a few years after my accident, I suddenly was like, actually, I quite fancy this. So I was with my family in Formwell, and we just decided let's just give it a go. so I just got a board and a lifeguard helped me get in the water. And I caught a wave and I was like, wow, this is cool. So I ride the wave lying down. Now, obviously, I don't stand up on a wave. And then I got introduced to the English surf team and they invited me to join the team.

I went to world championships. I won a medal. And then I sort of kept doing it. And yeah, it's been quite a fun journey. You've described yourself as stubborn a couple of times now. I would say, determined is a good word to use, possibly. Maybe that's a nice way. Yeah.

And there's nothing wrong with that. particularly as women, and it says one stubborn woman to another. It's probably that mindset, really, that makes you good for this trial. But how does it feel to be part of the process that could potentially be so groundbreaking, whilst also being realistic about how early on it is in the science? Yeah, it's honestly, it's such a privilege to be part of this. I think, you know, there's such an amazing team of people of, you know, engineers, scientists, researchers, physios, and they are all so.

passionate. Having spent so much time with them, they're just a phenomenal team. And it's so great to be part of working with them. And I feel so lucky to, you know, be able to sort of input to them. And, you know, they want my input. They need me because, you know, there's very few of us implanted with this kind of technology. And so I honestly feel so honored to that I can be a part of this, of this journey with them. So, yeah, I loved my time out there. I can't wait to go back and spend more time with them. Well, it's been fascinating hearing your story this morning. Thank you, Suzanne. Thank you, Suzanne Edwards. That's nearly it for me. I'm going to end with a couple of your messages. I used to listen, Diana says, on the Alevaite. I used to listen to stories of my great

aunt who trained as a nurse at Guys in the 1920s. She was also later on my grandfather's dispense. He was a GP in Hastings, and she made all the pills. I loved hearing all the medical dramas. I went on to train myself. That's it from me. Do join me tomorrow when I'll be remembering the spoken word poet Andrea Gibson. That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time. Hi, it's India here. I'm very excited to bring you the return of child.

So we've been on the journey of an embryo all the way to a baby's first birthday. And now we are going to enter the explosive life of the toddler because this is the perfect place to unpick the very complicated world of emotions, the emotions that affect us all. So come with us as over eight episodes we fall through the abundant and dizzying world of happiness, descend into the depths of fear and the gendered and dangerous world of anger,

and then crawl, wobble and bounce our way through awe, love, anxiety and surprise. From BBC Radio 4, this is Child with me, India Rackerson. Listen first on BBC Sounds.