Woman's Hour - 21/08/2025

Episode Date: August 21, 2025

Women's voices and women's lives - topical conversations to inform, challenge and inspire.

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Hello, I'm Dashiani Navanayagum and welcome to Women's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Now, if you're a fan of burlesque, powerhouse vocals and strong women taking centre stage, think Christina Aguilera, think share. Well, you're in for a treat because my guest this morning is 22-year-old Jess Folly, who's starring in Burlesque the musical, now lighting up the West End. She'll be here shortly to talk about what it's like leading such a bold, big-boiced show.

I should say that Jess has written some of the music for the show herself, and she's promised to sing one of the numbers live for us, so you won't want to miss that. But if your idea of a strong woman takes us back a couple of thousand years and leans towards someone more ancient, more warrior-like, well, we've got something for you too. There's a new novel about Budica's daughter. It's a powerful reimagining of the iconic warrior queen and the life story of her little-known eldest daughter. We'll be finding out a bit more about her, but I can tell you there's blood, there's lust, and yes, also some excrement too. We'll also be discussing new research that's published today, which could

in the future lead the way in helping to reduce Alzheimer's in women. We'll be speaking to the lead researcher shortly. And in a moment, we're going to be talking about dating apps, just how safe they are and the ways you can verify what you're told about the other person. But it did get us talking in the Women's Hour office about how easy it is to meet a romantic partner through any other way these days. If not an app, well, how did you meet your significant other? Did you make a concerted effort to try and find someone offline? And if you did, well, Any tips for the rest of us asking for a friend here? As always, you can text the program.

The number is 844-text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour, or you can send a WhatsApp message or voice note using the number 0-3-700-100-444. Just watch those data charges. Now, I want to talk about an issue affecting women in the US who signed up to a dating statement. safety app. They've now become the target of intimidation and harassment online, and that's

according to a new BBC investigation. T-dating advice, or T as it's known, was set up in the US with a view to allowing women-only users to do background checks and share their experiences of men they've been dating. But a data breach has seen images, posts and comments for more than 70,000 women who signed up leaked. And those details, well, they've now been shared by men on alternative websites, with even a map of some women's addresses created and posted online. Well, the BBC World Service reporter Jackie Wakefield has been following this story and joins me now in the studio. Jackie, hello to Women's Hour. Hi. Look, just tell us a bit more about the T app. Why were women using it? And what exactly is it?

So the T-Up is an anonymous review app where women could post reviews about men that they've dated or had experiences with. And it's kind of about, I guess women feel sometimes powerless with online dating. Who are these men that they're meeting? And sometimes women's safety is at risk. So the idea of this app was to kind of combat that. So the app could flag if potential partners were married or registered sex offenders. The app could run reverse image searches to check against people using fake. identities or catfishing. It was also possible to mark men as red or green flags. But there was also

a lot of gossip on the app, which users were spilling the tea, which is slang for gossip, which is how the app got its name. Yeah. So presumably women were going on this app first and foremost because they wanted to check out or verify men that they were either dating or thinking of dating. Yeah, precisely. So you could see what other women had said about men in. your local area, but also there was a lot of gossip there and it was entertaining for some women as well. Well, you know, was any of this information being verified? So the information was not verified. So users couldn't always trust what was being posted. And there was like a lot of unproven gossip on the site. Some of it helpful. Some of it was just rude or unkind to the men being

posted as well. Do we know anything about the creators of the app and what their purpose was? Yeah, so the creator was Sean Cook, who is a tech entrepreneur in the US. He said that he wanted to create the app after seeing his mum's experiences on dating apps with men. So she'd been catfished and had some negative experiences. They also say that they donate 10% of their profits to domestic violence shelters. But experts have pointed out the app is for profit. And although it markets itself as a safety app, a lot of the marketing materials also focuses on spilling tea. and the gossipy entertainment side of the app as well. Okay, so as this app was gaining popularity, I mean, we've just heard that at least 70,000 women were using it. It was becoming more and more controversial. Just tell us what's happened in the last few weeks. Sure.

So it had slowly been creating a gaining popularity this year, but it really went viral in July, and a lot of people took issue with it. I mean, whisper networks have always, been used to protect women. Women have always talked to each other to protect each other against men who could cause them harm. But this app took that to a new scale. I mean, there was more than a million users on the app. And as we mentioned earlier, the information there is unverified. So you can always trust the information on the app. But a lot of men were really concerned because

some of their information was being posted. They had rumours being spread about them, which may not have been true. And men can't actually gain access to the app. So a lot of men may not even know if they had been posted at all and can't see what kind of stuff's being posted about them. And then last month, the app was hacked. What sort of details about women were leaked? Sure. So there was a massive leak of a whole bunch of details that came out on the app. So there were images. So women had to take an image when they signed up to the app of them. to prove that they were a woman. They were assured that this image would be deleted once they were verified.

This was not the case. So selfies were leaked. Some of their IDs, driver's license, work IDs were leaked. Private messages between women were leaked. And there was metadata on the images which gave away some women's locations, which was then been shared on a map. And you've been talking exclusively to some of these women. And I know they feel really what.

worried about their safety. And that's why they don't want to speak on air. But what have they been telling you? So a lot of the women we spoke to have faced immense, immense online harassment. So this information, this leak was posted to in-cell forums, really misogynistic online spaces. And these men were already mad at these women for being on the T app at all. So there was a lot of vitriol there. Women have faced abuse, racism, objectifying. insults. We spoke to one woman who was really fearful because she had actually moved home because she'd been stalked by an ex previously. Now her location, which is on the map, has been shared to the world. So she's really worried about how that's going to impact her life

in the future. And I understand that as a result, a lot of so-called male T apps have also sprung up. Just tell us about those and what exactly is their purpose. What are those sites being used for? So in response, we've seen a lot of apps being created that, yeah, exactly, have been posed as the male T-app alternative. They use the same sort of marketing tactics of the T-app. They claim it's for male dating safety. From what I've seen and what we've seen, the apps really are just places to objectify and harass women further. We've seen AI-generated images of women in the leaks being created. We've seen nudes being posted without women's consent, and these apps have turned into quite nasty places.

And the T-Up itself, they're facing various potential lawsuits. Just explain what's happening there. So once the data leak happened, 10 women brought a class action case against the T-app for the data leak. They're consolidating the case at the moment, but their hope is to improve the privacy of the app and seek compensation. I also spoke to a lawyer who told me that many men had reached out to their law firm seeking advice around defamation cases. The lawyer I spoke to said that they were going to take one case forward potentially, but that defamation case would be against the women who posted, not the T app. And what's happened to the T app itself? How have they responded to all of this? Is it still going? Yeah, it's still up and running. I'm seeing posts on social media every day where women are still joining the app.

But the T-App said that they were working to identify and notify users whose personal information was involved and notify them under the law. And they also said that affected users would be offered identity theft and credit monitoring services. They also said that they'd bolstered resources to enhance security for current membership and that they're proud of what they built and their mission is more vital than ever. Okay. And just going back to these male T-Apps, what's going on there? Will they face legal action? It's hard to say with the male T-ups because they're obviously, a lot smaller. There's a smaller group of men using them. What we've seen is some have been taken down, but in their place others have popped up. And I think that's likely to keep

happening. As I said earlier, that in cell groups, misogynistic groups are really mad. So they're going to keep creating these sorts of resources and places to harass the women involved. Well, that's a good point for me to bring in Dr. Jenny Van Hoaf. She's a sociologist from Manchester Metropolitan University who specialises in relationships and intimacy. Jenny, well, Welcome to Women's Hour. Thanks for coming on the program. Morning Dashiani. These sites and apps which call out bad behaviour, are they becoming more prevalent? I think they've always existed. As Jackie said, we've always had whisper networks between women.

And there have been Facebook groups, such as are we dating the same guy and Twitter accounts like she rapes dogs. So they have existed for a while. And I think they're an attempt to bring accountability into online dating. because online platforms remove that informal accountability that exists when people meet through friends or work and this feels like a way to try and bring order back into a very chaotic dating culture at the moment. But as we just heard from Jackie there, I mean, certainly with this app,

there seems to be no way of verifying what women were saying about men and how you trust that. I mean, what risks do these social media sites and apps pose for both the users, people seeking information and those who are having stuff said about them? These online call out platforms are risky on both sides. For women, these data breaches like the T-Hack expose highly sensitive personal information. And for men, anonymous reviews can damage reputations without any due process. They reflect a real hunger for accountability, but I think building it on these very insecure and unregulated platforms can backfire. And I would also note that

they can make it harder to build trust in dating. So men, I interviewed, often held back emotionally at the beginning of relationships for fear that their private messages would be shared or exposed or ridiculed later on. To what extent, given your research into this, do you think this causes more polarisation

between the sexes? I think seeing a sharp generational split, so young women, there's real polarisation between the sexes and the under 30s. And this is politically, young women are moving left while young men are trending right

and that clash of values is playing out in heterosexual dating. Apps initially promised liberation from traditional gender roles, but they've often entrenched them and people can feel pitched against each other with women waiting for men to make the first move and men are feeling pressure to take on the risk of rejection. So there is a real divide,

particularly amongst younger heterosexual dating app users. And we heard there from Jackie just kind of the level of vitriol and misogyny that you can see online. How prevalent is that when it comes to online dating, Misogyny is rife in online dating. So more than half of women who use dating apps have reported abuse or harassment. And while those platforms are now offering tools to help report abuse, the responsibility for flagging and managing that behaviour still falls disproportionately on women.

And at the same time, I think dating apps can reinforce toxic narratives with some men internalising rejection as injustice, and that frustration can be exploited by online spaces that promote misogynist ideologies, like in cell forums. I mean, the irony here is that this app was supposedly set up to help keep women safe. Do safe online spaces exist for women? Because, you know, as we've seen here, an app designed to help with this has ended up doing exactly the opposite. There are huge risks of it online.

And I think generally in dating and in relationships there are risks. And I think it's reflective of an attempt to try and place order on something that is almost unmanageable or is just really risky and hard. to control. And there are obviously risks before the internet and there are risks now that have been worsened by online, this is kind of misogyny online. I just wondered what you make of the growth of AI and how you think this will impact online dating. It's bringing new risks to online dating. Not just the obvious fraud or catfishing, but I think the loss of human authenticity. So match group who are in Tinder and Hinge have invested heavily in AI. And apps are already using AI to write profiles and craft messages.

The danger is that people who rely on these tools may struggle in real-life interactions and may feel anxious on actual dates and they may retreat further into the digital world. And as Jackie said, there's a lot of risks involved in the digital spaces. When you say AI is being used to kind of write profile, are you saying that there's a risk that you may go on and interact with what you think is a human being

but is actually an AI-generated profile? There's definitely that risk, and there have always been bots on online dating. That's been a major complaint from users. But I think also just actual users themselves are feeling insecure about their communication ability or ability to flirt and using AI to help craft messages in that way. So it's not necessarily written with bad intentions, but it can mean that we don't feel confident meeting people in real life. I can remember just about when online dating became a big thing.

and then the growth of online dating, I wondered if you'd seen in your research whether these sort of escalating risks are turning people away from online dating. Do you think we will see a return to more traditional forms of meeting people or something else actually entirely? I think we already are.

So we're seeing a real shift, particularly amongst those under 30. So all major dating apps have reported steep declines in heterosexual genie users over the past year. And some are turning to clubs or other in-person spaces to try to meet people. However, I think we're also seeing a rejection of relationships generally,

and globally relationship formation is slowing. There's sharp declines in marriage and cohabitation among young adults, almost universally. And also in sexual behaviour as well, for example, US data shows that a quarter of men aged between 22 and 34 reported no sexual activity in the past year. So this is a major behavioural shift we're seeing. So I think there's a growing evidence that Gen Z is moving away

from traditional dating and long-term relationships. And maybe intimacy and connection is taking places in ways that fall outside traditional models of dating and marriage that don't necessarily work for them or just aren't available to them. Jackie, I just want to come back to you. But before I do, I just want to read a statement that we've got from the T-Ap.

They say that we are continuing to investigate the July cyber incident. And today, we've taken the impacted systems offline. We've sought law enforcement assistance. We've executed enterprise-wide. Password Resets and we've engaged cyber security experts. Now, just coming back to them, when are we more likely to hear what's happening with these lawsuits that are being brought in the US? Sure. So they're still consolidating the class actions at the moment.

They were all 10 of them were all separate when they were filed. So at the moment, they're just coming up with their strategy and coming together as a unit. We're likely to hear something in the coming weeks as they consolidate. their strategy and find out what's happening next. Jackie and Jenny, thank you very much for coming onto Women's Hour. That was BBC World Service reporter Jackie Wakefield and Dr. Jenny Vanhofe, sociologist at Manchester Metropolitan University. Now, my next guest is already in the studio.

You may not have just seen her. You may also have heard her because she's been a pop star for almost a decade. and she's still only 22. At 14, she won the first series of the voice kids. She then later triumphed on X Factor the band with pop group RLY. And since then, she's been carving out a career as a songwriter and releasing music under her own name. But now, Jess Folly steps into the corset and heels made famous by Christina Aguilera no less

to play the lead role of Ali Rose in Belesk, the musical at the Savoy Theatre. Not only is Jess starring in the show, but she's also written some of its songs as well. Jess, a very warm welcome to Women's Hour. Thanks for coming in. Hi, thank you. Thank you for having me. You're all the way over there at the piano

because you're going to play a song for us shortly. But look, before we start, I want to say, I went to see Berlesque on Tuesday night and you were utterly fabulous in it. Thank you. Just tell us about Berlesque. Who is the character you're playing? And what do audiences need to know about the show?

Oh, wow. I mean, I play Ali Rose, who was originated by Christina Aguilera in the film, and she is a 20-year-old singer. You know, she doesn't know quite that she's a singer yet, but she has this voice and she's from a small town, Iowa, and she sings in her church choir and she loses her mom about six months before the show kind of begins. and she finds this letter from her mom basically saying that she's adopted and she should go and look for her birth mother in New York. And she really doesn't like fit in where she is. She's got this voice. She loves to sing.

She's got this passion that she doesn't know where it comes from. She's always felt like she's an odd bod. And so she goes in search for her mother and where she kind of gets this voice and this kind of star quality. from. And then you kind of follow her trajectory through the show. It's a beautiful role and story to portray. Well, she's got a big voice, a big heart, and there's some big show-stopping numbers in the show. Let's talk about burlesque as an art form, because people, you know, might still associate it with striptease, not wearing many clothes. Did the show change your

understanding of burlesque? You know, it's funny, because I actually have a line in the show where Ali kind of comes in and kind of thinks the same thing. She's like, oh, I think I say, hey, funny, but you know when I first got here, I thought it was a strip club and the entire like cast on stage are like, and it's like this big frowned upon thing because it's so not that. So even she's confused when she first walks into the club.

I wouldn't necessarily say it's changed my view of it. I feel like I did a lot of research into Balesca going through this process and knew the kind of history of comedy and talent and you know sexiness empowerment that kind of has grown with the with the art form itself and I feel like we embodied that really nicely in the show and there's loads of humour and and there's loads of fun and sexiness and a really empowering moments um so I feel like it's it's nice to come and watch the show and really get a taste of of you know old school traditional more or less, but also like a modern twist on it too.

And you gave us a hint there because obviously the show's American. And you have a great American acting. Was it hard to master? Do you know what? I act alongside Americans, which I really think helps. I think I remember sitting down with like, I think when you're, when you're, I pay really close attention to like how Todrick and Orfei and everyone speaks. And even last year when we were doing previews, we had Americans and my, my, my,

cover last year was an American girl. So I would listen to her read the lines that I was saying and kind of pick up on little mannerisms that I would have Britishisms and I'd try and get rid of them in my American speech and stuff. And I guess, yeah, I've just been doing it for three years now. So I'm relatively comfortable. But yeah, acting alongside Americans definitely helps. And the musical, it's, you know, it's a reversioning of a film back from 2010,

which starred Christina Aguilera and Cher. And now you're playing Christina Aguilera's role. What was it like to step in to those shoes? Definitely intimidating. But I think I kind of went in originally. And I always say this. It's like right from the very beginning. Like nobody's going to do Christina Aguilera like Christina Aguilera.

Nobody's going to be her. I am never going to be that. Like I can only be myself. And I've really tried to, I think being a composer on the show has really helped. because, I mean, there's no better way to get inside a character's brain than to write for them. But I kind of set out at the beginning of this process when I was 19 to not do a carbon copy of Christina

and really try and pay as much respect to her as possible. And, you know, there's definitely, you definitely get enough of Christina in the acting and in the vocal choices and stuff. You definitely get it. But at the same time, it's definitely a bit of my own take on it. Just because I think that I can, I'll do that better than I will trying to emulate exactly what Christina did. But like I said, you definitely get enough of,

get enough of her mannerisms and stuff. Well, she's been full of praise for your performance, hasn't she? What did that feel like? Very surreal. I was terrified when she came to watch the show and I actually didn't like deep it at all until about five minutes before the curtain went up. And then I was like, oh my God,

Christine Nogler is about to watch me sing. songs that she sings. So it was definitely intimidating, but yeah, she's been so lovely and so generous and kind with her words and her thoughts. And yeah, it's been really, really nice. Well, having seen the show the other night,

I was kind of blown away by how powerful your voice is. So let's go right back. When did you start singing? Gosh, I started, I don't ever remember not singing. I think I basically, you know, was like two or three. and was just sing around the house I would watch um watch singers on the TV and and try and emulate them and I would watch things like high school musical and like want to reenact it in my living room and my dad like built me a

mic out of like tin like a cardboard like a cardboard like cylinder and and some tinfoil um oh that beats using a hairbrush yeah yeah no he was I was like no the hairbrush isn't going to cut it um so yeah I just I've always I've always um I think I started singing lessons when I was probably about five or six when my parents sort of realized that I was, that I really, really wanted to do it. And yeah, just never, never stopped, really. Did you come from a musical family?

Not really. No, my mum's a lawyer, so she's, you know, she's tone deaf, bless her. But she's got quite a good ear, but you can't actually sing it. My dad actually was in like an amateur band, like growing up. And he's quite musical. He, he never did it professionally. but he would like play me and my brother like ACDC and Guns and Roses and like rock music when we were like kids and and loads of different like styles of music and country and

jazz and blues and I feel like I got a lot of exposure to music young from my dad but um no one did it professionally so that kind of came out a bit out of the blue you're you're only 22 now but I mean some people will remember you from the voice kids where you won at the age of it 14 yeah Yeah, that was, yeah, that was a throwback. How did that come about? Do you know what? I grew up in Essex, and the circuit in Essex for young performers is really, really great. And I was really lucky to grow up there.

There was loads of opportunities for, you know, doing open mics and little competitions and lessons and dance and singing and all of this. So every week, I mean, I had no social life as a kid. I would just go to school and then go to dance or go to dance. to school and then go to singing or or go to school and then an open mic or I think I started gigging in pubs when I was like nine and like the people were trying to watch the football and they're like what is this kid doing like get her off and like um we're trying to enjoy our pint on a Sunday and there's nine year old singing something um but uh just laughing at the image um so I

I was doing all of these things and we used to have like scouts come to like the open mics and stuff and I got scouted for the voice when I was 13 and I actually couldn't do the audition I remember because we were going on holiday or something and I think I was like I didn't have that much confidence in doing it and I was like I don't know I don't know and then they actually invited me to come in earlier with an audition with the adults but for the kids version so that I could make the audition and yeah I did that and then yeah kind of led on from there and he didn't just do the voice you also did X Factor the band a couple of years later.

Yeah. Was that a natural progression or? No. I said to myself, I was like, I'm not doing, I've done the TV show thing now. Like, I never really set out to do the TV show thing in the first place. I was like, I'm not doing another one. And then it came round and I remember I was in, I'd just started college. I'd just started a music college in East London.

And my head of music there, I think I, again, I got scouted for it. And so someone had reached out and been like, hey, we want you to audition. And that's quite often how these like TV shows work. is like people reach out and um i'd kind of been like i don't know and i'd said to my my head of music i was like what do you think and he was like just go and do the audition and again i think because i never really expect it to go any further than like the original i try not to think too far ahead so i was like i guess just getting in the room is great and i'm always i never like to turn down opportunities like i feel like a privilege whenever i get an opportunity so i find it really hard to be like no

um so i was like oh just go to the audition and if anything it's like good audition experience and I was singing my own music for the producers and stuff and I was like at the time it was it was bad now listening to it but like at the time I was like you know this is the stuff I'm writing right now and it feels authentic to me and and that kind of just gave me it got me seen by people and then it led on and then I met the girls who I'm still friends with now who I was in the girl band with and yeah it just it was all I don't regret any of it it was really good experience and you don't you don't just sing you songwriter as well and I guess that's a great thing about Ballest the musical. It's had various people write music to the show

including you. And the song you wrote, got it all from you, has stayed in the show the whole way through. Yeah. Yeah. I am, yeah, obviously in these sort of processes, in these sorts of processes, songs go in and out and, and, you know, but that song was actually the first, it was actually what got me involved in the project. I didn't audition for the role or anything. I was never, never meant to be in the show. I just kind of came. in and was speaking to the producers about writing for theatre in general because I felt really passionately about it and I was a theatre kid and I was working in the music industry and I was like I just want to write for theatre right now like I just want to have my foot in the door

almost as like a passion project and and I needed something to kind of ignite my love of writing again at that time when I was 19 and and they needed Ali's I Want song and you know it's the most important song she sings really my character sings that you know it's her whole trajectory of the show and the journey she goes on and it follows her throughout the whole show and you often hear the hook come back throughout the show.

Amazing, I mean, obviously, listeners at home can't see but I can see all the emotions playing across your face as you sing. And that's a song you wrote, composed, and now sing yourself. Yeah. It must mean a lot to you. Oh, God, yeah. It's like my, yeah, it's my baby that song.

And I'm not really that precious about songs, but that song is definitely very, very, very special to me. You've said that songwriting has literally become a kind of therapy for you. Can you explain that? What do you mean by that? I think, I think a lot of musicians will relate to this. that like we're not the best at like explaining our feelings and I think I worked out from very young that I was able to put it into a song a lot better than I was able to put it

into words and I've had to kind of learn how to articulate myself verbally um more so than than you know I like couldn't you know now um when I was growing up I kind of worked out that I could put it into a song a lot easier and I mean it's funny like my recent EP um 18 and anxious that I just put out a couple of months ago is actually a collection of songs that I wrote because my management at the time had, I don't want to say force, that sounds bad, like encouraged me to go into therapy and I was not keen on the idea at the time and I didn't want to talk. So I would sit in silence in these therapy sessions and I would then, when it ended, I would write these songs and email them to my therapist as basically a diversion tactic of like, now don't ask me, because

You've got all the information here. We don't need to talk about it. And how did they respond to that? They didn't write you a song back, presumably. You can imagine? I don't even remember. I think he would just like, he would, I don't know. Like, he would just, we'd end up,

he'd try and, like, talk to me about it. And, you know, he'd kind of, you know, skirt around it. And I guess eventually I ended up opening up and found it very helpful. And it just took a long time. And I think, like, those songs on that EP were, like, never meant to come out. It was just that they were songs that I wrote basically to explain what I couldn't verbalise

at the time. And then I just put a collection of them together in a chronological order and put them on this EP as kind of like a, you know, a diary for my therapist and then put it out. And now many of the reviews for Bolesk are coming out. And a lot of them are singling you out for your incredible voice. You must feel vindicated. yeah i think it's it's really lovely to like work so hard for something and and you know i've like busted my you know i've really i've really you know busted my balls on this project and really

you know given my all to it and and put a lot of hours beyond hours and and you know working on it and it's lovely to to have people uh just not recognize that you know but like see it and appreciate it and it's the fundamentally i want to I give a good show to people and I want people to come and feel satisfied. You know, it's big boots to fill with Christina Aguilera and the film is so iconic that I want people to come and watch the show and feel like they've got that and more. So yeah, it's nice that people are enjoying it. What reaction are you getting from the audience?

Because when I was there on Tuesday night, it was a roaring crowd. They're crazy. I don't know. I don't think it's normal. Honestly, like we have always had incredible audiences. I think that we just attract a type of breed that is feral. I love it. We adore it because it's like you need it for this sort of show.

It's like we don't like people sitting in silence and like, you know, just like, you know, clapping in every so often off and off numbers. It's like people screaming, laughing. Like it's such an immersive kind of experience for everyone involved. And we get so much energy from the chaos of the audience. So I love it. But it is crazy. The audiences are wild.

Look, Jess, I just want to wish you the best of luck with the. Thank you so much for coming into the Women's Hour studio and for singing for us. Oh, bless you. Thank you so much for having me. That was Jess Folly. And you can see and listen to her in Burlese, the musical, which is on at the London Savoy Theatre. And Jess's EP 18 and Anxious is available now too. You can text Women's Hour on 84844 and you have been texting us.

You've been telling us all about your dating experiences. Now, Kylie says, I tried online dating. my late 20s with some success, but if I'm honest, I always found it a bit difficult to connect with somebody in person after a few messages back and forth. Around the same time, I joined a rowing club in London and learnt to row. A year after, I got together with my now husband and we will have been married 10 years next September. Oh, very happy anniversary to you. Jades also messaged in. She says, I met my fiancée on Bumble four years ago. I'd been on about five dates before I met him and I made sure to chat to them for a few weeks before I went out with them.

I had my friends, a guy friend to read my profile and give me feedback. I was very specific about what I wanted and I was honest. I can't wait to marry my lovely man in eight months' time. There is hope out there. And someone else has texted in saying, not dating, but at the end of 2023, I saw a post on Facebook that someone wanted to set up a social group for single people. It was a wide age range, 40 to 60. I joined and it has been life-changing.

We now have over 1,900 members. There are subgroups for salsa classes, tennis classes, bi-weekly walks, Spanish classes and many more. We've had a few relationships formed, but primarily it's all about the friendships. Oh, thank you very much for getting in touch. Now, I want to turn to some promising research, which has been published,

which could pave the way for reducing the incidence of Alzheimer's in women. It shows women with the disease, have lower levels of omega fatty acids than men. Now, there's been some debate about whether we should be taking fish oil supplements for some time. So will this research answer the question? Dr. Christina Legido-Quigley is the lead researcher for this study from King's College, London, and Dr Susan Colhouse is from Alzheimer's Research UK, which helped fund the work. Christina and Susan, a warm welcome to Women's Hour.

Thank you for joining us. Thank you. Christina, if I start with you first, tell us why you decided to look at this. So we've been doing this type of research for around 15 years. And the specialty that we have in my lab is looking at fatty molecules or lipids. And we look at many of these molecules. so we can analyze a bit of blood and then we see thousands of these molecules.

And this is the first time, if I understand correctly, men and women have been separated in a study like this. Yes, this is the first time that we had enough individuals to be able to have the statistical power to separate women and men and then seeing the differences of the difference. It's correct. And so what exactly did you find? So the biggest takeaway is that in Alzheimer's disease,

it appears to be fundamentally differences in women versus men at the lipid molecular level. And the lipids that we saw that were reduced the most are called phosphocolins, which have omega-fat acids attached to them. So this is where the news about the omega fatty acids is coming up. Susan, if I can just bring you in here, can you just put this into context first? What is the incidence of Alzheimer's in women? So Alzheimer's is more common in women than men.

So it's about two to three times more common in women than men. We don't fully understand that. So a lot of people make the assumption that it's because Alzheimer's is a disease of aging and women live longer than men, but the difference can't be explained by that alone. So there are lots of differences that we're looking at, things like hormonal differences, differences in diet,

lots of things like that that we need to look at. This is a really important study because for the first time, we've seen a change in the level of fatty acids in women with Alzheimer's, but we haven't seen that change in men with Alzheimer's. So it's making a suggestion that there are different things happening.

in women than in men. And we need to start doing studies that are big enough that look at the differences between women and men because we know there are biological differences and that's got to be something that we're looking at. And in the past, some studies have seemed to show that taking fish oils might not help or could be helpful. I mean, what is the advice out there?

Should we all be taking them? So there's really conflicting information out there because it's really conflicting studies. But the problem is, and that's why this study is so important, this study has shown that there's a difference between women and men, but the studies that have been done to date looking at whether fish oils prevent dementia have been done on the whole population. So, you know, unless you're able to kind of say,

okay, is this a specific effect in women and test that in a trial, you wouldn't be able to draw a firm conclusion. And so this research, and we're really proud to be able to support this, is showing us that it's not good enough to do studies in a whole population without being able to determine the differences that might be occurring between women and men. And Christina, obviously, this is a real breakthrough at the moment. What happens next? So for our research, now we want to have a look at the women,

at earlier age. So we're going to be looking at the midlife and maybe some of the associations with changes that happen during the menopause because the hormones in themselves are also lipids. So we think that there are links between some lipids disappearing and some other ones that increase at midlife as well. And Susan, you said there that, you know, you helped fund this work. How easy is it to fund more clinical studies?

So it's really difficult. There are some gaps. Alzheimer's Research UK is reliant on donations from the public to fund work. And a lot of our work is about raising awareness that dementia isn't just an inevitability of old age, that it's a disease that happens in the brain. And diseases can be treated. if we're able to find treatments. And so we're trying to sort of tackle that misconception.

One of the things we've done in the last couple of years is set up a clinical accelerator program. We know there aren't enough trial active clinicians. So clinicians who are able to do clinical trials or clinical studies in people with dementia. So part of that work is setting up in training a new generation of researchers that can do that. And the other part is starting to fund early stage.

clinical trials to really make the case for further work in later stage trials so that we can develop new treatments as quickly as possible. But again, we're reliant on donations to do that. And we're really, you know, really pleased to be able to support this work, but also hopefully future work in that clinical space as well. So today's, you know, a momentous day, but still actually a very long way to go. Yes, there's a lot to do. Christina and Susan, thank you very much for coming onto Women's Hour. That was Dr. Christina Legida Quigley lead researcher from King's College London and Dr Susan Colhuss from the Alzheimer's Research UK.

Now, journalism is sometimes described as the first draft of history. But what if no draft of history exists or it barely exists? Well, former journalist turned author Elodie Harper has gained a reputation for going back to ancient times to reimagine the lives and experiences of historical women often hidden in the margins. Her trilogy The Wolf Den breathed life into the prostituted and enslaved women whose names can still be seen graffitied on the walls of the brothel at Pompeii. And now her latest book, which is part adventure story, part family saga, is called Budica's

daughter, a fictionalised historical account of both Budica, the warrior queen who revolted against Roman rule in ancient Britain and her eldest child. Elodie, welcome to women's hour. Thanks very much for coming in. Oh, thank you so much for having me. It's such a pleasure. Now, Budica, that's a name that many of us will know, will recognise famous for riding into battle against the Romans. But really, just how much do we know about her and her daughters? You're absolutely right that she's this iconic figure. And sometimes it's easy to forget that she was real because she seems like something from myth. It was astonishing what she did. She nearly drove the Romans from ancient Britain. And we know that she had two daughters. and that they played this pivotal role in the rebellion.

But the way that they have been remembered in the Roman sources is very patchy and very disappointing, really. So we know that the rape of the two daughters after their father left them jointly, heirs to the kingdom of the Isini, which is in East Anglia. They were raped by Roman soldiers. Budika was flogged. It was, you know, an appalling atrocity,

and it was that that prompted their mother to go into battle. But we don't know their names. And I just felt it was such an injustice that these two women, this is all that we know about them, that they were attacked in this way. You know, this is one incident out of their lives, which would have been extraordinary lives, having such a mother and having taken part in such an extraordinary period of history. I mean, we know so little about them, but I do want to talk about this. There is a statue of them. And we recently discussed statues of women on Women's Hour. And the fact that there are still more statues of men called John.

then of women in the UK. That's so awful. Unbelievable, I know. But I understand that it was a statue of Budica in her chariot, which informed your writing. And her two daughters are in this statue as well, aren't they? Yes, absolutely. So the statue is really interesting because it's Budika in her war chariot, not doing anything. So ridiculous is holding reins.

I mean, she's just holding her arms out. I'm not quite sure how the chariot's driving. But it's directed straight at the houses of Parliament, which I find interesting, as she's a British leader sort of attacking the British government. But that in a sense, it has some meaning too because of course when Budica sacked the Roman colonies of Colchester and London and St Albans, there are a lot of British people living there too.

So one of the things about the statue and the way that Budica appears to be facing off against her own is the fact that any rebellion like this is incredibly messy. It's not an idealistic, although it is written partly as an adventure. story, you know, it is a real war and it's very messy. And you've got her two daughters on either side. And from certain angles of the statue, you can't even see them.

It's like even though they are, as you say, some of the few women actually memorialised in statue in the UK, they're still almost forgotten there too. People know that it's a statue of Budica. They don't really think about the daughters also pretty annoying that their clothes seem to be half falling off, which is also a way that women are always being memorialised. I'm sure they weren't scantily clad as they went into battle, but anyway. But sexualised in this very moment of them on the chariot. Yes, exactly.

And as you say, you know, it's hard to spot them, even in this statue because Budacus so outflanks them. And yet, when you chose to write this novel, you focused on her eldest daughter in particular. Why did you decide to do that? So I wanted to focus on just one of the daughters to really get to grips with her story, to write a book which is incredibly full about all aspects of her life. So her relationship as a daughter, as a sister, as a warrior, later as a woman whose mother and people are defeated and she has to make some accommodation with Rome.

How does resistance continue in her life? How does she find any happiness? How does she remain authentic to herself in any way? I just thought this was an incredible story to be able to write. And also just from a dramatic point of view, you've got the rebellion, you've got the aftermath, and then she goes to Rome. So it's seeing, because I'm so fascinated by ancient Rome, to see it through the eyes, to write it through the eyes of an outsider like Selena, that's the name I gave the eldest daughter, was really interesting to me because I think we still have Roman history so much through the eyes of the Romans and not the people they colonised that we can take their word that they were like this master civilization or whatever. In fact, the Isini, where Selina came from, was an alternative civilisation where women held infinitely more power than they did in Rome. Budica was not the only female ruler and warrior at this time in ancient Britain.

There were other queens. And that's what's so interesting about the revolt. And you mentioned this in your novel. It was seen as very shameful to the Romans that such a powerful revolt had been led by a female warrior and a leader of a tribe. Yes, they just didn't do things that way. You know, women didn't hold avert power like that. And Tacitus says, you know, the Britons don't distinguish between the sexes when choosing commanders. And I think for us, even that's a challenge.

I think we are so used to seeing history in this way where the women are kind of shadowy figures. You know, they're not powerful or they have to exercise power through men. And actually, no, you know, the dominant histories we've been given have been written that way. But, you know, Budica was exercising power in her own right. Prasitagas, her husband, he wanted the kingdom to go to his daughters. We don't know actually in the historical record if they had any

sons. Maybe this was a society in which power passed through the female line. You know, there are so many things we don't know and that archaeology are beginning to discover about these people. But the one thing we do know is that women had much more power. And I guess you said earlier

one of the very few facts that we know about her daughters is that they were raped by Roman soldiers. and that's what sparked the revolt led by her mother. And you described that in a certain way in your book. Would you be able to read us a section of that? Yes. So before sort of reading this extract,

I just wanted to explain that in writing about the sexual violence, because I'm aware this is the only fact, more or less about these two women that has been handed down to us, I didn't want it to become the overwhelming dominant fact in the book. and also the way that I write about sexual violence, it's very important to me that it's not graphic, it's not gratuitous. So for Selena, she doesn't remember everything that happens, and that was both to be realistic in the presentation of trauma,

but also for the reader and for myself not to make it too distressing. So this is after the attack when she's trying to piece together what happened. other images cascade through my mind swift and hard as hail in a storm the doorway to our home dark with the figures of men the bright silver of a roman sword pointed at my mother the red of my cousin isu's hair on the floor my sister's face when they seized her and my mother surrounded fighting until they swarmed her like ants devouring her i cover my face with my hands the images are disjointed as if my memory were a glass vessel smashed into peace I do not want to touch their edges. I do not want to see. That's beautiful. And I just wanted to touch on what you said just then about, you know, the act of violence against them

because you discussed the concept of female honour and how it can be brought back after this. Will you just talk us through that? Yes. So it really mattered to me as well and, you know, sort of thinking about modern parallels too, that the notion of the, of millennia, younger daughter and Selena, the elder daughter, winning back their honour, was really as warriors

rather than it being some concept of lost sexual honour. So it's an act of violence. They were overpowered. They were unarmed. And when their mother goes to muster warriors, this is part of what she says, is, you know, if my daughters had been armed, if it had been a fair fight, they would have won. And so that's part of the motivation for the rebellion, for them to win their honour as as warriors, rather than this kind of notion of women dishonoured because of sexual assault. And El-Ele, just very briefly before we go, tell us, do you have any plans for your next book or will you be staying again in antiquity? So there's not a huge amount I can say about the next book. But what I can say is that, you know, one of the parts I really enjoyed writing about Budica's daughter was Nero's court, the decadence, the craziness, the wildness of it.

And so it's that side of ancient Rome that I'm going to be writing about in my next project is really thinking of the kind of the imperial character. project. Thank you so much. That was Elodie Harper, and Elodie's novel, Budica's daughter, is out a week today on the 28th of August. You can join Anita tomorrow for a very special programme where she'll be live from Blade and Rugby Club in Gateshead to mark the start of the Women's Rugby World Cup. That's all for today's women's hour. Join us again next time. I'm Tim Hayward, presenter of The Trip, coming soon to BBC Radio 4's Understand feed. Psychedelics, a category of drugs that induce altered states, are having something of a moment. Over ten episodes, I'll be diving deep into a rapidly evolving landscape, from an inflatable head to the glands of a particular toad, from the past and into the future, I'll be asking, what does it all mean?

That's the trip with me, Tim Hayward. Listen first on BBC Sands.