Woman's Hour - 22/12/2025

Episode Date: December 22, 2025

Women's voices and women's lives - topical conversations to inform, challenge and inspire.

Hello, I'm Dashiani Novanegam and welcome to Women's Hour on BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. I hope you've had a lovely weekend. Although, let's be honest, if you ventured anywhere near the shops, well, lovely might not be quite the word. We are just three days away from Christmas after all. I know you don't need reminding. How did that happen? It feels like it comes around faster every year, at least for me. But if you were out this weekend, you out there battling the crowds doing some last minute shopping? How did it go? Did you survive? Or maybe you're still avoiding it entirely, in which case all my festive good luck wishes are coming your way.

But I wanted to ask, have you ever thought about Christmas shopping from the other side of the tills? The reason I'm asking is because I'll be speaking to one woman who's worked in retail for the last eight years about what this time of year is really like when you're serving the public. If you work or have worked in retail, let us know how it's been for you. We'll also hear from campaigners about why the government's recent decision to stop funding its flagship international program to prevent female genital mutilation impacts women and girls in this country. And also on the program, psychologist and agony aunt, Philippa Perry and social media queen of the dinner party, Matilda B, will be joining me to talk about

the psychology of hosting, especially when Christmas turns up the pressure. So we're asking, what sort of host are you? What things do you really care about getting right on Christmas Day? Food, drinks, gifts, cleaning the home? Or are you more of a sit back and let the chaos unfold? Look, there's no getting around it. I know this is an extremely. extremely stressful time of the year or it can be. So if you are wondering about how to deal with that difficult relative or how to politely dodge an invite or just how to stay sane on the big day.

Well, stay with us. We've got you covered. Get in touch in all the usual ways. The text number is 84844. You can WhatsApp the program on 0300-100-444 or you can email us through the website. But now to a story that's been dominating. the headlines over the weekend,

thousands of pages of documents related to the late sex offender Jeffrey Epstein's abuse were released by the US Department of Justice last Friday. The DOJ then removed at least 13 files from the website without explanation by Saturday

because of concerns raised by victims, according to the Deputy Attorney General. One of the images removed included a photograph of US President Donald Trump. Well, the DOJ stated that these files were taken down out of an abundance of caution to allow for further review, particularly to ensure no victims were identifiable.

Authorities have identified 1,200 alleged victims, the majority of which were girls and young women, and some of them have raised concerns about the slow release of the documents. Well, BBC correspondent Joe Inwood joins me now. Joe, welcome to Women's Hour. Thank you for having me. A lot's been happening over the weekend. So just bring us up to date with why these files were so highly anticipated, first of all.

So this has been a huge political scandal, a political hot topic in America for years now. It's been what happened to Geoffrey Epstein and what he got up to all those years ago has been a sort of huge controversy, and putting it bluntly, of conspiracy theories about accusations of a sort of a cabal of influential men abusing young girls. And, I mean, putting it being frank, it was also weaponised by Donald Trump very effectively in his sort of political campaign to get re-elected to the White House. Interestingly, he then, upon getting into the White House, seemed to change his tune quite significantly and went from calling it a huge political issue to a hoax, the Epstein hoax he called it. But they have now been forced to have them released,

and that's what we got on Friday evening. And can you tell us what exactly was in them? The truth is, it was something of a disappointment, something that was rather underwhelming for people who had expected there to be revelations of some huge scandal. I mean, I was going through some of the documents. There were hundreds and hundreds of pages of completely redacted, completely blacked out documents.

There was one that was literally 100 pages, every single one, just big black boxes. And I think, whereas people, were hoping for smoking guns. Actually, what they got was photos of people who we already knew were associated with Jeffrey Epstein and lots and lots of names redacted, of faces redacted. And I think for many people, this has been seen as slightly underwhelming. It is worth pointing out that we have only had just a small percentage of the total documents. There's something like 300 gigabytes of data, a huge amount of data in total, and I think we've had about three gigabytes

so far. And we know that one of the big concerns is that victims may have been identifiable. Were victims or the representatives consulted before these files were published? Yes. So there's been a process. And it's all been slightly behind closed doors, as you could imagine, with a legal process like this. But it's understood that representative of victims would be able to, could say, I want my name redacted, or this is me, I think I'm there, that has been spoken about. And so it's one of the things that the Department of justice have been trying to do. And I think to be fair to them on this, there is a huge amount of data to go through. And it's one of the reasons that there have been delays is that they

have been going through and trying to redact any names of people who could have been a victim of Geoffrey Epstein. Well, the lawyer Gloria Allred has represented 27 survivors in the Epstein case and alleged victims of Jelaine Maxwell. What has she said about how the release of these documents and the subsequent removal of some of the images has affected the survivors. Yeah, so she gave quite an interesting interview to Canadian television over the weekend and she was, you know, saying that there's actually two slightly contradictory ambitions that she had. On the one hand, she was saying that her victims, well, she wanted to make sure that survivors of Jeffrey Epstein had their names redacted and she was saying that

actually she had highlighted to the Department of Justice, some of the people who she thought might be identifiable from the documents. But then she's also said that she has concerns about the level of redaction. So you do have these slightly opposing desires on the behalf of people who are, who alleged that they were victims of Geoffrey Epstein. On the one hand, not to have their data in public, but on the other hand, to get the full openness that they want to see happen. And what are victims themselves calling for? What have they said about this? So throughout this whole process for many years, what they've said they wanted is people to be held accountable. In the end, only one person has gone to jail for the alleged crimes of

Jeffrey Epstein, and that is Galane Maxwell. The only person who's gone to jail is a woman. I think that's really worth reminding ourselves of, because the suggestion is that there were lots and lots of high-profile wealthy men who were engaged in criminal activities. Now, one thing it is really important to emphasise is just because somebody appears in these documents, that is not a suggestion that they have done anything wrong. There are lots and lots of photos we've seen. here, which are without context, and we don't know where they were taken, when they were taken, but they just show famous people. And it's always worth reminding people of that. Not everyone who associated with him was necessarily doing anything wrong. But what the campaigners say

is that they want to see openness, accountability, and for people who they alleged to have done wrong to be held accountable for it. Yeah, it's really important not to speculate about those photos. But can I ask, you know, do you think this temporary removal of the files goes some way to undermining public trust in the transparency of this process? I would say that it's not the removal of the photos so much because there is, of course, there's a reasonable, you know, we heard from Gloria all read earlier and she was saying that they had complained that some people were identifiable. And that's the explanation given by the Department of Justice,

that victims and their lawyers had complained. And so they've taken the back, redacted them, the phrase they used is an abundance, of caution. I think the thing that is leading to concern is just the sheer level of redaction. Now, maybe the Department of Justice are reasonable in saying we want to make sure that nobody is identifiable. But it doesn't, I think for some people, it doesn't feel like it is a transparent process. And just the sheer volume of material that we're not seeing leads people to think, well, maybe we're not seeing a lot of the most potentially explosive or potentially interesting material. Now one thing that it is worth pointing out is that Department of Justice,

and this was agreed in the law that has led to this whole process, the Department of Justice have redacted anything which could potentially show and identify victims, which would potentially show child abuse, and this is a really important one, or that could potentially prejudice or jeopardise an ongoing investigation. Now, if you take those three things together, that's basically going to rule out most of the material that people would find particularly revelatory. We'll have to leave it there, but thank you very much for the update, Joe. That was Joe Inwood, BBC correspondent joining us this morning. Now, it is the season for dinner parties, drinks with friends and the big one, Christmas Day itself. But alongside the mince pies and mulled wine

often comes a lot of pressure, especially for women, who can feel responsible for everything from the food to the mood in the room. So are you spending hours making homemade pastry and hoovering behind the sofa, or just chucking some ready-made snacks in the air friar? And how can we enjoy the most wonderful time of this year? Well, a little bit more. Well, joining us to discuss the psychology of being not just a good host, but a happy host, our psychologist and Agniant

behind the Ask Philippa Substack, Philippa Perry, and Queen of the Dinner Party, Matilda Bee, whose social media videos about hosting are watched by millions of people. Welcome, both of you. Hello. Hi, hi. Philippa, let's start with you

because we were talking on Women's Hour just a couple of weeks ago about smart versus scruffy hosting. Now, would you say you are a smart or a scruffy host? I'm somewhere in between, I think. I just go as scruffy as I can get away with. But if you're too scruffy, if you've got piles of laundry on the chairs, that is not welcoming.

So I think that you've got to sort of make space for your guests. So clear the clutter off a bit. But on the other hand, I don't think you need to spring, clean the house and colour coordinate every cushion before they arrive. Matilda, what about you? I think most people would probably see my videos and say very smart. But I definitely have my kind of quick, easy wins. My mum sometimes laughs.

I've got my kind of hidden trick of putting everything in a cupboard and closing the doors and hoping that no one opens them. Oh, haven't we all? Yeah, exactly. But, you know, everyone has their quick, easy wins to make things look immaculate, but maybe hidden behind the scenes. You've got your kind of tips and tricks and make life easier. Well, let's talk about the stresses of hosting because, you know, there's a lot of

question. People do get nervous about their own expectations and other people's expectations. Philippa, just explain why do women get so stressed when it comes to hosting? Well, talking personally, I think a lot of the stress I get when it comes to hosting, I've inherited from my mother. So we inherit, we watch our parents get stress because visitors are coming around. And we sort of inherit it in our body, sort of this is what you do. But it's sort of unconscious.

When people come around, you know, you have to be a bit nervous and everything has to be perfect. And when I get into that state, my husband says to me, oh, I think Nance, that's my mother. I think Nance is in the room because he says I sort of turn into this other person, which is my mother, when people are coming around. And then do you dial it back down after that? Well, the way I learned to dial it back down was when my husband threw me a surprise party and I wasn't expecting it at all and it was in our home. and there was newspapers on the kitchen table, there was no food prepared, and just a load of wine arrived at the same time as the guests. And we had a fantastic time, and he ordered in, you know, pizzas or something.

So no food preparation at all. And I just thought, the house was quite untidy. Everybody sort of just turned up, and it was a brilliant time. And I just thought, after that, I thought, right, I don't have to sweat it like I thought I had to. And no one complained. I learned to relax after that. Yeah. And luckily that was about 20 years ago.

So I'm a lot more relaxed as a host these days. And I think the trick is to relax as a host is to pretend it's not your party. And then you really enjoy the people there rather than worrying whether they're enjoying themselves. Like when you go to a party and it's not your party, you just enjoy it. So why not take that attitude to your own party? Pretend it's not your party. People are responsible for introducing themselves to other people and having a good time. I mean, you can do a bit of that if you're enjoying it.

But I think it's really important to enjoy your own party. And you can do that by pretending someone else is hosting. Matilda, you host a lot of dinner parties. Yeah. Do you feel under pressure? Do you enjoy your own dinner parties? Definitely. I think it really depends on who you're having over. And I think I love Philippa's advice there. Definitely maybe this Christmas, pretending that, you know, it's not Christmas almost and there is just another dinner party in that you can do this and you have done this this year. But definitely, I think you feel the stress. I think, you know, whether it's you're worrying that people are going to get along

or if there's kind of going to be a family feud when people have had one glass too many or you burn the turkey there's so many things to think about but um i think we as women we also do this partly by choice you know you inherit all those things but you also really see the magic and you see the beauty and what your mom your grandmother has passed on to you and you want to bring that magic to your new family or your new life so i think i'm just remembering that and trying to keep a cool head and um delegating as much as you possibly can to bring everyone in on it and kind of enjoy the process. Now, I've had a look at some of your Instagram post

and your dinner parties look beautiful. They're very elaborate. So first of all, just tell me how much time goes into just the preparation, I guess. Yeah, I think maybe quicker than you would think. I think I have my favourite pieces that I've collected over time that I've reached for again and again and, you know, putting a tablecloth down and plates and things like that and you kind of have those pieces that bring character to your table.

but of course things take time if you're you know I think cooking everyone knows it takes double triple the amount of time that you think it's going to take but maybe the decorating part I think I've got pretty speedy at

so yeah it depends it really depends try to be as quick as possible and to kind of enjoy the process as I said let's talk about Christmas Day hosting which we've kind of touched on a bit because I think that is a whole other level of different stress

so what comes into play psychologically there, Philippa? I think the thing is about Christmas day is just a roast dinner with 120 side dishes. What comes into play is trying to remember them all. I mean, how many people have opened the oven

just at the end of the day? Oh, I never got the bread sauce out. Oh, my God. The timing is a killer, isn't it? The timing can completely undo you. Yeah. But I want to pick up on a word that was used earlier,

which was the magic of Christmas. The magic of Christmas is 95% women's labour. There's no magic about it at all. It's hard work and it's probably an Excel spreadsheet as well. Well, I wanted to ask... I'm sure you do anything at the same time. Surely part of the solution is division of labour here. Dividing it up between your partner, your children, guests coming.

That's just another job to do. And we're perfectionist, aren't we? So if you divide up the labour, you then have another job of super... I mean, I remember as a child, peeling about two buckets of potatoes on Christmas Eve. And, yeah, that certainly taught me a lesson. It's hard. Matilda, how do you do Christmas Day? Do you host? Yeah, this year I'm actually renovating, so my mum and I are cooking together. But I'm very lucky it come from a family. My mum has three sisters, and everyone has always kind of got together.

of course, like Philip has said, you know, if you've got young children, maybe it does take them more time to peel those potatoes than it does yourself and causes more stress. But I think it is amazing how the women can get together. And as, yeah, as you said, create that magic and realise that, yeah, it is the women that kind of bring this all together. But I think schedule, as you said, is a really key thing. You hate to have to do it. But I think that's probably the difference of a normal roast is all those extra things

added in and trying to work out the timings of everything. So that's a key thing, I would say, you know, do build out your schedule according to your cooking timings and everything to make your life easier. I mean, so that's food. But look, there's a lot less control over who gets invited to Christmas Day. And tricky relationships is also, I think, a big part of the stress factor. Philippa, do you have advice for people navigating tricky relationships on Christmas Day? Difficult relatives that you might. I have so much advice.

And my inbox is groaning with people, uh, worrying about people that don't get on and blended families and I've got adult children going, why can't I see both my parents on Christmas Day? Why can't they get along? And so that I've got a lot of advice on my, on my substack about this, but I think the key is you are not responsible for other people's emotional reactions to whatever's going on. You've got enough to do to make sure that your cranberry puree is sieved properly. So don't worry about other people's emotional fallout. They should be looking after themselves. I mean, worry a little bit about the children, but anybody over the age of 12, no, they're got to be

responsible for their own feelings. Can I ask you for some advice about how you deal with rude guests? because I often host a Christmas dinner party every year for friends. And last year, a very good friend of mine turned up with her partner, knowing full that, well, that, you know, there was a full on dinner spread, and her partner turned up with a pizza they'd bought outside and proceeded to eat it in the corner, which I thought was phenomenally rude at the time. But it's very hard if you're a people-pleaser and you're hosting to keep the atmosphere.

I think the thing is with that is we, interpret other people's behaviour as to what it would mean if we did it. So if we turned up to a dinner party with a pizza, we would be being intentionally rude. He might be thinking, oh, she might not be expecting a plus one, so I'll bring my own food. So it's the intention behind it. The other thing is, if someone is very rude, do not take it personally. It's who they are. But most of the time when we think people have been rude they've been unintentionally rude so you know don't take it personally rise above it and um it's not that serious and in 50 years time it really won't matter tricky because i've clearly remembered it for 12 months were they invited this year on it

he was just trying to make sure the food went round and perhaps he's a really picky eater and he only eats pizza some people are like that well talking talking about dinner parties matilda you describe yourself as a dinner party girly. Do you think that's something that's coming back into fashion? Oh, definitely. I think so. Although I think maybe next year might be kind of I think this year people

talk a lot about clean girls and all this kind of all these trends and actually I think it's slightly going back the other way and kind of going into the kind of messy aesthetics and everything. That's people, you know, are so used to seeing all these polished images and everything now that actually like you said kind of bringing everyone together and just having a nice time is also

kind of what people are maybe bringing back to but I think definitely my friends and I love being in our homes and being lucky enough to spend time cooking for each other and it's our real quality time that we love of course going out though it's lots of fun but I think definitely and this is I mean this is peak season for socialising

are you an introvert or an extrovert? I would say I'm an introverted extrovert I think I really I'm not I'm never the loudest person in the room but equally I love having my closest friends and I what I really love is kind of connecting people and I think that's one of my biggest joys at life is kind of seeing my friends now become friends with each other and that's kind of the art of the dinner party isn't it is you know these people meet each

other for the first time and then you see that oh now they're going for coffee or they're going for dinner with each other after you've kind of introduced them and then the next dinner party you host everyone's getting along that little bit little bit better it can be tricky though if you don't want to go to every single invite oh yeah going and turning down Christmas invites without offending people. Philippa, any advice on that? You can only do what you can do. And you don't want to exhaust yourself or start getting cirrhosis of the liver.

I mean, I can't, I'm 68 now. I can't do two nights. I can just about manage two nights in succession. But three nights, no, I've got to have a night off. And the other night, we had two. very smart invites, and yet there was a double bill of Vera on ITV4. I thought, Vera's going to win, I'm afraid. It was calling.

You can only do what you can do. And go to the parties where your favourite people are. That's my advice. And enjoy people. It's about enjoying people. And if you want to set the table, that's lovely. the crackers do the heavy lifting. They can cover the stains on the tablecloth.

It's all going to be fine. It's all about the people. Yeah. Well, that is brilliant. Brilliant top advice from both of you. Thank you so much for coming in. Thank you. I'm wishing you both a very happy festive season.

Yeah, Merry Christmas. Thank you. That was Matilda B and Philippa Perry. Now, the new episode of our podcast, Send in the Spotlight, is out now. it's a festive treat. Actor and parent Kelly Bright tells us about her tussles with the Advent calendar and we share lots of tips

for navigating Christmas with a child who has special needs and disabilities. Here's Katie Goche with an unusual one. Dial down those expectations. It's Christmas dinner on the sofa any time you like. And it's the half-wrapped presents because surprises don't work for every child.

Let's get into the half-wrapped present because I just alluded to it. Yeah, it's a genius idea. isn't it? And it is about thinking what works for your kid. I can half wrap the present because then you can have a peek and see what it is, but you still get the lovely joy of unwrapping the present. Another lovely one I heard.

A kid, for whom the typical Christmas, doesn't work. They do a little walk around the block and there are some little things hidden in bushes. Well, you can join Neula for the rest of that episode of Send in the Spotlight on BBC Sounds. Now, a topic some may find difficult to hear. A group of MPs have published a report saying that access to services for survivors of FGM or female genital mutilation in the UK is a postcode lottery and that they are often not provided

with the appropriate counselling services. FGM is an internationally recognised form of gender-based violence that leaves women and girls with serious and lifelong health impacts. Its numbers are thought to be growing, both here and abroad. Recently, the government announced its decision to stop funding its flagship international FGM prevention programme, raising concerns with campaigners. Well, to discuss this, I'm joined by Christine Jardine, Liberal Democrat MP for Edinburgh West and a member of the Women and Equality Select Committee who are behind that report I just mentioned. And Semmer Gournell, who is the CEO of the Revengers, a UK-based charity committed to ending FGM and a government advisor on violence against women. and girls. A very warm welcome to you both. Christine, I want to start with you because I want

to start in the UK. You refer to services that survivors are able to access here as a postcode lottery. Why is that still the case? One of the things we found in our inquiry was that the latest data that the government has is from 10 years ago and that, you know, they haven't kept up to date and it's, you know, that's a significant oversight when the data that you have on a serious issue like this is 10 years out of date. FGM has a huge impact on survivors, on their experiences, it's emotional and physical, and the lack of data has meant that the funding, which has been reduced and we need it returned to at least the two million pounds it was before, has been responsible for creating this postcode lottery because

the data's, you know, a decade old, the spending has been reduced, but we know from other research that's been done and other work abroad that more women across the world, including in this country, are vulnerable. And it's not just in this country, we have to know what is going on because there is a fear that women are being taken abroad, girls are being taken abroad, to have this horrendous abuse. So we need to make sure that we know the scale of the problem in this country, that we are funding it properly,

and that we're providing access to women who need support and who need help. And you mentioned that data being a decade old. So that is the estimation, isn't it, that 137,000 women and girls are living with FGM in the UK. But those are figures that are 10 years old. How confident can we be about those numbers now then? It's the problem that we can't really be confident about it. We know that there is a serious problem. But we know that we don't have the up-to-date data.

And that's a significant, as I said, significant oversight by the government. And we concluded that, you know, adding the data gap, you know, letting it go any further would undermine the government, the local authorities and the healthcare providers, ability to help women. We saw the government's violence against women and girls' strategy. And part of that has to be tackling FGM. But how are they going to tackle it? We want women to use women's health hubs,

other relevant parts of contacts, such as sexual health services, sexual assault, referral centres, but to raise awareness among survivors of the potential consequences of FGM to get them to use these services. But if we don't know where they are, we don't know the scale of the problem, and when we don't know how to reach them, how are we going to do that? And it seriously undermines the government's own strategy.

Well, Semah, I want to bring you in here because it's worth saying that FGM has been illegal in the UK since 1985. Yet the Women in Equality's report, which Christine has just mentioned, indicates that FGM is still taking place in the UK and that UK citizens or residents, so these are British girls, British women, are being taken. a board to be subjected to this form of gender-based violence? Well, we've only had three successful convictions, by the way, and I have to agree with Christine, and thank you so much, Christine, for your work as well. We've fed in some information to this report, and the data poverty isn't a unique problem to the UK. We released a global

report and saw that data poverty is a massive issue, and it does undermine the government's effort. In the UK alone, we believe it could be as high as 1 million women and girls living with FGM. So that's just the UK estimation we have. It doesn't match the 137,000 estimate that, you know, obviously there is now the information that is online. And that's a big difference. It's a disproportionate approach that we have to FGM.

What support do you think is needed in this country? Well, in this country, a prevalence study where we actually ask the question to every single, woman. We have a campaign called One Question campaign. It needs to be treated like breast cancer or smear test. It's a woman's health issue. Every woman needs to be asked this question so we can figure out. So we see that in the plan actually, which we welcome very much. We also need to see reconstructive surgery in the UK. We need to see specialist trauma, specialist mental health care for women and girls. When we see these changes, I mean, they are in the plan, but if it becomes

a reality. Actually, that will be game changer for survivors. It will improve their quality of life massively. And, you know, obviously the government's announced the ending of this funding for the international FGM prevention program. Christine, I just wondered if you could talk to us about the impact that

this program did have. It's been a massively significant program. It meant that the UK, which is a signatory to the United Nations Sustainable Development Program, that this part of. We collaborated with governments in 17 countries as well as sort of grassroots activists

in Kenya, Senegal, Somalia and Ethiopia. And it made, you know, tangible pieces of progress like legislation which criminalised FGM in Sudan, for example, a national anti-FGM policy in Somaliland. And significantly, it managed to defeat an attempt to overturn the ban on FGN in the Gambia. Now, all of these things are significant, tangible pieces of process, progress to beg your pardon, which the programme was able to make. And ending it sort of, it undermines that. It raises the threat again in all of these countries and in this country. When it feeds back. Women and girls being subjected to female genital mutilation. And it's, I mean, there's

four million women and girls across the world that we reckon are at risk. And it would undermine our obligation to support them and the signatories to the UN Sustainable Development Goals, which I mentioned earlier. Well, it feeds back, as you say, if FGM is being prevented abroad, it increases the safety for women and girls here. And the fact that your report says evidence indicates that FGM is taking place in the UK and that UK citizens or residents are being taken aboard. Can you just tell us a little bit more about that evidence? Well, the evidence we heard is that if the countries abroad are not banning or FGM, then girls in this country can be taking abroad to undergo FGM. It also means that women who come here in the future may have been subjected to it,

and that raises other problems, other issues. And we need to get the government to commit to dedicated funding beyond 2026 to ensure that we continue to battle this abroad because it does and as you mentioned make not just women abroad but women in this country who perhaps have connections abroad whose families have maybe migrated here in the past or you know who are subjected to this form of violent abuse which has horrendous emotional and physical impacts on them and what we really need is more you know training it must be it should be mandatory we believe for midwives and other health care professionals in this country

to know how to treat survivors appropriately, sensitively, and women in this country need to be informed of the right to have an interpreter in health situations who is appropriately trained. And I think we need to look more at how we can, you know, raise awareness in this country of the problem and link that up with more spending abroad because the reduction in international development aid

has had a significant effect on this and other problems and we are going to see the impact in this country of further instances and it is horrific of female genital mutilation if we take our eye off the issue and we allow our role in tackling it internationally to be undermined because it's not just a problem abroad. It's a problem which is in this country as well, massive

as Cith has been saying, and the two are intrinsically linked. You cannot tackle one without tackling the other. Well, I just want to read a statement from the Foreign Commonwealth Development Office, because they have said that this programme was always due to end in

2026, as was made clear when it was originally awarded the funding, but that lessons they have learnt from the programme will be incorporated into future work in this area, funding for which will be set out in the coming months. And they also say that the government made clear in this week's strategy on violence against women and girls that we are determined to tackle the scourge of female genital mutilation

and other coercive practices, both in the UK and around the world. And that remains our commitment. Sema, I just want to get your response to that. Is that in line with the support that you would like to see in place? The girl generation is a highly effective programme. They're one of our partners. So we have seen as a partner, NGO, the impact of this work. So giving something to women and girls and taking it back is obviously not a great look for the UK government.

But what we would like to see since they've said that is the plan that they released is actually great from an NGO perspective. Again, we help them fed information, work with number of ministers. If that becomes a reality, that means not only the girl generation needs to be funded, but we need to fund global and home programs. And we also need to play a role as the UK government to convene other governments. We released a report, for example, that says if we globally, and this is not just the UK government,

make an initial investment of £3.9 billion to end FGM. Following eradication, you will gain back to the global economy £40 billion. pounds. So it's not actually aid we are talking about. It's never a bad idea to invest in women. And there's never a bad time to invest in women and girls. Obviously, we need to make this investment. And since the UK is in a great position, and we were one of the biggest funders of this issue in the past. So I don't think that should be taken back now. There's a momentum. A girl child today is less likely to be subjected to FGM because of all these investments that

we've made in the past, why take it back now? I think this could be an opportunity. We could spin it around. There's this wonderful report. There's our report, the economic report. There's so much evidence and we're an evidence-based country. Why not make this investment so that our world that we all live in and inhabit can be a wonderful space for all women and girls, but also for men too? We'll have to leave it there, but I just wanted to say thank you very much for coming in. Semmer Gournell and Christine Jardine. And I do want to say that if you have been affected by any of the things that you have heard in the programme today, please do go to the BBC Action Line website where you will see links to support. 848444 is the number to text. Do keep your

opinions and thoughts about anything you hear on the programme coming in. Now I want to ask you, who comes to mind when you think of the most famous explorers, Christopher Columbus, Ernest Shackleton, James Cook, any, any women at all, any? Well, one explorer is on a mission to change this. Elise Wortley has taken it upon herself to walk in the footsteps of the women who came before her, not just in retracing their route, but also by wearing the exact outfits they would have worn at the time. So Elise joined Nula here in the studio, dressed in 19th century hiking gear, bonnet and all last year. And Nula started by asking Elise to describe exactly what she was wearing

for you. I'm in an outfit that the first women who climbed Mont Blanc wore in 1838. So I'm in a massive bonnet. I'm in a woolen dress and woolen trousers. And I've even gone as far today as my Victorian undergarment. So it's kind of lacy, white cotton. Yeah. I'm in those and a nice belt. And it's super heavy and it's super hot. It's plaid, I should say. Red, green and yellow. I mean, some of it not unlike Vivian Westwood perhaps

but the bonnet is quite something because it has a fur rim around your head and then the bonnet propped on top of it when you explore you wear outfits

like the one you're wearing right now yes I wear what the women had back in the day and specific women yes let us talk about one of the specific women

yeah so a lot of women explorers and adventurers back in the day they were never given the credit that the men were they were never given sort of the book deals or the press coverage so a lot of them sort of got brushed under the carpet and so what I do is I kind of find their stories dig them out of history and recreate them and I wear what they had at the time because I'd never really understand what they went through if I was in sort of modern day clothing how did you come to this point so I read a book by a woman called Alexandra David Neal and And I was 16 when I found this book, and it was called My Journey to Lhasa.

And in 1910, she went off on this 14-year journey all through Asia just to find out the secrets of Buddhism. Because obviously, they didn't have internet. They didn't have anything like that back then. And it's this really incredible story. She was the first Western woman to meet the Dalai Lama. She learnt Tibetan. She would sleep on freezing mountain passes. She had such an epic story.

And I was like, hang on, like, why have I not been taught about her at school? Why have I not heard of this book? So I found that book and then I started researching and now I have a list of like 150 women from history, some more famous than others, but some that were really kind of ignored and did these amazing things. You mentioned the name, Henriette. This is Donville. Yes. Who was she and why does she inspire you? It's her outfit you're working today, so to speak. So she was incredible. So this is 1838. So this is a time when women just didn't go into the mountains.

They didn't do things like this. and she was the first woman to climb Montblanc unaided. So there was actually a woman called Marie Paradie, who 30 years earlier went up, but she actually got carried to the summit. So Henriette thought, I'm going to be the first woman to do it, walking the whole way on my own.

So she created this outfit, which is actually Scottish wool, that she kind of made it all. It does look very heavy. Yeah, super heavy. And then she obviously put trousers on, which for women then was really, you know, women didn't wear trousers.

So to actually feel. step out in this outfit and go and climb this mountain is quite an incredible thing to do and I was just really drawn to that sort of bravery of. So you decided you would trek in that outfit. Where did you go exactly? Yeah. So we went to Chamonie and we tried to do Mont Blanc. I say try because we didn't quite get to the summit because there was a storm. But I've got the hobnail boots on and everything, which actually on rocks are fine, but on this modern shiny floor, not fine. Not good. So yes, we went and we attempted to climb Mont Blanc. But are you, I mean, I'm just thinking with that world, like, are you freezing or are you sweating? Are you uncomfortable? Yeah, so it's, it's hot, really hot. But then

obviously when it's snowier and you get higher up in the mountains, it kind of works really well, actually. It's kind of a little bit waterproof, warm. I mean, it's the heaviness that it's not like your cortex. You've obviously a coat that you put on over it. Yes, and there's a big coat that I had as well. So yeah, it's hard. It's hard going. And the bonnet? very annoying actually when climbing up because there's proper sort of climbing involved and it hits everything I mean earlier I was trying to put my thing on over my head

and I couldn't my sort of cape and I couldn't even get my head round the bonnet to put that on so yeah it hits rocks and you have to sort of move your head round a lot and yeah I'd say the bonnet's probably the most difficult item I'm just wondering you know I mean particularly sports performance clothing

has come on in leaps and bounds over the last decades what must they think when they're in their super waterproof whatever gear and they come by you I know what do people say

what did they do the mountaineering world it's still a big sort of man's world as well so we were the only women in this hut going up Mont Blanc and it was just full of guys

in their you know exchanging gears their kind of waterproof trousers big big things and actually it's funny because people look and they go

you're going up up in that. I'm like, yeah, yeah, that's what people used to have to do. And the women would, yeah, not only were they sort of facing everything else, but they also had the clothing issues. You must even have more respect for those women. Yeah, and that's why I do it in the old stuff, because I'd never fully understand, you know, what they went through, everything else they were kind of battling against, plus the clothing. That's why I do it. That was Elise Wortley there speaking to Newlett. Now, I just want to read some of the the messages that have been coming in.

Alistair says, I love to please people through my cooking, but I'm no people pleaser. I do all the prep and all the cooking. Timing is key and a challenge, but cooking Christmas dinner is something I love. My partner will stress, but I will not. What a great counterbalance. Sharon also says a shout out to the many men who do the cooking. My son cooks the meal every year for nine to ten people. He never gets stressed and all is perfectly served.

All at the same time as if by magic. He did train as a chef, so that helps. But I'm sure that there are plenty of men who roll up their sleeves. Yes, that is true. I know a few myself. Karen says, after 50 years of pretty well solo Christmas dinner, indeed Christmas holiday food preparation, catering, decoration, shopping, everything, my grown-up daughter said,

this is the best Christmas dinner I've ever had. The one time my husband did the dinner, oh dear. Needless to say, I have decided to retire from Christmas dinner and leave it to the others. A well-deserved rest, I feel. Exactly. Just put your feet up, have lots of chocolate. And do what Philippa said.

Just enjoy the day, as if you were a guest. And another listener has said, this year we are going completely plant-based for our Christmas lunch. It's been fun experimenting with new recipes and keeps everybody happy. P.S., my husband also cooks the lunch. A lot of shout-out to the men doing the work. It's great to see. Keep those messages coming in.

The text number is, again, 848444. Now, I did ask you earlier in the programme, did you hit the High Street Christmas shopping at the weekend? Super Saturday, as it's been coined, is one of the busiest days of the year for shops. Stressful for Christmas shoppers, but what about retail workers? Well, women account for 66% of jobs in retail

and a recent study by the Retail Trust found three quarters have experienced abuse this year with 43% wanting to quit their jobs as a result. Well, according to data analysis out in the telegram, after date, shoplifting has also soared by her fifth over the past year in England and Wales. Earlier, I spoke to retail worker Stephanie Michelle before she went to work. And I started by asking her what it's like while she's working over the festive period. I am going to be working the next few days up to Christmas Eve.

And how are you feeling about it? Slightly optimistic. I work in an art gallery now and a framers, so the majority of our work is done for the next few days. it's just last minute requests and things like that. But I have worked in a bookshop previously and at this time of year it can be pretty horrific. Well, I was going to ask, because you've been working in retail for eight years now.

Yes. Is Christmas the worst time for bad behaviour? Yes, absolutely. You would be amazed at some of the things that people think are appropriate to do in shops at this time of year. Can you give me some examples? I once got cornered in the staff toilets by a lady who said that she was desperate for the loo and couldn't possibly get to the toilet in the shopping centre next door.

There were big signs everywhere saying do not go in. I asked her kindly to leave. She refused and then backed me up against the sink, raised her fist to me, threatened to thomp me, told me she was going to put in a complaint about me to my manager as well. And, yeah, swore at me, got really far into my face. going to thump you. Stop asking me to do this. Yes, it was very scary, to be honest. I'm so sorry. How did you react? Was this witness by other people? No, I was on my own. So this was during one of the pandemic years. So we had a very skeletal

staff on. I was on my own on the top floor of the shop and everyone else is on the bottom floor of the shop. So I was quite panicked and quite scared. I managed to get past her eventually because she was blocking the exit to the toilet as well. So I managed to get past her and then ran downstairs to my manager and asked them what to do. And this woman came down behind me, said none of that had happened. She was just really desperate to use the toilet and I'd been horrendously rude to her. And then she went to use the toilet in the shopping centre next door, came back, complained to my manager about my behaviour and my attitude. And this, This was also in a bookshop, wasn't it?

Yes. So people might think bookshops are very civilised, calm, genteel spaces. But actually you witnessed some horrific behaviour, particularly around Christmas there too. Yes. People think that working in a bookshop is really nice and relaxed and kind of a nice atmosphere and almost hush like a library. But it's not. It's very much a shop.

And you would be amazed, like I said, I keep saying this, but you'd be amazed at the behaviour of people. They become so entitled and so rude and will swear at you, will threaten violence, will destroy displays and knock things over if they're in a bad mood. It's just ridiculous. How do you deal with that?

See, this is what makes it quite difficult because as an employee, you are generally the face of the company that you're working for. So you can't respond in kind, and it is quite difficult sometimes because you do go into this almost fight or flight response because someone is being aggressive towards you but you can't do that you have to stay very calm very pleasant you can be firm but you can't respond in kind and if someone has stepped into your

space and they're trying to threaten with violence that's quite difficult but you have to constantly almost remember that this is your job you are the face of this company if you do anything and the customer complains it's the reputation of the company that you work for do you have a particular strategy then to de-escalate or get people to back off just kill them with kindness i always just try and just try and be as kind as possible and try and explain and try and remind the person that i am a person to i'm not just this robotic thing that's there to get them this book or to do something for them. I am actually a person. And sometimes if you can just try and get them to realize that, you know, you are a person. It sounds

stupid. It sounds really stupid when you're explaining it. But if you just get them to understand that you're a person and almost get a rapport going with them, sometimes it's really, really difficult if they're in that level of aggression. It's really interesting. It's really interesting. that you say your strategy is to get is to remind them that you are a person because that that instant is one moment for someone who might be rude to you or ignore you or be quite abrupt but I'm guessing you you have to carry that with you for the rest of the day and you're still at work you've still got a job to do yes that's that's the other thing is that you're expected just carry on like normal sometimes you can be you can be shaking because of

the adrenaline and the fear that's just gone through you but you have to smile and so of the next customer and act like nothing has happened and it's really difficult and sometimes it can be really upsetting. Well, Chris Brooke Carter is Chief Executive of the Retail Trust and joins me now. Chris, welcome to Women's Hour. Good morning, thank you. Is what Stephanie says typical of the workers that you hear from? Sadly, yes, it's a story that's all too familiar to us. As you mentioned earlier, about 77% of shop workers have experienced abused in the last year. And before, 43% are saying that's almost happening every single week. And it's getting so bad that a large proportion of those store workers now fear going into work, feel anxious about going to work,

and they're actually considering quitting their jobs entirely. And we know that women make up the majority of retail workers. Do you think women get it worse than men? I think anecdotally what we hear when people call into our helplines or we go out visiting people in stores is that aggressive customers often target the more vulnerable looking members of staff. So quite often that can be young people in the store, those people who are, you know, only just join the workforce or indeed quite often women as well. Yes. So I think undoubtedly we do hear that those people that look more vulnerable are more likely

to be confronted by aggressive shoppers. Why do you think things have got worse for retail workers? Because just speaking to Stephanie earlier and from people I know, it seems that rudeness has been normalized in a way that it wasn't before. I think that's it. And actually the campaign that we're running at the moment to try and get people to remember that the people in store are human beings, that they're not just faceless people that representing brands

and that everyday kindness really, really counts, is trying to counter this normalisation of this rudeness and this abuse that we've seen creepy into the shopping experience. There's a whole host of reasons, I think, why we're seeing that from the more complex nature of the shopping, experience now, whether it's returns in store, whether it's technology that customers are having to interact with, there are issues around that came about due to COVID, where we saw more friction points in the shopping journey, where I think it became normalized over that time. And I think,

you know, a lot of us have very, very high expectations of our shopping journey now due to things like Amazon and online shopping, where we're expecting everything all the time exactly when we want it. And obviously, these are unrealistic expectations of a lot of shops. and a lot of stores. And the campaign is just trying to call on people to remember that these are human beings, that everyday kindness, every smile, every thank you, really counts to making a happier shopping environment for everybody concerned, actually. Well, I wanted to pick up on one of the things you said just then, because you said

technology, and there is a prodigious use now of self-service machines. How do you think that's affected the relationship between customers and retail workers? And also just, you know, do you think people really value the service, receive in store? Or has that just gone out of the window? Have they forgotten about that? So I think that last point is really important. People, I think, really underestimate the value of the retail sector, not just to British society, but in terms of its economic contribution, but actually what it does to society and whole, in terms of it being the largest employer of women outside of the public sector, it being the largest employer of young people outside of the

public sector, the fact that it knits our high streets together. And it is a service industry, providing an invaluable service and I think that is forgotten too often both by government but by customers and shoppers alike. Technology's relationship is really complex in many ways it's sped up and made shopping more convenient but obviously it has introduced potential more friction points and we all have experienced I'm sure that moment of frustration when we're trying to check out an electronic till and it's not working and there aren't quite enough staff in store to rush over and deal with the flashing red light immediately. But I think what we're trying to say is that we've got to remember it is not the store staff's fault when those things happen. They are

trying to do their best. Most people get into retail because they love dealing with people. They love serving people. They love those customer interactions. And they are genuinely trying to do their very best in that moment. But as your caller earlier said, across Christmas, there is very, very high footfall. Everyone's a little bit more stressed. But now is the time, I think, to just take a step back, deep breath. Remember that every thank you and every smile counts in making, can make the difference for that person who's in store that day.

And that is great advice for us to end on. Thank you so much for joining us just now. That was Chris Brooke Carter. And just a bit earlier we heard from Stephanie Michelle, who was about to start her Christmas shift working in an art gallery shop. Join me again for Women's Hour tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

Join us again next time. This is Dr Chris and Doctors Aren't and we are dropping in to let you know about our new BBC Radio 4 podcast. In WhatsApp Docs, we are going to be diving into the messy, complicated world of health and well-being because it can be confusing, can't it, Zan't it, Zan? That's right, Chris, the massive information out there can be contradictory, it can be overwhelming, and Chris and I get confused too. That's right, we get seduced by the marketing, the hype, the trends,

so we want to be your guides through it. And I think it's fair to say, Zand, we are going to be getting personal. We're absolutely going to be getting personal, Chris. What I want to do is bring in my own health dilemmas in the hope that we can help you with yours. Listen and subscribe to What's Up Docs on BBC Sounds.