Woman's Hour - 23/09/2026

Episode Date: September 23, 2026

Women's voices and women's lives - topical conversations to inform, challenge and inspire.

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from live streaming the BBC News Channel and acclaimed documentaries to in-depth analysis and features. Visit BBC.com forward slash subscribe to find out more. Hello, this is Newell O'Goverin, and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the program. Well, starting us off, she's Hollywood royalty. She's Welsh royalty.

We have Catherine Zeta Jones in studio. Kill Jackie is her new revenge thriller series, and the woman from Mumbles is finally playing a character with a Welsh accent. Also, as you'll know by now, Swan's Song is the book by Earl Spencer about his sister Diana, the Princess of Wales. Today on Woman's Hour, we're asking whether Earl Spencer's account helps us better understand Diana, the woman who is also a global icon.

And a call-out for those with tight curls or afro hair. It can be hard to find someone to cut and style textured hair. So we're going to hear one woman's story and also what she'd like to see change in the hairdressing industry. and we'd also like your experience of going to get your textured hair done to get in touch. You can text the program, the number is 84844 on social media where at BBC Women's Hour, or you can email us through our website. For a WhatsApp message or a voice note, the number is 0300-100-100444.

And on most smart speakers, you can say, Alexa Ask BBC Sounds to send a comment. Now, did you see this this morning? Cocker, Pulp Frontman, says it is a surprise for books written by men ended up on the short list of the Booker Prize. It is majority men making up four out of the six on the short list. We're going to have Gabby Wood, Chief Executive of the Booker Prize Foundation, to tell us more. That is all coming up. But let me begin with our superstar, Catherine Zita Jones.

Now, she has won an Academy Award, a BAFTA, a Tony, two-suitary. Screen Actor Guild Awards. It's quite the career. She's been acting for more than 40 years. Yes, she did start very, very young. From the West End to the Darling Buds of May, Chicago, Wednesday, and of course some of Hollywood's biggest films as well.

Well, now she's taking the lead in a new action thriller, Kill Jackie, playing a glamorous art dealer whose dangerous past comes back to haunt her. And for the first time on a major screen role, she's doing it with her Welsh. accent. Let us listen to a little of Catherine as Jackie, finding out from one of her bodyguards that the people she hoped would protect her are preparing to do the opposite.

Jackie? Yeah. So what do they say? You are next contracts. Brilliant. But I'll have to discuss some terms first. No, no, no. I don't say possible employer. You are the target. Me. Yes. This target. Sorry, Miss Price, was not aware. Are you going to try and kill me now? I know start, yes. It's literally not my job.

My contract starts midnight. How reassuring. Cidre, Babette, Knooshton, playing Karenina and Catherine Cita Jones as Jackie in Prime Videos. Kill Jackie. Great to have you with us. Welcome to the Woman's Hour Studio. I'm very happy to be here.

Now, it has taken, as I've alluded to, decades for you to play a character using your own Welsh accent. I believe you requested it for this production. I did. Yeah, I was an exact producer on the show as well. And so I was five years getting this made into production and eventually the scripts were coming in. And so I said to my producers, look, this was written, the book was written for, it's a man central character. set in America. We weren't shooting in America,

so I said, right, I want to play a Welsh. And it was such a liberating thing for me as an actor because it allowed me to not have that half of my brain, figuring out what sounds I'm having to make or wherever I slip up and it doesn't sound true American or true Spanish or Scottish, whatever I was doing. So, yeah, and also character-wise,

I could find so much, like humour in the nuances of her because she comes from the kind of the wrong side of the track in Wales. I was at the posh side. Just to reiterate that my mother would be very angry. I was from the posh side. But anyway, Jackie was not.

And she lives a kind of dubious, kind of dysfunctional life. But it was wonderful. And I can't believe, I actually am very happy that so many people have picked up on that. Because, you know, for years, It was like, oh, she's become so Americanized. I'm married to American. I got two American kids.

If I said to them, do you have any aluminium foil for my chicken? They don't understand me. When my husband first met me, I was speaking to my mother on the phone. And he turned after. He said, when you speak the Welsh language, it sounds so beautiful. I said, I was speaking English. You just don't, you don't actually hear me speak like that. But it is, it does draw you in.

so much the character. I loved it. And I've watched, I've been lucky enough to catch a couple of sneak episodes before everyone else. It is out on October 2nd. Jackie is glamorous. She's formidable. She's very much in control. And then I was thinking back on your career. And I was thinking of entrapment, which was 1999, the late Sean Connery. He was the lead billing in that particular film. He was a master art thief. And I was like, you know what this is? Maybe this is progress in the sense of you are the lead protagonist. You are the person that is calling the shots. I'm just wondering how you see it. Yes, I think it sounds a bit of a cliche, but when I read the book and they were deciding to change the central character from a man

to a woman, there's something empowering because she's living in a man's world and it sounds like a cliche, but she's able to put herself out in front more. Physically, there's a lot of action in the show. So much action. And also for me, emotionally, You know, it's a strip away the preconception of, yes, she's glamorous to start, but then you see me as Jackie very kind of, you know, disconstructed and down and dirty, you know. And it's just to let all those preconceptions are what the female star should be. Warts and all in some of the episode, which was lovely again to play. But I've just worked with some of the great male actors of our time.

And I think I'm married to one of them as well, although. I've only done one movie with him. It is Michael Douglas, of any way. It doesn't know. I've always had such great working relationship with my male co-stars. And they never felt in a way uncomfortable. I've always been part of the team. Collaborating with such as force like Sean Conry,

who became like a mentor to me. So I think it's nice for me more than anything to have. have a character that I'm in, I can play, I can have a real arc, you know. She's such a central character all the way through. And usually in our industries, those are played by men. Indeed. And I want to get to some of the stats on that, which just have been catching my eye over the past week. There was one, for example, five of the six women who won acting Emmys this year were over 50, demonstrating how viewers want to watch their stories. Despite this, another figure, only 14% of major TV roles are for women over 40.

How do you see that? I think it's very true. It's a juxtaposition of, you know, yes, yes, yes. You know, there is desire to feel, to see and to learn about characters and enjoy the characters who are not 23-year-olds, that they are mature women with a story to tell and a history. And then we cheer for that. And then, yes, it's very illimid. There's only a few of them to go around, you know.

And the ones that are going around are really quite good. So it's, you know, like a big fish in a small pond or a small fish in a big pond. And so I do think there's been progress. I do. I cheer that, you know, that those Emmy wins. And then we make more progress on the amount of work that's written for women that are, say, more mature. And as you mentioned, being part of this production, I'm sure, also helps accelerate that. Let's go back.

You talk about history. I want to go back a little bit because when I was reading, I was like, oh, really? Catherine Zeta Jones. The Zeta. Tell us about it. Zita, well, it's hyphenated it, but it's my middle name. My Irish grandma was Kathleen, so that Catherine came from her. And my father's mother was Zita.

And she was named Zita because my great-grandfather worked in the docks. And he worked on ships from, you know, that he was a woodworker, a craftsman. And so a ship he worked on was called the Zeta. And then years later, they gentrified the Swansea Docks. And instilled in the brick was Zeta. And that's where the boat used to dock. How lovely. Yeah.

It was really nice to have that history. but everyone calls me in the States Zeta Zibra Zeta but it is actually pronounced Zeta I'm expecting people

to have start using a few maybe little Welsh sayings or twangs after Kiljaki gets its premiere there as well you know you mentioned that you were in the posh side

of Mumbles but I read that your parents won in Bingo is this true and moved to Mumbulls is this true? It's kind of not really true you know my father

Well, my mother said it's not true. My father used to play the bingo and used to better the horses a lot. But he must have come into a windfall of somehow, a legal windfall, I have to say, that enabled him to not just, when a company, my father was in the confectionery business, and then he was able to buy out somebody so he could take over the company when I was about seven, I think, or something like that. So there was definitely a windfall. I don't think it was house.

I don't know any bingo in Swansea that dishes out that kind of money. That kind of money. So I want to stay with the childhood because also Elizabeth Taylor, you were quite fascinated with as a child. And you actually got to meet her? I did. Well, for me, coming from Wales and wanting to be, an actress.

Movies were never really on my radar. It was more theatre actors, but who, if you thought of an actress, it was Elizabeth Taylor. My mother had the magazines. And she married not once but twice, our great Richard Burton, who was brought up the street.

So more than iconic, from where I came from. And so my mother has memories of lining the streets to Pontry Devon when Richard bought Elizabeth, Elizabeth. And then I was in Annie, the musical when I was nine, ten. And after the show finished, I was the last cast before it's finished at the Victoria Palace.

Little Foxes came in with starring Elizabeth Taylor. And so I knew the stage door people. So for a matinee performance, I was in London to see another show. And I bought her some daffodils, our national flower. And I stood outside. And I remember saying to her, She said, oh, thank you, honey. And I said, I'm from Wales.

She went, oh, my gosh. And then I said, she had sunglasses on. I said, can you take off your glasses so I can see your violet eyes? And she said, oh, it's way too early in the morning for that, sweetheart. And it was about three in the afternoon. I kept, well, all right, I met her. How wonderful. I just love this idea of this little girl meeting a superstar who then becomes a superstar herself.

And then many years later, she wanted to. and meet me and she was of ill health. A makeup artist who I love and known for years as bit was her makeup artist for years and I don't know whether she, it was Elizabeth herself who wanted to meet me or

this lady had made a connection and I was in London invited for brunch at her house and unfortunately she had to cancel but the very idea that Elizabeth Taylor wanted to have a cup of tea and some butter toast with me was...

You can't make this stuff up. It was wonderful. I love it. Let's talk a little bit about some of the other roles. The Adams family spin-off Wednesday. You're playing on-screen mother

Jenny Ortega is Wednesday. I've read that you said you see some of your own parenting style in Morticia. Well, I don't have a... Our relationship from Wednesday to Morticia is a little

contentious, which I don't have, you know, I don't have that. But I think the way the parenting is that I always gave, we were outcasts, right? The show is all based on the beauty of outcasts. Yes. But, you know, characters that were written for a cartoon, a very long time ago, had very modern values in that being different is, it should be applauded, not try to be quashed. and letting your children be who they want to be and letting them find their way, having a few guardrails,

but not as many as maybe a strict upbringing would have. And so I think I relate to that with my children. They had boundaries, but they certainly had a free reign to explore themselves and educate. Yeah, but I wouldn't say that I'm feeding my kids' possum, raccoon, roadkill. In a big cauldron.

In a big cauldron. I don't do witchy stuff with them, no. I do have to ask them because you made headlines,

was it a few weeks ago, perhaps now, when you talked about the term nepo baby, your children are Dylan and Karis, they're pursuing

careers in entertainment, but you call the term nepo baby, your nepotism baby to give it its full title, horrific. Why horrific?

Well, because apropos to what I just said, you know, you have children, they don't, they're not, born to be or you know they didn't ask for celebradum they just came into the world and I just speak from my own experience with my children they've dealt with it profoundly well with the intense attention

thrown on them and they carve their way in life and if it was any other industry whether it be finance or business usually people go in or if you're a lawyer oh my son is a lawyer or I know all my grown-up surgeon doctor friends have kids going into that industry and they don't get they don't get labeled but I think more importantly I'm married to the ultimate nepo baby my husband was the son of kirk douglas my son was the son of sparticus you know and he's done pretty good on his own you know and so I think it's unfortunate that with an intense scrutiny young people have not just my kids or celebrity kids just generally they get slaughtered by

AI images of perfection of this and that they don't need another tag you know I think it's very unfortunate I suppose people use that tag because they would feel that children of celebrities have advantages that other actors don't have quite opposite quite opposite

first of all they have so much to prove that oh like you said It's in your genes. It's in your blood. It's like, no, actually, I have a true passion and love of the craft. They don't, my kids have a zero, zero desire for celebrity or fame. I mean, they've been brought up with that. It's the craft.

It's the craft. And people lose sight of what we do. We're not just clothes horse who's walking down the street, getting photographed. It all stems from a real passion. and a commitment and a craft that we make sacrifices for in our lives to be better and do something that we'd love to do. And you're doing Kill Jackie at the moment, of course, based on the book. You're mentioned by Nick Harkaway.

Yeah. Who is the son of John Le Carre as we talk about. Yes. Family. Worked under a sudden name. It's like, yeah. Ooh, another Nepo to John McCa. Let me move on.

You've mentioned your husband a number of times. And I believe I need to wish you an early happy birthday. You have the same birthday as your husband? Yeah, we do. Just in a couple of days. Happy birthday. I know. Libra.

I know. Libra. Balance. Justice. Well, the mediator. Yeah. Yeah. I'm also a Libra.

Well, one of us. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. But, you know, I was thinking, so much was made at the time when you were with Michael Douglas of an age difference. Do you think that conversation has changed? I think it's.

it's flipped the other way around, you know, for men don't really get answered that question. But for me, it was never a numbers game, you know. It was never, I was very successful and doing well in my own right. We met, we fell in love, it made sense. I knew how old he was and, you know, I wasn't 19 years old. I was 16 years old. And so, yeah, so really, it didn't really make a lot of difference for us. And you are married more than 25 years at this point as well. I want to come back to mumbles, really, and to voices and accents. I was thinking Joanna Page also from mumble. It's incredible.

She's often talked about that push-pull about using the Welch accent as well, where, of course, she did eventually in Gavin and Stacey. but you're on Woman's Hour. We are 80 this year. I know. So the celebrations are starting very soon. And one of the themes of our celebration is using your voice. You have spoken, of course, so beautifully in it during this interview.

We've talked about your Welsh accent. But what would you tell other women about finding their voice and making sure it's heard? Well, physically, just literally finding your voice. There's something about a woman's voice that is nurturing and caring with strength. But I think emotionally finding your voice is the most important thing a woman can have. The ability to say no, yes, to speak out when one needs to speak out. I think that's one of the most important things. to be heard clearly

without having a preconception of let's try and manipulate this because we've been brought up to be nice to people and constantly want people to like us and be a woman and delicate and fragile, whatever, be able to speak your truth, I think.

You strike me as a woman who found her voice quite early. Am I right or wrong? I would say I had the ability to be surrounded by very good strong women in my life and also in my team of people when I went to Hollywood, which is like going to the lion's den in that day. And I had a good, men too. I had very good men who protected me. And my father being the strongest man and wonderful man that I was brought up with. So I felt that I was able to have my voice,

but it does take maturity to be able to truthfully hold your own. Yeah, and you held your own in the Lions Den. It's an interesting way to describe Hollywood. Yeah. We shall leave it there. Such a pleasure to have you in. Kill Jackie launches, yes, I was right, second of October on Prime Video. It is brilliant.

You're going to see Catherine Zita Jones in a way you haven't seen her before. You'll be even more impressed. shall I say as you watch it, it is an absolute hoot, but really compelling to watch as well in all her glory. Catherine Zeta Jones, thank you so much for coming in.

Thanks for having me. Now, I want to move on at this point, 84844 if you want to get in touch with the programme, but I want to move on to Earl Spencer. What Earl Spencer said in his new book has been generating headlines around the world. Nearly 30 years after the death of Diana, Princess of Wales, Swan Song, Diana, my sister,

recounts his life with his sister and the traumatic days following her death. His account of conversations with then Prince Charles in the aftermath of her death attracted particular attention, prompting a strongly worded response from Buckingham Palace. Today on Women's Hour, we're asking whether Earl Spencer's account helps us better understand Diana, the woman who was also a global icon. Earlier, I spoke to Anne Acklevoy, executive editor at Politico and co-host of the politics at Sam and Anne podcast and Justine Picardy, social historian, an author of Fashioning the Crown, a story of power, conflict and couture, an author of the memoir, if the spirit moves you.

Earl Spencer clearly feels he had a duty to tell his sister's story, but I started by asking Anne, does it add to our understanding of Diana and her legacy? I think it does. If you like, Earl Spencer has been the missing piece of the jigsaw. So many other people have had their say about Diane, who frankly had an awful. a lot less to do with her than Earl Spencer had. So one criticism that I think is probably a bit unfair is well, why does he feel he's got a right-to-write a book? He does write history books. He does feel that he is entitled to do that. And of course, he was a close witness to the events and to Diana's

life. I think we can come on to whether some of the things he said in the book are correct, wise, or well-judged where I have a lot more doubts. But I think it is actually rather under- unfair to say that someone who has a story to tell, shouldn't tell it. There would never be a right time, would there, for people who think that this book shouldn't have been written? Yeah, very interesting, and we will get to some of those issues. Justine, let me bring you in here. I know that you don't want to get into the discussions about who said what and who we should believe.

Charles Spencer has, however, said in the book, and I quote, I'm going to tell things how I remember them, lay them down for good, once and for all. He also says and writes, in some ways the aim of this book is to tell the truth about Diana from her brother's perspective, just as I attempted to do when speaking at her funeral. As someone who has written historical books and a memoir yourself, Justine, how important are those first-hand accounts, even if other people may remember things differently? Well, I suppose for myself as a, you know, historian, cultural historian, those first-hand sources are incredibly important. And certainly,

You know, having written about historical subjects myself, I've really always tried to rely on a whole different array of sources, but that could be letters, that could be diaries, but memoirs are very important, and particularly if they're not ghosted memoirs, because as you say, I mean, lots and lots of books have been written about Diana, as they are about significant historical figures. But to read something that is not through either the prism of AI

or the prism through a ghostwriter is powerful. And this is a brother's perspective. And Justine, you sadly have experience of losing a sibling as well. But I'm just wondering from that perspective how you see it. Well, the strange kind of synchronicity is that I was exactly the same age as Diana and my sister Ruth, who was my younger sister, she was two years younger than me, exactly the same age as it happens as Charles Spencer. She died very shortly after Diana's death.

It was the anniversary of her death was yesterday. and I think, you know, there's no hierarchy of mourning, there's no hierarchy of grief. And I'm sure everybody that is listening to this will have experienced grief and loss and at a certain point in their lives, bereavement. And so we all experience it differently. But I think that if you lose a sibling, there is, it's not that it's worse than anybody else, but you do feel as if you've lost almost that sort of the person that understands you best, perhaps, because of everything that you've shared from childhood onwards.

And for me, Ruth was my closest childhood companion and my best friend. And as my closest friend through adulthood, I was losing so much. And I think that because like Diana, she died, we've died too young, she had cancer, she had breast cancer and she died less than a year after diagnosis and left two young twins who had just turned two. So we did have a chance to say goodbye to each other, which somebody like Charles Spencer who loses a sibling in an accident. or anybody that loses somebody very suddenly and doesn't have that opportunity, that makes it even more savage. But I think any death, untimely death,

can still feel like a kind of bomb has gone off in the landscape, the familiar landscape of the family. There's so much in what you say, Justine. I'm so sorry for your loss. And I know particularly at this time of an anniversary, I'm sure it brings back many memories. You're reminding me that many of us expect our sibling relationship to be the longest relationship of our life.

Exactly. And instead, when it's cut short, like a bomb going off, is so illustrative. I'm wondering, as you think about this book and some of the headlines, do you think Earl Spencer is acting? primarily as a brother or as an uncle. He used the term, which I thought was interesting, benign uncle. Yeah, I mean, people do shade their own role in things and in life to their own advantage. And I think bearing in mind that the story Justine has told about how she feels about that long legacy of the loss of her sister,

I do think that is an element in Earl Spencer's thinking. However, I would not be being a rigorous journalist who's written in some ways critically about this book, where I not to say that I think his background, that sense of that complexity of that coming of aristocratic family, which in some ways, I think it comes across in his account, feel themselves superior to the royal family in many ways. He's the ninth third. You know, you've got a continuity there, going back centuries, that he feels he has a claim on history, which is different from and I think is challenging to the palace, King Charles, and Palace Communications. Now, who else has got a bit of a beef with all that at the moment?

Harry and Megan, who have a walk on party in this too. So I think we're seeing also a power struggle play out here. And you can say, people will say, well, that's distasteful, isn't it, over the legacy of Diana. But, you know, Princess Diane in her lifetime was also not averse to power struggles of her own, both with the palace, to leveraging the press in her own interests. So I think this is, you know, I think we can't be entirely sentimental about Earl Spencer's motivations.

I think he said he wants to make some money from the book. Money is always useful. A big state, the country powers are expensive. But I think the bigger driver for him is that he feels it is, it's his to put his stamp on and that he doesn't see that he should be chided by the palace into being quite, And I'm not sure that the palace actually hopefully helped by telling him that grief meant he was misremembering. I think that was an unusually not a smart step because if Justine feels about that bit, if someone said,

well, you know, you can't possibly remember things clearly because you were grieving. I do feel that probably, you know, that raised the, you know, up the ante between what are two rival camps for the legacy of Diana. It has to just be straightforward about that. It's an interesting characterisation of it. Obviously, I don't have Earl Spencer to respond to some of the way you may characterize him. I did read, of course, his thoughts at the top about why he did this book. I will read the statement from the Palace. A spokesperson said, while we do not comment on books as a matter of principle,

His Majesty is mindful that the pain of fraternal grief can cloud reason, affect judgment and colour memory in ways others do not recognize even many years. after such a loss. Is the timing significant in your view, Anne? Oh, I think the timing is significant. I think it's partly L. Spencer is now over 60. He's probably thinking this is a time I want to tell my story. Obviously, he decided to write this before the return of Harry and Megan to the UK.

But it's not just the timing, I think, that is significant. It's the fact that it is aligned. And he has said so in interviews this week with Laura Kuhnsberg. as he's been out about promoting the book that he also sees the treatment of Harry and Megan is in some ways analogous to the treatment. He's also got that tendency to blame the media, albeit with characters who have also courted the media when it suits them. So I do see alignment here.

I think the timing is significant. I think it's also the fact that King Charles is now established on the throne. It is, and this is perhaps the bit that is quite challenging about Earl Spencer's conduct at the time of writing it, what is the weakest link in Charles's biography? It is his relationship with his late wife, Diana and the tragedy of her death. And you can feel how strong that statement is, obviously written with Charles's full approval. And I think they're outraged about the account of his alleged response to his ex-wife's death. But I think it is simply fact that if you look across the life and the many achievements of the king and what he achieves,

now, huge respect he enjoys. I was with him on the great trip to the US. You know, he absolutely rocked the US of A. He's very, very well, well loved and respected abroad, but, you know, there is a difficult bit in his life story, and it is the failure of the marriage to Diana and the tragedy that then unfolded. And I think that is where you would raise the question about the terms in which that is presented by Spencer. And he would simply, as you say, he's not here. But I don't think he even defend himself. I think he would simply say, well, this is the story as I saw it. Interesting.

And I suppose as you talk about part of the legacy of how King Charles did or did not treat Diana as part of it, another part of his legacy, I suppose, could also will be seen of Diana's legacy is her sons. And, you know, their place in the world or their relationship, for example, which also coming to some of the aspects that you raised there, Anne, in relation to the book. Let me come back to you, Justine. I know you did met Charles Spencer just after your book was published about the death of your younger sister.

I'm wondering, however now, nearly three decades on, has what you have heard discussed or read or watching Laura Kunzberg interview with Earl Spencer added anything meaningful? Do you think to our understanding of Diana's legacy? I think what you... I mean, as you say,

we did meet soon after my book was published because of that overlapping experience. And in, you know, that conversation and subsequent conversations, what always came across to me was that very, unifying emotion, wasn't a divided emotion, just talking as, you know, a brother who's lost his sister to a sister who had lost her sister about that very, that experience that many,

many people share. And his book, you know, which I haven't yet read, but I do know it's dedicated to, you know, all siblings who have lost a sibling. And in my conversations with Earl Spencer, it has been very much to do with discussing that pain, sharing that pain. There wasn't any other agenda in our conversations. I'm quite struck, Justine. The dedication was for all those who have lost a sibling in the book Swan Song.

You talk about a bomb crater when, it comes to grief. But Anne, many people have considered this, a grenade, this particular book by Earl Spencer. And I'm just wondering what you think it will do to the legacy of Diana. I think for those who wanted to hear another voice and don't entirely warm to the fact that over the years, the legacy of Diana feels like it's owned by a certain number of people, will certainly say that Earl Spencer had every right to tell this account. Also, if parts of are not congruent with what other people think, that it's still, I think,

Justine referred to it very well at the top of the interview, you know, that this is sort of source material that it's good to have out there. I think where there will be doubts about it is that there is a line here, Earl Spencer. Yes, certainly a brother, certainly someone, had a complex, but also loving relationship with his sister. Does that mean, you know,

that there is a truth claim here that is higher than other peoples? And I think that is the area that it really is, however politely being fought out between the king, his circle of palace and between El Spencer. They simply see the truth differently. Anne Mack Elvoy, executive editor at Politico and co-host of the politics at Samman Andes, and Justine Pickardee, a social historian and author of Fashearing the Crown, a story of power, conflict and culture, and author of the memoir, if the spirit moves you. Thanks so much to both of... them for joining us this morning to speak about that book and legacy. Growing businesses deal with the same problem, too many tools, too much back and forth

and not enough time. Odu helps bring it all together. It's an all-in-one business management platform, fully integrated from sales and accounting to inventory and marketing, so your team can spend less time chasing information and focus on growth. Whether you're in retail, manufacturing or service, Odu gives you one place to manage your business. Visit Odo.com to book a demo. It's O'DOO.com. Welcome to the Haunted Library. Have you come in search of a tale? This podcast invites you to browse the shelves and find stories that will linger long after you've left this place. From Gothic masterpieces to Paupey Penny Dreadfuls, join me, Colin

Morgan with new episodes twice a week. Find the haunted library wherever you get your podcasts. Right, I do want to talk about different books now. The shortlist for the Booker Prize has been announced. And while female writers formed a majority of the 2026 long list, the final selection includes four male and two female authors. At last night's announcement of this short list, the pulp frontman and Booker Prize judge, Jarvis Cocker,

said that it was a surprise that four books written by men ended up on the short list. I'm quoting now because generally speaking, the male written books weren't as good as the ones written by women, unquote. An overarching theme of the chosen novels appears to be masculine, authority and crisis and perhaps discomfort. Well, joining me to chat is Gabby Wood, chief executive of the Booker Prize Foundation. Good morning, Gabby, great to have you with us. Oh, hello, Neela. Thank you for having me. Thanks for joining us after probably somewhat late night. The judges described the selection process for the short list as a tussle, which I quite liked.

Why was this a tussle or a tricky decision, do you think? What did they tell you? Well, I was there, so they didn't have to tell me. One thing I can say is that it was a really, really great long list. And so anyone would have had a hard time reducing that list of 13 to 6. But the other thing is that, you know, Mary Beard is the chair and she likes a good joust. and it was very entertaining. I think, you know, I sit in on the meetings

and actually they get on very, very well and I don't really see it as disagreement so much as sort of showing each other what their experience of the books has been and coming to a kind of new collective understanding of them. That sort of tussled. Okay, now I kind of want to know exactly what's happening in the room.

It sounds intriguing. You know, is it people like standing up and putting their points forward? Was there a book thrown at some point? Oh, that's good. Well, they did talk about this a little bit last night. Patricia Lockwood commented that Jarvis Cocker ate all the grapes and they got into a little bit of a fight. I had to intervene actually at one point. But yes, they line up the books and sometimes they like to tip them over if they're going out or, you know, there's some physicality in it. But really they just sit around a table and chat and they get on very well.

So let us turn. Two books in the short list by female author. They are, May We Feed the King, a debut novel by the British author Rebecca Perry and The Things We Never Say, Elizabeth Strout, at the other end, her 11th novel. Tell us about these women that did make the short list. Oh, thank you. That's a nice question. By the way, I should say it's unusual, actually. I was quite struck by this. It's only the second time in the last 10 years when there have been more men than women on the book a short list.

Rebecca Perry's novel, very beautiful first novel, which is a kind of historical novel wrapped in an idea, about how we see history. So I think it has all the sort of intrigue and comfort, I guess, of historical fiction about a medieval king who doesn't really want to be on the throne. And also all the intellectual, again, challenge of sort of asking ourselves why we read history,

what we think we can know, what we can't really know about people in the past, and indeed about people who were with us in the present. that's a very magical book and then Elizabeth Strout's book I don't know if you're familiar with her writing Oh I am very very familiar Are you a fan?

I'm a huge fan And I kind of picked up I think it was Olive Kittridge Just offhand if I'm honest I think my sister passed it to me And I started reading it And then just became gripped Like you know when you pick up a book

And you end up somewhere unexpected Absolutely I know exactly what you're you mean. I like the Lucy Barton series actually in particular, but this is neither. It's not Crotchty, Olive or sort of pensive Lucy. It's a new character called Artie Dam, a man. And he's a school teacher, very, very affecting. I mean, she's so skilled the way she can write in this understated way and then just get to you. I mean, I think lots of the judges cried when they read this book. And, you know, it's not easy with this lot. No, I will. I love the thought of

Elizabeth cutting through like that. And I was thinking about her this morning, actually. And I think what she's able to do is write about what a life is from beginning to end, which is no mean feat. What about Jarvis Cocker now? Frontman pulp. He is a showman, let's be honest. But he claimed last night that the novels written by men and this year's Booker Prize weren't as good as those written by women, although there are more men, four men and two women on the short list. there were more women, obviously, on the long list, which we're not going to go through each of those. But your thoughts or reaction to that comment? Well, it's funny, isn't it? I mean, it's sort of how these things shake out. I remember in the meetings, I made a note of this at one point.

He said, well, I like this because it was the first book by a man that I thought was any good. And it's true. You know, these books arrive randomly. The publishers send them in, and so you don't know what's coming to you when. and as it happened there were many, many books

that were excellent by women and, you know, when a book by a man that was all right came along, they sort of rejoiced. In the end, as you say, there are more men on this short list than women,

and I think Jarvis was struck by that because he thought that's, it's actually a little bit odd that it doesn't necessarily represent the process, but then, you know, you are trying to figure out, it's a different sort of decision, isn't it?

You're discussing as you go along and then you're arriving at a list. And as you say, there were a lot more women on the long list. With this job that I have, I actually don't get to read that many male authors if I'm being completely transparent. However, with these books, Jarvis also said he thinks men are rethinking their societal roles and that's what's been reflected in the books they write. So a theme of masculinity and crisis. Do you see that on this year's shortlist? Well, I don't terribly in the sense that I tend to, the way I read is I tend to have a sort of relationship with individual characters and I'm, you know, less struck by the theme. So I'll be honest about that. That's my

particular way of reading it. But I do, you know, I see what he meant. I mean, for instance, black bag by Luke Kennard, there's an actor, it's very funny by the way, but it's also profound in that there's a man who agrees to dress in a black, full body leather bag as part of a psychology experiment. And it does make you wonder, well, what makes a man? I mean, what makes a person, of course, but in this case, it happens to be a man. And what does it like to go around a city wearing something other than yourself? You know, so I think that provoked questions. I think, you know, Marlon James' book, which is about gay men in 1980s, Jamaica and the repression that they face, that, of course, speaks to that. And I think Douglas Stewart's book, John of

John is also, well, that's about men on the Isle of Harris who, due to, I think, their upbringing and their culture can't really say how they feel or, you know, can't have to hide an aspect of themselves. So I do see what he means, of course. And the disappearers is the one by Marlon James, just for people who are taking note. There has been a history of gender rouse associated with the Booker Prize.

Let's go back to 1991. Before your time, an all-male shortlist resulted in the creation. of the Women's Prize for Fiction, which we often talk about on Women's Hour as well. But is it a tricky balance to ensure female authors get equal footing without special treatment? No, actually, is a short answer. I think women absolutely hold their own.

And we don't tend to look and say, oh, are there enough women here? I also think, I mean, I tend to try and get on the panels, on the judging panels, more women than men. or if, I mean, that's just because of the way they tend to discuss things. I mean, having a surfeit of men can alter the discussion in particular ways. But having said that, it's also been the other way around where we've had three men and two women. And my personal preference then is that the chair be a woman, if that's the case.

So I don't, I do think about it in terms of the judging panels, but it doesn't become difficult in terms of what they decide about the books. I'm going to go back to 1991 again. Yes, because the typographia publishers festival on Saturday in London, you're going to be in conversation with Sir Ben Okre, the first black writer to win the Booker Prize back in that year of 91. What do you think, before I let you go, do these prizes do for writers and readers?

Well, we tend to put readers first in the sense that there are more of them than the writers who win, but it changes a writer's life. I mean, it's not only the sort of 800% increase in book sales, the next week, but, you know, international rights and a lifelong sticker on a book that says, you know, winner of the Booker Prize. And I hope it introduces them to a culture of readers as well. You know, that is a relationship that's important. It's not just about, you know, wearing a crown. It's about speaking to people. And I do think it makes a difference. I hope so anyway. Gabby Wood is the chief executive of the Booker Prize Foundation. Thanks so much for joining

us. The winner of the Booker Prize will be announced in London on the 9th of November. You can listen to the ceremony, which will be broadcast live on a special edition off-front row right here on BBC Radio 4. Thank you for all your messages coming in related to this statistic. 63% of women in the UK have wavy, curly or coily hair. It's according to the UK Curl Report published last month by Zenvi Beauty. Despite this, it can often be difficult for girls with tight curls to find a hairdresser who can comfortably style their hair. Now, not all salons. have the experience of styling textured hair, but in 2021, the Hair and Beauty Industry Authority

updated their standards, stating that all hairdressers should be trained to work with Afro textures. Paris Tyrell recently posted a video on social media about the experience she had at a Manchester-based salon. The video was viewed thousands of times and also ignited a conversation online. Paris is with me now. Tell me a little about what happened to you.

Hi there, yes. So I went to go and get a bouncy blowout at a salon that is quite well known. It's like really established in the beauty industry. And when I arrived, they turned me away because my hair texture was too curly for them to deal with, which was very disheartening, actually. I actually went to go and vlog the experience for it to be really positive and just kind of show my day. And then I kind of had to update the camera and say, well, I've just been turned away, which was really disappointing. And when I posted that update, I just didn't expect it to get the traction that it did, but it's almost at like a million views now. And like you said, the conversation that was sparked was immense. A lot of people had a lot of things to say about it. And the Solon, of course, they do say that their community has always been built on inclusivity. that it's a non-negotiable for us.

They say every single client should be able to trust the team, trained and confident to deliver the service they've booked every time. They have specialists within the team and they're working on training the entire team to work confidently with every hair type and texture so it won't happen again. They say the incident was not a reflection on their values or their team's commitment to every single client who walks through the door. They've spoken with you personally and they're looking forward to welcoming you back next month. So you can tell me how you feel that statement resonates with you. Yeah, so whilst the video started to blow up, I received a comment from the owner and also a message directly into my DMs. And it was really, really interesting because I'm a beauty business owner myself.

I own an aesthetics clinic in Manchester called Cave Clinic. and when she reached out, I felt like I really resonated with her. And I'm a beauty business owner, like I said myself. So I never want to bash another business with my industry. I don't believe in that. So the apology that she left me was so sincere. And I could feel that she'd made a mistake, missed something that is super important. You know, everyone should be able to go to any salon and be able to,

experience, you know, what they offer. But I knew that her apology came from a genuine place and it made me want to give her a chance. So I know that she invited me back in October, but I actually went last week to go get my hair blown out. And? It was great. I loved it. I had an amazing experience.

She'd actually put the whole team into training within the week. So by the Tuesday, they were already training away to learn how to do all different. different hair textures, which I was like, this is insane. Implementing the changes, acknowledging the issue at hand and changing your business to adapt around a new demographic that maybe you've not properly been introduced to is the fundamentals of running a successful business, in my opinion. Well, I should probably mention that the salon is called P-Louise. Well, we gave a call out to listeners this morning.

And I'm going to bring in Anita in just a moment, Anita Ramshini, who's the director of a vest to Hair Academy based in Salford. Here's some. I believe there's a systemic failure in the hair industry. Frequently women of colour are excluded from salons where black hairstylists are unavailable, puts black hairstylists in inverted commas. In my experience, growing up in a predominantly white area, hairdressers had no experience of my 4A curls, that's a certain kind of diameter of curl,

and insisted on straightening my hair so that it would be more manageable first, also in inverted The first time I had my hair cut in a salon, the outcome was undesirable and the experience was alienating, getting told by the stylist, I've never done this before. It's unacceptable and absolutely a race issue. There's another one that came in as well. I have very thick curly, coily hair when I was very young and got my first wages from my first job. I went to an expensive famous salon and the stylist confidently suggested layers. She cut some very short layers in my hair and when she dried it, it sprung up and I looked like a poodle. I was too shy to say anything. I paid up and went home and cried. Recently, I've started going to specialist curly hairdressers who do dry cuts, curl by curl. I've also discovered techniques and products to use at home. They don't realise many people are envious of my hair, but don't realize the time and money I spent on it. And the teen trauma of not being able to do the styles that other girls had. She says she finds curly hair is hard work. Anita, let me bring you in. You're passionate about textured hair. Tell me a little bit about what the stories you're

hearing both from our listeners and from Paris? Unfortunately, it's something that I am very familiar with. Throughout my years of being a curly girl myself and going through the traumas of going to hairdressers and they're not knowing what to do with my hair is where it took me to doing 10 years of hairdressing to become the stylist I needed to be to help all of these curly girls with curly or Afro hair to feel welcome in any space in any hairdressers. And so what is missing do you think and how quickly could it be rectified? I don't know whether there is the will there that Paris describes so beautifully in the P. Louise

salon for people to get on board and change it up. There is some legal requirements of dating standards. All hairdressers should be trained to work with Afro textures, but it doesn't sound like it's happening. Unfortunately, yes, the standards have been changed, but basically within colleges, they're not up to date at the moment, so they're filtering through. So unfortunately, hairdress is still qualified without actually understanding curly and curly hair. And someone like myself, which does an academy, we fill in them foundations for them. so then they'd be able to go out there and be able to make all these clients feel welcome

instead of feeling like it's a problem because their hair is beautiful. We should be embracing it and making them feel like it is beautiful too. Here's Beanie. She says, I have a head of tight curls. My hair has become curlier as I've got older. Totally agree that finding a hairdresser

who doesn't want to straighten your hair or blow dry it is really difficult. What is so much more difficult in practical terms, Anita? if in fact it is. So the follicle that grows out is oval. So depending on how oval it is, the texture becomes a lot more curlier, which becomes more drier.

It needs more moisture. It becomes frizzy. And it's very delicate as it's more curlier. So it's got, and it's different throughout the hair. So it needs to be tracked differently. So if you're not trained in it, it's very hard to diagnose that and use the right products, which needs high moisture, it needs protein,

so you've got to balance it out. There has been some reports of curly hair getting it done, costing more than straight hair. Yes. Is that true? Yes, it is true. Even I can vouch for that. Yes, Paris.

Oh, wow. I mean, but that, I mean, I'm sure that's quite annoying and I'll come to you, Paris, on this front. The reason be? Honestly, I spend hundreds on my hair, like, Hundreds and hundreds. Even this month, you know, I've probably spent about £600 for booking my next hair appointment. Just because of the specialism that's required, so there's less people available to actually offer the services that you're after. And yeah, they can basically charge as much as they want because not many people offer it.

And also the time that it takes, it does take longer to detangle, braid, etc, if necessary. So let's see. With the conversation that you have been the catalyst for Paris, let's see how changes may come. You can find Paris Tyrell. She posted a video on social media about the experience that led to change. I also want to thank Anita Ramshini, the director of Avesta Hare and Academy based in Salford for her time too. A message, a memory of Catherine Zita Jones. Years ago, I was assistant choreographer on the all children's production of Bugsie Malone in the West End. Catherine was in the chorus. Out of all the children who came and went during the run, she was a student. she stood out. Apart from being a beautiful 15-year-old, she was polite, energetic, always had a smile on her face. And even when she had an injury on stage and had to have a couple of shows off,

was still smiling. Well, I have to say, I really enjoyed speaking to her. I enjoyed your company as well. Join Anita tomorrow. Her guests will include the writer Naomi Alderman on her new novel

and musician Sky Edwards, who will be performing with Morchiba in the studio. That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time. Zandi, happy anniversary. What are you talking about? Have I missed something? Yes, Zandi, you have.

We are over a year into making WhatsApp docs. You didn't even get me a card. Is it really over a year? It is. Think of all the episodes we've done. How to look after our feet, our shoulders, our hips, our teeth. We've explored snoring, cholesterol, the immune system, endometriosis. All with the help of expert guests.

I think it's fair to say we have plundered the world of health and well-being, equipping ourselves and our listeners. with the best information out there on how to look after our minds, our bodies, our souls even. And we're not stopping, aren't we, Chris? We're most certainly not, Sarn't. We have a lot of new topics coming up, from tinnitus to acne, crying, male fertility. We are holding steadfast in our mission to sort facts from fiction, debunking wellness myths along the way, and you can find all of our previous episodes of WhatsApp docs in the feed on BBC Sounds.

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