Woman's Hour - 23/12/2025

Episode Date: December 23, 2025

Women's voices and women's lives - topical conversations to inform, challenge and inspire.

Hello, I'm Dashi Arnihani, and welcome to Women's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello, and welcome to the programme. Now, if you're in the mood for a little Christmas treat, well, you're in the right place. Come with us as we fall back in time to celebrate some of the extraordinary women whose voices have echoed through London's iconic jazz club, Ronnie Scots. I'm thinking Nina Simone, I'm thinking Ella Fitzgerald, Roberta Flack, and that's just to name a few. And to really get you in the mood, we'll have a live performance in the studio from some of the club's current musicians,

as we explore the extraordinary role women have played and continue to play in jazz. Also, what's it like at the heart of Iran's women-led protests? A new book documents the deep and enduring friendship between two women across the front. front lines of this movement. And as we arrive at the day before Christmas Eve, when the travel plans are being double-checked, the guest beds are being made up and someone somewhere, maybe that's you, is already worrying about the seating plan. Well, we'll be talking about how to make Christmas feel inclusive when several generations come together, particularly older family members. What helps everyone feel welcome, involved and valued? Well, I'd love to hear from you about this.

how will you make sure older guests are engaged and enjoy themselves? And if you're the senior visitor, what's that small request that would make the world of difference for you? Do send us your thoughts or questions and we will put them to our experts. You can text the program on 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour. You can, of course, email through the website or send a voice note or message on WhatsApp. That's 0300-100-444. Just watch those data charges.

But first, let me start with this. Women and babies have become targets in conflicts around the world, according to an investigation by the Guardian newspaper. Along with data collected by the NGO Insecurity Insight, it reveals an unprecedented level of violence facing women at one of the most vulnerable times in their lives, just before giving birth, during labour and after. Most of these attacks have taken place in hospitals in Ukraine,

Sudan and Gaza, where hundreds of thousands of pregnant women have been affected. UN women, a branch of the United Nations, said it constitutes a pattern of reproductive violence. Well, to discuss the details of the investigation further, I'm joined by Liz Cookman, who worked on the story at The Guardian and is also Europe correspondent at The Observer. Liz, welcome to Women's Hour. Hi, thank you for having me. Just start with telling us what exactly you found. So this investigation found that there have been almost 300 attacks or disruptions on maternity care over the last three to four years since the war in Ukraine started.

It's a scale of violence that affects women and pregnant – sorry, pregnant women and children that was not previously known. These kind of statistics or data has not really been compiled before. It was known already that last year had the largest number of attacks on hospitals, but maternity care. is not something that is usually focused on in these statistics. This highlights that these attacks are not just incidental, but they're destroying services that women depend on for safe pregnancy and childbirth. You know, this is a fundamental human right. It's recognised by the World Health Organization in the UN.

Just tell us how many pregnant women are caught up in violence in these countries. It's hard to find specific data on pregnant women, because some of these conflicts are so difficult to access. I mean, foreign journalists have not really had access all to Gaza or Sudan, and some aid agencies have been limited. But what we do know is that there is a record number of women and girls living within 50 kilometres of a conflict. That's 676 million women at the moment.

And although global maternal mortality rates have fallen by about 40% since 2000, and progress is actually stalled and it's now fragile. A woman dies every two minutes from pregnancy and childbirth and many of those, around half of those, are in conflict affected areas. And as you say, you know, women and babies are dying in these attacks, but there are other consequences you found as well. Yeah, I mean, this causes a whole plethora of effects

from, you know, stress to birth complications. It means that women do not go. to seek the life-saving care that they need for them and their babies because of fear of either the hospital coming under attack or is particularly in Gaza, ambulances have come under attack while women are trying to reach the hospitals. It has caused a rise in stillbirth in Ukraine. It has caused all sorts of difficulties in terms of giving birth in shelters, women giving birth at home with no medical care. It's a very complex issue. And you found that maternity units have been attacked,

but how can you be sure that they are being targeted specifically? It's extremely difficult to say that these targets were deliberately aimed at, sorry, these attacks were deliberately aimed at women and babies because hospitals are generally multi-use buildings. They have different units and different wards. But what we can say is that by hitting hospitals, places that are supposed to be safe space, which is potentially a war crime. You are denying the most vulnerable people that safe space in the care that they need. And I know you spent a week in Ukraine this summer

and you visited hospitals where attacks are taken place. You spoke to women who had experienced drone attacks whilst in hospital whilst pregnant. What did they tell you? Yeah, so over the summer I visited three frontline maternity hospitals, one in Kharkiv, which is Austin. and considered Ukraine's most bombarded city, one in Slaviansk, which is the last maternity hospital open in Dombas, and one in Curzon, which is considered Ukraine's most dangerous city due to the endless drone attacks often on civilians. And women, they had faced circling drones as they went to hospitals. Some had actually overheard the hospitals being hit in the days before they went into labour. All of the hospitals that I went to had either

suffered direct attacks or had dealt with the consequence of attacks on nearby hospitals in the days before I visited. And the women, obviously, understandably, were extremely stressed that many of them had considered not going to hospital at all because they weren't sure if it was safe. When I was at the hospital in Kharkiv, there were air raid sirens all the time, and heavily pregnant women were having to run down stairs to the shelter. Some were high-risk pregnancies, newborn babies were being taken in and out of the shelter. It's extremely difficult when you're already feeling extremely vulnerable. And I should say, I mean, following claims that maternity hospitals in Ukraine have been

deliberately targeted, Russia has denied deliberately targeting civilians. But UN women, as I said earlier, they have deemed this reproductive violence. Can you tell us what exactly is meant by this? Reproductive violence is when there is a pattern of violence or attacks that target the country's ability to reproduce or a people's ability to reproduce and recover after the war. So that can mean types of sexual violence. It can be types of violence against women. And it's also an attack on healthcare that supports reproduction. I mean, all major powers are signatories to the Geneva Conventions and they commit to protecting civilians from

warring parties. And we know, though, in the past year, there has been a record number of attacks on healthcare systems. Are there legal consequences? to reproductive violence? Currently there isn't. You know, all attacks on healthcare are considered a potential war crime, but very little is being done to punish people who do it. There are plenty of excuses.

Lawyers told me that often the state actors or militias will claim that a facility is being used to house military premises or soldiers, and therefore making it a legitimate target, it's quite a complex issue. But physicians for human rights, who I spoke to about this, said that there is a culture of impunity, and that needs to end. And whilst you were in Ukraine, you also spoke to the husband of Diana Koschik, who had been killed with her unborn child. What did he say to you? Yeah, his story was absolutely devastating.

So his wife was in a maternity hospital in southeastern Ukraine and she called him when there was an aerode siren as she tried to get to the shelter. But unfortunately, the hospital was hit while she was on her way and she died at the scene. It was absolutely devastating for him. I mean, his whole future had been taken away from him in the space of 10 seconds.

He'd not only lost his wife, he'd lost his unborn child. You know, Ukraine has the highest birth rate in the world. and, sorry, the lowest birth rate in the world and the highest death rate. This kind of thing makes it very difficult for a country to rebuild and recover from a conflict. Some people will wonder, you know, why are hospitals not adequately protected in these situations, given they have some of our most vulnerable? Yeah, it's extremely difficult to protect hospitals. You know, partly because putting any kind of soldiers or military infrastructure in the area could make it potentially a target.

partly because, especially in Ukraine, a lot of the time when hospitals are hit, it's not always a direct to hit. It can be, for example, air defence is taking down drones that were flying over and the debris hits the hospital. It's very difficult to protect them. I mean, you spent a lot of time looking at this, researching it, investigating it. What does the future look like here? You know, will anything change? I'm really sad to say I don't think it will. I think until we see proper war crimes prosecutions,

until we see state actors, people like Putin, taken to court, held accountable for the things that they've done, these things will continue. Liz, thank you very much for joining us on Women's Hour today. That was Liz Cookman. Now, the third episode of our new podcast, Send in the Spotlight, is out now, and you can catch it on BBC Sounds. So this podcast, in this episode of the podcast,

we are talking about the joys and challenges of the festive season for a family with a send child, that special educational needs and disabilities. And Nula hears from two dads who know what it can be like, Gaz and Andy. Here they are, showing some of their experiences and advice. Our first Christmas was horrendous. Why was that?

It was because we were basically, I mean, I've got a video of me where I'm trying to force him to his presence. He's in the middle of the meltdown, and I'm trying to force him, I'd forgotten I did it, to go and see his presence, because I just thought, autistic or not,

when you see your presence, you're going to be happy, and it didn't work. And essentially, if you reflect afterwards and you kind of go, who have I made this abate? It's very easy sometimes to realize I thought I was doing it for my kid,

but I wasn't. I was doing it because I wanted my kid and me to have this wonderful magical day. You could still have that magical day. It's just going to be, slightly different to the one you might be used to. And it may take a couple of years or a couple of Christmases to work out, right, this worked,

this was a complete failure. I won't do that again. So it's kind of trial and error. And hopefully after a couple of Christmases, you work out what's right for you. And you can hear more from Dad's Andy and Gaz on Send in the Spotlight, Episode 3 on BBC Sounds, which is out now. Whilst you're there, hit subscribe so you'll get future episodes automatically. Next, we're going to delve back in time

to remember some of the most spectacular female voices to perform at London's iconic jazz venue Ronnie Scots. And as an early Christmas present to you, getting ready, as I speak, are three extraordinary musicians from the venue who will be giving us a live performance in just a few minutes. Regular singer at the club Natalie Williams and the club's head of music, Sarah Weller,

are here to tell us more. Firstly, Sarah and Natalie, welcome to Women's Hour. Thank you so much for having us. Before we hear your rendition I'm not going to give away what song it is So let's start with you Because Ronnie Scots is a London institution But for those you haven't heard of the club

Tell us a bit more about it What exactly is it Ronnie Scots is definitely a musical Legendary venue Based in Soho And we've currently been at the Frith Street venue Now for 60 years But it was open in Gerard Street before that

And we just present the best music Best Jazz in the world And it has an extraordinary history, doesn't it? I mean, this is Women's Hour, of course. So tell us about some of the spectacular women who have performed there. Well, a very significant saxophonist called Viread. She played an unprecedented 10 weeks at the club in the 60s, which is completely unheard of. So she is amazing.

And of course, we had Sera Vaughn, arguably the most amazing singer that has ever existed. Nina Simone, Ella Fitzger. Gerald, Blossom Deary, so many names. And what I find fascinating is these women have come along and they've not just sang at Ronnie Scots. You know, they've got funny stories associated with them too. And they often interact with the audience in sometimes unexpected ways. Well, yes, it's legendary that Nina Simone would come in

while the audience was there with her plastic bag. She'd dump it at the side of the piano and then begin. And the audience would just be glad that she was there. with Ella Fitzgerald, she had to have a backstage toilet installed and it has been forever known as Ella's crapper. And in terms of Blossom Deary, she could see someone singing along with her at the bar. She stopped the music and said, I'm the singer, you know, you can stop singing. But another amazing artist is Flora Purim who'd just given birth when she toured with Chick-Rear and returned to forever.

She brought her daughter on stage and, no, she was on stage and then Ronnie Scott would hold her baby and she would slip off during a solo to breastfeed and then come straight back on the stage. So amazing women, yeah. Wow. And I should say Ella's Crapper, that was actually the name of the brand of toilet, wasn't it?

Absolutely, absolutely. Well, you're about to reopen the upstairs space after a refurbishment. Tell us what's different about it. Well, it's never been a venue. before. It was a bar and we used to hold live music. But we've recreated it. It's going to be the smallest, greatest venue in the world. And it's going to be very much like downstairs, but it's going to be beautiful. It's going to have the same old style hospitality. We're going to have very vocal, focus music as well as jazz, blues. We've got our own gospel, choir.

And we're going to start a classical night. And Natalie, I've got you standing at the mic a little bit away from me. Yeah. But just tell us how did you first become involved with Ronnie Scots? Oh my God. Well, it was actually James Pearson, who's currently going to be playing piano for me. He is the musical director of the Ronnie Scott's All-Stars. I think it was almost 20 years ago when I got the call saying we're looking for a regular

house singer to do the support sets. And I came in, I did a little weekend of gigs and that was that. And we never looked back. I mean, I've been there since about 2007, I think. Much to my dad's delight. He was a huge jazz fan. He used to save every last penny to go and see his heroes play at the club. And then when I called him, told him, Dad, I'm the resident singer. He was over the moon. Oh, you must have been wow. Yeah. It's. And like you said, you've been there for two decades. What's it like to perform on the stage where Nina Simone, Sarah Vaughn, Roberta Flack, so many of our greatest singers of all time have played? I mean, you know what? It never gets old. I think the room is really special. You feel the energy. You look around at all the. pictures on the wall, you know, pictures of artists, live performances happening on that

very stage. So it always feels incredible. The audience are really respectful. You feel that there's an energy as soon as you walk into the building with so much history behind it, you know, so you stand every time, you know, it never gets old. I love it. I've played in many, many jazz clubs in the world, but it's still my number one. Just tell us a bit about how you program the venue, but also how do you find exciting music? like Natalie. I know Natalie you said how you came along to Ronnie Scots, but a lot of the time do they come to you or are you actively looking for them? Oh, it's a real mixture. There's three bookers at Ronnie Scots. There's myself, Paul Pace and Ashka Kamarowska Jalal. And we're all

so passionate about music. So we're always looking, always listening, whether it comes in or we go out, it's from everywhere. Well, I want to read in one text that a listener has sent in. It's from Isabel and she says that she saw Nina Simone at Ronnie Scots in 1987. It was possibly her last performance at the club. I was only 21. I was just out of uni. I'd moved to London from Yorkshire for my first job and I was taken to Ronnie Scots by my friends. I loved listening to Nina through uni, so what a treat.

Although her voice lacked some of the power of her earlier recordings and I was definitely seeing her at the end of her career, it was one of the best live performances of my life. So there you go. It's just the memories that people have. have of the venue and the people they see there. Absolutely. I mean, I've just saw so many things, even before I started singing there, so many incredible concerts. And like you said, Sarah, I mean, you know,

obviously there are some established acts and there are people that you come across, but we've even had people that worked in the club, you know, in the cloak room, for instance, and then suddenly they're performing there on stage and turn out to be incredible musicians so they can come from absolutely anywhere. And, Natalie, when you are performing, just tell us what is the audience like at Ronnie Scots? Because people might have a perception that jazz is quite male heavy but when you're looking out I don't know I don't think so I mean I think it depends what kind of gig you go to

but that applies to any kind of music you know there are certain things that maybe is a bit more kind of in a male kind of interest area but I think for me when I look out I see a very a very respectful audience they really get the memo they come in they know to be quiet and listen and respect the artists you know there's officially there's no photography and all that kind of stuff which is really nice because it's quite an analogue experience, because these days, you know, you go to other venues and you kind of stand behind people filming the entire concert and you're thinking, why are you not in the moment? And I think although it is important to kind of document things and that's how

people kind of get to get a little insight, I think it's a really nice analogue experience, like I said. And I think, I don't know, I feel like it's equal men and women. I don't know, Sarah. Well, I think some shows, you know, fusion's probably the last type of music that's mostly male dominated but you know we've got amazing bass players like mahini day who are coming through and you know just just being such a great role model for young girls that are picking up the bass you know Esperanza was leading the way but we have someone like linda mayhano who played with pat matini so it's a changing world and we're really representing women and we're really trying to push them in the venue so it's no longer just great female jazz vocalists but we've got

guitarists, drummers, bassists, everything. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we've had some incredible drummers. We had a female drummer from Thailand called Sarlin this year. But we've got Sheila E. coming up next year. So grab your tickets. That's a real rare ticket. But we've had Cindy Blackman, Terry Lynn Carrington in terms of drummers.

But, yeah, amazing. And when this new space upstairs opens, Natalie, tell us what your new role will be there. I am going to be hosting a regular jazz singer's jam session night every Wednesday, which is really exciting because until now, even though they've had jam sessions on a regular basis at the moment every single Monday, hosted by Andy Davies, who's a great trumpet player, is kind of a little bit more focused on the instrumental side of things. And, you know, occasionally a singer might jump up and, you know,

if I've done the early set, for instance, I might stick around and come up and sing a song. But generally it's more of an instrumental vibe. whereas there needs to be a place for aspiring jazz singers to come and perform and like meet fellow musicians and fellow jazz singers and stuff and, you know, kind of... So a great place to collaborate it sounds like, yeah. So I'm really looking forward to that and there's been so much feedback. We've got a little Instagram page and people have been sending in their videos of them singing. So, yeah, I think it's going to be pretty well subscribed to, yeah.

Well, I can tell that you grew up loving jazz, listening to jazz. Just tell us who are the female jazz performers that you admire. I mean, it's everyone that Sarah mentioned really. I mean, I remember like when I was younger, I think I always joke about this when we do our Ronnie Scott's All-Stars shows telling the story of Ronnie Scott. I always joke how when I was 12. I like listening to Kylie and George Michael and Michael Jackson and that sort of thing.

My dad, being such a huge jazz fan, just kind of went, listen to this instead. And then he gave me a live album of Ella Fitzgerald live in Nice Jazz Festival. And I don't know what it was. it just kind of, it just suddenly got me completely hooked. I knew that album inside and out, and then I ran with it. We were listening to a lot of pretty heavy jazz, you know, a lot of John Coltrane, Ornick Coleman,

which was what my dad was into, which was as a 12-year-old kid. Yeah. Not the favourite thing, but once I discovered the jazz singers, I was in. And Kylie and George were out. Not completely out. I mean, I still like them. Last Christmas is a tune. But, no, I think, yeah, I, you know, you kind of have to have

that in, somebody who introduces you to the music. And I've never looked back really. Well, Jackie's just texted in and she says we saw Natalie only last week. She was fabulous and what a way to start Christmas. Thank you. Women's listeners are big, big fans.

Sarah, what are your iconic female jazz vocalists? Oh, Flora Purim is definitely up there. Sarah Vaughan is my number one but there are so many amazing contemporary jazz singers that I absolutely love. Veronica Swift, I don't know one better than her at the moment.

Cecil McCloran Salvant, Kurt Elling, and we had a new up-and-coming New York jazz vocalist, Aeneas Reno in November. Definitely someone to watch. And Samara Joy. Samara Joy, yeah. She's incredible. You know, there are so many great

women in jazz, and there always has been, to be fair. Do you think there is still sexism in the jazz world, Natalie? I mean, I think it's, I don't know if it's I mean, I think it's one of those things that, yeah, used to be a bit kind of male heavy, perhaps, where there are so many more musicians. If you look at the music colleges, the institutions where people are studying jazz,

it's becoming far more equal. Not complete, it's not 50-50, but there are way more. And I think women are getting more opportunities. And in some ways, people are aware of like, you know, it's time for the women to shine. So some people want all-female bands. Look at Beyonce's band, if she's not a jazz singer, but, you know, all-female bands. So I think that's happening more and more. Definitely. Yeah, D.D. Bridgewater the last time she came to Ronnie, she had an all-female band.

Rachel Eckroth. And when I, before I started working at Ronies, I went to see Rachel Z. Because Wayne Shorter had an all-female band. And I saw them and it blew me away. I had never seen an all-female band before. And yeah, it just shows that everyone needs representation, you know, to help them come up. And of course, like Natalie says, it starts in education. And we're seeing so many more young girls, Emma Ravage came through Nijo. She's now playing the world with her jazz orchestra and her band. She's signed to At Records. And yeah, we championed her when she was in Nijio

and presented her, you know, at one of the live streams during COVID. Yeah, amazing. And Ronnie Scots, I mean, it's been going for over 60 years now. So what do you think the next chapter will look like? Ronnie Scots. Well, we're opening the upstairs at Ronnie's in February. And that's the most exciting thing that's happened to Ronnie's for a very, very long time.

So that's as far as I can see at the moment. Natalie, can you look into the future? I mean, I do. Yeah, I mean, I'm going to stop there as well because there are exciting things happening, but this is the imminent exciting thing that's going to be happening. This is the Christmas treat. This is the Christmas tree that we're really looking for it.

Okay. Thank you so much to both of you and your amazing band for coming in. That was a delight to listen to you. Thank you so much. That was so well. Ahead of Music at Ronnie Scott. and Natalie Williams, brilliant jazz singer and resident musician at Ronnie Scots. Now, my next guest is part of a collaboration that spanned continents.

Nilo Tabrizi wrote for the sun after long nights with fellow Iranian journalist Fatima Jamalpur. Now, the book's A Powerful account of Iran's Women-led Uprising and the century of women's activism that preceded it. But it's also a story of friendship, sisterhood, and the experiences of women at the heart of the protest. Whilst Fatima joined the protests in Iran, Nilo was covering the protests from New York, and they corresponded constantly to shed light on what was happening. When I spoke to Nilo, I started by asking her what she remembered about first meeting Fatima. We met years ago. She was visiting New York.

She was doing her second master's at Northwestern University in journalism. And we got set up on a professional coffee date. And, you know, get set up on these things. They feel a little innocuous. But from the moment that we met, we had such a clip. We just had this instant chemistry. I feel like we each saw versions of ourselves in each other. And the thing that really stuck with me was I felt like I met someone who deeply loved Iran as much as I did

and was very committed to covering our home country. So it was really nice to kind of see that in someone else that I, you know, would grow to admire in our relationship. So the two of you have only actually met in person once. Yes, that's right, yes. And Fatima ended up going back to Iran when her dad. I became sick with cancer, I believe. What did she tell you about going back? Did she reveal how she felt about the country and what she might face while she was there? When she told me she was returning, this had been a time where we would chat all the time. You know, I think this is

very common. A lot of Iranians, we have all these digital pen pal relationships with people inside the country. And so that's kind of the relationship that we had. We would check in all the time. And then one day I got this message where she told me that, you know, my father has cancer. I'm going to return. back to Iran and you're not going to hear from me. And if you don't hear from me, that means I'm safe. And that's the only information that I got from her. And I didn't hear from her for about a year. And I try to get in touch with her through mutual friends as different news items come up over the year. And I can't get a hold of her at all. But I kind of just had to keep repeating to myself that she's safe and kind of be comfortable with that silence, which was so difficult

after building all of this intimacy and then not hearing from her at all. And people listening may wonder, why does her silence indicate safety? Why, if you don't hear from her, does that mean she's safe? This is really something that I only understood after we got back in touch, but it's because when she goes back to Iran, you know, she wipes all of her devices. There's no way for us to communicate because she was anticipating that as soon as she was landing into Iran, that she was going to be interrogated. Security forces, we're going to ask for all of her contacts. So this is her way of keeping me safe, really sacrificing connections with people and, you know, intimacy in order to keep me safe and probably others as well that she was in touch with. So it was around a year until you heard from her. And she emailed you from Tehran, didn't she? I imagine that must have been bittersweet because it's hearing from a dear friend, but at the same time it can't be good news necessarily. What did she tell you? And how did you feel on getting that email?

I was actually in the middle of deadline. The woman life freedom protests were about in their second or third week in September. So I had my head down. I'm working on a different story. And I get an email from her in the middle of it. And I had that stomach roller coaster drop feeling all of a sudden when I got this email from her. And she said, these days are exciting. I have been interrogated by the Ministry of Intelligence for the past year due to my reports with BBC Persian. But I'm excited. Something is changing. Hope, hope for seeing you. in Tehran, hope for a woman life freedom. So such a, you know, shocking message to get one, I'm so glad to hear from her, but there's so much to hold in that message. She's letting me know she's safe, and she's also letting me know that she's been interrogated over this past year. And the other thing that really stuck out was a sense of optimism. Any time that we spoke about Iran, neither of us ever had a sense of optimism about the situation. So to have all of those feelings together and now this new one from her, I mean, that was really, yeah, there was a lot to hold. centered around the protest, as you said, woman life freedom uprising. Tell us how those protests

began. So a young woman named Massagina Amini, she was reportedly stopped by the Morality Police for improper wearing of hijab. We don't know what she wore that day. We have no visual evidence of what that looked like. But the next thing that we saw is this image of her laying unconscious in a hospital bed. It was reported that this is what she looked like after being taken in the custody of the morality police. It really looked like she was. She was beaten within an inch of her life. I mean, it's an image that comes right to my head when we talk about it. She's laying in the hospital bed.

Her face is bruised and puffy. She has dried blood on her ears. She's unconscious. And when that image is shared, this is something that just incensed so many Iranians. And the movement really grew from that, from seeing, you know, another example of one of our people disposed of so casually and cruelly by the Islamic Republic. And this is Masa Jinamini. It's really important we say her name.

explain what her death meant for women in Iran and still means today. I think so many of us could see ourselves in Jinnah, and I want to intentionally use her Kurdish name because that is the name that her family knew her by. And her name, Jina, means life. So it's a really beautiful name and to honor her spirit. So so many of us could see ourselves in Jina, right? It's so common for women to be harassed by the morality police. It's something that women often ask each other in Tehran.

When you meet your friend at a cafe, you'll ask, you know, Kessi Girdad. Did anyone harass you on your way over? And you're just kind of checking to see what it was like on your way there. So because of this harassment being a feature of daily life, many of us could see ourselves in her, that just one wrong interaction could end up and being beaten to death by the morality police. Women in Iran have a long history of protesting in the country.

But how were the women life freedom protests different from what's happened before? Yeah, so they were the largest and most widespread. So what that means is not just in Tehran, where Jina was killed, not just in her home province of Kordistan. She's a Kurdish woman, but all over the country. What was really beautiful to see was this cross-ethnic solidarity. You know, the pains that Balochie people in Iran felt, they could see themselves in Juna and rose up in solidarity too.

So we saw it in the small island of Kish, which is a vacation island. We saw protests in Qom and Mashad that are, you know, hard-line cities that are religious cities. And we even saw protests in solidarity in Sistan-Bolochistan, province, which is on the border with Pakistan in southeastern Iran. And indeed, you know, the deadliest single day for protesters in the woman life freedom movement was in Istanbul, so just it was a moment of connection of seeing each other through grief and pain and that transforming and transmuting into action. And I should say that you work in the visual forensics team at the Washington Post. Explain to our listeners what visual forensics is and how it aids you reporting on what's happening in Iran. So at the visual forensics team at the post, we do something called open source reporting. And what this means is we use available sources of information to reveal new information for our audience.

So in the context of Iran, that looks like all the protest videos that are being disseminated on telegram and on Instagram, we would verify these videos, confirm the location and see what are the themes that arise. And so it's all about using the available sources of information. So other things might look like satellite imagery, using ship tracking data. essentially all these different things that are out there and what can we use to, you know, approach a story with a new light. And with the context of Iran, I mean, it's incredibly difficult to do journalism inside the country. The post, we haven't had a correspondent there since my colleague, Jason Rezayan, was imprisoned. And open source reporting is really, I think, such a great way to do accountability-based reporting from afar and safely. And so are you working

with people on the ground? Do you have contacts in Iran then? Yes. I mean, I have been reporting on Iran for probably seven years now. And so just in this time, I've built up a network of people, of different people that I've interviewed for stories. So each time there's a news event, I will just kind of contact different people that I know and get insights from them. And just, you know, each story builds upon another. So I feel really lucky each story get to expand my network of sources in the country. Your book details what's going on between you and Fatima and the correspondence between you. But one of the things that I was fascinating, fascinated by is you both talk with such eloquence and beauty about the lives of your parents,

but your grandparents, your grandmothers, but also the history of the women's movement in Iran, which is really beautifully woven into the book. And I should say there's a lot of stuff in there that I wasn't aware of necessarily, but that there was this glorious period of women's rights, actually, in the middle of the 20th century. And Iran had rights like abortion rights. Can you tell us just some of the history of the women's rights movement in Iran. So we can trace the history of Iranian's women's activism to the turn of the 20th century. And I think it was really important to, you know, explain this to our audience because this moment didn't happen in a vacuum. It came after a century of activism. And so, you know, really the

women's rights movement started with the constitutional revolution in Iran. This was a time of society opening up and thinking about what's our relationship with the ruling monarchy and how could this be a more of a representative partnership with its own people. And so in that kind of opening up, that's where calls for women's activism started as well. So just after that time, we had things like the first women's focus publication. We had the first women's rights group. So all of this is a really rich history and they're really important figures. And, you know, Fatim and I always talked about lineage and the things that we inherit. This is why we write about the women in our family, our grandmothers, our great-grandmothers, our mothers, but also, you know, our sisters,

the capital S sisterhood that we have and everything that was passed down to us from a century of women fighting for their rights. And you stayed in touch with Fatima over the year and over the course of the Women Life Freedom Movement. What sort of things was she telling you? She was attending street protests. And we had to come up with a system to stay safe because as many people as protests were increasing, you wouldn't go out with your phone anymore because if you were filming something, a member of the IRGC, the Bassees would come and grab your phone out of your hand and use that as a way to arrest you. So we had a check-in system. She would email me when she left and emailed me when she got home. She would send me kind of portraits of what happened.

She would send me pictures of notes that protesters would pass each other in just kind of notes of encouragement, these handwritten letters, calligraphy, saying women life freedom. saying things like you look more beautiful with your hair out. So I felt like I was there just through our correspondence together. And at what point did you both think we should write a book about this? Well, it's interesting. So when Fatima got back in touch with me and we discussed what was going on, she then emailed me a week later and said, maybe this is crazy, but I really want to write. I mean, imagine being Fatima in this moment. She's an incredibly strong journalist, but she's not able to report because she's been banned from doing journalism.

she's been interrogated by the Ministry of Intelligence. I mean, all of us, like, we want to be a part of history as it's unfolding as reporters. I think that's deeply important to all of us. And so when she messaged me that, I said absolutely right away, because we had already written together and we always had a very natural flow of writing in a dual narrative with each other, just kind of thinking about how our perspectives and our work kind of fill in the gaps for one another and present this interesting view to our audience. I was already working with an agent about a book on Persian poetry and identity. For me, I'd never think art is frivolous,

but in this moment, I didn't think that I wanted to write about poetry while I was seeing all these visuals of state violence and people getting killed. I really wanted to find a way to honor that moment. And we knew that people were paying attention, and this was the largest and most widespread protest movement in the Islamic Republic's history. We both knew that people are going to want to know about this moment,

and we thought we would be the right voices to come together to tell it. And how and where is Fattenham? now? Is she still in Iran? No, she isn't the US now. So as we were approaching the one-year anniversary of Gina's death, we noticed that there was increased state suppression. So Gina's family members were getting harassed. Her uncle and father were being jailed at this time. The state security forces were going after family members whose loved ones were killed in the protests. And Fatima and I, through the course of writing the book, I'd always asked her, is there a point in which you want to leave?

And she never wanted to, right? I mean, this is her home. This is her everything. And as the state suppression became really clear, she was advised that it would be safe for her to go. So she one day told me that she wanted to go. And we put everything in place as soon as possible. And she came to New York in November 2020.

And in the meantime, the woman life freedom protests are still continuing. But at the same time, so are the crackdowns by the authorities. I mean, just last week, the Nobel Peace Prize winner, and laureate Nargis Mohamedi was taken to hospital after being violently arrested. Do you think progress has been made? Do you feel optimistic about the course for women in the country? Yes, I mean, Tehran is very visually different now than before the Women, Life, Freedom Movement.

My friends will send photos of women without hijab or, you know, not even the hijab is on their shoulders, just women are walking out defiantly women of all ages. And it's not that the hijab laws have changed, if anything, Parliament tried to put it in stricter laws in response to the protests. But each day that a woman goes out without her headscarf, I mean, that is the success of the woman life freedom movement. It's an active daily protest. So I think that is really, really important to call out

and just note that these women are continuing to protest in the face of mounting state suppression. That was Nelu Tubrizi. And the book which Nelu and Fatima Jamalpur have written together, it's called for the sun after long nights, and it's out now. Well, earlier on, we had a fantastic musical treat from Ronnie Scots and Rob has just written in to say, what a musical treat, thank you so much.

I'm the stereotypical jazz fan, male, white and of a certain age, but I'm delighted to see that the hugely talented musicians who pass through the jazz club nights at Worcester's iconic Mars Bar are of all ages, nationalities and genders. Earlier in the year, we were treated to a series of gigs from bands led by female drummers. Rob, you're very, very welcome. And earlier on in the show, I did ask you,

what you are doing to make Christmas feel more inclusive, particularly if you've got many generations of family coming together. Well, Fiona's written in to say, we have a large family and to make everyone feel part of things and to manage the workload, we give everyone a task well in advance and it has become a tradition. One child, now an adult, plans the quiz. One uncle prepares the roasties, another plans the carrots, another the gravy, Nana does her Swedish pudding, granddad lays the table and so on. It makes Christmas well. way more fun and everyone is invested in making it special. Well, that brings me nicely on to my next two guests

because with Christmas Day, just two sleeps away, many of us will now be opening our homes to wider family members or perhaps we will be the ones being hosted because Christmas can be a time with so many different people of all ages coming together under one roof. And with all the thought devoted to the gift of buying for the kids and the lunch menu, we did want to ask whether we think enough about the... experiences of our older relatives at this time of year. And of course we don't want to generalise

too much about what older guests can and can't do. But whatever their needs, how do we ensure that they feel included and involved in all the Christmas cheer? Well, to discuss this, I'm joined by Caroline Abraham's charity director at Age UK and Louise Blesard, a former nurse who runs a care service looking after older people in their homes. And Louise is the author of a new book for children and aiming to encourage them to take small, thoughtful actions to ensure grandparents feel included in the celebrations. Louise and Caroline, welcome to Women's Hour. Louise, let me start with you,

because what are the biggest challenges for older people joining a big family Christmas? I think the biggest challenges are it can be a very overwhelming day and sometimes older people aren't used to being in such a big family busy environment. So it's just about ensuring that you, have as much kind of downtime for them as possible. So creating kind of a quiet area for them to go and relax and spend time and just get away from the busyness if they want to. And then they can come back and join in the fun whenever they're ready. And you talk to your clients

about this. What sort of things do they tell you about this time of year? Are there specific things that worry them before they head out to visit relatives? I think usually it's to do with logistics they you know often they're really looking forward to the festive period but kind of the logistics of getting there and what they've got to take and planning presents and all those kind of things it can feel quite overwhelming and obviously everywhere's super busy at christmas so that just adds to the kind of worry of the whole day so i think anything that families can do to make that easier for people is super helpful um i think older people having as much information as possible about the day, about timings and all those kind of things can really help.

And of course, it's once you're there, you want to feel involved and included. Caroline, so many families on Christmas Day will have a few generations gathered together around the table. You know, do you have any tips or advice on how people can encourage these moments of connection, especially between the younger and older members of the family? Well, you're absolutely right. And these days, of course, there'll be lots of great grandparents who are in family-setting. things as well as grandparents. So you could have four generations altogether. That's a lot of people with lots of different life experience. And I think my biggest tip really for people, if they are

hosting older people this Christmas, is ask them when they come, or just before, what would make it special and lovely for them? And everyone's different, of course. So some people might say, well, I really want to see the King's speech at three o'clock. And other people would rather do anything than see the King's speech. So I think, you know, understanding that everyone's different. and just giving people the opportunity to say what will matter to them and what won't. I think for a lot of older people, people's appetites often aren't quite as great as they are when they're younger. So some people might be worried about being overwhelmed by the amount of food and just wanting it to be okay to have a smaller portion. Just simple little things like that can make all the difference.

Well, it's interesting you mentioned that because the other thing about Christmas is it is literally very noisy. I mean, it can be extremely chaotic, but there's a lot of noise involved. What about helping people who are hard of hearing? Well, yes, and I think, you know, sometimes that can manifest in lots of different ways. And even people who've got fantastic hearing aids may find that being in a space with lots of noise going on is very, is too much. And I think Louise's tip about offering people the chance to withdraw to somewhere that's a bit quieter is a really excellent one. Not only for those with hearing problems, but I think a particular usefulness to perhaps the people in that. situation as well. You did make me laugh about some people wanting to hear the King's speech and

some people not because I feel like that that is a different sort of argument and how can one resolve that might be an item for a different day. But Louise, tell us a bit more about the book you've written and what it's about and what are some of the suggestions in it. Sure. So we wanted to do something really lovely for Christmas and lots of our clients have grandchildren and really cherish and love that relationship. So we wanted to kind of bring that to life in a intergenerational book. It's also an interactive book. So it's a colouring book too for the children. And it's basically a story about Dolly the Daxson preparing the home for Christmas. And there's a mixture of practical tips in there and then also some more kind of feelings based tips. So from a practical

practical perspective. There's things like removing any trip hazards from hallways, you know, rugs and shoes and all those kind of things, having a good sturdy chair by the front door to help the older person or anyone, you know, sit down and take their shoes off after perhaps a bit of a walk to the house. Also at nighttime, I think that's a really important time to consider if you're staying in someone else's house, you know, having a nightlight, an easy route to get to the bathroom can be really, really helpful for people. And then we've included tips like encouraging the older person to bring their own traditions from Christmases from the past to the present day. So talk about what they used to do when they were children and share that with

their grandchildren and the younger people and incorporate those into the day. I think that can be a really nice way of connecting at different ages. And so the whole book is written from the perspective of Dolly. You said the family, the family dog. So it's, it's from the perspective of Dolly helping the family to get the home ready. So yes, there's lots of lovely illustrations of Dolly kind of carrying away slippers and things like that to try and be helpful. Well, as a massive dog lover, that really, that really cheers me up. I don't think my dog would be much help. But one of the things I wanted to mention is because we don't want to generalise that people are all the same or that older people are all the same. And, you know, my uncle,

My uncle Douglas is 93 years old and he's one of the most sociable, most active people I know. And it's really hard actually to see him at Christmas because he has so many different Christmas parties that he goes to with all his different friends near where he lives. So Louise, do you have any tips about not, you know, not patronising older family members? I think it's just getting people involved and really encouraging everyone to take part in the day no matter kind of how. independent or otherwise they may be. I really liked the tip from the lady who called in around giving everyone a job and that's now become a tradition. I think that's such a good thing to do. And yes, on the day, you know, you can, even if someone, you know, if someone was living with dementia perhaps, we can still involve them in things, ask them to help set the table, ask to

help prepare vegetables. So there's really stuff you can include and involve for everybody. And I mean, speaking of dementia, the NHS is urging people to look out for signs of dementia this Christmas because it is a moment where families might first realise that someone needs more support. Caroline, are there specific things that people can look out for? Especially if it's a family member you may only see occasionally. Yeah, that's a really good point. And certainly at age UK, we are quite often here from people in January who've hosted older relatives, maybe haven't seen them for a year, and have noticed quite a difference.

and are a bit worried of wondering what to do. So I think it's just about being alert to that, really. You may find perhaps people are not looking as steady on their feet. It's not just dementia. It's all kinds of physical health problems too, which might have accelerated over a year. But when it comes to dementia, obviously people who perhaps seem a bit disorientated,

who are a bit confused, just not quite the people that they used to be that you remember from a little while ago. And, you know, obviously do your best to try and support, those people to have as good a time as possible, no reason why they can't join in, just like everybody else. And there'll be other families where it's well known that there's a family member with quite advanced dementia. I know some people in that situation this year. And I know what's happened there is that the family has been prepared to know what to do to support that

person. So yeah, whoever you are, it's not a, it's not a reason not to host someone just because they are living with dementia. And we're talking about family members here, but, you know, a lot of people will want to support older neighbours in the wider community, especially over the festive period. And maybe they just don't know how to begin that conversation. Do you have any advice for them? Yeah, I think you just have to be prepared to ask. So, you know, I'm sure all around us, we all know people, older people who we might see a little bit, we might wave to in the street, but don't say a lot to. Just ringing the bell and inviting them in for a drink or a cup of tea, the worst thing that's going to happen is they're going to say, oh, I'm sorry, I can't do that

this Christmas I'm too busy. It doesn't cost you anything, but you might be making them an offer that they're not going to get from anyone else at all. So just being friendly and being prepared to make that offer, it's not very British, I know, but just being prepared to say to that sort of thing to someone might absolutely make their day and their Christmas. And Louise, just very briefly, you know, in terms of bringing people together, any particular films or board games or suggestions that will be great for a family of all different ages. Sure. So I really love Snowman, which is a classic animated story that it's told with no words. And I think that's beautiful because it really, it's very magical for children, but also it prompts fond memories

for older people. Thank you so much to both of you. Thank you. That was Caroline Abraham's and Louise Blesard. And Louise's book, Granny's Coming to Oz for Christmas, is out now. And you can hear more on Women's Hour tomorrow with Krupa Party. That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time. This is Dr Chris. And Dr. Zand here, and we are dropping in to let you know

about our new BBC Radio 4 podcast. In WhatsApp Docs, we are going to be diving into the messy, complicated world of health and wellbeing because it can be confusing, can't it, Zan't it? That's right, Chris.

The massive information out there can be contradictory, it can be overwhelming, and Chris and I get confused too. That's right. We get seduced by the marketing, the hype, the trends, so we want to be your guides through it. And I think it's fair to say, Zand, we are going to be getting personal. We're absolutely going to be getting

personal, Chris. What I want to do is bring in my own health dilemmas in the hope that we can help you with yours. Listen and subscribe to WhatsApp Docs on BBC Sounds.