Woman's Hour - 24/09/2025

Episode Date: September 24, 2025

Women's voices and women's lives - topical conversations to inform, challenge and inspire.

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Your idea of banking that's personal happens here. RBC, ideas happen here. Hello and welcome. Now, if you watch the women's rugby world cup, that's ongoing at the moment. You cannot miss Ruby Toey. The New Zealand rugby legend has been just as magnetic commentating on the game

as she has previously been as a player on the pitch. I'm very much looking forward to speaking to her right here in the Woman's Hour studio. Also today, if you have given birth and you're ready to share this morning, I'd like to hear about the following. Sex after childbirth. Some may be ready soon after to begin again, but others face trauma, pain or disinterest in sex for months or even years. And I'm wondering what it was like for you. Is there anything that you learned from your personal experience that you think might be useful for your fellow listeners who are postpartum and do not want to have sex with their partner? Well, you can text the problem. The number is 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email us through our website. For WhatsApp, for a message or a voice note, that number is 0-3-700-100-44. That discussion coming up.

Also, Juliette Stevenson, a star of British stage and screen. Juliet's performance in Land of the Living on at the National Theatre is remarkable. The play tells the story of children stolen by Nazis and the efforts to rescue them in the after. aftermath of World War II, but with unexpected consequences. We'll have Juliet in studio too. And we'll also have a conversation today about something that often goes unreported when children are violent and abusive towards their parents. Sometimes parents only contact the police when they're at crisis point and fearing for their safety.

So we'll hear what can be behind the violence this hour. But let me begin that there has been a renewed conversation. seen this over the past day. Regarding sex after childbirth, following an episode of the CBB's Parenting Helpline podcast, which tackled the topic of libido in that time after having a baby. The co-host, Holly Hagen Blyde, discussed how her sex drive dipped after the arrival of her son, and she started to avoid any sort of intimacy with her partner. It can be a confusing time when it comes to your relationship with your body and how you navigate those blurred lines between your roles as mother, partner, sexual being.

Well, I'm joined by two people now to discuss this. We have the journalist and author Nell Frizzell, who's written about her own experiences and also consultant obstetrician and gynecologist. That's Dr. Karen Joach, great to have both of you with us. Karen, I'm sure you've heard about this before. There's probably not one reason, but when you hear women don't want to have sex in the weeks or months after giving birth, what are you thinking might be going on? so it's such an important area thank god you've actually raised it and I're talking about it but I always look at women and first of all I'll think what's happening in physically because you always want to exclude that there's a physical cause and that can be women who have had sort of vaginal deliveries and also women have had caesareans for vaginal delivery sometimes they can be persistent issues and tears that haven't healed correctly and women are often dismissed when this occurs and said that everything looks okay because people are looking

on the outside. So I want to do a really good internal check, making sure there isn't anything such as groundination tissue or scar tissue that I can deal with very easily, actually, sometimes in the clinic. I want to check that there is an ongoing vaginal dryness as well, which can sometimes occur because of estrogen deficiencies. And then I want to ask them a little bit about their story, because we know the story can impact in how the pelvic floor muscles function. Sometimes women can become what we call hypotonic because of the perceived change in how their body has become deformed. Let me stop there for a minute.

I mean, that is fascinating, that the stories that we tell ourselves that the body is making note of them. Most definitely. And the body holds on to it. I know there is a big drive and people are starting to become aware about the body-mind connection, but it's a real thing. And we see it within the pelvis. So you can often see the muscles become hypercontractors.

because people are fearful of what has happened in that space and what that space looks like. So as a clinician, my job is always just to reassure women that they are normal, that, you know, the vagina is looking normal, it is healthy. And sometimes even just with that discussion, people start to release that tension and those fears and start to sort of embrace the fact that they are normal and are able to restart their relationship with their other halves. There have been guidelines for a check-up at six weeks, for example. I think I heard from a lot of women on a previous poet who was on here talking about that difficult line or guideline of six weeks that you're expected to bounce back in a way, which can be impossible for many.

But how are women checked at the moment after giving birth? after giving birth and are they given advice on intercourse? So I don't believe they are. It's an area which is often skirted over and looked at in the context of contraception. So there will be a contraception discussion are you returning to intercourse,

but not often really in-depth discussions. We know that women, I think the rates are huge, about 80 to 90% at three months, are still not back to their usual sexual intimacy. And at 12 months, it's around 40 to 50%. These figures are huge. I'm going to stop you there again because I think we don't hear those figures enough.

No, we don't. So 12 months after, a year after giving birth, often 40 to 50% are not where they feel they would have been previously. Not at all. And that's just not good enough. It's an important part of a relationship that links into social issues.

It links into body image issues. It can link into relationship, breakdown, divorce, there are a huge psychosocial impacts of this. And then that even impacts on the baby. If imagine that, you know, the parents aren't together. We're thinking about sort of childhood upbringing financial status. So it is huge. But the problem is because it's not spoken about, it's almost become a taboo subject where people don't think they can get help. I've seen women, even 10 years later, where we've been able to institute a 10 minute clinic treatment, which means they've been able to return to sexual function.

I mean, it's wonderful that can have that change with that clinic, but it is so frustrating the thought of that decade. Most definitely, and how much harm that can actually happen in that space. And I do believe that, you know, some of our changes in the NHS has obviously led to that. When I initially started train as a doctor, you know, 25 years ago, we used to do the six-week check so we could check and make sure there wasn't anything that was physically changed.

We could speak to women and let them understand that. anatomy was normal. I remember at my six-week check, the GP doing the check and saying, oh, doesn't look quite right down there. I think that you may need to have some surgery at some point, but maybe not now. Now, I've never required any surgery at all. I, you know, I was absolutely fine. But at that point in time, if I was not a gynecologist, I would think that something seriously was wrong with me. And these are also some of the things as healthcare workers we need to be very mindful about, about descriptions we have. I hear women talking about you know, when they're getting repaired, you know, people commenting that, oh, this is one of the worst I've ever seen, well, there's a lot of blood.

These are all things that linking to psychological impact, which then affect them long term in terms of sexual intimacy. When you're already in a very vulnerable position, 844, if you'd like to get in touch, if you want to open up, we are talking about it this morning. I want to bring in Nell. Lots of women have a long period of recovery. You recovered physically very quickly now. And perhaps started having sex earlier than some might expect, welcome and tell me a little bit about your experience. Yeah, well, I think I was, I don't want to use the word lucky because I think that sounds like a value judgment. I had a kind of birth similar to the one I was hoping for. I didn't tear. I didn't have an episiotomy.

I didn't have to have von Tous, any of those things. So my physical recovery was relatively quick. But I also think psychologically, talking about what Dr. Karen Joc was saying, saying the story I had told myself was that with my first pregnancy, certainly, it felt like I was going behind what I call a partial eclipse, but your true self is still there. You're still shining as brightly as you ever were. But so much of that energy and attention is being absorbed by your new baby,

especially with your first baby because it's all so new. And it was in intimacy and in sex, which I think is much broader than the sort of normal heterosexual kind of definition that we use. sex can be all sorts of intimacy with your partner, man, woman, other. I think in that I found a way to return to a self as I recognised as my prenatal self. There's a brilliant, the writer Clover Stroud talks about sex as this blank space that's the opposite of motherhood. It's somewhere that she can retreat to that is beyond grief and trauma and responsibility

and it's somewhere where she can just be a sensual person. And I do think if you are supported, if you're giving you. the right kind of medical attention, if you have just basic domestic support, mental health support, you can hopefully achieve that sort of, I would say, surrender in your body, that it's a new body, it's going to be different. You know, the idea that your erogenous zones and now sometimes a life support vessel for another person, I've got one right here, is a really strange sort of jump to get over. But we don't have to see it as the kind of dichotomy of the Madonna or the whore, we are somewhere that moves around that all the time all day.

And I think if you're lucky to have the kind of relationship that I have, you'll have rolling consent and you'll have a responsive partner. And they will understand that what was appropriate, two months ago is no longer appropriate. Maybe what you wanted 20 minutes ago, you don't want any more. And I think that that kind of openness, Lucian Holmes in her brilliant book, don't hold my head down, talks about how sometimes you need to slow down. Sometimes you need, you know, anyone with small children knows you can get touched out really easily. You know, you have a baby maybe on your chest, on your breast, on your lap, on your neck, on your face for hours on end.

The last thing you want is someone looking to you for kind of sexual stimulation. But you might want someone to just stroke your hair. You might want someone to just kiss you on the mouth, you know, and that can open the door to intimacy. So I was. Sorry, I just love that your baby came in to. give their say when you said being touched out. You've got big thoughts on this subject. It's like, eh, eh, eh, don't forget about me.

Sorry, now to interrupt you. No, no, not at all. And I mean, that's also the practical logistics, hey? Like, if you have a child or even more than one child, when are you going to be finding time for pleasure, for self, for intimacy, to return to your body? You know, it's a process and you need people around you. And I think one of the great shames of how we treat motherhood in this country and in our culture is that it's an individual lifestyle choice and you should be left to get on with it on your own.

And of course, you need people around you. And, you know, if you're lucky enough to have a partner, then they are key in that. I've got a friend who called himself the vice president of comfort when his partner had had a child, which I absolutely love. But it might mean, you know, having friends that you can open up to. And like Karen was saying, that 10-minute conversation with a consultant is, brilliant. But you might also, if you're lucky, have friends who you can say this is happening. Is this happening

for you? How are we all feeling? Is anyone at this stage yet? And I think that openness, I think, is to be celebrated. But also if you are a very personal, private person, don't feel like you have to be, it's not a race to be sexually active again.

People have began commenting in their droves since we opened it up. I want to read a couple of them. One, I wasn't examined at my six-week check. I'm 17 weeks postpartum and I'm quite scared to have a look down there, says one. I might get your thoughts on that, Karen, in just a moment.

Here's another. I suffered extreme birth trauma. I had a terrible infection. Had to have an operation to repair my vagina. And as I was waiting in the operating room, the doctor told me sex will never be the same again. And then proceeded to operate on me for two hours with no further information.

I was one week postpartum and nothing has felt the same since. I'm so sorry to hear that. Thank you for sharing that, whoever got in touch. Another, my son is now five. I have no interest in sex. My libido decreased since his birth. I've never regained it.

My partner and I are really intimate about once a year, sometimes less. Prior to having my son, I had a very high libido. I'm questioning whether the cause is my hormones, getting used to not having sex or whether I'm no longer attracted to my partner. I mean, these are heartbreaking conversations that should be happening. Karen, maybe you want to offer some reassurance to that lady who is, 17 weeks post-partum. Every single woman there.

To be honestly, you know, again, the first one, 17 weeks, you have had a check, do not be scared to look down there. One caveat I would say is that most of us don't look down there until we have a child. And so we've got an alter view what it should look like. And then we're like, you know, have a child. And we're there sitting down and standing up and looking at it. It doesn't look the same as it looks in the movies. And we think there's something wrong.

That, you know, so again, a little bit of a caveat around there. But you can go to your GP to ask for a check. You can still, you know, say that you haven't been sort of reviewed at six weeks. Ideally, that should be done. I know GPs are stressed for time. So that does affect the check oftentimes. The next lady, I will say, I think what you're describing is early primary resuterine. Some women never get that early resuturing. They're left to repair by secondary intention. That's what is called. And that breaks my heart. So you did actually have really good treatment. I believe what the doctor said was wrong, because in your case, those were.

women often recover really well as if they never had a breakdown or infection. That's what I see. The other thing is layer on your non-nutrition, get your collagen in, your omega, your hyaluronic acid, hydration, all these really good rich foods that help feed that sort of vagina. And if you're concerned, go back, ask for a check. The midwife can check you and refer onto the gynecology department because you should have been entitled to a check if you've had a complication postpartum. Birth trauma, there are great maternity trauma and loss services across the whole of London, up to a year post-childbirth. But even beyond that, if you feel that you've got issues, please see your doctor, get some psychological input and ask for a gynecology referral.

Hormones are definitely kick in, don't they now? I mean, we know that sleep deprivation reduces your dopamine, increases your cortisol, your estrogen can get affected. So it's absolutely fine to get a check. And then to ask if those things can be. sort of supported at Orchette for you. But there's lots that can be done. So please do not sit and think that's how it has to be. Karen, I think that'll be very reassuring to others and there's many more coming in as well.

We've obviously lifted the lid on something this morning as we speak. I want to thank Dr. Karen, Joash, also Nell Frizzell, who has written about her own experiences as well. Forgetting this conversation going. Thanks very much. 844 if you'd like to get in touch. Now, my next guest is the New Zealand rugby player, Ruby Toey. Ruby was the star of the last World Cup held in her

native New Zealand in 2021. Now she's regarded by Manny to be the star of the BBC's coverage of this year's World Cup held in England. She knows what it takes to win a World Cup final on home soil, something England are hoping to do on Saturday in front

of a sold air crowd at Twickenham against Canada. The tournament you might know has broken records across the board, reaching nearly 10 million TV viewers, more than three times as many tickets have been sold compared to the last World Cup, all of course reflecting that rapid rise of the profile of the women's game. Well, joining me in studio to discuss all of that as well as her own journey to the top of the sport is Ruby Toey. Welcome. Hello, my friend. There's a

wonderful intro. Did you ride it? You know, you have a lot of fans in the woman's our team. I'm not going to lie. And we've just loved watching you. What have you made of the World Cup so far from your perspective? Well, firstly, thank you so much for having me here. And for those of you at home who can't see it, this is the most beautiful studio I've ever been in on the radio. So our studio is kind of pink and red, very soft lighting. And it goes, Ruby, with the streak in your hair. He's did it for me.

Even the microphone covers are like red too. We wanted you to feel comfortable at home. You're a long way from home. But are you feeling at home in England? I feel really trendy being in the studio. Do you know what? The fish and chips in the coffee? have not grown on me at all

but cup of teas you guys are like the goats yeah well that's what women's our team runs on let's not kid ourselves it's the cup of teas here you know at home

you're kind of like oh mate can just leave tea bag in a bit longer and that but you guys here every single cup of tea I've had 10 out of 10 bro well I'm glad to hear it

and if you haven't seen Ruby on a Brighton bend but it's raining on her as she tries fish and chips it is well worth a watch has it been behind a microphone now

But how has it been watching the games from the sidelines? You know, I saw that video of you doing the Haka and the stands, your beloved black ferns that were there. Are you itching to get on the pitch? Oh, yeah. This World Cup has been, it's been amazing. Like, over 400,000 tickets sold to enjoy the live experience. I'm pretty sure the first week sold more tickets than, you know,

the last World Cup or the last World Cup that was here was in 2010. And just, I think, in like, the first hour, sold more tickets. than the whole tournament last time, you know. So it's been such an incredible, incredible experience. I think England and all the home nations can be super proud of running an enjoyable experience because it's not easy. It's not easy to run something like this, but it's just been flawless, but it's been so, so amazing. And, yeah, 100%.

Like, watching is, like, so not as fun as playing, you know. I love pressure, I love all the things. I love people screaming at you, you know, I was always... Although that can happen when you're commentating as well. Actually, yeah, I was commenting at the semi-final last weekend and the Aussies know how to ruck us up and they were doing that.

Ozzy, Ozzy, Ozzie, ooi, oi, while we were playing. They weren't even playing, you know, so that was still racking me up. I wanted to go yell it back, but... No, it's been a fantastic tournament. Obviously, real gutter our girls went out and I do get itchy feet every time I watch. But it's a massive, massive occasion this weekend for you like. It sure is.

I have loved it, I have to say, watching it all through and watching you as well as I've mentioned. And I want to talk about you because it's important that we understand what gets elite sports women to the top and how they can at times turn adversity into strength. You had memoir, straight up, about the difficult upbringing that you had.

You witnessed abuse and drug use. But you say your experiences shaped you into the resilient person that you are now. How? Yeah, absolutely. I think we grow up thinking things are hard or things are easy but at the end of the day that's what makes you you and that's all I knew

so I think it's important we all understand we've all got a story we've all got stuff we've been through and it's not the cards you've been dealt right is how you play the game and I saw what bad decisions and bad feelings lead to in life like I saw it firsthand gets you to the end of the road so I was kind of like well then what is good choices

lead to? What is love lead to? What are all those feelings? Like, you know, as a kid, I was just curious because I didn't know where that led. And I just, I pulled on the, on the rope that led to bad things. And I was like, did it really hit the rock bottom edge? So I kind of was like, okay, then I'm going to, there's a couple of people in my life that have actually been really kind and horrible situations. I'm just going to pull on this rope. And I just, you know, keep bloody pulling, kept in to a couple of Olympics, we'll cut, you know, mate, I'm still pulling to as they, with curiosity about where love can get you in life and choosing love in the most adverse situations. And, mate, I'm so pulling. And look at me. I'm in this beautiful

love, rose gold lit up studio, you know, and we ain't even at the end yet. So we're not even close. I know you talk about your mum, Marion, I understand you call Superwoman. She escaped an abusive relationship and has been a huge source of strength. We love to give a shout out to the mum's here. Yeah, no, massive love to my mum. was obviously going through a lot because writing a book you know you talk well I like to talk to everybody and every story and I was like

mum I really want to tell the story and she obviously had feelings like oh maybe I did the wrong thing by my daughter and she felt kind of bad but we sat down and talked about it and I actually sent her the first copy of the first part of the book which is about my upbringing and I was never going to print it if she wasn't okay with it

like mom have a read and she was a bit like oh I really don't know and I was like pull out as many chapters as you want, Mum, like, you know, this is our story, as our life, I'm proud of it, but I'm not going to do it if you're not comfortable. And she read it, and she, for the first time, got to step into my shoes as a young child and see what I saw. And she had no idea how much she actually inspired me. And when she read the story, she sent me this message straight away.

She read it in like a couple hours, all the chapters and was like, you have to tell the story. And I was like, I do, Mom. Like, you are a superhuman, and there are so many women out there who need to hear someone who was, you know, she'd break up with them and then she'd get back, break up with them to get back and in New Zealand, on average, an abusive relationship takes seven times to leave them, on average. She's something like 27, you know?

So she thought it was a bad thing. I was like, no, this is perfect. This is the perfect story to tell mum. We got through it, you got through it, you're the strongest person I've ever met in my life. And so she understood, from a child's point of view, she made the right decision. And as scary as it was, we got through it.

And, yeah, no, she's pretty mean. Like, I live a great life. That must have been really quite something. for her to read it. It's very evocative. I can imagine it. You have your who was your little girl who is now this woman looking back. I'm just looking at what are you wearing around your neck?

So this is called a Pōnamu in Māori culture which is our native culture in New Zealand or Taunga and I think Pownamu is the type of stone it's a necklace. So it's like a rectangle stone. Oh you're right. They can't see it?

They can't see it? Not yet. You're not on the telly now Ruby Sorry, it's a rectangle It's a black rope around my neck It's a beautiful green Kind of like gemstone But this poinamas You can only get in the beaches

Of the South Island of New Zealand And it's protected by Māori So you've got to come all the way In New Zealand to get it But the word that Māori used for this Is Tonga which actually means treasure So this was gifted to me After my 20th cap for the black ferns

So this is actually my rugby time And I'm Simon, so we don't really get these a lot. You know, this is from the milder people. So I really, really treasured this. No one's asked me there. I noticed it the other day. You had it on when you were commentating the other day. Oh, wow.

Yeah, and I was like, okay. And now I've seen it this morning. So thank you for that. But you have achieved so much with the black firms, right? Olympic gold, silver, lifted the last World Cup trophy on home soil. I mean, what is it like to be part of one of the most famous women's sports teams in the world? mate it's been a journey eh it's been such a journey and

I'm super proud of our old black brothers you know the invincibles tour 1920s come over here and the fellas have a massive history but to be a part of so I played for New Zealand the last 14 years and the change in the growth has been absolutely and you've been part of that

it's been crazy but it's been pretty unreal and like I think contextually it's pretty important to understand sevens and 15s neither were paid neither were professional but as soon as sevens was in the Olympics. It was this huge catalyst for women's rugby to go,

we got him. They have to put us on TV now, don't they? It's Olympics. So, you know, the Sevens, it's not like it's our favorite or our anything like that. It was just a crucial part of our history and our context to go professional. And obviously, the Sevens was super successful.

Now the payment has now come to the 15s. And now the Black Friends was our last Black Jersey to go pro at that last World Cup. So it's been a massive change, growth, everything. Because I remember seeing you on Instagram and you always give a shout out to the other teams as well and kind of to the work that they're doing to try and get there.

For example, you've Canada in the finals, but they've had to crowd fund their way to get there. And I think when I heard that, I was like, what? Yeah, look, it happened in the Tokyo Olympics when, if you're wondering, you know, one gold there. Hi. Yeah, right. Ireland always goes, yeah, right.

But like Great Britain was the same You know We like literally a few of us donated to that But this is the thing Yeah I have to stop people and let them know People on the opposing teams Were donating to try and get their rivals To the tournament

I mean if that's not sisterhood I don't know what is That's historic right That's in Norman's Rugby's blood The first Rugby World Cup 1991 England actually were like We'll help pay for everyone And then they rang everyone

Oh sorry they faxed everyone They didn't have phones They said sorry we can't pay and all the teams are like, don't worry, we're still going to come. We're going to fundraise. So it's a can-do attitude. If you want to find it, go to your local woman's rugby team. But, yeah, look, Canada's situation, though, is quite special

because all the other nations, usually there's a male system already set up in that sport. Canada's nothing. I know. So they're changing their whole country, bro. Yeah. Because New Zealand and Ireland, obviously, that's kind of, you know, we have the history. It's the lads first, and then the women came along. But with Canada, that's...

That's a whole new ball game. Literally, like, there's no men system to lean on. They've had to go, you know, there's hardly a club system, you know, nothing like that. They all play in the PWR, 15 of the Rugby World Cup Canadian players play over here nine months of the year or as much as they can. So it's like they're building foundations from nothing for their whole country. So what about Saturday? I mean, what's going to happen? Yeah, look.

This is, guys, guys. I should say, actually, let me for people who haven't been following it closely. you've been missing out if you haven't. New Zealand's playing France for third place and then it's England and Canada in the final. It's been amazing, I think. Scotland have been unreal. They really turned heads. South Africa really gave New Zealand a run in the quarterfinals.

There's been huge, huge moments throughout this tournament. The top four were always predicted to be Canada, England, France, New Zealand. So, you know, almost upsets, but not quite yet. Top four made it through and then massive upsets last weekend in terms of Canada. you know absolutely blowing us off the park which hasn't happened in a long time you were there no it wasn't there i was watching you watching that i know yeah yeah so i've been watching i've caught an awful lot of them but on television i'm afraid not in the stands but been quite

a bit sold out yeah and not only the ticket selling out but the tv viewership is just as important like we're breaking all sorts of records over there too so everybody turning is just as important and then england played france and i must tell you like at half time there was two points in it one conversion kick in it it was extremely close it was so super close so both games would just draw dropping that's exactly what you wanted to World Cup Canada's Canada

look if I'm going to break it down Canada's coaches tactically just took ours for a lesson you know like it was just a crazy tactical battle really really proud of Canada actually because their game has developed over these last few years the last two times we played Canada two times ago they won

the last time we drew only just after full time. So it was kind of like this was Canada's moment, right? Come out the blocks and show us. Now the huge pinnacle, the absolute climatic finish of this tournament,

is going to be England at home playing your guys rugby's very traditional, bro. Nobody does a line out more like you guys. Nobody, you know, the territory game, everything that rugby is based upon, the English Red Brozers have been a mass class at it for years. I think 31 games on the bounce now. Last time was the last World Cup final way.

We can talk about that for as long as you want. but this weekend and then they are playing Canada who do you know what they actually remind me of us last World Cup they're playing this fast footy they're attacking the clear and obvious space so it's a real battle

of two very different types of rugby and it's almost like effective traditional proven rugby versus this new fast you know fast ruck super red maple leaf rugby and if that is not a reason to tune in

to see England take on Canada or Canada take on England in Twickenham on Saturday I don't know who else can convince you it's BBC 1, it's eye players from 3pm Ruby will be there guiding us through also mentioned New Zealand, France that's 1230pm

and of course you can listen BBC Radio 5 live from 345pm just as you go out the door BBC has been running the series you know the women's summer sport called names will be made give me one name that you think has been made during the Rugby World Cup

can I give you two Go on. Sophie DeGurdy and Meg Jones. Okay. Oh, yeah, no way. I'm not going to get you started on Meg Jones. We'll be here for another half hour. So nice to have you in.

Thank you for joining us in studio. Nothing but love. Appreciate you guys so much. And thank you, BBC, for your amazing and pickable phenomenal coverage. We love it and appreciate it. Ruby Toey. Thank you for your messages that are coming in,

8444-4-4 if you would like to get in touch. Now, when we talk about, or perhaps even think about violence within the home. We can assume sometimes that we're referring to violence within the adult couple or violence from a parent directed at a child. However, another form of family violence, which receives far less attention and is arguably the most hidden form of abuse within the home, it's known as CAPFA, child and adolescent to parent violence and abuse. It often goes unreported, many parents only contacting the police when they're a crisis point and fearing for their safety.

Well, today the charity Action for Children have released a report with insights from their parenting support services. They suggest there's been an uptick in need for support on this particular issue. I'm joined now by Martha Hampson, Senior Policy Advisor with Action for Children, which offers support to parents in these situations. And Dr. Nikki Rutter, who's assistant professor in the Department of Sociology at Durham University and also Child Parent Violence Researcher. Welcome to both of you, lovely to have you with us. Dr. Ritter, let me begin with you.

for those that aren't familiar with these situations or circumstances, what are some of the examples of what you've come across in your work? So my work I predominantly look at the early indicators. So a lot of my work is with much younger children than you would expect. So you're talking about families

where a dad has woken up through the night with a nine-year-old child putting a Stanley knife through his leg. we're talking about very distressed eight-year-old children ripping off curtain poles and assaulting their mothers with them. I've worked very recently with a mother who had called the police 19 times on her daughter before there was any kind of intervention because she was barricading herself and her younger child in the bedroom every single night. So it's quite significant.

families talking about dislocations, broken bones, broken ribs, and often having to take the child who has caused the harm into hospital with them, because there's just a lack of support or recognition really for how really significant some of this harm can be. And very distressing, of course, to hear some of those specific examples that you give and some graphic as well. Let me bring you in here, Mark. What are you finding with the report that I mentioned? Thank you very much for having us on this morning.

So Action Children runs a service called Parent Talk, which is a free digital national service that parents can use to get advice and guidance and also have one-to-one confidential chats with a trained parental coach. And exactly, as Nikki said, we hear a really wide range of behaviour that parents are experiencing, violent and aggressive behaviour, as you said. also children using threatening language, abusive language, which parents can sometimes find almost as distressing as the violent behaviour. And our report looked at the past three years of parents

who've come to the parent taught service to get help with what they're experiencing. And what we found was a very clear link between children exhibiting this kind of behaviour and those children having send, say special educational needs or disabilities or mental health issues, which weren't being well supported. So parents often described this pattern of behaviour for when children were much younger and needs had been identified, but they weren't able to get the support that they needed. And then they're escalating as children became older. And I'm wondering, Nicky, for example, is it one-off violent outbursts or prolonged patterns of behaviour?

We wouldn't really consider it fitting cap-far and you often wouldn't see parents, seeking support unless it's quite sustained. So those kind of parents contacting action for children and other services, they've often been experiencing this for a very long time before they're seeking support. But it is, I'm sure, such a difficult thing to come forward and look for help with, Martha. What do you hear? It really is. Parents' thoughts was often about a sense of shame that they have, that this is happening to them and their child.

They worry about being blamed for their child's behaviour. They also worry about their child being perceived as someone who is violent, that not giving the whole picture of their child and what their child needs. Parents often quite worried about calling the police. They worry about criminalising their child. They worry about disrupting the relationship they have with their child as well. So there are many barriers to parents being able to access the right support. And of course, safety is a big part of this for the parent.

And also there could be other children in the house. Is there steps that they take or that you advise? I mean, the first thing we'd say to any parent contacting parent talk service is to make sure that they and their children are safe. So if they're at risk of harm to phone 999, we would then talk them through making a plan for when those situations happen. So what can they do in the household? Can they make sure their child is somewhere safe?

They might need to stay with their child. Their child might prefer they're not there. And then we talk about how to keep their child calm, how to talk about it with their child. Parents often say that their children are themselves really distressed and upset about what they have done, that they've had these violent episodes or what they've said to a parent. And then we'll think about the package of support that parent might need and we can make referrals if necessary. But we do really see that a key issue is that the system of send support of mental health support, support just isn't there at the moment for parents.

We do have a statement from the Education Secretary, Bridget Philipson, who said there are deep-rooted issues that have plagued the send system for too long. I'm continuing to listen closely to families, teachers and experts as we put together plans to transform outcomes for every child would send, building on the work that we've already started. We need to make sure that evidence-based support is available as routine without a fight for every child who needs it from significant investment in places for children would send to improve teacher training to our best start family hubs in every.

local area. And as we've spoken about before on this programme, we expect the government to release white paper on schools and send this autumn. What would you like to see included, Martha? The white paper will be a real opportunity for the government to reform the sand system in England. Obviously, sand provision is devolved across the four nations and this will apply only to England. We really are urging the government to focus on three key things. One is making sure that this doesn't all fall on schools. It's a school's white paper, but it should look at the full system of sand in England and make sure that schools have that network of services that they can refer into. And also, some of the children with the most complex needs are not in school, so they

need ability to access services that don't have to go through a school route. Secondly, we want the government to really pay attention to the experience of children and families through this process. Lots of families are understandably very worried about what these changes will bring. So we want to make sure there's a proper system of consultation and understanding how these changes are affecting families that roll out. And thirdly, the sort of elephant in the room is cash. There needs to be real investment both in immediate creating capacity in the system and also the long-term reform. So it can be really a system that gives every child the support they need at the earliest possible opportunity. And we'll see what the white paper brings.

But do you understand why there might be an uptick in looking for support? I think it's a combination of factors. I think partly over the last 10 years, we have seen a real lack of provision in the Senate system in England, in the mental health system. There is a huge increase in demand. There's also parents talk a lot about the transition from primary school to secondary school as well,

that that can be a really key moment where children's behaviour can escalate. And primary schools are often able to be much more, inclusive and much more flexible in how they includes children, how they put provision in place. And then that can often fall away quite sharply when children move over to secondary school. So we also want to look at how families can be better supported through that transition period as well. And that being a really key moment of development for children as they move up to secondary school. Back to you, Nikki. We know that parents can fear judgment and their parenting, for example,

if they reported some even fear having their child removed from them. How can we destigmatise the issue? I think one of the best things we can do is exactly kind of what your programme's doing today, I suppose, is really raising awareness, ultimately that this is not, I wouldn't say necessarily a common problem, but it's not an unusual problem. kind of research is finding that in adoptive families, we're looking at between 60 and 80% of parents. Within families where there are send children,

we're looking at well over half, kind of in the 60% range. In general community samples, you've got anything from 15% up to 65%. So lots of families are experiencing this. It isn't reflective on the parenting per se, but rather than the complexities of being a child In the modern day, the complexities of being a family, of increasing numbers of children within the send system who can have quite complex needs. So I think one of the biggest things is

sharing stories, ultimately sharing reports, doing the research, having these public conversations about what responsibility do we have? Because this is very much a social problem, not a family problem. So I think we all have a bit of a responsibility to acknowledge that and ensure that families feel heard. I want to thank both of you for speaking to us this morning. We

had Dr. Nikki Rutter and also Martha Hampson. Thanks to you both. And I should say if you have been affected by any of the issues raised, please do see the BBC Action Line for Information and Support Services. Now, thank you. In case you haven't heard already, we do have

some new, exciting plans. Here on Woman's Hour, we're launching a brand new series of conversations. The Woman's Hour Guide to Life. It is available from this coming Sunday, the 28th of September, only on BBC Sounds. So if you feel time poor, you're juggling priorities or you're simply swamped by conflicting advice on how to move forward, then this is for you. So series one is going to focus on the juggle. There are many jugglers among us. Across six episodes, you're going to hear expert insight and honest conversations on topics like maintaining.

Friendships, despite the crammed schedules. Also, how to turn getting older into your superpower and pursuing ambition without burnout, which is a topic I really want to hear from you about. Have you experienced burnout? Or do you feel perhaps that you're heading in that direction? Maybe you were a leader carrying a lot of responsibility. Maybe you were an employee, deeply dedicated to your work

and eager to progress in your career. Did you find yourself needing to step away from that? career that you had imagined for yourself. Well, I'd love to hear from you if you have experience of it or perhaps you feel you're hitting that way. The way to get in touch, all the usual ways. 844 on text on social media at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website. And you can listen to the Woman's Hour Guide to Life Sunday, Woman's Hour, in the podcast feed and only on BBC Sounds. I hope you will. Tune in to us for that one. Now, I want to move on to my next guest. the prolific actor, Juliet Stevenson.

We have watched her on stage, film, television, prominent roles, of course, truly madly deeply. I know people still come up and talk to you about that one, Bended like Beckham, sequel in the making there. And across the Royal Shakespeare Company and the National Theatre, it is at the National Theatre where Juliet takes the lead in a new play, The Land of the Living. She plays Ruth, a UN relief worker in post-war Germany,

trying to reunite children stolen by the Nazis from East. Eastern Europe with their families. With one particular child, Thomas, it becomes a very personal mission. Welcome, Juliet. And what a powerful performance. I was lucky enough to see you last week. Oh, great. You came.

I came and I loved it. It is so gripping. It was a story I didn't know about at all, I have to say. Your character, Ruth, is not based on a real person. But these are real historical events that children were taken. Oh, completely. Actually, yes, it was a program called Labensbourne, which was not known about until after the war, which the Nazis had sort of developed and through which they stole thousands and thousands of children from all over Eastern Europe, so Ukraine, Russia, Poland, etc. And brought them into Germany.

And the most disgusting thing is that they tested them to see if they would grow up. They were stolen for their Aryan features. Some was tiny children. And they were sort of tested to see if they would develop and look like Aryan, you know, meet that kind of Nazi ideal, as it were. And then those who passed the tests were sort of parceled out to members of the Nazi party, largely families who either couldn't have children or who wanted more children. And those who didn't pass the tests were killed. It is unbelievably shocking story and strangely not that well known still. No, I had never heard of it.

The playwright is David Lann. It's based the character, your character, partly on the journalist and historian Gita Sereni, who worked for the UNRRA, which was the United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration in Southern Germany after the end of the war. Was it an aspect of history you were familiar with? Not at all. No. I mean, you'd think by now that we would have, you know, all the hideous, sort of, Nazi history would be popular knowledge, as it were, would be general knowledge.

But no, I hadn't come across this at all. I think David Lann and Stephen Daughery, our wonderful writer and director, came across the story a long time ago. And they got to know Gita Serini, who had herself been an UNRWA worker during the war, very young woman, just like my character. Yeah. And been sort of part of a group of people who sort of discovered this and then included it in their mission, which was to try and identify these children and get them. out of those German homes and back, if possible, to their families if those families had survived. You know, I couldn't help, but when I was watching it, think of the parallels of a story we've covered here many times,

which is the situation in Ukraine where up to 20,000 Ukrainian children have been forcibly taken to Russia. And of course, Ukraine has campaigns to try and have them returned. Russia says instead that they are putting them its humanitarian mission to save the Ukrainian children from the war. I mean, it's unspeakable. I was looking at this when I was researching the play. I mean, I think 20,000 is a conservative figure.

I think it may well be in the hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian children. And I was also reading that the Russians have also been testing them, similar to the Nazis. They've been testing them for sort of health, their health data, as it were. And they've also been Russifying them, as indeed the Germans did in the war. they not, I mean, they sort of Germanified that, so the children had their original languages beaten out of them. They were taken first to sort of camps where they were Germanified, as it were, before they were then put into German homes. And apparently that is also what the Russians are doing now. There has been that word re-education use, and I can't corroborate, of course, the details on testing, as you mentioned there, Juliet.

But what I think also, because a child, obviously, young, goes somewhere else, there can be, It's such a complex action to even try and return or rescue a child when they have become settled in a new home. Totally. I mean, it's a fascinating, I mean, on the face of it, of course, you would think it's straightforward. You take the child away from their, you know, their adoptive parents and you take them back. But of course, it's extremely complex as our play explores because these children were uncomfortable, well-off homes. They were very, very loved. They were, you know, some of them had no memory of their original identities because they were taken. so tiny. Some were infants. And, you know, maybe those parents had died or maybe they were

extremely poor. So suddenly children who were returned might find themselves, you know, used to living in comfortable conditions now back in a country where they knew nobody and so on. And ripped away from their parents as they knew. As they knew them. So it was a very huge moral issue, which is a lot of what is explored in the play. And then there's the additional thing in the play, which is my character kind of, there's one little child she cannot identify. and she becomes more and more attached to him, which was sort of against the rules. But she kind of just grows to love him very, very much

and has a strong desire to adopt him herself. But anyway, that story also is part of the narrative. And part of that, you are playing the character Ruth at 20 and at 65. And I mean, we can't take our eyes off you. But I'm wondering, switching those ages within that stage, mental gymnastics to save the least. Yeah. And physical.

Yeah, it's been, I mean, it's an absolutely fantastic opportunity. Well, because, you know, in a way, I have this theory that we never lose the ages that we've been. We're a bit like trees. Oh, I believe that completely. We grow an extra ring like a tree does. But we know that five-year-old, the 10-year-old, the 20-year-old, my children would agree with this. You know, the child is still, you know. Within us.

And so it's an incredible joy to be allowed to play 20 again at my age. Very seductive. But it has been a challenge, but I mean, you know, I love a challenge. It's a long play as well. And there's just, apart from the mental gymnastics, I mean, there is the physical and vocal and memory. I mean, it's really astounding to watch you in action. Young Thomas, that we're talking about, one of the children that you have an affinity with, he's 10 in the play as young kid

and I found it quite poignant that you were younger than him when you went to boarding school just nine I was and I read you know that you often draw on the experience of Sunday nights and really missing home

to do your work as an actor and I could see how this play would tap very much into that but I don't know whether you used it that's really interesting I didn't think about that actually I didn't think about that parallel at all except that I think that strong sense of being not with your real family

and being many sort of thousands of miles away from them which I was to start with from the age of 9 and 11 then my parents came back to England although I stayed boarding but yeah I think that that sense of being removed from your family home and losing touch with that familial way of life and with that support system that home offers has absolutely stayed with me. I mean, I also had a great time.

I had a great education at this school and great friends. But I, yeah, it certainly left a pool of sort of longing and sadness and homesickness which has never quite gone away. That experience of Sunday nights, I found that so, I don't know, heartbreaking to think of this little girl who would particularly feel pain on a Sunday night. I suppose because Sundays were not so structured. So you were kind of, you know, there was that sort of vacant time in which thoughts of home would come back. Otherwise, our days were so busy and evenings.

But on Sundays, there was a sort of sense that Sundays are a day for home, you know. Because there is very much a theme of belonging within the play, I feel, and also of motherhood. That's true. And also, you know, an army background like mine, when people say, where do you come from? I never have an answer because, of course, we moved on every two years all around the world. so I don't actually come from anywhere, which is kind of an odd thing, you know, not to have any particular sense of identity with a place.

But very helpful, I would imagine, perhaps, with this play as we get into that head. There are multiple languages being spoken and translated on the stage. I was wondering, did you already speak German? Tiny bit. I mean, one of our postings was in Germany, twice, actually. We were posted in Germany, but English bases in Germany tend to be very sort of self-contained

and they don't mingle much, or they didn't with German life. But I mean, I learnt German at school a little bit, but no, I pretty much had to learn it for this show. But of course, we have three German speakers, and wonderful Tom Blashejo, who plays opposite me as the older version of the little boy, who is German. He's come from Berlin and that wonderful, wonderful company of actors who I adore, just amazing.

And most of them are Eastern European, several Ukrainian actors, and one or three of them are German speakers. It is such a cast and such a huge production. I don't want to let you go before speaking also about the Israel-Gaza conflict.

You've been outspoken on it. You've been to many protests yourself, including against the BBC's news coverage at times. I had Annie Lennox sitting in the seat that you're sitting in yesterday. And I asked her what the role of the artist is in activism.

And I want to ask you the same thing. To speak out. to speak out in the face of what is a horrendous, you know, horrendous, well, it's a genocide in my view, in many, many people's view. And increasingly it's a global view that Israel is becoming a pariah state and is, you know, committing itself in an attempt to annihilate the Palestinian people, which it will never do. But I have never lived through anything like this. And I just felt very early on, of course, I deeply, deeply horrified. by what happened on October the 7th,

but what has happened since October the 7th, I have never witnessed anything like it, and I felt quite early on. I have to use my profile and platform for this because there was silence around it. There was silence. And with genocide, because it is such a controversial term, as you allude to there,

officially not a genocide. The International Court of Justice is deciding that, however, it may take a number of years. Last week, people may have seen, However, a United Nations Commission of Inquiry said that Israel has committed genocide against Palestinians in Gaza. It said it was the strongest and most authoritative UN finding to date, but it doesn't officially speak for the UN. And Israel's foreign ministry you may have seen rejected the report, calling it distorted and false. But as an artist, do you think all artists have that responsibility?

Over this issue, I do. I absolutely do. I think this is the issue. I mean, there are many issues of our time. and Ukraine, there are many, many wars in the world, but I think what we are seeing is ethnic cleansing on a scale that we have not witnessed. I haven't in my lifetime. I absolutely do think it is the responsibility of the artists to speak up.

I mean, our job is to speak to the human condition in whatever form that is through dance or music or poetry or acting, writing, whatever it is. And I can't imagine at the moment making work, which is not connected to a world, which we are seeing, you know, spin so violently and so rapidly into a kind of corrupt, chaotic. It's terrifying.

I think everybody is aware at the moment that with Trump in America, you know, just destroying the legal structures, democracy, you know, there is a really increasing need for the artist to speak up. And we do see, of course, with these issues that they are contentious and views on various sides.

As Juliet, you will have come up against previously, of course, but I want to thank you so much coming into Women's Hour. I do need to let people know The Land of the Living is now playing at the National Theatre into the 1st of November 2025 called a powerhouse of a performance and I think that sounds like a pretty much spot-on review.

I want to let you know Anita is with you tomorrow. She's speaking to the novelist. Oyinka Breitwate for her new novel. Do you remember my sister, the serial killer, that great book? Well, it's the sequel to that. Also, we will look at the rise of book burning in the USA

and the librarians on the front line and I just want to read one or two messages that you're talking about sex after childbirth after I had my first child my sex drive was enhanced I was desperate for intimacy with my then-husband but he had a problem making love to the vessel that had produced his child

he was turned off oh my goodness all the stories that came in thank you so much for sharing them we'll be back with you right here tomorrow on Women's Hour that's all for today's Woman's Hour join us again next time in the future will your taxi fly I'm Greg Foote, host of the BBC Radio 4 show and podcast Slice Bread, and now, Doe.

In Doe, we explore future wonder products that might rise to success and redefine our lives. Might delivery drones make popping to the shops a thing of the past? On-demand drone delivery could be absolutely huge. Will we really let our cars do the driving for us? If you say this whole driving thing, it's the thing that's only ever meant for humans. That's obviously for the birds. Each episode, I sit down with entrepreneurs and experts to discuss What's what today's everyday technology may look like tomorrow.

Find out on Do. Listen first on BBC Sounds.